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Tournaments / Re: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord

« Last post by Random Consonant on Today at 08:57:19 AM »

I don't know if I agree with how the stat topic handles the damage/AP issue but I do know that I have no particular desire to argue about it one way or another, especially when I'm doing this while half-asleep.

Anyways I'm taking the harsh approach and using the damage average that fully factors in the cav vs infantry damage bonus.  Yes, this makes Alain more disgusting in a duel than he already is.

Alain vs. Rubicant - Rubicante might not OHKO but it so doesn't matter.
Alain vs. Sierra - Lord, even if he didn't immune ID he'd just OHKO to me taking the stat topic at face value.
Alain vs. Emily
Alain vs. Celes - Partial ITD on Spinning Edge helps but I don't think it's enough off the top of my head.  Could be mistaken though.
Alain vs. Yuri - Huh, yeah, Yuri barely survives a Spinning Edge even after the cav bonus, and I'd bet he can scam his way out from there.
Alain vs. Nailah - idk, Alain's hell to take down with defense subject physicals, even ones that are occasionally backed by triple laguz royal strength stats, and "occasionally" in this case means sub-25%.  The counters though...
Alain vs. Lashiec - So Lashiec 4HKOs Alain.  That's not gonna work out too great in the face of Lean Edge, I'd think.
Alain vs. Alena - Alena so doesn't crit fast enough to pull this out.
Alain vs. Chaz - Alain really likes having that sword huh.
Alain vs. Artea - Spinning Edge is horrible murder to me which saves me from having to consider any potential IP hype.
Alain vs. Eirika - Honestly Eirika's just not that impressive in this matchup
     
Amalia vs. Rubicant
Amalia vs. Sierra
Amalia vs. Emily
Amalia vs. Celes
Amalia vs. Yuri
Amalia vs. Nailah
Amalia vs. Lashiec - Think he just scrapes an OHKO here, even if he doesn't it so doesn't matter.
Amalia vs. Alena
Amalia vs. Chaz
Amalia vs. Artea - Either I take Amalia's abysmal initative as first turn speed and Artea instadoubles her off the bat under my revised SD assumptions and 2HKOs, or I take Unicorn Overlord speed as average forever and Artea dies to the autocrit.  More inclined to take the former view considering that low initiative is, in fact, not all that great to have ingame.
Amalia vs. Eirika
     
Dinah vs. Rubicant
Dinah vs. Sierra
Dinah vs. Emily - Probably.  She just gets so many swings.
Dinah vs. Celes - Vanish.
Dinah vs. Yuri
Dinah vs. Nailah -
Dinah vs. Lashiec
Dinah vs. Alena
Dinah vs. Chaz - Explode checks Mental, not evasion, and I'm 99% certain pure status screws over thieves and werefoxes as much as anyone else.
Dinah vs. Artea - Um Artea immunes poison with the armor that gives him MP healing and so Dinah is pretty much incapable of killing him ever.
Dinah vs. Eirika -

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Tournaments / Re: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord

« Last post by Pyro on May 16, 2024, 05:09:06 AM »

Alain   vs.   Rubicant: Toasty.
Alain   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): Lean Edge keeps him afloat.
Alain   vs.   Sierra: ID immune. 2HKOs.
Alain   vs.   Emily: Evasion. ITD damage.
Alain   vs.   Celes: Vanish. Isn't OHKOd.
Alain   vs.   Yuri: Isn't OHKOd and does his thing.
Alain   vs.   Nailah: Gotta figure FE10 super skills.
     
Alain   vs.   Lashiec: 75% magic damage... Alain's mdef and HP are great though, and he gets 4 actions to Lashiec's 3 and has the evade and speed...
Alain   vs.   Teepo: not physicals.
Alain   vs.   Jessica: Speed damage and durability.
Alain   vs.   Alena
Alain   vs.   Chaz: Lean Edge keeps him in and threatens a KO into Spinning Edge.
Alain   vs.   Artea: Artea's IPs might matter. Although a crit threatens him.
Alain   vs.   Eirika: Her evade is a problem but Cavalry Slayer is mean here and Noble Guard is really mean. His speed is very high if that staves off a double.
     
     
Amalia   vs.   Rubicant: magic. Not OHKOd.
Amalia   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): magic.
Amalia   vs.   Sierra
Amalia   vs.   Emily: ignores evade.
Amalia   vs.   Celes: vanish first
Amalia   vs.   Yuri: magic assault?
Amalia   vs.   Nailah: assuming Nailah doesn't one round.
     
Amalia   vs.   Lashiec
Amalia   vs.   Teepo
Amalia   vs.   Jessica
Amalia   vs.   Alena
Amalia   vs.   Chaz: ID
Amalia   vs.   Artea: OHKOs.
Amalia   vs.   Eirika
     
     
     
Dinah   vs.   Rubicant: Rubicant can't punch through can he.
Dinah   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): Marcello has the actions to punch through. But can he.
Dinah   vs.   Sierra
Dinah   vs.   Emily:
Dinah   vs.   Celes: Vanish.
Dinah   vs.   Yuri: I think
Dinah   vs.   Nailah: she didn't have Nihil
     
Dinah   vs.   Lashiec
Dinah   vs.   Teepo: Triple Strike is... Inaccurate. But he has a lot of time....
Dinah   vs.   Jessica
Dinah   vs.   Alena: 2 hits but Dinah is poisoning her to death first.
Dinah   vs.   Chaz
Dinah   vs.   Artea
Dinah   vs.   Eirika: counters! Dinah can let poison do the work here though and keep her evasion up.

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Tournaments / Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord

« Last post by Pyro on May 16, 2024, 02:42:06 AM »

Alain: Fast and damaging, really tanky, immune to status, self-healing.
Amalia: Supreme damage.
Dinah: Evasion on top of evasion. Literally.


Alain   vs.   Rubicant
Alain   vs.   Marcello (DQ8)
Alain   vs.   Sierra
Alain   vs.   Emily
Alain   vs.   Celes
Alain   vs.   Yuri
Alain   vs.   Nailah
      
Alain   vs.   Lashiec
Alain   vs.   Teepo
Alain   vs.   Jessica
Alain   vs.   Alena
Alain   vs.   Chaz
Alain   vs.   Artea
Alain   vs.   Eirika
      
      
      
Amalia   vs.   Rubicant
Amalia   vs.   Marcello (DQ8)
Amalia   vs.   Sierra
Amalia   vs.   Emily
Amalia   vs.   Celes
Amalia   vs.   Yuri
Amalia   vs.   Nailah
      
Amalia   vs.   Lashiec
Amalia   vs.   Teepo
Amalia   vs.   Jessica
Amalia   vs.   Alena
Amalia   vs.   Chaz
Amalia   vs.   Artea
Amalia   vs.   Eirika
      
      
      
Dinah   vs.   Rubicant
Dinah   vs.   Marcello (DQ8)
Dinah   vs.   Sierra
Dinah   vs.   Emily
Dinah   vs.   Celes
Dinah   vs.   Yuri
Dinah   vs.   Nailah
      
Dinah   vs.   Lashiec
Dinah   vs.   Teepo
Dinah   vs.   Jessica
Dinah   vs.   Alena
Dinah   vs.   Chaz
Dinah   vs.   Artea
Dinah   vs.   Eirika

4

Discussion / Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)

« Last post by metroid composite on May 08, 2024, 01:15:53 AM »

Starcraft:

Guardians vs Protoss in CNSL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwrD-hyB100

(CNSL basically being the league for everyone who just barely doesn't make the cut in ASL).

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Discussion / Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)

« Last post by metroid composite on May 06, 2024, 09:13:55 AM »

So ok, thinking more on the two ban-a-thon lists.

I think for the first list (where no subclass or spell is banned)...it probably also makes sense to not ban any racial selections.  So, for example, flying races would be legal.

At a glance this might seem like a boost for light armor types, your monks and rogues.  But the problem comes with the Winged Tiefling, who also functions in medium armor, although with some mild downsides compared to other flying races.  This would not apply to legacy content, so no 50 foot flyspeed Aarakokra, but winged tieflings are technically not legacy content as nothing has replaced them.

What implications would this have for the order of the list?  Well...if there's any point where I'm thinking about taking Earth Genasi or Githzerai for Pass Without Trace or Shield...yeah, screw that you almost certainly want a flying race instead.  Additionally, I think there is some opportunity for the Barbarian to move up--I sort of dismissed the Barbarian damage as fairly conditional due to being melee on the first list, and it is pretty conditional, but it's a lot less conditional if you fly.

That said, no changes to the top 5 I think

1. Paladin
2. Cleric
3. Ranger
4. Wizard
5. Fighter

Paladin is too hard to replace.  Peace Cleric dips still busted.  Gloomstalker Ranger still busted.  Wizard still brings a lot of unique spells and no investment ritual casting, and Chronurgy is busted at level 10 and 2 level wizard dips are pretty good.  Echo Knight is still busted.

Next up I decided that Sorcerer/Warlock needed to be broken up, and that is probably still true.  Ranged is still generally preferable to melee even when you have the option of flight.  That said, some of the value of Warlock was probably coming from Geenie Warlock getting really good flight at level 6, so is there a chance it's Sorcerer first this time?  Hmm...no, I think the logic still holds that...replacing Sorcerer with Bard is fairly painless especially if you still have Warlock around to grab the shield spell from Hexblade.  But banning warlock stops the Sorcerer/Warlock teamup, and hurts Bard a decent amount.

6. Warlock

And yeah, the general logic of once there's only one class with easy dippable access to the shield spell, ban that class still sounds pretty good to me.  1 level Sorcerer dip is good for a lot of reasons--sorcerers have proficiency in CON saving throws.  By picking Divine Soul you get a bit of extra protection on your saving throws.  Just good.

7. Sorcerer

---

I think here, though, after Warlock and Sorcerer might be a logical place to stick flying barbarians?

Is the gap between Bards and Druids really all that large?  I kind-of feel like it's not.  Like...they probably both want to be winged tieflings, and that means the only way the Bard picks up the shield spell reasonably early is by being a Lore Bard, but then they don't have medium armor proficiency unless they dip for that or spend their level 4 feat on it, and one way or another that puts them either behind by a feat or behind by a level of spellcasting progression.  And...I mean, also Lore Bard other than being able to pick up shield early is a fairly generic subclass, whereas Druid has flashy subclasses.  So...yeah, not really convinced banning one of either Bard or Druid really hurts all that much, but Barbarian does have a notable niche of hitting very hard.

And I mean, there's still damage comparisons to Conjure Animals from Druid I guess, but the thing is the Barbarian damage is now much less conditional, they can hit flying enemies cause they fly, whereas Conjure Animals damage drops against flying enemies.  (Also drops against a lot of enemies with damage resistance if you're any subclass not named Shepherd).

Yeah, I do think Barbarian can now stand out as the remaining class whose effects are hardest to replace.

8. Barbarian

So I mean, here's a question, is it even still Bard next?  I think being really strongly encouraged to be a Winged Tiefling while having most of your good dipping opportunities taken away is kind of rough for bard, cause if they want to keep up on spell progression, it wouldn't be until level 12 that they get the three feats together Resillient CON, Moderately Armored, and Warcaster.

So like...what are their options even?  They can't dip fighter, which would cover medium armor and CON saves.  But they could dip Artificer.  And dipping 1 level of Artificer isn't bad at all, keeps full spell slot progression, even though they'll be behind on spells they actually know.

But then here's where we start talking a little bit about pointbuy.  Like...ideally to dip artificer you would like to end up with 16 CON, 16 CHA, 14 DEX, and 13 INT, but you can't actually pointbuy enough stats for that (while only using the +2/+1 from winged tiefling).  You need to either drop CON to 14 or drop DEX to 12.  DEX seems like the clear choice.

But...Druid is just kind of looking more attractive to me at this point.  Doesn't have these rough build choices.  Does have Conjure Animals, which...while it is somewhat conditional, is now kind of the way to deal big damage with Barbarian gone, even if it won't work in every fight.

9. Druid

So...what's after Druid?  I mean, it's probably just Bard right?  Like there are bards with extra attack who could build dex and do standard ranged attack stuff.  And a low CHA Bard will still bring plenty of utility (and eventually Animate Objects, which is a remaining monster damage spell).

10. Bard

And then surely it's Artificer next yeah?  I mean, the value of Winged Boots goes down when people just pick flying races, but yes I suspect it still is.  Monks and Rogues can't really deal with groups of enemies, Artificers have AoE effects, either from infusions like Pipes of Haunting or their own spells.  And Monks and Rogues are kind-of very similar to each other.

11. Artificer

12. Monk

13. Rogue

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Discussion / Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)

« Last post by metroid composite on May 04, 2024, 04:15:54 AM »

D&D Ban-a-thon

Mmm...yeah, I think I am convinced for the second list (the one with peace cleric gloomstalker etc banned) that Warlock should slide ahead of ranger.

So

1. Paladin
2. Wizard
3. Sorcerer
4. Warlock
5. Ranger
6. Fighter
7. Barbarian
8. Bard
9. Druid
10. Cleric
11. Artificer
12. Monk
13. Rogue

For that list.

---

Meanwhile though, for the first list, where classes get credit for even just dips into their most busted subclasses...I think I'm underselling just how unreasonable the peace cleric dip is.

Like it's hard to get an exact number on Gloomstalker Ranger's output, but lets just say it's advantage on attacks.  Sometimes it will be more than that (when you fight in darkness and also benefit from the 3rd attack) sometimes it will be less (when you only get the first round bonuses).  But let's call advantage the net output average.

Anyway, if you assume all that, how much damage does a Peace Cleric's Emboldening Bond add assuming you can leverage the 10 minute duration and get it up in advance of the combat?  Well...if you have two people with power attacks (great weapon master or sharpshooter) the net amount of contribution of Emboldening Bond to damage is pretty similar to the gap between a gloomstalker and...let's say a Earth Genasi Eldritch Knight.  And it obviously is good for saving throws and some skill checks (although I have seen it argued that since the d4 can only be added once per turn that it doesn't apply to initiative as that happens outside of the normal turn order).  So...yeah, I think I should slide Cleric up on that list.

I suppose there's maybe an argument to slide Cleric above Paladin as well, cause Peace Cleric is just that unreasonable.  But...I don't know, Paladin is a bigger saving throw boost, and has good subclass auras, and with a few more paladin levels can give fear immunity to the party.  And there's no risk of not having the feature up, it's always up.

So...sliding peace cleric upwards that would make the list with all the busted subclasses credited:

1. Paladin
2. Cleric
3. Ranger
4. Wizard
5. Fighter
6. Warlock
7. Sorcerer
8. Bard
9. Druid
10. Artificer
11. Monk
12. Barbarian
13. Rogue

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General Chat / Re: What games are you playing 2024? Battle strength determined by frilly outfits

« Last post by Cmdr_King on May 01, 2024, 05:21:23 AM »

Princess Peach Showtime!- Finished this.  It's not a very substantial game, and the A+ costume design is sadly the only truly excellent part of it, but it's... Fine, y'know?  Good enough game.  Probably wouldn't recommend dropping $60 on it for most people?  I don't think it really lends itself to replays or challenges in particular; as far as I can tell, there's 30 stages plus 5 bosses and you have to do all of them to finish.  There might be some extras but it's not many.  So it's not really like a proper Mario game in that way.

Now aesthetically it does pretty well at staying engaging across the entire run.  There's 3 stages for each costume, the stage play aesthetic is strong, it helps bind the whole thing together.  But I'm going to forget everything about this game by next week, and honestly only three or so of the stage types are actually engaging in their own right.  At the same time though, as you might expect from having 10 distinct stage types determined by your current job class in a platformer, none of the gameplay really has the depth to sustain many more stages than that.  The game just really never rises above the issues generated by its premise even if it's pleasant enough within that.

So yeah, not a bad game, but not one I can strongly recommend given the many other games out there and nintendo's pricing tendencies.

8

General Chat / Re: What games are you playing 2024? Battle strength determined by frilly outfits

« Last post by Dark Holy Elf on May 01, 2024, 01:13:10 AM »

Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones

Replayed this. Eirika HM. Decided to actually do early promotions. Core team was Eirika (promoted at 20), Ephraim (20), Seth, Tana (11, Wyvern Knight), Colm (16, Rogue), Vanessa (17, Wyvern Knight), Gerik (10, Hero), Duessel, Saleh, Lute (10, Mage Knight), Kyle (11, Paladin), and Tethys. Colm got pretty RNG blessed early, almost immediately turning into an excellent fighter. And then Tana possibly got even more RNG-blessed, even despite promoting early she was 23 str / 29 spd by the end, crazy.

Metroid

Amy wanted to see this. This is the first time I've played it since 2001, when I played it once before. It's... clunky. The DNA of later Metroid games is visible but it's just not very fun to play. Starting at 30 HP every time you die (which is as little as like ~5% later) is awful, the way the game emphasizes very slow grinding to heal is bad, lack of map is a bad combination with how same-y the areas are.

Kid Icarus

See above, another NES game which I consider much worse than at least one later game in the series. Made by some of the same people right after Metroid 1, so it's neat to play it as a pseudo-sequel. This one I haven't played since ~1996! Anyway while also obviously aged, I do think it's notably more fun than Metroid 1; enemies NOT dropping health is actually a huge addition by subtraction so I'm never tempted to grind, and you start off at reasonable HP anyway (100% early, as little as 40% later). Game's an odd hodgepodge of stages, the three castles have a bit of a Metroid feel but the rest of the game is either sidescrolling or upscrolling, with the latter being particularly dangerous because you can't go back, so if you fall you die, have fun.

Theatrhythm: Final Bar Line

Currently playing this. There's very little to say about it, it sure is more Theatrhythm. Which, naturally, means I'm having a good time.

9

General Chat / Re: What games are you playing 2024? Battle strength determined by frilly outfits

« Last post by 074 on April 28, 2024, 12:47:42 AM »

Unicorn Overlord (complete)

8/10 game, I'm honestly extremely satisfied with this one and am willing to play it again at some point, but overall have some issues with the pacing in places.  I can accept a ho-hum writing job in a gameplay game, which this very much is, but there's just enough little problems I have that add up to some gripes overall.  I like the hell out of this game, I just think it could be better.

Probably the biggest is that it tries to have its cake and eat it too regarding the order in which you can deal with neighboring countries; giving you the illusion of freedom on that front while it's very much implying that you are supposed to go in a specified order.  This frankly could have been done better if they had gone further in either direction.  Either go for a fixed scenario order where you can have more in-depth storytelling or embrace the more open world approach they were teasing at.  Either could have worked, frankly.

I'm going to also take this time to vent a bit about how some of the localized chapters' stories played out.  Drakenhold's was probably the best fleshed out one.  The others didn't have enough time to cook - Bastorias could have gone from good to great if everything regarding Elgor and the Rat Bestrals wasn't constrained to a couple of encyclopedia entries and a last-chapter reveal.  Albion could have been decent had it expounded upon the small bit of local plot it got.  Elheim...good god Elheim was honestly the lowest part of the game, I don't know what the hell that needed.  I think ironically, Elheim and Albion suffered more from tying too much into the rather bare "collect the macguffins to do the big plot" aspect and not having enough of their own internal plot.  It also feels like the game needed one more chapter, so to speak where you could deal with the enemy using combined arms setups, but that may just be me.

Also Agrias Oaks syndrome is in full force here, don't act surprised.  Outside of a core few (mostly Scarlett, Lex, and Yahna), characters will disappear from the plot after the chapter they were introduced in is over, no surprises here.

I feel obligated to take a bit here to expound on just how much of a miracle it is that this game made it out in this level of quality.  Unicorn Overlord had a ten-year dev cycle, having originated as a PSVita title and going through not one but two large-scale refactors.  It basically limped across the finish line only because Kamitani funded the end of it himself.  I suppose to that end I can't blame its faults too much because there was barely enough money to make the game with by the end, so it had to be shipped out soon.

You know what games usually come out of those cycles?  Duke Nukem Forever.  Anthem.  Suicide Squad:Kill The Justice League.  Games that are just fucking terrible and out of touch with everything.  Shambling monstrosities that should have been put down years ago.  It's amazing that Unicorn Overlord basically beat the odds here and came out in the state that it did.

It's flawed, but I love it all the same.

10

Discussion / Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)

« Last post by metroid composite on April 27, 2024, 10:34:47 PM »

So...random observations.

Barbarian was banned a lot earlier on the second list--does this mean it should be banned earlier on the first list too?  And the conclusion I came to was no, because on the first list spells were doing a lot of singletarget damage thanks to Conjure Animals and Animate Objects.  Both are conditionally high damage (melee damage in general falls under a similar category--conditionally high damage).  And by the time Druid got banned on the first list, we entered a weird scenario where the party was just desperate for some versatility, which is not Barbarian's forte.

Another thing worth thinking about--I think there might be a world where Warlock moves above ranger on the second list.  The more I think about it, warlock can cover a lot of bases.  Like...with wizard gone, warlock is a reasonable one to cover rituals with pact of the tome.  With pact of the chain, warlock can have an invisible scout that can travel a long distance from them, kind of like a permanent arcane eye that doesn't take a spell slot.  Yeah, warlock is probably not the one concentrating on pass without trace, but it can fill various other utility and scouting roles that the party still very much needs to fill, the same way the party wants someone concentrating on PWT.

EDIT: yeah, I think Warlock does compare favourably damage-wise to a fighter who slows down their build by taking the ritual-caster feat.  (Favourably in terms of ranged damage--at least for a while cause they delay getting to 20 DEX for so long, eventually at the 4th ASI the fighter can pull into the lead).

There's still an argument for ranger here, and it's that yeah, you want someone with rituals, and yeah, you want someone concentrating on PWT for the party, but the gap between Warlock and a fighter with the ritual caster feat is maybe smaller than the gap between a ranger and...say, an Earth Genasi Eldritch Knight fighter, which is a larger gap.  And...yes, that does sound correct.  Fighter spends its subclass and its race learning PWT and getting enough spell slots to keep PWT up, but Ranger just has those things already, and can dedicate race to damage and subclass to damage and/or nice attack riders.

Funnily enough, one of the flashier builds involve Ranger dipping into warlock (Fey Wanderer Ranger taking a 1 level Undead Warlock dip to trigger beguiling twist).  Which...obviously doesn't help pick between the two.  But I think there's enough solid ranger builds that don't need warlock that the case is still reasonably strong.