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Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 410573 times)

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #500 on: June 16, 2009, 06:05:43 AM »
Thinking about this thematically, shouldn't Knight be harder to reach? I mean, you had to go through many many years of being a squire before you were even considered for knighthood, no? It was supposed to be a grand goal. Wouldn't maybe upping it to Squire lvl.3 or Squire lvl.4 make more sense, thematically? Though I imagine that hurts some important aspects of the game/doesn't make a big difference.
Yeah, no.  I mean, something I'd be open to considering would be, say, swapping Knight and Geo for unlock location.  Although you'd need to make a lot of adjustments to pull this off (I'd want to move Equip Sword and Equip Shield and Weapon Guard and Move+1 to Geo, Attack Up to Knight, and...Equip Armor to...uhh...Squire, I guess?)

Ehhh...on the one hand, I actually like this because it works on a persistent complaint that Breaks feel too powerful to be super-earlygame.  On the other hand this makes Agrias a lot more brainless to use (Geo auto-unlocked) which...ehh...special characters getting a mild buff is okay with me as per Elfboy's comments earlier.  On the third hand...earlygame Squire and earlygame Geo are pretty similar (in that shields don't really matter yet).  Although Geos do have a noticeable PA advantage in Chapter 1 (20% more damage).  On the fourth hand...I'm actually liking Squires with Equip Armor--I can actually see using Equip Armor on a mage with that, whereas when it was competing with Knight abilities...nah, mages want Weapon Guard or Equip Shield or Move+1.  Equip Armor falls into the same category as Equip Axe in that "yeah, you might use it, but it doesn't really matter that everyone gets it through spillover because it will not crowd out other earlygame abilities."  (And thematically, Squires not naturally knowing how to equip armor, but being able to learn how is...actually remarkably good thematically).

I...huh.  Went into this post planning to explain why it's such a bad idea, but now I'm actually wondering if it's a good idea >_>.  Some positives, some negatives.

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Thinking about this thematically, too, the Squire was often in charge of helping the knight gear up. Would it be possible, then, to extend the range of Change Equipment? Give the squire the ability to help others gear up properly?
Yeah, one of the first things I brainstormed several pages back.  Not realistically possible to implement; Equip Change is hard coded.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 06:08:25 AM by metroid composite »

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #501 on: June 16, 2009, 11:02:48 AM »
Ok, since I spent like seven hours doing this today, the following abilities have been added/tested to work:

Replenish: Restores MA*8 MP, range 1, vertical 2, 400 JP. Basic Skill.
Shield: Adds Wall status (9CT invincibility), range 1, vertical 2, can't self-target, 800 JP. Basic Skill.
Quick Attack: Physical hit that uses Speed*WP formula regardless of weapon equipped (unarmed will make it do 0 damage), range 1, vertical 1, ignores evasion (and Blade Grasp), 300 JP. Steal.

Since the lack of love for special characters had been mentioned, the following as well:

Scorpio's Blessing: Range 8, effect 1, +200 base hit rate, 25% mHP revival, casting time 5 CT, no MP cost. 700 JP. Truth (Rafa).
Exploding Frog: Range 1, vertical 0, effect 1 (can self-target), 100% Frog/Oil/Transparent/Reraise/Faith, casting time 2 CT, no MP cost. 700 JP. Un-truth (Malak).
Barrier: Self-centered effect 2, vertical 0 AoE adds Wall status (100%). Work (Worker 8). Worker 8 itself is immune to Wall.
Mbarrier: Added to Byblos' skillset, replacing Energy.

Why is it that everytime I think I'm done a dozen more things come up? Sigh.

That said, I actually don't have a lot of ability slots (barely any in fact) left to work with so... this will look like it for now. Not really sure I want to go deeper than what's already been done for new custom additions to LFT anyway; the new ones here were added to what felt like the most gimped skillsets.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #502 on: June 17, 2009, 12:33:23 AM »
Because this isn't one of those games with 120 classes where there's 10 different versions of the Warrior and each one's an upgrade.  The list of classes that become obsolete in original FFT rather than doing something past the earlygame/midgame is like...Squire, Archer, Thief, and Mime (out of 20 classes).

Of those four, Archers always felt like an oversight (it's not like any other class could do what they do, it's just that, well... they were terrible), Thief still had stealing (and with Steal's JP costs as high as they were, you needed to spend quite a bit of time in the class to round out the skillset), and Mimes, well, Mimes were terrible but they were at least completely unique too. Squire was the only one that felt bad by design, but that always seemed like a poor design choice to me.

Ok, since I spent like seven hours doing this today, the following abilities have been added/tested to work:

Replenish: Restores MA*8 MP, range 1, vertical 2, 400 JP. Basic Skill.
Shield: Adds Wall status (9CT invincibility), range 1, vertical 2, can't self-target, 800 JP. Basic Skill.
Quick Attack: Physical hit that uses Speed*WP formula regardless of weapon equipped (unarmed will make it do 0 damage), range 1, vertical 1, ignores evasion (and Blade Grasp), 300 JP. Steal.

I've moved past my instinctive worry about Replenish, realizing that Ethers and Hi-Ethers barely get use in normal FFT despite items ubiquity; MP restoration just isn't as awesome as in other games.

Does Quick Attack ignore non-Blade Grasp counters, or does it just have the Holy Sword-style always 100% accuracy?

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That said, I actually don't have a lot of ability slots (barely any in fact) left to work with so... this will look like it for now. Not really sure I want to go deeper than what's already been done for new custom additions to LFT anyway; the new ones here were added to what felt like the most gimped skillsets.

Black Magic is the only other one I'd vaguely worry about, and toned-down Summon plus 3CT basic spells helps it a lot.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #503 on: June 17, 2009, 03:32:25 AM »
Does Quick Attack ignore non-Blade Grasp counters, or does it just have the Holy Sword-style always 100% accuracy?
"Blade Grasp" and "Counter" both fall into the exact same category for triggering.  Stuff like Damage Split and MP Switch and Auto Potion trigger off of all HP damage, though.  The one question mark in my mind is whether or not it triggers Hammedo.

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Black Magic is the only other one I'd vaguely worry about, and toned-down Summon plus 3CT basic spells helps it a lot.

Black Magic has always been fine just because

1: It's the #1 (practical) skillset in chapter 1.
2: It's the skillset of Wizard, which means if you do Draw Out Wizard, or Summoner Wizard, or Calculator Wizard for example, you get it automatically, and all of these secodaries still have times when Black Magic is the move of choice.

I mean, to put things into perspective, when I did the "solo game, no yell/scream, no reaction ability, no random battles" my first time through I got stuck (very possible when levelling is illegal).  My second time through after doing all that experimentation, Black Magic was the clear #3 secondary (after Summon and Math Skill)--in, for instance, the Summoner class, I actually found Black Magic secondary better than Hi Potion secondary (spam bolt once you're out of MP).

So...that was Black Magic in Original FFT.  In LFT it actually does unique stuff outside of MP conservation.  The fastest attack summon is 7 ctr; the fastest black magic is 3 ctr.  Death is interesting--Black Magic has an argument for being the best Calculator secondary just because of Noncharge Death.

So...yeah, Black Magic is fine.  I might worry a little about the Bolt1/Bolt2/Bolt3/Bolt4 balance, but the skillset as a whole seems to be in pretty decent shape in LFT.

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #504 on: June 18, 2009, 06:48:34 PM »
LFT update up!

Has all the changes discussed so far + thorough additions of documentation + new cameos.

This is another "breaking point" update, so I'll give it another month or so before mc and I cave into new ideas and prepare another update. >_>
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #505 on: June 18, 2009, 08:37:48 PM »
Don't be silly.  We all know it just means that eventually you're going to cave and start work on a WotL version.  I mean, extra item slots, more items to play with, and far less in the way of sprite limitations for your custom battles.  How can you say no?

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #506 on: June 18, 2009, 08:42:28 PM »
I can say no because I don't own a PSP.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

jsh357

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #507 on: June 18, 2009, 11:52:20 PM »
Also the lag in WotL makes it unplayable.  (10 minute battles suddenly taking 30, no thanks, especially with a patch)

PS: Just got past Golgorand in my Calc SCC.  Arghhh that made me tear my hair out until I got Pray Faith.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 01:27:15 AM by jsh357 »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #508 on: July 06, 2009, 02:53:23 PM »
By popular demand (mostly just the population that should be more distracted by blue-eyed blondes) my chronicles return.  Doesn't hurt that the last battle in the string to report on is kinda amusing.  Anyways, less rambling and more reporting.

So, when last I left off, it was four sessions ago and we were working our way through Goug's Colliary.  We had gotten to the final battle, and had taken a peak at it before we started, so we knew this battle was going to be a Kleptomaniac's wet dream.  And FFT makes kleptos of us all.

So, let's go with the initial setup.  It's kinda important, and the changes will be fun to watch.

Cyril - Bard w/ Steal, Equip Shield, Abandon, Move +2.  Decked out for speed and Mag.
Shaker - Knight w/ Steal and Excalibur/Materia Blade
Fargus - Chemist w/ Charge, Judo Outfit and Jade Armlet
Jasmin - Samurai w/ Summon and Muramasa
Beowulf - Best Fit and Yin Yang

Generally speaking, we're all in regular form with a few exceptions.  Notable is the fact that Cyril there is sporting a 500 damage Quick Attack with minimal twinkage.  So we look at the battle.  The lancers are definatly scary, but the Apanda is just an Apanda, and it has two dancers.  From the previous fight we all smirk at each other and know how that goes.  As one of the Dancers starts twirling her nameless dance, we note that it's supposed to go off after her next turn and write the battle off as a slaughter.  While it turns out that we were wrong, the battle does it's level best to confirm that impression as Cyril and his mediocre HP gets killed before he can actually do anything thanks to the lancers.  Then the dancer skips her turn and the following nameless song ripples through the party, leaving Fargus as a frog.  But, no fear!  He'll simply cur...  wait, Frog disables Item?  And no one else has status healing, or resurrection?  And so, with Ramza on a timer, and our sole source of healing down, we quickly fall.

Take 2

Cyril - Squire with Negotiate
No other changes of note.

So, we try again, this time with a second status healer and reviver.  Jasmin continues to bring the secondary HP healing.  This time things open with a Confuse 2 dropped on us all right our of the gate, and we're lucky as it only hits Cyril and Beowulf.  And Cyril wastes his confused turns threatening Beowulf before using Heal on him, curing him of confusion.  As for the rest, things are a little more dire.  Shaker is suitably invincible, but Fargus is not, and Jasmin is a beloved target of Jump attacks.  Nameless dance also kicks in, helping to keep Cyril out of the fight after he gets unconfused.  And with Cyril out of the fight most of the time, this leaves us with only Fargus who, despite Auto-Potion, eventually falls.  And we're left unable to revive him in time.  This also marks the first time Beowulf has the bright idea of attempting to Berserk Jasmin.  We'll get back to that later.


Take 3

Cyril - Squire w/ Negotiate and Excalibur
Shaker - Thief w/ Item, Equip Sword, Materia Blade and Ice Brand.

This battle has one notable thing for it's beginning.  Thanks to a slight glitch in AI, and our party being in a different formation than usual, the Invisible Jasmin manages to keep the enemy from actually attempting to attack us before our turn.  This leads to us getting a Kiyomori up while still unmolested.  Then the battle begins in earnest, with Cyril attempting to get up the stairs while the real fight began.  Beowulf, with no sword and no Magic had nothing to do but cower in the corner.  And so we begin to struggle with the three Lancers, trying to work our way over to Reis without killing them.  This time we're actually holding our own, and get into a holding pattern despite one lucky Nameless Dance hitting Cyril and Jasmin with sleep.  (At this point in time, they were next to each other, Cyril was about to get a turn, and Beowulf, in his corner, was right next to a Kiyomori'd Cyril with a turn, able to punch him back to alertness.  He double waited.)  Another fun point of this battle was where a lethal jump was aimed at Jasmin, and Cyril got a turn, allowing him to chuck a rock at Jasmin, shoving her over a square and saving her, only for a second Jump to be aimed right away, and for Cyril to get a second turn before either Jasmin moved or the second jump resolved and killed her, leading to a second rock saving her, again.  Alas, for all our efforts, the fact that we had to spend so much time playing defensively meant that we were unable to get to Reis in time.  In particular, she breathed on the Apanda, giving him a lethal Lifebreak.  And so, despite our efforts, we lost.


Take 4

Cyril - Mediator w/ Math Skill
Fargus - Knight w/ Item and Excalibur
Jasmin - Samurai w/ White Magic

At this point, a sane group would likely forget about the stealing, and just work on winning.  Then again, a sane group wouldn't play a four man challenge where one randomly picked person would try to kill the party.  So we step up and try again.  This time we have a few things going for us.  First, everyone has healing and some form of revival.  Second, our primary healer is hasted and insanely durable.  Third, and most important, we finally realized the real implications of all our enemie's being mini-bosses was, namely, they wouldn't crystalize.  This meant we could safely kill them and then bring them back when we wanted to in order to take their stuff.

The battle started in a pretty specatcular way.  Not quite the 'no one attacks' of the previous try, but Shaker instead, on a turn with nothing better to do, breaks through the Blade Grasp on the hasted lancer, and nabs her Setimieson first try.  With no other real reason to keep her alive, we then smack her down with great justice and move on.  Fargus still spends all of his turns on items, with the other two lancers keeping us busy, and one of the dancers always keeping a steady stream of Nameless Dance up meaning that we'd always have some problem needing dealing with.  But with two item slingers and an Esuna caster this was less of an issue than before.  This time we made our way through and Shaker killed one of the two dancers, though it quickly became apparent that the other one was too evasive to be dealt with through our usual means (ie, Shaker) and he had issues with the Ice Absorption anyways.  So, her dance could only be dealt with by two people.  Cyril, who was way too busy keeping up a Reraise/Cure 2/Haste/de-Confuzzling spam, and Jasmin, who by this time had been hit with Berserk by Beowulf, and was merrily trying to catch up to one of the Lancers that was leading her on a merry chase on the other side of the map.  After a while, the trio of usefulness manage to steal the Genji equips and take out the Limit Lancer, then lure the other Lancer over in order to steal her shield, de-berserk Jasmin, and then kill her.  The team was successful in all but one of these endeavours.  Which led to the Lancer Teleport 2ing away and dropping Galaxy Stop on us.  Well, no big deal, it shouldn't hit all of us.  Except it does.  So we wait for it to wear off, except she just keeps spamming it.  And it hits us all, again.  And again.  Three times it lands on the entire party.  During this time Fargus gets killed, comes back, and takes a swing at the Lancer, but thanks to bad compatability, Defense UP, and the Salty Rage, he is unable to accomplish anything and then when she ports away, he again gets caught in the lockdown.  Everyone else just gets stoned.  And so a successful run gets killed by obscene luck with Galaxy Stop.  And it's here where we end the session thanks to massive disappointment.


Take 5

Jasmin - White Mage w/ Summon
Assorted small skillset changes (most notably, Shaker learning Maiden's Kiss) completely forgotten this time.

Another week, another try.  The one big change here is Jasmin.  Her skillset is the same, but her class is different.  Mostly due to the argument about Beowulf's Yin Yang magic, which had arguably cost us the victory the week before thanks to rendering Jasmin utterly useless and dragging her to a part of the field where she would remain useless, and keeping her from killing the Nameless Dancer.  Argument went kind of like so.

R: alright, and now to put Yin Yang on Beowulf.
T: No, let's not do that.
R: Why not?  He'll be useless without it.
T: Sure, but he's a liability with it.
D: But he has Sleep, Confusion and Berserk learned.  We want him to use those.
T: But he never does.  He's more likely to berserk Jasmin, and that kills all the things that make her effective.
D: Well, sure.  But that's just because she has Two Hands and a good weapon.  The AI thinks it'll be really good.  So if we make her attack suck, then that'll fix that problem.
R: Well, how about I just go Cleric.
D: Yeah, that'd fix the problem.
T: Right then, objection withdrawn.

And it worked, too.  One of Beo's early actions was to drop a Sleep on the Hasted Lancer, taking her out of the fight for quite a while, and shocking us with his first wholly useful action since the first run.  Then he dropped a Berserk on that same Lancer, which was less awesome, but whatever.  And so we marched on.  With one of the Lancers out of the way, things got a lot easier, especially since we now had a lot more protection against the Lancer's attacks in the form of effective Evasion, Resistance, and Absorption.  We even managed to early on steal the Limit Lancer's weapon, feeling certain it would mean her cirppling while Cyril was notably effective with spammed Slows, Hastes, and Reraises to keep control firmly in our hands, especially with the undying Fargus around to revive and heal.  Even the dances weren't so bad as Reis took down one Dancer by herself, and when the Apanda was starting to get threatening, we were able to quickly swoop in and off it.  The worst thing that happened was that Jasmin had a nasty tendency of spending time as a Toad thanks to two hits from Nameless Dance and an Early Frog 2.  During all of this, Then came the Galaxy Stop spam.

This time it was only 70% accuracy, with a tendancy to miss Fargus and hit Shaker.  Leaving us with almost no capacity to actually do anything.  But we had a good feeling, and soon enough Cyril managed to get close enough to the Starry Lancer, with whom he had good compatability.  And so he moved up and opened negotiations.  And got shut down hard before getting stopped.  Our one chance had failed, and again only Fargus could move.  We were desperate, and so, we found a new way to get Cyril where he needed to go.  Namely, he had at his command a Reraise he could spam at will, as well as Negotiate, which would allow for the looting of the Venetian Shield.  And so, it became the duty of whoever could still move to kill Cyril, that he could rise again and make his movement only to be stopped and killed again, repeating the gruesome cycle of progress.  With Fargus' tough love, Cyril reached the Starry Lancer again, and he opened negotiations with faith.  And he did it!  Then as negotiations continued, Shaker nabbed what he wanted, then we ressed the Genji Lancer and offed the dangerous one.  The Genji Lancer, despite still having her awesome Limits even after we took her weapon, proved no match for four of us, and we quickly took her stuff, and called it a day.

In the end, we left that battle with a Holy Lance, Setiemison, Venitian Shield, an Angel Ring, and the Genji Shield, Helm, and Armour.  This is the Way!

This is also the end of that session.  Well, I suppose there was a random battle, but it was a proper steamrolling.  Same with the random at Finath to start the next session.  So let's start with Germinas Peak instead.

Seems that not only were we faced with a dirty bunch of thieves, but they were allied with a vile chemist as well, who sought to break the chains of the earth and fly.  On the other hand, we're now in a training setup, with Calc Cyril, Dancing Jasmin, Lancer Shaker, and Thief Fargus.  Things open up badly for the poor thieves as Fargus kills their leader in one hit.  A Chemist brings him back, but Jasmin starts up Wiznaibus to laugh at their puny Phoenix Downs even while Cyril calculated their leader's doom.  A Nameless Dance goes off, but most of the foes only get Shell, which is useless to them here, with one exception, the Vile Chemist got Protect.  This means that Shaker's attempt at him was therefore laughably pathetic.  What was less laughably pathetic was Cyril warping to the top of the hill, nabbing a nifty new mantle, and then writing the pharmacy technician's name into a notebook.  Some rumours state that he did so in an overly dramatic fashion whilst his eyes glowed red and he ate potatoe chips, but we all know those as the Church's lies.  Meanwhile, Fargus and his knives had fun, whittling down the enemies.  Truly, it got so bad for the poor sods that their best option to accomplish anything saw them trying to attack a thief with auto-potion through front evade.  The battle ended with that poor sod getting pushed off a cliff as Shaker finally reached the battle.

Poeskas Lake also ended poorly.  Something about Math Skill lending itself very well to undead battles what with the Cure 2 being awesome thing and all.  Also useful was Shaker and his Holy Lance and Fargus of his twin Air Knives of killing things dead.  Jasmin managed to score a few kills with her Wiznaibus before simply going off to boost her brave.


And now for Elmdor.  The gates proved mildly tricky as we intended to learn Ultima here.  Unfortunatly, attempt #1 saw Ramza get Charmed, followed by half the demons and both the Assassins getting hasted.  We still almost won until we discovered that even if they're ubersquires, the mechanics of Ultima are simply beyond frogs.  Attempt #2 saw Ramza go in hatless, and it worked like a charm with him getting appropriately nuked.  Jasmin then tried out her Charge +7 Katana swing, neatly decapitating an assassin.

As for the Elmdor Battle...  we went in with a setup fairly similar to what we had for Goland 5.  Fargus was a Chemist, Shaker was a Knight with Excal, Jasmin was a Samurai with Heal.  Cyril, was basically exactly the same.  Battle started off well with us fending off the combined assault.  However, it quickly became apparent that Elmdor knew our plan, and he had a simple counter measure of his own.  Death before dishonour, or disrobing.  And so we barely saw any Draw Outs, as Elmdor did his level best to kill himself, and almost succeeded.  Indeed, for several rounds he ignored Shaker's merry slaughtering on his support as he blood sucked Cyril, the guy with the Slow Spell.  If he hadn't of stopped, odds are pretty good he would have "won".  But he eventually didn't renew Cyril's zombie vamp status even as Celia was critted and ran away and Lede was counting down to oblivion.  And here is where things get fun, as we break his speed, and buff our own.  At one point before things were totally under control, Lede turned into a crystal, and we wanted Elmdor to grab it.  He refused.  We even had to kill Celia twice to give him more chances, but he would not be baited.  So we simply had him broken down to 0 Speed (w/ Slow) and I think Shaker was around 25 Speed by the time we were done (he was definatly getting every other action by the end, and then killed him pretty quick.

So, it was pretty dang easy outside of the early threat that our quarry would kill itself.  And there is where we stop.  Zalera shall wait for next time.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #509 on: July 12, 2009, 12:37:05 AM »
I'm currently a bit miffed that you killed the Germinas Peak rare battle. It's one of the only iconic battles people would go and seek out and it's randomly gone. It's made more annoying by the fact that one of the other early sources of guns is gone (Colliery).

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #510 on: July 12, 2009, 12:53:07 AM »
I'm currently a bit miffed that you killed the Germinas Peak rare battle. It's one of the only iconic battles people would go and seek out and it's randomly gone. It's made more annoying by the fact that one of the other early sources of guns is gone (Colliery).
Laggy used Germinas Peak's rare battle slot for an optional superbattle.  Though yeah, I agree with you that I'd prefer another map be used for that purpose.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #511 on: July 12, 2009, 10:19:42 AM »
Yeah. Any other map, really (only 11 Monks and the SMB can even compare for memorability). Or you could use any other non-rare slot in Germinas Peak, unless there's some reason you can't do this with non-rare slots.

Also, harps are in bad, bad need of a nerf for reasons related to both power and flavour but I will save that rant for when it is not 2 in the morning and I am coherent.

On a more positive note, the new Adramelk fight is hilarious win.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #512 on: July 13, 2009, 07:45:16 PM »
Apologies in advance for the rant, since I love LFT and think it is the best thing since sliced bread, or failing that, Hippopressor. But anyway...


Why harps suck:


First of all, power complaints.


(All figures assume a non-Ramza Bard, no accessories, and straight attacks. I'm working off my old melee damage chart, which assumes levels progress roughly linearly until an endgame of 39.)

-Bloody Strings allows Bard to do 80 damage after meeting Draclau (on par with Ninja), at range 3, and this drains. This rises to 100 by Chapter 3.

-Lamia Harp brings Bard's damage to 150-210 in Chapter 4. This is, admittedly, less broken because it doesn't drain, but it's still one of the top physicals, similar to that of Geomancer or Samurai (and unlike Samurai or Ninja, you can use Equip Shield).

-Fairy Harp is STUPID. You can get one from the Colliery without much difficulty (failing that, you can poach a Tiamat for a rare, but this is tricky). 250-350 damage, back to Ninja level, without even trying.

What really breaks Harp damage further is anything which puts their weapon power to better use than their raw stats. In particular, this is:
-Quick Attack, because Bards are stupid fast. A Bard with a Thief Hat and Fairy Harp will do 600 damage. With Lamia Harp, 360. In a reaction/evade-ignoring fashion.
-Charge. Since it adds to Bard's low base attack, it gets crazy very quickly. I think Tal mentioned OHKOing Wiegraf 2 with this? Yeah.

Either of these allow it to pass Ninja, even. I definitely don't care for that. At least Ninja is held back by needing to close to melee range. (admittedly, QA will give this weakness to Bard as well, but for their troubles they get innate Concentrate and reaction ignoring) Bard is also functionally more durable than Ninja because of the greater range, and possible shield option.

The problem here doesn't lie with Charge or Quick Attack, they're cool. The problem here lies squarely with Harps.


Style/theme complaints:

First of all, the easy one: harps shouldn't be that strong. They just shouldn't. I'm not really going to defend this since it's completely arbitrary, but instead move on to another issue: their balance with Dancers.

Okay, first of all: Bard weapons are about 3 times stronger than Dancer weapons. Seriously. 3 times. What the hell. I'm aware Dancer has considerably more PA+MA than Bard, and I'm aware they have innate Attack Up. It doesn't matter, the comparison is dismal. It gets even worse when you realise Bard has +2 speed for some reason. And 3 range. And one of their weapons drains. And Persia shows up later than Bloody Strings. And Ryozan Silk is harder to get than the Fairy Harp (easiest Colliery battle vs. the hardest, which would you rather steal in...).

Secondly, +2 speed is a more generally applicable boost than what the carpets give.

Thirdly, if their Attack Up and Magic Attack Up innates are any indication, Bards are meant to be mages and Dancers are meant to be fighters. Yet Bard destroys Dancer as a fighter and mage both. Part of the problem here, admittedly, is that Dancer has almost no way to use its Attack Up - Jump and regular attacks are out due to low Weapon Power, Swordskills are largely out due to needing Equip Sword (why not just use a Geomancer?), Punch Art is the only real useful one.

Fourthly, harps in their current incarnation discourage the use of Sing, which is very silly. (Sing not benefitting from speed.)

Finally, Bard is basically a much better class than Dancer, the only thing Dancer really has is Dance itself, which is admittedly better than Sing (but if this is a concern, the logical solution is to improve Sing itself, easily done by shortening its CT). Ryan raised the point that this might be an intentional imbalance to compensate for females getting perfumes, but it seems inelegant to leave that at the class level like this. Heck, even leaving Move+3 as male-only would be more elegant.


In short, it seems like Bards should either emphasise magic (since that's not normally a male specialty) or Sing itself, and as it stands the class is doing neither, due to the current state of Harps. To make matters worse it's totally asymmetrical with Dancer. Offhand I'd say harps need to lose the speed boost, or about 20-35% of their damage, or both. (barring more drastic changes to the Bard and Dancer classes)

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #513 on: July 14, 2009, 03:51:11 AM »
Finally, Bard is basically a much better class than Dancer, the only thing Dancer really has is Dance itself, which is admittedly better than Sing (but if this is a concern, the logical solution is to improve Sing itself, easily done by shortening its CT).
We were aware of and okay with this.

Bard: better weapon, worse stats, horrible stat growth, worse skillset
Dancer: better skillset, better stats, ok stat growth, but a bad weapon

Having every class have about the same quality skillset and about the same quality stats wasn't necessarily the goal; there's definitely some intentional specialization.

Quote
Either of these allow it to pass Ninja, even.
Wasn't my experience with Charge (I remember it being half the damage of Ninja?) but I did not have Fairy Harp.  Although...do you have the aftergame Ninja weapons?  I seem to recall they were good. (17-21 power?)

The Quick Attack numbers bother me more, though; high physical damage being similar between the close range instant class and the long range charging class...these are entirely different playstyles, so it adds to class variety.  Really not sure how I feel about Quick Attack in general.  "I have a cool potentially abusive formula" is one thing.  "I avoid all evasion and reaction abilities" would be one thing.  Both at the same time is kinda...zuh?  Haven't played with it at all yet, though.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 03:54:56 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #514 on: July 14, 2009, 04:11:47 AM »
No. Assuming they're still in their previous locations, they are Deep Dungeon/Nelveska, compared to the much more accessible Colliery/poaches.

Again, the problem is with harps, not quick attack. If Quick Attack makes axes useful, GOOD! And I'm not sure what else it would be abusive with. Quick Attack with harps is broken because harps, specifically the Fairy Harp, are stupid (Hi I'm a 50 power weapon with +2 speed and 3 range that isn't particularly hard to get by non-storebought standards). It's bad enough that we've decided the Fairy Harp should not be used in any way that fully harnesses its potential, and in a playthrough where we're fooling around with just about everything, no holds barred, this says something. (Again, it's a combination of power and style concerns... I'm aware Excalibur is still technically better.)

If you want Bards to have a better weapon (despite being the magic specialist of the two...), then you can accomplish this either with Speed+2 alone, or with reasonably high WP alone (like 16/24/36 or something).
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 04:20:09 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #515 on: July 14, 2009, 06:27:44 AM »
Eh, I feel it's more that it just kills the challenge in battles where you don't need it, and if you do, there's a bad tendency towards getting splattered because you are a Bard.  Though, I suppose there is the Equip Armour option.  Then again, I feel none of the outrage here that is being expressed.

As for the recent fights.

We start off with Zalera.  Cyril equips the Fairy Harp, Steal, Thief Hat and Sprint Shoes.  Fargus has a gun.  Cyril, being faster than Zalera, starts off by smacking him for 600 damage.  Then he gets Nightmared to sleep.  Fargus shoots Cyril, who then QA's Zalera again.  The next Nightmare is Death Sentence, which leads to Cyril being ignored for the win.

Next up, the Elf wants an elemental gun, so we're off to some battle I've never heard of before.  That said, I figured heading to the peak was something you'd rarely do.  Apparently it's one of the places to go for elemental guns.  Who knew.  So we go looking for a fight, resetting for anything besides two of them.  One of which we took a fair bit of time to discover was no longer there.  We ended up fighting the new battle two times.  The first time we were unable to look at anything because it opened with Oblivion's Edge and we were all killed.  Second time we got it, the user of OE failed to use it for a while, instead spending a fair bit of time hammering at his support while his buddy just spammed MBarrier, and the support split between didn't have time to reach us, and was pretty good at killing us.  But, we were able to take what the human support was dishing out, and because we were set up for Invitation Spam, we discovered something.  The non-special humans are not immune to Invite.  And so it was that we were winning until Oblivion's Edge was used, again killing us all in one hit without even the decency to show damage numbers.  There is currently speculation in the works on how to win the fight right now without needing to visit the Deep Dungeon, and without knowledge of how OE works, it's currently in the catagory of winnable, but need to be extremely lucky.

Now, for Dycedarg's Elder Brother.  The first fight was handled easily enough as we managed to swamp Dyce.  Then came Adramelk, who we were kinda mocking since, despite his neat innates, it wasn't stopping the beat down we were laying on him.  Then he got a turn.  We might still have won thanks to Reraise if Fargus hadn't been in position to huck an Elixir at him.  The second attempt saw two things change.  First, status protection.  We only covered one, but it was the important one.  Secondly, it seems our friend is vulnerable to Slow.  Regardless, he got one turn, and while Night Sword was brutal, it couldn't make up for the fact that we simply mobbed him to death.

At this point we decide to invade the church, and have gained ourselves a Cid.  This leaves Cid and two Ignore Height Shock Bards to storm the front of the church, while Jasmin and Fargus work up the back.  We also realize that we have no ressurection, no steal, and want to get the Dragon Rod, because it is better than the Wizard Rod now.  This hits a snag when that summoner sticks a Salamander on Fargus.  Fortunatly, we berserk her.  Wait, she can call up Bahamut with her physical...  So we leave her with no one she can hit, or at least, with some really bad options that way.  Namely, Abandon Venitian Shield Bard, and Blade Grasp Jasmin.  It works.  Oh, the rest of them?  Not really worth talking about.

The following battle sees us prepping so that everyone either has Maintenance or doesn't have cool stuff on.  Or at least, that was the plan.  Halfway through TG Cid got handed the controller to do his thing, and he mixed up accept and cancel.  So, three members of the party hadn't had time to prep, and only one of them didn't have rares.  So, only the two Bards were prepped to rush in.  That said, Cyril with the Fairy Harp made a good impression, and Jasmin sacrificed a Brgandine to the cause, as TG got good luck with his timing and was able to swarm in, 3-1ing poor Kletian.  Despite this, we still needed to have everyone attack in order to break through his absurd defenses and kill him.

Finally, the Zombie fight.  Forgive me for my not remembering this so well, but it was steamrolled.  We had a high powered Holy land, peppered him with gunshots, a holy sword attack, draw out, and twin Knight Swords.  Only really killed one demon before we trained our guns on him, and it really was a slaughter.

So, no idea what endgame will look like, but it's not about to be our concern.  Namely, we're doing Deep Dungeon and Nelveska first, and it will weep.

PS: the Darkness animation worked fine.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #516 on: July 14, 2009, 06:55:32 AM »
No. Assuming they're still in their previous locations, they are Deep Dungeon/Nelveska, compared to the much more accessible Colliery/poaches.

...that isn't particularly hard to get by non-storebought standards...

Accessibility can be changed.  The fairy harp was never meant to be accessible (when we designed it it was only available as the rare poach on Tiamat).  If the Colliery fights are making it too easy to get, then yes: that's something that should probably change.

Quote
I'm aware Excalibur is still technically better.

Nevermind Excalibur, I'd argue Chaos Blade is still better, since it has a better formula, is available on classes with better speed and movement (which ends up roughly balancing out with the speed+2 and range) but more importantly can actually be used to buff good skillsets like Jump and Allswordskill.  (And yes, you can use Jump with harps, but the terrible PA ends up making that...mildly below average).

It doesn't bother me that Chaos Blade exists far in the aftergame, and for the same reason I'm not bothered by a 50 WP harp existing far in the aftergame (especially since gaining 20 levels from the deep dungeon barely increases Bard damage at all).  However, if you're finding Fairy Harp easily accessible well before the aftergame, yes, I agree, that's a design flaw.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #517 on: July 14, 2009, 07:05:31 AM »
I feel it's a consistent flaw with all harps, honestly. I remember playing through LFT, briefly touching Bard, and thinking "mmm, I dunno, maybe harps could stand to lose a little WP". Then the next update come along and their WP had indeed been changed... in the other direction. <_<

But I agree that Fairy Harp is the worst offender, and that yes, if you want Fairy Harp to be purely an aftergame thing, then treat it that way. As it stands, it's a bit too easy to snag if you've invested any time in Steal at all (and with Thief getting the upgrade it has, that's much more likely).

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #518 on: July 14, 2009, 02:40:52 PM »
Meh, just kind of have to chime in that in a game with Non-charge on Mimes, if someone wants to unlock that deep into physical tree and mage tree on a Male in the aftergame?  Fuck it.  Give them their broken toy.  This is just me talking here though.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #519 on: July 14, 2009, 03:28:53 PM »
Nah, the complaint is that the broken toy is too easily accessible, which is a valid concern. The train of thought I had going when I was designing the Colliery fights was "Yeah, okay, anyone who's clearing these is going to have enough toys to curbstomp the rest of the (normal) game, so who cares".

Harp WP in general still leaves me somewhat baffled. Prior to the last update (where we flipped Bloody Strings and Ramia Harp storebought locations) mc and I were arguing about this pretty extensively. I was concerned that, although their damage is still lower on paper compared to Ninjas, Bards were not really that hard to set up for damage (optimal Ninja setup now is Attack UP + Morning Star at endgame levels), had 3 range, were faster, and got parasitic healing to boot. The aspects I -did- like was how well they worked with Charge (and now Quick Attack) - skillsets that could still use more exposure. mc's counterpoint was mainly that Bards were frailer than Ninjas and that their stats were really that bad, plus the damage on paper didn't seem horribly out of hand compared to other damage twink setups.

This is all ignoring Fairy Harp, which I can agree readily to a nerf or a location change. (Making the autocast Fairy relevant holds somewhat more appeal to me; may drop it to 40 WP, or go with the idea of a 18/27/36 WP series. Dunno yet.) I suggested removing the Speed bonus at some point, but mc was pretty adamant about keeping it, feeling that it was oddly cool to have Bards surpass Ninjas in speed.

Elemental guns are still available in a Deep Dungeon fight, although I admit they're much more out of the way now. I'll probably move the Germinas Peak rare fight back and shift the stupid optional superfight somewhere else. (For reference, Oblivion's Edge is a reverse-faith based screenwide attack. And I totally did not design that fight to be anything even remotely resembling 'fair' or 'balanced', disclaimer. Same for Nelveska, though you'll see that when you get there!)

Adramelk is... not... supposed to be vulnerable to Slow. :( Not that it really would have mattered with your party, anyway, but. I'll look into that. Glad you liked the fight design; it took a damn long time to come up with something I was satisfied with and after several incarnations of the fight brainstormed with mc.

Also glad you guys are taking the time and effort to scour out the aftergame - I'd greatly appreciate comments in that area, since few people have bothered with it (or at least bothered with it and given me detailed commentary) so I know what I should suggest. From all I've been told the DD could probably use a difficulty buff on some of the superfights, but they should still be quirkish enough to be interesting.

(PS: If it isn't obvious, this is Laggy posting under Melissa's account. >_>)
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #520 on: July 14, 2009, 10:25:45 PM »
Adramelk is... not... supposed to be vulnerable to Slow. :( Not that it really would have mattered with your party, anyway, but. I'll look into that. Glad you liked the fight design; it took a damn long time to come up with something I was satisfied with and after several incarnations of the fight brainstormed with mc.

Cool, I really liked the fight but was not impressed with the vulnerability (neutered the battle too easily) so I'd be glad to see him fixed. And for the record, while we very well might have defeated him on our second try without slow working, we might also have lost; he's definitely tough, and we had taken a bit of a thumping from Dycedarg that run, lost some status protection, etc. It's pretty challenging even when relatively overpowered.

Can't comment much on Zalera; he seemed pretty lousy (Nightmare really needs to go away, or at least get a better status effect than death sentence) but the Fairy Harp didn't do him any favours either.

The Oblivion Knight fight we'll totally deal with if we go in prepared; we were set for stealing elemental guns, though, and thus not really prepared for it. MP Switch tomfoolery was the tactic DHE and I were talking about, figured it would do the trick regardless of how the move works. Spamming CT5 Innocent, our other plan, would also work, it sounds like.

On harps I pretty much agree with DHE; it's a design choice I'm not particularly enamoured of either (harps with damage seem just plain weird to me, and the ninja niche is already comfortably occupied by ninja), but the real concern is brokenness. Getting the Fairy Harp out of Colliery would help a lot; the bard there doesn't even use it well, so it's not like a nerf to the battle, really. Rare Tiamat drop or bottom of the deep dungeon definitely seems much more appropriate. Losing the speed boost and/or dropping the power a bit could also be in order (I think 18/27/36 would be totally fine, personally), but the thing should regardless not be available in early endgame.

The more I've seen of Dancer, meanwhile, the less I've been impressed, though I should note that I haven't seen a lot of dance itself. Alright stats but terrible equipment options, not well-situated to make use of that Attack Up, not that great at any secondary, really no reason to stay other than Move+3. Skillset can be used equally well by any class, and takes, like, 1000jp to master, so it's not really winning Dancer any points with me.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #521 on: July 15, 2009, 12:34:12 AM »
-Charge. Since it adds to Bard's low base attack, it gets crazy very quickly. I think Tal mentioned OHKOing Wiegraf 2 with this? Yeah.

For the record, that was a mimed Charge.  So it was running on much higher PA.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #522 on: July 15, 2009, 06:24:03 AM »
On the other hand, Bards aren't so hot at magic due to the horrible lack of MP thanks to being unable to equip robes, and there not being an equip robe option.  This means that only really Black and White magic benefit, while Summon and Meteor need Half MP to realistically benefit from that MA+.  The only thing that really makes Bards noticable is that they do have harps, which are hillariously good, and completely non-portable.  ie. They're a carrier class now, and I'm not only fine with that, but I like it.  Unlike before where they were very much get in, get a couple of songs, then learn Math Skill you freak, now there's a viable reason to use them that will vanish if harps get nerfed too much.

As for dancers, I wonder how much of the feeling is simply due to their unique weapon simply being so, well, unaccessable.  The Ryozan Silk looked interesting, but I know that unlike most other weapon classes which we have been fiddling with, the silks have just been left alone because they either haven't been available, or just haven't been affordable.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #523 on: July 15, 2009, 06:30:56 AM »
From what I've noticed, the speed thing is what's really causing the biggest conflict, availability aside. It's un-intuitive to the class (making Sing less viable) and gives between 40-100 extra damage on a QA.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #524 on: July 15, 2009, 06:52:59 AM »
From what I've noticed, the speed thing is what's really causing the biggest conflict, availability aside. It's un-intuitive to the class (making Sing less viable) and gives between 40-100 extra damage on a QA.

Setting aside Quick Attack (which again I haven't seen in action)...

Bard speed is interesting, because they're faster than Ninjas at level 1, and slower than ninjas at level 99 (and being male, can't equip perfumes).  It's "fast" in an entirely different way than other classes do "fast".  It's also interesting because Ninjas have move4/jump4, but Bards have move3/jump3, (and the slower-than-both-but-still-sorta-fast Squires have move 5).

Just design-wise, Speed+2 Bards opened up a bunch of design space I didn't even realize was there.

If there's one thing to nerf on them, damage would be the sensible choice.  (And for the record, if damage is being nerfed I'd vote 15/25 for the storebought ones, just to stick with round numbers.  I still feel 50 hard-to-get-aftergame should be okay for aftergame if we're leaving the 40 WP Chaos Blade around, and the 30 WP Spear which becomes 45 WP with Jump; Spear/Chaos Blade are still better in-practice because you can use them on classes that don't have terrible stats and because their WP can be used to buff actually good skillsets).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 06:55:06 AM by metroid composite »