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Lady Door

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Re: Books
« Reply #750 on: November 10, 2010, 04:39:10 PM »
I seem to be in the minority here, so now I'm curious to hear from the people who read/have read Wheel of Time:

Who's your least favorite character? Why? Favorite, and why?

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superaielman

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Re: Books
« Reply #751 on: November 10, 2010, 09:34:55 PM »
Elfboy: *Blink* You really don't know who that assassin is for sure?

Favorite character? Mmm. Nynaeve for females. I love the humanity Nynaeve brings to both Rand for the later parts of the series, and her calling out the Aes Sedai on their usual bullshit. She grows up a lot during the series, but her core personality isn't warped much.  She just matures and comes to accept her fate as an Aes Sedai. Male character is Rand. Mat is great, but Rand is hands down the best character in the series when he gets camera time.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Books
« Reply #752 on: November 10, 2010, 09:45:49 PM »
*smacks Super* Not an appropriate thing to say before I finished the book.

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Re: Books
« Reply #753 on: November 10, 2010, 09:51:08 PM »
I just finished Towers of Midnight, and I gotta say the second half blew me away. I mean, who could have guessed that Demandred was Olver? And Asmodean died of a broken heart? Incredible stuff.

But seriously I highly enjoyed the book. The Perrin stuff was way, way overdue. Jordan kept his character development in stasis far too long and the eventual conclusion there was highly satisfying. Mat's section was fun too, looking forward to whatever goes on there after that. Elayne sucks but what else is new. Other Female Character You Can Probably Guess But I'm Not Naming Because It's In The Second Half Entirely had a very interesting part, I really liked what they did there.

It's the second half of an almost self-contained trilogy, like Lady Door said, but I still feel like it had enough going on and plot threads being resolved that I never felt it got bogged down by being unable to have giant payoffs.

These two are easily the best quality out of the series we've seen for awhile, and the last book is probably going to rock my balls off.

If you really want to know, my favorite character would be Bela. It's about time we had a strong female presence in high fantasy.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Books
« Reply #754 on: November 12, 2010, 07:48:10 AM »
Response to Lady Door first:

-I'll say right away that, at base, I think the female mains have an edge on the male mains because they lack that ta'veren label. This means the universe bends less to make them always win, and it feels like they work a bit harder and experience more setbacks, and thus are actually more personally impressive, particularly Egwene and Elayne. I mean, have Mat or Perrin even been so much as held captive by their enemies? Granted, Rand has, and in general, Jordan has been more willing to let him make mistakes (unlike Perrin) and suffer for them (unlike Mat).

-That said, overall my favourite is Rand - he just has the most character depth. Good Rand exceeds the best of any other character, and he's an excellent character study of random man having that much responsibility thrust upon him and the immense stress it puts him under. Elayne makes a close battle for this spot, though; she's generally been the best thing about the books since they left their first major peak around books 4-5, to me, I dig political arcs in fantasy and find her thought processes very amusing and relatable, and I love her ability to get shit done, as I touched on. Huge fan of book 12 Egwene for obvious reasons, and she's solid outside that, so also a favourite although the clear #3 to me overall.

-Least favourite... used to be Mat, because he does all sorts of just idiotic shit and never seems to actually pay for it. I also find him quite whiny in his internal monologue, although this is probably just me finding the personality type alien. However, in recent books I've warmed to Mat quite a bit; first Tuon made him a lot more fun, and in general I think Sanderson writes him better than Jordan did, with humour that works better for me. These days, thus, the least favourite is definitely Perrin. I kinda like him at base but his plot arc has been interminable ever since book 7. See my previous comments. As well as some forthcoming ones in the spoilertags. <_<

-Nynaeve's sort of in the in-between category for me, though I like her well enough. I'd probably have a stronger opinion of her if she'd done more since book... 7 or so? It feels like she's been relegated to more of a secondary role compared to the other five. Still, I do find myself largely nodding with Super's comments, she just appeals to me less personally.


Towers of Midnights - Done!

Good, although a bit of a mess at points. It's a step back from the previous two books mainly due to this, which is a shame because there's some really excellent stuff in there.


Oh, two things to get out of the way:

1. Okay, yeah, my bad on that assassin thing. I'd honestly thought those bloodknives died much too quickly to still be around, but the former damane Gawyn talks to does note they can survive weeks, so eh, sure.

2. DAMNIT MAT WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU OPEN THAT LETTER. *headdesk*


Anyway...

The good!

MAJOR CHARACTERS INTERACTING WITH EACH OTHER. Yes, by far the best part of the book to me, almost every scene where major characters met was memorable. Many of these were totally overdue. Elayne/Mat remains possibly my favourite scene in the book, but the others get hype too, both when they agree with each other and when they're practically enemies.

Elayne chapters were awesome as expected. I was afraid she'd have a smaller role in this book but instead she was second only to Perrin for screentime, with a mix from her own perspective and from those of Mat, Perrin/Faile, and Egwene/Gawyn. She intersects with all the other main stories in the book (shouldn't have to explain why I like this!), her interactions with them are great, and as always I dig the political side of her stories. Already commented on some of her notable scenes in my previous post.

Mat's chapters, despite my dread, were very solid. His interactions with Elayne, the fight with the gholam (the bit where he pulls out the medallion copies? Badass), the general humour. Only Mat chapters not really up to snuff were the Tower of Ghenjei, which at least managed to not be terrible, although a little hard to really care about given how little we actually know about the "villains" there, who have been irrelevant for 8 books now. I still feel nothing for Noal, also. Waste of space.

Egwene/Gawyn didn't get much but it was pretty good if not outstanding. I did like her scene with the Hall, though. Good stuff, very reminiscent of her book 12 awesome. Gawyn has just... managed to stop being an emo brat, seeing him grow up is good. He's never going to be an all-time favourite, but he's a far cry from "one of the worst characters in the series" that I used to think of him as.

The other brother, Galad got rounded out into a decent character. I liked how he stayed true to his ideals but saw the decency of Perrin through logic, and not ta'veren bullshit, despite ta'veren bullshit flying all around Perrin in this book. Great to see the whitecloak perspective actually done some justice since overall they're such goobers. Loved the theme of Perrin and Galad of the importance of keeping those who would fight in the Last Battle alive to do so.

Stuff gets tied up, again. Three books in a row where I can say that, though, so I'm no longer giving too many points, but it's something it has over 7/8/10 nicely at least.

Aviendha chapters are interesting foreshadowing, going to be interested to see where the last book takes them. I assume that it's an avoidable "bad future" (the fact that Tuon lasts very little time as Empress hints at this) but yeah. Does little for Avi herself, though. Also, who was that random woman she ran into on the way to Rhuidean? That scene was very suspicious.

I'm surprised at just how much shit is going to be hitting the fan in the last book. Whether this is actually good or bad remains to be seen, since it'll need to be handled well. Trolloc invasion in Andor, Seanchan invasion of the White Tower, something in the Black Tower, something like ten notable villains still alive... hopefully this will leave time for a good resolution of Rand's battle itself!


Less good:

My biggest problem with the book is that it's just too darn cluttered. Things like Ituralde's PoV, the Black Tower stuff (since it wasn't resolved), Lan's chapters, and so on. At least, they didn't need 3-4 scenes each! There's literally over a hundred perspective changes in the book. This is probably a design decision to make things seem more hectic as the Last Battle approaches, but I find it more annoying as I have to continually readjust to different characters, some of which I don't care about at all! Put these little side slices in the prologue and epilogue where they belong, or the occasional chapter dedicated to them, don't just scatter them everywhere as a distraction from the mains. Also, Book 13 really isn't the time to introduce new, minor characters.

Some of the Perrin stuff. Specifically: Oh my god Slayer. No. What a terrible villain. Why the fuck did he get so much screentime. Why the fuck is he still ALIVE after all that, meaning there's probably more to come. Way, way too much Perrin stuff in general, though I liked parts of it certainly (anything involving the whitecloaks or politics) but did we really need chapter upon chapter of wolf dreams and Hopper and Slayer? GRAH. Mesaana got taken care of in a tidy amount of time so why couldn't this? Because some random wolf-killing T'A'R-adept mook is this fascinating an antagonist? Give me more Padan Fain or something.

Man I hate it when books barely have Rand, he's too important. He's potentially interesting now, but also kinda creepy. I found myself withholding judgement on him throughout the book and I'm still going to do so until after book 14, but I really hope there's more to him than wise, messianic godmoding left. Really disappointing after how good he was in book 12!

Super notes that the book is predictable in some of its major events, and yeah, it is. Those events aren't really the book's strong points though anyway, so it's not too big a deal.

I find it kinda annoying that all three surviving female forsaken are being subjagated by the main (male) villains. None of the male forsaken ever have to put up with this shit, they just get blown up. (Side note, Lanfear's chance to survive book 14 actually just rose to non-negligible. Still low, though!)

Rand (or Logain, I'm not picky) needs to go open a deathgate in Mazrim Taim's stomach already. Easily now tops the list of plotlines inexplicably not yet resolved, really surprised he lasted until the final book.


Overall... the book is probably around where Lord of Chaos is to me. Or maybe a bit closer to Winter's Heart, which is a bit higher? Thereabouts, somewhere in the middle. Definitely worse than 2/4/5/11/12, definitely better than 1/3/7/8/10.

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Grefter

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Re: Books
« Reply #755 on: November 12, 2010, 01:49:16 PM »
Okay you had me interested and thinking about reading the books early instead of waiting for the last one like I had been going to.

But yeah you have lost me now

A million Perrin chapters with Slayer, Wolf Dreams and no resolution for them?  Pardon me while I gag.  This shit was introduced in book 5 and should be finished.

Elayne chapters.  Now I am a hater here, but this is more than just me hating.  I don't give a flying fuck about Andor anymore.  After 3 bouts of political upheaval the country can go fuck itself, it is nowhere near the edges of the Blight, it has had its convenient waygates sealed and Saldaea and you know all that shit Lan was doing kind of is a million times more important at this point.  Seriously, sort this shit out.  Put the cunts to the sword like I dunno, Rand did to the other 3 countries he conquered and make them get the sand out of their vaginas, the world is ending you douchebags.

Mazrim Taim is still alive.  Again, this plot needed to be finished 3 books ago.  I am bored of it and sick of reading his pointless stupid douchery.  This guy clearly betrayed Rand.  Why the fuck is he putting up with his shit?

Seriously a book about Perrin and Elayne?  Wow, way to write a book that I just want to never read.  What is next a George Martin book that is all about Cockmeat Greyjoy and Daenerys?

Also NO RAND AGAIN?  Book 3 had an interesting take on having less Rand and the Elf disagrees with me on it being a bit of a strength which is 100% totally fair.  We needed a book with less Rand.  Book 3 was not the one to do it, but I think the series is better to have had it and to have had it early.

Also pointedly no real Verin discussion, so fuck this book again, it can wait until the series is done.


Onto general things!  Nynaeve has been piss weak ever since she got married, the character just doesn't get used.  Siuan replaced Nynaeve as a narrative device, which fits since she fills the same role better in the split tower scenario than Nynaeve did.
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Captain K.

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Re: Books
« Reply #756 on: November 12, 2010, 01:58:51 PM »
Towers of Midnight:  finished.

This was a very happy, feel-good book.  The sun is shining, food appears again, Rand is saner than ever.  It's like the series is already over and the Last Battle is merely a formality.  Then the part with Aviendha happens and you realize that something ain't quite right!

Unlike the last book, this one has the appearance of being written by one author.  I'm assuming that's just Sanderson getting better at writing in the style of Jordan, rather than Jordan himself penning so much of it.

My favorite and least favorite characters are summed up pretty well by this book!

Favorite is Perrin, who gets lots of resolution in this book.  Unlike Rand who is stuck in godmode and Mat who is the comic relief of the series*, Perrin is just a normal guy who has gotten caught up in something bigger than himself.  Well, okay, normal guys don't talk to wolves and traverse dreamscapes, but he's still a very human character that's easy to relate to.  He doesn't ask for what's happened to him (both wolf-related and leadership-related), but he learns to accept it and tries his best.  He sometimes makes mistakes (lol at the marriage he performs in this book) but learns as he goes.  He also gets to smash things with a giant hammer, which is bonus style points.

Least favorite of the series is Elayne.  In the early books, Jordan can't decide on a personality for her and she changes every time she appears.  Then he does settle on one personality for her:  obnoxious-stupid.  Her botched interrogation in this book is pretty representative of what she's been like for the whole series.

*What I mean by comic relief is that everything that happens to Mat is ridiculously oversized.  He has colossal failures and ridiculous successess.  He's certainly amusing, but you don't find him believable at all.

Edit after reading Grefter's post:  No, Perrin actually gets resolved very well in this book.  I guess Slayer's still alive, but Perrin's quite strong enough to defeat him the next time he shows up.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 02:06:07 PM by Captain K. »

Grefter

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Re: Books
« Reply #757 on: November 12, 2010, 02:06:28 PM »
Quote from discussion with Super about mega spoilars and me being a bitchy bitch bitch being pasted here for giggles and posterity.

[23:53] <superaway> *Reads your rant* Read book 12 and 13.
[23:53] <Grefter> Fuck that.
[23:53] <Grefter> I have done the read this series and then be left waiting.
[23:54] <Grefter> I am going to sit down and read these one after another.
[23:54] <superaway> Some of the things you were talking about were resolved.
[23:54] <Grefter> Taim isn't dead.
[23:54] <Grefter> I don't care.
[23:54] <Grefter> If Taim isn't dead the books don't deserve it.
[23:55] <Grefter> I don't want to read these thigns being resolved now.
[23:55] <Grefter> I want these plot threads to be dropped and pretend they didn't matter.
[23:55] <Grefter> Because this shit is cold at this point.
[23:55] <superaway> Lame.
[23:55] <Grefter> It is.
[23:56] <Grefter> Remind me again why book 8 and 9 existed?
[23:56] <Grefter> Book 7 barely justifies itself.
[23:56] <superaway> I've never argued that 8-10 was the weakpoint of the series.
[23:57] <Grefter> Yeah so the series has a good 3 or so books to make up for.
[23:57] <Grefter> So I can wait for 3 books.
[23:58] <superaway> Not a long wait regardless, book 14's out next year
[23:58] <Grefter> Exactly.
[23:58] <Grefter> I have been waiting for some of these plot threads to resolve for over a decade now.
[23:58] <Grefter> I can wait another year to get my distasteful to little to late ending.
[23:59] * superaway shrugs. WoT's great, made mistakes. Happens.
[23:59] <superaway> Still the best fantasy series I've read.
[00:00] <Grefter> And?  That doesn't put it above criticism to me.
[00:00] <Grefter> That makes it especially essential to disect.
[00:01] <superaway> There's plenty wrong, but the overall anger level is weird. I know that's your thing and all but yeah.
[00:01] <superaway> Spoilars: Elayne is a stupid bitch in book 13, nearly gets herself killed. Other than that, I just want the books to end well.
[00:01] <Grefter> This is what happens when I have a personal investment in something and I get burned.
[00:02] <Grefter> So Elayne has the same plot she has had since book 2 still?  Cheers.
[00:02] <superaway> She pulls a stunt of similar retardation to the one she did again in 11

NOTE AFTER SUPER LEFT FOR CLASS

So Elany has the same plot she has had since book 2 still?  Cheers.


Edit - Captain K.  The bitchy thing above kind of covers it.  It isn't a matter of so much whether or not these things are resolved in this book or not.  It is the fact that they are being addressed in the second last book in the series right before the armageddon happens.  Not the time or the place for like half this shit.  It is partly me being spiteful at Jordan's writing in the last few books (which I enjoyed generally speakin as books themselves, but as pieces of a larger piece of fiction they are incredibly lacking).  These things should have been dealt with years ago instead of me reading about Egwene being manipulated with a Forsaken's super cool PMS inducing magicks or Perrin stalking Aiel for like a million years or what dress that White Ajah BITCH is wearing oh my god what a BITCH or one of countless other dead end plot threads that were introduced and resolved in the books of nothing happening.

Edit 2 - Man if they had resolved Perrin's plot 4 years ago they might have caught me at a time that I actually gave a fuck about Perrin instead of being the inane drivel that made me hate him as much as I do today.  Man he used to seem so much more intersting without the failure dead end snoozefest of the last few books.  The marriage seemed promising!  We have a character that might get a chance to mature from a young teen to a responsible adult!  OH LAWL WE FORGOT TO MAEK HIM DO ANYTHINGZ!

Edit 3 - Is this what it feels like to be Dhyer?  Nah I don't think I have been quite catty enough.  Still normal Grefter Angry here.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 02:15:58 PM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Captain K.

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Re: Books
« Reply #758 on: November 12, 2010, 02:55:11 PM »
Well you have to remember that I just started reading the series a couple of years ago.  Things are resolving at a reasonable pace for me.  If I had to wait a decade for some of these things I would probably be pissed off also.

Actually, no.  I am pissed off that they still haven't resolved Mazrim Taim.

Lady Door

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Re: Books
« Reply #759 on: November 12, 2010, 06:11:50 PM »
Yeah, these discussions are pretty much why I asked. I was surprised people generally seemed to like characters I loathe (ELAAAAAAAYNE) and hate characters I like (Perrin). For my own answer: I loathe Elayne because she is so very Mary Sue (omg super special pregnancy! and she is in love with the man who will save the world! and she's going to have perfect little twins! and she's queen! and her mommy's not dead after all! and she's a great ruler! and she's bringing kingdoms together! &c.) and, like others, I really don't give a shit about Andor. I like Perrin because he is the most human of all the characters - no fool pastiche (Mat), no god-mode/messiah/savior (Rand), no caricature of power (Elayne and then Egwene/Gawyn in a different way), no deux ex machina (Moiraine). Similar to Aviendha, who I also generally like.

The irony is that they probably have the most room to grow as characters because they are so absent from the plot and thus don't need to be shoved into plot-centric pigeonholes like the rest of the cast. So I can see why Perrin scenes would bother others. But you have no excuse to like Elayne. >_>

I reserve as much judgment as I can on epic fantasy until I've finished reading it (exception going to Sara Douglass, whose Wayfarer Redemption became unredeemable after book 2), but the points that have been made are similar to things I've thought, too.

My hesitation on drawing conclusions over why drawing all this shit out for 13 books is bad is this: I don't find it all that far-fetched that the Last Battle is going to be half what's already happened (nations being broken and rebuilt, the Aiel doing their thang, the Forsaken taking out or attempting to take out the major players/ta'veren, etc.), half the pitched battle with magic-flinging that everyone's been expecting. Don't get me wrong, leaving it at that or making the Last Battle some "the battle was in your hearts all along! <3" shit would not be even remotely okay. I'm just saying there's still plenty of potential for things to have happened the way they should, that everything was not as "drawn out" as it felt but rather was the work of carefully teasing out subtleties that otherwise would have gone overlooked.

Or maybe I'm just stupidly idealistic and too trusting.

Anyway.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 06:13:30 PM by Lady Door »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Books
« Reply #760 on: November 12, 2010, 06:41:59 PM »
I do think, aside from the lamer villain, that Perrin's stuff is resolved well enough in book 13. This doesn't excuse how flippin terrible the villain and the conflict with him is, and how many pointless chapters it gets.

Blar, spoilers from here on.

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Quote
He sometimes makes mistakes (lol at the marriage he performs in this book) but learns as he goes.

Perrin hasn't made a meaningful mistake in the series, to continue from my rant in my own post. He didn't perform a marriage well? Seriously? All his mistakes tend to be of that sort, minor relationship/dealing with people foibles. There are other things that -could- be mistakes but we're told in no uncertain terms that his ta'veren-ness will protect him from them. He has problems with leadership but the devotion of his people means this never actually matters while he learns better. I think Perrin chapters completely lack drama personally. The most exciting part of book 13's Perrin chapters wasn't his fate, but that of Galad and his men. Again, Perrin himself is reasonably likable for the reasons that have been said, but he makes for bad literature.

Quote
Her botched interrogation in this book is pretty representative of what she's been like for the whole series.

You mean, botched because she happened to do it in the middle of a prison breakout nobody could have predicted? It was daring, of course, but entirely fair as a calculated risk. It was certainly less risky than, say, sneaking into the Tower of Ghenjei, but I don't see anyone blaming Mat for that (I'm not either!). I thought it was quite clever, personally - if you have a better way of getting information out of the Black Ajah without resorting to torture I'd like to hear it. You can argue she should have posted guards right outside the room just to be safe, and that's entirely fair, but woohoo, mistakes. I'm not going to blame Elayne for not waiting to run the plan past her overprotective Warder anyway. You can! But it's obvious enough why she did it, and her own perspective justifies it quite well.

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EDIT: LD ninja! Not much to respond to, except that I'm deathly amused you'd call someone a Mary Sue after some other people in the topic are complaining that she botches things, those are kinda mutually exclusive. If it's not clear whom I consider the most Gary Stu-ish character in the book after this (although he's not really -that- bad, I prefer to save that label for those who direly need it), I'm not going to restate it now. <_<

Interestingly I think which characters you see as most human/relatable varies on your own personality type a lot, given how different people give totally different answers. I think this speaks to Jordan's strength with writing good thought processes, something I like about him a lot, and one of several reasons I will continue to hype this series despite its recurring pacing problems and the rightful rage they induce in Grefter.

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superaielman

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Re: Books
« Reply #761 on: November 12, 2010, 10:20:49 PM »
no deux ex machina (Moiraine)

That character's fate has been so heavily hinted at since before she left (And her own letters indicidate this) that I have trouble generating much of a negative opinion. It's like Mat's eye, it is hard to seriously call it a spoiler when it's been foreshadowed as much as it has.



Quote
You mean, botched because she happened to do it in the middle of a prison breakout nobody could have predicted? It was daring, of course, but entirely fair as a calculated risk. It was certainly less risky than, say, sneaking into the Tower of Ghenjei, but I don't see anyone blaming Mat for that (I'm not either!)

The actual interrogation wasn't a bad idea, but the absolute lack of preparation was headdesk worthy. Considering the last couple of books have talked about her having trouble with channeling and it becomes a really silly risk to take. She absolutely refuses to take her personal safety into account, which is insane considering she's both preggers and the ruler of a country that just got done with a protacted civil war.She could easily give birth after being converted to the shadow (Poor Tarna) is an extremely valuable hostage, etc.

And like others have said, I'm over Andor. That, like Perrin's thread, should have been long since wrapped up.

I don't think Mat thought he had a choice. (And we know he doesn't, see Min's inner monolouge about Rand losing the last battle without Moiraine.) He at least prepared as well as he could.

Character ranting time.

Perrin's leadership doesn't bother me. He's just struggling with the same things he was in book FUCKING FOUR. There's no excuse for how slowly his arc's moved, nor is there any excuse for him dicking around with Slayer. He bested Slayer in book four (again, sensing a trend?), and eh. I like the wolf dream, but it's something that should have been long since done. Perrin's such a mixed bag, because when he's good it's great (Two Rivers defense, Malden battle, cutting someone's hand off),  but when it's bad it is dogshit. (Endless Faile angst, wahhing about leadership, being a complete waste for several books).


I've said this to several people in PM, but Rand creeps the hell out of me. He has almost no humanity as it stands. He's fully become the Dragon, but where's the character that grew up over the course of the books? Cadsuene's reaction to him was dead fucking on when he talked about the Paralis net.

Also, fuck off Mazrim Taim. Related note, I'm a little stunned we haven't had a darkfriend reveal yet among the Aiel. I thought for sure one of the Wise ones would turn out to be darkfriends.


Oh. Favorite characters:

1. Nynaeve
2. Mat
3. Galad
4. Perrin? I guess.
5. Lan- Just struck a chord with me, which Rand/Egwene didn't really do this book. 

The first three jump out, and the rest is a mess of eh.

Favorite scenes: These aren't in order.

1. Verin's letter. Hahahaha.

Quote: WoT Wiki:" Although it has been speculated that Olver could be the new reincarnation of Gaidal Cain, Robert Jordan asserted that this was not the case.Jordan has confirmed that Olver has a purpose other than being a red herring however."

Cute. The scene just gave a feeling of complete and overwhelming dread. It makes perfect sense as a reveal.  The epilouge hit home with the perfect mix of OH SHIT and 'that makes sense' that I haven't had since Zane's death scene in Mistborn. 
2.  Demonic Aiel. Part two of why the epilouge was great.
3. Nynaeve's testing and her bitching out of the Aes Sedai. She's always been my favorite of the major female characters in Wot, and this scene reminded me why. She won't let the white tower be everything in her life, and she won't sacrifice either her husband or her beliefs just to be an Aes Sedai. Egwene had her best moments in the book there in that scene as well- her nudging the Aes Sedai was very wise. If Nynaeve had been casted out, you'd have destroyed the closest link the sisters have to Rand. It would have been stupid as could be.
4. Elayne/Mat. Mat has fantastic chemistry with all three of the supergirls (One of my favorite moments in book 12 was Nynaeve defending Mat to Tuon), and this was no exception.
5. Mat sacrificing his eye to save Moiraine. We knew it was coming, but I still enjoyed it.
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
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Grefter

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Re: Books
« Reply #762 on: November 12, 2010, 10:56:09 PM »
It is worth noting that the series only really started to rub me the wrong way with the pacing in the last few years as I shifted further and further away from pulp fantasy and more to other things and my harsh criticism of well all things in general honestly (that is right, I used to be forgiving!).  Just as a series it has been floundering and you can point out exactly where.  Edit - This means we needed a stronger editor presence.

Regarding half this shit happening being Tarmon gaiden, the prophecies are pretty explicit on the ways Rand will break and split the world, yeah he has been doing that, so that is definitely part of it.  They are also pretty explicit about you know, the Blight going absolutely ape shit.  There HAS to be a final battle here, one way or another.  It might be a pretty sharp short conclusive one, but there is going to be a fight of some kind going on out there.  Rand might not be there!  But well if Mat and at least Perrin are not there then there wasn't much point in having a long running plot of Rand's two compatriots becoming competent military leaders.  I think you can tell at this point just how strongly my reaction would be to THAT plot thread being a loose pointless one at this point.  Considering that was the best chapters Perrin had and one of the more fun elements of Mat as well it would prove pretty damning to the series.
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Re: Books
« Reply #763 on: November 16, 2010, 10:29:56 PM »
Scott Pilgrim 1-4:
Read the first book at DLcon, liked it, finally picked up the others.  Great stuff!  Snappy writing and art, enjoyable and intriguing characters, amazing atmospheric work, and constantly evolves and develops a fascinating story.

Scott Pilgrim 5-6:
Sucked.

Man, what... what happened?  Why is there such a massive, massive all around quality dropoff in the last two books?  They feel rushed in tone, content and art, provide a very lukewarm resolution to the story, and not only fail to capitalize on all the prior setup but actually manage negative character development in some cases.  (KNIVES, oh my god, what happened to this entire plotline...)

Anyway, the first four were awesome. 

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Re: Books
« Reply #764 on: November 18, 2010, 07:18:54 AM »
Re: Why Scott Pilgrim 5-6 sucked

Short answer: Wallace didn't get enough screentime.

Longer version: Scott stopped playing off of his friends, which is what made the series feel alive to me. Wallace in particular is the person that Scott plays best with. The romance with Ramona felt weird in the emo-induced vaccuum. The parts with Kim were decent for character-building for Scott, but the rest felt forced and wasted. Even the humorous plot of evil exes just kinda died without Scott's friends around to make it fun. Scott by himself is also too much jerk in one place to really root for him while he's fighting. Particularly against Jerk#2 Gideon.

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Re: Books
« Reply #765 on: November 19, 2010, 11:09:23 AM »
Finished Book 13.  Think it has Elayne settled into the spot of favourite character for the time being, but Rand is still fairly close, with Egwene a distant third.

Mat is still probably my least favourite of the main characters.  Partially because I have a strong emotional liking of Perrin, partially because I loath him in books 3-11, and partially because he's tied so strongly to Tuon, who I strongly dislike both personally, and as a representative of her culture (The Mat/Tuon arc in books 10/11 are pretty solidly the series lowpoint for me)

As for the book itself, much love for Rand's first appearance, Elayne's interrogation, and Avienda's big scene.

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Re: Books
« Reply #766 on: December 04, 2010, 08:57:11 PM »
Currently working through Malazan Book of the Fallen, the central struggle of which against a malevolent elder god surely owes nothing to traditional epic fantasy traditions, no sir. On book seven out of ten (final book comes in the Spring). The man is a writing robot, I swear. Puts out a thousand-page book like every year without fail. Certain writers could learn from this example! It's pretty good stuff. Some of his writing quirks irked me initially, but at least some of these have become less prominent over time. Still not without his flaws, but he's really only got better since the beginning. More people need to read this so there can be discussions about things I actually give a damn about in this thread. Anyway, will probably due a full breakdown of the series when I get caught up (in another couple months I guess).

(Man, I almost posted this in the IotD thread when I started going off on a tangent about fantasy books. I figured I may as well C+P the paragraph here since I'd already written it).

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Re: Books
« Reply #767 on: December 04, 2010, 11:04:07 PM »
I read up to book 8. Honestly, Mazalan is by far the least recommendable fantasy I've read (Note: Not the worst, just not recommendable). Truth to be told, there's some awesome stuff in it, but it just has some absurd density. Didn't start to click with me at all until book 4 I think it was (Not so coincedentally, book 4 was were we actually focused on one group continuously!)

Finished book 13. It was...decent enough, but I swear that every other viewpoint was a Perrin chapter. There was some fun stuff, but for many of the characters, there were also some obvious parts that were just kind of taking care of foreshadowing that's been hanging around for half the series or more. Fun, but not near the level of sheer awesome of book 12.

Surprised that people specifically have a problem with the interrogation, since Egwene, Mat and Perrin all do things can be easily be seen as just as foolish (And in Perrin's case, done with little planning or cunning in mind. In fact, Elayne and Egwene's preparations were fairly similar and foiled in the same ways, but Elayne's being foiled were due to an unexpected event). I guess it boils down mostly to whether one likes Elayne.

I don't mind sticking around Andor more. Unlike Perrin, Elayne's plot is generally fairly different in each book (if a bit disjointed). While we've been there a while, for what Elayne was generally trying to accomplish, it made sense.

Favorite part was definitely Aviendha's. Of everything, how this makes her act in the next book is what I'm most interested in.
...into the nightfall.

Grefter

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Re: Books
« Reply #768 on: December 04, 2010, 11:30:22 PM »
The issues with sticking around Andor aren't issues with the individual pieces of writing, but at a narrative level of the entire series.  It is just one country, the only reason we seem to be seeing shit there is because Elayne is there.  Why the fuck is Andor so damned important that we see this shit there all the time?  Why is it treated so much different than Illian which was taken by sword and fire and stays in line because of it?  Even Cairhienen didn't get that much focus and due to pulling stupid retarded bullshit THAT IS WHAT CAIRHIENEN IS NOTED FOR DOING.  We still have like the entire Borderlands untouched by the long standing narrative other than like just Saldaea who is helping Perrin because he is the heir to the throne now (?).  Rand spent like half a book in that free trading city state sort of place where you can't cast magic missiles and ... nothing was done to take that area by either side.  It is just kind of sitting there.  So much stuff is happening all over the world or SHOULD be happening all around the world but oh my gods something is happening in Andor again lets site and watch that. 

It is frustrating and really throws out the pacing.  At this point is there any reason Elayne couldn't have been say campaigning for Rand and had most of this drama happening there?  It would have mostly fit the same plot points and had someone actively working to proceed Rand's cause militarilly out of the main characters ever since Matt (who was the only one doing so for a few books...) got tied up with Tuon.  There is still presumably you know nearly open warefare with the Seanchean on multiple fronts and all we ever see of it is in prologues because none of the main characters are in a position in the narrative to be part of it.

Which kind of is going to piss me off if the idea that all these events are actually Tarmon Gaiden, because at this rate, we are going to have missed heart of it on the front lines because we were to busy focussing on the key players fucking around doing nothing for the regular people of the world while they threw their lives away for nothing.
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Re: Books
« Reply #769 on: December 05, 2010, 12:14:17 AM »
I don't really think the "front lines" is the heart of the narrative at all, personally.

Elayne's arc in book 13 (and much of book 13 itself, hi Aviendha chapters!) is very much focussed on preparing for -after- Tarmon Gaidon, which to me is at least as interesting as any preparations for it (let alone the battle itself which could easily be dull). She's working on forging a powerful nation that will have to potentially stand against the Seanchan, the Illian-Tear fusion that Rand forged, and the Borderlanders who might decide to do who-knows-what when the Blight dies down. The fact that Andor is the home country of all the core characters in the series also gives us a lot of emotional attachment to it, or it certainly should. And in particular, it is the country of Elayne's people, to have her do things unrelated to it at this point would be weird. Something about duty being one of the big themes of the series applies here. Of the other major characters Egwene has her duty to the White Tower and Perrin to the Two Rivers folk, and wouldn't you know it, we get lots of time in the White Tower (+Salidar) and quite a bit of Perrin looking after the Two Rivers folk (though not as much because they're a smaller group).  Why don't we spend more time in Illian? It's because we don't give a shit about Illian, the most important character from there is maybe the 50th most important in the series and has nothing to do with it any more anyway. It makes no sense to spend time there beyond what is needed. Ultimately the book is about its characters, and the world they live in. It is not about some big battle we already know the outcome of anyway (not that Jordan may not have put some sort of neat twist on it), or making sure every country in the world gets its "fair share" of screentime as if we might hurt their feelings if they don't.

Also if you think the point of Elayne's character is to do things for Rand I think you've really missed her point entirely! It is very clear that the two of them walk very different paths in terms of what each feels his or her duty is, which is why they interact minimally despite their feelings for each other.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Books
« Reply #770 on: December 05, 2010, 12:58:15 AM »
It's a bit reductive to say that we spent time there because one of the main characters of the series rules there, but it does kind of boil down to that. No other real reason is ever really needed! Most of the other things NEB says are spot on though. Not to mention that beyond the White Tower, Andor overall is one the major focal points for Channelers. The Kin, the Seafolk, The Black Tower, and even the Wise Ones are one point are basically bunkering down there to some degree, and a lot of Elayne's chapters have been balancing those needs in addition to Andor. I certainly do wish more had been done with them, but that's generally true of most of the character threads.
...into the nightfall.

Grefter

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Re: Books
« Reply #771 on: December 05, 2010, 01:40:12 AM »
And yet for such a focal point of chanellers, we sure as shit don't spend much time dealing with them do we?  Also note that 2 of those 4 power centres of channelers are Rand's and they are the two with the biggest presence in Andor.  Elayne and Rand may walk different paths, but Andor exists because Rand lets it.  Elayne can be taking territory for Rand and still be building up a third majour power base, remember Andor has gained Cairhienen through that exact method essentially (and also lost Two Rivers for what it is worth).  Her getting out there and taking more territory (possibly not by the sword) that is previously largely unaligned, of which there is an amazingly large amount due to the old worlds disorganised nations, is entirely doable while still building on the other factors.

The war may not be won on the front line, but there IS a war happening out there.  To not have anything out there is just incredibly callous as a story telling device (o btw 2 million ppl ded lol), but the worst thing is that it disconnects that whole component of the story.  If you have ever wondered why there has been very little sense of urgency to the story it is because of shit like that.  How much more intense were the later books when Rand stopped fucking around in a town in the middle of nowhere and he ended up on the front lines?  It felt like stuff was happening even though in the larger campaign not a great deal was won or lost there (was Rand character moments more than actual important combat plot point).  You don't need to revel in the front lines, but you do need to know they are there and relevant.

But anyway, I can appreciate that we need to have a focus on what is important to the characters and call backs to that, it is part of what makes WoT characters fairly humanised, but we also have a narrative that we are trying to get rolling here.  We have had 13 books of Andor.  Please could we move the fuck on.
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Re: Books
« Reply #772 on: December 05, 2010, 05:29:02 AM »
I read up to book 8. Honestly, Mazalan is by far the least recommendable fantasy I've read (Note: Not the worst, just not recommendable). Truth to be told, there's some awesome stuff in it, but it just has some absurd density. Didn't start to click with me at all until book 4 I think it was (Not so coincedentally, book 4 was were we actually focused on one group continuously!)

Yeah, that highlights his main problem: he likes doing Loads and Loads of Characters, but he's not always all that great at it. The best parts in the series are when we focus on a specific group of people for a long period of time. The introduction of book 4 was also the exact point when I really started being impressed by him. Not that the first three books are bad (I wouldn't recommend something that takes 3+ books to get readable), just so scattershot. But book 4? We have a consistent central character for 250 pages and suddenly all the chaff is gone (well, for that arc at least). In general, I think Erikson really got his shit together at this point, though some of his hangups linger (oh god, the keyboard mash names).

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Books
« Reply #773 on: December 05, 2010, 08:18:02 AM »
For Gref: Elayne had a number of fodder chapters, but what you describe for her doesn't really fit much at all. I'm not exactly sure where she'd go and try to conquer by whatever method even if she felt it was her perjorative, which she doesn't. Even if Andor was stable during the whole time, to the East is basically areas Rand has solidified, there's not really much of anything to the North, going South would make Perrin's chapters even more pointless, and West isn't geographically feasible. Not to mention that if Elayne being able to solidify power that quickly would feel off in terms of both backstory and generalized world setup. She's not the Dragon Reborn, she's not T'averen, and Andor had been effectively retracting in size at the beginning of the series to start with.

Also, Any country at this point in the book exists because Rand lets its, right down to the Seanchan power base and the city that's supposed to be completely protected from magic, so I'm not how that's relevant. Nor would I really call the Black Tower or Aiel channelers Rand's groups; I certainly agree that I wish we had seen more of the Black Tower in some way certainly, although Elayne has been grappling with rogue channelers in at least 2 of the books (Which makes me disagree that no time is spent on them).

Regarding the front lines, I'm not even sure there's been much action there before book 12 at the earliest. The Blight was sitting quiet for ages. We've had a character ride across most of it's distance in the last 2 books without a battle.

For Cid: Unfortunately, the fact that it took until 4 very large books to really leave any good impression is just...not remotely forgivable as a flaw in a book series. Double unfortunately, that scattershot also means that I really have trouble remembering some parts of the books having been away from them for some time (Which is...insanely rare. I'd have to do a pretty thorough checking to be sure, but I can only of maybe...two other longish fantasy series that left that little of a comprehensive impression. Maybe. Both shorter series, somewhat fodderish, and read less recently). When I last reread the series I probably could have engaged in discussion, but that was...at least 2 years ago, maybe 3.
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Re: Books
« Reply #774 on: December 05, 2010, 03:37:15 PM »
Yeah, that's understandable. I never thought the first three books were actually bad (otherwise I wouldn't have kept reading), just that I usually came away with an impression of "Yeah, I guess this is an okay way to waste my time." I wouldn't forgive a series that took four books to do anything remotely interesting; first three at least had Kruppe/Coltaine/Envy&co. to keep me entertained. What really gets me down on the earlier books is that Erikson spends too much time outright describing how characters feel about things, which is an approach that doesn't work for me at all. Eventually he largely tosses this out for internal monologuing/increased banter quota, which shows us the same things in a much more intimate manner. First-time writer flaws are abundant early on; it's pretty clear that he hadn't tried writing anything on this scale before Deadhouse Gates. It's not that things didn't happen in the first three books--plenty of big events did, it's just that most of them prove less memorable than Tehol Beddict chasing chickens around his house because Erikson hadn't entirely figured out what he was on about until he'd been writing for a while.

For all that it probably sounds like I'm knocking the guy here, I really can't understate how awesome he can be when he's firing on all cylinders. It might help that he seems to have the same perspective of humanity as I do.