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Messages - Random Consonant

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26
Unranked Games / Re: Trails to Reverie - Bad Stat Topic Ideas: The Game
« on: October 21, 2023, 01:24:07 AM »
Pretty sure what I saw said MQ boosts were additive as well.

Magic-based crafts should still be ATS vs ADF yeah.

500 U-Mats/PC seems fine enough as a baseline to me.

27
Unranked Games / Re: Trails to Reverie - Bad Stat Topic Ideas: The Game
« on: October 18, 2023, 11:05:16 PM »
The basic damage formula seems similar enough to Zero-CS2's from what I've been able to gather except for the fact that a lot of the damage increasers (including crits and I think the 200 CP bonus for S-Crafts but NOT brave orders) are additive rather than multiplicative.  I don't -think- they messed with the power mults but if they did it should be easy enough to catch.  Anyways crits are +50%, break (if break ever ends up being relevent who knows) is +20%, the characters with magical normal attacks use STR against ADF with them (this includes Mr. Postgame).  Those are the main differences that I can think of, anyways.

28
Discussion / Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« on: October 17, 2023, 04:39:15 AM »
Quote from: Tide
Oh hey, Random responded. Awesome. I love having actual discussions and stuff. Responses and thoughts:

It's nice being able to talk about things about the game that aren't HELL MODE G.

Quote from: Tide
I keep forgetting Burning Heart exists because the rest of Lloyd's build is just pretty unimpressive. His locked nodes suck and his crafts outside of Zero Breaker and Burning hearts are eeeeeeeeh. Like seriously, ST damage for 80 CP is not exactly great shakes. He's the worst of the 3 Protags - I just waffle on how good he is. His BOs are worse than both of Rean's and C's and I find him in some very stiff competition when you start comparing the As. But between B or C tier... sure I have no qualms of him being a B Tier PC. The biggest issue he has is that his best role (if you want to call it that) is tanking and he gets overtaken in that department largely by Tita, so he's usually doing a secondary role or something.

I think this is reasonable enough for the most part, if he has an argument for A tier it's very much based on One Weird Trick that he's not even all that well set up to exploit.  I don't really think 2 Earth/1 Fire is *that* bad

Quote
So of the 3, Randy was the one I used the most primarily due to Crimson Gale's easy CP maintenance early on. Later when everyone gets there stuff, I feel like Agate is the weakest of 3 and Gaius becomes the strongest because as you note Absolute Delay is pretty funky - especially if you start stacking Delays on him. So...moving Randy down to B tier with his other compatriots is probably fine with me as well. He probably has the best BO of the 3, but yeah, that's a relatively minor boon since in the grand scheme of things, Raging Fire is only a 5% damage difference outside of the buff and I don't find the buff on BO from Agate to be that meaningful (at least for sweeping...Emblem starts with All Stats Up L, which is enough for what you're going for).

Reasonable, Randy does do a pretty good job at randosweeping and I'd agree that's he'smore attractive than Agate in that regard.

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Yeah agreed. Absolute Guard is a really good back door escape option and both girls work in this role. The issue is, I don't think either is quite a B Tier PC because other than that, they are pretty inter-changeable with other casters. And yeah, eating a S-craft is generally not something you want to do, but even in the event you don't an Absolute Guard BO ready, stuff like Elliot's Sapphirl Symphony exists and that cuts off 70% damage and gives Regen. That's enough of a save most of the time if needed. I think Tio is slightly better because her craft set is a bit more focused whereas Altina always has the weird flurry that she always has, but that's largely preference at this point.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I don't think this is better than Elliot the one-man panic button in the grand scheme of things but I also don't think the difference is that great.

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So this is just me liking the bell curve to be symmetrical. Ie: Top of S tier should match the bottom of the lowest tier. So if I have 4 on top, then 4 should be on the bottom with the majority of the cast lumped somewhere in the middle. And the issue then is, if Alisa isn't S tier, who replaces her in that? And it's pretty hard to think of something else who does. Because yeah, Heavenly Gift alone isn't S tier...but the rest of Alisa's stat mix is pretty solid and she's a good caster, which is better of the two default roles if you had to choose. Again, while I didn't order the tiers when initially grouping them, she's probably on the tail end for sure.

Fair!  I'd probably agree with Alisa in S if I were rating on a curve myself.

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I got a lot of use out of her BO during Chapter 2. It's the combo of slight heal + 50% Evade boost for a notable duration. Needing only 50% Evade to reach 100% helps a lot. Like Elise gets outclassed pretty bad late - but compared to say Lechter, she definitely feels better than him! Maybe I'll use them more to get a better feel. Lechter is definitely more mage oriented though because his crafts in general are pretty sketchy.

I think this is mostly just a question of offense vs. defense, since Lechter's BO is +40% damage with 2-turn Insight and Elise is 50% evade with some HP/CP healing.  Rean C2 probably just makes you care more because of that fight that throws a Gospel at you and doesn't let you use Elliot or Altina.

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Yep - no problem with this either. Another case of not sure if she's in the higher or lower one. In the end I went with B because I'm pretty sure you can do some neat things with Concealing Wind. Just people think of her as Evade tank and call it shut. Again, will likely experiment a bit.

Well this is mostly me autopiloting on a Fie vs Rixia comparison and well, Rixia has her own stealth thing too!

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Weak is cool! Just 60 CP isn't exactly cheap like Towa's 20 CP Weakener. The other issue is that since it's a craft, it means you can't use Bells to soften the recovery and turns spent where you are using it are turns Nadia isn't casting...which runs contrary to her unique accessory. Which speaking of, maybe it's just me, but I also didn't find it super valuable. Like I kept it cause it was unique, but if you had the choice between raising Speed or improving Cast speed, the former is usually better because it helps with the recovery of various moves and skills. On top of that, she's paired with C and if you are using Fast Cast strats, the value of that accessory diminishes because you can't get lower than 1 Clocktick for any casting. Maybe this changes on higher difficulties, but I certainly didn't feel like either things was super advantageous for her.

Well Towa's Weakner is also single target only, which can be fine, but there's enough fights where being able to hit multiple enemies with it at once is still valueable, and it's not like you have a shortage of casters on C's route to exploit it.  And sure, eventually the accessory becomes pointless because of the cast time floor but you don't actually hit that for a while even with fast cast BOs, and maybe this is just me feeling sepith/u-material starved but I didn't feel like there was enough going around in the +spd accessory department to compete with it for a while.

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We definitely agree that both are probably bottom feeders - especially if you discount STONE characters. I think my preference for Swin is that C's route lacks any true front line character. Lapis tries but her HP is pretty low so she can't really tank. So Swin being an extra warm body while C and Nadia light things up *does* help even if he goes down after like 2 hits because let's face it - he's not much more durable than her. Comparatively, what reason is there ever really to put Kurt into the team that the other characters available cannot cover? I have a real tough time answering that.

My general approach to C's route was to forgo pretty much any idea of direct tanking because... yeah.  But since we agree that the only reason to bother with either is the result of a forced hand, my general though process is that Kurt has a better toolkit to work with (access to impede, slightly better AoE access, self buff that doesn't take until Lv200 to be worthwhile) and feels less bad to be forced into using as a result, so the only way Swin above Kurt would make sense to me is to curve performance on individual routes and discount the TRC entirely.


29
Discussion / Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« on: October 16, 2023, 09:55:07 PM »
Fire Emblem Engage: The other reason for my laziness in this topic because I'm supposed to be obligated to think about this pile of meh or something.

Anyways I wouldn't describe character balance as being particularly good outside of there being an overall lack of slam dunk characters.  The lower end of things... is better than some but there's too much that I'd consider irredeemable.  Anyways.

Alear: Weird and hard to rate fairly.  Bizarrely the closest comparison I have is Micaiah where getting good use out of them requires some lateral thinking around their perks of Rose Thorn 2.0, convoy access, and the only dragon typing you'll see until C22 because their combat is pretty mid otherwise.  I think it works overall, even if I didn't make the arguable best use of it.  7/10.

Vander: So 40 HP to start with is actually a lot, turns out, and lets you get away with more than you should with those stats.  Has a clear point of obsolencese and paladin is a very weak class in this game but it's hard to argue with the early game performance when you have so much incompetence going around.  5/10.

Clanne: So tomes are actually good in this game.  Clanne... is less good.  Middling bases, shaky offensive growths (and mixed offensive builds aren't really wonderful in general), bad personal but 75% of the cast has bad personals so whatever... I really don't see what he has to recommend him over literally any other tome user in the game.  3/10.

Framme: Early staff filler.  You use her because staves are good and then you bench her once you get better options.  Same score as Vander works.  5/10.

Alfred: What the fuck.  I guess he's durable when he's not getting doubled by things but cavalry is a weak class tag and stat spread is pretty uninspiring.  2/10.

Etie: Early bow user.  You use her because the game uses fliers early but above average strength as your only good stat doesn't really work out long term.  3.5/10.

Boucheron: You know I wouldn't be averse to the whole axe myrm thing he tries to do if his bases were more agreeable.  As is... he's durable via HP but not to the extent that Vander is early (and not really more durable than Alfred when he's not being doubled either) and the poor luck stat is a flight risk unless you give him an engrave or a compact axe which nah.  2.5/10.

Céline: Better start than Clanne but still has a lot of the same issues.  Her luck does make her a good candidate for some Divine Pulse staff nonsense but that doesn't come until Hortensia joins and, well.  4/10.

Chloé: One of the few glimpses of true earlygame competence.  Offense can be a bit of an issue but she has a personal which can help with her issues there (gasp!  An actually useful personal skill in Engage!) but being a flier is nice and the speed is screaming.  Others can outdo her with class swapping but the ones that can join later and miss out on early Canter so I don't think I'd call them better.  7.5/10.

Louis: One of the other glimpses of true earlygame competence.  Amazing defense and immunity to break are some pretty great boons early.  Falls off once promotions start happening because he gets doubled by mages and explodes to them and enemy backups foil the concrete tanking thing (unless you give him Corrin.  Don't give him Corrin.) but it's really hard to argue with that earlygame.  6/10.

Jean: Early staff filler except he joints like four and a half chapters later with nothing to show for it.  Trying to leverage his personal is a pretty bad trap if you ask me, Engage not really the sort of game where it's worth messing around with that kind of project, the game shows a lot of teeth and it shows them very early.  2/10.

Yunaka: So daggers are actually pretty good in this game and thieves are the only ones that get to use them before promoting... too bad thief isn't a great class long term and Yunaka's stats aren't the greatest.  Still probably better than whatever the hell Clanne is doing with his life.  5/10.

Anna: Oh look it's Boucheron with a worse start and a more convoluted gimmick.  Either you suffer through 5 levels of axefighter with her and make her a radiant bow user, or you switch her to mage and have her do very little that Citrinne isn't already doing for you.  No.  1/10.  BUT SHE IS ONE OF THE TWO CHARACTERS WHO CAN MAKE SS DISHES IN THE SOMNIEL

Alcryst: Somewhat better than Etie and has a more useful personal.  Still not really that great.  4.5/10.

Lapis: Lapis is better than what I intially kneejerked but she still suffers from being in a very weak class and needs two seals to really function as a PC, and that's not something I look kindly on unless you're bringing something truly useful to the table.  Alear can do this, Lapis... doesn't really do anything that Chloé isn't already doing.  4/10.

Citrinne: Citrinne is also better than what I initially kneejerked and in her case it's somewhat significant?  Mage Knight is pretty good for her, turns out, +3 speed on promotion plus +3 more against physicals once Chaos Style shows up is pretty nice.  Too bad Ivy exists though but otherwise she's fine?  6/10.

Diamant: Aggressively mid.  Basically Alear with some stat shuffling and without the stuff that makes Alear cool.  5/10.

Amber: Very strong but as mentioned before cavalry is a weak class tag and he'd be better off as anything else so he has the same problems as Lapis and as such, gets the same score.  4/10.

Jade: Louis who is worse at everything that matters and sports low luck at a time when enemies start packing steel weapons.  Which is actually a concern instead of a complete joke since IntSys finally learned to not make them ridicuously heavy and also gave them +5 crit because ???.  Anyways Jade bad.  2/10.

Ivy: Tomes good.  Staves good.  Flying good.  Ivy is the only one of two characters who gets all three.  She joins at the point where people start missing out on early Canter and the stat spread is merely good (outside of DEX/LCK but who cares after C14, Ivy probably makes the best use of an Academy engrave) but those are the only real problems.  Anyways Engage isn't the sort of game that lends itself to a high score cieling but I think Ivy does hit that cieling.  8/10.

Kagetsu: Hello, yes, it's Stat God Kagestu, here to wait patiently until he can reclass into something that isn't swordmaster and then kill everything.  Fortunately he doesn't have to wait that long.  7/10.

Zelkov: Generally better stats than Yunaka, but joins at a point where thief dagger use is less attractive.  Probably worth the same score.  5/10.

Fogado: Generally the best radiant bow user unless you want to baby Anna (you don't want to baby Anna) but since the radiant bow has 19 mt this is actually a pretty good niche.  Not terribly impressive outside of this as he sports the same offensive issues seen on Chloé but hey.  5.5/10.

Pandreo: Then you get this guy who's basically just Bishop Pent except you can reclass him into something with a better tome rank if you want.  7.5/10.

Bunet: Um.  At least you don't have to baby him so he's maybe better than Anna?  Maybe?  There really isn't anything good to say about him, the clear loser among the Solm retainers.  1.5/10.

Timerra: Well crit debuffing is nice and she's fine on her join map... just so many issues longterm.  I haven't really seen a way to get milage out of her outside of Sandstorm procs and the problem with that is that you're relying on *proc skills* which is not a wonderful place for a character to be in.  But that's still nicer than what I said about Alfred so.  4/10.

Panette: Panette is a character where I saw the glass jaw before the ridicious strength stat and reclassing/emblem potential and wound up making an unfair initial assessment because she's actually pretty good once you work around those issues.  7/10.

Merrin: Kagetsu with worse stats but starts off in an actually good class.  It roughly balances.  7/10.

Hortensia: See Ivy, except swap the staff/tome ranks and give her a speedy but physically frail and low damage stat build.  You're here for the staff cheese though.  7.5/10.

Seadall: So I said there was only so high the rating cieling can go for Engage characters and Ivy hit that cieling.

I lied.

So normally the problems that plague single-refresh dancers is that 1) they tend to be low move, 2) they tend to be liabilities when caught by enemies, and 3) you're simply optimizing your existing action economy instead of actually improving it, so if you mess up and the worst cast scenario under 2 happens, well, maybe you should've fielded someone else in that slot instead.  Seadall's... not as good at avoiding 2 as 3H dancers can be but makes up for that by virtue of the fact that you just got a pair of boots lying in one of Solm Castle's doodad drawers, the fact that you can buy Canter for everyone and it may as well be a free skill for him, and the fact that an engaged character's actions tend to be more valueable than an unengaged character's actions so the action economy optimization is better than "give your best character another action" is in other games.  It's ridiculous and even if you, like me, didn't actually use him it should be painfully obvious to see why he's great.  9/10.

Rosado: I vaguely recall doing the math and found that his bases were disappointingly close to a level 20/1 Chloé, which isn't helped by his decision to be an axe/spear person to start off with.  I also distinctly recall him being unable to oneshot the corrupted wyrm that exists to be an Eirika engage attack tutorial on Hard mode.  Needless to say these were not great impressions.  4/10.

Goldmary: Okay physical filler and hero is a perfectly fine class to exist in, so better than Rosado, for all that I like him far better.  5/10.

Lindon: Solid magic filler with some crit build potential.  Far worse life choices to make, certainly.  6/10.

Saphir: Okay physical filler character with an iffy personal skill.  4.5/10.

Mauvier: Pile of solid stats, wants a better class to be in than Royal Knight because good grief that thing.  5/10.

Veyle: Oh look, it's dragon typing and it's just in time for Alear to get peak magical vtuber powers so someone else can use Byleth for the rainbow instruct/dance, that's nice.  6/10.


30
Discussion / Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« on: October 16, 2023, 08:27:02 PM »
Quote from: Tide
Trails to Reverie Rankings - Standard Difficulty as always. If they wanted to make things harder, should have done that and slapped Normal / Standard on that instead. Anyway, some notes here as well because this game is massive (also surprised no one else has made a post about it).

Well 51 characters is a lot to cover and a lot of them just run together in the mind a lot, especially since for a number of them there isn't really anything you could say about them that you couldn't for the past 4 games.  Also I've been very lazy about this lately.

I think I broadly agree with the overall rationale so I don't have much to say about the cast other than quibbling with placement.  Not going to comment on the characters gained through ORBS.

Lloyd: Higher, though by how much depends on whether or not you can break the Chrono Burst restriction with Burning Heart.  Still, having suction is good, defense... isn't actually completely shameful to have for once for all that I still wouldn't call his stat build brilliant, his BOs are fine since bosses get turns again, and Burning Heart is still pretty dumb.

Elie: About right, I think.  Panic button and the ability to inflict weak is great, but she still has the general caster woes and Strike Bell getting demoted to a BO doesn't help.  Her main game availablity is a bit spotty but that's true for pretty much everyone on Lloyd's route except for the man himself.

Randy: Lower.  He's basically Agate except War Cry doesn't self buff and he has a +damage% BO instead of a +break% BO, that's not really enough for a tier's worth of difference, let alone being above Gaius and his lol I inflict absolute delay S-Craft of stupid.

Tio: Higher, though this is mostly Absolute Reflect BO still being completely broken since the counterplay to them is rare and hers gives CP.  Secondary time lock is nice since you're not sacrificing a free slot for Action or Cast.

Noel: About right.  Her spread ailments around like an absolute lunatic MO actually works this time but that's pretty replaceable.

Wazy: About right, fast cast BOs are nuts and his gives you an ATS buff in the bargain.  Akashic Arm isn't as disgusting relatively speaking as it was in Azure but it's still pretty great.

Rixia: Higher.  So her suction move is actually pretty bangin', big area doubletap for 40 CP?  I'm in.  Honestly seems better than Fie outside of dodgetanking on the strength of that alone.

Lechter: About right.  He's usefuly in Lloyd's second chapter where you don't have warm bodies but that's about it.  Generalists tend to need something special going for them and he really kind of doesn't.

Tita: Lower.  While the durability, while nerfed from CS4 is still kind of hilarious, she's just so slow.  Castworst speed IIRC and she has the dubious distinction of being the only PC to have normal crafts with 3500 delay.  +60% damage for 6 turns is a cool BO effect but for 4 BP it had better be.

Agate: About right.  Wild Rage sure exists and is a thing that says +STR (L) on it and nothing else particularly offends.

Alisa: Lower, I think.  Heavenly Gift is good but the base version isn't S tier good and you're waiting until Trial Door 8 for the upgrade... and I'm not convinced that's S tier good either.

Sharon: About right.  Pretty clearly worse than Rixia due to stats/no self buff and the fact that they priced her 100% evade BO the same as the Absolute Reflect ones is a bit of a bad joke.

Machias: Yeah this is probably his best showing I think.  All the PCs running together in the mind just makes the big thing he brings to the table stand out more.

Towa: Maybe higher?  Weak's a pretty cool thing to be able to inflict but it's hard to argue that she isn't the worst out of the PCs that can do that.  Unlike the others though she does get Arts Boost...

Estelle: Lower.  Iffy stat spread, fairly mid BO.  Ratings on Barrage/Wheel of Time are good but single target lock on them's a strike against.

Joshua: About right.  Saved from mediocrity by Black Fang.

Rean: About right.  I initially considered kneejerking him as lower due to losing the stupidity that was Divine Song but I think the speed's too good for that.

Juna: About right.  Her CS4 niches kind of got eroded for various reasons and she has to wait a bit to get Accelerate... but really, with so many cast members running together in the mind the fact that she gets an Accelerate craft and can exist alongside Machias at all is still good enough for this tier.

Kurt: ...About right.  There isn't actually much redeemable about him, but he's not Swin, which is the only thing that gives me pause here.

Altina: Higher.  Again, like Tio this is mostly Absolute Reflect BOs being broken.

Ash: Higher.  He's still pretty mid but the craft list is good enough to dodge a D.

Musse: About right.  The demise of spammable Chrono Burst and the nerf to her BO means there's little she does to stand out.

Claire: ...About right.  Generalist stat build with nothing except an Accelerate BO going for her.

Elise: Lower.  Pretty much everything I said about Lechter applies to her as well, except she brings healing to a fight that shuts orbments off.  I guess that's more notable but not enough for a tier's worth of difference.

Millium: About right.  The eternal problem child strikes out again.

Jusis: Lower.  Generalist stat build problems.  Elvars helps a bit but the individual buffs are too paltry and Platinum Shield is competing with a bunch of other broken defensive options.  Those and Boost Arts are good enough to dodge a D but he's still very mid.

Elliot: About right.  There's really nothing you can say about him that hasn't been said in every CS game ever.

Crow: ...Yeah this is about right.  His base ATS isn't amazing but he benefits from fast cast setups so much it isn't funny, and even if you don't want to do that for whatever reason he still has a lot of the things that Rean also has going for him.  I'd probably be inclined to argue that Low Rent C is better but that's it.

Emma: About right.  She can CP battery, she can do the caster thing, but neither of these things are especially standout.

Sara: About right.  Lacks what Crow and We Have C At Home bring to the table but she certainly tries.

Gaius: Higher.  Howling Heavens is still a thing that says Absolute Delay and the demise of Chrono Burst loops just means this is very stupid instead of utterly gobsmackingly stupid, Golden Howl is still a thing that trades HP for CP says +STR, and like Rean he actually has passable casting ability.  I guess his BO is still bad?

Fie: Lower.  Dodgetanking is great and all but that's mostly all she brings to the table.

Laura: About right, maybe higher.  Lion Rush is a heck of a drug considering it has 2000 delay with those ratings and even if it's just for three actions, +80% damage on the BO for 3 BP is solid.  I'm not certain this is enough on the Wild Rage havers though to warrant moving up.

Celine: About right.  You could use literally any other caster instead and lose basically nothing worth having.

The C Stands For Casval, Actually: Well I already said I'd arguably consider him better than Crow.  Impressive stats, for one.  Dark Requiem may not be Divine Song but it's still ridiculous.  Zevarl is silly since it's an attack that also gives +SPD (L), Noblesse Rune is silly since it gives +STR/ATS (M/L) AND 1 BP for 1000 delay... I guess he shows up in the TRC later than Crow does?  Regardless he's absurd.  but what do you expect considering it's Rufus who's been hyped to hell in the story?

Swin: ...Lower.  I find Swin to the be the worst PC in the game and I don't think it's particularly close.  Problematic stat spread, junk craft list, bad BO, generally no real perks outside of his really convoluted Marking gimmick which doesn't really work since it doesn't offer enough to be worth it.  I guess he has Arts Boost for C-louche's party in the timeframe where Renne isn't around but ugh.

Nadia: Higher.  She actually has a fair amount going for her so I'm actually the most surprised by this one.  First, she gets a unique accessory that's basically a free Cast 3 quartz, that's pretty great.  Secondly, she gets Threddy Bear, which is a thing that says inflicts Weak and inflicting Weak is pretty good.  I guess Fire's not the most amazing primary lock for a caster to optimize around but she's pretty good outside that.

Lapis: About right.  Pretty much Edel Heart/10 since she has the generalist issues on top of being rather undurable.

Renne: Probably higher.  Has Arts Boost, has an accelerate BO that also gives fastcasting, has a self buff that gives +ATS/SPD (M) and 1 BP, agreeable stats for what she wants to be doing.

Duvalie: About right.  Apparently she went to the Alan Richard school of fast craft spam between games but forgot that she was dealing with CS3 onwards CP costs so somewhat comically she's almost TOO fast to really function.  Still a damn sight better than whatever her CS4 showing was trying to do.

Arios: About right, his Gale has All Cancel attached to it, nothing else is even relevent.  (He's still good outside of this.)

31
Godlike:

T260G (SaGa) vs. Belial (WA4) - Belial needs way too much time here and smashcan isn't walled by distortion.


Middle:

Red XIII (FF7) vs. Byleth Eisner (FE3H) - Honestly Byleth has no way to avoid a L2 to me barring a lucky crit at the right time.

not gonna bother with voting on the rematches

32
Godlike:

Fenrir (VP1) vs. Belial (WA4)


Heavy:

Levin Brenton (WAXF) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) - Think I agree with this as a kneejerk.


Middle:

Tony (WA4) vs. Byleth Eisner (FE3H) - So Shoot 3HKOs on average, that'd be a bit too much to me (no I am not going to board the absurd cast favoritism train and pretend Shoot isn't something that can't double)... except WM Avoid +20 exists and should let Byleth dodge two out of four attacks.  Two Nos counters + Sublime Heaven won't be enough... but those and a SotC counter will, and the weak Nos healing + Renewal means that Tony will need 3 crits to avoid this which isn't that likely, so yeah saved by that near in-game useless budding talent here.

33
Winners:

T260G (SaGa) vs. Fenrir (VP1) - sure I guess

Losers:

Rika (PSIV) vs. Belial (WA4) - Rika not really hacking this either.  (I still see Rika as being over half of Belial's turnspeed... but yeah asking me to respect the evasion here is too much of an ask.)


Heavy:

Winners:

Levin Brenton (WAXF) vs. Emelia (SaGa)

Losers:

Edgar (FF6) vs. Lilka (WA2)


Middle:

Winners:

Red XIII (FF7) vs. Tony (WA4) - Yeah for Tony to take this one you'd to both not do anything for FF7 limits at all and see Tony not oneshotted by a L1.  Since Tony's not likely dodging a L2 to me, well.

Losers:

Byleth (FE3H) vs. Florina (FE7) - Pretty sure we haven't actually had this one.  Anyways, pretty sure Florina's got a bunch of problems since 1) she's not doubling Byleth with anything, 2) her damage when she's not doubling struggles to meaningfully outpace Renewal, 3) Byleth has Windsweep with its attendant +20 hit to blunt Florina's evade somewhat and not trigger counters, 4) if Florina tries for javelins that uh tanks her AS to the point where Byleth is doubling her with SotC and the AS drop is costing her more evade than what she's getting from partial WTA, so yeah not really seeing the Florina argument here.


Light:

Winners:

Heather (FE10) vs. Virginia Maxwell (WA3) - Yeah knives against Ginny evade isn't working out too well for counter strats to pay off and Heather ain't doubling.

34
Godlike:

Arceus (PKMN) vs. Rika (PSIV) - Not particularly willing to hype Ghost Plate stuffing Elim today, it's probably not turn 1 based on my revised assumptions but that doesn't matter.
Belial (WA4) vs. Killer (SH3)


Heavy:

Edgar (FF6) vs. Asellus (SaGa) - On the other hand I think I'm pretty okay with SaGa Frontier sound immunity spoiling Noiseblaster as a kneejerk, feels like one of those weird things that should probably be rewarded.
Ness (EB) vs. Lilka (WA2) - right, half FP Reflect crest, literally nothing matters.


Middle:

Byleth (FE3H) vs. October (CSTW) - So October's -1.3 SD speed, that's likely gonna land her in Brave Quad range.
Florina (FE7) vs. Elena (G2) - Doubles, goes first, 2RKOs with an iron sword and yeah Nightmare Ball isn't landing turn 1.


Light:

lolnope.

35
Godlike:

Winners:

Killer (SH3) vs. T260G (SaGa) - Think so offhand?
Rika (PSIV) vs. Fenrir (VP1) - Even assuming Rika gets around the evade, what does she do about freeze?

Losers:

Belial (WA4) vs. Nailah (FE10) - See here's the nommed FE godlike that has no theorhetical way around Distortion.


Heavy:

Winners:

Levin Brenton (WAXF) vs. Lilka (WA2) - Yeah WA2 evade only applies to basic physicals, which Cancel Strike isn't, and Levin is faster by a good margin so Lilka would likely never get her game started anyways.
Emelia (SaGa) vs. Asellus (SaGa)

Losers:

Eirika (FE8) vs. Edgar (FF6)
Auron (FFX) vs. Ness (EB) - Yeah Paralysis is pretty much a complete lock here.  I don't think it'd shut down ODs offhand but the Eject ban means I don't think it'll matter.


Middle:

Winners:

Red XIII (FF7) vs. Elena (G2) - Yeah sleep being out means I don't think Elena has any real chance here.
October (CSTW) vs. Tony (WA4) - Dear lord Tony tripleturns her.

Losers:

Byleth (FE3H) vs. vs. Flay (MK) - Right, so both sides have issues here, timed cards aren't counterable but Flay's still all ST save for Screwdriver so Byleth will still get to counter the opening hit, Byleth 3RKOs with SotC at base, goes first, and won't be downed by timed cards before they see a second turn.  However, and here's the real problem... Flay has both Blocker and Last Stand and SotC has something resembling A Crit Rate and those make a big ol' mess of things.  But honestly, the thing with the timed cards is that is also gives Byleth's modest evasion a chance to shine... and two rounds of Buster Star won't 2HKO on average once that and Renewal are accounted for (this is assuming an average that includes phantom PCs for Trick Card purposes for the record, and since Byleth has a good luck stat Flay's own crits aren't likely to be a factor)... but Raiden Charge exists and does have fast recharge on it... so I think the turn order in that case looks like Byleth -> Flay (Raiden Charge) -> Flay (Buster Star), Byleth counters -> Byleth (heals the opening buster star mostly off) -> two Buster Star TC (~46.7% total damage) -> Flay (Buster Star), counter... yeah the problem with that is that then Byleth's turns start breaking up the timed cards in an annoying way so it can't do enough about the fact that Renewal is basically counteracting the time Blocker/Last Stand is buying him.

tl;dr, Flay likely loses in a scenario where Byleth gets more than 6 SotC swings against him, doesn't seem to have a way to avoid such a scenario that I can see, and very well might lose even if there is.

Florina (FE7) vs. Nephenee (FE10) - I actually think this is right barring a more detailed mathematical breakdown.  Nephenee10's not actually that impressive thanks to Sentinel caps, even above average AS will keep her from doubling and her accuracy is below average so even if Florina tanks her AS by using a silver lance to avoid WTD and 3HKO she may well still be able to get a turn 2 dodge (and if you use a higher damage average than I do, well Nephenee just lost her 2HKO), meanwhile Nephenee can't really be said to be dodging in any relevent timeframe.   Really don't think javelins matter much here since those are even worse on accuracy.


Light:

Winners:

Queen (S3) vs. Virginia Maxwell (WA3) - If this is what people who have a more solid grasp of what Ginny's evade amount in DL practice than I do are thinking then I'm not about to disagree.

Losers:

Poshul(CC) vs. Selphie(FF8)

36
Godlike:

Belial (WA4) vs. Chaz Ashley(PSIV) - Even if two shielding it up would let him take two Tank Drops, he doesn't have the level of offense needed to capitalize on it.
Nailah (FE10) vs. Rayquaza(PKMN)


Heavy:

Alexia Lynn Elesius (WAXF) vs. Eirika (FE8) - Revolver Sweep can avoid FE counters but it doesn't matter since Eirika just ORKOs.  Alexia isn't durable.
Kanji (P4) vs. Edgar (FF6)
Clarissa Arwin (WAXF) vs. Auron - Hmm.  Clarissa has the MP for Sacrifice + 8 shots of Rob Turn but... Auron opening with Magic Break does ruin Sacrifice pretty bad (and Sacrifice being ITD is bad against Auron)... and after that she'd need 7 more shots and yeah I dunno, she's probably kind of dead if Auron ever sees a second.


Middle:

Byleth (FE3H) vs. Sylvain (FE3H) - uh kneejerking Byleth despite Sylvain having Swordbreaker?  Sylvain kind of needs to be using Swift Strikes here and while that is, admittedly, a bit unstable thanks to Minor Gautier procs doing that with anything other than iron is getting him doubled so his ability to punch through Renewal is worse and SotC has this cool thing where it's 1-2 range.  Unless you want to hype Swift Striking with Short Spears but no way am I down with that being a repeatable thing on anything requiring Wootz Steel to repair. e: right, Vantage matters here too.  Yeah that's enough to go from uncertain lean to reasonably confident.
Aht (RH) vs. Flay (MK) - So Flay immunes sleep and won't get killed by a Star trap, this probably isn't working out too well for Aht even under the best of circumstances.
Florina (FE7) vs. Blanca (SH2)
Nephenee (FE10) vs. Anastasia(SH2) - Goes first, doubles and 2RKOs under halfshifted averages.  While it's actually not unreasonable for Ana to take this if you toss out laguz non-royals, Ana vs Byleth was an egregious rob so I'm going to be particularly mean here.


Light:

Peppor (CC) vs. Linhardt(FE3H) - Yeah not having stats for any of the Solt/Peppor fights is probably too much of a problem.
Jelanda (VP1) vs. Poshul(CC) - Probably.
Boco (FFT) vs. Selphie(FF8)

37
Interesting.  Going off of that and the respective stat topics it looks like Jowy's +1.1 SD speed would translate to roughly 60 PS4 AGI which I assume is a 70% hit rate on Elim then, and a roughly (e: whoops) +1.323 SD (for 62 PS4 AGI) would be needed to push Elim below turn 1 to me.  Tir would do it though!

38
Godlike

Rayquaza (PKMN) vs. Killer (SH3)
T260G (SaGa) vs. Chaz Ashley (PSIV) - Going with the option that doesn't require me to guess at Brose accuracy or hype it as working. e: Chaz can avoid a Magnify OHKO if he uses two shields but if neither Brose or Explode is turn 1 it doesn't matter since smashcan will just enforce a heallock anyways
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs. Rika (PSIV) - This feels like one of those times where I wish the PS4 stat topic actually had notes on how well stats affect status odds because Rika sure as hell can't take a Hungry Fiend.  I don't... think Elim is turn 1 here but I'm not certain.  e: right, that detail.


Heavy

Lilka (WA2) vs. Auron (FFX) - yeah don't think this is working out for Auron.
Edgar (FF6) vs. Emelia (SaGa)
Asellus (SaGa) vs. Eirika (FE8)


Middle

Red XIII (FF7) vs. Anastasia (SH2) - Petrify blocker
Blanca (SH2) vs. Elena (G2)
Flay (MK1) vs. October (CSTW) - Flay's not that impressive without timed cards being able to work their magic.
Tony (WA4) vs. Sylvain (FE3H) - Once again, a typical WA4 boss, even one as questionable as Tony, is not something a FE dueler without significant evasion or the ability to kill on counters wants to face.


Light

Heather (FE10) vs. Poshul (CC) - Doubles, counters, has evasion.
Linhardt (FE3H) vs. Queen (S3) - I think so?  Lindhardt isn't doubled if he uses Fire but Queen's average damage output gives her a 3HKO through Renewal and he'll need 6 Fires to kill which is too many.  Nosferatu stalling would be a thought but that gets Lin doubled and Queen does have Heavy Damage...

39
Unless both Tank Drop and Agony Effect somehow became MT when I wasn't looking I'm not sure why y'all are even bothering to discuss this.  Unless you want to argue it's like 3H siege magic and shouldn't double anyways but I don't know if I can bring myself to care when it's not like there's any way you can say for sure.

Come to think of it I'm not even sure if a single use of Raging Storm one-shots the distortion...

40
Godlike:

Magus (CT) vs. Arceus (PKMN)  - Dragon type does it apparently?
Belial (WA4) vs. Edelgard (FE3H) - WELP.
Nailah (FE10) vs. Shania (SH3) - Shania of the below average speed going first here?  Yeah don't really think so.  Also don't think her low grade fire magic is good enough to punch through Nailah's mdur on a double even with discounting evasion (which, as a reminder, sits somewhere around ~40% even without assuming her in-game useless authority levels) assuming SH3 attack magic works like I think it does.  Anyways even assuming laguz non-royals are tossed out of the average Nailah is very close to a 1-rounding which means very little likely matters here (under halfshifted she just scrapes a 1RKO and literally nothing matters.)


Heavy:

Maya Schrodinger (WA3) vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius (WAXF) - Trusting Tide here.
Haishao (XG) vs. Kanji (P4) - A USE FOR ZIODYNE YES.  *ahem* Anyways Kanji nulls Elec so Haishao is stuck using Nereid Cyclone which uh.  Um.  Yeah Ziodyne's not THAT terrible an option.
Ness (EB) vs. Worker 8 (FFT) - e: Oh so Compress actually is bugged, you'd think that'd be something that would be brought up earlier.


Middle:

Juno (SN) vs. Byleth (FE3H) - I think this is right?  Both counter eachother but 31 AS with SCS isn't shaky enough that it fails to double Juno of the 102% speed and turn speed buffs don't change this in my view, and Sublime Heaven does have that looming 39 crit rate to punch through as well as Windsweep to delay Hydro Fang coming out... (also as Pyro pointed out before, Swordmaster does exist as an option with its added +10 crit to push things further in their favor)
Aht (RH) vs. Fafnir (WA3) - This probably takes a bit since Fafnir does have -some- HP but I'm pretty sure Aht does actually have the resource depth needed for this even without any trap hype.  Sure her physical durability sucks, but it's not like Fafnir's physical is any good and a lot of that is a function of her bad HP, so it's not like Fafnir is anywhere close to an effective 2HKO.
Florina (FE7) vs. Dalton (CT)


Light:

Edward (FF4) vs. Berserker (FF5) - 4a Edward probaby wins, 4o Edward probably loses, like hell I'm going to give this any further thought.
Peppor (CC) vs. Lelei (S5) - Gonna go with the crowd on this one, I guess.
Tony (WAXF) vs. Jelanda (VP1) - So Tony doesn't ever break through Heal assuming Fairy Rings, that's great.

41
Godlike

Jowy Atreides (S2) vs. Belial (WA4) - It's possible Jowy might get lucky with dodging but Belial is accurate and +1.1 SD ain't fast enough to fend off her instadoubling by any measure and he doesn't survive two Tank Drops, so I'm not actually sure about this one.
Edelgard (FE3H) vs. Rika (PSIV) - Really now.  Honestly Elim could be turn never and Rika would probably still win this unless you don't limit Raging Storm to OPB (I mean, I wouldn't see PS4 dodging combat arts but it doesn't actually matter.)
Nailah (FE10) vs. Fenrir (VP1) - Not a great time to be a physical FE character in godlike, it seems.

Heavy

Emelia (SaGa) vs. Clarissa (WAXF)
Ness (EB) vs. Asellus (SaGa)
Worker 8 (FFT) vs. Eirika (FE8) - After accounting for StQ/Defense Up, W8 has like ~1.59 pdur to me?  And I am probably willing to buy into Sieglinde getting monster effectiveness here.


Middle

Florina (FE7) vs. Flay (MK1) - Tide's probably right, Florina's likely 3RKOing at best here and 52% evade isn't really cutting it against timed card spam with her poor physical durability.
Dalton (CT) vs. October (CSTW) - Sadly, this is probably right. e: actually was ORB counter only on both forms, it's not listed as such on the one he can actually win matches with and it's been way too long.
Nephenee (FE10) vs. Tony (WA4) - Tony instadoubles, has Micro Missiles for long range action.  Are two javelin counters good enough?  IDK, kind of doubt it, Wrath might help but on the other hand Tony has some weak evade to make a mess of things, and it's not like Nephenee strength is anything special.


Light

Linhardt (FE3H) vs. Tony (WAXF) - Surely.
Queen (S3) vs. Jelanda (VP1) - Probably correct
Boco (FFT) vs. Virginia Maxwell (WA3) - uh surely?  Boco has like 0.61 PCHP and has to run into Ginny's evade, and of course the bird is much slower and has damage so bad that Ginny has no trouble getting a fatal Gatling off.

42
More like 26 -> 29 AS, brave weapons are very heavy and swordmaster isn't even the highest speed class.  29 AS may be enough anyways, but I'm not brave or productive enough to look at what the AS average looks like if everyone goes into their fastest class...

At any rate it doesn't matter anyways since I overlooked Sublime Creator Sword like a dummy which Byleth does double with regardless and 2RKOs Ana so yeah.  The lesson here is don't submit votes at 4 AM.

43
Godlike:

Rayquaza (PKMN) vs. Magus (CT) - Sounds about right.
Killer (SH3) vs. Arceus (PKMN) - Also sounds about right.
Chaz Ashley (PSIV) vs. Chaos (FF1) - This is probably right to me.


Heavy:

Levin Brenton (WAXF) vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius (WAXF) - Um.
Haishao (XG) vs. Lilka (WA2) - Um.
Kanji (P4) vs. Auron (FFX) - Power Break.


Middle:

Red XIII (FF7) vs. Juno (SN) - So on the one hand Juno counters.  On the other hand, seeing limit bars starting at half filled means there's no avoiding Stardust Ray.
Anastasia Romanov(SH2) vs. Byleth (FE3H) - e: see below, Byleth doubles with Sublime Creator Sword and 2RKOs that way, 32% magic evade means Ana likely has problems getting a 50% winrate off of the one cast of Euthanasia she gets.
Aht (RH) vs. Blanca (SH2)
Fafnir (WA3) vs. Elena (G2)


Light:

Selphie (FF8) vs. Berserker (FF5) - Probably right, axes not having good accuracy is likely the deciding factor here.
Peppor (CC) vs. Heather (FE10)
Poshul (CC) vs. Lelei (S5)

44
Tournaments / Re: RPGVO 2023 Nomination Thread
« on: August 05, 2023, 11:56:38 PM »
Godlike: Yuri (SH), Killer (SH3), Claude (SO2), Chaz (PS4)

Heavy: Arnaud (WA4), Lilka (WA2), Levin (WAXF), Maya Schroedinger (WA3)

Middle: Flay (MK1), Eliwood (FE7), Sylvain (FE3H), Red XIII (FF7)

Light: Poshul (CC), Chu-Chu (XG), Tony (WAXF), Boco (FFT)

45
Tournaments / Re: Proving Grounds: Flonning it up in Heavy
« on: July 24, 2023, 07:17:06 AM »
Flonne vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Ok Flash still works.
Flonne vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - Honestly finding Primm's defensive tricks pretty overrated these days so yeah.
Flonne vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - gg ramtos
Flonne vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Fuuma heallocks so the question is how many of those 25k gil boondoggles would I allow in a world where I also allow Hermes Sandals and the answer is probably not enough for Ninja to do it on an eventual double, 115% isn't fast enough for that.  Maybe if Image covered pseudomagic.
Flonne vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Lightning isn't really a thing in Disgaea that I can recall so no lumping it in with Wind for me but uh that's where the good news for Zapdos ends.
Flonne vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - another day, another instant death spammer
Flonne vs. Justin (Grandia) - sigh
Flonne vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Camilla goes first, heal locks with a handaxe because of Flonne's mild axe weakness and Savage Blow... except Flonne can counter and staves in D5 have 1-2 range so she's never safe from being ended once Flonne uses her Overload.  Going melee won't work either because iron isn't much better for damage in this scenario (never use Fates silvers if you're trying to enforce a heallock and forcing Flonne to use Omega Heal a few times isn't worth it) and it lets Flonne run fists.  8% crit rate isn't really good enough with my low respect for FE crits.  I don't think there's been a scenario where Camilla curses being 0.1 AS shy of doubling average more.
Flonne vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - ...well at least Flonne doesn't have Star resist.
Flonne vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - Think she has the level of damage control needed to avoid seeing Finishing Touch.
Flonne vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Dead End

What does it say that all the losses that I can vote on here involve instant death.

Harbinger vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Sure.  I'm more and more inclined to use a tiered system for SDs that make them linerally less potent and sets the cap/floor to 160%/62.5% at +/-5 SDs these days (I've actually toyed with the idea in my head for years but never really found an opportune time to make a switch, also okay not *literally* -5 because speed debuffing massive speed faliures shouldn't even be theorhetically useful are you happy hypothetical pedantic person) so Harbinger's insane action speed boost under Miasma Armor doesn't result in them being *crazy* fast but it doesn't matter here.
Harbinger vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - Pretty sure status doesn't go through Lucent Barrier... which doesn't really leave Harbinger with much if I'm honest.
Harbinger vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - :arnaud: continues to happen, Harbinger struggles to land anything even before Illusion comes into play and Slow Down just induces complete despair, Arnaud likely doesn't even need to bother with getting a blocker.
Harbinger vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Durable, Ninja is not.  Harbinger is saved by having Auto-Miasma here but thanks to that insane action speed boost and poizn Ninja dies before seeing a second turn.
Harbinger vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Yeah probably.  Both poizn and panic are bad for Zapdos and they can only use one berry.
Harbinger vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Definitely a case where Naoto being able to set up for evasion matters as Chaos Reap is unrelable enough as is.
Harbinger vs. Justin (Grandia) - Bonecrusher Axe, the end?  G1 can get a blocker for all of Harbinger's relevent statuses and their damage when he's unable to apply them is putrid.
Harbinger vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Well thanks to 3H we know what scythes should count as and the answer is lances.  That said... 60% speed modifier on the status reaps puts their action speed to 135, which means Harbinger doesn't have a 3-2 here and Miasma Armor only lasts for three turns so a 4-3 would be out regardless, so Camilla needs to lose two turns to either paralysis or panic as without poizn Harbinger will only 4HKO.  This... probably still works out, I think?  I'd need to nail down exactly how the turn order breaks down but I don't think there's anything that would jeapordize Harbinger having a >50% chance of winning here.
Harbinger vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - Yep.
Harbinger vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - Probably.
Harbinger vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Yeah Asellus didn't really need for a lot of her evasion to be reliant on the enemy having only single target physicals.

Nightseeker vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Yeah there's no real way Ness prevents Nightseeker getting a Shadow Cloak Assassinate off.
Nightseeker vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - Yeah for whatever sick reason SoM status blocking has a massive disparity compared to the last storebought accessories so Primm just experiences a world of problems regardless.
Nightseeker vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - :arnaud: continuing to happen?  Seems possible.
Nightseeker vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)] - wait right I'm an idiot and overlooked Venom Throw for some reason, Venom Throw+Swift Edge still works so we just use that since there's a 67% chance that Nightseeker starts with Shadow Cloak up.
Nightseeker vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Sleep Throw being faster and Nightseeker being able to block paralysis means berry hype very likely doesn't matter here, any average where they're unquestionably legal would put Thunder OHKO hype out of the question anyways.  Never mind the fact that Blind gets the same results here anyways.
Nightseeker vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Yeah uh Nightseeker accuracy is a thing, pretty impossible to take Miori Shirt hype seriously in the face of that.
Nightseeker vs. Justin (Grandia) - G1's big status blocker doesn't cover blind and even without instant death, Nightseeker has other options.  That's probably enough to deal with Bonecrusher Axe hype.  Immortal Aura hype deserves to be fired off into the sun.
Nightseeker vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Nightseeker uses swords, yeah, but their accuracy is just obscene, so the sleep+assassinate combo is unstoppable here.
Nightseeker vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - Blind is here with the joke of the day.
Nightseeker vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - FF7 can block ID but it doesn't actually matter.
Nightseeker vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Probably, Nightseeker is entirely reliant on single target physicals to land status which doesn't work out too well here.

Anna vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Um.
Anna vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Anna vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - Have fun chasing shadows, I guess.
Anna vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Anna is faster and 2RKOs but Ninja has that 25% evasion which makes being able to gamble on Fuumas instead of needing Image up at all times to not die a thing... except Anna has Take Cover and I don't really know how to feel about that.
Anna vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)
Anna vs. Naoto (Persona 4) -
Anna vs. Justin (Grandia)
Anna vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Anna... can't really safely attack ever and even has partial WTD to work with because daggers are in the same part of the weapon triangle as lances.  Sleep's out since Camilla's in-game EXP advantage is gross.
Anna vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - Pretty sure Anna's the faster one here.
Anna vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Anna vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Probably.

Rubino vs. Ness (Earthbound) - A Brigandine character trying to beat Ness in a slugfest that is rich.
Rubino vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Rubino vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - No particular reason for me to believe that :arnaud: doesn't happen here.
Rubino vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Fall Berg 2HKOs and there's nothing Ninja can do about it.
Rubino vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Paralysis is out and Pressure doesn't really change the fact that Fall Berg is hitting a weakness here and that's just mean.
Rubino vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Brig doesn't really have ID to immune but Rubino has good status resist anyways, enough so that he'll likely get a turn to throw up Resist and put Naoto's chances into the shitter, which makes this academic.
Rubino vs. Justin (Grandia)
Rubino vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Has Awakening/Fates Swordbreaker, (barely) survives Rubino's two casts of Fall Berg.  Heaven help Rubino if he's seen as below average AS but I wouldn't take that view with Brig PCs.
Rubino vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - 1.73 mdur eh yeah sure that probably takes two meteors and he surely 2HKOs, his basic physical is above average
Rubino vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Rubino vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)

Kagetsu vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Cordelia, Kagetsu ain't, so my kneejerk is that Ness actually can hang on for long enough to do the needful.
Kagetsu vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - My respect for Lucent Barrier is probably still high enough for this though.
Kagetsu vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - Yeah -10 avoid isn't good enough against the Illusion/Slow Down combo
Kagetsu vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Fuuma 2HKOs.
Kagetsu vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)
Kagetsu vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Well Kagetsu has something like 1.5x average luck to make the instant death bad and there's a limit to how much I'm willing to hype nu!persona evasion strats against people with overkill accuracy to begin with so I guess the question here is are those factors enough and when in doubt Naoto doesn't really deserve calls made in her favor.
Kagetsu vs. Justin (Grandia)
Kagetsu vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Kagestu acc/evade are good but not reliably thwart Swordbreaker on people with modest evade to begin with good, and lances means he loses his counters while Camilla keeps hers.
Kagetsu vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - 51% evade says he'll dodge one of two meteors and that's all he needs.
Kagetsu vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - Surely.
Kagetsu vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - She ignores his evasion, he can't ignore hers.

rest later

46
https://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=6834.0 is the thread where said match happened, which basically boils down to "flying in SN beats melee infantry defensively so trying to apply that reasoning to non-fliers just because they use the same weapon isn't actually sound" which I'm not sure necessitates its own "here is what Random thinks about SN type matches in general" when we have two SN stat topics and the other one lists type matches by class as is because that part is one of the few bits outside of the whole melee > archer > mage triangle that's actually somewhat consistant and my point is more that "axewomen" is about as meaningful in this context as "birdwomen" in that they're both completely arbitrary classifications used to fit a square peg into a round hole and that "melee flyer" is a more generally useful tool for that purpose.  Especially since it would be mostly a rant about how using arbitrarily defined attack types is crap since that isn't even how it works for starters and SN isn't greatly consistant even with classes that openly do use the same weapon type along with a bunch of ???s every time some round peg comes along to screw with things.  If it were that easy to come up with a simple method that actually reflects how the game works one of us would've already done it years ago.

As an aside we wouldn't even be having this conversation if every SN non-monster class wasn't gendered so I'd also object to having that particular layer of stupidity around to trip people up.

Anyways Danette's weapon is refered to as a sword in the one cutscene it's actually mentioned, the fact that it looks more sword-like than knife-like from my recollection, and she her overall type matches are closer to swordsmen/Reyva than they are to bandits which is what I was basing the sword assumtion out of, I wasn't looking at what either stat topic labelled it as.  If it actually is a knife then well lol I've been wasting my time here but absent any real mechanical backing I'm going with what I know here.

47
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad): Danette did not need the -50 damage vs. axewomen here, she 4HKOs with melee or 5HKOs with ranged, meanwhile Panette just 2HKOs as always.

Aren't the only axewomen in SN fliers?  That feels far more material here and we've been through before this with Danette vs. Clive.  Not that this even matters because Pannette is doubled by average, goes second and can't counter sword users, which Danette is.

48
Like SN, I don't hold generics against the D5 plot PCs.

Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - I'm pretty reluctant to hype characters from games where multihit physicals are the norm giving D5 characters increased revenge gauge gains and 3 swings is a pretty normal amount of swings in S3.  Killia -does- have his own evade game as well as War God to ramp a bit and I agree that if he can live long enough to use Tyrant Revelio he wins but that needs 8 attacks to happen.  Meanwhile, Nash is faster, averages a 3HKO at base, and has Heavy Damage/stun procs, which feels like too much to ignore to me.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)  - This is probably right, Killia resists fists and takes less damage from range 1 folks and probably does so to enough of a degree that he can outslug.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Not really outslugging this, though.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - I'll bite, helps that Crono is a bit shy of a 3-2 to average speed even at best so he only gets 5 attacks in.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Going after Cherche with swords is a laughably terrible idea especially with Killia's poor HIT stat so fists it is!  That's... probably enough though?  Coinflip evasion isn't really Cherche's friend here since they both have similarish durability (well, if Cherche is in melee and not using a lance at any rate but using a lance means no brave) here and Killia can use AHW to avoid brave axe counters.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - uh Killia's best non-phys damage is a bit more than half that of Macrocosm and that's not really good enough.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Probably another case where being able to use fists and use AHW to avoid melee counters works, I think.  Not looking at this one too hard though.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - Typical Miranda problems.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Evade and poizn at worst, I think.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - I doubt anything Killia has works well here?  Disgaea characters being able to counter counters might matter if you don't allow starting OD meter but I do.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Killia should have a good base ATK stat from what I recall but it's not reduce Crash below turn 2 good and he kind of needs that.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - 2HKOs first.

Engage's KP is 55 to me (possibly a bit higher since the smash weapon average only factors in accuracy randomness and my thoughts on that should be clear), so no Panette OHKOing average with a silver greataxe hype.

Panette (FE Engage) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Nash... was a knife user, right?  Anyways he doubles, 2RKOs, and goes first.  Panette 2HKOs herself but Nash has good evasion so she'll probably whiff the second attack (and needs to use the less accurate tomahawk to counter, I think?  S3 weapon specifics are kind of a blur.)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Alena's evasion is a bit worse though and she's locked to melee so that probably is enough to tilt things.  NES version might flip things but that's not the version I played.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Kneejerk.  Panette does go first which makes things interesting but Meliadoul has shield evade, gets around the counters and has that whole weapon breaking nonsense. e: OTOH averaging in StQ/W8's impact on the physical durability curve is fair and... yeah I don't see a problem with allowing Panette what she'd need here.  Hellcry being able to double wouldn't be too outlandish but uh Meliadoul can't wear hats and Panette's not -that- slow so I'm not sure why that was even brought up.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Doubles, gets around counters.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Goes first and 2RKOS with a brave axe.  Panette doesn't 2HKO back with silver axe and silver greataxe is suicide.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - So silver greataxe 2HKOs through the phys resist... Heat Riser... I don't think it buys him more than the turn needed to use it and it doesn't let him ORKO.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Doubles, gets around counters, and no, Whirlwins aren't sufficient to convince me that Danette has an attack match disadvantage against axe-using infantry *proceeds to tap the sign*.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - um.  Even with starting SP I'm not sure how Miranda has the damage for this?  It's not like that would magically give her the MP for two WSDs.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - The cheese claims another victim.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - e: right, it was Ally, that's a thing.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Probaby?  Panette STR is really, really dumb, very likely makes Crash turn 3 or worse and Gryz doesn't double.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - As much as Yellow Scarves don't matter here, Nash can deal with any potential Immobilize hype well enough anyways.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Alena 2HKOs and 3-2s.  Blind's not foolproof and if Hughette tries for Immobilize Alena just finishes the deal once that fails to reapply.  Which it will, because status infliction in TS is based off of level and Alena is above average in that regard.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - I can't say I see Mighty Sword being useful here, and while Meliadoul can block Blind and Don't Move she can't block both at once, and surely riding a cute bird suffices to bypass shield evasion so I think this is actually right.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - TS characters can't dodge magic so.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Yeah probably.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - lolnope.  Adachi doesn't go first against PCs ever but it doesn't even matter with the status immunity and the phys resist.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - oh look, *an actual flyer*.  Danette really didn't need to lose half her damage against someone like Hughette.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - I mean I really have no idea why Miranda is in this pool.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Nope.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - So Gryz is Lv45 to an average of Lv42.11 let me see what I think about Immobilize landing turn 1 here.  And again Blind not foolproof.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

Pugilist (EO5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Yeah none of Nash's advantages work out too well here.  He'd really wish for an interp that makes Yellow Scarves not trash and I don't need to tell you how I feel about that.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4] - Not sure about this one.  DS Alena being worse makes this harder to read but Puglist does need an Arm Bind quickly and equipping a +stat accessory to help with that and that does poor things to your durability in EO5.  Leg Binds do help but not -that- much since Alena's speed is really dumb.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Blocking Don't Act is a pretty good analog to blocking Arm Bind and Hellcry is gonna ruin Pugilist forever.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Not letting Vigil Hat cover binds is probably enough, One-Two Punch is a heck of a thing.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) -  Think so?  Cherche is pretty durable and 2RKO with a Brave Axe before one considers arm binds.  She does have below average Luck which helps but even then that doesn't totally kill her damage and she does counter.  And once the arm bind wears off Pugilist is pretty dead.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Yeah there's no reason to believe Adachi is vulnerable to binds (and even if there were, they're inherently less accurate against FOEs/bosses ingame) so Pugilist is stuck being a pure physical slugger with unspecial damage.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Danette's faster and has counters.  Arm Bind's the only one that's particularly helpful here and that doesn't come out fast enough.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - Miranda really has issues putting people away with the transformed time she gets.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Pugilist is very accurate indeed, and to me they're faster than Bart.  And you can't have an evade game when your legs are broken.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - Evade & Counter ruining gameplans yet again.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Probably.  Arm Bind won't land turn 1 by default, but I'd allow the +stat accessories which helps Pugilist's infliction rate (and drives down Crash's accuracy as a bonus).  Does drop defense a bit but having your arms broken is pretty dang bad for your damage and Gryz isn't good enough to afford that.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - Concussion is game.

I'm pretty sure I've been convinced to use the two-turn average for 8PT for reasons that I've forgotten.

Tressa (Octopath) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - I think so?  Tressa can't really get anything desicive off before Silent Lake goes up and Nash outslugs under that.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Goes first, probably 3-2s because 8PT speed is actually worthless forever, and multihitting means she likely gets around Hang Tough.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Sidestep works well enough here to me.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Crono 4HKOs with Luminaire through Rest and has a 4-3 turnsplit so he avoids Bifelgan's Bounty.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Tressa kind of needs Sidestep up at all times to not die horribly and even then needs for you to find it in your heart for it to void both brave swings.  I don't, Cherche goes first because 8PT speed is completely worthless forever and again, has multiswinging to get around Hang Tough.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Mudoon's turn 2 to me but that's good enough.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)- Sidestep into Bifegan's Bounty claims a victim, I'm not sure what merchants would really correspond to but I'm not inclined to assume a favorable type match in Danette's favor.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - Rest and Sidestep make a mockery of Miranda forever don't they.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Black Snake pretty much removes any argument Tressa had here.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - Building for magic damage should let Bifelgan's Bounty kill without much of a fuss.  What's Kimahri gonna do in the meanwhile?  And Kimahri can't really do anything against wind magic.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - More sidesteppin'
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - Hang Tough means Lemina doesn't 2HKO first, which means she dies to capitalism.

Umimaru has low 3HKO MP consuming physicals/melee counters and a low 2HKO ITE finisher.  At least he's durable?

Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Not heal locked.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Sounds right.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Luminaire just barely 4HKO's Umimaru's 1.7 mdur... except Umimaru has a red orb and lightning is considered green, which means it actually doesn't 4HKO.  Oops. I GUESS if you wanted to argue that Luminaire corresponds to white instead this reverses but meh.  Anyways Umimaru 4HKOs and Crono doesn't have a 5-3 here so yeah.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Better physical durability and notably more damaging.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Honestly probably just outslugs.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Super Umimaru Cannon -> Tera-Charge -> Super Umimaru Cannon puts an end to Bart's nonsense.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - Unless I'm mistaken about Kimahri not having an OD he can win with here, the same strat should apply because I'm definitely not going to hype Lancet being worth a damn here.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Umimaru has pretty unimpressive STR which apparently BROSE also checks.  And yeah I'm not on board with Inorganic Body extending to instant death immunity.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Hilda didn't really need to be whiffing every other attack here.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Maybe?  Apocalyptic Flame does make it a bit interesting but it being OPB for me doesn't really make it interesting enough, and again Hilda does not need a significant percentage of her attacks to whiff.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - And again.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Well at least MT can't double but Crono's durable enough to not be 2RKO'd even if all four brave axe swings connect and he's 3HKOing with Luminaire himself.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Superior brave axe game and QUICK BURN because again, Hilda accuracy sucks.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Is Hilda innaccurate enough that Heat Riser might actually let Adachi stall for time for once?!  Probably not with my overall low Adachi respect, and of course Heat Riser does nothing for status accuracy which probably means Hilda's weak magic evasion matters a bit too much.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - I'd tap the sign again but that probably doesn't matter here, Hilda has accuracy issues but she still 2RKOs on her own turns with a brave axe and unlike Panette she's not being doubled and Break isn't a thing here.  Meanwhile Danette... 4HKOs Hilda's durability in melee and probably wants to avoid melee counters and so does worse in practice, assuming that would even work at all since I think that involves row switching nonsense which lol no so never mind!  Also never mind whatever imapct Apocalyptic Flame has on the match.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

this is a lot, rest later

49
Tournaments / Re: King of RPGDL: Grand finals
« on: April 16, 2023, 08:18:03 PM »
Heavyweight

Team SMASH: Geno / Alexia / Zerase (winners) vs Team Speed Manip: Fie (Cold Steel) / Arnaud / Tidus (losers)

Probably Speed Manip?  Fie immunes ID and has both 60% evasion off of equips as well as castbest AGI so that's gonna make Geno and Alexia a bit sad.  Geno can at least do magic damage which Fie can't dodge but that ain't saving him from anything, meanwhile Alexia likely whiffs her opener and just gives Fie all the time to play the odds.  Zerase can blow up Fie once she gets a shot but I don't think she carries this.

Lightweight

Team Servants: Gremio (S1), Brey/Borya (DQ4), Jakob (FE Fates) (winners) vs Team Cats & Frogs Living Together: Cray (Breath of Fire 4), Lethe (FE9), Frog (CT) (losers)

50
Tournaments / Re: King of RPGDL: Losers bracket 3
« on: March 27, 2023, 04:57:38 PM »
Heavyweight -

Team Speed Manip: Fie (Cold Steel) / Arnaud / Tidus vs Team Fellowship of the Ring: Athos / Rufus (VP2) / Geddoe

Lightweight -

Team Superaielman: Kain / Noel / Nergal vs Team Cats & Frogs Living Together: Cray (Breath of Fire 4), Lethe (FE9), Frog (CT)

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