Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 410631 times)

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #350 on: April 28, 2009, 07:40:03 PM »
Yeah, about that :) No-charge Wiznaibus? Still broken, even by standards where insta-Bahamut is sane.

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #351 on: April 28, 2009, 07:53:13 PM »
Make Short Charge work with Sing/Dance too!  Please?

...why are you looking at me like that?
Short Charge with Sing/Dance...would more than double the effectiveness (where no other support ability was even doing much).  I mean, it could be done, but we'd probably have to significantly nerf Sing/Dance to almost assume that you have Short Charge.  (And non-charge would just not work.  Even if it didn't loop infinitely and just did one sing/dance right when you acted...Last Song = win the fight).

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #352 on: April 30, 2009, 06:56:20 PM »
I've been thinking about Summoner a bunch... I get the good skill-set vs. good job thing, so maybe I'm off-base wanting every job to have some reason to be in it beyond JP considerations (since if I'm arguing that Squire's subpar skillset is a reason to stay out even if it's really good, surely I can argue that the above-average and costly nature of Summon is reason to stay in even if the class itself is bad). But in any case, I feel like the class is a bit below par now.

(by the way, feel free to tell me to shut the fuck up if you want; I spend a lot of time in front of a computer and I can be pretty verbose and opinionated, so don't hesitate to put me in my place if it's getting annoying)

Here's the logic anyhow, just from the paired perspectives of balance and coolness. Summoner obviously compares easiest to other mages, and by and large does so poorly even in normal FFT (good MP, but slow and with so-so MA). This is obviously balanced out by the ludicrous awesomeness of Summon, and Summoner on the whole was a good class in the standard game, with an amazing skillset.

In LFT, each of the mages have been improved, sometimes dramatically: Wizard gets MA dropped a bit (but still game-best), but in exchange gets 3CT basic spells, better Poison (still not great, but much much better, especially if the HP increase goes through), Death as both cool and useful (2HKO from range 8), JP reduction for later spells. Priest has a vastly improved skillset, Raise's profile increased by Pheonix Down's nerf, Move HP up and flails. Oracle's skillset is similarly improved (Life Drain is vaguely nerfed, but still fantastic), and the move MP up thing more than makes up for slight MP mult drop. Time Mage is probably the least improved, but even so Haste 2 and Slow 2 are awesome now, reduced JP makes the whole skillset much more approachable, and the Demis are a bit more credible as an offensively. Also, Float is badass.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that I feel that all the other mage classes have been improved, fairly proportionately to how good they were previously (Priest and Oracle get the most, Wizard the least). Summoner, on the other hand, has a skillset that is probably about as good as it was (if not slightly worse; the speed hit on Shiva et. all hurts, although reduced JP on Salamander and the existence of Sylph help the early skillset, and Bahamut is now godly for later). Fly is a nice addition, but not ultimately that meaningful (pretty uninspiring ability regardless, and expensive enough that you're not going to get it through spillover 'till later in the game when you have better options, generally overshadowed by early easy ignore height and jump +3). They feel a bit short-changed. Not much, mind, they're still obviously competent, but.

Does this matter? Probably not; Bahamut is likely reason enough to suffer in Summoner for as long as it takes regardless, and the skillset is, as it always was, good and pleasantly multi-purpose. I just wonder if they shouldn't get some bone tossed to them anyhow, just to make them a bit more appealing and a bit less of a painful slog; doesn't necessarily need to be significant so much as a consolation prize. I don't know what that should be, mind you... Random ideas: Godly MP and/or Innate Half-MP, possibly coupled with lower MA if necessary? Short Charge plus lower MA might similarly work, but feels a bit counter-themely. Books and sticks are already kind of Oracle's thing, and I can't think of an equipment type that really suits them otherwise. MDU? Innate half Fire/Ice/Lightning/Wind/Earth/Water/Dark? (I think that's my favourite; makes them a little bit more defensive, which is unusual for mages, with the not undesirable secondary effect of making early-game enemy summoners a bit scarier. Also feels themely.)

Anyhow, those're thoughts for the day. Peace and love ^_^

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #353 on: April 30, 2009, 07:22:31 PM »
Keep in mind that Summon Magic itself is still arguably in running for best skillset in the game (outside of Math Skill, maybe?). Just the fact that the class has it as a primary is a pretty big incentive, and Summoner is not a huge downgrade compared to the other casters or anything like that.

The thing is that, unlike Samurai, staying in Summoner is not really that painful (and you do a lot if you're going to be learning Summon Magic seriously); the class isn't really clear-cut inferior to any of them. Wizard still gets saddled with Black Magic, Priests sometimes don't want the extra speed (on top of worse MA and no rods); Time Mages don't get rods, for all that they enjoy second-best land after Wizard; Oracles have noticeably less MP (intentional with innate Move MP Up - they have less of a battery but can recharge it) and still slightly inferior MA.

Although Summoner, once Summon Magic is mastered, may not be the optimal class, it is hardly a handicapped class. I guess you could argue that it deserves a niche to make it more compelling as some "in this particular situation" carrier but I find it hard to think of one that makes a class with Summon Magic just flat out better than it deserves to be. Innate Half of MP would make Summoner really, really good (there's no way in hell I'd take Oracle over it now). An increased MP pool may be a thought, although I'm not sure how much they deserve it (it's a strong check on Summon's power, after all). Vehemently against Short Charge - not thematic and incredibly overpowering (you can combine it with MAU and no MA nerf unless absurdly extreme would stop that from being gamebest caster combo). Their equips are fine. MDU bothers me in that there's no mirror (no class with only DU). Half elements is a thought, although I'm disinclined because no jobs use innate elemental affinities and it feels a bit black sheepish there.

As an aside, one of the things about Squire's skillset that we're changing... Throw Stone and Dash (and Counter Tackle!) are going to get altered to have 100% knockback. I'm sure you can see the wide-reaching awesome implications of this. FEAR SQUIRE POWAH!
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #354 on: April 30, 2009, 07:44:38 PM »
Yeah, they definitely don't need radical improvement (Short Charge in particular, I agree, would be stupid; came out as part of the brainstorming process). I guess it really boils down to me being a proponent of niche uses, and not really seeing one for them even though Summon is obviously fine; as a skillset, the slowdown of Shiva et. al. is I think well balanced by the sheer stopping power of early Salamander, and later summon has obvious (giant doom dragon) uses. But it would be nice if there was some reason to stay in the class after you'd gotten the skills you want out of it.

On consideration, I also think any improvement of MP would be best balanced by a slight decrease in MA (Priest level or so? Summoner damage would still be fine, after all), which might change the class too much. Half MP is probably overkill, yeah.

(DU on Lancer would mirror MDU on Summoner nicely, but we all know what I think on that topic  ;D)

I suggest the elemental thing since it implies an affinity to the critters they summon (deliberately left Holy out since there's no holy summon); on the black sheep thing, I see what you mean, but I think giving them some token similarities to how monsters work (and elemental resistance is totally a monster thing) is not out of character either.

100% Knockback is awesome awesome awesome. Makes goblins cool again too. Also, on the topic of Summoners, improves Fly :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 01:12:29 AM by Just Another Day »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #355 on: May 01, 2009, 09:44:25 AM »
Mmyeah, guess I'll throw my 2 cents in here instead of bonking Laggy with it.  I honestly think the latest stuff being tossed around is really going a bit far.  Niches are great, and I love a lot of the core improvements, but... there are really only so many niches in the game for classes to fill.  Especially trying to look at them as pure carriers. 

Summoner in particular stands out as a class where simply gaining JP in it is more than enough reason to stay in, now that all the individual summons have been made more useful.  If you've managed to learn everything you want in Summon AND enough of a secondary skillset that you're looking to settle into a pure carrier class... first of all you're either overleveled, very far along in the game, or both, and second of all the ability to use Summon on good mage stats/equips along with any secondary you want is still a decent reason to go there.

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #356 on: May 01, 2009, 05:39:07 PM »
Mmyeah, guess I'll throw my 2 cents in here instead of bonking Laggy with it.  I honestly think the latest stuff being tossed around is really going a bit far.  Niches are great, and I love a lot of the core improvements, but... there are really only so many niches in the game for classes to fill.  Especially trying to look at them as pure carriers. 

I think there's definitely a case to be made that Summoner is a fine carrier simply because you will not, realistically, master its skillset in the normal course of play(although diminishing returns definitely kick in). And though I personally disagree, you could very well be right that it's not particularly plausible to make every class at least somewhat attractive as a carrier, and whether this is even desirable or not is certainly subjective. Me, I enjoy the discussion as much as anything; I certainly don't want to be seen as putting any pressure on Laggy and m.c. They've done an absolutely stand-up job with this. Everything from this point is tweaking.

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Summoner in particular stands out as a class where simply gaining JP in it is more than enough reason to stay in, now that all the individual summons have been made more useful.
 

Bahamut has been basically improved, and Carbunkle, Salamander, and Cyclops made more accessible, but the others (aside from Sylph, which is better but mostly just different) are unchanged or strictly worse. And most comparable attack magic, especially Black, has been notably improved. It says something about how ludicrous Summon was in the normal game that it's still good, even great, but it is one of the (few and thus notable) skillsets that at best breaks even in LFT.

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If you've managed to learn everything you want in Summon AND enough of a secondary skillset that you're looking to settle into a pure carrier class... first of all you're either overleveled, very far along in the game, or both, and second of all the ability to use Summon on good mage stats/equips along with any secondary you want is still a decent reason to go there.

That last point I strongly disagree with. Of the five core mage classes (Wizard, Priest, Time Mage, Oracle, Summoner), Summoners are pretty clearly the worst users of Summon except for Priests, who aren't much worse at it and have numerous strengths (speed + PA + flails + Move HP Up). Summoners are likewise lousy with non-Magic secondaries, with their scrubby speed and mage PA. Once you have a decently-rounded summon skill-set (which can be pretty cheap, say Sylph + Moogle + Salamander; that'll carry you through the normal game just fine) there's very little incentive to go back.

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #357 on: May 04, 2009, 11:20:37 PM »
Hm?  Summoners are a fine class as far as stats/equips go.

The FFT challenge board community had a lot of people who advocated using summoner-class Delita to get through Chapter 1.  Why?  Because Summoners are slow and you want your mage to be slower than the enemy.  (Now, personally I think they're wrong here--Delita is a 50-faith male which means he basically deals half damage compared to a normal mage; I personally advocate physical setup Delita here, but yes they're right that if you do go mage, Summoner is the class).  Even outside of guests, there's definitely battles where I've used the summoner class because I want to be slow.

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Of the five core mage classes (Wizard, Priest, Time Mage, Oracle, Summoner), Summoners are pretty clearly the worst users of Summon except for Priests, who aren't much worse at it and have numerous strengths (speed + PA + flails + Move HP Up).
Definitely not--they have Rods and almost the same MA as Time Mages, which early on makes them about 25% more damaging (and you don't care about speed at that time, because you burn MP before they get their third turn).

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Niches are great, and I love a lot of the core improvements, but... there are really only so many niches in the game for classes to fill.
There's more niches that could be opened up, but it would require slightly more radical changes.  For instance, right now any class with revival also has very good status curing, and also has good healing.  Punch Art/Item/White Magic have way too much overlap.  But...they're also iconic FF so I'm not going to start waving around a "shuffle the skillsets" flag.

I mean, I can think of niches we could staple to Summoner.  For instance, as far as MP setups go, there's maybe an interesting niche for...instead of 125 MP mult, have 50 MP Mult and innate Half of MP.  Basically doesn't change the default Wizard Robe Flash Hat setup much, but puts a much bigger emphasis on MP from equipment like Golden Hairpin.

Dunno if the small variety in equipment twinking this would offer is really worth the player confusion of "why is my MP so low?11?", though.  EDIT: although I guess there's also the fact that this prevents "Summoner with Half of MP" as a setup forcing Summoners to look out-of-class for a support ability--not sure if that's good or bad.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 11:34:05 PM by metroid composite »

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #358 on: May 05, 2009, 12:12:16 AM »
Hm?  Summoners are a fine class as far as stats/equips go.

The FFT challenge board community had a lot of people who advocated using summoner-class Delita to get through Chapter 1.  Why?  Because Summoners are slow and you want your mage to be slower than the enemy.  (Now, personally I think they're wrong here--Delita is a 50-faith male which means he basically deals half damage compared to a normal mage; I personally advocate physical setup Delita here, but yes they're right that if you do go mage, Summoner is the class).  Even outside of guests, there's definitely battles where I've used the summoner class because I want to be slow.

Heh. I forget sometimes how much better you are at this game than I :). Speed optimization has always been a bit of a blind spot for me (it's not that I can't figure it out if I stop to think about it, but it's something I always forget to consider, and it can take me a while). So point taken that Summoner's speed isn't a flat-out minus at all. I think it's worth noting that Summon has one advantage over other magic skillsets when dealing with slower enemies, though, since friendly fire at least isn't an issue.

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Of the five core mage classes (Wizard, Priest, Time Mage, Oracle, Summoner), Summoners are pretty clearly the worst users of Summon except for Priests, who aren't much worse at it and have numerous strengths (speed + PA + flails + Move HP Up).
Definitely not--they have Rods and almost the same MA as Time Mages, which early on makes them about 25% more damaging (and you don't care about speed at that time, because you burn MP before they get their third turn).

Silk Robe closes that gap up quite a bit, though, doesn't it? And Flame Whip (if I recall the proposed changes) will help compete with Wizard Rod, too, what with eerily awesome Salamander... And even conceding the above point on speed, Priests will at least have a physical and turns to use it in once their MP is gone.

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Niches are great, and I love a lot of the core improvements, but... there are really only so many niches in the game for classes to fill.
There's more niches that could be opened up, but it would require slightly more radical changes.  For instance, right now any class with revival also has very good status curing, and also has good healing.  Punch Art/Item/White Magic have way too much overlap.  But...they're also iconic FF.

Guts lacks healing, which is pretty noticeable if (like us) it's your primary source of revival. I'm pretty sure we've had one or two battles with revival but no healing, which was novel.

As far as Punch Art/Item/White Magic redundancy, the only thought I have that doesn't hurt my personal sense of how FF works too badly might be repurposing Stigma Magic somehow... [Top of the head brainstorm]: giving Monk more close range crowd control a la spin fist seems themely, so possibly some sort of nameless-dance-esque random status attack to neighbouring panels?[/brainstorm]

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I mean, I can think of niches we could staple to Summoner.  For instance, as far as MP setups go, there's maybe an interesting niche for...instead of 125 MP mult, have 50 MP Mult and innate Half of MP.  Basically doesn't change the default Wizard Robe Flash Hat setup much, but puts a much bigger emphasis on MP from equipment like Golden Hairpin.

Dunno if the small variety in equipment twinking this would offer is really worth the player confusion of "why is my MP so low?11?", though.

I think that'd be pretty cool. Giving added credibility to non-MA equipment is neat, and MP twinkery could become pretty rewarding (is there a late game or aftergame hat/clothes/robe that could be given a random awesome MP boost? Golden Hairpin might be enough regardless).

I dunno how much you should have to think about the undereducated (is that a terrible thing to say?); Summoner with the "best" magician hat and robe would actually be relatively functionally unchanged, I'd imagine, so I'm not sure it'd really hurt the super-casual player.

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #359 on: May 05, 2009, 10:06:57 PM »
Silk Robe closes that gap up quite a bit, though, doesn't it?
If you learn Silf, then sure...for about 5 battles, and then you get a Wizard Robe.  (Wizard Robe + Thunder Rod > Silk Robe + nothing).

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And Flame Whip (if I recall the proposed changes) will help compete with Wizard Rod, too, what with eerily awesome Salamander...
Well...maybe.  On the other hand, of the people who's playthroughs I've followed/read, yours is the first to actually bother learning Salamander instead of saving up for a wide-area spell like Leviathan--I'm not sure if this means that it's reasonably balanced, or if everyone else is just underestimating the value of Salamander.

 Priests also have a lot less MA, and by the time Flame Whip comes out they'll probably be stuck at speed 7 (just barely faster than enemies).

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Priests will at least have a physical and turns to use it in once their MP is gone.
Well...sure.  Dunno, just my personal experience from a solo normal-FFT game I did--testing showed that it was a lot less effective to equip a Stick instead of a Rod with Summon, even though I did run out of MP every battle (solo game and stuff).

Not that mages with physicals aren't appealing to a lot of people, but I don't think it's actually that big of a difference when it comes to balance

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As far as Punch Art/Item/White Magic redundancy, the only thought I have that doesn't hurt my personal sense of how FF works too badly might be repurposing Stigma Magic somehow... [Top of the head brainstorm]: giving Monk more close range crowd control a la spin fist seems themely, so possibly some sort of nameless-dance-esque random status attack to neighbouring panels?[/brainstorm]
Yeah, Stigma Magic would be the one to hit from a gameplay perspective too.  That would make for a reasonable triangle:

White Magic can't cure MP
Item has no damage moves
Punch Art can't cure status.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 10:16:23 PM by metroid composite »

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #360 on: May 05, 2009, 11:13:48 PM »
If you learn Silf, then sure...for about 5 battles, and then you get a Wizard Robe.  (Wizard Robe + Thunder Rod > Silk Robe + nothing).

Wizard Staves show up at basically he same time as Wizard Robes (well, Ovelia and then a check point later, if I'm not mistaken), which helps. But it is a losing battle, yeah.

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Well...maybe.  On the other hand, of the people who's playthroughs I've followed/read, yours is the first to actually bother learning Salamander instead of saving up for a wide-area spell like Leviathan--I'm not sure if this means that it's reasonably balanced, or if everyone else is just underestimating the value of Salamander.

Both, I suspect. If the elf hadn't pointed out how good Salamander would be in Chapter 2, I probably wouldn't've noticed it either. I feel like it has a clear purpose, now, a cheap but high-powered spell in a low-speed class (which all else aside does cost you an action or two's worth of JP per battle). And I really appreciate that it's given me a versatile skillset (fast good healing, mid fastish damage, big slowish damage) with really minimal time in a class I find boring.

Balance-wise, I might worry that it overshadows Cyclops a bit (not much worse if strengthened, less MP much less JP).

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Well...sure.  Dunno, just my personal experience from a solo normal-FFT game I did--testing showed that it was a lot less effective to equip a Stick instead of a Rod with Summon, even though I did run out of MP every battle (solo game and stuff).

Ether and Chakra being better favours rods too, of course.

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Not that mages with physicals aren't appealing to a lot of people, but I don't think it's actually that big of a difference when it comes to balance.

I don't really either, Flame Whip coolness notwithstanding. I'm more arguing that holistically Priests have many minor advantages that help alleviate their comparatively low MA. Although as part of the greater argument (that Summoner has little reason to exist outside of learning Summon), I s'pose it's somewhat moot, since Time Mage is the real clincher there in my mind.

(proposition: Time Mage with Summon >>> Summoner with Time Magic, with (debatably) comparable use for JP. Summoner's only argument for is lower speed, which is a mixed blessing and only sometimes applicable. Not that I think Time Mage is unduly overpowered, just really really good in ways that Summoner isn't. And pleasingly buoyant, which makes them feel extra badass :) )

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Yeah, Stigma Magic would be the one to hit from a gameplay perspective too.  That would make for a reasonable triangle:

White Magic can't cure MP
Item has no damage moves
Punch Art can't cure status.


Guts fits pretty comfortably into that framework as well.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #361 on: May 06, 2009, 12:06:44 AM »
Wizard Staves show up at basically he same time as Wizard Robes (well, Ovelia and then a check point later, if I'm not mistaken), which helps.
Actually Wizard Staves are a checkpoint after that (save Agrias).  More to the point, Silk Robes are less HP/MP than Wizard Robes.

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Balance-wise, I might worry that it overshadows Cyclops a bit (not much worse if strengthened, less MP much less JP).
Cyclops is the #1 damage in the skillset (well...ignoring Zodiac/Lich).  If you had the skillset mastered, you'd totally use Cyclops for most assassination missions.  The "not much worse if strenghtened" is a bit misleading too.  Yeah, if you're already wearing a Black Robe then Cyclops barely wins for damage, but you can always swap that Black Robe for a Wizard Robe at which point Cyclops wins damage by about 20%.

Actually, Cyclops was costed relative to Flare/Holy much moreso than relative to other Summons (I believe it's currently cheaper than Holy, more expensive than Flare as far as JP goes.  Similar MP).

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(proposition: Time Mage with Summon >>> Summoner with Time Magic, with (debatably) comparable use for JP. Summoner's only argument for is lower speed, which is a mixed blessing and only sometimes applicable.
Uhh...actually you're missing their most obvious advantage: Rods.  Time Mages are fixed to using staves, which tends to make their damage worse.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 12:09:38 AM by metroid composite »

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #362 on: May 06, 2009, 12:28:10 AM »
Uhh...actually you're missing their most obvious advantage: Rods.  Time Mages are fixed to using staves, which tends to make their damage worse.

Guh. I'm an idiot. I was thinking Time Mages got both Rods and Staves for some reason. Alright, I concede the point. Summoner has a niche between second best functional damage in their skillset (Oracles are a bit behind too, aren't they? And the lower MP will hurt Summons disproportionately) and Summon still trumping Black Magic (less brutally than in Standard FFT, but). I maintain that they're a bit on the bland side, but that of course is subjective. And Summon has always been stylish, so.

(I still think that ~50MP/HalfMP thing is an interesting idea)

Goes to show how redikulous Summoners were in Standard FFT, I guess. Although Wizards MA being less dominant helps them too.

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #363 on: May 20, 2009, 10:26:03 PM »
LFT = happy

No really cogent feedback this week, I don't think. We don't have updated Samurai or Lancers yet. Salamander continues awesome, Half MP is much better now that it's affordable and Gain JP Up isn't bogarting that slot. Calculators are cool, but feel pretty balanced as a class (!!)

Oh, yeah, I know the Giant Axe is geared more for Squires than for Geomancers, but it feels overshadowed by Aegis Shield. As a geomancer dressing for MA (at least as likely as Squire in Chapter 3), there's really no reason to choose it over Aegis Shield + Sleep Sword at that checkpoint; same MA, comparable status effect on attack, not as much but reliable damage ~= slightly more but unreliable damage. But Giant Axe doesn't have anything to compare to 50% MEvade. Would it be too much to give it MA+2?

We were also thinking that the Draclau Mantle is a bit of a waste of an accessory at the moment, with basically no reason to exist. A few weeks ago we came up with some brilliant idea as to what you could do with it, but none of us could remember what that was. It may have involved Blood Suck, but I can't swear to that. Always: Undead, maybe? Don't recall.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #364 on: May 21, 2009, 01:05:41 AM »
Don't think it was a mere Cursed Ring mimicry. It was something cooler. It was something SO COOL you guys would be blinded by the sheer coolness if we could remember it. Maybe.

Speaking of axes, one other thing that came up in our discussion last week was... why do they have Weapon Evade? It's a historical fact of axes that they were terrible weapons at parrying compared to daggers or swords or staves. It feels like an inelegant bone to toss axes as part of the admission they sucked in FFT. It feels like you could focus on more reasonable bonuses for them such as raw power, PA boosts, or even MA boosts. Let those who want evade look to a shield, or something like a Main Gauche in the case of the Squire. (A parrying-oriented sword besides Nagrarock I could also get behind.)

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #365 on: May 21, 2009, 02:56:51 AM »
And now that the gameplay guys have spoken, I guess it's time for two sessions in a row of LFT Multiplayer Recap!  Don't worry, one of them was really short.

So, when the last report ended, we were about to head for Golgarand Execution Site.  We picked up an Erek for this session, which led to us having a spare Agrias to tool around with.  Turns out this was for the best.

Anyways, first battle starts, Shaker and Jasmin are hanging with Cyril, while Agrias and Archer Fargus are hanging out at the far end to take advantage of their ability to ignore height, be it through movement or skillset.  Two bits of bad luck then strike us, Gaff is best compatability with Jasmin, and both of the rampart mages have good faith scores.  They lock a couple of annoying statuses on Fargus.  But, Fargus can sneak in between the two archers on the ground and take a shot, which he does.  Shaker and Jasmin combine to make short work of Gaff, while Oracle Cyril attempts to Paralyze the dangerous Archer.  So, three status effects hit that grouping of Fargus and the two archers.  Fargus and the non-dangerous archer eat all three, while the dangerous one doesn't get hit.  At this point, Jasmin is starting to go up and down like a yo-yo, with frantic scrambling to keep her alive, while Fargus comes out of his status induced trance and complete with Shaker and Agrias, start taking down the squishier enemies.  And then it happens.  One of the remaining Mages locks a Bolt 2 on Cyril, only source of revival.  Due to a Head Break early on this is enough for a OHKO.  Cyril gets a turn, but not enough time to do anything about the spell.  So, he runs next to one of the Knights, stick beats him, and then hopes to evade.  Stick beats fail, Bolt 2 hits Cyril, whiffs on Knight.  Mage is then promptly put out of his misery, but we have a problem.  Jasmin and Cyril are down, Fargus and Agrias have bad compatability with the two knights remaining, and they are both at full health.  So, what do we do now?  Two words: Death Sentence.  Fargus, with his Punch Art secondary, uses Secret Fist to remove one of the Knights from the game.  Agrias then rushes forward with Split Punch.  Secret Fist hits, but Agrias went for the same Knight Cyril failed to harm, and he manages to avoid the status.  Secret Fist won't work in time anymore, so now we need to rush him.  A couple of Split Punches from Agrias help, and Fargus pings with his Charged bow, but the real threat is Shaker, who runs up as fast as he can, swinging once, and throwing a ball once.  This leads to one whiff in his two attacks, leaving the Knight with a sliver of HP left, as well as the ball failing to be useful, and delaying Shaker just enough that Jasmin Crystalized just one clock tick before Shaker landed the killing blow.  After a tense and exciting finale, we had nothing to show for it but a reset.

Golgarand - Take 2.  Setup mostly the same except that this time Jasmin went Summoner with White Magic instead of Black Mage with Summon.  The tone of this battle was set when Fargus hopped up to the good charging mage and repeating fisting it to death and Shaker and Cyril played the roles of good little meat shields in order to prevent Gaff from killing Jasmin (or escaping) from the Salamander that was being dropped on him and both Knights.  With those four units out of the way, the rest of the battle was a mop up.

Gate Battle - This battle, there were some issues on the outside of the gate, as though the summoner dropped fast, they still had to play things defensively for a little while.    That said, within about four rounds, battle is done.  Me, I mostly paid attention t Cyril's battle against Gaffgarion, which can be summarized as Gaffgarion had six turns, a 2HKO, and an opponent with no healing.  And he got to go first.  So yeah, Paralyze for the win there, with a 100% chance of infliction after the first hit.

End of previous session, at this point we drop Agrias as Erek wasn't around, and move on to the marathon session.

Queklain still has Nightmare.  I'm told Nightmare still sucks so that future Zodiacs can remain in the realm of Vaguely Sane.  Just means Quek himself gets to suck.  Anyways, between Cyril and Shaker, we have two people with Heal in this party.  Queklain does a grand total of two things not Nightmare.  One is to kill Jasmin (who got put to sleep on her second turn, and promptly ignored because, dude, we don't want to face Counter-Salamander), and the other is to hit the entire party with Bio 3.  Bio 3 2HKOed at least Cyril, and possibly Fargus too, and Jasmin was down for the count by this point and unlikely to add to the battle at all.  But it was too little, too late as Two Sword Accumuknight Shaker, and Charging Gun Chemist Fargus win the day.

Before the Olan battle, Cyril heads to Mediator, while Shaker goes Thief.  This is in order to pair up Invite with Steal Weapon so that Fargus can be more awesome.  Olan then opens with Galaxy Stop and running towards the enemy thieves.  Better plans have been formed.  But he survives, gets most of the enemies, and Jasmin tosses a Cure 2 his way for full healing.  Meanwhile, Cyril invites a Mithril Chemist, as well as the Main Gauche thief.  Only other highlight of the battle was one of the thieves hopping up on the roof, stabbing Olan once before getting Counter Tackled off the roof.

Did you know, Charge +10 against neutral Zodiac with a Mythril Gun does 240 damage.
Another fun fact.  Zalmo 1's new HP Total is equal to 240 HP.
Just wish they were related somehow.

Alright, on to Orbonne 1.  Cyril's done with Mediator by now, and is in Time Mage to finish getting JP for Calculator.  Also, Shaker is either having fun with his shiny daggers, or learning how to parry with them.  Battle starts with the Lancers generally failing as they cannot attack, and the party swarms forwards to kill one of them.  Alex comes up, freshly hasted, and slings a Phoenix Down, bringing one back, as the lancers now get their hits in.  Cyril goes down as Weapon Guard + Flame Shield + Wizard Mantle fail to stop any hits, one of which comes over a Lancer's head, thanks to Float making him an extra easy target.  However, with Fargus' pool of Items, including the freshly gained Phoenix Down, and the insane offense of Jasmin and Shaker, Alex goes down with the Lancers following shortly thereafter.  The Time Mages at the bottom are just a simple exercise in mopping up.

Izlude proved to be far more of a challenge.  His Archers were the first to go, as we tried to chip at his support first.  Unfortunatly, that soon got us in a position where Gate, armed with Spike Shoes, was able to leave us with a dead party aside from Fargus, who armed only with an Elf Mantle, was cut off from the rest of the party.  He did the only thing he could, resetting Jasmin's counter and letting Gate whiff twice against his back evade before charging forward and bringing the party back.  At this point, Shaker managed to, freshly revived, run up to a full HP Archer and land a critical hit.  Sadly, the second hit would have killed without the knockback.  Fortunatly, that one hit inflicted sleep.  At this point, Cyril is entirely a buffing/ressing machine, as is Fargus, while Jasmin and Shaker attempt to kill the support before we get killed.  During this, we get lucky and Taishyr the summoner decides his mojo is needed to heal instead of killing us.  This lets Shaker get him, and we rejoice.  At another point, Cyril (whose 52% front evade stops nothing over about a half dozen shots the entire fight) and Fargus are trapped between two Knights on a bridge unable to move, but Izlude doesn't take advantage of that to jump on us.  Finally, the battle is too much for us.  We're running low on resources, and the Knights are to mobile and putting too much pressure on us.  So we ignore them and focus on Izlude.  Fargus charges once, but the real victory comes as Jasmin drops a Salamander on Izlude for the win.  On a side note, it should be mentioned that Jasmin had Half MP learned and equipped for this battle.

Wiegraf 2, much easier battle, despite screwing up and letting him hit two people with good compatability with Lighting Stab.  Mediator Cyril manages to live, Summoner Jasmin does not.  Cyril manages to block an arrow sent his way and live to get a turn, while the Geomancer fails to status Shaker, which was the one important thing we needed to go our way.  After this, Shaker runs up, Weapon Breaks Wiegraf for a shattered weapon and free hit.  Fargus PD's Jasmin.  And Cyril and Jasmin drop summons on Wiegraf.

Grog Hill 1 - Cyril starts this battle as a Calculator with Black Magic secondary, Shaker's still in Knight, and Jasmin is still Summoner.  First action?  Slasher to Jasmin's face for .5HKO.  This is followed up by Fargus getting charmed and Cyril whiffing the attempt to uncharm him thanks to the Elf Mantle.  So, with our entire first turn eaten up simply trying to survive round 1, things are looking bad.  They never really get better, and this run ends poorly.  Didn't help that both Death attempts whiffed, and the enemy Chemists had PD and X-Potion in the right order.

Grog Hill 2 - Main change is that Shaker has Item, and Cyril goes to Squire with White Magic.  Not that it matters, Slasher dude is much weaker this time, as is the rest of the fight, and we're prepared this time.  We never lose control, and a well placed Salamander ends things quickly and brutally.

Malak's battle shows how despite his improvements, he's still the worst unit on the field as he never hits once.  Rafa, on the other hand, scores three ninja kills, and turns Shaker into a fairly dangerous person to be around for one of them, abusing the fact that she can't hit him.  Calc Death fails it up again, but it's just random chance there.  And it was at least bloody stylish to pop up on top of the houses and point at someone, saying die.  Would've cut off a summon too.  But yeah, battle was essentially over after that early swarm of two elementals and Heaven Thunder got the ninjas.

After this we go do some equipment upgrading before getting wiped out at a random in Grog Hill and deciding we were all just too tired to continue.  Next time, expect notes on Samurai/Basic Skill upgrades.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #366 on: May 21, 2009, 11:32:52 PM »
(Universal)
* Death Sentence status now ignores Dead immunity

(Items)
* Bizen Boat became Water-elemental, got Always: Faith
* Heaven's Cloud became Holy-elemental, got Start: Reraise, Weak: All Elements
* Muramasa became Dark-elemental, got Start: Transparent
* Masamune became Wind-elemental, got Speed +1, Strengthen: Wind
* Giant Axe's MA +1 increased to MA +2
* Battle Axe, Giant Axe, and Slasher's Weapon Evade reduced to 5%
* Flail availability changed (from Ch2 Save Agrias to Ch1 Enter Igros), WP decreased from 9 to 8, 1200 -> 700 gp
* Flame Whip availability changed (from Ch3 Zalmo to Ch2 Meet Draclau), WP increased from 11 to 12, lost Fire-elemental, got Strengthen: Fire, 4000 -> 2800 gp
* Morning Star availability changed (from Ch3 Save Rafa to Ch4 Start), WP increased from 16 to 18, 9000 -> 11000 gp
* Long Bow availability changed (from Ch1 Save Elmdor to Ch1 Enter Igros)
* Carabini Mail lost Half: Wind
* Judo Outfit's HP increased from 60 to 85, availability changed (from Ch3 Zalmo to Ch4 Start), 4000 -> 8000 gp
* Earth Clothes' HP decreased from 85 to 60, availability changed (from Ch4 Start to Ch3 Zalmo), 10000 -> 6000 gp
* Black Costume got Absorb: Dark
* Silk Robe got Half: Wind
* Feather Boots got Move +1, Weak: Wind
* Bracer's PA decreased from +3 to +2, 50000 -> 20000 gp
* Cursed Ring's Speed increased from +1 to +2

(Squires)
* Squires can equip Knight's Swords and Sticks
* Throw Stone and Dash (and Counter Tackle) now inflict 100% knockback

(Knights)
* Decreased Knight's Speed multiplier from 100 to 90
* Fixed Defend (bugged; was bringing up Math Skill window)
* Magic Break changed to inflict 100% dispel (as Dispel Magic) plus removes Innocent
* New JP Costs
- Shield Break: 50
- Head/Armor/Magic Break: 150
- Weapon/Power/Mind Break: 300
- Speed Break: 450

(Archers)
* New JP Costs
- Speed Save: 200 -> 300
- Arrow Guard: 350 -> 300

(Time Mages)
* Increased Time Mage's MP multiplier from 120 to 140
* Haste 2's MP cost increased from 16 to 24

(Summoners)
* Increased Summoner's MP multiplier from 125 to 175
* Decreased Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit/Silf's multipliers from 24 to 22
* Decreased Salamander's multiplier from 38 to 36, MP cost from 48 to 44
* Decreased Leviathan's multiplier from 38 to 32, MP cost from 48 to 44
* Decreased Odin's multiplier from 40 to 24, MP cost from 50 to 32
* Decreased Bahamut's multiplier from 46 to 38, MP cost from 80 to 70
* Increased Cyclops' MP cost from 60 to 66
* New JP Costs
- Bahamut: 1500 -> 1000
- Odin: 900 -> 400
- Leviathan: 850 -> 700
- Salamander: 440 -> 500
- Cyclops: 800 -> 700

(Thieves)
* Decreased Thief's PA multiplier from 100 to 90
* Thief class evade increased from 25% to 40%

(Mediators)
* Increased Mediator's HP multiplier from 85 to 95
* Decreased Mediator's MP multiplier from 75 to 65

(Geomancers)
* Decreased Geomancer's HP multiplier from 125 to 120
* Decreased Geomancer's PA multiplier from 125 to 120
* Decreased Geomancer's MA multiplier from 125 to 120

(Lancers)
* Increased Lancer's Jump stat to 5
* Increased Lancer's HP multiplier from 120 to 140
* Increased Lancer's PA multiplier from 120 to 140
* Equip Spear JP cost: 400 -> 200

(Samurai)
* Decreased Samurai's HP/MP multipliers from 75/90 to 64
* Increased Samurai's MA multiplier from 90 to 128
* Gave Samurai innate Concentrate
* Lowered Kikuichimoji's multiplier from 16 to 12
* Put Equip Knife back on Samurai to original parameters

(Ninjas)
* Decreased Ninja's HP multiplier from 60 to 50
* Decreased Ninja's PA multiplier from 122 to 102
* Ninja class evade decreased from 30% to 25%
* Removed Equip Knife from ability list

(Calculators)
* Silence Song removed from Calculator's Math Skill list
* Blind Rage removed from Calculator's Math Skill list

(Mimes)
* Increased Mime's MA Multiplier from 150 to 160
* Removed Mime's innate Concentrate, Monster Skill, and Martial Arts
* Gave Mime innate Monster Talk and Two Hands

(Monsters)
* Decreased all monsters' PA growths from 2/3 original to 4/5 original
* Chocobos/Black Chocobos/Red Chocobos became weak to Fire
* Red Panthers/Cuars/Vampires got Immune: Don't Move
* Pisco Demons/Squidlarkins/Mindflares got Immune: Berserk
* Pisco Demons/Squidlarkins/Mindflares' PA multipliers decreased to 50 (nerfs Counter Flood's damage)
* Skeletons/Bone Snatches/Living Bones got Immune: Sleep
* Ghouls/Gust/Revnants got Immune: Stop
* Flotiballs/Ahrimans/Plagues got Immune: Death Sentence and Start: Reflect
* Uribos/Porkies/Wildbows' Always: Haste changed to Start: Haste
* Morbols/Ochus/Great Morbols got Immune: Don't Act
* Decreased Behemoth's MA multiplier from 105 to 75
* Changed Stop Bracelet on Red Goblins to Secret Fist
* Changed Allure on Red Panthers to Steal Heart
* Cat Kick's multiplier decreased from 20 to 16
* Small Bomb (both) became unevadable
* Spark's multiplier decreased from 4 to 3
* Flame Attack's multiplier decreased from 8 to 6
* Mimic Titan's multiplier decreased from 4 to 3
* Leaf Dance changed to not hit allies

(Other)
* Edited Knight's equipment break skills so that AI uses them less frequently
* Fixed JP scroll glitch 'fix' with revised version (was not taking JP if the ability cost the exact same amount of JP you had)

ENDT Changes
(Chapter 1)
* Mandalia Plains: Thief changed to have fixed worst zodiac compatability with Algus
* Dorter 1: Enemies given more equipment slots
* Sand Rat Cellar: Knights got random secondaries, Monk JLVs increased, Grefter got fixed Weapon Guard and Move +1
* Lenalia Plateau: Miluda upgraded from Small Mantle to Leather Mantle, Knights upgraded from Long Swords to Iron Swords
* Windmill Shed: Wiegraf upgraded from Small Mantle to Leather Mantle, enemy Knight changed to enemy Oracle (w/ a Cypress Rod and Counter), Monks have Power Wrists
* Fort Zeakden: Algus' Night Killer upgraded to Cross Bow, Power Wrist swapped for Battle Boots, given a Round Shield, given Charge secondary and Archer JLVs

(Chapter 2)
* Dorter 2: Archers upgraded from Bow Gun/Long Bow to Long Bow/Ice Bow, all enemies given random equipment (as opposed to none) and random secondaries
* Zirekile Falls: Knights given a greater variety of JLVs and secondaries, and non-preset equipment (Broad Sword? Long Sword? Seriously?)
* Zaland Fort City: One Knight given Item secondary, fixed Throw Item and Chemist JLVs
* Barius Hill: Knights turned into Lancers, Archers turned into Geomancers
* Goug Machine City: Archers gender-swapped from female to male, given higher Archer JLVs
* Golgorand Execution Site: Time Mages got fixed Teleport
* Gate of Lionel Castle: Archers turned into Mediators, Knights turned into Lancers (with random Samurai JP)
* Inside Lionel Castle: Queklain's HP improved, got 100% Counter Magic

(Chapter 3)
* Goland Coal City: Olan got Defense UP, Chemist JLVs improved
* UBS2: Lancers' JLVs improved, Time Mages' Faith fixed to high 70s
* Inside of Riovanes Castle: Wiegraf's Accumulate replaced with Scream; Velius's reaction changed from Finger Guard to Meatbone Slash, given Two Swords, lowered PA accordingly

(Chapter 4)
* South Wall of Bethla Garrison: Samurai got fixed Move +2 and Germinas Boots
* Germinas Peak: Archers turned to Chemists (2) and Geomancer w/ Summon Magic (1)
* Gate of Limberry Castle: Apandas' HP and Speed growths increased
* Inside of Limberry Castle: Elmdor's HP improved
* Underground Cemetary of Limberry Castle: Zalera's Speed reduced (from 11 to 10)
* Chapel of St. Murond Temple: Zalbag's HP improved
* Graveyard of Airships (1): Hashmalum lost Meteor from skillset, made Melt/Tornado/Quake not hit allies (you can no longer redirect onto him)
* Graveyard of Airships (2): Altima fight changed significantly - see Encounter information for details

Documentation Fixes
* Death: Range is listed at 4, fixed to 8
* Samurai's Move in Water ability now properly described (was swapped with Walk on Water)
* Ninja's Walk in Water ability now properly described (was swapped with Move in Water)

Documentation Changes
* Items (see above)
* Class and monster descriptions (includes innates, new reactions)
* Haste 2, Salamander, Leviathan, Odin, Bahamut, Cyclops: new MP scores
* Silence Song: No longer mathskillable
* Blind Rage: No longer mathskillable
* Magic Break: Now inflicts Dispel Magic
* Equip Knife: No longer allows Ninja Swords

Ninja edits in after mc/Gate/Laggy insanity

Maintenance: 100 -> 200 JP
Defense UP/Magic DefendUP: 400 -> 300 JP

Gate of Lionel Castle: reverted enemies back to Archers/Knights after Alex pointed out lack of Rubber Shoes abuse. Liked gimmick too much to not have it around and it would make some SCCs murder with the duel.
Underground Cemetary of Riovanes Castle: Zalera's HP nerfed a touch, Skeletons given fixed (low) levels.

Not vital updates, just might as well throw them in (if you're stuck on Zalera or something for an SCC this could help >_>)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 06:11:01 PM by Laggy »
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #367 on: May 21, 2009, 11:54:14 PM »
List looks cool generally.

Well, one thing that jumps out at me that I don't like, and that's the weakening of the Skeleton Souls. I really like Skeletons the way they are now - they're mages, rare among monsters. They deal a fair bit of damage, but it's singletarget and doesn't have huge range. The existence of the Souls as a real threat ups the value of MEvade and increases the importance of elemental tolerances (e.g. the Flame Shield's Water weakness now matters!). I'd favour keeping the multiplier as is.

EDIT: Oh, a second concern is Muramasa's Transparent. I worry that this gives the player too easy access to Vanish/Chantage instant victory. I mean, yeah, you aren't sealing off cheese entirely, and true, teaching Ramza Sunken State and having the Chantage-user throw a Shuriken/attack with a Rod/etc. isn't -that- much harder than equipping a storebought item, but I'm still not sure it's a direction you want to move in. Cool enough effect otherwise.

EDIT2!: Bracer needs a price cut, unless it already got one and I didn't see it. It being 2.5x the cost of Magic Guantlet no longer makes any sense!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 12:34:58 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #368 on: May 22, 2009, 12:42:17 AM »
Yes, yes it does. Good catch. It'll drop to 20000 to match.

EDIT: On the other points... Chantage already breaks the game, and the problem lies in it, not Muramasa (Vanish Mantle exists as well). So if players are going to go to that extent.... yeah, I'm not going to bother trying to close that loophole. Skeletons I talked to mc with and we generally agreed they'd be fine at the current LFT mults (our main concern was with Zalera).
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 01:42:09 AM by Laggy »
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #369 on: May 22, 2009, 03:55:25 AM »
Updated patch has been uploaded, changelog has also been updated on first post.
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #370 on: May 22, 2009, 04:22:19 AM »
Suppose I should comment on the last minute stealth edits:

Quote
* Increased Summoner's MP multiplier from 125 to 175

* Increased Time Mage's MP multiplier from 120 to 140

(Mediators)
* Increased Mediator's HP multiplier from 85 to 95
* Decreased Mediator's HP multiplier from 75 to 65

Summoners now have about 8 more MP than other classes at level 1, which goes up to about 40 more at level 40.

From here I got one of my silly symmetry inspiration things of...what if the parallel mage classes all added up to 240 for MP multiplier?  Priest (120) + Wizard (120) = 240, Oracle (100) + Time Mage (140) = 240, etc.

What does this actually change?  Time Mages are now second best at everything mage-y.  Second best MA.  Second best MP.  Second best speed.  Second best durability (Float!)  Second-rate weaponry.  It's...3 more MP at level 1, growing to 15 more MP at level 40, so...it can't be expected to break them or anything.  It does give them an actual offensive niche, though (highest MP of non-slow classes) which is something they just...didn't have before (when their only particular stat niche was defensive in float).

Oracles get competition in the MP department.  Oracles still never run out, but now it can no longer be said that "and they match the other classes for MP after one Move-MP Up"--you might actually need TWO Move MP-Ups.

Mediator...well 65+175 = 240, so that's where the idea started.  Laggy didn't feel Mediators needed a nerf, though so...for classes that don't use MP naturally, generally HP+10, MP-10 is an overall buff.  This also has a number of bonuses I like: differentiates them more from Squires MP-wise; differentiates them more from Chemists in general (no longer tie MP, and the HP gap is wider).

Quote
* Increased Lancer's HP multiplier from 120 to 140
* Increased Lancer's PA multiplier from 120 to 140
So...it's not 150 PA as originally planned.  Could it have been?  ...Probably.  But at the same time, one of the goals of this update was "people are mentioning how everything being buffed makes stuff a OHKO-fest; let's try to tone back damage a little."

On a similar note, could their HP be like...200?  Probably...but the thing is they're supposed to be different from Knights because they have power and range while Knights have durability; a huge HP spike would put them into "super-durable" range too.  So...we'll test 140/140, and if people still feel Lancers are lacking we can go from there.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 04:25:34 AM by metroid composite »

Just Another Day

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #371 on: May 22, 2009, 06:28:58 AM »
re: Draclau, the more I think about it (which is more than I should be), I think it was something token to do with Dark, either Strengthen (hilarious; my cape makes me more evil! But risks overpowering Murmasa, I'd worry) or Absorb (probably still fine, though redundant with Black Costume). Possibly that plus make it MEvade dominant? (something like 24/32?)

re: everything else, looks good to me. Concur (redundantly) with the elf on skeletons being fine as is. I really like Odin as the weak cheap big spread spell. Like where the mages are going.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 06:48:34 AM by Just Another Day »

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #372 on: May 22, 2009, 07:11:09 AM »
I think it was something token to do with Dark, either Strengthen (hilarious; my cape makes me more evil! But risks overpowering Murmasa now)
Muramasa can already be strengthened with 108 gems.  Or just combined with Bracer.  Also, it's a katana, so it's kinda crappy on the attack.
Quote
Nom math.
Oh that reminds me I should comment on the Math Skill changes.

We were thinking up DD battles like "okay, say there's 11 Holyswordsmen surrounding you on all sides, can you win this?"  These were ending in "well sure, Blind Rage them with Math Skill, then Blade Grasp."  For all that we're not worried about ultimate combos generally, this is a combo that handled more or less every hypothetical battle that didn't have some kind of explicitly anti-math setup (like 03 faith, etc).  It was interfering with our ability to create optional superfights in a way that, say, Sunken Stated Dance never could (SSD can be blitzed during its two turn setup, requires multiple units with weird setups).

Silence?  A few months ago Laggy was actually arguing that Silence should be dropped from Math while keeping Berserk.  The argument being that Silence doesn't stop Math Skill, or most of the skillsets in the game, and most of the ones it does stop were probably already considering Golden Hairpin for equipment.  In other words, it ends up as too much of a no-brainer a lot of the time.  Besides the Silence Song animation gets seen plenty through the Oracle skillset.

That leaves us with innocent as Mathskill's anti-mage ability--a spell that you almost never see the animation for nomrally, which can't use equipment-block-cheese, and which can't be removed through Mathskill itself.  This is a much better design fit for neo-Mathskill philosophically.

This wasn't necessarily a balance issue (actually for day-to-day use mathskilled Confusion Song felt more useful more often than Silence/Berserk) more of a "doing it this way is just a better design fit".
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 07:15:36 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #373 on: May 22, 2009, 01:05:07 PM »
Alright, so I downloaded the new patch and burnt me a disc, and used this as an excuse to start a new game as my previous attempt didn't get very far before I got distracted.  I think this time I'm going to aim for a Samurai Ramza in honour of the buffing the class got.  Unsure what I'm going to do with my other four generics or the rest of the party.  Just that I'm going to be taking my time and leisurely exploring the game at a pace I find enjoyable.  The starting four generics, all starting characters I decided to keep, have been evenly split by gender and class path, so I'll likely be referring to them as Fighter Guy/Girl, and Caster Guy/Girl.

Things begin with my first offensive action being a Dash attack in Gariland to get that enemy squire off the roof.  Oddly, this fails to knock back.  But it's not Knock Back immunity, as another squire comes up and gets her off the roof with a well placed rock.  The rest of the battle is fairly straight forward.

Saving Algus is actually possible now.  I mean, sure, he still died for me, but it wasn't on the first turn despite all three hits connecting and one of them being a max damage crit.  It was because I let the cat live too long and it landed a good variance Cat Kick on Algus.  Dash did it's thing here, notably, in a decent move by the AI to kill my Chemist despite having only one place to attack her from.  Dash doesn't fail, but a Throw Stone does.  Figuring it may have something to do with uneven terrain, but if so, I'm not precisely sure what.  Regardless, at the end of this, I notice that Fighter Chick has a good chunk of Squire JP already, so I just decide to have her master the skillset, and leave the rest alone.  Ramza goes Knight to head for Samurai, Fighter Guy goes Archer, because I have Long Bows, Caster Guy stays Chemist to get Phoenix Downs while Caster Chick goes Wizard for fighting power.

Maybe it's the presence of the Wizard, maybe it's because I've learned not to recklessly charge forward against monsters anymore, or maybe it's just the buffs.  But Sweegy Woods is easily beaten.  So, on to Dorter.  My Long Bow Archer makes quick work of the Mages, and the Longbow Archer is too dumb not to stand right next to the edge of the roof.  So, I have Fighter Chick tackle him.  Idiot that he is, he hops right back up again, so Delita chucks a rock at him, letting the second fall kill him.  Ramza tools around on the ground, but the lower speed is very noticeable and he doesn't do much besides slashing at a few people.  Regardless, at this point it's all mopping up.  Between the Longbow availability paired with Ignore Height, and the guaranteed knockback, this battle is now fairly easy.  It also gives enough JP for me to get PD, so Caster Guy heads over to Priest so he can start unlocking Bard.

Sand Rat Cellar on the other hand, is less so.  First time, I almost manage it.  Delita gets himself killed right away, while Algus really only manages to distract Grefter for a few rounds.  Meanwhile, the Monks are the real issue due to their reliably having Repeating Fist.  The archer, is nifty, but has a bad habit of jumping up onto the walls and starting to charge an attack on the same tick Fighter Chick (now an Archer herself as Fighter Guy has happily moved on to Thief), which just leads to him eating a rock with some fall damage.  But, just as I'm about to pull it off, Algus flakes out, running the hell away despite having half his HP so Grefter comes over and kills a mage.  Things get worse when a really good repeating Fist takes out Ramza, and I'm swamped.  Take 2 ends fairly quickly, with the twin Repeating Fist Monks having a bit of luck, and me making a few questionable opening moves.

Finally, Take 3.  This time I open with a Yell on Ramza so that he's at Speed 6 like the rest of the map that isn't Knights.  The Monks again both have Repeating Fist, but this time I make a point of a) replacing my Wizard with my Thief, and b) fighting over on Delita's side of the battle where the monks are, and killing them first.  It works.  I get the monks down fairly quickly, as well as the Archer who tries pulling out Charge +4 this time, only to face a rock, and then an attack from above.  This leads to the enemies chucking their own rock, really emphasizing that fall damage will be important in any battle with Basic Skill.  Battle is drawn out thanks to Delita running away from my party and trailing Grefter with him, happily using up my potion supply as he does so.  But it gets Fighter Chick the JP for Accumulate, completing her set, so whatever.  Also nets me some Crystals and a Leather Vest, so all good.

At this point, Ramza's done with Knight, so he heads over to Monk and picks up Repeating Fist himself.  And, it's time for a showdown with Miluda.  The battle is over fairly quickly with not much to say.  Two Thieves and a Mage were down on the first round (thanks in part to charging, and thanks in part to the other mages casting POIZN!), and the battle never recovered.

Swapping Caster Chick from Black Mage to Time Mage at this point in order to get to Summoner.  Caster Guy heads to Wizard having stayed overly long in Priest.  And it's time for Miluda 2!  This time I get to wipe out two mages on the first turn, leaving only the one wizard casting Poison.  This is when I discover that Miluda has Revive.  And the Wizard I didn't kill has Raise.  So, I kill that Wizard dead, and spend the rest of the battle rekilling the mages as Miluda brings them back to life, while trying to batter her other two knights into submission.  In the end, Miluda never does anything but cast Revive as I finally take her down.  LVP of this match?  Caster Chick, who I forgot to get Haste for, nor switch her secondary from White Magic to Black Magic.  Or get a weapon for, not that it would have mattered if she could do 2 damage, or 8.

And that's as far as I got.  Well, there was a random encounter.  Mostly involve Red Panthers whiffing a lot with Charm, Yell paying off in huge ways, and Stop Bracelet keeping Ramza from doing much of anything when paired with Poison Nail spam on the rest of my party.  But other than that, nothing much of note.

Initial impressions.  I like the 100% Knockback a lot.  Makes it so that you pay more attention to ledges and fall damage becomes something worth noting.  Monsters, are still generally challenging and unique without being quite as overpowering as they were before.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #374 on: May 22, 2009, 02:32:26 PM »
I think it was something token to do with Dark, either Strengthen (hilarious; my cape makes me more evil! But risks overpowering Muramasa now)
Muramasa can already be strengthened with 108 gems.  Or just combined with Bracer.  Also, it's a katana, so it's kinda crappy on the attack.

Fair enough. A Mantle just feels somewhat more... credible as an accessory choice (although I guess 108 gem's esoteric statuses are somewhat more likely to come into play), but I s'pose there's not a huge qualitative jump, particularly with Samurai as a pretty credible late-game magic carrier now. My vote (in this non-democracy) is for Draclau Mantle as a MEvade primary Darkness strengthener, then ^_^

Initial impressions.  I like the 100% Knockback a lot.  Makes it so that you pay more attention to ledges and fall damage becomes something worth noting.  Monsters, are still generally challenging and unique without being quite as overpowering as they were before.

Sounds like a side-effect of reliable knockback is tough on Archers, which is a bit of a shame. I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but maybe there should be vertical range on throw stone?