Author Topic: FF9 stat topic discussion  (Read 12081 times)

PKNintendo

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« on: May 06, 2009, 11:45:23 PM »
Dude, how can you forget Thievery?

OblivionKnight

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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2009, 11:59:25 PM »
I've been bugging about that for a while!

Anyway, as an explanation:

Thievery, Dragon Crest, and some other stuff maxes at 9999.  If you take that at max, the others go to max.  And that...well, helps Zidane, but not a huge amount.  I see it and all the others maxed myself, but most people don't, since it's a very subjective thing.  Average stealing by end-game is...around 4k?  I always had it maxed,so... >_>
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 12:00:22 AM »
Dude, how can you forget Thievery?
Probably something to do with it taking a long time to get to any serious power.

Though I would like a figure for what it would be like at the end of a playthrough of someone who took time to get most boss steals and any other really useful steals.
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PKNintendo

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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 12:20:52 AM »
Like me.  ;D

But yeah, it isn't too bad. I mean the formula
[# of successful Steals * Zidane's Speed / 2]

So it's not all that bad. I thought it was automatically considered. (Since doing so will make him have the strongest move that has a fixed 9999 or close to that.)

For example, in my game it's around 5000 ish. If you take an hour or so, with random encounters + stealing, you can get it quite high. (I mean Soul blade is nice, but Thievery is GREAT too)


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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2009, 04:26:15 AM »
You need to successfully steal almost 700 times over the course of the game to get Thievery to 9999. Assuming you steal thrice from every boss (since, from my memory, those were the ones with stuff actually worth stealing in FF9) and there are, say, fourty bosses over the course of the game, you've gotten roughly 1/6 of the amount of times you need to steal to reach it that high assuming stat topic endgame speed values. Assuming the numbers I just pulled out of my ass, Thievery would deal 1740 damage, which... uuuuuuhhhh... isn't very respectable. The formula is pretty bad unless you're a bonafide kleptomaniac who steals from just about every random in the game. Your mileage may vary, but I find that kind of time-wasting in randoms very unproductive and inefficient. More practical to look up a FAQ to see which monsters have which steals you'd care about.

EDIT: The point being that you'd need a rather extensive string of bosses assuming that view, and there may have been a bunch of them who didn't even have three steals (or more than one worthwhile steal). Assuming three per boss, for that to match his DL physical, the game would have to have... about one hundred bosses. That's rather a lot.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 04:41:05 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Meeplelard

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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 05:32:44 AM »
Having recently replayed FF9, I had Thievery doing roughly 4500 end game.  I think based on Zidane's Speed, that means he stole about 300 times total?  Honestly don't remember.

I wasn't meticulous about stealing, mind.  Zidane would mostly steal in fights where his turn wouldn't matter (ie the other 3 characters could kill everything without his help)...which is pretty often considering FF9's style, barring that section on Disc 2 where he's your only physical fighter (aka only source of MPless damage <_<.)  He did have higher speed than the DL, but I think I remember compensating for that (alternatively, if Thievery WAS Zidane's primary source of damage, he could use a speed boosting weapon like Orihalcon or something.)

In any event, Thievery at best is only marginally stronger than his physical for these purposes.  This isn't to say that it wouldn't be useful, mind.  Thievery suddenly lets Zidane have Defense Ignoring, and can  make use of more Soul Blades like  The Ogre's Blind or ones that cause Sleep/Confusion cause I don't think Thievery knocks enemies out of that status, not to mention it gets Zidane around Evade and such.

Basically, Thievery being roughly even with Zidane's Physical is about the extent I'd see it in the DL, though even that would be a huge help just cause Thievery is so much more useful utility applications that a physical doesn't.

The "It wastes time on randoms" thing, as I noted, is a shaky argument though.  Again, FF9 has *4* PCs, and typically, you can kill entire fights, especially second half of the game, with the other PCs.  Bandit gives Zidane a 100% Steal on his first shot (so long as the enemy has a common steal), so nabbing an item isn't too tough.  Also, there are some good items from randoms here and there (summon stones, Ethers, etc.)  I'm not saying "YOU MUST DO THIS!" or something, just saying its more reasonable than you're giving it credit for.
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 05:54:49 AM »
Meeple just hit my view of it perfectly.

I was a non-stealing amateur when I first played it, but I fully intend to steal extensively when I replay, and given the cool stuff you can get... yeah, I basically see it as a substitute for his physical. Could someone test whether or not it knocks people out of sleep?
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 06:06:06 PM »
Don't think Steal itself does. Mug probably does, though.
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Talaysen

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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 06:23:32 PM »
EDIT: haha i am stupid
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 06:33:08 PM by Talaysen »

Yoshiken

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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 06:29:55 PM »
But yeah, it isn't too bad. I mean the formula
[# of successful Steals * Zidane's Speed / 2]

Just pointing out that since the formula is known, you can just calculate how many steals you need to get it to 9999.  It's only 435, which is uh a lot less than 700 guys.

Going by the formula above, I've got it as 625 steals with optimum speed equips, and 690 otherwise. ._.
Not sure if I'm doing something wrong there, but if I am, I can't find it.

Talaysen

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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 06:32:29 PM »
Going by the formula above, I've got it as 625 steals with optimum speed equips, and 690 otherwise. ._.
Not sure if I'm doing something wrong there, but if I am, I can't find it.

Oh, you're right.  I was looking at the wrong number for some reason...

I remember maxing it in my game so I figured it'd need less steals but I guess I just stole more than I thought.

Dhyerwolf

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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2009, 07:17:57 PM »
You need to successfully steal almost 700 times over the course of the game to get Thievery to 9999. Assuming you steal thrice from every boss (since, from my memory, those were the ones with stuff actually worth stealing in FF9) and there are, say, fourty bosses over the course of the game, you've gotten roughly 1/6 of the amount of times you need to steal to reach it that high assuming stat topic endgame speed values. Assuming the numbers I just pulled out of my ass, Thievery would deal 1740 damage, which... uuuuuuhhhh... isn't very respectable. The formula is pretty bad unless you're a bonafide kleptomaniac who steals from just about every random in the game. Your mileage may vary, but I find that kind of time-wasting in randoms very unproductive and inefficient. More practical to look up a FAQ to see which monsters have which steals you'd care about.

EDIT: The point being that you'd need a rather extensive string of bosses assuming that view, and there may have been a bunch of them who didn't even have three steals (or more than one worthwhile steal). Assuming three per boss, for that to match his DL physical, the game would have to have... about one hundred bosses. That's rather a lot.

This would basically be the reason I didn't include it, along with the number being ridiculously subjective (given that the damage range goes from about 2000 to 10000...well, I might see it even lower. Stealing is worth it on the early bosses, but near the end you already have better stuff). The best I could do is include the formula, which isn't very enlightening or helpful.
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PKNintendo

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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2009, 09:01:38 PM »
Having recently replayed FF9, I had Thievery doing roughly 4500 end game.  I think based on Zidane's Speed, that means he stole about 300 times total?  Honestly don't remember.

I wasn't meticulous about stealing, mind.  Zidane would mostly steal in fights where his turn wouldn't matter (ie the other 3 characters could kill everything without his help)...which is pretty often considering FF9's style, barring that section on Disc 2 where he's your only physical fighter (aka only source of MPless damage <_<.)  He did have higher speed than the DL, but I think I remember compensating for that (alternatively, if Thievery WAS Zidane's primary source of damage, he could use a speed boosting weapon like Orihalcon or something.)

In any event, Thievery at best is only marginally stronger than his physical for these purposes.  This isn't to say that it wouldn't be useful, mind.  Thievery suddenly lets Zidane have Defense Ignoring, and can  make use of more Soul Blades like  The Ogre's Blind or ones that cause Sleep/Confusion cause I don't think Thievery knocks enemies out of that status, not to mention it gets Zidane around Evade and such.

Basically, Thievery being roughly even with Zidane's Physical is about the extent I'd see it in the DL, though even that would be a huge help just cause Thievery is so much more useful utility applications that a physical doesn't.

The "It wastes time on randoms" thing, as I noted, is a shaky argument though.  Again, FF9 has *4* PCs, and typically, you can kill entire fights, especially second half of the game, with the other PCs.  Bandit gives Zidane a 100% Steal on his first shot (so long as the enemy has a common steal), so nabbing an item isn't too tough.  Also, there are some good items from randoms here and there (summon stones, Ethers, etc.)  I'm not saying "YOU MUST DO THIS!" or something, just saying its more reasonable than you're giving it credit for.

Yeah, I had hit in the 4000's the first time I played so it's respectable.

Actually, your point is really good actually.
Of course, it would be a tad cheap/annoying if we maxed out thievery. (Dealing a fixed 9999! Ouch!)


@ Ranbou, stealing from random encounters got you some nice stuff to. For example, free tents, hi-potions (which aren't sold until mid-late Disk 2.) Annoyments, Softs,  and stuff to counter what random encounters had.
But yeah, well said guys.

Here's a sad story I went through. It in Gizamuluke's grotto (sp?) I didn't buy any potions or tents, and I had to steal Hi-Potions from the enemies there. (Let's just say I had to reset alot)
and the boss was a nightmare until I had a decent amount of potions.

Well said fellows.

PS: I honestly had this fear that you banned thievery!

PS2: Haha, I would have seriously complained if Beatrix was anything short of Godlike.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 09:08:01 PM by PKNintendo »

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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2009, 06:02:14 AM »
Um. Since everyone was posting here a lot, I was messing around with stuff in the stat topic (damage averages without the damage cap, etc.) and... the listed damage average is wrong. Whoever did it, because you did the 'tied for first' and had Zidane listed as number 8, divided by 8 instead of the actual cast size of 9.

The actual average should be 6902, with a kill point of 17255.

And hit me with something if I made a stupid obvious mistake.
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2009, 06:20:14 AM »
Beatrix isn't a permanent PC, so she doesn't get taken into the PC averages. That might be your confusion.
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2009, 06:21:56 AM »
Averages
Damage
1. Steiner 9999
1. Garnet 9999
3. Eiko 9730
4. Amarant 8961
5. Vivi 8761 (7921 without MP+20%)
6. Freya 5507
7. Quina 4950
8. Zidane 4212
Average: 7765 (Kill Point 19412) (7660/19150 without MP+20%)

I was using the numbers listed right here.

Unless that's the problem.
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2009, 06:25:16 AM »
No, what I mean is that you shouldn't have divided by 9. The cast has eight PCs, not nine. Notice how the two 1s lead into a 3 instead of a 2. There's no mistake there.
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 06:28:08 AM »
No, what I mean is that you shouldn't have divided by 9. The cast has eight PCs, not nine. Notice how the two 1s lead into a 3 instead of a 2. There's no mistake there.
Aha! I knew it was probably my counting mistake.

Thank you.
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PKNintendo

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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2009, 12:57:05 AM »
I noticed Zidane's power being so low. Why couldn't you at LEAST included Thievery, which also does 9999 *Conditional.

Sure it's cheap, and most people don't go for max, but I think we can scale the damage for a little over half. I'll begin to test it when I replay the game. (I won't be klepto, and still when I feel necessary= ALL bosses, and most enemies for some nifty stuff)

Did you factor Amarant's 50% throw boost magic stone
 so he can max? (9999)

(Whats up with Quina's Frog Drop, it says ITD)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 12:59:02 AM by PKNintendo »

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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2009, 05:00:00 AM »
Stealing from most of the random enemies would qualify as being klepto to me. >_> And he did factor in the throws. And Quina's Frog Drop is also effectively ITD, since its formula doesn't factor in enemy defense at all.
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TranceHime

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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2009, 05:59:49 PM »
(Whats up with Quina's Frog Drop, it says ITD)

If you don't know what ITD is it's Ignore Target Defense @_@?
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2009, 07:14:13 PM »
Not to be confused with "ID" which stands for "Instant Death"
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2009, 07:36:15 PM »
Not to be confused with "DT" which stands for "Defensive Tackle."
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2009, 07:45:40 PM »
Or 'delirium tremens'
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« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2009, 08:47:53 PM »
Stealing from most of the random enemies would qualify as being klepto to me. >_> And he did factor in the throws. And Quina's Frog Drop is also effectively ITD, since its formula doesn't factor in enemy defense at all.

Klepto huh?
Zidane's Thievery is also ITD. (How did you get that number anyway? The formula IIRC was Number of frogs eaten caught X Quina's lvl. How did you get that number?

How about you steal once? My brother (who by the way has called Zidane by the name of Zhako)
has him steal at least once or twice per match. He's at the ice caverns where each turn (assuming each fight is against 2 Wyerds)

Turn one. Zidane is the fastest, he steals. Most of the time he gets a potion. If Steiner's next, he attacks the Wyerd. Doesn't die. Vivi uses MT fire, and Garnet's on standbye until they use the HP switching attack.

For that ONE steal per match, you can work your way up for a good amount of damage on Thievery.
It doesn't help that Zidane attacks those Wyerd's on the first turn since Vivi+Steiner deals with them. He can attack on the final turn for the KO.

Anyway that's one example.

I mean, you should at least include Thievery on the list (Zidane being the second weakest is odd >_>)
And put it at least 4500 ITD (Again HOW did you get 4950? Is that what you got in game?)

Also it could be flipped 2 ways. Collecting to many frogs can be considered... Frogtomania.

PS: Sorry I sound a bit imposing.