Author Topic: Proving grounds: M/H  (Read 701 times)

superaielman

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Proving grounds: M/H
« on: September 22, 2016, 02:27:34 AM »
Black Mage (FFT)- Mega magic blitz! (Please don't ask about the durability)
Lawfer: high damage but backended. Seems right to have him in this range.
Fei- Wondering how people take him nowadays.
Fuse: Needed a healer and he's always fun.

Black Mage vs Knight (FF1)
Black Mage vs Fujin (FF8)
Black Mage vs Kain (TAY)
Black Mage vs Ray (FE6)
Black Mage vs Articuno (PKMN)
Black Mage vs Angelo (DQ8)
Black Mage vs Fayt (SO3)
Black Mage vs Rune (PS4)
Black Mage vs Marle (CT)
Black Mage vs Yuffie (FF7)
Black Mage vs Mario (SMRPG)
Black Mage vs Dart (LoD)

Lawfer vs Knight (FF1)
Lawfer vs Fujin (FF8)
Lawfer vs Kain (TAY)
Lawfer vs Ray (FE6)
Lawfer vs Articuno (PKMN)
Lawfer vs Angelo (DQ8)
Lawfer vs Fayt (SO3)
Lawfer vs Rune (PS4)
Lawfer vs Marle (CT)
Lawfer vs Yuffie (FF7)
Lawfer vs Mario (SMRPG)
Lawfer vs Dart (LoD)

Fei vs Knight (FF1)
Fei vs Fujin (FF8)
Fei vs Kain (TAY)
Fei vs Ray (FE6)
Fei vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fei vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fei vs Fayt (SO3)
Fei vs Rune (PS4)
Fei vs Marle (CT)
Fei vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fei vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fei vs Dart (LoD)

Fuse vs Knight (FF1)
Fuse vs Fujin (FF8)
Fuse vs Kain (TAY)
Fuse vs Ray (FE6)
Fuse vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fuse vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fuse vs Fayt (SO3)
Fuse vs Rune (PS4)
Fuse vs Marle (CT)
Fuse vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fuse vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fuse vs Dart (LoD)
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Cmdr_King

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Re: Proving grounds: M/H
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2016, 03:32:05 AM »
Black Mage vs Knight (FF1)
Black Mage vs Fujin (FF8)
Black Mage vs Kain (TAY)- I think?
Black Mage vs Ray (FE6)
Black Mage vs Articuno (PKMN)
Black Mage vs Angelo (DQ8)
Black Mage vs Fayt (SO3)
Black Mage vs Rune (PS4)
Black Mage vs Marle (CT)
Black Mage vs Yuffie (FF7)
Black Mage vs Mario (SMRPG)
Black Mage vs Dart (LoD)

4-8

Lawfer vs Knight (FF1)
Lawfer vs Fujin (FF8)
Lawfer vs Kain (TAY)
Lawfer vs Ray (FE6)
Lawfer vs Articuno (PKMN)
Lawfer vs Angelo (DQ8)
Lawfer vs Fayt (SO3)
Lawfer vs Rune (PS4)
Lawfer vs Marle (CT)
Lawfer vs Yuffie (FF7)
Lawfer vs Mario (SMRPG)
Lawfer vs Dart (LoD)

6-6

Fei vs Knight (FF1)
Fei vs Fujin (FF8)
Fei vs Kain (TAY)
Fei vs Ray (FE6)-  So I vote with Yamikei.  But this one I actually looked up without.  Fei should double roughly every 7 turns.  Ray deals ~51% damage, Inner Healing covers about 42.5% of average HP.  He can Iron Valor turn 1, just barely live to that first double turn, and kill then.  Fun stuff.
Fei vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fei vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fei vs Fayt (SO3)
Fei vs Rune (PS4)
Fei vs Marle (CT)
Fei vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fei vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fei vs Dart (LoD)

9-3

Fuse vs Knight (FF1)
Fuse vs Fujin (FF8)
Fuse vs Kain (TAY)- Hum.  Unless Blink lets you dodge stuff that would otherwise ignore evade anyways.
Fuse vs Ray (FE6)
Fuse vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fuse vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fuse vs Fayt (SO3)
Fuse vs Rune (PS4)
Fuse vs Marle (CT)
Fuse vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fuse vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fuse vs Dart (LoD)

8-4
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 01:16:42 AM by Cmdr_King »
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Re: Proving grounds: M/H
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2016, 04:47:24 AM »
Wizard vs Knight (FF1) - Not OHKO'd.
Wizard vs Fujin (FF8) - Assuming that Wizard has some way to block Confuse & Silence at the same time that doesn't completely tank her magic damage.  Although..  getting slower than Fujin might well be hard, she's also pretty slow, which is weirdly good.  But whatever.
Wizard vs Ray (FE6) - Raigh easily survives the Flare hit.  Also magic triangle if it matters.
Wizard vs Articuno (PKMN) - who needs flare when Fire2/Bolt2 hit weakness.  or Bolt3 if needed.  Except...  whoa, that still isn't enough to KO, RIP.
Wizard vs Angelo (DQ8) - Bounce -> LOL
Wizard vs Fayt (SO3) - Not OHKO'd
Wizard vs Marle (CT) - Marle is kind of a magic tank who also immunes status.  rekt
Wizard vs Yuffie (FF7) - Wizard finally scores a Flare OHKO.
Wizard vs Dart (LoD) - Back to "not OHKO'd."

2-7
Wizard is not particularly happy that I enforce FFT charge times, although it hardly even mattered here.

Lawfer vs Knight (FF1) - Rare footage of Lawfer living to turn 2 and failing to kill his target, even assuming a pure slugfest with no RUSE shenanigans.
Lawfer vs Fujin (FF8) - uh comes down to breakable all-status blockers hype.  i'll be generous, especially since Lawfer arguably KOs on turn 1 anyway.
Lawfer vs Ray (FE6) - Raigh only 3HKOs, not 2HKOs, and has below-average Move.
Lawfer vs Articuno (PKMN) - Mind Reader - Sheer Cold.
Lawfer vs Angelo (DQ8) - Kathwack.
Lawfer vs Fayt (SO3) - Eh, Lawfer overkills by more if he goes first.
Lawfer vs Marle (CT) - more status nonsense, could go either way based on accessory interp.  No Confuse in VP1 though which counts a little.
Lawfer vs Yuffie (FF7) - Yuffie CAN win, it just requires 3HKOing first via attack -> Limit -> immediately attack again before Lawfer's 2nd turn.  I'm skeptical though.
Lawfer vs Dart (LoD)

6-3

Kokei Fei has .49 PCHP damage off good speed & with good status blockers, or .23 PCHP magic damage.  I'm not sure how much hype Counter Force is worth, never used it.

Fei vs Knight (FF1) - haha no.
Fei vs Fujin (FF8) - Good blockers even if Fujin gets a turn.
Fei vs Ray (FE6) - Nosferatu Raigh gets doubled for me (Fei is 115% average speed = 22 speed, Nosferatu is AS 18), Flux Raigh isn't.  Flux counter -> Nos & heal up, Fei attacks and would double & kill but eats a 2nd Nos hit in the middle...  yeah, no way he survives Flux + 2x Nos.  Fei needs Counter Force to increase magic evasion (which it might??) to win here.
Fei vs Articuno (PKMN) - Kakei (the Fire deathblow) 2HKOs here, but barely.  (Like, .63 PCHP damage after doubling, vs. a claimed 1.21 PDur.)  So...  Reflect, then Roost, then Mind Reader Sheer Cold nonsense?  I think Articuno wins if you let it use a very custom moveset that has literally no damage moves, but will probably lose otherwise.  Eh, abstain.
Fei vs Angelo (DQ8) - Thwack.
Fei vs Fayt (SO3) - Assuming Fei isn't 2HKO'd here and 3HKOs first.
Fei vs Marle (CT) - Haste-Heal is go, even though Fei blocks Confuse.
Fei vs Yuffie (FF7) - Don't think I'd let Yuffie limit in the middle of a deathblow, Fei is faster & 2HKOs.
Fei vs Dart (LoD) - By the time Dart transforms on turn 2, he'll halve damage, but it doesn't matter because he'll be nearly dead anyway.

4-4

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving grounds: M/H
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2016, 09:58:21 PM »
Black Mage vs Knight (FF1) - Toad is probably turn 1 against DoS Knight's poor Mdef, though it does need to be here.
Black Mage vs Ray (FE6) - Ray's magic durability isn't amazing or anything... but it likely doesn't matter, Wizard's best hope is to equip a N-Kai Armlet for dark halving and apply toad which is going to perform very poorly against Ray's RES (Flare shouldn't 2HKO through the draining to me anyways), he'll probably kill anyways before it connects.    Except Life Drain can be counter-magic'd ingame so maybe not?  Hmmm.  Though since this does require a fairly generous interp in Wizard's favor I'm probably not going to tiebreak in favor of it.  Probably best to abstain for the time being.
Black Mage vs Articuno (PKMN) - White Robe makes Articuno damage fairly bad here... but Wizard needs -agas to outdo Flare here and Pressure/Roost/Agility makes that a poor strategy, and again Toad is probably going to be fairly bad on accuracy here.
Black Mage vs Rune (PS4) - Negatis is out, but does it matter when Legeon should 2HKO first anyways?
Black Mage vs Marle (CT) - Wizard trying anything against Marle here, no.  If Wizard tries to block Stop/Confuse and go for a death strat Marle just comes in with Sonic Arrow and drops half a dozen Ice 2s on Wizard's head off of the impending turnsplit.
Black Mage vs Yuffie (FF7) - Flare may not end up OHKOing to me?  Would have to run numbers.
Black Mage vs Mario (SMRPG) - well Mario's first turn speed is very problematic to me and means he actually needs to worry about Toad.  Okay then, Trueform Pin... except his first turn speed is still very problematic and is probably not beating out the first Flare.  I think that once that happens Wizard can just use something fast-charging to seal the deal.
Black Mage vs Dart (LoD) - Well Dart is technically below average MDef... probably not by enough that Toad becomes turn 1 so Dart probably 2HKOs anyways.

Lawfer vs Knight (FF1) - I think I'm fairly comfortable with Splash/Energy Ring combo hype for Lawfer these days since he's the only VP1 dueler who actually benefits from the combo to me, although having to sacrifice HP by giving up the Material Gem to pull off OHKOs isn't something he likes.  That said Knight is quite good against Justice Stream anyways, he surely shouldn't be even 2HKO'd by that strategy.
Lawfer vs Fujin (FF8) - While I normally don't vote on Fujin... I'm comfortable enough in my recollection of her that I'm willing to see her getting OHKO'd.
Lawfer vs Ray (FE6) - OHKOs
Lawfer vs Articuno (PKMN) - oh right he does extra to the fire weak, that's not going to be pretty.
Lawfer vs Rune (PS4) - Faster, Negatis gives no shits.
Lawfer vs Marle (CT)
Lawfer vs Yuffie (FF7) - Should do that OHKO thing first.
Lawfer vs Mario (SMRPG) - Even with Ghost Bracer, Mario should still be 2HKO'd first.
Lawfer vs Dart (LoD) - Well Dart shouldn't be OHKO'd here... too bad he goes second and has no means of OHKOing a Material Gemless Lawfer himself.

He doesn't like how his OHKO strat makes him somewhat fragile or that he's average speed, and manages to somehow hate status more than the average VP1 dueler does, but OHKOing on demand is pretty hard to argue with, though not the fuck is he even doing here levels of insane.

Fei vs Knight (FF1)
Fei vs Ray (FE6)
Fei vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fei vs Rune (PS4)
Fei vs Marle (CT)
Fei vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fei vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fei vs Dart (LoD)

Fuse vs Knight (FF1)
Fuse vs Ray (FE6)
Fuse vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fuse vs Rune (PS4)
Fuse vs Marle (CT)
Fuse vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fuse vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fuse vs Dart (LoD)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 05:22:22 PM by Random Consonant »

Tide

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Re: Proving grounds: M/H
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2016, 11:49:03 PM »
Black Mage vs Fujin (FF8) - Golden Hairpin + N-Kai should stop Silence/Confuse, which is all that matters. If you don't take Charge Times into consideration, she just one shots with Flare.
Black Mage vs Ray (FE6) - If the assumptions all need to line up for Wizard to win, then I'm seeing this as a Ray victory since its unlikely that she gets all the calls in her favour.
Black Mage vs Articuno (PKMN) - White Robe gives Arti some serious issues but it should still manage. The best chance is for Wizard is to land Toad which starts at like base 50% accuracy and is further reduced by MDef. So um...probably not.
Black Mage vs Angelo (DQ8) - Oh right, Angelo had a magic reflect which I like never used. Welp, that makes things easy I guess.
Black Mage vs Fayt (SO3) - Fate likely gets the first strike and has 2HKO and may not be OHKO'd. Astral Armor also exists to block Magic type enemies 30% of the time (of which Wizard certainly is) and can create further complications.
Black Mage vs Marle (CT) - Dat MDef and Vigil Hats = um...
Black Mage vs Yuffie (FF7) - OHKOs with Flare.
Black Mage vs Mario (SMRPG) - OHKOs with Flare. I think.

3-5. Damage cannon but speed isn't amazing (worse if you take charge times into consideration) and the status rates are meh. Also kind of fragile.

Lawfer vs Fujin (FF8) - Fujin loses the initiative and gets one rounded by a Lawfer attack chain. GG
Lawfer vs Ray (FE6) - Lawfer's damage is probably too much.
Lawfer vs Articuno (PKMN) - Isn't the Crimson Spear fire elemental or something? Sounds like a disaster for Arti, though I haven't actually checked the numbers. Lawfer needs to OHKO though since Arti wins the speed duel and will Mind Reader into Sheer Cold as per Snowfire.
Lawfer vs Angelo (DQ8) - Depends on when you see the ID landing? It's 50%, for all that, I can see it happening at turn 3 versus turn 2. Think Lawfer has the edge in that case.
Lawfer vs Fayt (SO3) - Fate being faster seals this.
Lawfer vs Marle (CT) - Statuses him with something he can't block and is debilitating. Ouch.
Lawfer vs Yuffie (FF7) - Probably
Lawfer vs Mario (SMRPG) - Better in general. More durable, more damage over time and Mario has no tricks to win this.

5-3. Damage, and if you allow it, killer damage come as early as turn 2. Decently durable too! Too bad y'know, about being all physical and pretty much flat average.

Fei later.

Fei vs Fujin (FF8)
Fei vs Ray (FE6)
Fei vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fei vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fei vs Fayt (SO3)
Fei vs Marle (CT)
Fei vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fei vs Mario (SMRPG)
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Pyro

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Re: Proving grounds: M/H
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2016, 01:30:35 AM »
Black Mage vs Knight (FF1)
Black Mage vs Fujin (FF8)
Black Mage vs Articuno (PKMN): Not OHKOd?
Black Mage vs Angelo (DQ8): Gonna Bounce.
Black Mage vs Fayt (SO3)
Black Mage vs Rune (PS4): Black Mage hitting the wrong durability. Rune hitting the right one.
Black Mage vs Marle (CT)
Black Mage vs Yuffie (FF7)
Black Mage vs Mario (SMRPG)
Black Mage vs Dart (LoD)

Lawfer vs Knight (FF1): Everyone seems so sure he isn't OHKOd or anything.
Lawfer vs Fujin (FF8): PWS OHKO
Lawfer vs Articuno (PKMN): PWS turn 1 OHKO with Crimson Edge?
Lawfer vs Angelo (DQ8): 2-rounds.
Lawfer vs Fayt (SO3): Faster?
Lawfer vs Rune (PS4): PWS turn 1 OHKO.
Lawfer vs Marle (CT): PWS Turn 1 OHKO
Lawfer vs Yuffie (FF7): KOs first? Or does Yuffie 2HKO?
Lawfer vs Mario (SMRPG): I'm just guessing.
Lawfer vs Dart (LoD)

Fei vs Knight (FF1)
Fei vs Fujin (FF8)
Fei vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fei vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fei vs Fayt (SO3)
Fei vs Rune (PS4)
Fei vs Marle (CT)
Fei vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fei vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fei vs Dart (LoD)

Fuse vs Knight (FF1)
Fuse vs Fujin (FF8)
Fuse vs Kain (TAY)
Fuse vs Ray (FE6)
Fuse vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fuse vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fuse vs Fayt (SO3)
Fuse vs Rune (PS4)
Fuse vs Marle (CT)
Fuse vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fuse vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fuse vs Dart (LoD)

superaielman

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Re: Proving grounds: M/H
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2016, 01:38:01 AM »
Black Mage vs Knight (FF1)- Yeah sure, smash.
Black Mage vs Fujin (FF8)- Block status, blitz.
Black Mage vs Kain (TAY)- Jump limits the effectiveness of BM's big spells and Kain is faster.
Black Mage vs Articuno (PKMN)- Horrid slaughter, Articuno laughs at flare and 2HKOs with ease.
Black Mage vs Angelo (DQ8)- Bounce. Goodbye.
Black Mage vs Fayt (SO3)- Think Fayt's slightly faster on the draw, which is enough.
Black Mage vs Rune (PS4)- Go first, 2HKO with Legeon.
Black Mage vs Marle (CT)- Think she just runs Wizard out of MP.
Black Mage vs Yuffie (FF7)- Yeah, I think Yuffie misses the OHKO with the Conformer, though it does depend on average used.
Black Mage vs Mario (SMRPG)- Unsure.
Black Mage vs Dart (LoD)- Yeah the 2HKO works.

Fuse vs Knight (FF1)- Fuse runs the risk of running out of resources here, but I think he still manages.
Fuse vs Fujin (FF8)
Fuse vs Kain (TAY)- Think so? His status isn't blocked and Fuse has problems dealing with Blink. Kain's healing is awful but Fuse has problems making *any* damage stick.
Fuse vs Articuno (PKMN)- Articuno's status isn't good enough here.
Fuse vs Angelo (DQ8)- Fuse has resource problems.
Fuse vs Fayt (SO3)- Haste/heal, outlast.
Fuse vs Rune (PS4)- Rune... still can't effectively heal lock even with the Blood Chalice costing Fuse some stats. Yeah, feels right.
Fuse vs Marle (CT)- Should be able to outlast.
Fuse vs Yuffie (FF7)- Shouldn't be 2HKOed after Awakening.
Fuse vs Mario (SMRPG)- Outlasts.
Fuse vs Dart (LoD)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

DragonKnight Zero

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Re: Proving grounds: M/H
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2016, 07:51:40 AM »
Black Mage vs Fujin (FF8); HP to 1 won't stop MA Up Flare.
Black Mage vs Rune (PS4)  Thief Hat, Chameleon Robe, Magic Ring.  Immunes Rune's status tricks and still be speedy.  Still believe he will kill with direct damage first and penalizing the one with charge times works to tiebreak any hope of BM landing her spells first.
Black Mage vs Marle (CT): Good news.  Black Costume and N-Kai Armlet block Marle's important status tricks.  Still no hope of taking her out with direct damage so Wizard's only chance lies in landing Death through that M. Def.  This ... might actually work.  A Gold Hairpin allows 5 casts of Death and even with a Hasted Marle turning her into a pincushion, she might live long enough to get those casts off and only one need to hit.  Yeah, I'm shocked.  Edit: Marle damage better than I thought.  Sonic Arrow and Haste lets her triple or quad turn Black Mage.  Sooo, probably 3 Death casts.  Coinflippy but any other approach favors Marle so switching voe.
Black Mage vs Yuffie (FF7)' Flare


« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 09:02:15 AM by DragonKnight Zero »

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Re: Proving grounds: M/H
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2016, 09:45:56 PM »
Black Mage vs Knight (FF1) - lol
Black Mage vs Fujin (FF8) - sure
Black Mage vs Kain (TAY) - Wizard can just walk out of jumps, but Kain can just jump out of charged spells. The spells are finite, Kain has infinite jump.
Black Mage vs Ray (FE6) - Counter Magic seals it, imo.
Black Mage vs Articuno (PKMN) - too much Mdef/hp for Wizard to easily handle, I think.
Black Mage vs Angelo (DQ8) - bounce
Black Mage vs Fayt (SO3)
Black Mage vs Rune (PS4)
Black Mage vs Marle (CT) - wizard's mdef is bad, and if she's blocking status then she's not blocking ice.
Black Mage vs Yuffie (FF7) - yeah, wiz gets the flare OHKO
Black Mage vs Mario (SMRPG) - kneejerk
Black Mage vs Dart (LoD)

Lawfer vs Knight (FF1) - lawfer fails to kill even with a justice stream. Knight p.dur is a THING.
Lawfer vs Fujin (FF8)
Lawfer vs Kain (TAY) - I forget what all options kain has and too lazy to look it up
Lawfer vs Ray (FE6)
Lawfer vs Articuno (PKMN) - hmm...sure, Mind Reader -> sheer cold. Lawfer can't PWS turn 1 by himself.
Lawfer vs Angelo (DQ8) - angelo has nothing to prevent this
Lawfer vs Fayt (SO3) - faster, and they both 2HKO
Lawfer vs Rune (PS4) - negatis does it's job
Lawfer vs Marle (CT) - VP1 was good about having status blockers, iirc. And even resistance is enough, if she doesn't land it turn 1 she loses.
Lawfer vs Yuffie (FF7) - she can't stop this
Lawfer vs Mario (SMRPG) - he has nothing to prevent this
Lawfer vs Dart (LoD) - yeah, kneejerk.

brain shutting off, maybe fei and fuse later, maybe I won't bother. :V

Fei vs Knight (FF1)
Fei vs Fujin (FF8)
Fei vs Kain (TAY)
Fei vs Ray (FE6)
Fei vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fei vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fei vs Fayt (SO3)
Fei vs Rune (PS4)
Fei vs Marle (CT)
Fei vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fei vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fei vs Dart (LoD)

Fuse vs Knight (FF1)
Fuse vs Fujin (FF8)
Fuse vs Kain (TAY)
Fuse vs Ray (FE6)
Fuse vs Articuno (PKMN)
Fuse vs Angelo (DQ8)
Fuse vs Fayt (SO3)
Fuse vs Rune (PS4)
Fuse vs Marle (CT)
Fuse vs Yuffie (FF7)
Fuse vs Mario (SMRPG)
Fuse vs Dart (LoD)
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