Author Topic: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord  (Read 2463 times)

Pyro

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Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord
« on: May 16, 2024, 02:42:06 AM »
Alain: Fast and damaging, really tanky, immune to status, self-healing.
Amalia: Supreme damage.
Dinah: Evasion on top of evasion. Literally.


Alain   vs.   Rubicant
Alain   vs.   Marcello (DQ8)
Alain   vs.   Sierra
Alain   vs.   Emily
Alain   vs.   Celes
Alain   vs.   Yuri
Alain   vs.   Nailah
      
Alain   vs.   Lashiec
Alain   vs.   Teepo
Alain   vs.   Jessica
Alain   vs.   Alena
Alain   vs.   Chaz
Alain   vs.   Artea
Alain   vs.   Eirika
      
      
      
Amalia   vs.   Rubicant
Amalia   vs.   Marcello (DQ8)
Amalia   vs.   Sierra
Amalia   vs.   Emily
Amalia   vs.   Celes
Amalia   vs.   Yuri
Amalia   vs.   Nailah
      
Amalia   vs.   Lashiec
Amalia   vs.   Teepo
Amalia   vs.   Jessica
Amalia   vs.   Alena
Amalia   vs.   Chaz
Amalia   vs.   Artea
Amalia   vs.   Eirika
      
      
      
Dinah   vs.   Rubicant
Dinah   vs.   Marcello (DQ8)
Dinah   vs.   Sierra
Dinah   vs.   Emily
Dinah   vs.   Celes
Dinah   vs.   Yuri
Dinah   vs.   Nailah
      
Dinah   vs.   Lashiec
Dinah   vs.   Teepo
Dinah   vs.   Jessica
Dinah   vs.   Alena
Dinah   vs.   Chaz
Dinah   vs.   Artea
Dinah   vs.   Eirika

Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2024, 05:09:06 AM »
Alain   vs.   Rubicant: Toasty.
Alain   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): Lean Edge keeps him afloat.
Alain   vs.   Sierra: ID immune. 2HKOs.
Alain   vs.   Emily: Evasion. ITD damage.
Alain   vs.   Celes: Vanish. Isn't OHKOd.
Alain   vs.   Yuri: Isn't OHKOd and does his thing.
Alain   vs.   Nailah: Gotta figure FE10 super skills.
     
Alain   vs.   Lashiec: 75% magic damage... Alain's mdef and HP are great though, and he gets 4 actions to Lashiec's 3 and has the evade and speed...
Alain   vs.   Teepo: not physicals.
Alain   vs.   Jessica: Speed damage and durability.
Alain   vs.   Alena
Alain   vs.   Chaz: Lean Edge keeps him in and threatens a KO into Spinning Edge.
Alain   vs.   Artea: Artea's IPs might matter. Although a crit threatens him.
Alain   vs.   Eirika: Her evade is a problem but Cavalry Slayer is mean here and Noble Guard is really mean. His speed is very high if that staves off a double.
     
     
Amalia   vs.   Rubicant: magic. Not OHKOd.
Amalia   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): magic.
Amalia   vs.   Sierra
Amalia   vs.   Emily: ignores evade.
Amalia   vs.   Celes: vanish first
Amalia   vs.   Yuri: magic assault?
Amalia   vs.   Nailah: assuming Nailah doesn't one round.
     
Amalia   vs.   Lashiec
Amalia   vs.   Teepo
Amalia   vs.   Jessica
Amalia   vs.   Alena
Amalia   vs.   Chaz: ID
Amalia   vs.   Artea: OHKOs.
Amalia   vs.   Eirika
     
     
     
Dinah   vs.   Rubicant: Rubicant can't punch through can he.
Dinah   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): Marcello has the actions to punch through. But can he.
Dinah   vs.   Sierra
Dinah   vs.   Emily:
Dinah   vs.   Celes: Vanish.
Dinah   vs.   Yuri: I think
Dinah   vs.   Nailah: she didn't have Nihil
     
Dinah   vs.   Lashiec
Dinah   vs.   Teepo: Triple Strike is... Inaccurate. But he has a lot of time....
Dinah   vs.   Jessica
Dinah   vs.   Alena: 2 hits but Dinah is poisoning her to death first.
Dinah   vs.   Chaz
Dinah   vs.   Artea
Dinah   vs.   Eirika: counters! Dinah can let poison do the work here though and keep her evasion up.

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2024, 08:57:19 AM »
I don't know if I agree with how the stat topic handles the damage/AP issue but I do know that I have no particular desire to argue about it one way or another, especially when I'm doing this while half-asleep.

Anyways I'm taking the harsh approach and using the damage average that fully factors in the cav vs infantry damage bonus.  Yes, accounting for cavalry vs infantry makes Alain more disgusting in a duel than he already is.

My general reasoning for fully factoring in cav bonus into the averages is:
- It's a strictly binary yes/no thing so partially factoring it into cavalry damage figures strikes me as a wholly inappropriate use of damage generalization
- Even if I felt otherwise on the first point, arguing that they would only get the diminished bonus against infantry leads to a view that is so utterly unreflective of ingame performance that I would immediately deem it nonsensical
- It's based on a completely static condition that's common in game, as well as in the DL barring certain transformations and other minor edge cases (Float?), free from any of the nonsense that plagues things like FE doubling arguments
- It allows for spoiling that is both more potent and more reflective of in-game realities

Alain vs. Rubicant - Rubicante might not OHKO but it so doesn't matter.
Alain vs. Sierra - Lord, even if he didn't immune ID he'd just OHKO to me taking the stat topic at face value.
Alain vs. Emily
Alain vs. Celes - Partial ITD on Spinning Edge helps but I don't think it's enough off the top of my head.  Could be mistaken though.
Alain vs. Yuri - Huh, yeah, Yuri barely survives a Spinning Edge even after the cav bonus, and I'd bet he can scam his way out from there.
Alain vs. Nailah - idk, Alain's hell to take down with defense subject physicals, even ones that are occasionally backed by triple laguz royal strength stats, and "occasionally" in this case means sub-25%.  The counters though... (also, would a transformed laguz count as normal infantry anyways) e: oh well if savage's extra damage is actually ITD that doesn't matter anyways lol
Alain vs. Lashiec - So Lashiec 4HKOs Alain.  That's not gonna work out too great in the face of Lean Edge, I'd think.
Alain vs. Alena - Alena so doesn't crit fast enough to pull this out.
Alain vs. Chaz - Alain really likes having that sword huh.
Alain vs. Artea - Spinning Edge is horrible murder to me which saves me from having to consider any potential IP hype.
Alain vs. Eirika - Honestly Eirika's just not that impressive in this matchup
     
Amalia vs. Rubicant
Amalia vs. Sierra
Amalia vs. Emily
Amalia vs. Celes
Amalia vs. Yuri
Amalia vs. Nailah
Amalia vs. Lashiec - Think he just scrapes an OHKO here, even if he doesn't it so doesn't matter.
Amalia vs. Alena
Amalia vs. Chaz
Amalia vs. Artea - Either I take Amalia's abysmal initative as first turn speed and Artea instadoubles her off the bat under my revised SD assumptions and 2HKOs, or I take Unicorn Overlord speed as average forever and Artea dies to the autocrit.  More inclined to take the former view considering that low initiative is, in fact, not all that great to have ingame.
Amalia vs. Eirika
     
Dinah vs. Rubicant - I want to say the current boss notes undersell Rubicante's speed rather badly and he's 38 agility and not *23* (at least this is what the FF4 RS calculator that the speed notes document that was posted in the old stat topic links to says) which would put him at RS 2 aka he's probably faster even taking SDs at full impact.  Doesn't really matter to me though.
Dinah vs. Sierra
Dinah vs. Emily - Probably.  She just gets so many swings.
Dinah vs. Celes - Vanish.
Dinah vs. Yuri - Honestly the fact that Yuri2 can go on forever here makes pondering actual hit counts irrelevent here.
Dinah vs. Nailah - Nailah's really accurate, people.
Dinah vs. Lashiec - Hinges on whether or not I agree damaging PS4 techs/99 PS4 dexterity count as truestrikes and honestly that's not consistant with how I take them against fully comprehensive evasion.
Dinah vs. Alena
Dinah vs. Chaz - Explode checks Mental, not evasion, and I'm 99% certain pure status screws over thieves and werefoxes as much as anyone else.
Dinah vs. Artea - Um Artea immunes poison with the armor that gives him MP healing and so Dinah is pretty much incapable of killing him ever.  Also see above note on only seeing initiative mattering on the first turn, the evade game will get overwhelmed eventually even if it takes a century.  Like the best you can argue for Dinah here is that she'd would win on a does more damage tiebreak but that requires taking views that I don't.
Dinah vs. Eirika -

Alain's pretty clearly Godlike, other two rather not so much.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 09:35:35 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2024, 09:15:27 PM »
Some notes on my UO views:
-I'd take enemy atk as higher than 60, myself. Not sure exactly where. For today's voting I'll just exponentiate the durability figures by 0.75 and call it a day.
-I probably reduce the potency of first-strike moves in some way... even excluding War Horn as largely DL-useless, about 36% of the cast has one (I may have miscounted) but only 20% of the cast can use them in-game. One option is just to cut the potency of first strike moves to reflect this.
-The most "fair" way to take speed is probably literal first turn but then no doubleturning until the next "combat" which is in 3 turns. I might just half the SD effect instead though, so each SD is 12.5%. Works for today.
-Cavalry do +41% to infantry (there's a pretty strong case to take this higher... open to arguments), this is factored into the average. Average needs to be lowered a little from the cut to initiative damage. Call it 44 today.

Alain: ~283/~191 (still nuts), about 129% speed, 83% damage or 47% with the draining.

Alain   vs.   Rubicant: As mentioned, Alain might take a hit without resisting fire, which is impressive for a PC. Doesn't matter.
Alain   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): Marcello does 41%, Alain can use Lean Edge to buy himself an extra turn. Two Spinning Edges and two Lean Edges is 260%, DQ8 boss HP gives me headaches but no way Marcello hits that to me.
Alain   vs.   Sierra: I think Alain barely misses the OHKO to me (takes it if we increase the cav bonus) but... that means Stealer of Souls actually doesn't fully heal Sierra so he kills her next turn.
Alain   vs.   Emily: Emily... 3HKOs before Noble Guard which definitely slows Emily down a bit, even though the ITD is there. Lean Edge probably not worth it against Emily evade, Spinning Edge 2HKOs as always but after accuracy it's probably 3HKO. So Alain wins on turn 4, by which time Emily has gotten two shots of full damage and two which are resited to varying degrees. That's probably enough. Close!
Alain   vs.   Celes: Vanish.
Alain   vs.   Yuri: Yuri gets rolling which is probably too much.
Alain   vs.   Nailah: For what it's worth I would definitely consider Nailah infantry, bestrals are after all. That said Savage dealing +72 ITD damage is lethal with any RD kill point and she's getting it off unless Alain wins in two turns (80% over three Nailah doubles).
     
Alain   vs.   Lashiec: Lashiec 3HKOs to me, but Alain also has a 3:2 so he gets off the draining he needs to stay afloat. Reinforce might be scary there at the end if Alain couldn't blitz with Spinning Edge, but y'know he can.
Alain   vs.   Teepo: Teepo only 4HKOs even below half HP so Lean Edge eats him.
Alain   vs.   Jessica: Really think so.
Alain   vs.   Alena: NES Alena might have the faintest glimmer of a chance but I don't vote on that these days.
Alain   vs.   Chaz: Yeah Lean Edge heal-locks unless Chaz opts for shields, so he does that. The issue is that Chaz only does 29% with Megid anyway and needs to stop to heal every two turns... yeah, not close.
Alain   vs.   Artea: Again, heal-lock with Lean Edge.
Alain   vs.   Eirika: Eirika is the only dueller in the field Alain doesn't hit weakness on! That said... yeah I think Alain is fast enough to stop her from doubling with the Rapier. He can try to Cavalry Slayer her to seal off one attack and one counter, but Spinning Edge might be better anyway just to ignore counters outright. His physical durability with Noble Guard probably takes things.
     
Amalia: 209/79 durability (Heavy Guard spam makes her pdur silly), 77% speed, Omega Shatter is 96% (145% with Hawk Eye), Heavy Slash is 73%, Penetrate can backend damage a bit but doesn't really add any.
     
Amalia   vs.   Rubicant: Oh dear. No.
Amalia   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): Amalia would need to OHKO here. Have to imagine I see Marcello as better than 145.
Amalia   vs.   Sierra: Death.
Amalia   vs.   Emily: Hawk Eye.
Amalia   vs.   Celes: Am I willing to see Vanish > Truestrike? I think that's right. Truestrike would trump Image, but not Vanish. Imp renders it moot anyway.
Amalia   vs.   Yuri: Pretty sure Yuri is tanky enough for this after buffing.
Amalia   vs.   Nailah: Can tank a Hawk Eye Omega Shatter. Amalia probably shouldn't even attack without Hawk Eye, so like Alain, she's dying to Savage before she gets a chance at a second combat. I guess you could subject Savage's damage boost to Heavy Guard, I definitely don't though.
     
Amalia   vs.   Lashiec: Lashiec just misses the OHKO to me. Their speed is very similar! Best case scenario could even give Amalia two turns, and she still has no chance.
Amalia   vs.   Teepo: 3HKOs, isn't 2HKOed.
Amalia   vs.   Jessica: Magic Burst.
Amalia   vs.   Alena: Alena is the Heavy version of Nailah, this isn't good enough.
Amalia   vs.   Chaz: Explode.
Amalia   vs.   Artea: Artea has a 3-2 to me, but not an instant double.
Amalia   vs.   Eirika: Or maybe Eirika is the Heavy version of Nailah. Same story.
     
     
Dinah has 45/52 durability and 123% speed. Good evade too, on top of being able to dodge most things that would hit her. 19% damage, or spend 2 AP for 14% damage and poison (with does 30% target MHP). Weakness Hunter can pile an extra 43% but that's 2 valuable PP. Taking her base evade at 70% due to some combination of considering more accurate enemies, difficulty mode differences, and and a slight side-eye to scarves.

Dinah   vs.   Rubicant: Rubicant has two toys here which help: Fire 2 counters and a doubleact physical. So that's about 9 attacks per combat. If he lands 4 of them he does real damage. He's got a 27% chance of doing that, and 2HKOs Dinah if he does. (He also has a 10% chance of getting 5, which would mean an immediate win.) Dinah might prefer to do less damage, if she only attacks once she only faces 7 attacks, and at that point the chance of Rubi breaking through is 13%... okay, that's not worth it. Anyway Rubicant needs 6 combats to have >50% chance of breaking through the evade twice. Does Dinah kill in six combats? That's (probably) 3.42 PCHP damage she does. I... have memories of calculating Rubicant's HP as just over 3.5. But I haven't yet considered doubleturns, and she should get a few of those in there, and that's probably just enough, for me. Very close match.
Dinah   vs.   Marcello (DQ8): With only six actions, Marcello only has a 7% chance to land at least four hits, and again he needs to do so twice. Not happening.
Dinah   vs.   Sierra: I... think? I want to say S2 had magic repel enemies (really hope I'm not conflating with S3 here, but I can remember S2's animation for it in my mind) and Finger of Death / perhaps pure status in general didn't work on them. ... for that matter, does Dinah's evade catch pure status in UO?
Dinah   vs.   Emily: Okay, eight hits this time, i.e. 24 per combat, that's way too many. Emily will need to sneak a few through but she will, and in the meantime she has evade of her own and poison immunity to get her the time she needs.
Dinah   vs.   Celes: Nope.
Dinah   vs.   Yuri: Think some of his stuff had crazy hit numbers, and since he immunes poison and is tanky Dinah can't kill him ever.
Dinah   vs.   Nailah: Nailah is just too accurate. She's taking Dinah's evade down to like 30. At this point she is probably hitting by her third attack, and OHKOs when she does. That said... Venom Thrust doesn't trigger counters, so if Dinah lands that and three poison ticks she wins? ... no, because she does less than 10% with Venom Thrust (and spending PP on Weakness Hunter makes her die a turn sooner, not to mentino probably DOES trigger a counter).
     
Dinah   vs.   Lashiec: Thunder Halberd is ITE.
Dinah   vs.   Teepo: Uh. Triple Blow may punch through... it's the same odds as Rubicant. Except it doesn't even 2HKO so never mind, that's not working. Teepo needs Howling to turn off evasion. I have no idea if it does or not, and the match hinges on that entirely, so abstain.
Dinah   vs.   Jessica: If evade doesn't stop Kasnooze, I suppose...
Dinah   vs.   Alena: Maybe if Alena OHKOed, but needing the second hit is too much.
Dinah   vs.   Chaz: Explode.
Dinah   vs.   Artea: See Random, Artea immunes poison and can't die ever. Since he gets more turns (at least to me), sooner or later he'll land the hit he needs, although yes it might take a very, very, very long time.
Dinah   vs.   Eirika: Unlike Nailah, Eirika probably isn't doubling here, and certainly isn't with the only weapon which OHKOs.


Alain 9-5. A pretty clear Godlike, borderliners only beat him if they spoil him.
Dinah 5-8. I feel like this field is a little light on ITE so she might actually be worse than Amalia, I dunno. Weird dueller, definitely belongs in Heavy though.
Amalia 4-10. Bad speed and magic durability coupled with lots of holes in her immunity list mean she's probably not Godlike, but she is certainly a good Heavy with that big turn 1 ITE damage and physical tanking.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 12:07:35 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2024, 12:07:57 AM »
UO kneejerks:
* I'm with Random and in favor of just taking the cav bonus vs. infantry at full strength.  It really is that good.  The more interesting question, which doesn't come up here much (Eirkia vs. Dinah?), is whether to take it defensively as well (i.e. "Unicorn Overlord dueler in the house, so UO typing rules are in play"), or treat it as an attacker's benefit.  I think I'm fine with assuming it as in effect on either side - like, I don't have an issue with giving archers in other games a damage bonus vs. say FE fliers or other weak-to-arrows characters.

* I do think that UO PC characters need to affirmatively win.  Getting into lots of inconclusive fights is bad in-game - you'll run out of stamina, and if you REALLY take too long, you'll time out the entire map.  This mostly comes up for Dinah / Travis / etc.  The strictest option would be to take the stamina of a solo unit as a leader and say that you need to win in say 6 * 3 = 18 rounds or else have to Rest, which is horrible doom for most characters.  I don't know if I'd be that hardcore, but even if we assume eating 10 of the +3 stamina restorer (Hot Cross Buns, right?), that's still "win in 48 rounds or else have to rest."  And even then, maybe call it around 100 rounds before we get into "you clearly aren't going to beat this map in time, are you" territory.  This can actually happen on the Liberation missions which have small deploy amounts and short time limits - if you're doing some duck back into your base for slow healing strategy, it probably won't work.

* As mentioned in the topic, agree with assuming a slightly higher enemy accuracy & a notably higher enemy attack, which weakens defensive buff games somewhat (sorry Alain's Noble Guard).  As mentioned in the stat topic, I'd also probably kneejerk all the durabilities as lower to reflect all the powerful, reliable Guard effects the game has, too.

* No votes for Amalia yet.  (I got bogged down mid-Bastorias, which is not an unusual place to run out of steam from what I understand.)  That said does she really want a Gold Bangle?  Wouldn't a Lapis Pendant be really good on her - lets her Heavy Guard her opponent's first attack AND do the auto-crit?  I don't think she's gonna care about long-term defense past turn 1 very often...


Alain   vs.   Rubicant - Alain does make it a good fight!
Alain   vs.   Marcello (DQ8) - I'll buy it.
Alain   vs.   Sierra
Alain   vs.   Emily - Alain is +10 Accuracy vs. average, so he has a decent shot here...  but yeah, stat topic Emily is kinda nuts in slugfests.  Rare "fair" Alain L.
Alain   vs.   Celes
Alain   vs.   Yuri - The Seraphic Radiance totally hovers, just like angel fliers, so hey, avoids the type weakness.
Alain   vs.   Nailah - Sure, I'll buy Savage hype.
     
Alain   vs.   Jessica - Alain has 64 Initiative, right?  i.e. the listed 44 Init isn't already baking in his Rapid Order buff? That...  is pretty bananas.  They both OHKO each other but Alain goes first.
Alain   vs.   Alena - I vote NES but Alena isn't as dodgy as Emily, which is the key to Emily's argument.
Alain   vs.   Artea
Alain   vs.   Eirika
     
     
Dinah   vs.   Rubicant - Headache, but I'll trust Elf's math.
Dinah   vs.   Marcello (DQ8)
Dinah   vs.   Sierra - My kneejerk is that pure status gets through.  Certainly Shaman's stuff works just fine on Scouts / Werefoxes.
Dinah   vs.   Emily
Dinah   vs.   Celes
Dinah   vs.   Yuri
Dinah   vs.   Nailah - Yeah, Nailah has an insane Hit vs. average, like +40.  Kind of a problem.
     
Dinah   vs.   Jessica See above, Kasnooze to turn off evasion, then nuke.
Dinah   vs.   Alena Yeah, double hits help break past Nocturnal Evade, but probably not enough to get through the vanilla evade.
Dinah   vs.   Artea See above argument - Lufia 2 lets you stall in a way UO doesn't, so Artea doesn't technically even have to kill, can just let Dinah fail the mission.
Dinah   vs.   Eirika See above as well.  I'll be nice and let Eirika get a double damage bonus...  does she OHKO without Sieglinde on a lighter weapon?  Oh, 41% phys durability, absolutely.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 12:09:59 AM by SnowFire »

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Re: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2024, 02:53:10 PM »
What would it do to the damage average if Amalia was allowed her starting Ruby and Sapphire Pendants?

It is weird to me that she is not getting that credit.

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Godlike, Unicorn Overlord
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2024, 02:05:56 AM »
If the only change was giving Amalia her starting accessories, then practically nothing.  It's a huge cast.  That said, if you're allowing that, you're probably allowing some other stuff like Selvie's starting Dove Plume for more Initiative or better baseline equipment.  And...  Amalia generally wins or loses her matches on turn 1.  Perversely enough, Amalia might actually be mildly better relatively with the stricter view on equipment legality, since more AP / PP will only really matter in a longer fight (if we assume she drops her stat topic Gold Bangle for a Lapis Pendant, then having a Sapphire Pendant is nice because it means she can Heavy Guard two enemy attacks, I guess), and her turn 1 damage / initiative will actually go down a little from the damage & Initiative average creeping upwards.  (And in the occasional match that reaches turn 2, she's not even THAT much worse off with the existing interp.)