Author Topic: Doubles Tournament: Round 3  (Read 913 times)

Cmdr_King

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Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« on: August 09, 2015, 06:59:00 PM »
Raquel Applegate and Arnaud G. Vasquez (Wild ARMs 4) vs Wren and Demi (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium)
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour and Lyon (Suikoden V)
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon) vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue)
Riou and Jowy (Suikoden II) vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 07:02:38 PM by Cmdr_King »
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Pyro

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2015, 07:33:49 PM »
Raquel Applegate and Arnaud G. Vasquez (Wild ARMs 4) vs Wren and Demi (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium): Arnaud Hypers Raquel and then has nothing else to contribute to the fight since the bots are immune to stat-downs? Wren and Demi put out enough MT damage to avoid putting Raquel into Red Zone territory. So she can KO someone but it won't be enough as she'd need to Dragon Edge. But that's admitting a lock. Can Arnaud's Reinforce help? Probably not. Thinking the bots have too much pressure with the MT offense, especially with Wren having Positron Bolt as a finisher. Having physical ITE damage for Arnaud is also nasty.
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour and Lyon (Suikoden V): They get off nukes first.
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon) vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue)
Riou and Jowy (Suikoden II) vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World): Seriously no one had a chance against these two Godlikes. No one. Maybe only one should have had a rune or something.

Random Consonant

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2015, 08:59:27 PM »
Raquel Applegate and Arnaud G. Vasquez (Wild ARMs 4) vs Wren and Demi (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium) - Yeah I dunno, but it feels like the WA4 duo has too much to work against here.  Posibolt even does magic damage so yeah.
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour and Lyon (Suikoden V) - mdef fail
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon) vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) - oh okay
Riou and Jowy (Suikoden II) vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) - uh sure
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 09:15:33 PM by Random Consonant »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2015, 12:55:57 AM »
Raquel Applegate and Arnaud G. Vasquez (Wild ARMs 4) vs Wren and Demi (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium) - Well, this -does- in some degree depend on how you see various WA4 factors interacting with PS4 mechanics. First, if you see Arnaud as being able to dodge Phononmezer, we start having a slight problem. Second, if you see WA4 debuffs towering over PS4 debuff immunity, the fight gets pretty annoying. HOWEVER, I think I at least see Phononmezer as bypassing Arnaud evade, it's not quite comprehensive enough for me. Which means Demi and Wren both get to finish their MT doom and then Raquel alone can't really twist the fight in her favor.
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour Falenas and Lyon (Suikoden V) - Dear lord, I think Lyon alone OHKOs both Robo and Ayla.
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon) vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) - Dark Sword. EBO Hiro even immunes Sleep for insult added to injury.
Riou and Jowy Atreides (Suikoden II) vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) - I really don't think so. Even if Umi goes first via speed twinking, Riou can heal anything Cthulhu can do while OHKOing someone at leisure, Jowy getting a turn means she -blows up- and yeah. I don't know if Jowy's locked equips have the darkness-halving hat among the stuff, but Riou at least can equip them, which also hampers Cthulhu's offense pretty badly.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 01:41:49 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2015, 02:28:13 AM »
Seems pretty straightforward this week.

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SnowFire

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2015, 02:47:44 AM »
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour and Lyon (Suikoden V)
Boom.
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon) vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue)
MT ID + some Jean status, unless Exeggcutor has something amazing it can do with first turn.
Riou and Jowy (Suikoden II) vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World)
I'll buy the hype, for all that...  oh wait that isn't Tir I'm silly.

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2015, 04:37:01 PM »
Raquel Applegate and Arnaud G. Vasquez (Wild ARMs 4) vs Wren and Demi (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium): Arnaud Hypers Raquel and then has nothing else to contribute to the fight since the bots are immune to stat-downs? Wren and Demi put out enough MT damage to avoid putting Raquel into Red Zone territory. So she can KO someone but it won't be enough as she'd need to Dragon Edge. But that's admitting a lock. Can Arnaud's Reinforce help? Probably not. Thinking the bots have too much pressure with the MT offense, especially with Wren having Positron Bolt as a finisher. Having physical ITE damage for Arnaud is also nasty.
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour and Lyon (Suikoden V): They get off nukes first.
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon) vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue)
Riou and Jowy (Suikoden II) vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World): Seriously no one had a chance against these two Godlikes. No one. Maybe only one should have had a rune or something.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2015, 08:14:13 PM »
Fight of the week is definitely Pokemon vs. Lunar 2. I actually think people who aren't Snow are voting the wrong way on this one, but it is pretty close!

First of all, the turn order: Exeggutor > Jean > Groudon > Hiro. Standard deviations make this pretty clear. I'm going to ignore doubleturns from here on; obviously they will only help Pokemon if you consider them.

Now, Exeggutor goes first and opens with 75% sleep on someone. Initially I figured stopping Hiro was more important, since he has MT, but I was wrong: Jean is the target, because getting Groudon at least one turn is so important. So Exeggutor uses sleep on Jean, Groudon goes next and has MT 2HKO to both (even with a 25% damage cut due to being MT, Eruption is pretty mean, doing 58% to average, which 2HKOs both Hiro and Jean soundly enough (Hiro is like 110% magic durability, Jean is worse).

Hiro, of course, uses Concussion Sword, trying to ID both of them. It's 50% against each, so there are four equally probable outcomes to this attack. Let's take a look at what happens in each case.

Both pokemon survive: Exeggutor finishes off Jean (thanks to sun, he has an instant 2HKO with Solarbeam as well), Groudon finishes off Hiro. Obvious, 100% victory.
Only Groudon survives: Jean has a 1/4 chance to wake up on her second turn sleeping, and a 1/2 chance of landing a fatal status on Groudon, winning the fight for her team. If this 1/8 chance does not kick in, Groudon gets the next turn and finishes the MT 2HKO. 87.5% chance of Pokemon victory.
Only Exeggutor survives: Exeggutor uses Solarbeam to finish off Hiro. Then, once again, Jean has a 1/8 chance to both wake up and land a fatal status on Exeggutor. If she does not, Exeggutor goes again and finishes her. Once again, 87.5% chance of Pokemon victory.
Both pokemon die: Team Lunar just won, 0% chance of Pokemon victory. (Duh.)

So, if that initial Sleep Powder lands, Pokemon has a 25%*100% + 25%*87.5% + 25%*87.5% + 25%*0% = 68.75% chance of winning.

If the initial sleep powder misses, then Team Pokemon is in a lot of trouble. They could still win, as Lunar isn't winning this with raw damage, so of course if Lunar goes on to have bad luck with their own status, Pokemon will steal the win back. However, it doesn't matter. Even if we assume that the first sleep powder missing means 100% chance of Lunar victory, that still leaves Pokemon with a 75%*68.75% = 51.6% chance of victory. The actual number is probably closer to 55%. It's a slight edge, but it's one they have.

Since both sides are relying on status to win here, I'm fine with siding with the team that wins over half the time. You could let various defences muck with status hit rates here, but given that Jean has bad magic defence and Concussion Sword is likely physical (and both pokemon have high physical defence) that seems unlikely to tilt things Lunar's way. It is close though!

Raquel Applegate and Arnaud G. Vasquez (Wild ARMs 4) vs Wren and Demi (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium): Phonon + Burst Rockets should kill Arnaud. The good news for Arnaud is that I do see his stat downs working just fine, here: his work on everything in WA4, while loads of things immune PS4's stat downs, so I take that as meaning PS4's stat downs suck. Unfortunately for him I do see the WA4 techs as ITE, so he dies to the MT physical blitz, and Raquel isn't soloing even after Arnaud lands Slow Down on one of them.
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour and Lyon (Suikoden V): Traditionally the best way to win Heavy 2v2 is to have loads of fast MT damage. Freyjadour isn't that fast, but uh Lyon may well just OHKO here anyway, and since Freyja is faster than Robo it doesn't matter regardless.
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon) vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue): See above.
Riou and Jowy (Suikoden II) vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World): Remember what I said about fast MT damage? Okay, Riou's isn't MT, it's just "kill one opponent not immune to holy". Which when Jowy often OHKOs people anyway...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 08:15:50 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2015, 09:09:47 PM »
Raquel Applegate and Arnaud G. Vasquez (Wild ARMs 4) vs Wren and Demi (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium)
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour and Lyon (Suikoden V)
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon) vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue)
Riou and Jowy (Suikoden II) vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World)
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SnowFire

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2015, 12:21:04 AM »
Elf: Interesting analysis!  Checking, though, this is probably a speed interps thing, but Hiro seems ever-so-slightly faster than Gen 4 Groudon, and definitely faster than Gen3 Groudon, at least by "naive" speeds (1.15 Hiro, 1.14 or 1.10 for Groudon).    This actually doesn't hurt the Pokes odds that badly, Sleep Powder Hiro instead...  which is arguably the right thing to do anyway...  and Jean has real problems if her status doesn't connect, and it's possible for Jean status to connect but Hiro to not wake up and for some kind of decisive turn from the other side to happen anyway.  Closer than I thought, for sure, still pretty much a coinflip.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2015, 12:37:31 AM »
Yeah, I'm using standard deviations as always. Hiro is +0.59, while Groudon is +0.75 in Gen 3... though yeah, only +0.56 in gen 4 apparently. Although it should be noted that Groudon is, within Gen 4, only available in Soul Silver, which as a remake of Gen 2 probably has a lower speed average than the gen 4 total, which would see Groudon as faster. And yes this sort of nickel-and-diming is something probably not worth caring about, beyond noting that you could see either as faster.

When I actually ran with the odds things seemed worse off if Jean were given a turn (because if she statuses out Groudon immediately, then suddenly Exeggutor needs four turns of damage to close the fight, whereas if Groudon gets a turn much of the damage is done immediately). But it's possible that it's not that much worse such that the match might still be theirs on average. I'm not really sure, and not really interested in trying to theorycraft the calculations myself. But I am confident that if Groudon is seen as faster than Hiro, that Pokemon should win on average. The match rapidly enters coinflip territory if you're not sold on that assessment, though.

Also it's worth noting that Pokemon get less instantly wrecked by Riou and Jowy next round! But I'll math that out if it happens...

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Cmdr_King

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Re: Doubles Tournament: Round 3
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2015, 08:06:05 PM »
Raquel Applegate and Arnaud G. Vasquez (Wild ARMs 4) vs Wren and Demi (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium)- iiiiiii
Robo and Ayla (Chrono Trigger) vs Freyjadour and Lyon (Suikoden V)- iiiiiiii
Groudon and Exeggcutor (Pokémon)- iii vs Hiro and Jean (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue)- iii (CK Tie-break)
Riou and Jowy (Suikoden II)- iiiiiiii vs Cthulhu and Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World)
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