Author Topic: Season 49, Week 2  (Read 6396 times)

Nitori

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2009, 06:56:26 PM »
Godlike:

Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (ACF) vs KOS-MOS (XS) - ACF Ceci is just so sad
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS) - Hi Seymour! Bye Seymour!

Middle:

Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF)

Light:

Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7) - Suikoden 1 always wins
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - SHINING FORCE always wins
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SnowFire

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2009, 08:43:45 PM »
Beatrix: This issue is really messy thanks to FF9's damage cap.  It'd be impossible for her to break the curve as much as she does early late, which is the problem - in most games, you could assume that they stayed that broken, but FF9's system insures for a fact that that isn't the case.  That said I do agree that people should be scaled against the time you face them.  FE7's Lundgren is, for his stated level, a total wuss at endgame - but you don't fight him at endgame, you fight him early on.  Not sure there is a good answer to this aside from "force Bea to use her boss form."

Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Inclined to lean KOS-MOS?  Cecilia's speed isn't great to begin with and it's getting ruined.  Also XS3 KOS has a fairly clean win, I think, Blood Dancer->OHKO and no amount of buffing saves Cecilia from it.

Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - I'd just like to point out that "LOL Healing" isn't a good answer here, as this fight clearly takes place in the SO3 battle system and Healing would force Nel to stand still and get smashed by Fayt's attacks.  Inclined to think Nel anyway, though - they're both pretty fast at scampering around the field, but I think Fayt's long range attacks or attempts to get into short range (Side Kick) are generally worse than Nel's.  She can probably harry him from a distance with stuff like Ice Daggers, while Fayt's Dimension Door or Air Raid is too telegraphed vs. a human opponent who can just run away.  (And as for Ethereal Blast, uh, yeah, no, that's not hitting ever.)
 
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC) - Okay, for the record I voted DNR for Ena, but...  if she's using her boss form, there's no way she can move.  I know that movement is usually thrown out in the DL, but this is more like "how the battle works."  In-game you can slaughter her without ever getting touched, and if there was a boss in another game that couldn't hurt you unless you used short-range attacks, it'd clearly be held against them as well.  So yeah.  Ena almost always loses against someone with a spammable ranged attack for me.

Except for Lucia.  Lucia's damage for Atomic Burn is listed at a mighty ~250 or so damage in the stat topic against an average of 680 (!!).  And Lucia's lightning damage is EVEN WORSE than Atomic Burn.  I guess you could use Lucia on late Disc 2 and throw out her final Zophar form, where the damage average wouldn't be as obscenely high, and Lucia's damage herself needs to be factored into the new average to bring it down a bit, but the point remains.  Lucia can't really do damage.  And Ena's resistance is stupid, at least the boss form - good mages like Soren who can do 15-20 damage to randoms can only do 1-3 (perhaps doubled to 6) to her, and if you were unlucky might easily tink.  So none of Lucia's damage can even break Ena's resistance, so no damage doubling anyway.  If you throw out subtractive defense, then Ena's Resistance is still functionally 80% magic resistance, so Lucia is only doing 1-2 FE9 damage a round - easily soaked by Renewal. 

So yeah.  Nobody ever does damage.  Since Ena is a boss and if you refuse to finish her off in-game, you don't advance, and Lucia is a PC, I'm tiebreaking for Ena here.  Fail, Lucia.

Against the PC form (which I never got so I wouldn't allow anyway)...  Lucia starts spamming her defense booster.  Lunar2 defense buffs wore down pretty quickly, but were awesome while they lasted and stacked, so I think Lucia can survive Ena's assault by spamming healing, with the only worries coming toward the end of Ena's transformation when the buff has declined.  Then Lucia needs to actually kill Ena while she's back in human form - if she stalls against PC Ena, eventually Ena will get a crit, or if you really respect the defense buff / disrespect Ena damage, two crits in a row.  Problem is, even human Ena has great Resistance (against a higher average though).  She probably STILL just shrugs off even Atomic Burn for 0 damage.  So Ena wins again, though more cleanly this time.

Also I'm inclined to force Lucia to use AI anyway since that's how she works in-game, which guarantees a loss.  (Though Lucia-on-AI needs an immediate downgrade to Light.)

Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8) - Kornell for heavy.  Kornell Buster cancels (as does his basic physical).  Personally I'd say that this turns off Fire Emblem counters, as in-game a cancel sends the character back to square 1 in which they can't really do anything.  Sure something pre-emptive like Hamedo or Flash would beat it, but after-the-fact counters don't seem in flavor.  Also I give Caellach last strike since he's another non-moving FE boss, but once Kornell engages then he's normal since Caellach is at least smart enough to have a ranged attack.  So yeah, WOW->Buster->Buster.  No way Caellach is killing in one hit unless he gets a crit.  Heck, Kornell might not even need the WOW.

Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9) - Remind me why Eiko would even bother with Mini?  She's got a very very solid 2HKO off Holy here, and even if Volke is doubling, I'm not sure he 4HKOs, which is what he needs.  I guess Volke might evade, so sure, Mini -> 2 Holies then, but it seems like Volke needs to get lucky a bit too fast here.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 10:11:34 PM by SnowFire »

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2009, 09:43:42 PM »
All Grandia 3 techs are technically infinite range, so anyone who hypes a melee boss like Caellach countering them needs to be shot anyway.

SnowFire

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2009, 09:56:12 PM »
I'm pretty sure that Caellach has a range-2 weapon (checking: Yes, he's got a Tomahawk).  Since Longbows / Long Range magic is rarer in FE8 than in FE7, I'd be inclined to discount it and let range-2 people counter anything that isn't explicitly hyped as super-long range.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2009, 10:07:52 PM »
Quote
Kornell Buster cancels

I feel inclined to point out that cancelling doesn't prevent G3's own counters (Revenge). That said if you wanted to translate it to stopping other counters due to its in-game worth I wouldn't object, you can argue Revenge works differently due to the lag.

Also did not realise that move could cancel. Dang.

Quote
Interesting match.  Both of them should be in Heavy, in my interpretation.

... Volke, Heavy? By your very own post, he might fail to 4HKO Eiko, which says much about his damage. He might also be 2HKOed by Eiko's averagish damage, because his durability isn't hot. Volke's closer to Light than Heavy. (Don't agree with Eiko either, but there's more of an argument there.)

Unless you meant Kornell (easily Heavy with Iron Fist) and Caellach (could make it with good boss respect).

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SnowFire

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2009, 10:11:25 PM »
That bit of nonsense has been edited out.  It was from something only mildly related that I C&Ped into the text window (earlier thoughts on Kornell vs. Caellach) and didn't notice was still there.  Nah, I'm not waving a Volke for Heavy flag.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 10:13:09 PM by SnowFire »

Rozalia

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2009, 10:12:46 PM »
Happens as soon as the tentacles are down. Which is from turn 1 to some people, either due to not allowing him to start with them (because no other boss gets to start with support) or due to not allowing them at all.

Main body can use MT stuff twice. Sweep doesn't matter, he doesn't want that here. The ST tentacle physicals are stronger and can target the mortiphasms.

Wait so sweep can't target the mortiphasms? Anyway whats the point of attacking with the tentacles anyway. Two Mt puts Seymour in water and the tentacles switch two of the nodes to Thunder. Magic smack down afterwards kills heat dead.

Regardless of how you see things I don't really see how people can hype Heats damage. Its barely 2HKO damage in game and thats with the Infernal roar tosses in.
Seymour can just heal himself till the cows come home or the wheel lands in the right place. Whatever comes first

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2009, 10:24:43 PM »
Heat's damage is well over "barely" 2HKO when multiple actions are summed, and it becomes a very high 2HKO indeed with the opening ice weakness hit. Seymour Omnis' healing is around 5% of his own HP, if you even allow it. There's no way Heat isn't 20HKOing him, so no hyping that.

I'm not sure how I feel about Heat's tentacles messing with the mortiphasms, though. They can't be hit by melee. Not sure how to view that in this fight.

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superaielman

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2009, 10:44:28 PM »
That bit of nonsense has been edited out.  It was from something only mildly related that I C&Ped into the text window (earlier thoughts on Kornell vs. Caellach) and didn't notice was still there.  Nah, I'm not waving a Volke for Heavy flag.

Caellach's counters are enough for Heavy you think? The lack of status resistance really seems to hold him back there to me (He also loses to good sluggers, even assuming say PC durability). MT damage is common enough to prevent those counters from really boosting him up into another division.
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SnowFire

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2009, 10:47:51 PM »
Yes, I agree, which is why I didn't post it (or so I thought) and rewrote my comments, and it was a sheer accident that was still there.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2009, 11:01:33 PM »
Caellach does have status resistance if forts impart it! I keep meaning to check if they do, like gates/thrones. But lazy, and strangely it's never come up.

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Hyper Inferno

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2009, 11:41:51 PM »
Caellach does have an Iron Rune, so he's immune to criticals at least.

Meeplelard

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2009, 01:51:03 AM »
Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9): Don't see her OHKOing so there you go.  Now, if Beatrix was OHKOing with mid game skills (instead of stuff you get end game)?  I might be willing to accept that a bit more.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Yeah, she goes first and wins.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3): Think the Durability edge is more in his favor than Lavos has offense.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS): Seymour wants Turn 1 Lighting...

Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1): Saturos Respect is lacking.
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5): Zeno is one of the few Heavies who is better at the slugfesting thing than Kevin is.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Isn't Nel better at like everything compared to Fayt in a duel?
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3): Poo hates status.

Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC): AHAHAHAHA no.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8): Kneejerk.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Kneejerk.
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF): Just kind of outdoes Florina in most ways.

Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7): She gets the Fire Rune to me.
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2): Can't vote!
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC): Isn't Alenia.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3): Peco > Suikoscrubs.
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VySaika

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2009, 02:40:37 AM »
Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - I scale temps against when they leave at thier final appearance in the party(so no, not hyping Temp Rune form or any other nonsense like that). Feels kinda weird to me to basically create an endgame form for temps out of whole cloth to use for the DL.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS) - Goes first, wins.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3) - Lavos respect checking in.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS) - I allow him to start with the tentacles, so...kneejerking Heat here.

Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1) - Saturos basically has...exactly the tools he needs to win this.
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5) - Outslugs. Against Kevin, that's pretty damn impressive.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Gut says her tricks and speed win out over his power advantage.
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3) - EB hates status.

Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC) - No vote, go Ena.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8) - I'll buy him just out slugging.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9) - Unsure. A bit more respect for Volke and less for Eiko then most makes this one sketchy.
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF) - Doen't he have a move that specifically does more damage to opponents in the air? Or was that PC Zed?

Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7) - Burnination.
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - Doesn't she manage a OHKO here?
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC) - Alenia.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3) - Mukumuku.
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Rozalia

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2009, 02:42:30 AM »
Heat's damage is well over "barely" 2HKO when multiple actions are summed, and it becomes a very high 2HKO indeed with the opening ice weakness hit. Seymour Omnis' healing is around 5% of his own HP, if you even allow it. There's no way Heat isn't 20HKOing him, so no hyping that.

I'm not sure how I feel about Heat's tentacles messing with the mortiphasms, though. They can't be hit by melee. Not sure how to view that in this fight.

So damage, hp and so on are all scaled proberly for bosses, yet healing isn't (Making it near enough completely pointless unless its a healing spell like the one found in Valkyrie profile)? Seymours healing is good enough to keep himself in the fight. As for heats damage I was including all his actions, his damage just doesn't impress me very much.

Thanks for bring that up. I'd completely forgoten about the whole can't be hit by melee unless they are wakka's balls. How can Heat survive then? Lets try this.

*Heat starts without tentacles*
Heat uses Infernal roar and some other Mt move
*Wheel switchs to water*
Seymour if he needs it can heal a bit and the other wateraga spells smack into Heat.
Heat needs to use two Mt moves
Seymour heals more then Heat did.
Two more Mt moves
healing
Mt spells
Healing (Seymour is now at full health)
Mt Moves
Four water spells go to Heat
Repeat.

Now while true Heat can instead decide to not use 2 Mt moves it really doesn't matter. Using one mostly puts him in a bad area as the next node is water while the one after that is thunder.
He can avoid the thunder but not the water.
If Heat summons the tentacles then the fight goes on a bit further but it doesn't matter as the result is the same.

I doubt most would share my view on this fight but I didn't want to be the only one voting for seymour without giving some sort of explanation :P. Not like any of this matters though, Heat has already won.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2009, 03:13:11 AM »
Quote
So damage, hp and so on are all scaled proberly for bosses, yet healing isn't (Making it near enough completely pointless unless its a healing spell like the one found in Valkyrie profile)?

If Seymour healed himself for 4000 (he doesn't in-game, but assume he did), it would be a complete waste of a turn. It doesn't seem an unfaithful DL translation to say the same happens here.

Even if you want to compare it to average damage... that's something like 10000 at that point in FFX. So he's healing 40% of an average shot, by that logic. Heat still easily does more than that, even with his damage halved by Seymour's MDef.

And yeah, VP Heal is one of the few boss healing moves that ISN'T a wasted turn.

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Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2009, 05:35:18 AM »
I thought the only moves that could change the wheels were singletarget ones aimed directly at the appropriate wheel, while MT moves functioned just like ST attacks directed at seymour.

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2009, 08:12:23 PM »
MF's right.  MT attacks don't change the wheel from what I remember seeing on a playthrough video.


Seymour -despises- starting out in such a position that half his elements do nothing to Heat.  He likewise despises the fact that Fire(starting) meets Gelid Torrent, and Ice(second phase, IIRC) can and will meet twin Agidyne spam.  Really, Heat seems to spoil mostly on elements alone.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2009, 04:50:52 AM »
I thought Seymour's Second Phase is Lightning.  I remember attacking one of the wheels and it spun to Lightning.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2009, 05:05:07 AM »
No, lightning's last. The wheels can be spun in reverse order. (forget whether physicals or magical attacks do it)

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alanna82

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2009, 05:06:09 AM »
I dont know Angela, so I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure Poo starts with an item in his inventory that immunes or at least resists Brainshock. I see some people saying Angela wins due to confusion and Brainshock is the Earthbound equivalent of confusion.

If she has other status or I am wrong about the what the item does, ignore my ramblings. The item is the "Brain Stone"

Edit: none of the faqs at game faqs agree what the Brain Stone does. Some say it resists all status PSI and some say it only resists certain status. I'm pretty sure the in game description says it prevents brainshock.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 05:17:20 AM by alanna82 »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2009, 05:17:37 AM »
Angela has many statuses, but Confusion isn't one, so no - she's winning with Stone or Freeze or Silence. I think Poo's the one who is supposed to win by confusion, but you can't beat Angela with status.

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alanna82

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Re: Season 49, Week 2
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2009, 05:20:32 AM »
ah okay, misunderstood Dyers post then. Thought he was refering to Angela with the confusion comment. Yeah EB doesnt have freeze and stone (well I guess it has Stone (diamond), but nothing even blocks it)

My mistake ^_^