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Author Topic: Futurama type tournament- semifinals. Will thief's reign of terror be stopped?  (Read 1330 times)

superaielman

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Godlike:
Reicher Wallach (MK2) vs Yuna (FFX)
Myria (BoF3) vs Orlandu (FFT)

Heavy:
Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Lassic (PS4)
Frejyadour (S5) vs Stella (Brig:LoR)

Middle:
Hendrik (DQ11) vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4)
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Mario (Mario Rabbids)

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Thief(male)(FFT)
Cecil (FF4) vs Dorothea (FETH)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

superaielman

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Reicher Wallach (MK2) vs Yuna (FFX)- Oh dear. Reicher can do some damage to the magus three, but that's not going to matter much when they start unloading massive damage. He is not gettting a second turn.
Myria (BoF3) vs Orlandu (FFT)- Block evil eye and outslug otherwise. Death is way too late to matter.

Heavy:
Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids)vs Lassic (PS4)- I think post reinforcement Anothergate is a OHKO. RL can't keep barrier up all the time and can't blitz past that hp range offhand.
Frejyadour (S5) vs Stella (Brig:LoR)- 2HKO incoming. Don't think Stella can stop that from happening.

Middle:
Hendrik (DQ11) vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4)-ID wrecks Hendrik.

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Thief(male)(FFT)- charm is bad news here; thief being able to hit her defense by stealing gear when she's charmed is a problem too. Open to arguments but I'm strongly leaning this way.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 05:35:07 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

SnowFire

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Heavy:
Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Lassic (PS4)
Frejyadour (S5) vs Stella (Brig:LoR)
Tanky enough to not be 2HKO'd I presume, 2HKOs back.

Middle:
Hendrik (DQ11) vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4)
I don't normally vote PS4 (started it but didn't get to the end, although might make an exception for Futurama) but for reference, yes, there is an Act II legal, storebought, instant death resistance accessory in Act 2: the Holy Talisman (sold in multiple stores, no less, no crafting or ingredients required). It's only 25% resistance at max forge but 2 of them combined are 50% resistance which should send Hahn's ID plummeting to turn 3, and with Hahn's suspect durability + Hendrik's damage being better in Act 2, I suspect that Hahn is getting 2HKOed here.  (Act 3 Hendrik wins on the spot for sure since he fully blocks Instant Death regardless of damage.)

I get being skeptical of Act 2 statusblockers in general, and if I'd known how popular the Act II interp would have been I'd have compiled a full list in the stat topic, but if someone brings up that yes, a specific statusblocker really did exist...  ah well, still a little salty about Luminary vs. Stella on that.  (I take it that Elf is harsh on crafted stuff, although I suspect that even 1 Archangel's Boots was sufficient to clearly win for Luminary there, if the expectation was to craft 14 copies and that was seen as too onerous.).  Anyway, as noted, not an issue here, Holy Talisman is storebought and not expensive, although the lack of full immunity may yet cause problems for Hendrik if he doesn't manage a 2HKO.


Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Mario (Mario Rabbids)
This seems very close.  Setsuna full-heals with each Luminaire so Mario does need to OHKO (he'll die before he doubles).  Setsuna has 0.86 PCHP.  Mario's big damage turn is 839 damage if I read the stat topic correctly, so he needs the kill point to be at 975 damage or lower.  The two-turn damage average gives him that kill, the three-turn damage average doesn't.  No vote yet since this is close and I might have missed something.
EDIT: I'll buy Elf's reasoning.

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Thief(male)(FFT)
Does anyone know how the charmed FFT AI interacts with Reflect Mail?  Will charmed characters use it "intelligently"?  If they are naive to Reflect Mail in FFT, then Ophilia has a play here, actually - spam Reflective Veil, and when Charm lands, she'll just blast herself, which really blasts Thief.  If the AI is smart, though, Ophilia is probably doomed, since charmed Ophilia will just heal Thief instead of reflecting off herself, and once she's out of MP from healing both herself (when not charmed) and Thief (when Charmed), Thief will win the resulting pathetic slugfest, even if she equipped the Morning Star for better physical damage (which will still be awful).
EDIT: RIP, charmed AI knows about Reflect

Cecil (FF4) vs Dorothea (FETH)
A pathetic slapfight.  Going to assume Dorothea overwhelms Cecil's weak healing with spammed Hexblades before she breaks all her weapons, since Cecil certainly isn't going to try to overwhelm her Renewal when that means eating even weak physical counterattacks and having to take a turn off healing.  Cecil might yet have it if Hexblade is seen as having some element (Levin Sword is probably messed with by Cecil's lightning resistance), but eh.  (In-game, Hexblade is pretty dangerous, but the FE3H damage average is really high, so Dorothea's damage is far less impressive.)

EDIT: Oh no.  Oh no.  Cecil heals around ~0.33 PCHP with his Cura, has above-average physical evade, and average magic evade (where evade is really defense in FF4's wacky system).  Dorothea's Hexblade is 0.30 damage and she can't crit with it.  So yeah, she isn't actually making any progress here.  Cecil has 25 shots of healing.  That means she has to break 2 full Silver Sword+s, and then finish Cecil off with whatever scraps are left lying around.  I think she still has it if allowed 2 full Silver Swords, as long as she has some random Iron Swords to finish it off with, since Cecil takes so painfully long to kill through Renewal?  But yikes, switching to abstain for the moment here too.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 10:58:50 AM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Reicher Wallach (MK2) vs Yuna (FFX) - Yeah, Anima AND Magus Sisters are a bit too much.
Myria (BoF3) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - I'm pretty sure Orlandu can block all of the relevant statuses and they're pretty well matched for speed otherwise.

Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Lassic (PS4) - EVIL EYE CLAIMS A VICTIM. Lassic 2HKOs with Weaken'd+non-Weaken'd Another Gate, so, as soon as Sleep lasts for two turns, it's game. And Rabbid Luigi's offense sucks, so that's definitely happening.
Frejyadour Falenas (S5) vs Stella (Brig:LoR) - Frey is both reasonably durable to physicals and somewhat good at parrying, so I don't think Stella has much of an argument for a victory, the odds just aren't in her favor. And his 2HKO is pretty sound.

Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Thief (male)(FFT) - STEAL HEART? REALLY?
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Dorothea Arnault (FETH) - Uhhhh this is kind of a trainwreck, isn't it? After factoring in Renewal's constant regen, Cecil actually 6HKOs Doro and she uh 5HKOs back with Hexblade before you factor in counters and she goes first. So, yeah, she -would- outslug Cecil... buuuut healing. HOWEVER, his healing erases roughly one Doro turn while making him lose over a full swing of his of progress as well, so this actually goes on for a long time, doesn't it. EDIT: Wait, Silver Swords aren't even FORGED. Nevermind, I probably would allow a THIRD Silver no strings attached. Good lord, Cecil. Though I should have expected no less from mr. I need to double to not get munched alive by fucking Flayn.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 01:16:53 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
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[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

074

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Godlike:
Myria (BoF3) vs Orlandu (FFT) - Thief Hat blocks Paralysis, N-Kai blocks Confusion.  Pending on Orlandu's needs, he can take a HP hit for White Robe to halve most of Myria's good damage as well.  I'm pretty sure he can chew through the rest of her durability before Death lands.  Aegis Shield also blunts the impact of her spells with that 50% M-Evade, so he'll get some free turns out of it.

Heavy:
Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Lassic (PS4) - fucking...Possession and Reinforce.  Lassic has no intention of letting Rabbids live.

Middle:
Hendrik (DQ11) vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4) - Abstaining because I can't get proper accuracy numbers for Gelun/Doran/Rimit in time for this match.

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Thief(male)(FFT) - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Cecil (FF4) vs Dorothea (FETH) - I can't believe this is the one I have to do the most research on.  What the fuck is with Light this season.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 04:05:56 PM by 074 »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Dark Holy Elf

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Godlike:
Reicher Wallach (MK2) vs Yuna (FFX): Even if he cuts through an aeon, Yuna's evade actually means he has a decently hard time closing the deal.
Myria (BoF3) vs Orlandu (FFT): Thief Hat / Judo Outfit / N-Kai. It's not even... that large a stat hit compared to default. Orlandu still gets poisoned, but have to think he can probably manage. Mjollnir hits pretty hard but it'll miss sometimes.

Heavy:
Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Lassic (PS4): I'm not sure this is quite as open-and-shut as others thing... Reinforce takes a turn and is below 25% HP, so Lassic is probably two turns from death after using it. He also can't possibly KO with Anothergate until sleep lands; Rabbid Luigi cuts damage on EVERY turn. So... actually, leaning Rabbid Luigi here? He can moderate his damage so that the end of the battle looks something like this:

Lassic at ~26%
Rabbid Luigi attack, Weaken
Lassic Reinforce
Rabbid Luigi attack, Super Barrier
Lassic whatever (status is immuned, damage doesn't kill)
Rabbid Luigi attack

This kills as long as Lassic is seen as 4PCHP or less, which I... probably do but you could argue me! Lassic could also double after using Reinforce. My kneejerk is there isn't quite enough time, but open to arguments. Leaning RL for now. I guess Lassic could land sleep pre-Reinforce too, but since he's slower, he'd need it to last at least two turns, and only gets the chance on Weaken turns (of which there will be about 4).

Frejyadour (S5) vs Stella (Brig:LoR): Think so. Stella can win if you force non-Brig characters to not move when casting spells, but I'm pretty sure I don't.

Middle:
Hendrik (DQ11) vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4): Hendrik 2HKOs Hahn. Hahn is faster (barely). This means that Hendrik doesn't lose anything to block death, assuming +30 agility until I see more detailed notes on statusblockers. The thing is... Eliminate checks agility. And against Hendrik's awful speed, it should gain at least 20-30% hit, so close to 100. So even with those accessories, Elim is still turn 2? EDIT: See Random, forgot that DQ11 uses a system where speed does nothing past turn 1. That... probably tilts things. Does depend on specifics, but for now, this works.

Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Mario (Mario Rabbids): M-Power doesn't affect Jump so no, Mario doesn't do 975 damage in one turn. Even with a critical, the best he can manage is 731. .. actually, wait, no. The best he can do is actually Hero Sight + trigger bounce on his attack, which does over 1200. Bounce is 60%, so turn 2, and since HS has a two-turn cooldown, it's actually turn 4. So Setsuna has three turns to kill. Which... she surely does. Okay.

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Thief(male)(FFT): The FFT AI can indeed see reflect, so yeah, charm means Ophilia heals herself. And unfortunately, FFT charm is both quite smart and can use limited resources, so I can't even hype Ophilia saving up TP like I would against in-game status; if charmed, she'll blow it all either healing Thief or blowing herself up.
Cecil (FF4) vs Dorothea (FETH): See Snowfire/Jo'ou, but... it's worth noting that the Steel Sword+ is only 3 damage lower (so 28%), still doesn't get Dorothea doubled, and has 55 uses, as well as being dirt cheap... she could easily come in with five of those if you allow other characters to use brave/relics at all. I think that's too much pressure. Hell, she could pressure with iron, even... Cecil getting an extra attack break now and then doesn't help him because of the way the regen works. His only hope is to win a pure-attacking slugfest and I don't think he can.


Quote
I get being skeptical of Act 2 statusblockers in general, and if I'd known how popular the Act II interp would have been I'd have compiled a full list in the stat topic, but if someone brings up that yes, a specific statusblocker really did exist...  ah well, still a little salty about Luminary vs. Stella on that.

I don't really think the saltiness is justified when there's a lot of evidence that would need to be provided, and wasn't:
-how is this item crafted? My kneejerk is to only allow things crafted entirely from storeboughts, but maybe if something non-storebought is available in large numbers and isn't demanded for other things I could be argued into making exceptions. Still, this needs evidence!
-what is the stat hit for using it? Whatever standard is adopted for statusblockers would also need to be applied to non-statusblockers. Stat hits are often important in a fight involving a slower healer.
-Finally the legality of the accessory isn't the only thing the fight hinges on: there's also "is turn skip = faint" which I think I favour but far from certain; DQ turnskip is strictly one-turn only while faint is more of a paralysis-lite status (potentially lasting 3 turns). It's also quite possible that Stella could win via Charm.

I'm not opposed to changing my vote but hopefully you can see why I didn't feel there was enough evidence for me to overturn my initial kneejerk.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 05:28:55 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Cmdr_King

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Godlike:
Reicher Wallach (MK2) vs Yuna (FFX)- ... I suppose enough math could prove Reicher could stack his cards in a way that finished off an Aeon and also took out Yuna before her next turn but seems unlikely.
Myria (BoF3) vs Orlandu (FFT)

Heavy:
Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Lassic (PS4)- No vote
Frejyadour (S5) vs Stella (Brig:LoR)- No vote

Middle:
Hendrik (DQ11) vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4)- no vote
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Mario (Mario Rabbids)- No vote

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Thief(male)(FFT)
Cecil (FF4) vs Dorothea (FETH)
CK: She is the female you
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Random Consonant

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Godlike:
Reicher Wallach (MK2) vs Yuna (FFX) - There's a level of bullshit that Reicher isn't up to handling and aeon bullshit is definitely it.

Heavy:
nope

Middle:
Hendrik (DQ11) vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4) - Elim checking agility is probably enough, the agility hit Hendrik would have to take to resist ID should easily push it to turn 2 even if his pathetically low base wouldn't regardless.  e2: oh I guess Hendrik does 2HKO, yeah that and DQ11 speed being useless past first turn to me does swing it back in the other direction, Hahn's first turn shouldn't be so much faster that a lap wouldn't happen.

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Thief(male)(FFT)
Cecil (FF4) vs Dorothea (FETH) - Yeah this is long but I don't see how it's actually hard, it's not like 3H is actually that stingy on cash so Dorothea should easily be able to come in with enough swords to run Cecil out of healing.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 11:12:27 PM by Random Consonant »

Tide

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Godlike:
Reicher Wallach (MK2) vs Yuna (FFX) - Yuna gets a turn, so we all pretty much know what THAT means.

Light:
Cecil (FF4) vs Dorothea (FETH) - In the same vein as Aika vs Cecil, except this time, Doro's healing is infinite thanks to Renewal. His one shot is to run her out of weapon charges, but Steel, as NEB pointed out is 55 and TRAINING is 65 if it really comes down to that. This is about 20 kinds of pathetic, but what else should we expect from Super 'I want Thief to champ' aielman?
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SnowFire

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Dorothea: Sure, I'll buy the larger treasury.  I do suspect that if Dorothea went in with ONLY Iron Sword+s, then Cecil might be able to win the slugfest...  maybe...  but yeah, even reverting to Steel Sword+ should be enough to keep Cecil satisfactorily heal locked.

Elf, on last week: It's fine, of course.  I did say a *little* salty, and there are certainly cases of powerful status blocker accessories I don't allow (say, the Xenosaga III block-all-status accessories that are only available for the final dungeon and cost a lot of money - they can certainly be grinded up if you want, but nah).  My strong suspicion is that those Act II status-blockers are fairly trivial to create, but I'd have to go back and double-check and know for sure.  I do agree that seeing turn skip as not equivalent to Faint would be trouble, although I think that would require a pretty strict status equivalancy standard.  My whining was more about the comments about DQ11 having weak status blockers in Act II in general - which is true, to be sure, but also irrelevant after it's been established a specific status blocker does exist.  Suikoden I has awful status blockers but, at least per your old status blocking thread, if in some bizarre twist of fate a Suikoden I dueler needed to block Balloon to win...  well, they can do it!  And the fact that they're crap at status blocking otherwise doesn't matter, it's their lucky day.  (In the same way, Turn Skip specifically happens to be one of the statuses that can be flat-out blocked in Act II, if this is relevant.)

Note that AI Stella got her revenge on me just recently, getting some Faint-chaining action off with Ambush and another friend with Faint that double-fainted a Sea Serpent I'd put in the sea as bait, planning on using its 2-range hit everything move.  Ah well.  (Well, sort of, I sorta save scum reloaded, and then AI Stella did something dumber the next time for some reason.)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 12:58:47 PM by SnowFire »