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Author Topic: Closing time?  (Read 17208 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Closing time?
« on: August 21, 2010, 02:36:21 AM »
(Disclaimer: Super is at least 50% to blame for this. Act shocked.)

The DL has been going for about 60 seasons. Over that time, we've seen the general interest in the main tournament itself rise, and then fall. It's pretty much impossible to ignore the fact that interest has been falling for quite some time now. Just glancing over the results from last week, half the matches received 20 votes or less. Vote totals are pretty much back where they were in the first year of the DL. Season topics often have rather muted interest compared to the past, with just a few people participating in discussions when there were once many. It's been ages since I've seen someone new join for the sake of the main tournament. We still have newcomers, but they're coming for LFT, or mafia, or just general discussion about RPGs. Many weeks we have fewer total votes than there are people in chat at any given moment.

Less interest means it's harder to get people to do site work. I know I personally am more than guilty of doing this; I rarely write any more, and stopped running noms about a dozen seasons ago. It was so difficult to get work done that we had to drop the idea of requiring missing comments. And now, it's getting quite difficult to get regular writeups as well.

Is it still worth it? Maybe. I know I personally still enjoy discussing DL matches at least, even if I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few who are left. But it's becoming quite clear that this is getting increasingly difficult on the few staff members who still do real work (a number I won't claim to be part of, any more). If we decide it's worth it, there's little reason the DL can't continue for quite a while longer. It requires a certain commitment of work, but if people want to go for it, it's certainly a workable commitment.

Or, we could agree we've had a good run of it, and finally give the main tournament a (permanent) rest. We've lasted over 60 seasons, something close to 7 years. This is far longer than I think most of us would have dared hope for when we first started, far longer than the tournament we sought to emulate lasted. It might be just time to move on.

There's a third option, which would be to further reduce the sitework, most likely by getting rid of writeups altogether so that the DL resembles the last days of Not Ranked. I'm personally not a fan of this option - at that point, might as well just have a board tournament, rather than a shadow of what we once had - but it exists.

Just to be clear, whatever we decide, the RPGDL forums and chat aren't going to be closed. Both of those are still as active as they've ever been. This discussion purely concerns the voting tournament that takes place at www.rpgdl.com itself.

Thoughts?

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superaielman

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2010, 02:39:37 AM »
I pretty strongly agree with Elfboy. The interest just isn't thee for the most part, and totals/group interest match this. reducing the work with missing comments didn't stimulate interest at all, and it's painful to get writeups outside of the handful that are working.

I was willing to keep the site going as long as people care, but not at this point. So yeah, I'm good with closing things down. Don't especially mind what people want to put in it's place, as long as it's PG(13)ish for content.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 02:48:12 AM by superaielman »
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 02:58:23 AM »
I'm of the mind we don't need the DL tourney for the community to thrive anymore. Board tourneys will always exist, and hey, it's not like there isn't other content or there isn't a chat/board we can meet up and geek out. Think we may just finish this season for completeness' sake and call it a day.
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Dunefar

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2010, 03:02:51 AM »
Agreeing with the others. The DL has changed and things have moved on.

The only suggestion may be some sort of ultimate championship or final season, but I don't know if there's interest.
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 03:11:57 AM »
I know I'm definitely one who has had his interest decrease dramatically in the DL and mostly just votes, and only really does write ups when whipped too (well...that was always the case, but part of this was because it made the editors work easier by NOT editing my write ups for a while) and honestly, I just don't feel that interested much anymore.

I haven't spoken in the season topic in like 2 years or something.  From what I can tell, there's a select few who are still interested, but the amount of effort I see on Fridays just to get write ups done...its definitely telling and I think now would be a good time to finally pack up and move on.
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 03:15:10 AM »
I'd support a DL-like setup in the forums (a "Ranked" version of CK's Futurama Tourney) but otherwise yeah, I've no issues here.

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 03:36:12 AM »
A few points. I'm guilty for not doing write ups or claiming write ups. Part of it is actually being busy (whee University), the other part is just general apathy some times. Duellers get in that you don't know, or don't care about, so you don't write or participate in discussions and it grows when it happens over and over.

I'm in favour of shutting down the main tournament at this point because yeah, it's not worth keeping around for the few people who have to slug all the work (Tai/Super/Snow etc.) especially if the interest is waning badly. A DL-like set up in the forums works of course. Everything will be done less formally and upgrades and downgrades might not even exist, but it will keep that spirit alive without draining others and there's a lot more freedom to be had. Of course being one of the people who's pretty much apathetic to the main tourney at this point, take that as you will. Option 3 is nice in theory. But when you realize that the main tourney has gone to point of where NR was in its last days, just how much hope is there and how much is denial at work here? The records and everything we should keep around for sure though.

Running a final season might be nice, if only just so its like the icing on the cake for the closure. But same thing. If people don't feel like going for it, I say, don't bother.

Not much else to add other than that. I think if we want to attract more members, the main tourney at this point isn't doing anyone any favours - as was mentioned in chat, there's lots of various things people do on the forums and it might be better to advertise though than trying to keep a sinking ship afloat.
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2010, 03:49:11 AM »
I'm still good for putting in the work, in all honesty

Scar

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2010, 05:16:25 AM »
I guess James wasn't enough, huh!?

~

My thoughts...

Why don't you just make the DL tournament happen twice a year or something?

It will build up some interest like that I would imagine? Maybe?
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Monkeyfinger

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2010, 06:04:21 AM »
Put in on ice for a while (more than the one season break we took a long time ago) or

I guess James wasn't enough, huh!?

~

My thoughts...

Why don't you just make the DL tournament happen twice a year or something?

It will build up some interest like that I would imagine? Maybe?

this. I don't like the idea of completely killing the main tourney for good or stripping it down further, but after all this time, continuing to run the same thing over and over is just not working out. I still really like the main tourney, but I feel so alone in caring. Everyone just seems so burnt out. Perhaps letting it rest for long periods would help matters. We might also have more energy in us to try and dredge up new voters when it comes back, after being well rested and whatnot.

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2010, 06:39:52 AM »
01:22] <CmdrKing> Stretching things out wouldn't help at all, at least from a work standpoint.  And would make things worse from an interest standpoint.
[01:22] <Monkeyfinger> Yeah that was Scar's idea in the forum topic, which I kind of liked. Run the seasons like we do now, but have huge gaps of downtime in between them.
[01:23] <CmdrKing> Anyway, as long as nobody picks up on the "make it like last season of NR" concept we've averted the worst possible outcome.
[01:24] <MishaArsellecLune> Better idea than just dropping it altogether if you ask me.  >.>
[01:24] <MishaArsellecLune> Hmm, twice a year?  Not a bad idea I guess.
[01:25] <CmdrKing> To my mind having the shambling, hollow husk that was last season NR is no different from having nothing at all, except it's painfully obvious nobody even cares then.
[01:26] <Tide|Superisaquitter> My thoughts more or less CK
[01:26] <CmdrKing> That said, truthfully if people really want to not have the DL there, something else needs to go in.  I don't think having semi-annual tourneys really offsets the need for regular content, either.  But... that'd involve something even MORE ambitious.
[01:27] <MishaArsellecLune> I somewhat care about the tourney.  I don't care about the writeups.
[01:27] <CmdrKing> The simplest answer is, of course, turning the wiki into an actual thing.  But good god that'd take some work to make presentable.
[01:28] <CmdrKing> And I'm not entirely sure who'd be qualified for it.
[01:28] <MishaArsellecLune> Presentable how?
[01:28] <CmdrKing> Organized.  Coherent.
[01:29] <CmdrKing> Preferably prettied up, but that's not necessary in the initial stages.

Just my initial thought after a brief period of emo.  Shared here so it need not be hidden in the dens of chat.
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2010, 07:44:36 AM »
I like Scar's idea too. I don't really deserve to have a say since I haven't done work in 20 seasons, but yeah. >_>;;
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2010, 09:03:29 AM »
This forum does not have an auto-sadness icon!

No more rankings!
No more nom nights!
No Soul Nomad!
No Mana Khemia 2!
No Tales of Vesperia! (I of course realize none of these were ever guaranteed ranking!)
No more upgrade baits!
No more trollops in need of wins and runs!

Well, I don't completely mind the work, and I'd miss it to hell. If we were going to decide on a final season, I'd definitely say more than 1 season out.

Running 2 a year (as opposed to the current turn around of 6?)...well, the RPGP always felt the most frustrating when it just randomly went away and said wait a while. Granted, I guess the planning wouldn't be as random.

Getting votes in the board tournies can make the DL proper seem practically thriving. I guess one could make it fancier on the boards.

Not really sure how the wiki ideas works! But yes, at 1 AM, I'm basically just good for semi-naysaying other ideas and semi coherent babbling. I guess because partly Super brought this up before con and I semi realized that without the DL there is the slight off chance I could actually put work into making my own RPGs with the redirected energy (But likely not! That takes real work!)
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SageAcrin

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2010, 02:46:48 PM »
Breaks aren't going to help. We need a major format overhaul(A different kind of duelling) to make people care or an outright focus change. I'll admit, this is just my opinion, but breaks never helped me any...

Not that we have to actually shut down the site in any true way-just stop arena comments. As of last check, no one has complained about nom night work in a while(Twil taking it over and putting it into a managable format is awesome), and I don't suppose if worst came to worst that the DL would mind doing group work for nom pools once every month and a half(and indeed I believe we've done this).

Ranking topics are generally interesting and the amount of work involved in them doesn't have to be as high if no one is worrying quite so much about *precisely* how many writers we have(as no one will be writing.). Although if that ends up too much work there's no reason not to kill rankings as an idea(as this is still superior to shutting down the site).

In short, shutting down is basically not needed, so much as shutting down writeups. The board tournament comparison is unfair, the site's handling system is clearly both *less* work than a board tournament(now that it's in place anyways, it wasn't to make) and generally more polished thanks to the ridiculous 1000~ pictures we've already got inserted. It is kinda sad compared to what was there before, sure, but the DL in general is. It has been gradually getting less and less interest and less and less interesting over the years. Not it's fault, it just happens.

I personally think it would be a very good idea to do that.

I'd really like to see a focus shift of some kind, optimally, as well. It would be interesting to try to expand stat topics to focus, not just on duelling performance, but instead to give you an idea of what characters are like throughout a game. Almost no FAQs do this worth a damn; They slam down a bunch of stats on you at *best*, without really explaining them in a coherently-written manner, and at worst give vague and  often ridiculous opinions as to why Ace is the best character evar! about characters.

Expanding current stat topics isn't really too bad of a job in many cases, as often stat topics list even lesser importance skills(which matter more in-game). It's already over halfway there, in other words. Mechanics we're also good at, and obscure as hell RPGs we actually probably can construct better guides for than GFAQs in general. It'd be neat.

Edit:

Quote
Don't especially mind what people want to put in it's place, as long as it's PG(13)ish for content.

Awwwwwwwwww but we are the CLEARLY PERFECT PEOPLE to do an all yuri all the time fanfiction site.

Tai can head the project.

Edit 2:

Also, to be clear, I'm saying remove arena writeups as a better than closing idea. Nothing else. Replace the site construction fully and make the original tourney a forum thing? Better. Overhaul the tourney? Better. Just closing the site without anything in it's place? Worse.

But I still think that the main site is going to get more votes than forum tourneys. We still get 50~ votes, and glancing Tourneys the most posts I see in one is 30~(assuming those are all votes, which they are not likely). Even if it cuts that in half it's as good as a board tournament.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 03:07:14 PM by SageAcrin »
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 05:41:02 PM »
Not really sure how the wiki ideas works! But yes, at 1 AM, I'm basically just good for semi-naysaying other ideas and semi coherent babbling. I guess because partly Super brought this up before con and I semi realized that without the DL there is the slight off chance I could actually put work into making my own RPGs with the redirected energy (But likely not! That takes real work!)

For the wiki and some other ideas that have come up... and come up before in the previous topic to this effect... the DL closing wouldn't make a hell of a lot of difference, it seems to me. Like other people have said, they don't do much writing anymore. There are tons of people that could have worked on what was discussed last time, shifting the site focus, drafting/designing the new layout, etc. They didn't. Hell, nearly a full blueprint was left detailing a new site layout that pulled focus away from the arena. Nothing came of it. It wasn't the DL proper that held people back. It was apathy, it was people being busy with real lives, etc.

As for the only 2 a year thing... I'd say maybe 3 or 4 a year if we come to that (Cut the number we do in half, basically). Breaks don't really help, but it's better than nothing. Having the site break down for a couple weeks last year (or was it the year before?) really, really hurt. Then soon afterwards we took a week or two break for the tweaks to the season layout where the only explanation was on the forums. Those two events are where we lost most of our casuals, not that we weren't losing them already...

I'm still good to do the work, so I'm pretty much with Sage and Dhyer. After what happened last time, I have somewhat less confidence in seeing people step up and put the work in. But hey, maybe someone will do it just to spite me. I honestly welcome that at this point.

superaielman

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2010, 05:59:39 PM »
Quote
Nothing came of it. It wasn't the DL proper that held people back. It was apathy, it was people being busy with real lives, etc.

Yeah, this is accurate. Just at this point, I don't think the amount of interest being put into the site justifies keeping it open. We can remove arena writeups (Which will not help interest but will help with the work side), but I don't think it'll stimulate interest in the site. Most of the core group just doersn't care at this point, and nothing I can think of will help that.

In my case, I just am not interested in putting in the amount of work in general, with interest and debate pretty much gone.
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2010, 06:04:50 PM »
I agree actually.  I don't think anything would be raised to replace the current content of the DL because no one can be arsed to get it done.  I also, however, want to establish some thoughts on potential outcomes.  Like, maybe a hierarchy.

The worst possible outcome is putting out site content in which it's obvious the creators (that's us) just don't give a fuck.  That's the "just cut writeups entirely" solution.

The bad outcome is cutting site content entirely.  Having nothing going up onto what is ostensibly the front page is the path to atrophy and, ultimately, the death of this community.

The kinda sucky outcome is reducing the amount of updating on the site.  While having semi or even quarter annual updates is better than nothing, it's slow enough that I still think it'll drive some people away.

The neutral outcome is finding different content which can be updated regularly but not at set intervals.  This can be done in conjunction with a reduced update schedule or alone.  It's ultimately the most work-intensive option, but at the same time the work is frontloaded (mostly getting stuff we already have into a coherent, presentable form), so if by some miracle it did happen it'd be much easier to maintain than the current system.

The best outcome would be people to stop being lazy and actually play RPGs, do writeups, shore up their voting, and generally remember we have a great website here.  Sadly, anti-RPG sentiment is too pervasive to ever make THIS happen.  Just sayin'.

I don't know what will or even should happen.  But, those have been my thoughts, so they have been shared.
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2010, 06:06:26 PM »
Awwwwwwwwww but we are the CLEARLY PERFECT PEOPLE to do an all yuri all the time fanfiction site.

This gets my vote.


More seriously, I like something somewhere between Sage and Scar. Dunno exactly where I am, and it's not like I do any actual work aside from some exceedingly rare stat topic stuff, but it's not like anyone seems to want to do write-ups that much.

Of course doing the tournament only twice a year means we'd probably have a lot more motivation to do write-ups, but I'd like to have the tournaments scheduled fairly well to avoid what Dhyer said about the RPGP. I keep saying I'll contribute SOMETHING and then never living up to it due to being a lazy SOB, maybe I could work up the motivation with a looser schedule >_>
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2010, 06:14:06 PM »
I had a large post typed and my internet glitched.

I want to see the tournament stay, but alot of the fighters cut (yes, I said that) Rank mostly newer games and stuff like FF and Pokemon.

Also, I have ties to the people running Anime Nebraskon. I can draw up a bunch of interest for this site if you are looking for new members! There are lots of RPG players that go to the convention. I could run a panel at the con :P

I wish I was a better writer, cause I would write for you guys to give you a break.

Edit: I just came to vote, and it says voting is down. When is it going to be up?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 06:17:12 PM by alanna82 »

SageAcrin

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2010, 06:31:14 PM »
Quote
The worst possible outcome is putting out site content in which it's obvious the creators (that's us) just don't give a fuck.  That's the "just cut writeups entirely" solution.

The bad outcome is cutting site content entirely.  Having nothing going up onto what is ostensibly the front page is the path to atrophy and, ultimately, the death of this community.

The kinda sucky outcome is reducing the amount of updating on the site.  While having semi or even quarter annual updates is better than nothing, it's slow enough that I still think it'll drive some people away.

The neutral outcome is finding different content which can be updated regularly but not at set intervals.  This can be done in conjunction with a reduced update schedule or alone.  It's ultimately the most work-intensive option, but at the same time the work is frontloaded (mostly getting stuff we already have into a coherent, presentable form), so if by some miracle it did happen it'd be much easier to maintain than the current system.

The best outcome would be people to stop being lazy and actually play RPGs, do writeups, shore up their voting, and generally remember we have a great website here.  Sadly, anti-RPG sentiment is too pervasive to ever make THIS happen.  Just sayin'.

Reality checking in here; People don't actually do most of these things unless you force them by and large, and haven't for thirty seasons.

There's no question that you're right on paper-optimally it would be best if magically everyone regained their interest in a concept we've been doing for over 300 weeks worth of matches(Ignoring, of course, the people that followed the RPGP). Realism steps in and backhands you across the face around this point. There are television shows that pay their writers tons of money that get sick of it in 300 weeks. They have, you know, not every week schedules.

(Edit: Though, yes, they do a lot more work. Then again most of them still don't last 300 weeks.)

Reducing updates by this stage-when people are already not interested in it-is not a good way to boost interest. It is a good way to make people forget it exists at all, far better than simply killing writeups. Writeups make a page look empty and, yes, less cared about. But the page is still there and open for voting. Something that updates with over a month in gaps makes you forget to check it. Makes you stop caring as much about it. Kills your interest dead. Anyone who follows webcomics would know! >_>

Cutting creative site content sucks but to judge by results it hasn't actually changed the amount of voters much. I'm not sure what that says. But it's true. Arena may or may not, it's hard to say. We stopped Arena for NR in part because of the massive lack of interest in it as well as the massive amount of work that wasn't getting done at all.

That isn't to say that I don't agree with you on the neutral part, though, and I do say that the new concept idea is the best way to go. Nothing wrong with running a stripped down version of the tournament at it's barebones level too, as it leads to interest in a related concept and gives people multiple reasons to come here. But this also requires the most relative creative work. Then again we kinda do it out of just being interested casually already, so.

Edit:

Alanna: Slight technical issue thanks to the week break-the site thinks that the week it's on right now already passed. So, it thinks the week that was just put into the site already ended. Oops.

Need to get an admin in and look at it, it'll be fixed soon I'm sure.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 06:39:16 PM by SageAcrin »
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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2010, 06:35:42 PM »
I SAID it wasn't realistic.

Using your TV show analogy though... well, most shows get cancelled after 5 or 6 seasons when no one can write it well anymore.  The NR solution would be akin to not cancelling the show, but instead firing all the writers and producing season upon season of clip show episodes.  It's soulless and smacks of laziness worse than a simple dignified ending would be.

Edit: I wonder.  If we were to actually shut down, would that motivate people to put real work into whatever ideas they have for a successor?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 06:39:53 PM by Cmdr_King »
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2010, 06:41:03 PM »
You said the last one wasn't realistic.

I was more going for most of the rest not being realistic either, and the optimal outcome of spontaneous interest not only being non-realistic but kinda mean to beat people for not having, which is a bit how that came across. :| It's not worth blaming people for lack of interest; They probably don't like it either, and certainly can't help it.
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2010, 06:46:26 PM »
If you guys do decide to close down the tournament, how about making the final season not be nominations and intead take the X highest ranked of each division? Or something like "the best of the DL"

If your going to end it, End it with a BANG, not a whimper!

Sage: Thanks for checking that.

Do you guys want me to advertise at the convention and/or on other websites? If other new people get interested, maybe they can take over some stuff. Its like when they plan Nebraskon, if someone leaves, new people end up helping and volunteering. I think its the lack of new people volunteering thats the problem here, leading to burn out.

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2010, 06:47:36 PM »
*shrug* It sounds much less bitter than I feel.  Logic has nothing to do with it dangit!
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

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Re: Closing time?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2010, 06:50:26 PM »
Whereas, I'm still coming off burnout so bad that I still can't manage to care about results, despite my best attempts and three? seasons of break. Not that I don't want to, I just kinda stare blankly and can't think of anything to write.

In a sense I'm kinda at the opposite extreme here.
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

"Forget other people's feelings, this is fun and life is but a game and we nought but players in it.  CHECKMATE!  King me and that is Uno." - Grefter