Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!) (Read 410691 times)

Laggy · « **Reply #1700 on:** March 30, 2011, 11:21:02 PM »

I am always trolling for game logs so be as verbose as you want (that extends to whoever else is playing as well).

The LP thing is more to testdrive the next version which I will repeatedly poke Richard into finalizing (though you can certainly change versions mid-playthrough and probably should; most relevant changes won't be apparent until Chapter 4, unless you're running into problems with C1 randoms).

NinjaWeazel · « **Reply #1701 on:** March 30, 2011, 11:32:34 PM »

Quote from: Laggy on March 30, 2011, 11:21:02 PM

...unless you're running into problems with C1 randoms).

C1 randoms are pretty brutal, but that is mostly due to 1) monsters got much trickier & a bit tougher, 2) low-tier equipment has always sucked. I literally have never taken Guts off of Ramza due specifically to Wish and Heal.

Tenchu: Stealth Edit

How did you guys make Agrias' Split/Crush Punch usable without a sword? Because eventually I would love to be able to have that requirement removed completely from her, T.G Cid, Meliadoul, & Beowulf (pretty sure Beowulf needs a sword for his magic, could be wrong). Destroy Spear? All Axeskill? Don't mind if I do!

Laggy · « **Reply #1702 on:** March 31, 2011, 01:29:56 AM »

There's a flag that basically says "this ability can only be used with a Sword or a Knight Sword" if toggled on abilities.

We only removed it for those two because they're below-average swordskills compared to the rest; if all swordskills were usable by all weapons then Harps would suddenly be the best swordskill weapons and do obscene damage. >_> If that's your thing then sure.

NinjaWeazel · « **Reply #1703 on:** March 31, 2011, 01:45:38 AM »

that is totally my thing. Although less with harps and more with axes & spears. I'm not looking to break them into the most ridiculous things ever, but to be able to use them outside of sword & knightsword only.

superaielman · « **Reply #1704 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:18:27 AM »

Quote from: Laggy on March 31, 2011, 01:29:56 AM

There's a flag that basically says "this ability can only be used with a Sword or a Knight Sword" if toggled on abilities.

We only removed it for those two because they're below-average swordskills compared to the rest; if all swordskills were usable by all weapons then Harps would suddenly be the best swordskill weapons and do obscene damage. >_> If that's your thing then sure.

It'd still require being a Bard, not to mention that only Cid could do that. I'd tenatively expect holy swordsman to beat out bard as a carrier in that case. I'd be Agrias would get a lot of milage out of equip axe in C2! (+3 attack and +1PA on a coral sword) except that in C3, that advantage fizzles when you get access to the Defender. I don't think it would alter balance much. You're still competing with the excellent Knight Swords, and some of the money weapons are poach only and C4 poaching to boot, with the exception of the scorpion tail. Of course, you can always go the ninja route and get that effect now as is. It'd make Geomancers and Dancers a stronger carrier choice for Agrias off the top of my head as well.

That all said, my kneejerk that making swordskills not require a sword across the board is weird. One of the few checks on them is that they do require one of those rare, shiny knight swords or to use equip sword/one of the few classes that can use swords as is.

Mokura the 3rd · « **Reply #1705 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:37:43 AM »

Alright, registered so I could make some points more clear. I'm a friend of the Weazel, and the one that's trying to unsword the Sword Skills. No, it's not a serious patch (both for vanilla and LFT) because I'm doing all sorts of other silly things like the ability to Two Sword guns. (It's half personal amusement, half learning about how to hack FFT.) Anyway, to give you a bit of detail about what's gone on so far in my work:

Using FFTPatcher, all skills that bore the checkmark "Required: Sword" or "Required: Materia Blade" got unchecked.
Running patched LFT from there, an Agrias unit that did not already have Split Punch or Crush Punch had "Holy Sword" greyed out when she didn't have a Knight/sword equipped.
However, after learning one of Split Punch or Crush Punch, the Holy Sword menu was accessible with any weapon, a bow in my testing, for example.

What I'd like to know is if there's a bit of ASM hackery you need to do to the Skill Set or Skill Menu in order for it to work with anything, regardless of what you already have learned. This means Holy Sword/Magic Sword/Destroy Sword/All Swordskill, and maybe the enemy Sword Skills if I feel loopy enough.

P.S. Thanks for your work on this hack, it's given me an excuse to play through this awesome game once more.

Laggy · « **Reply #1706 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:50:38 AM »

This may sound like a really dumb question, but one should always ask the obvious - you did apply your changes in FFTPatcher by patching the ISO afterwards, correct?

The case scenario I'm interested in seeing is having some other ability learned (say Stasis Sword) when that ability has been patched to not require a sword, and seeing if Holy Sword is accessible then.

There was no magic ASM tricks used for Crush Punch/Split Punch, so the functionality should be entirely within that flag.

Mokura the 3rd · « **Reply #1707 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:52:37 AM »

Quote from: Laggy on March 31, 2011, 02:50:38 AM

This may sound like a really dumb question, but one should always ask the obvious - you did apply your changes in FFTPatcher by patching the ISO afterwards, correct?

The case scenario I'm interested in seeing is having some other ability learned (say Stasis Sword) when that ability has been patched to not require a sword, and seeing if Holy Sword is accessible then.

There was no magic ASM tricks used for Crush Punch/Split Punch, so the functionality should be entirely within that flag.

I should have, although I'll go back and test it again to make sure. Also my scenario above of learning-a-Punch-first made the edited Stasis (un)Sword work fine.

Edit: Apparently I got scatterbrained and non-Punch skills, once unticked, work just fine with a Bow, once you actually learn them. Thanks anyway!

Laggy · « **Reply #1708 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:56:59 AM »

Right, but what you should check is to see if you have only Stasis Sword learned (or Lightning Stab/Holy Splodey) and if the Holy Sword skillset (or whatever skillset) is accessible (as opposed to having Crush or Split Punch learned).

I do find it strange the game has that check at all. I kind of presumed it'd only toss that at you if you either a) had nothing learned or b) all the abilities you had learned required a sword.

Mokura the 3rd · « **Reply #1709 on:** March 31, 2011, 03:20:34 AM »

Quote from: Laggy on March 31, 2011, 02:56:59 AM

Right, but what you should check is to see if you have only Stasis Sword learned (or Lightning Stab/Holy Splodey) and if the Holy Sword skillset (or whatever skillset) is accessible (as opposed to having Crush or Split Punch learned).

I do find it strange the game has that check at all. I kind of presumed it'd only toss that at you if you either a) had nothing learned or b) all the abilities you had learned required a sword.

Works with only Stasis Sword learned, with Stasis Sword unsworded in FFTPatcher. I was probably being a moron at some point and forgot something.

Laggy · « **Reply #1710 on:** March 31, 2011, 03:38:30 AM »

It happens to all of us at some point.

Let me know how stuff pans out for you, thanks for taking the time to drop by and post. Always cool to see new faces.

NinjaWeazel · « **Reply #1711 on:** March 31, 2011, 11:11:33 PM »

Hm. Poking around at things further, I's also like to put forward a couple of suggestions for Agrias tweaks. Not going to propose a universal stripping of 'requires sword' from her skills, because I can very much see where you guys are coming from on that. It does make them pretty open to abuse, and I'm stripping it for myself based solely on the fact that I like the option to use it with other melee weapons. But I would like to see her get a few tweaks to her Holy Knight job stats to give her a physical boost. Compare her to Meliadoul & the Knight job.

Code: [Select]

Class      HPC MPC SpC PAC MAC HPM MPM SpM PAM MAM Move Jump C-Ev%
Agrias     10 11   100  50 50  140 100 100 100 100  4     3   25
Meliadoul  10 15   100  39 50  175 175 105 120 90   4     3   12
Knight     10 15   100  40 50  120 80  90  120 80   4     3   10

She gets smoked right out the gate in PA growth *and* multiplier by both jobs. Meliadoul also blows her out of the water for HP and MP multipliers and gets a slightly better Speed multiplier, but that's not too much of an issue because I absolutely grant that you get her about a chapter and a half later, so she should be better in some ways. The biggest thing I would like to see done is something like increasing her PA growth from 50 to maybe 45, tweak her MAC up to 45 also, and boosting the PA Multiplier up to 115 or 120. She already has a reduced PA growth thanks to being a female unit. This keeps her worse than Meliadoul (and TG Win) as far as raw physical stats, but gives her a small physical boost while keeping her niche as a slightly better spellcaster thanks to her better MP growth and MA multiplier. Meliadoul still smokes her with that MP multiplier, but now that she has some destroy sword moves that require MP, I'm not too worried about that. (Looking at Orlandus base stats I am actually not sure if Agrias beats him out as spellcaster even with this tweak, thanks to his 42 MAC.)

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #1712 on:** March 31, 2011, 11:49:36 PM »

In fairness, I would argue that Agrias is in the running for most useful non-Ramza character in the LFT maingame. Joining something like 20 battles before any other swordskiller gives her lots of time to build up with things like Attack Up, a decent reaction, and so on. This makes me a little cautious about improving her in general.

Still, Holy Knight itself is kinda underwhelming (though far less so now that it has 4 move). It pretty much means she's sub-optimal while you build her primary skills (though to be fair, this happens more quickly than it did in vanilla). I found this could be somewhat circumvented by getting Attack Up before any of the more expensive swordskills, but YMMV there. Holy Knight could be improved some, but I don't think it should be as good stat-wise as Geomancer, which Meliadoul and Cid's base classes are aside from MA (and need to be due to their later joining time). Granted, Holy Knight also lacks hats/clothes, so even if it got a bit of a stat pump it wouldn't be as good as the other classes in this discussion anyway.

Grefter · « **Reply #1713 on:** March 31, 2011, 11:59:43 PM »

I will play the worlds tiniest violin for one of the better skillsets in the game (even though it is overshadowed by broken versions of the same skillset) that is available early in the game having bad stats while it builds up. Agrias plays wonderfully with carrier classes. This is fine.

Let other broken characters have overwhelmingly strong base classes. It is neat having a Sword Skill character that plays well with more generic classes. Character differentiation through more than just raw multipliers.

NinjaWeazel · « **Reply #1714 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:01:29 AM »

Yeah, Holy Knight being so underwhelming in the aftergame is my biggest problem. I love her to death and she is useful, but she is completely overshadowed by the other swordskillers. Yeah she does get a jump on them as far as learning abilities since she comes so much earlier, but she drops off in the aftergame like crazy, and her base class stats are just... bad. I'd just like to see her Holy Knight get some boosts that will reduce the gap between her and the other swordskillers. I mean cripes, it's worse than generic squire. I thought the entire point of the edits to generic Squire was to make it a decent option for generics thanks to both a solid skillset and good stats... Plus the tweaks to Rafa and Malak's base jobs and stats, and the changes to Mustadio to make them better in their base jobs... I would just like to see Holy Knight get a few small stat tweaks to make it more sustainable in the long run. She'll still never compete with the base classes of TG and Mel, but at least she wouldnt be so markedly inferior in the aftergame.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #1715 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:12:34 AM »

I don't think she really gets overshadowed until the aftergame, Mel just can't catch up in the maingame and even Cid feels unlikely to surpass a well-built Agrias.

Granted, she does get a bit of a raw deal in the aftergame. I'm unsure how to suggest improving this without breaking her utterly in the maingame.

Laggy · « **Reply #1716 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:39:05 AM »

It's already a huge struggle to get people to use the likes of Meliadoul in the aftergame. Agrias being a C2 pickup has been always her strongest advantage point and this isn't going to change. I'm not very keen on designing characters that absolutely need to pan out for aftergame use (especially since SO MANY characters are already regulated to -only- aftergame use: Beowulf, Reis, Cloud, and Worker 8 all fall under this, and both Meliadoul and Orlandu clock in during the middle of C4. Thus, these characters should have marked advantages to make up for a complete lack of development beforehand.)

If you're planning to do a thoroughly optimized aftergame party then yes, using Agrias may not be for you, but she performs solidly within the entirety of the maingame and there are a heck of a lot of other characters who routinely get much less exposure. She's not in any danger of not being used over the other swordskillers as a general rule of thumb.

Not to mention that Holy Knight has never been what Agrias is about. You stick her in Geo or Knight and go home, as opposed to the much later entries who NEED their base jobs to be worth using or no one's going to even bother with the investment.

NinjaWeazel · « **Reply #1717 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:54:03 AM »

Fair enough. I just guess her base job being so markedly underwhelming statwise has always offended my delicate sensibilities. And I dont want to come off as saying she isn't a good character or something. Because she absolutely is. Maingame she hardly ever leaves my party. I just think that a few small tweaks to Holy Knight stats would make her more viable in the aftergame, as well as help offset the fact that she's a female unit with a strictly PA-based unique job (a problem also faced by Meliadoul, except her base PA growth is somewhere up around 'freight train' level and I'm not even trying to boost Agrias up beyond Archer level).

Laggy · « **Reply #1718 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:12:20 AM »

On paper, I tentatively wouldn't have an issue with making Holy Knight growths more comparable to Squire or Knight, no. I don't want to touch the mults, though (Holy Knight shouldn't be a class you're encouraged to stay in, other than to learn Holy Sword).

Bear in mind that growths honestly have very, very little impact in the long run, so it isn't really going to meaningfully change her in the aftergame.

Musty got the treatment he did because, well, Snipe kind of blows and there's not much reason for him to stay in Engineer *period* originally (you basically use Musty because you like him). The first thing you did after picking up Arm Aim was basically ferry over to Chemist where he's so much better. >_>

NinjaWeazel · « **Reply #1719 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:26:27 AM »

that's a reasonable compromise, I reckon. We're approaching it from different perspectives where I would like it to be a good job to sit in and you disagree. Since you're the man doing all the work, you win.

And yeah I absolutely agree that old Mustadio was about as useless as... well he was pretty useless. New Mustadio however is absolutely becoming my primary thief. His new speed blows my poor little mind.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #1720 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:39:19 AM »

Haha, arguing with Laggy is fun~

Laggy · « **Reply #1721 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:48:53 AM »

You just say that because you almost never do it~

Changed Agrias' PA and MA growths to 40 and 45 respectively.

NinjaWeazel · « **Reply #1722 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:49:22 AM »

Yeah I am trying to avoid coming off as a real hardnose pain in the ass, cuz that's totally not my intention. This mod is totally awesome, I'm just looking to see if I can contribute with some (possibly) fresh ideas.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #1723 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:51:50 AM »

I am 100% lazy and you know it, Laggy-chu. Don't worry, Laggy like fresh ideas and we don't think you're an ass. You're pretty cool to me!

Nephrite · « **Reply #1724 on:** April 01, 2011, 02:37:18 AM »

Quote from: Ciato on April 01, 2011, 01:51:50 AM

I am 100% lazy and you know it, Laggy-chu. Don't worry, Laggy like fresh ideas and we don't think you're an ass. You're pretty cool to me!

Just cite that Laggy is a misogynist for making Agrias not very good (despite Meliadoul now being good).

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Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!) (Read 410691 times)