Parties & Rivals 2 - Round 1

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, I understand that about Black Hole. My kneejerk is just to make tiebreaks against moves that are useless in-game+inflated on a setting -and- have little to no exhaustive mechanical testing to back up its inflation.

One other thing that -needs- to be stressed, though, is that Emma's resource depth does not exist. Her revival costs her -one third- of her MP pool and Great Booster is almost as onerous. Not to mention Edna has that Quick Hit property, which arguably lets her bypass Sucker idiocy when she gets a turn before Jane (plausible, GB lasts like two turns including the one it is cast and QH Edna is about as fast as GB'd Jane as long as you apply a sane TB cap, and gets faster the harsher you are with TB speed caps). Mental Break actually sounds like a -great- idea here, since, along with bypassing Sucker, it makes Emma run out even faster and eventually kicks Jane out of cheesing as well.

EDIT: Oh, there's a reason for using Follow Me! That allows Zed to benefit from the Great Booster damage buffing for an extra turn, since ACF lets you manipulate turn order BoF4-style. Not enough to prioritize it over Sucker, but it's there.

[MC50]

Couple of After Years/Zeromus DS notes, seeing as how my lurker skills can vote on it.

I don't have exact numbers.

AVERAGE HP = 3828

Edward = 83%
Palom = 84%
Ursula = 115%
Ceodore = 120%
Edge = 120%

Big Bang looks like it does around 95% Average. Though Palom does have above average magic defense.
Zeromus Flare Immunity is really hurting Palom's damage - His best bet is probably Quake, but that cuts his damage by a third. (Unless Zeromus immunes quake, in which case he'll have to with a level 3 elemental spell, which has a longer cast time.) If you allow Dualcast, he'll be great, but three people can get it, and they all want it.
Edward has 19 full party heals. After those are out, he is forced to use his much weaker High Potions, which are 25% party heals.
He can also multitarget Phoenix Downs, if he has to Hide a Big Bang or something. (Not likely to be useful, but it can work)
Ceodore Can either be an OK Physical attacker, or a backup healer/shell user.
Ursula is pretty much just average physical damage.
Ceodore and Ursula have an excellent combination attack, but I don't have damage numbers for it - I do know that it's charge time is very low, and it outdamages both of them attacking. Endgame it was 9999, but this is personal experience, compared to their physicals ~2500.
Edge is basically just a physical attacker/backup single target healer.

I think the team has enough variety to pull it off, though I'm not sure on the damage numbers for what would probably be considered DL legal equipment. Zeromus's black hole prevents buffing from being a great plan.

Basically, it comes down to this - Can Edward survive Big Bang/Meteor? If yes, team probably wins. If not, probably not.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Edna's double always includes a physical, so yeah, doubling to kill Jane off the bat isn't going to work. So instead she just hits Jane twice with Black Hole, 2HKOing her. I don't think this makes a big difference, especially since there's a pretty decent chance that someone gets caught in the blast of said magic. Emma doesn't have any revival or healing past her really crappy ST heal move off her terrible speed, and even if she Great Boosters herself Edna is faster with more recharge time so gets the second fatal attack off first. Although I guess Jane's second turn could be Follow Me... but then Edna is free to kill Emma anyway, and 1.5x recharge overcomes anything the other team does. It'd help if Zed could do anything better than hitting Edna for about 10-15% of her HP each turn.

[dude789]

Emma gets a full party full heal in Critical Heal, but it is egregiously expensive (It takes like 80% of her mp).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Edna's double always includes a physical, so yeah, doubling to kill Jane off the bat isn't going to work. So instead she just hits Jane twice with Black Hole, 2HKOing her. I don't think this makes a big difference, especially since there's a pretty decent chance that someone gets caught in the blast of said magic. Emma doesn't have any revival or healing past her really crappy ST heal move off her terrible speed, and even if she Great Boosters herself Edna is faster with more recharge time so gets the second fatal attack off first. Although I guess Jane's second turn could be Follow Me... but then Edna is free to kill Emma anyway, and 1.5x recharge overcomes anything the other team does. It'd help if Zed could do anything better than hitting Edna for about 10-15% of her HP each turn.

Emma actually -does- get full revival, I checked her complete Download list. It just costs 50 MP when she has 153 at endgame -and- running off -those- stats. Emma basically rams into everything she has having ridiculous costs (it certainly doesn't feel she has second-best MP in the party...).

[Magic Fanatic]

Option: Emma casts Anti-Magic Zone on her first turn.  Edna now about 4HKOs Jane (so adding in the 2HKO on the first turn, 3HKOs).  Zed's the one to deal all the damage.  Emma casts Great Booster on Zed the turn Jane's suspected to die.  Assuming NEB's 10% on low variance is Zed's Secret Sword as it currently stands, damage could add up for Zed as following:

Turn 1: Secret Sword (10% Damage) (10% Total)
Turn 2: Secret Sword (10% Damage) (20% Total)
Turn 3: Secret Sword (10% Damage) (30% Total)
Turn 4: Great Booster'd Secret Sword (20% Damage) (50% Total)
Turn 5: Great Booster'd Full Power Star Blast (~51% damage) (101% Total)

Zed would probably get to see all those turns, as he has crazy HP compared to Jane and Emma and Edna needs to be focusing on those two or she dies anyway.  If you assume Secret Sword deals at least 11% on average, then it only takes 4 turns to kill off that.

Other assumtions: Great Booster fairly flatly doubles Physical damage, Edna can't kill Zed before he kills her thanks to Magic Zone.

Alternately, Edna casts Offense Zone (+50% Physical damage?) on her first turn, and Great Booster on her second.

Turn 1: Secret Sword (10% Damage) (10% Total)
Turn 2: Offense Zone Secret Sword (15% Damage) (25% Total)
Turn 3: Offense Zone Great Booster Star Blast (~76% Damage) (101% Total)

Feel free to call me out on any of my numbers, I not 100% that these are right.  Still, I pieced these assumptions together after a bit of research, so I have at least SOME confidence in them, though SI's guide has been known to be wrong on figures before. 

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Anti-Magic reduces magical damage by 40%, not halves, so that may not be a 4HKO to Jane, but a 3HKO. That also pretty much begs for Edna casting Mental Break instead, which is MT, gives zero fucks to Anti-Magic and shuts Emma off from a Great Booster and a revival -and- completely shuts down the full healing option.

[dude789]

I also think you're underestimating Edna's ability by a bunch. GBed Star Blast with the force ability only does 1.5 PCHP and Edna should have substantially more than 3.0 PCHP.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I doubt it's even -that- good. Secret Sword's like 43% to average durability before Great Booster, GB would need to raise damage by like 3.3x for it to deal 1.5x PC HP. Star Blast, maybe, but Star Blast can only be used ever as a finisher unless Zed wants to die.

[dude789]

Sorry, meant Star Blast. Got the two mixed up.

[Clear Tranquil]

@ Snow, I know, I just wanted to chew the cud/gnaw at you 

@ Yoshi, Lapras solo no I don't think she gets a turn, I'd be extremely surprised if she survives a full Peppita Power Dance > Faerie Friend chain along with Albel and Adray throwing in their best damage for what it's worth also boosted by Power Dance. Lapras in a three player game again falls down to status respect and really I don't think I'd throw Snorlax in there because if Char and Venasaur are not around to attempt to tie Peppita/Adray up w/th status the Pokes risk Peppita wreaking w/th chaos/freeze or ID. For me hmm ... say Charizard/Venasaur/Lapris. Venasaur's Sleep is 75% which is definitely turn one to me but Peppita/Albel's status %s are even higher than that, Adray as well if you allow him levelled Ice Needles or Deep Freeze. As for Charizard I'm not sure if the prevent target's turn move always works (and hmm I was wondering if a paralysis blocker would work against it anyway, it does seem like a paralysis like move) but ... say the RNG is it's favour, Char Fire Spins Peppita, Albel Aura Wall chains Lapras, chaos sticks, Venasaur sleeps Adray, Peppita can't move, Lapras can't act, Adray is asleep, Char is Fire Spinning, Albel Aura Walls Venusaur, Venusaur can't act, Peppita can't move, Lapras can't act, Adray is asleep, Charizard is Fire Spinning, Albel Aura Walls Charizard ... Peppita/Adray are going to move/wake up/get turns sooner or later and the SO3rs should be able to turn the tide from there. Of course if you don't respect SO3 status quite as much as I do it's possible it misses/doesn't work every round .... but then same applies to the Pokes >_> Also I have a different SO3 speed interp from the one in the stat topic (which is based on the character running around the battle arena a few times, where they have already been active and running/moving a while) I take their base off the bat movement speed and ranged attack/skill speeds to determine the speed of their initial turn and Adray definitely has the worst at the start of battle movement speed after Sophia and Maria, if you're controlling someone like Nel/Fayt in game then switch to somebody like Cliff/Peppita and then Sophia/Maria/Adray at the start of battle there is a definite difference between them. SO3 speeds probably go something like Fayt/Nel > Mirage/Roger > Albel/Cliff/Peppita > Sophia/Maria/Adray for me but yeah as far as personal experience goes Peppita is definitely faster than Sophia/Maria/Adray off the bat. So mmm probably average for Albel/Peppita w/th skill speeds to break tie breaks =) In a turn based setting Adray might get faster after time/a few rounds but no way I'd rest him faster than most of the cast right away >_>

NEB is right though this is a weird fight, heavily based on status and speed interps~

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Just noticed one thing. Both Magic's analyses entirely ignore Edna's fast recharge, she's 3-2ing Emma no matter what. It needs stressed that, without Follow Me!, Emma does -not- get a second turn before Edna gets three (even post-GB. Seriously, GB'd Emma is about 140 ACF speed, which probably isn't even 80% average), which, by that point, equals either Jane or -Emma- being killed regardless of anything the opposition does (only way Anti-Magic Zone goes before Edna is with Follow Me!, which equals instant death to Emma because Edna's perfectly happy to thump a double in order to kill her and physicals are honey badgers for AMZ. And AMZ does -not- stop Jane from being 3HKOed at worst unless it goes before Edna. In fact, if Edna deals 56% PC HP to Jane or higher at base, it doesn't stop a 3HKO period. That's not good when every Black Hole cast risks hitting someone else, it's entirely possible both Jane and Emma could be dead by the time Edna clocks her down. -Unlikely-, but any spillover damage is very bad for the team). And Follow Me!, of course, as SF points out, is a Bridget.

Her first turn is allegedly slower than Frank as well, so there's an argument she might be slower than Emma (on turn 1).

Noticed it one day late, but... while this could even mathematically make sense depending on how harsh on SDs and TB speed you are (and even then, only on the harshest way possible to view it in terms of overall effect)? Holistically, this is a "fuck no". SH3 speed spread is amazingly narrow, even moreso in the earlygame (Frank isn't even game-worst speed, and he's like, what, 90-91% average speed effectively at endgame, with Curvy Hilda clocking out at 89-85% below him? I'm not sure I'd see Edna as below 85% at worst, truth be told, and I tend to kneejerk her a bit higher if anything because curve), and Emma's game-worst speed in ACF is horrifyingly noticeable. I'm not sure she even outspeeds -anyone- ever in the endgame spreads, her REA is awful enough that she gets outpaced by a lot of -midgame randoms- at this juncture, to give you an idea. Emma even gets some slack cut because the SDs are so huge and she gets less slow than she should rightfully be within the game's confines.

[Magic Fanatic]

I will admit that I did forget about the quick recharge, but in that case, turn 1 Sucker and then turn 2 Follow Me?  But meh, I'm already convinced in Edna's favor.

[SnowFire]

Closing this tomorrow or so most likely.  Realize it's a bit earlier than might be expected but think most of the votes are already in.

Jo'ou: It was an idle thought, but yes, I agree that Edna should be seen as faster and that's the assumption I ran with afterward.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, I know. It's just kinda jarring to me that the idea could even be entertained, since -most- number interps support otherwise -and- the intuitive precedent sets it all the way against Emma backed up by in-game performance.

[SnowFire]

Well, it's a general problem with bosses which are slower than the slowest party member.  How slow is that, exactly?  Hard to say.  Just SH3 has the tight speed curve + CTB in its favor to mean "not THAT slow." 

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

She's probably somewhere around the high 80% to 90%, I'd guess. But this just emphasizes your point.

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3)
Jenna Angel (Digital Devil Saga) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia - Somewhat a gut reaction, but Jenna outside of a few scenarios is not great with the killing of things. Sure, they are in trouble in Puniyo goes down, but then Puniyo will just avoid the 2nd form I think.

Heavy
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Myria (Breath of Fire 3)
The Dark One (Arc the Lad 2) vs. Kornell 3 + Violetta 1 (Grandia 3)
Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia) vs. Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)- Okay, generally don't see plot weapons as unbreakable. Does Yuri not really have one of these? Because if he does and Orlando can't break, but may be pretty easy.

Middle
Ness, Paula, Jeff, Poo (Earthbound) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile)
Apocryapha (Radiant Historia) vs. Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz)
Melfice (Grandia 2) vs. Stocke, Aht, Eruca (Radiant Historia)

Light
Zed, Jane, Emma (WA:ACF) vs. Edna (Shadow Hearts 3)
Serge, Glenn, Irenes (Chrono Cross) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8)-
Pikachu, Blastoise, Charizard, Venusaur, Snorlax, Lapras (Pokemon) vs. Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3)

[SnowFire]

Dhyer: Hmm, I suppose I should think not kneejerk.  Marcello's around 1.5-2 PCHP normally, so 6-8 PCHP here.  He's got a once per turn MT 3HKO + a 3HKO.  Let's also hold Meteorite Armbands against him (pretty sure you should have 1, possibly even 2 by now) and call him below average speed though this may be a bit cruel.  Turn 1, CC cast goes for damage.  T1 Marcello, MT + ST someone.  Note this is threatening a KO next turn on whoever he wants if they're not fully healed.  If Team CC plays it safe, turn 2 Irenes & Serge blow their healing on Serge & Glenn to ensure they live to turn 3.  Marcello...  does more MT, and Irenes is probably dead.  Turn 3, Serge & Glenn blitz, and if Marcy isn't dead by now (not CC Marcy), team CC pretty much loses.  Now, Glenn & Serge do have among the best damage in the game, but doing 6-8 PCHP in 3 turns is a lot to ask for...

[Clear Tranquil]

Actual votes -

Godlike
Orphan (Final Fantasy 13) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4)

Heavy
White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5) vs. Yuri, Kurando, Joachim, and Anastasia (Shadow Hearts 2)
Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia) vs. Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)

Middle
Ness, Paula, Jeff, Poo (Earthbound) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile)
Melfice (Grandia 2) vs. Stocke, Aht, Eruca (Radiant Historia)

Light

Serge, Glenn, Irenes (Chrono Cross) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8)
Pikachu, Blastoise, Charizard, Venusaur, Snorlax, Lapras (Pokemon) vs. Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3)

If it's any consolation Magic, Edna's probably sweeping this whole field anyway >__>

[Pyro]

Godlike
Orphan (Final Fantasy 13) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4)
Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier) vs. Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier)
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3): Belial can 4-D Pocket away the big damage dealers, but the lack of MT kind of sinks her. If you are generous to WA4 single-hex attacks when targetting more PCs then there are hexes, maybe she can do it.
Jenna Angel (Digital Devil Saga) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2): It is fairly hard to manage her, but Shifting in/out will help a lot. Eventually the super-moves come out to play, that + Glaciation is a mean thing.

Heavy
White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5) vs. Yuri, Kurando, Joachim, and Anastasia (Shadow Hearts 2): Wasn't SH2 revival of the badass "You keep your CT" variety, so that Kurando can revive Yuri who instantly gets a turn? Doesn't that kind of screw with team FF5?
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Myria (Breath of Fire 3): Ghaleon's doubled physical does more damage than Myria, negating her speed advantage with his double-acting.
The Dark One (Arc the Lad 2) vs. Kornell 3 + Violetta 1 (Grandia 3): Oh god.
Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia) vs. Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics): Ramza and Orlandu and Mustadio team up to kill Yuri before he acts, say. Then... Estelle buffs Rita who brings down the Meteorz. Aegis Shield hype will work I guess. ToV can change equips at any time, though. For all that most folks only let the FEers do that.

Middle
Ness, Paula, Jeff, Poo (Earthbound) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile): Do they have the PP for this? Bottle Rockets were ITD, but checked Speed instead of defense, right? Vote change required otherwise.
Apocryapha (Radiant Historia) vs. Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz)
Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World) vs. Exor (Super Mario RPG): MT matchwinning Sleep? Guess that seals it, albeit it's kinda cheap. there ain't nothing the CSTW folks can do about it unless Dacre's Regen also removed status which I don't think it did.
Melfice (Grandia 2) vs. Stocke, Aht, Eruca (Radiant Historia): With revival, damage magic, and switching I think they can pull it off. And they can force him into Traps too, if they have a combo chain opening with magic!

Light
Zed, Jane, Emma (WA:ACF) vs. Edna (Shadow Hearts 3)
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics): Boss vs. SRPG boss. The durability difference, it burns.
Serge, Glenn, Irenes (Chrono Cross) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8): Not really sure but don't the CC folks not truly combine their turns? i.e. they aren't 3x as effective when working together? That's fatal when facing an MT boss.
Pikachu, Blastoise, Charizard, Venusaur, Snorlax, Lapras (Pokemon) vs. Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3): 3 on 1 is nasty business, even when you have to do it 6 times in a row.

[Dhyerwolf]

Dhyer: Hmm, I suppose I should think not kneejerk.  Marcello's around 1.5-2 PCHP normally, so 6-8 PCHP here.  He's got a once per turn MT 3HKO + a 3HKO.  Let's also hold Meteorite Armbands against him (pretty sure you should have 1, possibly even 2 by now) and call him below average speed though this may be a bit cruel.  Turn 1, CC cast goes for damage.  T1 Marcello, MT + ST someone.  Note this is threatening a KO next turn on whoever he wants if they're not fully healed.  If Team CC plays it safe, turn 2 Irenes & Serge blow their healing on Serge & Glenn to ensure they live to turn 3.  Marcello...  does more MT, and Irenes is probably dead.  Turn 3, Serge & Glenn blitz, and if Marcy isn't dead by now (not CC Marcy), team CC pretty much loses.  Now, Glenn & Serge do have among the best damage in the game, but doing 6-8 PCHP in 3 turns is a lot to ask for...

Yeah, may be overrating depending on Serge's damage. Apparentally he gets auto-crits with a slightly weaker weapon that I didn't know about and auto-crit. Assuming a 50% increase, Serge pumps out a lot of damage (and I thought that his combo with Glenn was supposed to be pretty brutal, but no idea on specifics).

So...I guess at worst, the team can have Irenes last for 1 turn of attacking, Glenn and Serge for 2 and 3 (one gets one, one the other) with some healing needed.

Probably depends on what kind of element usage you allow, but I do allow at least an upgraded CurePlus for Serge and Irenes has one shot of healing. But I guess that probably does fall short. Vote changed (barring X-Strike being crazy good damage or Marcello secretly being a ghost).

[MalcolmMasher]

Round two may be up, but dog gone it, I spent far too long refining the strategy for Team Cthulu versus Exor and I'm going to post it.

Middle
Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World) vs. Exor (Super Mario RPG)

The key is the Cursed Sword, for the inital 140% Strength on Cthulu and 1.5x damage taken by Exor & Co.

Umi goes first and stuns Neosquid with Siren's Call. Cthulu one-shots Left Eye by a comfortable margin (140% Str and x1.5 from Insane), breaking invincibility. Right Eye needs to kill October so that she can't Death Exor, and does so. Dacre casts Strength Hymn on Cthulu (now at 180%).

Umi uses Elec Strike on Neosquid, Cthulu follows up with Dark Strike. Neosquid is down. Right Eye kills Umi or Cthulu, his choice (Dacre can tank one spell, even at 1.2x.) Dacre revives October.

If Cthulu is alive, he's at 170% Strength and one-shots Right Eye. If Umi is alive, she Silences Right Eye. Either way, October gets the turn she needs to Death Exor, and I believe that's a wrap.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hmm, totally forgot about Insane Strength's boost against multiple targets. That does make things interesting. Everything about that analysis seems right, except that Left Eye will revive the second turn it spends dead... which means it is alive and well for turn 3, and can silence October if Right Eye is killed or silenced itself. I forget if Exor can reset invincibility during this time, but I suspect he can (which makes silence not good enough, if I'm right, so Right Eye should kill Cthulhu turn 2). Of course this does leave Dacre with another turn, which he can use to revive the previously killed PC or unsilence October. But the next turn Neosquid revives to full, with no Siren's Call as an option any more... not sure if he can be killed again immediately. Silence seems like a pretty valid option here, though... I had forgotten it would work on Exor's parts. This could possibly matter for Melfice this week too, though I kinda doubt it.

Very good fight, regardless.