Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 410673 times)

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #775 on: October 04, 2009, 10:15:54 PM »
The idea is to make Black Magic be the magic damage skillset that isn't very MP efficient but gets spells off relatively quickly compared to Summon, or Meteor.)
Wait, what?  Black Magic is currently the skillset that is very MP efficient--that's one of its niches....

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #776 on: October 04, 2009, 10:26:47 PM »
Ehhhh how much of a niche is that really.

I mean, feel free to gather opinion, but it's been said several times in this thread that MP restoration, etc. isn't that exciting because it... doesn't come up that often. (Not that I advocate changing the L1s.) I dunno, I guess you could make that argument and math it out, but people tend to beeline BM for just about any other magic skillset after C1 >_> It feels like the only real time it's set as a secondary is, in fact, for the cheap efficient L1 spells, and not much else.

If you really wanted to emphasize MP efficiency, though, how about retooling it so that it really shows? *shrugs* Either way, just carving out a niche that isn't necessarily the best niche ever, but one where it stands out when being compared to Summon.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 10:29:39 PM by Laggy »
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #777 on: October 04, 2009, 10:42:56 PM »
I am really against making Kiku later. I think it's fine as is.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #778 on: October 04, 2009, 10:59:03 PM »
With regards to Black Magic, if you want to shift things up a bit, efficiency I agree has always been one of its high points.  That said the rank 4 spells fucking suck and I know you have worked on them, but I haven't seen much chatter about use for them here either.  Make them faster but overdrive the MP cost maybe?  Not like give Black Magic 4 different flavours of (shittier) Meteor.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #779 on: October 04, 2009, 11:08:29 PM »
Wait, what?  Black Magic is currently the skillset that is very MP efficient--that's one of its niches....

I don't think I ever seriously had a problem with running out of MP during my playthrough (which has been a while, and a lot of changes have been made, but I don't think any of them would've changed this). I don't actually think this is a significant advantage at all.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #780 on: October 05, 2009, 04:06:34 AM »
If Black Magic is bad right now (and I think there's a reasonable case to say it is), why require any tradeoff? Why not just make it faster?

Alternate idea: reimagine it as _really_ fast, give everything in the set a CT of, say, 3, and ramp up MP accordingly. Make it the super MP-inefficient but blazing fast skillset.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #781 on: October 05, 2009, 04:19:25 AM »
If Black Magic is bad right now (and I think there's a reasonable case to say it is), why require any tradeoff? Why not just make it faster?

Alternate idea: reimagine it as _really_ fast, give everything in the set a CT of, say, 3, and ramp up MP accordingly. Make it the super MP-inefficient but blazing fast skillset.

That'd also make enemy Wizards a tad more scary. Typically, they can be killed (or moved away from) before the spell goes off, but a near-instant level 2+ spell certainly makes things more interesting.

Just throwin' it out there.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #782 on: October 05, 2009, 04:23:09 AM »
It's not like enemy Wizards are terribly frightening a lot of the time as is. It's mainly when they get lucky with Faith and zodiac that I've noticed any real cause for concern. I'm all for this latest BM idea.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #783 on: October 05, 2009, 04:51:51 AM »
I don't think it is something you would want to do to the whole skillset, that kind of invalidates the early changes made to a few of the spells to make them fast like that (Poison and... Death was it?).  Part of the late high cost, low use, generally stupid parts of the skillset though?

Edit - Taking into account how well received the changes to Poison and Death both seemed to be at first anyway.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #784 on: October 05, 2009, 07:00:17 AM »
More proposal stuff:

Black Magic
L1: 6MP, 3CT, 12 mult, 2v1
L2: 12MP, 4CT, 18 mult, 2v2
L3: 24MP, 5CT, 24 mult, 2v3
L4: 36MP, 6CT, 30 mult, 2v4 (not 3v3!)
Flare: Mult up from 46 to 52 (so now Holy doesn't totally make it emo)

Unsure on L2 balance, but the rest looks good. The fastest damage spell in Summon is 7CT, so... yep. Black is exclusively AoE 2vX damage on this, but wins on efficiency and cast times.

EDIT: Oh yeah this comes with other MP cost shuffling mc and I have been discussing which basically amounts to Summon becoming more MP intensive (and Meteor as well).

EDIT 2: Elemental edits.
* The gimp elemental abilities (inflicting godly status like Darkness and Death Sentence) got bumped to 4 mult in their formula (basically 2 free PA).
* The subpar ones (Silence, Don't Move, Slow, etc.) got increased to 3 (1 free PA).
* The good ones (Dead, Don't Act, Sleep, etc.) were unchanged.

Dance edits.
* Witch Hunt improved to 30 base MP damage (from 20); will still be shocked if anyone uses it.
* Disillusion and Polka Polka both dropped to 6CT - with Slow at 12, you basically get 2 for the price of one, so it's -2 PA/MA against -1 speed, which... is generally inferior, so they're in no danger of being too good.
* Nameless is probably the most broken ability, and it got nerfed by... adding more status odds to it! Now inflicts up to 9 status: Undead·Darkness·Confusion·Oil·Frog·Poison·Slow·Sleep·Don't Move. FEAR OIL STATUS.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 07:52:40 AM by Laggy »
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #785 on: October 05, 2009, 12:42:11 PM »
EDIT 2: Elemental edits.
* The good ones (Dead, Don't Act, Sleep, etc.) were unchanged.

What!
Nuts to that.
Double Lava Ball's mult.  Maybe triple it!  Come on, you know you want to.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #786 on: October 05, 2009, 02:36:06 PM »
EDIT 2: Elemental edits.
* The good ones (Dead, Don't Act, Sleep, etc.) were unchanged.

What!
Nuts to that.
Double Lava Ball's mult.  Maybe triple it!  Come on, you know you want to.
Obviously the best solution is to make Altima vulnerable to Death. >_> <_<

Excal

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #787 on: October 05, 2009, 04:27:40 PM »
Excellent!  The time is at hand for the march of the Black Calcs!  May all crumble to dust before them!

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #788 on: October 05, 2009, 09:00:31 PM »
-Semper Fidelis Usque Ad Mortem-

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #789 on: October 05, 2009, 09:28:35 PM »
* Witch Hunt improved to 30 base MP damage (from 20); will still be shocked if anyone uses it.
Wait, Laggy, didn't we figure out that Witch Hunt doesn't use that formula at all, so a change from 20 to 30 will have no effect?

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #790 on: October 05, 2009, 09:33:09 PM »
Sigh. Did we?

Oh well.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #791 on: October 06, 2009, 12:43:35 AM »
Weirdly, Witch Hunt is one I have used. It's Power and Magic Dances (I don't even remember their names!) that suck.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #792 on: October 06, 2009, 01:15:35 AM »
Yeah, some notes on power/magic vs speed:

If you look at our Battle Skill breaks, speed is -1 and the other two are -3.  They're probably better against enemies that depend on a single stat at -3.  However, in this case being single-target is actually relelvant--an MA dropping dance will only be relevant for oh, say, 2-3 out of 6 enemies.  Slow Dance, on the other hand, is a nice bonus against all enemies.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #793 on: October 06, 2009, 01:26:19 AM »
Consider also, even assuming a 3:1 ratio...

-It's better to break Knights' speed than strength. They're already pretty slow, and reducing their PA encourages them to use Battle Skill anyway.
-It's better to break Archers' speed than strength. It's the same damage loss either way (unless they have crossbows, and few do).
-Thieves, Ninjas. See Archers. Plus Steal Heart. And Quick Attack/Throw are entirely speed.
-Samurais. They can run offence off either stat, now; better to cut their speed than spend double the time cutting both PA and MA.
-Lancers. Stops them from jumping on you.
-Time Mages, Oracles. (Maybe even some Wizards.) Status doesn't care about MA.
-Chemists, Mediators. Guns.

So yeah. MA and PA breaks have issues, and those issues are compounded when the attacks are MT. Granted, they still have situational use... notably PA breaking destroys anyone who relies on unarmed physicals or Punch Art. But in general, they have problems.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 01:28:29 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #794 on: October 06, 2009, 01:38:25 AM »
Yeah, that is pretty much exactly why I have not nerfed Power and Mind Break to -2 instead of -3, despite clamors that Power Break owns C1 and C2. Sadly I can't modify how much the dances drop stats, only how fast they go off, and I think it would be pretty annoying if they went off every 4 CT... >_>
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #795 on: October 06, 2009, 06:14:30 AM »
So the patch in the OP has all the changes to Black Magic and Drawout in it yea?

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #796 on: October 06, 2009, 07:41:07 AM »
Not as of current, I'll bug mc to upload it tonight or tomorrow (and also post when it is).

EDIT: Actually Dawg I'll just e-mail it to you. :P
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 07:45:24 AM by Laggy »
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #797 on: October 07, 2009, 12:07:09 AM »
It hypothetically should be up, actually, though as always having someone test would be good, since I don't trust this server to upload correctly.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #798 on: October 07, 2009, 06:11:08 AM »
Thanks for the email Laggy, it worked fine! I'm gonna do some more playing tonight, should have some more comments on how it's going soon :)

Mo

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #799 on: October 07, 2009, 09:33:53 PM »
I've been playing through this mod over the last few months, and I have to say you've done a great job.  Thanks for all your effort and continued updates.

Since I'm most of the way through the game now (finished storyline and Beowulf quest but not Nelveska or DD), I figure I should give some feedback.    I think the class and JP rebalancing was excellent overall and definitely removed a lot of the tedium while opening up more options along the way, so nice job there.  Some specific suggestions or issues I have though:

White Mage innate Move-HP up prevents you from using Move-MP up while a White Mage.  Not critically important but annoying in the early game.  Probably technical limitations here?  I think I'd prefer not having Move-HP up innate if it prevents this, maybe innate auto-regen instead if that's possible?

Charge as a skill set got some very nice improvements, but I'd like to see archery kept a bit more viable into the later game.  Part of it's just the lack of good bows past the midgame (maybe spread out bow upgrades but make them bigger, since I assume you can't actually add items just change them).  Also, I'd love to see equip crossbow changed to allow you to equip longbows as well, though I don't know how technically feasible that is.   It's not like the damage would be incredible even then when longbowing from another class, since you can't have both equip bow and attack up.   I just think it's a shame that archery somewhat falls by the wayside considering that FFT has the best tactics game implementation of archery that I've seen.

This might be a bit more controversial, but I think you might consider changing the move-find item/brave interaction such that you don't need a low brave item finder.   Technically speaking, make both the common and rare item drops the same (good) item, if you can't change the code involved.  It just doesn't seem in keeping with the anti-tedium goal of the mod that you need to groom a specialized item finding character and/or reset constantly if you don't get the right thing.

More on the bug side of things, I had some hats broken by Mighty Sword attacks in a recent fight on the last version of the mod (the one before the Draw Out revamp), and they weren't available for purchase in the fur shop afterward.  Maybe it only works if they're broken by battle skill but not the special break attacks?  I haven't tested getting stuff broken by battle skill, though.   Specifically, it was in the Vormav fight in Murond.  Actually a suggestion here too if it's technically possible, could you make katana broken by Draw Out also be made available for purchase at the fur shop?  It doesn't seem right that you can break rare katana with no way of getting them back other than trying to rig up some ninja catches (back to that tedium thing).


Here's a quick breakdown of my team, since you seem to want feedback what people are using.   I'm doing a no special characters run, excluding Ramza.

-Ninja with Steal or Guts (Ramza) depending on if I need things stolen.  Was mostly thief while leveling.
-Melee Samurai with Basic skill.  Was a Lancer earlier on.    Makes heavy use of Reinforce when not chopping things.
-Summoner for most of the game, but switched to Geomancer with Draw Out recently because even short charged Summons started getting too slow.  Might try wizard here with the revamp.
-Time Mage with White Magic.  Mostly casts Haste2/Reraise/Raise2, wearing Chantage.
-Mediator with Charge or Battle Skill.  Was an Archer for early game until I stopped getting bow upgrades.

Excellent job with the bonus fights too by the way, it was fun to see all the broken combos thrown at me.   You guys are all really vulnerable to Insults, though.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 09:37:27 PM by Mo »