Division Rankings rambling.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm curious about the math behind 'support credit', I guess?

[Dark Holy Elf]

The basic concept is that boss HP is often scaled by how many shots of average damage they need to be defeated. The methods vary, but one of the simplest is "a boss who takes 10 hits to die = 1PCHP" (not the one either I or Dhyer use, I believe, but a good illustration). If you apply this to a game like FFT you'll notice most bosses end up very fragile indeed. Average damage in-game is hard to pin down, but the DL stat topic is about ~180 for endgame and the in-game version is almost certainly higher due to PC setups being stronger. If we say for illustration's sake that it's 250 then a boss would need 2500 HP to a seen as PCHP. FFT bosses outside Altima don't even come close to this.

However, the main argument against "SRPG bosses die almost instantly" is that they're often decent fights due to having lots of support you need to cut through, giving them more time to show their stuff in-game. So "support credit" means buffing a boss's HP in the DL out of respect for their support. SRPGs are a common reason to do this, but it can occur in non-SRPGs as well (e.g. WA3's team fights). Not everyone gives support credit at all, and there's no agreed on convention of how to do it (I imagine most people probably just use kneejerks), so if you want Dhyer's specifics you'll have to ask him.

[Random Consonant]

Well PCHP for Altima's HP total would need an average of ~360 damage under standard interps (would need to be higher for mine and higher still for elfboy's) which seems to me like it'd require a high level of holisitc disrepect but not to an -especially- unreasonable degree, I'd think?  I don't see her as quite that low myself, but honestly I may be more surprised at Kletian being seen as 0.25 PCHP then...

[Dhyerwolf]

I'm a bit harder on Altima because high HP in FFT often means a chance for your damage to spike with mage classes.

[Pyro]

Freelancer: Light. The damage is too bad for anything else.

Wizard: Heavy (Edit: Yeah Godlike is a better place for initiative OHKO).. Initiative OHKO, but poor durability.

Charioteer: Heavy/Godlike? Such flexibility with speed/damage/durability

Fencer: Heavy. The damage isn't fantastic but the durability will be good enough to wall some enemy damage.

Bishop: Light. Terrible damage...  but at least the Mdef is ridiculously amazing!

Astrologian: Heavy in my estimation of the durability post buffing.

Catmancer: Heavy or Godlike depending on whether I allow Catnips or not.

Thief: Heavy/Godlike. The ridiculous TB speed ITD overkill is hard to argue with unless a boss is involved.

Red Mage: Heavy/Godlike due to the damage?

Swordmaster: Light. Nothing to see here.

Summoner: Middle? The durability and speed combo is terrible but healing amd damage.

Hawkeye? Middle but a good one? Might one rpund but if not is in a bad spot.

Patissier: term. I guess I allow the status so to Heavy/Godlike he goes.

White Mage: Middle? The Holy barrage isn't bad but there isn't anything else.

Merchant: Heavy. Fast ITD overkillish damage!

Black Mage. Heavy. Solid ITD overkill blitz.

Knight: Heavy/Godlike with the truly insane def/mdef making it almost unkillable.

Exorcist: Godlike? Auto Undo and Erradicate is a lot to deal with. Really need to one round or status to win, and that isn't that easy for most below Godlike.

Performer: Light. Better than before but still not great at damage even with the buffed up durability.

Pirate: Heavy? The durability after debuffing enemy attack is fantastic. And then Adrenaline exists too.

Valkyrie: Light. The lack of damage burns.

Monk: Heavy? Great ITD and physical one rounding but things faster than him will make him regret existing with that durability.

Time Mage: Heavy/Godlike. Amazing one-rounding with magic, but not fast and not durable.

Dark Knight: Godlike? Most likely to lay down a lot of damage before going down. 2x PCHP or more.

Guardian: Middle/Heavy? The durability is great but there isn't a ton of damage to go with it.

Kaiser: Godlike. Without status or an OHKO the foe is going to eat the Blinding Light blitz and that can then be followed up with ANOTHER blitz and that won't be good.

Templar:  Heavy. The durability is fantastic, and the offense is likely to do the job.

Yokai: Godlike. The elemental damage is likely to KO an enemy after Yokai makes them weak to it. This has the added benefit of strippimg resistances. Good stats otherwise and a few physical options.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Regarding Wizard, I would be inclined to say that initiative OHKO does not belong in Heavy ever. I'd say this even if the durability were atrocious instead of merely below average.

[Pyro]

Dragon Quest 8 DS:

Guv: Godlike. The initiative monster summoning (twice!) is great. Beyond that he has tons of fullhealing and some options like evade, Spiked Armor, Tension, and Mirror Armor/Shield.

Yangus: Light. His most hyped thing was always the 1/8th (1/16th in practice?) Instant Death. Without it he has... sub-par everything but HP.

Jessica: Heavy. Overly reliant on fire damage, and not super-fast or having a real answer to anyone with fire resistance/immunity unless Bounce walls them, and even those vulnerable can just 2HKO her if faster and not OHKO'd. The 70% sleep may be what she wants over Caduceus and MP+100 (settling for MP+50). Really hates Tension making Magic Burst an average-component.

Angelo: Heavy. Decent speed and durability. Options aplenty including accurate matchwinning (basically) status, magic reflection, some evade, Spiked Armor, more fullhealing than you can shake a stick at, and buffing.

Red: High Heavy/Godlike? She's solid enough on durability where she isn't at unusual risk of OHKOs. Beyond that she has tons of fullhealing, 2HKO damage (if you allow her to pay the gold), and some status. Accelerate just puts on a crown on her speed while buffing her evasion too. The speed and fullhealing along with damage are really good, and Fuddle is a great way to screw over PCs.

Morrie: Not as good as one might hope. Slowish, not too durable, and takes 3 turns to kill. He busts healers something fierce, but there is just something missing there. High Light/Low Middle? Seems like he'd lose to an average physical slugger.

[Dhyerwolf]

Crono- 2HKOed by 64% Phys or 42% Mag, 140% Speed but hates healers and Lightning res (although actually guess he doesn't so much since Confuse isn't a big damage drop). You'll want to 2HKO him or spoil him (which is not hard in fairness). 3.6
-->DL wise: Should actually lose to Justin (Justin's ID string hits on turn 2 but Crono doesn't have the speed to double) and Neifirst (obviously). Flip side, he now beats Rei to me.

Ayla- 1.41 Pdur, 0.7 Mdur, 112% Speed, 53% Damage (Usable 4 Times), but it's not ITE. Magical backup...is a little questionable to (probably see it as a 75% hit rate; Surround target is not good in a game where you can't move). Borderline H/M. 3.85
-->DL wise: Loses to Cliff (goodbye MP. It's still close since that locks Cliff into lower, slower damage and he's hitting the wrong defense, but his HP keeps him alive)
Kika is razor thin (Ayla barely manages to 2HKO but misses one attack, but Kika barely fails to 2HKO), but Ayla still wins.

Frog- 2HKOed by 60% Phys or 45% Mag, Very low 4HKO (or sad 8HKOish magic damage)+the chance of a low HP limit move, but lots of healing. Doesn't like consistent 2HKOs. 3.3
-->DL wise: Should lose to Tellah (I think)

Lucca- The good: manages to 2HKO with 52% damage. Decent option to get 3 MPdur. the bad: 87% Speed, 67% Pdur, Reliant on Fire, No other real tricks beyond damage. Magespoiler. 2.75.
-->DL wise: Certainly loses to Cray, Rand and Rena.
Eileen becomes close (Physical 4HKOs Lucca, Lucca 3HKOs Eileen, but Eileen can use Copper Flesh to engineer a double- especially since Sleep is turn 2 to me). Zoah is slightly faster on turn 2 and Lucca barely misses 2HKOing him anyways. Tengaar is likely the only win I would agree with now.

Marle- 2HKOed by 30% Phys or 80% Mag. 82% Speed, but can increase that to 145% for 14 turns. Anemic damage (7HKO with best, 9HKO with strategy that doesn't burn MP). Stop is turn 3 to me, but doesn't stack (in fact, semi-protects enemies when it wears off making it that they will get a turn). Really doesn't like other healers.

Against an average speed PC that 2HKOs her:
E, M- Haste, M-Heal, E, M- Heal, E, M-Heal, M-Attack, E, M-Heal, E, M-Heal, E, M-Attack, M-Attack (Stop kicks in; Buys Marle at least 5 turns), Marle Magic x 5->This is sufficient to kill average

Looking at this, she can at least deal with average speed 2HKOs. She's not super hard to OHKO physically, and it does seem like Ice/Water res or evade does mess with this. 3.35
-->DL wise: Should lose to Lilka. Titania is arguable. Adray is likely also a loss due to spells that are so generally so bad DLwise (Healing and Reflection) that I didn't even bother to list them for Adray!
Should have beaten Alma though since Alma faceplants against healing quite hard.

Robo- 1.5 Pdur, 0.7 Mdur, 88% Speed, 87% Damage...if he goes first, otherwise around average physical damage or slightly below average magic damage, 40% Healing. Against physicallers who rely on MP (in Middle), can often outheal. 3.3
-->In the DL: Well, I have less respect for Valvalis evading tech physicals now (and uh...she needs it since her first turn is spent spinning, meaning that Robo has a clean shot). Might lose to Elly and Zidane since I only take half of status res now.
Surprisingly beats Ayame (Shock manages to 2HKO her thanks to lackluster HP, Mdef and Magic res)

Dalton- 83% PC HP, sloooooow. Effectively 2HKOs (with his finisher, although slightly above average Mdur will be push it to a 3HKO effectively). Just...

If he opens with evade first, he'll be hit on the 5th attack (as well as the first attack), so most healers are going to be fine, as is ITE. 3.4
-->In the DL: Loses to Sharon. Bowman is certainly a close match that comes down to interps.

Flea- Calling him around 105% speed. 2 PC HP, cuts damage 20%, but 6HKOs. The status is more of a nuisance than anything else. Sleep and Confusion are both cancelled by damage…although Confusion at least is not cancelled by Poison. Go 3% damage that kicks in once every couple of turns. I guess if you see a Confusion lock and never using any damage at all as a valid strategy then Flea is quite good (hi faster Edgar variant with over double the durability and status immunity), but there’s no way I’m allowing that. 3.2 since the status may as well just not exist, but really just a bad rank since full, true AI = high Heavy off fatal 100% Confusion.
-->In the DL: Loses to Ox

Magus- Great HP (2.75 PC HP), laughs at physicals unless you are Lenneth (although I would probably see “legendary” weapons ignoring this), throws wrenches in several elements as well (and he really wants to be seen to have AI control over it, or else he’s still going to lose to the Rubicants, barring luck). If he fails to spoil (and he often will in Godlike), he’s going to bite it. 4.6 without AI control of Barrier, 4.65 with it. Kind of lean towards the with it only because it’s a balance to the concept of that there are elements that can actually hit him in the DL

(PC Magus has turn 2- barely ID off decent speed and spoils magic. Borderline H/M)
-->In the DL: These all make sense!

Slash- Uh, well that speed is something (like 75%). However, 2.4 PC HP in form 2, halves elements, can gets 40% damage at 1.6 PC HP. Despite not having anywhere near 14 speed, way too much for Light. Speed keeps him in Middle, but even then doesn’t feel that bad (just doesn’t like healers much). 3.5
-->In the DL: May actually beat Ronfar (that’s a horribly painful match, but Ronfar takes over 50 basic attacks to kill Slash. Way to make those 1/8 Counters relevant Ronfar), maybe Seifer (because the great question mark that is Seifer)

Zeal- Gut check that 14 Speed is probably around 110% (in practice due to input delay), but skips the first turn. Average elemental damage, 1.6 PC HP. Certainly a good Heavy, but the limits have some flaws (at least, for those who aren’t finished off by MP killing and can line up turns that they can finish off Zeal before the hands).  4.35
-->In the DL: Probably loses to Jowy (he 2HKOs, but can backload to avoid the limit with ST!), Kharg, Zera (oops so much for that Heavy championship)

Lavos- Central Bit has like just under 0.8 PC HP and skips its first turn. Then the Core drops it’s defenses and spends 3 turns to revive. Skipping that first turn is pretty fatal in Godlike and even for some Heavies (and some will just get their 2nd turn before Central Bit’s first turn even if they don't OHKO). And if they resist Lightning, one Central Bit turn + other part turns likely won’t even kill. 4
-->In the DL: Certainly loses to Riou, Johnny, Claude without thought, likely many of the other matches as well.

[Dhyerwolf]

FF7
So 50% starting limit bar and I take the PC kill point based on the highest average (13678)

Cloud- So the Paralysis is still turn 1 to me (like barely- 50.4%), and it's pretty hard to avoid. Feels like a high Middle based on depending on one status that he can't immediately access. 3.55
DL wise: Loses to Bruiser (but I think that was always true)

Aeris- Hmm, what damage to do I hold her too. Maybe I see her 5HKOing, meaning that either Stop or invincible limits give her the time to kill average. 2.8
DL Wise: Ironically may beat Palmer, who is susceptible to Stop and it kills his evasion (although she still may not have the damage with his durability), probably Reis. Virginia is a stall match and probably Miranda and Tempest (the limit strat works)

Barret- Some mage spoiling, and his L3 is at least decently accessible. Feels like close to Cloud in practice (is what I wrote before I realized Barret's ID was turn 3) (less useful L1, but better options otherwise). 3.35

Cait Sith- His status is turn 2 to me (34% for Toad, 40% for Mini), but with his ability to heal for a while it's still viable. However, a constant 2HKO will actually sink him. 3.85

Cid- Average who gets a nasty limit if he takes 63% damage. 3.4

Red- 3.75. Borderline. Average base damage, nasty damage starts at 50% instead of 60%, Lunatic High could also see some use, and unlike Cid/Cloud might get in an extra attack against average speed to help push him over the line.
DL Wise: Beats Toadstool, Arnaud (I think? Seems like Red should okay getting around that evasion with limit and Arnaud is not great at avoiding them)

Tifa- Fast 3HKO. 3.3
DL Wise: Loses to Fred, beats Spar (season 2 for you)

Vincent- Decent enough Light. 2.8

Yuffie- Red trading 10% HP for a healing limit and no magic back up if needed. Think it's a losing trade. 3.65
DL Wise: Not sure she beats Sara, if I don't allow status protection, she doesn't beat Fina and Noa (obviously)

Rufus- I didn't even get notes, but better than the Turks probably!

Palmer- The third best!? ranked FF 7 boss. A 4HKO! Some evade! Above PC HP. 2.75

Jenova- So, probably go off Jenova Life (Death has an argument too, but I'd be a little restrictive on the multi acting which likely won't be kicking in until turn 2 for me, so Death is 4HKOing). Horrible HP (I'm a little nice, but that still means like 0.65 PC HP), great Mdef, 2HKO and fast on the draw. 3.55
-->Nina 1 takes her out pretty easily, as does Emilia (faster 2HKO)

Rude- 2
-->Has DL wins, shouldn't

Reno- If allowed the Gelnika form...he can beat some Lights who are slower (or wait, even non Lights!) or have fail damage. 2.5
-->Has DL wins, shouldn't

Elena- 1.

Hojo- Form 1 gets OHKOed by everything, form 2 has 0.5 PC HP to unleash Sleep->Silence, for 3 has 0.55 PC HP to slowly wear enemies down. Uh...2.6.

Sephiroth- Ah, the big question. Is Sephiroth still Godlike considering that he 3HKOs 2HKOs where the first attack is off 51% accuracy? My gut reaction is yes, just barely. He has a fair amount of PC killing with Paralysis and Frog/Mini, spoils SR physicals, has Wall to pump up the durability. However, he mightily struggles against most Godlike bosses who aren't spoiled (and that's not many). Could honestly be a Heavy
4.60
-->Does beat Ness, Yuna! (He's slightly faster turn 1), Wakka (lol), Lucia, Lambda (I guess?), Magus, Celes
-->Could still beat maybe: Melfice, Albedo
-->Doesn't beat Ryu 3, Zio, Orlandu, Miguel (unless you see Miguel as SR physical), Empyrea (would be SR physical, but she flies and such)
-->May still should have beaten and lost to: Kuja

[Dhyerwolf]

FF 13

So, I do use the third damage average (Vanille/Hope in Ravager, but with a 30% damage boost from Commando side effects)

Lightning- 45% Phys Damage, 34% Magic Damage, 40% Healing, Can trade 20% of damage for 20% speed. The 3.45 I gave her initially is a generous (was probably going for 6 ATB bars, so healing is a little worse and I didn't allow Commando boost for Hope/Vanille). 3.3

Sazh- 34% Phys Damage, 27% Mag (Boostable to 47%/38%), 107% HP, Can Throw out 33% Phys/Mag Cut pretty quickly as well. Haste likely only being 127% effect hurts, as does 5 bars (although thinking on it...he probably only ever waits for the first 2 bars to throw out a buff). I think he's a Middle, but not much of one. 3.15. I intially gave him a 3.65...

Snow- 125% HP, 47% Phys Damage, 27% ITD/ITE, 31% Magic (Feral Pride), Questionable Defensive Strat (0.36 damage taken while recovering 20% HP, but makes him slow. If it's 50% speed, that may kill it's use since it's just a stall strategy). Assuming the Defensive strat doesn't really play out, 3.4. Better HP is worth more than Lightning's healing (plus the ITD/ITE option could have some theoretical use). Originally gave him a 3.85 based on the defensive strat

Hope- 73% HP, 31% Magic Damage, 24% ITD/ITE Magic, Basically Full Healing all the time + Can boost damage 40%, boost speed a little and add Protect/Shell (which just put him around PC HP level durability though). 3.7. Don't think it's enough for Heavy with that base HP, but really borderline and could be underrating. Originally gave him a 3.45, but notable improvement

Vanille- Turn 2 Fog, Turn 3 Pain, Can Quadruple (4.44x) her best damage after turn 1, decent healing, 28% Magic (Which she can quadruple coming into turn 2), 20% ITD/ITE damage. While the status isn't super great from the debilitation side, it does build up to massive damage. 3.5. Originally 3.85. Status was better in original rating

Fang- 56% Physical Damage, Turn 2 Fog, Turn 3 Pain, Turn 1 Daze. Low Heavy works. 3.95. Originally 4.15 (more turn 1 status)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Fire Emblem: Three Houses! Order here is kinda random, starting with lords/good duellers and then working through characters largely by weapon type.

Edelgard has great offence, quads the below average for ORKO damage and doubles average with Silver... but what really sets her above the pack is Raging Storm which basically forces you to decide how much you let legendary weapons be spammed. I lean towards only allowing one use of this per fight, but even with that she still kills average as soon as she gets a turn. Not having uber evade or raw durability means she's far from perfect, but still Heavy/Godllike.

Dimitri is just a big ol' pile of stats. Quads average for just shy of ORKO, has great evade (just at full HP, but that's enough), yon standard Really Good Fire Emblem dueller. Probably belongs in Heavy but he's really scary there if so.

Claude has similar offence to Dimitri, though doesn't have the same Def and relying on Alert Stance for bonus evade isn't as good as Dimitri's personal. On the other hand he has two nasty tricks Dimitri doesn't: Encloser to ruin melee opponents, and Fallen Star to grant him one turn of perfect evade. Also a really scary Heavy.

By comparison Byleth doesn't stand out nearly as much. There's a Nosferatu gimmick build but it's just so undamaging, and the offence is 3RKO unless s/he fights someone slow enough to be doubled by Brave. Still, regen on someone with no problem stats could be worse. Good Middle.

Besides the lords, the best tier of duellers includes Ferdinand, Petra, Felix, and Catherine. Standard FE goodness. All easily double average and have good damage, and evade on top of that. Petra is probably best due to having high damage and Alert Stance. Catherine needs Thunderbrand to reach that offence but isn't too far behind using Brave, while Felix has lower durability and base damage but is even faster and has a regen option for what that's worth. Ferdinand has extra evade at full HP. Heavy one and all.

Ingrid has terrible damage but doubles everything with it, so not so bad in practice! And she has loads of evade and good MDef. Her lance-using buddy Sylvain has a game-plan of 2RKOing your face with Swift Strikes while having only averagish speed but solid def. Seteth has less damage than Sylvain but plays a similar game, but Alert Stance is neat, as is Spear of Assal regen as an option. All three go to Middle, though Ingrid at least seems like a scary one.

Hilda will have you know it's hard to argue with an axe to the face, low 2RKO with Brave Axe with some options to double the slow, and Apocalyptic Flame does only slightly lower damage but the str debuff may let her take an extra hit from physicals, and she's already quite physically tanky. Good Middle. Cyril is faster so he can double average with Silver, but just misses a 2RKO even so due to lower strength; the slow fear him though, and he has Alert Stance. Good Middle which is more than he deserves. Ashe is a worse Hilda in every way: damage, durability, AS, you name it. Probably still swings Low Middle.

The War Masters offer good damage but bad speed. Dedue is the best of them, tieing Edelgard for game-best damage (and at low HP Vengeance pushes him even further) but doing so gets him doubled by average, unfortunately the above average will double him regardless, so Middle. His excellent pdur softens that nicely but magic makes him explode. Raphael is a bit slower so average always doubles him, he's still durable but not as much, Light/Middle. Caspar and Alois both have a bit less damage and considerably less defence but a fair bit more speed, unfortunately their only 2RKO damage still gets them doubled by average, Low Middle.

The archers... Bernadetta just has bad durability and damage both, but she's saved somewhat by Encloser, which once again ruins melee fighters. Vengeance is a cute trick as well I guess. Light/Middle area. Leonie barely quads average with a Brave Bow, which is a low 2RKO, and if she misses that double she has Point-Blank Volley, and unlike Bernie her durability is fine. Middle probably. Shamir is trash, she can Hunter's Volley for low 3HKO off her game-worst durability, Light. And Ignatz has gone swordmaster instead of Archer; he's got Ingrid's damage but his quads are far from ironclad (and if he misses that, the offence is terrible) and the evade is far more fair, but he brings his archery to bear with his 144% silence combat art, so is Middle.

Everything doubles Gilbert. The pdur still wins way too many fights in Light though, so probably Low Middle for the character oft considered the worst in the game. Dies to most Light mages.

Mages are in a rough position generally. The star is Magical Swordgirl Lysithea; dark magic may be DL trash but doubling average with a Levin Sword is certainly legit. Too bad her defence is so bad, but she still makes Middle. Opera stars Dorothea and Manuela try to copy her gameplan, but Dorothea has only averagish speed while Manuela has substantially worse damage. Both have regen at least so are very scary Lights at minimum. Hubert tries to play this game with a magical lance instead, but it gets him doubled by average, oops. Dark magic still sucks, 0.67 pdur sucks, decent Light is all he amounts to.

Linhardt can uh... go 5HKO damage with Fire, or use anything else and get doubled by average, regen and Nosferatu can help but only against mages or those with truly bad damage. Mercedes is a bit better on damage/speed at least, but has the same core problems. Annette has considerable more oomph with her legendary magical axe, but otherwise has all of Linhardt's problems, including average doubling her as soon as she uses anything but her weakest tome. Lorenz is more durable than the other nerds but still has their core problems. Lights all around.

Marianne is different enough to be notable. Her Nosferatu is not only a bit more damaging, but she also doesn't get doubled by average with it. The fast double her... flipside she can use it to double the slow, with Darting Blow. Add that on to her regen and she's a pest to kill unless her opponent is speedy. She can also double average with her legendary weapon but the damage isn't anything special. Probably still a Light, but she's actually a good one, maybe a borderliner even.

Flayn is the comedy option. Between Nosferatu, Renewal, and Caduceus, she can regenerate ~70% of her HP every turn! She's also doubled by average and has game-worst pdur, so anyone with 4HKO physicals beats her anyway. Mages explode at least? Too bad they're rare in her division, bad Light. Might be the worst dueller, but that honour probably goes to...

Hanneman is what you get when you take the Linhardt stat build, and give him -9 AS from average with his lightest spell. Oh and he doesn't get Nosferatu or Renewal. He DOES get 100% silence off of... a 22HKO damage combat art. Hope you allow him two Silver Bows! (I do.) But that's still only useful against people who can do literally nothing while silenced. Light/Puny borderline.

[Dhyerwolf]

Started this months ago, but had a time crunch then, forgot and didn't finish until now. Unfortunately, in the interim, it appears the DL records links no longer works so can't comment for Edge/Edward/Kain/Twins

FF4
Cecil- Slightly below average damage, decent HP and defense. Tanks against Holy defense badly and he's 88% speed. He's a good Light, but he is a Light. 2.8
in the DL: Probably should have lost every match without thinking
vs TAY: TAY is almost a division jump! And yet, their in game usefulness is completely flipped

Cid- 150% HP, ~75% Speed, ~28% Damage (Thunder at that), but bad Pdef to me (which offsets the HP). Spoils the big 3 elements. 2.45 or something
vs TAY: TAY has worse HP and speed, but much better Pdur, almost 50% more damage and getting NE damage doesn't mean as big a damage drop. TAY has the edge

Edge: 94% HP, 142% Speed, Half-Average Damage + Turn 2 Sleep or OPB ITD average damage. Foils evadable damage. 3.9. Feels like slips into Low Heavy (effective 4HKO off 142% speed plus if enemy can be hit by sleep they are losing a turn). Really wants to draw evadable physicallers. Obviously a lot better with the 100% Sleep
vs TAY: TAY form is a better for me (Better physical damage, better Fuma damage, lower kill point = 2HKO off that speed), plus better HP. Status option is worse (not attached to damage, although Paralysis >>>>>> Sleep).

Edward: 55!% HP! (although 82% Pdur for me) 208% Speed! 17% HP and it's elemental! Then there is the sleep/confuse strategy.

So, Edward's Confuse/Sleep strategy is another great of example of why factoring in enemies that status fails against makes sense. Edward running 150% Speed, 100% Sleep Lock is not something that should be taken seriously, but it is what he should have with standard DL views.

I got him to solo a Gold Dragon with this strategy (thank god for Auto Battle)! It likely took several hundred turns (he does 1 damage except crits), but it did work!

Anyways, with my views, the Confuse strategy isn't worthless. Edward is likely to tie up an enemy more often than not, and it's often going to be more effective damage for an enemy to hit him or herself. Sleep is probably worthless though. Uh....2.85? Definitely a strategy I'd need to think about more, so it's too bad I don't have the DL matches for look over. Taking the Sleep/Confuse at 100% though makes Edward a solid enough Heavy.
vs TAY: Lol

Kain: 120% HP, ~158% Pdur (and a lot better to others; 220% PDur at base) Resists the big 3, 109% Speed, about 17% damage. 2.75. A Light, but can defensively spoil and Blood Spear can ruin bad healers. Even better taking the 220% PDur.
vs TAY: Lol

Palom: 70% HP, although ~75% durability to me, 89% speed. 83% Damage, which is often to grab a few OHKOs and fatal stop. 3.5. Loads better than Rydia.
vs TAY: I gave TAY A 3.25. TAY durability is similar, but TAY is slower and the speed hit on Flare hurts.

Porom: 64% HP (although good defense to me), 66% Damage, 89% Speed, Turn 1 Confuse/Berserk + The Good old Reflect/Image combo.  Has a good number of tricks to handle mages (And she's generally not get OHKOed); fighters are dicier although even a faster fighter that 2HKOs either needs Holy resistance, healing or ITE (the last which could be foiled with Berserk if its a tech) or Image will do the trick. 3.55.
in the DL:
vs TAY: Gave TAY a 3.7. 4a has better speed, worse damage and overall similar durability. I probably overrated TAY a little as the forms feel pretty similar in effect to a degree.

Rosa- 90% HP, 75% Damage (but that goes off at around 50% speed!), ~75% speed, a few turn 1 statuses that go off at worse speed and nasty 0 CT defensive tricks. Bad defense at base. 3.9. Low Heavy. Nasty if she gets going, but gives you a lot of chance to stop her.
in the DL: Loses to Liete I'd think, certainly loses that famous Elc match (although Elc having ITE ruins a defensive strategy there which makes things clear). G2 Elena may be a loss (FF 4 Sleep does reset her ATB, so she'll keep losing to it potentially), Dehaui (she gets gradual petrify not petrify and there are equips that get both, so there's definitely a distinction)
vs TAY: Well, I gave TAY a 3.75, but I was also a little unsure how it played out. TAY likely takes out Dehaui, but I think TAY having shorter reflect is a big loss. However, the damage is a lot better and TAY could be a 3.9. Probably similar overall

Rydia: 61% HP + bad defense! (Not as bad to me, but for everyone else she'll be near 40% PDur). Also she's slow, doesn't OHKO, and while she does have good Stop, that makes her even slower. On top of that, Sylph's efficiency went way down since it tanks against MDef in game hard. 3.3 to me, but with the base defense average she's a good Light . Even allowing half-status resistance hurts her since she only has 1 turn status to me.
in the DL: Still beats Ryudo. Barely under the base defense formulation (and doesn't beat him if Black Belt is allowed) as he does like 99% of her HP with SDS. Loses to Rapp under non row defenses due to being OHKOed (let alone if you allow the ID, which in 4a she doesn't have legal protection against). Loses to S3 Luc.
vs TAY: Prefers TAY despite the CT increase. Quicker time to kill and the Pdur doesn't burn so badly.

Yang- Yikes. 167% HP, 208% Speed, Sleep on attack, but just 22% HP damage (I guess that's similar to average damage and speed as a combo). Good defense at base, but not by my scaling. Sleep is also every other turn to me, but given that HP, that will still keep a good number of people somewhat sleep locked. 3.6. With the view of Sleep being 100% and good base defense (where his PDur is around 2.5x normal), that's more like a 4.3 though.
in the DL: Should have crushed Shinjiro and Peppita, although welcome to O/A split
vs TAY: Lol

[superaielman]

Octopath! I would not rank any of the bosses; they're either plotless or massively swingy based on what level you do the chapter or both.

Equips I'm not sure on what I allow; I definitely don't allow Allure/Guide/Hired Help. Definitely will revise this once I figure out precisely where I see average damage.

Ophilia- 2.75. Her struggles with a bad slugger like Miakis show her issues; she can only heal six times before running out of juice and is slow. She's also hopeless against light defense. Magic reflect is useful against mages at least and she does have damage once she's fully boosted. 

Cyrus- 3.05. The regen helps keep him afloat till his third turn and he's harder to elementally wall than Ophilia. He really doesn't care for mages though and Rip*100000 if he runs against people who resist all of his elements.

Tressa- 3.6. One trick pony but a good one; she has decent stats to back it up and a decent limit thanks to her divine skill.

Olberic- 3.75. He's hard to slug down and has a brutal turn three, but status is an issue. Think it keeps him on the M side of the border.

Primrose- 2.5. Whoof. I suppose Confuse from her attack has some use but she isn't winning on damage much and has no recourse against any type of status. She can sort of work around limits with Peacock strut at least.

Alfyn- 3.9. He's got a funky DL build. Status resistance and immunity after turn one is nice, the durability and resources are wonderful as well. He's slow and really wishes he had a better limit option, but he still can hang in Heavy.

Therion- 3.7. I find him less impressive than Alfyn or Olberic in practice; the drain's good but not enough in Heavy. Unlike Alfyn he can't resist status, and he doesn't have Olberic's tanking. (Olberic kills faster on turn three which negates the speed advantage).  He definitely seems like he belongs in Middle.

H'aanit- 3.1. Another borderliner. Leghold+one turn of damage and then limit are just enough to keep her out of light.

[Dhyerwolf]

Notes: I probably don't respect the ITE concept of most of the PCs moves since you really have to specifically hunt for an enemy in game that has any MBlock.

Damage average ignores Gogo (except for Gogo)

Terra- About 1.25 Pdurability (can boost the Pdur up to about 1.5), 22% Evade (Can be boosted up around 32%), 78% Fire Magic, 56% Physical and a lot of healing/draining. Now the damage does come off a little slow on turn 1, but I don't think she has enough damage to really matter turn 1 a lot of the time anyways. Really hates the loss of the skillset. Break and non spell damage options really helped, but I still think she can play in Low Godlike. Back up physical + draining + the durability helps. 4.55
>>In the DL:  Should lose to Lenneth, Rika, Ness (fails to 2HKO), probably Albedo (Fire res), maybe Luther. Should still be fine against Loki, Shizel, Jecht, Ultimecia (I think?). Hrist I'm unsure given I prorate storebought status blockers. Not a good Godlike, but still nabbing wins and not like there are many Heavies to compare her to here

Celes- Ooph. Loss of that skillset is painful. Goodbye Vanish, goodbye Flare/Pearl. Status is turn 2 to me (except Imp which is more like turn 4) and that doesn't make a Confuse lock great. 37.2% Ice Magic, 29.3% Physical to Most of the DL. Uh...well, the defenses and evasion are nice, but 3.5
>>In the DL: Still beats Rolf (who is also not a Godlike). Think still may beat Poo (she slows his status, Berserk's him, then outslugs), Crono, Elmdor and Feena, so ironically I still think she should be a Heavy champion (granted, that's a really Middle-ish field). Would imagine she loses to Endora/Necrosaro/Citan/Taro

Cyan- Slow 5HKOer or ID that goes off on turn 3.8 (Granted, Cyan's turn 3.8). Has a few things against quite bad Lights. 2.3
>>DL Wise: Loses to Melody, Zegai, Logg, Zappa, Hawkeye. Charging for ID gets Aeris and Bernadette though

Edgar- Turn 1 Confuse and effective turn 2 ID, although this my scaling I don't see the Confuse as a lock down (although pondering a bonus for effective in game lock down). Can opt for some MBlock for some turn 1 status evasion. 3.95
>>In the DL: Loses to Diekbeck, maybe Delita, Lyn, Hugo, Slust if Slust has evasion (obviously me not respecting ITE really hurts)

Gau- Hates losing the Snow Muffler. Flip side, he's still above average speed and has a host of nasty stuff. Turn 2 Charm, can spoil status/ID/elements. 4.1. That Charm is nasty.
>>Actually seems about right, which is surprising considering.

Gogo- Well, I think I limit Gogo to 1 special skillset, but regardless Edgar or Strago's status, Shadow's Damage + Evade spoiling or Sabin's Damage is a nasty combo, especially with a fast turn 1. Uh...sigh. 4.4/shouldn't have been ranked

Locke- 26.5% Phys Damage that adds up 33% ITD Damage as Lock loses HP. Around 90% Durability and good turn 1 Speed. Someone doing average damage will push him up to around 40% damage turn 2 and 55% turn 3, so it's an effective anti-healer measure and makes him a surprisingly nasty slugger...in Light. 2.95
>>DL: Loses to Palom (obv). Probably beats Fiora (to me at least; she's not evading before he 3HKOs), definitely beats Mia,, ight beat Yangus if I updated DQ 8 status numbers

Think he probably still loses to Albert (assuming Rose Storm still halves damage and I allowing SP starting turn 1), but it's not a horrible match. So it's possible he should have ended in Middle in the DL for me (and I do wonder how much by 2.9 is skewed by past considerations of him)

Mog- Like Gau, hates losing Snow Muffler. Now durability is a bit below average plus Mog is slow. Reliable damage is a 5HKO; if he's faster or can take 2 turns, Wind Song's Healing can net some slugfest wins. Uh...2.65? Hard to really place.
>>DL: Loses to Rath and Cleo. Could beat Sarah, but probably not.

Relm- 28% Physical Damage against most of the DL (214% against non-Humans), Above average durability and speed and laughs at most elements. 2.65
>>DL Wise: Loses to Olan to me (but Olan is quite good to me!). Feel like she also likely loses to Rebecca (but I didn't open the WA 5 topic)

Sabin- 65.2% ITD Damage, 102.8% Speed Over Two Turns, A Bit Averagish Defenses. 4 sounds about right
>>DL Wise: No Disagreements (well, like I remember anything about Cameela)

Setzer- Swingy 30.5% average ITD damage (Good for healer busting), tad slow and about average durability. 2.7
>>DL Wise: Well, assuming that Alice doesn't halve Fixed Dice, I still think she wins (she 3HKOs, so while she may need to heal once, this isn't being dragged out long enough for the healer busting to matter) and Rikku (who is a Godlike)

Shadow- 58.4% ITD Damage, 110% Turn 1 Speed/105.8% over 2 Turns), Spoils Physicals pretty well. Even Mdur isn't much of a flaw (90%ish, which isn't OHKOed often in Heavy, although there are going to be some faster 2HKOing mages). 4.35
>>In the DL: Loses to Moltres (slightly faster turn 2 to me, let alone people with more SD respect). Despite not having ITE to me, Wakka and Lyn bite it to Shadow's anti phyiscal nature regardless!

Strago- 55% ITD MAgic, Can hit 2 of Poison, Sleep, Mute and Muddle at once (which is not amazing, but certainly can buy wins a number of wins). Near average durability on the whole, but sluggish. 3.6
>>In the DL: Loses to Hahn (halves? 25% res to Sleep/Mute/Muddle which I think slows Strago down too much). Might beat Guy, but not too sure there. Loses to Kraken. Beats Mog (obv!). Beats Alfina (lol w/ Gaia Gear)

Umaro- 173% PDur, 120% MDur, At least nulls the big 3 elements, averagish speed, and average 31.6% damage (which is often ITD). Solid slugging Middle. 3.45
>>In the DL: Beats Heath. Suspect I would see him beating Rouge with status scaling included for Saga. And uh...probably Izlude.

Kefka- So I did go a little easy on Kefka in at least 1 way since I end up seeing him with 1.24 PC HP. Granted, the first turn is slow and back row doesn't help with his damage (still OHKO, but only about 114%) and good relative evasion can slow him down (need a lot though). Train is nasty in game, but isn't useful in Godlike. Inability to chip around half his HP will result in a nasty counter. 4.65
>>In the DL: Beats Choko, Freya, Ash. Might lose to Decus, certainly Piastol (defense, chips around counter limit, faster), Royce (that durability split), PD, Fou-Lu (although Fou-Lu crushed him later), False Althena (what a slaughter), Elc (More slaughter), Probably Van (durability, although could be overrating there, but one limit will be fatal), Yuna

So remaining wins are Fujin, Nate, Anastasia, Endora, Sephiroth (Chipping aroudn the limit is an issue. Flying out of range means lower damage), Yuri, Luca, Ramirez, Wren, Zio (still 2HKOs before Zio 2HKOs), Lugia, Lloyd, probably Zeromus.

So definitely still a Godlike, but struggles against upper tier

Doom- PC HP, Fast, but damage isn't great (Charge Time to have near OHKO damage! Otherwise sadness). Granted, not a bad Heavy. 4.25

Poltrgeist- The durable Goddess. 93% PC HP, but almost halves physicals and cuts magic by 1/3. Fast, turn 2 killer status (needs to hit 2 statuses though), borderline 2HKO damage (albeit at 72% accuracy), gets nastier below 56% HP (which isn't bad with her durability). Could swing low Godlike thanks to the Flare Star smash later on. 4.55

Goddess- 70% HP, 48%! Pdur, a slow turn 1. Woof. Don't think she's quite a Light since she can be dangerous if she gets...2 turns, but 3.25.

Ultros- About 2 PC HP in Lete River form, but just 1.18 Pdur and weak to Lightning and Fire. 72% Physical Damage spammable damage to me. 4.25
>>In the DL: Beats Cecil, I think Feena (she doesn't quite have the firepower to make this happen)

Random Bosses I meant to rank before
Albedo- 1.2 PC HP, 50% PC HP Damage that also heals him (although I wouldn't give that too much credit since it's 6.8% of his HP in game, but worth something?), Confusion and EP killing. I'm okay with Demonic Gaze doing 0.5 PC HP against bosses; he's really bad otherwise against bosses. Bad bad damage except for Fallen Angel, which is a turn charge hidden behind an HP limit on someone with bad HP. 4.65
>>In the DL: Loses to Ghaleon for a second time...Beats Fei for a second time. Beats Terra, Probably Jecht, Sephiroth

[Dark Holy Elf]

I definitely think you're underrating Celes! Just digging in with Safe (+Haste if you respect that at all, totally fine if you don't) + good defences + Minerva outstalls a surprising number of opponents. She didn't have much trouble hanging in Low Godlike and the only thing that's really changed is her status is worse (but turn 2 statuses still win fights, and of course much status that would kill make her lose is worse too, by your views). She'd kill Middle by any reasonable views.

I agree with "do not nom" for Gogo, but want to emphasize that he's not fast. Sneak Ring hype is ridiculous, RunningShoes are storebought as are many other good relics. You're giving Gogo and Locke credit for something completely irrelevant in-game because +5 FF6 speed is a pathetic use of a relic slot. At minimum, you could maybe argue Sneak Ring + Running Shoes is worth +5 speed on another character using [some other relic] + Running Shoes, though a penalty for not using [some other relic] is still in order even then.

Similarly, Umaro. IMO if he wants to use a Rage Ring, you should at the very least scale his damage against people using Earrings / Atlas Armlet in that slot. Same issue as Gogo, FF6 relic slots are valuable! And in Umaro's case, anything to make him look a bit closer to his (terrible) in-game use seems desirable to me.

FF6 ITD ignores Safe/Shell/row/Morph/(other effects which reduce damage by a percentage), so would certainly ignore Rose Storm and Alice's damage reduction as well.

[Dhyerwolf]

You may be right about Celes, although I don't respect Haste. However, she is losing both Vanish and Flare (ITD! non elemental magic!) and I might actually only take Maneater with a bonus of the susceptible enemies in endgame (and might then see Relm with Punisher. The other users dont' want it under my views and it certainly fits a compromise equip).

I agree on Sneak rings and Umaro. I'm removing the Sneak Rings and thinking about giving Umaro a 20% damage penalty.

And that definitely helps ITD (So I think Locke would beat Albert, but would have to math it out. I thought Alice likely won regardless, but could be wrong there).

[Dhyerwolf]

FF4 in the DL that I didn't get to do previously

Edge- Probably loses to Groudon and Ho'oh (Ho'oh safeguard and outslugs, Groudon will get in 2 hits since no 100% sleep). Under standard DL views does beat Cleo as well.

Edward- Trololo. Okay, should still lose to Cait Sith, Piccolo, Karyl, Raja.

Beats Forde easily enough.

Basically, if your basic physical sucks, Edward's Confuse strategy will fail at some point. If your basic physical is decent, it can turn.

Under standard DL views (aka: he's rocking 100% status): Beats Forde. Beats Karyl. Probably beats Raja (that speed difference). Does still lose to Vinsfield! Loses to Cait Sith because Cait Sith gets Confused, self damages, triggers an immediate limit.

Palom- Actually, no real point. Wins all the Light losses he had, and Odessa is a nightmare to me
Porom- Probably doesn't lose to Jude or Gijimu



Xenogears since I finished replaying his a few weeks ago
Fei- Decent durability and speed, 49% mostly Dark damage, 32.9% mostly Fire/Water/Wind or Earth damage. Can trade some damage to cut the average phsyical by 60% or can get 50% Evade that does poor Counter damage that lasts for a long time. Could be a low Heavy, but doesn't quite feel like the punch is there due to the ways to spoil. 3.65

In the DL: Loses to Fujin (at least I figure; is it totally possible that she's still OHKOed? Potentially), Albedo, Bosch (I would think), Celia, Evade spoil should get Nephenee. Cant' say I remember Renee

Citan- Speed! 157% with the ability to double it + 54% mostly Elemental DAmage plus a fw other tricks that could see some use. Godlike, albeit one that generally struggles to nab many wins. 4.65

In the DL: Beats Choko (obviously, he's not a Light). Would think Mewtwo would take this (Citan can't kill before Mewtwo gets two turns) and Barrier + Recover would mean that Mewtwo would outlast if Citan tried to outheal. Might potentially beat CEles under my view, but would have to math out. Probably loses to Eirika to me, but would need to math out.

Elly- Slow, below average HP, 35% damage. On the wrong side of all curves, and Lunar Rod being turn 2 definitely doesn't help. Nevertheless, there the argument that once the Sleep hits she wins in which case she's a decent Light (generally not getting 2HKOed as often there). 2.85

In the DL: Woof. So loses to anyone likely that I see having any sleep resistance. Lani, Chisato, Rikku, Miakis, Human Reis. Probably others she loses to as well but she's still winning a lot of this Light matches. Should be Vincent

Bart- Dual spoiling fun. Laughs at evadable physicals either by boosting his evade or ruining their accuracy or both. Magic is halvable (granted, at a damage cost himself). Staying on the right side of the speed curve barely does help. 38% Damage or 29.7% if needs Speed busting. L/M package without the tricks, but I think the tricks get him to around 3.5 (albeit could spoil much better fighters).

In the DL: No Changes

Billy- Hates being Holy-locked. 90% Speed and 94% HP, but can double the speed. 47.8% damage. 4.2. The Holy reliance really hurts because he'd be close to Godlike otherwise

In DL: Loses to Maya thanks to elements. Sasarai may take him out (looks like keeping the subtractive aspect of XG defense in place, Sasarai does OHKO, but just misses if it's converted to division; Also depends on what SD you use)

Rico- 119% HP, 74% Speed, 38% Damage, Cuts Physicals by a third. A Light; not horrible but not great. Had him like 11th in List, so I feel like he looks better when not compared to others. 2.7

In the DL: Lol, he lost to Llewelyn. Oops. Loses to Luna (buff/buff/heal/heal/smite)

ChuChu- 2
Maria- 2

Emeralda- A bit above average durability, 133% Speed, 41% Damage. So basically a little above average + speed. 3.4

Id- 95% PC HP, 40% magic res, 114% Speed Turn 1, 250!% After that, 76% Damage (Although since it requires focus, I don't respect him using it every turn. Hey, limited in game to using any non basic physical every 3 turns, which works for me in allowing the full focus. Albeit, I guess would still allow free reign otherwise). Still the 2HKO off that speed. Heavy. Limiting the damage does hurt so going to say 4.1.

In the DL: Might lose to Zalbard (Didn't he have HP? But also the best damage was magic). I'd think if he loses to Hugo he loses to Augustine. Cristo is close, but looks like Id still pulls that one at (Id double DBs, Cristo heals, Id doubles and uses 2 regular DBs and will kill with the magic so Cristo is stuck between healing or raising defense)

Grahf- About PC HP, but 70% Mdur. A bit slow, 67% Physical Damage, quite accurate. 3.55 or something

Miang- Let's say 71% HP with good Mdef and 100% Instant Death. Hate her as a dueller, but 3.95 and may we never speak of her otherwise.

Dominia- Well, the damage move unlocks when the allies are dead, so I have to remove any concept of HP credit I ever gave her. 42% HP, but manages near average Pdur, like 140% speed and 43% ITE damage. WA 4 Tony without as much speed. Like 2.7 or something

Kelvena- 2.25

Seraphita- 63% HP, Halves Magic, 95% Speed,  Full EP Damage, Susceptible to basically any debilitating status (including ID). Double spoiler who could possibly find a beatable Godlike and loses to some Lights. 3.3 or something???

Tolone- 2.5. Bad with some elemental spoiling

[Dark Holy Elf]

I dunno that I'd view Billy as holy-elemental DL-wise. Literally nothing in Xenogears resists his "holy" element, and only two enemies are weak to it, both Wels. I'm more inclined to view his damage as simply hitting weakness on undead, as a result. It seems rather ridiculous to say that an FFT character can slap on a Chameleon Robe and become immune to being shot.

[Dhyerwolf]

Hmm, right. I guess Fei should also get the same thing for Dark.

[superaielman]

Mario Rabbids. Note: Strong DNR to all the bosses.  I also have to figure out how seriously I take overwatch. Technically it's useless against faster enemies in the DL, but that really is not how it functions in game.


Mario- 3.5. Good damage and dangerous against healers, but has no recourse against status or high physical defense. I would need to see him in PG to figure out how good he is in the division.

Rabbid Peach- 3.2. Below average fighter across the board with just enough tricks to stay in the division.

Rabbid Luigi- 4.3. The hero we need. Drain game and anti damage tricks are amazing; the big DL problem is status (Or drain resistance). He starts to run into problems with OHKOs in high heavy; see fight with Golbez in Futurama.

Luigi- 2.4. Some nasty anti healer tricks and does bad things with Ink if you're slower than him. That HP score makes sure that he stays in Light however.

Peach- 3.8. She might scrape Heavy just based on the regen+offense. Status is useful too. Doesn't like status but is hard to slug down without that.

Rabbid Mario- 3.2. Turn two stone is nice and so is draining in long matches, but the techs are very marginal. Best I can say for his skills that his barrier might buy him an extra turn and Magnet Dance could null enemy evade for a turn. Oof. DL damage not great due to tech woes. Kind of reminds me of Gafgarion of all things.


Rabbid Luigi-3.3. Feels wrong he's ranked this high, but outer shell is legit. Damage isn't great and I am uninclined to respect Scaredy Rabbid much. It could be higher but the overall durability/damage package is just not great.

Yoshi-3.4. Decent damage/durability package but not anything special. Might be worse than RM in practice but I'd have to see them in proving grounds to tell.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Mario Rabbids. Note: Strong DNR to all the bosses.  I also have to figure out how seriously I take overwatch. Technically it's useless against faster enemies in the DL, but that really is not how it functions in game.

Why would it be useless against faster opponents? It's useful against any melee opponents. Move away from the opponent and use overwatch, and the opponent has a choice between not moving that turn (and hence not attacking, if they rely on melee), or triggering it. I guess you could let faster opponents wait and attack right after it ends, doubleturning then, but even then, it still lets the Mario PC effectively push back the opponent's turn (allowing them to face one less enemy attack than they otherwise would), so no matter what it's an important push against melee foes.

[superaielman]

I forgot that Overwatch ended at the start of the PC's next turn, so yeah I'm wrong there. I am inclined to give the overwatch skills some credit though; they're pretty awesome in game.


Mario I think I may be lowballing as a fighter, but he's got nothing backing up that offense. If he's a heavy he's a pretty bad one.

[Dhyerwolf]

I Am Setsuna

Endir- Good PC in-game, but doesn't get a great translation to the DL since some worth focused on AoE and he's the only one who lacks either a great defensive buff or status. 75% Healing, can hit both defenses and Battlecry strategies help. Battlecry is a nice way to potentially pump durability up a bit while making his turns come quicker (does ~1.2 PC damage of either type at ~2.81 clockticks, so it gives him a slightly fast 3HKO). Cast worst dueller I think (granted, just barely and Kir was worse in previous versions) 3.25

Setsuna- Spam Luminaire and hope it's enough. This allows her to do 1.78 PC HP Holy/Lightning Magic before she runs out of steam or 1.3 PC HP   with a status immunity weapon). Solid gimmick in Middle, but definite flaws (other healers, strong enough elemental resistance, high end evasion). 3.35

Aeterna- Giving me Tidus+more traditional FF Time Mage. Fast, very accurate turn 1 stop, 3HKO and a fantastic, fantastic evasion move (although she wishes it got status, but getting all HP damage is still great since there's very little ITE I'd see getting through it). She definitely has flaws (statusers that she can't status out first), some ARPG bosses with many hits, super durable bosses (although just 1 type of defense doesn't wall her).

Against single hit damage:
If she doesn't double, she can output ~2 PC HP physical damage under Mirage and ~1.57 PC HP Magic)

Deserving Godlike, although I think the level of boss status in the division makes her struggle

4.65

NIdr- Two nasty statuses + above average speed turn 1. If you are solely dependent on either just physical or magical damage, he has a good shot of spoiling (Counter/Double Back->wait for SP->Tenacity->Attack+Momentum->Attack+Momentum->Repeat; This allows him to do 2.14 PC HP Damage over 3 cycles. 4.15

Kir- Vanish is a life-saver. Allows him to do 1.51 PC HP magic damage while needing to only take 1 hit, or do 1 PC HP in a hit against a healer, or 1+ PC HP damage that deals with dispellable moves. Can also come out doing 65.5% Magic, with 80% Healing and with the enemy damage weakened. Stringing this strategy out nets 3.2 PC HP magic damage

OHKO, status out or have AoE. 4. Would be a Light without vanish.

Julienne- Wishes she was above average speed, but still solid. Effectively infinite healer with a nasty turn 1 status and hovering around average stats. Having semi-credible enough damage of both times never hurts. 4

Fides- Fast + accurate ID and Paralysis. Status immunity will make him run the other way in Heavy usually, but that's rare. 4.05

A few reranks for modification of status views
BoF 3
Momo- Her statuses jump back to turn 1, giving her a complete set of turn 1 options now. 4.  (Was 3.75

Rei- Silence is now turn 1. Useful upgrade against some mages. 4.05. (Was 3.9)

Nina 3- Blunt and Slow are now turn 1. Blunt is very effective to me (cutting physical damage like 60% and gets better against low attack))...which actually gives her a solid strategy against Light fighers since if it hits, she'll jump to around 140% PDur. 2.75. (Was 2.75, but I was giving her itemcasts that likely weren't legal beacuse they actually succeeded in making her interesting)

Peco- Sleep is now turn 1, instead of turn 3. Sleep is...excellent since it gvies Peco an EXA (so two free turns to heal/breath/physical on the last). Considering that this does a lot of alleviate one of Peco's two biggest issues, feels like Peco can claw up in Middle. 3.1 (Was 2.75)

Hilda- ID is turn 3 to me (which a recharge). Still has some use with her durability and healing against some Middle healers perhaps. And she still has Haste-Healing as well. 3.3 (Was 4.15

LO

Jansen- Curse/Seal/Paralysis are barely turn 2, rest is turn 3 (except Death which is very bad), so can inflict Curse/Seal/Paralysis turn 1 with double cast (Seal is likely the only one worth it). Still has like OHKO damage at 50% speed. Uh...2.85. (Was 3.3)

Mack- Fear falls from turn 1 to turn 2. Fast 5HKO Physical (Or Buff + 3HKO), some not great magic options and a few other grab-bag. 2.8 (Was 3.2)

Sarah/Ming- Goodbye to a lot of turn 1 status, although none of the effects were super useless. Still a little loss 2.65 (Was 2.8)

[Dhyerwolf]

Trails 3
To start, thanks to S-Crafts, all the cast generally plays the same way on damage. Use magic spell + S-Craft to try for something in the 2HKO range generally around turn 2.2. Later Trails games definitely have a more interesting balance on this, but there's no way to really escape here.

Hard to gauge some status stuff now since I haven't seen in practice (and I'm still chewing over accessories. Current thought is still the half effect for status resistance).

Kevin- Turn 1 fatal status with trails blockers is solid alone (although his status isn't a strong turn 1 to me, so he'll be notably better for everyone else). Throw in the Healing which pairs well with Clock Down, the best AT Delay option (against a slower enemy, Kevin can line this up to do 1.24 PC HP damage so it's a healer busting option against some...maybe). 1.05 PC HP damage at around 2.3 turn if delay is out. 4

Ries- 1.10 PC HP damage at turn 2.2. The healing might see some use in Middle despite the speed slowdown. Turn 1 Confuse and Silence are nice options. 3.45

Agate- Fantastic in game for reasons that don't translate as Wild Rage is great, but given the 100 CP starting point, irrelevant. 88% damage at turn 2 turn if he took a hit, and 1.12 PC HP at turn 3.33 if he takes 1 attack (while delaying enemy 0.67 turns, so think of it as a fast 3 turn), decent durability and has some magic it he needs a backup. 3.2 or something

Estelle- 0.87 PC HP damage at turn 1.24, 0.96 at 2, 1.13 PC HP damage at turn 2.24. Loves that's big S-Craft for all that an ST S-Craft in game is a sad thing. Has full healing, but the speed slowdown associated hurts its use. 100 CP versus 50 and the slowdown in Healing makes her a lot worse than her Trails 1 form. 3.45

Josette- Turn 1 might as well be Fatal Paralysis. That's it!  3.6, but borderline Heavy under other status views I think

Joshua- 110% HP, Option for turn 1 Silence. 96.7% PC HP Damage at turn 2 (if he's taken an attack), 107.9% at turn 3.24 (which delays an enemy 0.55). ID is borderline turn 4/5. 3.45

Julia- Mirageberg is her cute DL trick, although it doesn't amount to a lot thanks to losing CP so no S-Craft; might be useful against some very durable opponent who lacks healing. Clock Down does pair nicely with it though. Otherwise, has the best attack spell so on the better side of damage. 3.45

Kloe- Has obtained a damaging S-Craft and good thing because the stat Down game was nerfed badly after game 1. Clock Down + Healing is a great combo. 1.05 PC HP at turn 2.25. Unlike Estelle, she has enough going on to keep her in Heavy. 3.9

Mueller- Turn 3 effective fatal Paralysis, Turn 2 Mute, good healing (albeit that moves his speed worse), but the normal backloading S-Craft fun. He'll be a lot better to others where the statuses are 1 turn quicker. 3.45

Olivier- Turn 1 and around 103% PC HP damage at turn 2.2. Low Middle thanks to Confuse I think. 3.2

Renne- Turn 3 ID (much better for everyone else where it's effectively turn 1 though), 1.1 PC HP at turn 2.18, and solid turn 1 Silence. Can't see the Healing mattering much with her poor HP and the slow down. 77% HP hurts when your 2HKO is a tad slow; 3.35

Richard- Best damage. 85% at turn 1, 93% damage at turn 1.24, 99% at 1.66 and nearly 120% at 1.88, the last two using the crazy high recharge on his techs.

For others, the tech blitz strategy is also good because the Faint is turn 4 if a status is really needed for some reason. It's turn 6 to me, so it's less relevant. Clock Down could see occasional use.

Doesn't quite feel like a Heavy considering I didn't think Laura was either (and the nearly OHKO turn 1ish damage makes them feel similar), although Richard's magic damage obviously so, so much better and lets him deal with healers who aren't OHKOed. Also turn 1 Silence option so maybe.  I'll just say 3.8

Scherazard- So her S-Craft includes status that is either fatal, basically fatal, wrecks fighters or wrecks mages/techs. 50% chance of fatal isn't enough, so I'll see it getting Blind or Confuse depending on which is better. Fox Tail is a cute concept, but it's a high cost and lower damage than Richard's hyper low RT option (Schera's is faster though), but may be a better damage rush than the S-Craft regardless. Schera can do 79% PC HP damage at turn 1.74 or 95% PC HP damage at turn 1.9 if she takes a hit in addition to the standard 99% PC HP damage at turn 2.2. Throw in turn 1 Silence as an option for more status. 3.55

Tita- Talk about a massive upgrade. Orbal Gear is fantastic, given Tita near S-Craft damage every turn, giving her access to accurate Paralysis. doubling her HP  and increasing her speed 50% (which the game doesn't even tell you!). Granted, near S-Craft damage is still a high 4HKO. If you don't block Paralysis, you need to OHKO her and while her HP is bad, it's not generally that bad. Really interesting Low Heavy is my gut. 3.85

Zin- Good HP and best speed (for all that doesn't mean much). True Distend is nice; giving him a borderline 2HKO with additional bulk for longer matches. Good HP. Turn 3 Confuse, which isn't as bad with that HP and a little extra speed. 3.45...am I stuck on that number? I gave it to almost half the cast.

Cassius- The Legend. Cassius has some pretty spectular build-up as far as being pretty badass, and that holds mostly true (at least in a pre-MQ world). Around 1.4 PC HP to me, solid speed + great recharges, cuts damage by about 25%, borderline 2HKO at base (anything + SCraft). But Qilingong is great, giving him instead a solid 2HKO and boosting his speed 50%. He can have an near-infinite delay loop (until he misses at least) that is somewhat resistant to evasion; I think that he's an effetive PC killer type and that the rest of the package isn't bad enough to keep him from Godlike. 4.6

[Dhyerwolf]

Brigandine!

Few notes to start
I take a lower magic defense to reflect in game, boosting both magic damage and magic status hit rates
I include monsters in averages (although Rune Knights outnumber than like 5-1)
I include the part of the starting equips that weren't included in the topic
I dock quest knights for EXP in a similar manner to what the topic does for the late joiners.
I use Level as the speed stat for the first turn (everyone is average afterwards). It also effects status durations for statuses that wear off.
I see all moves as elemental. For Holy/Dark, I probably halve any resistance they face (there are various aspects about this I go back on forth on, but I may also refactor aspects about how I see armor based elemental resistances). I do take 6 orbs as fully elemental, so anything less than 6 orbs isn't as badly hit by elemental resistance.
I don't see defenses as potent as the topic does (I'm at about 60% effect of the topic)
Turn 1 magic/non moving physicals have anti-initiative (if a Brig character is faster normally, they will go right after the opponent. This will lead to an auto-double if the opponent is below average speed however.)

Eliza- 110% HP, 135% PDur, 124% Mdur, 24% Evade (turn 3), 1.89 SD, 51% Physical Damage, 62% Magic Damage (just 2 shots though). Is this enough for Heavy with the additional potential short range tricks and status immunity. Going to say barely. 3.8

Rubino- 122% HP, 145% Pdur, 180% MDur, -0.86 sD, 45% Physical Damage, 57% Magic Damage (jsut 2 shots). Blizzard Shot Faint is 44% to me, so that does definitely have uses if he is 3HKOed and isn't 2HKOing himself, but I don't know how enough it's coming up realistically. 3.6

Rudo- 102% OPB Damage, 60% Otherwise, basically around 150% Durability. Fights like a boss in game and in the DL. +3.25 SD turn 1. 4.5. Very borderline and could be overrating a little, but nasty turn 1 speed + OHKO + durability + status immunity feels right at the borderline.

Stella- 122.4% HP, 139% Pdur, 133% Mdur, 0.24 SD plus 50.3% Phys damage with 50.8% Faint off Ambush, so that being turn 1 is fantastic for her since it means that she'll be seeing Dragon's Destruction. That could make her a low Heavy, but could be a very swingy strategy. 3.8

Talia- 104% HP, 117% Pdur, 109% Mdur, 17% Evasion (turn 4), -0.31 SD, 43.1% Physical Damage. A Middle who wins on either spoiling status or the heal and counter game (She can add another 2.9 PC HP to potentially in this manner). Fittingly the worst duelling ruler. 3.25

Tim- ~120% Pdur, 140% Mdur, 1.34 SD and 63% damage, but can only be used three times before MP is out (then falls back to 42% damage though). Also has 50% magic damage should he needs to just bypass evasion. Solid package overall. 3.6

Adieu- 122.5% HP, 120% Pdur, ~130% Mdur, +1.34 SD, 51.2% Damage with 42% Stun to me is nice. Definitely a good Middle. 3.55

Alsin- During 1.25 Pdur and 1.3 Mdur, +1.89 SD turn 1, 49.6% base damage that also heals about 5% of his HP. Never really sees his nasty damage though (I guess at someone using SR AoE or MT physicals). 3.35

Della- 113% Durability with 46.3% evasion, +0.79 SD and 45.2% Damage. The status is 74% to me, so she'd hit twice in a row should she do that which could be worse (although it's probably nothing to count on too much). 3.5

Elena- Bad translation. Great in game with range and mobility, 94.8% ITE on turn 2, counters short range, but around 90% durability and -0.31 SD to start turn 1. Turn 3 evade against slightly below 100% accuracy when it comes up. 2.7

Emma- 140% Pdur, 125% Mdur, -0.31 SD, can get 90.1 damage on turn 2 (phys+mag). Probably not enough for Middle despite the durability. 2.95

Gilliam- A test of how well the Heal game with nothing else works. If he can heal and counter, he can chain his Pdur up at about 2.3 (poor MP/Int hampers him), so he can take averagish fighter types if anyone who can remotely get around the Counters (or basically any healer) will have no issue. I'm gutting 2.4, so it's hard to pencil in an exact amount of people the strategy actually works against and that's pretty critical to where he falls.

Ginger- This is a place where I would have a hilariously large interp split compared to literally anyone else. My status balancing ends up making Charm 95%. If you are slower than Ginger (she's above average speed slightly), then her game is:

-->Attack-->Charm (Nets an average of 1 excess turn, say 1 for this example)-->Curse-->Charm-->Curse

The magic itself barely 2HKOS, so add in the attack and this is about 1.25 PC HP. The chance of this strategy actually working is 60% (0.95 * 0.95 * 0.67- 0.67 is the chance of her gaining at minimum 2 excess turns from using Charm twice), putting over my 50% status threshold

She's just lacking enough MP to use Charm x 3 and Frost x 3 as a backup if she runs into Dark resistance, but Frost x 2 + Attack does about 95% PC HP damage (this is where Selena has a leg up with 40 more MP)

Also about 74% HP, 67% Pdur to me. I'm going to say 3.45. There's a lot of ways this strategy can be tripped up (OHKO her, resist Dark enough, reduce Charm 10% of more, defensive buffs, but it feels solid-ish in Middle

Ginny- I could list stats, but it's all about his hilarious accuracy at the end of the day. He does have 60% damage off good initiative, but accuracy means that he's needing 3 turns to kill on average. I think he scrapes MIddle thanks to being able to go ITE against short range fighters which really helps. 3.1

Iyona- Troubadour is definitely the worst class for duelling. Iyona can try for a Silence game, which either eats MP quickly or runs out quickly. Going to say 2.2

Jiu- Much better at the Heal+Counter game than Gilliam. Not only can she chain to up to an additional ~2.8 PC HP Pdur, she has a 54% magic spell to help her finish off (this reduces her to about 2 extra Pdur via healing).  I gave Cai a 2.8 back in the day and she feels relatively similar in many ways although the counters are more damaging in her case so 2.9, although could be Middle maybe.

Kyle- 125% HP, 142% PDur, 152% Mdur, 1.89 SD. 52% MAgic damage (used twice) or 43.8% Physical Damage. Can add another 1.15 PC HP, so the Heal+Counter game is there although can't really pump up his durability too much compared to mages (but better durability and twice the physical damage to start). Wishes he can a more overwhelming strategy. 3.6

Medessa- Jiu with a little less in all stats but adding in Paralyze...which effectively gives her somethign similar to Ginger's game (Medessa will need 3 Paralyzes to net 2 turns though and does 1.18 PC HP with an Attack and two Divine Rays. I'm going to say 3.65 as having much better Pdur than Ginger helps as does combining two strategies.

Mu'ah- Turn 1 Stone as long as he can survive a hit. Good damage too, but he's not really going to winning with that in Heavy.  Weakness to Ice isn't a big deal comparatively. 3.95

Pick- Wishes Elena came into a duel with him, because all his strategies are sad otherwise due to bad bad MP for a mage. 55% Pdur, 77% Mdur, turn 2 evade, 45% damage but he can only use it 3 times. He also doesn't have the speed to capitalize on Paralyze/Silence even if he had the MP, so he's hoping to face fighters where he can 2HKO and evade a hit. 2.25

Sid- 112% durability, turn 3 evade, slightly above average speed and 49.7% base damage (which gets much better against melee). Doesn't like being Lightning locked. 3.15

Sin- 91% PDur, 180% Mdur, -0.31 SD and 105% damage on turn 2. The pdur and losing initiative to average seem like they keep him in Light despite the 2HKO. 2.95

Toby- Basically beats evadable physicals. Just throwing him inside low Middle like Gaius is probably the right answer although Gaius isn't elementally locked (but Toby's 36% damage is better so I think it's a winning trade...but weak to Fire, right). 3.2

Tommy- ARound 102% durabilty with some status weakness, turn 3 evade, -0.31 SD and 36.9% damage and a lesser damage that's fully ITE if needed. 2.95

Umimaru- ~145% Pdur, ~110% Mdur, 0.24 SD, Status Immune, 91% damage on turn 3, 128% on turn 3. Not super impressive, but works in Middle. 3.2