The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: DjinnAndTonic on May 10, 2010, 09:19:09 AM
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Because I'm too lazy to get on GameFAQs and find the Contenders topic or whatever. I just finished writing the FF12:RW stat topic, so it's on my mind and I wanted to ramble about Divisions.
Due to the RTS recharge times on the PCs, they're basically all coming into fights with a bunch of OPB skills and hoping that it's enough to take out their opponents before their reduced to using physicals. With creative equipment and passive-skill choices, most of them can muster up a decent strategy.
Vaan - When I first looked at him and saw TimeSlip, I thought he'd just be a Stop status-whore, but Stop's duration is so short (less than a 'turn'), it just isn't worth it. Instead, he's relying more on his Damage+Stat-Steals for a fun buffing game that adds up quickly. Dervish doubles his already gamebest-speed (not quite that good in practice), so he's basically a fast debuffer with decent durability. Obviously, his damage is better after debuffing, so he's better in a longer fight. He can also hit all the main elements with his weapons, so he's probably a High Middle.
Penelo - Penelo is... interesting. She has one damage move, Holy, that she can use once every 25 seconds. In a game where one 'turn' averages out to 2.7 seconds. Along with her lolwhut Speed and Durability, she's obviously a Light. But she's got a few things in her favor. She can buff Holy up to some pretty respectable damage with Mystic Dance (247 damage just barely makes a OHKO with the 2.5x average is 245). She gets 1.8x damage against Flyers. She also has 100% Disable status, which lasts 10 seconds, possibly allowing her the time to recharge for a second Holy if need be. Also... Infinite Healing~! Though the actual unlimited spell, Cure, is pretty meh Healing (20%-ish) and slow. But she immunes Silence! Still, could make a High Light.
Kytes - Kytes is Vaan's little orphan friend. He actually appears in FF12 (it's okay, I forgot that too until I looked it up). He's also got more damage options than anyone in the cast and it breaks the 3-turn averages. Flare->Firaga->Thundaga->Blizzaga->Stonega->Bio is pretty ridiculous, especially considering that Flare can just break the OHKO mark with the right equipment set-up. Though it's not particularly speedy. He also has the best selection of status options in the game, but Silence is the only one really helping him. Complete glass cannon though. Status-bait too. Probably a mid-range Heavy.
Filo - Vaan's other, more annoying orphan friend. Another fast debuffer, though not as good as Vaan. She doesn't absorb the stats that she debuffs, after all. Not a lot of status or elemental options either. Only thing in her favor is that she does 1.3x damage to Melee fighters (and takes less damage from them too!). She's made of tissue paper to ranged fighters though. High Light/Low Middle.
Llyud - Guy with wings. Literally had his personality stolen. He's this game's take on a Dragoon. Lancet's HP-draining is pretty meh, but it's there. His skills recharge fast, so he might get a few more of them off than the rest of the cast. Especially if turtles for a while with Vanishga (can't attack, can't be attacked, but his recharge meters keep ticking!). Has the advantage against Melee-types like Filo. That's it! The better speed and durability make him a more solid Low Middle.
Balthier - Fast! Durable-ish! Auto-wins against pure Melee-types due to re-applicable infinite 100% Immobilize. Average damage, some buffing, and 2-turn 100% Disable status. Immune to Blind! Spoiling Melee-range fighters alone nets him High Middle.
Fran - My kneejerk was 'Man she sucks'. But that's mostly just her status-game. Kytes just does it better. All of her status requires her to use a 'turn' to add the status to her weapon and -then- she can apply it 100% with her slow-ish physical until it wears off. And none of the statuses are all that great or long-lasting. However, she can pull near-OHKO damage off in turn 1 with Barrage+Hunter's Monograph (241), so she's a Heavy. Crazy. She also has a shot of near-full Healing to outlast most of the cast. Durability's not great. Low Heavy.
Ashe - Cast-best dueller. Due to the weird RW damage formula, if she equips the FullForce passive (increased Str/Mag when at full health), she can do crazy overkill damage with an opening Pyrotechnics attack. However, she's also the lucky PC who got the Ribbon, so it's quite possible she'll need to opt for Monarch's Monograph for status immunity instead of FullForce. She's the only PC who can hit Physical and Magical defenses with any decent proficiency. And all of her attacks are innately GT. She also has Hastega and Regenga to balance out the skillset. She's fairly average durability/speed though, and if something pokes her before she can use Pyrotechnics+FullForce, then she's doing about half the damage. High Heavy/Low Godlike.
Basch - It's Captain Basch! Physical durability of the gods + Protectga/Shellga/Regen! He also gets damage that actually registers with his basic physical, though it's thunder-reliant. Alternately, he can spam Flash of Steel fairly regularly (once every four turns!) with some awesome front-ended damage from Shining Ray if he forgoes the Tyrfing for the non-elemental Excalibur. His speed ends up pretty average in practice, so he's not too bad off. He also has the '1.3x Str when user's HP is below 25%' passive ability to deal with stallers. Just lasting long enough to get off more than one use of Shining Ray is probably enough to get to Heavy.
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Figured I might as well also start posting these here since I don't believe that Contenders really get any views besides myself normally!
Lost Odyssey Final Rankings
Kaim- 3.6. About what I predicted midway through. Average damage, 167% HP! and fast. Decent high Middle slugfester, doesn't have the punch for Heavy.
Seth- 3.5. 140% HP, but more speed than Kaim. Not enough to be a winning trade, I think.
Jansen- 3.3. Weirdo. Can OHKO off 50% speed or can fatal status at 67%. Both of these are cheating off a very last second doublecast. Bad HP, but enough to at least function in Middle. And I thought his status wouldn't be good!
Cooke- 2.5. Well, I was wrong about Blind taking 2 turns! Instead it's only 67% speed, and she still has 50% HP and 10HKO. Cover...almost gives her a semblance of a strategy in Light against those that don't OHKO her. Still miraculous to have that HP, speed and damage and even get a 2.5.
Mack- 3.2. Higher than I thought, but Fear kind of cheats. Gives him normal physical spoiling at the least, which is pretty good for Light (Especially since he's decent otherwise)
Ming- 2.8. Can put Cooke's strategies to better use with a good extra chunk of HP and non-fail damage (Although...slower. Slower is the killer)
Sarah- 2.8. See Ming. I was wrong! They have one stat difference..for some reason.
Tolten- 3.65. Yeah, he also cheats in order to get this ranking. Gets the unique +40% HP to give him Seth's HP, speed is solid, and also has the option to switch out to an elemental immunity accessory. Throw in Guts to give him an extra durability kick,
Sed- 3.3. Has the physical speed, but not the durability of the others. Auto-Shield and Barricade are better in game than the DL. Status immunity is nice, but doesn't match Tolten's options.
And just for my own amusement, since I'll have a few more games to throw out somewhat soon, going to keep a random number log.
Tolten- 3.65
Kaim- 3.6
Seth- 3.5
Jansen- 3.3
Sed- 3.3
Mack- 3.2
Ming- 2.8
Sarah- 2.8
Cooke- 2.5
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Dhyer are you sure Sleep isn't good? I remember testing and believing Sleep -> Stone was a 100% perfect victory strategy provided the enemy was vulnerable.
Atelier Rorona:
Rorona: Godlike. Take her down in one turn or burn. Damage is insane, has buffing that makes Cecilia envious, and immunity to status/ID through equips.
Cory: Ligggght. Bad stats in general (although Rorona would like them, if only for the speed. Ironic)
Lionela: Light. Not a bad one if she can get going due to the infinite healing, but she isn't likely to take advantage of that due to speed/durability woes.
Iksel: Light. His damage is poor and he can't do much else. Tends to lose initiative too.
Sterk: Middle. Great HP and damage. Tends to lose initiative but he can take a hit to make up for it.
Tantris: Middle: Decent damage and almost always goes first. Not much else though.
Gio: Middle. Speed, durability, and damage. He gets all three right, even if he doesn't stand out as awesome at anything in particular.
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All LO Status came out to 100% when not against immunity. I just thought things were bad going through the midgame since you never have any idea what status to actually use against enemies. I just remember running into walls when I tried to use it in game, making me think little of it.
I believe that Sleep only lasts 1 turn in practice, so Ming and Sarah get nothing out of it. Jansen already has Stone+Stone, although if Sleep+Stone had the same effect, I suppose it could help if he ran into Stone halving and needed more turns to cast spells, but Stone+Stone doublecast is already cheating and the reason he really can stay afloat in Middle.
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I'll have to check some things when I get my copy back, but I recall Sleep -> Stone -> Stone being 100% effective, so Sleep must have lasted more than 1 turn...
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My notes have it having a 40% chance to wear off a round. I didn't test Petrify's chance of freezing up an enemies' action for a turn, but I'd gut check 50%. So the strategy definitely can theoretically work, but not great on average. Chances are that Stone->Stone is more effective in terms of chances in terms of shutting down enemy turns.
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Fire Emblem 8 (As a warning, I see very a good chunk of ITE not getting around FE evade. This is generally in games where just a specific type of damage just never hits evade so Grandia techs, Disgaea 1 techs, etc... as well as most magic.
Eirika- 4.3. 56% Evasion, 53% Damage, Average Durability. Evasion is great, but nowhere near the punch to deal with Godlike. Also yeah, Alfina crushes her like twice over since her Paralysis is one of the few moves that would deal with Eirika's evade (Others include Swift, maybe FF 6 ITE).
Ephraim- 4.45. 67% Damage, 1.35 Pdur, 36% Evasion, 30% Ranged Counter Option. Solid at slugging, but not Godlike level still. This Eph versus Sharon is a good fight.
Tana- 4.55. 46% Damage, 76% Evasion, Ranged Option. Good against all status, wicked evade. Effectively durable. Yuki's ITE...yeah, FE Evade gets everything, so normal damage in G3 just being ITE doesn't do it against Tana. That match is weird though. If he hits, he hits a weakness and he stalls with Shadow Warrior (Throw in potential half SP, and that is a really back and forth one)
L'Arachel- 3.4. 40% Damage, 40% Evade. Evade helps with Pdur a lot. Respect for FE evade could help her get to Heavy...at 20/12, which she doesn't get! Losing a chunk of evade and HP hurts. Average Middle though. Best non-Athos mage if she got full levels maybe (Ewan might be better)
Lute- 3.25. Moderate Evade helps balance defense, counters, etc...Solid enough for Middle. Would rethink match versus Peter.
Franz/Forde- 3.6. Jeez, actually looking at their ability to manipulate the Weapon Triangle makes them nasty against a lot of fighters. Basically average evade to 70% or so percent. They really don't like mages much.
Garcia- 2.5. 29% Damage, Durability isn't of note, not evading. Any of the status running around Light is going to rape him. Honestly, Irenes one shot of healing deals with him with that damage. Kind of bad on top of no plot. Ew.
Joshua- 3.8. 40% Damage, 54% Evasion. Low Heavy, and not overly impressive. Evasion is very very meh for his class. Toadstool may take him, although that's a good match now.
Marisa- 4.05. 40% Damage, 73% Evasion. Marisa though, has a major extra chunk of evasion, if worse concrete durability. She's solidly Heavy whereas Joshua definitely isn't.
Cormag- 3.45. 49%. Pdur is great, Mdur is not. Middle. Not horribly effective different than the ranked Paladins at the end of the day if it wasn't for the few durability holes and that they have hit the triangle and he can't (Does hit the best part of it of course!)
Myrrh- 4.55. Borderline- Damage is...at least enough to start scoring some OHKOes on the frail. Defenses are amazing, defenses against physical/non-typed status is not. That's what holds her back.
Seth- 2.8. Average Physical with slightly below average stats...minus evade which sucks. Zhuzhen likely just outslugs (Balance with Zhuzhen now having more trouble...kind of against Garcia. Garc is still bad too, so not a big one). Can gain some evasion, although nothing amazing.
Gerik- 3.6. Cormag with much better defenses and no weaknesses.
Artur- 2.6. Not a good Light. Bad Pdur with bad evasion, less damage than Lute and L'Arachel too. Does have an argument for Ivaldi (And truth be told, a far better argument that say Joshua and Audhulma, which isn't even enough to be considered).
Saleh- 2.4. At least Artur has the Mdur.
Knoll- 3.2. Given his Pdur, if he meets a physicaller who can get around counters, he'll probably end up crunched. Still Nosferatu is solid against those he can counter and Mdur.
Ewan- 3.5. Unlike Knoll, if a fighter can get around counters, they still have to get around Thunder's evasion. Between the two strategies, he cleans up pretty decently. Funnest PC unranked from the game (And yet, the fodder level is quite high!)
Colm- 4.25. Average damage, but 76% Evade. Doesn't have Tana's ranged option and Mdef, but has better HP (And no weaknesses). Big losing trade since he's hit by a lot more status turn 1, but he's definitely a solid Heavy
Duessel- 2.4. Is horrible, and probably should have lost to Mint (struggles to 4HKO=not putting pressure on her), and doesn't really even have the plot for ranking. Can use all 3 weapons like Forde/Franz, but it's completely irrelevant because he's not evading.
Neimi- 3.45. Doesn't have the evade for Heavy although it's still quite nice. No counter option either, but evade works for this.
Innes- 2.5. Below average in every way, although rankable at least. Of all the S-rank weapons, he has the closest intersection of gameplay and plot backing to actually get it (Since...bows are bad, and Neimi may just not use them enough to get an S in game. Still not allowing it; with it though, he gets a lot more evasion and damage, which at least makes him a good Light)
Rennac- 2.4. Lol. Evade is outweighed by defenses, 2nd worst damage. Even going first he may lose to Cai. The Pdur and bad damage combo don't really work. Along with Duessel and Saleh, the kind of worthless ranking portion.
Lyon- ????. Let's say...1 PC HP damage ish. Defenses help, although yeah....you kind of smash him to bits regardless. Gets in last strike, so he's kind of a mess to rank. Support is not good, so...well, HP could be 0.5ish. However, at 0.5, defenses make him pretty solid. I'd say especially against the short range...but that implies that he moves. So no, no counters, which means...that he'll often be eating two enemies attacks before attacking, which is not good. Eh, pondering.
Valter- 2.75. Okay, I objectively see why he could be good. He can double and crit you to death! He...may not move and also has pretty bad HP. A lot better if he moves, if he doesn't, Light.
Caelleach- Does this one move? Bad HP, isn't killing in a hit. It's a Light.
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Valter and Caellach don't move in the English version of the game, no.
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Hmm, I'm trying to think of what can possibly save them because the defenses aren't enough, they aren't boxed in a particular way that at least make it hard to melee them to death, and the HP just doesn't function well even against 2 PCs attacking. Anything I might be missing?
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Those evade numbers look high, did you change the way you scale them?
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Evasion numbers are scaled the same way. The biggest non-level change is Tana, who went from 61% in Pyro's topic to 76%. By the time it's down to Ephraim (moderate evade level), the numbers are even. I could have juiced Hit by 5 more, but it wouldn't have changed the results by too much since the enemies just are not good at hitting. The big changes were the people who gained a good number of more levels (up to 7).
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Wait, I see what this is about now, didn't notice your new stat topic.
Is that how you personally take FE now, or do you still set average evade at/around 0% vs average accuracy no matter what enemies in game are like? I still favor that second method.
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The average still comes out to 0, regardless of what in game enemies are like. Probably just forget to specifically mention it in this topic. For the 76% evasive Tana's, you have the Duessel's and Garcia's running around. Just the people with bad evasion aren't as badly penalizes DL wise since most of the DL tends to have non-fail accuracy.
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Eternal Poison (Note, this is assuming equal levels, and no overlevelled equips. I will say that if it was really relevant, I don't think I'd apply equal levels. Thage and Marie might get a few extra and say...damage only, not-great at in game damage, non-buffers might lose a few. So Nena, Ares...etc)
Thage- 3.85- Low Heavy could work. Major flaw: The Pdur is about 60%, and she's marginally below average speed. Against the Fear susceptible though, it's OHKO her or die. Still, 60% Pdur (Might be above average speed with an extra level or two!)
Raki- 3.5. Fast, 2HKO (albeit...barely) or a turn 3 Fear inducer. Works for a solid high-mid Middle
Retica- 3.4. Without turn 1-2 fear, he'd be a Light. Fear is awesome.
Irina- 2.6. Hovers on a 3-4HKO, slightly slow, slightly undurable. Healing exists but is about 65%; however, if she can get the drop on blunt physicallers, she can hold her own. Resists aren't great. Okay Light.
Olifen- 3.75. Fast 2HKO (albeit only 2 shots of it and it's only 60%ish) and solid Pdur. Doesn't feel like the potency for Heavy is there, but...maybe. Magic backup....could be much worse, I suppose.
Logue- 3.15. Slow, very borderline 2HKO with some tanking. Alexei is notably better DL wise (Fracture is awesome, slow is...less so and Alexei has 10% more HP)
Levatte- 2.6. The rare story PC Light! Good at busting mages in a way (Confuse, AntiMagic) although...not great, he's wallable, he's slow, bad Pdur
Marie- 3.25. Fast, 50% damage and the 100% Confuse option. Bad translation here! Slashing art...could be of use at times.
Ashley- 3.2. Passable damage, decent healing off non-horrid Pdur, a few backup statuses. Lowish Middle works.
Reyna- 3.15. Fast, nice evade and some beneficial resists, decent durability. This works.
Glynne- 3.15. Durable and fast with passable damage. Ashley's path PCs feel similar in power
Alexei- 3.4 Awesome Pdur overall, although Mdur (especially to Fire, Wind and Holy) isn't good. Mainly works on smashing physicallers, and getting a 2HKO with Fracture in play. Berserker is good against healers.
Nena- 2.25. Slow with the bad, bad Pdur and some of the worst pure mage damage (Average! But still). Curse is an okay status, but doesn't get basic physicals. Often just gets outslugged. Sucked in game too!
Komori- 2.85. Fairly good Light. Damage isn't bad, good magic and physicals options, stats are averagish. No strengths, but no flaws, which works well in Light.
Vivian- 2.9. Fast+A few okay status options, as well a passable physical backup. Nice elemental resist set (40% on Fire at least)+Confuse to wreck some mages and healer types.
Velnor- 2.6. Meh. Irina without even the limited options really. That said, with evade and slashing art, can throw swordfighters for a loop
Ares- 3.65. Fast 2HKO (albeit only 2 shots of it) and solid Pdur. Doesn't feel like the potency for Heavy is there. Is Olifen with worse resists
Yuri- 2.4. Perfect Slow? Bad status to get. Otherwise, lots of healing, but bad Pdur. Still, faster and more damaging than Nena!
Stein- 2.75. If he lives two turns, Fear! So, he devours the slower. Not great, but works decently in Light.
Number Log
Thage- 3.85
Olifen- 3.75
Ares (EP)- 3.65
Tolten- 3.65
Kaim- 3.6
Seth- 3.5
Raki (EP)- 3.5
Alexei (EP)- 3.4
Retica (EP)- 3.4
Jansen- 3.3
Sed- 3.3
Marie (EP)- 3.25
Ashley (EP)- 3.2
Mack- 3.2
Glynne (EP)- 3.15
Logue (EP)- 3.15
Reyna (EP)- 3.15
Vivian (EP)- 2.9
Komori (EP)- 2.85
Ming- 2.8
Sarah- 2.8
Stein (EP)- 2.75
Irina (EP)- 2.6
Levatte (EP)- 2.6
Velnor (EP)- 2.6
Cooke- 2.5
Yuri (EP)- 2.4
Nena (EP)- 2.25
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Eternal Poison (Note, this is assuming equal levels, and no overlevelled equips. I will say that if it was really relevant, I don't think I'd apply equal levels. Thage and Marie might get a few extra and say...damage only, not-great at in game damage, non-buffers might lose a few. So Nena, Ares...etc)
Thage- 3.85- Low Heavy could work. Major flaw: The Pdur is about 60%, and she's marginally below average speed. Against the Fear susceptible though, it's OHKO her or die. Still, 60% Pdur (Might be above average speed with an extra level or two!)
Thage's preferred DL class (Pyrocaster) is actually above average speed (like 101%). Hellcaster is below average, though.
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Disallowing any equips that need someone to be over L24 throws her back down below average though (Since it tends move some of the heavy armor users to armor with notably smaller speed penalty). I believe when I looked at it, she ended up like 5 speed below average with Pyrocaster. An extra level might put her over the average, and two definitely should.
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Lightning- 3.45. Decent physical and magic options, limited but infinite healing works for stallers. Solid Middle
Sazh- 3.65. Throwing on a Damage Buffer+Haste+Defensive Buffer is very effective slugfestwise at times. Extra little gain for ability to semi-quick cast Haste or a defensive buff I suppose. Could be underrating the buff strategy
Vanille- 3.85. Healing is good and she can wrack up nasty damage on turn 2.5. Ability to full shut off enemy magic or physicals turn 1 feels like not a Middle
Fang- 4.15. Nasty Debuffing+Best Damage. Slow+Deprotect or Fain or Fog turn 1
Snow- 3.85. That stall strategy is nasty (potentially...depending on the speed)
Hope- 3.45. Has Sazh's Buffing Game complemented by healing! But also half the base damage, no physical to speak of, and a solid chunk less of starting HP. As with Sazh, I could be underrating the buff strategy
Number Log
Fang- 4.15
Snow- 3.85
Thage- 3.85
Vanille- 3.85
Olifen- 3.75
Ares (EP)- 3.65
Sazh- 3.65
Tolten- 3.65
Kaim- 3.6
Seth- 3.5
Raki (EP)- 3.5
Hope- 3.45
Lightning- 3.45
Alexei (EP)- 3.4
Retica (EP)- 3.4
Jansen- 3.3
Sed- 3.3
Marie (EP)- 3.25
Ashley (EP)- 3.2
Mack- 3.2
Glynne (EP)- 3.15
Logue (EP)- 3.15
Reyna (EP)- 3.15
Vivian (EP)- 2.9
Komori (EP)- 2.85
Ming- 2.8
Sarah- 2.8
Stein (EP)- 2.75
Irina (EP)- 2.6
Levatte (EP)- 2.6
Velnor (EP)- 2.6
Cooke- 2.5
Yuri (EP)- 2.4
Nena (EP)- 2.25
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Grandia 3 Main PCs
Yuki- 3.9. Flash is notably better than Shadow Warrior at ensuring Yuki doesn't get hit. No real change. Spoil or die generally, but still has a 2HKO ITE damage.
Ulf- 4.2. Notable drop since I don't give Dynamite Rush much respect. Shadow Warrior is okay...but if he's going Shadow Warrior+Physical, my gut is that someone will get through eventually (Will not work versus say...Claude and Ripper Blast. Guess ARPG people with healing might be the ones he dislikes, but those are rare).
Alfina- 3.65. Ouch, that's a drop. Basically, hopes to 2HKO with Armaggedeon+Meteor Strike via doubling after the Speed drop. Can't deal with good Earth resistance. Technically her versus Eileen, which happened this season...ugh. Alfina wastes a lot of SP trying to tie down with Paralysis, which is rendered irrelevant by the fact that she has issues damaging Eileen. Hard to see her in Heavy now. Too many gaps.
Dahna- 2.9. Goal is unleashing 3HKO (Over 6 turns, but those last 5 turns average 175% speed) damage while tying enemy up in status. Silence is nice for those it applies to. Confuse won't keep people fully locked down, but at least takes out every other turn. Burnstrike has a nice delay effect on enemies. Suspect durability feels like it keeps her in Light, but versatile strategies makes her great there.
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This feels as good a place as any to discuss FF13 rankings!
Lightning- 3.45. Decent physical and magic options, limited but infinite healing works for stallers. Solid Middle
Sazh- 3.65. Throwing on a Damage Buffer+Haste+Defensive Buffer is very effective slugfestwise at times. Extra little gain for ability to semi-quick cast Haste or a defensive buff I suppose. Could be underrating the buff strategy
Vanille- 3.85. Healing is good and she can wrack up nasty damage on turn 2.5. Ability to full shut off enemy magic or physicals turn 1 feels like not a Middle
Fang- 4.15. Nasty Debuffing+Best Damage. Slow+Deprotect or Fain or Fog turn 1
Snow- 3.85. That stall strategy is nasty (potentially...depending on the speed)
Hope- 3.45. Has Sazh's Buffing Game complemented by healing! But also half the base damage, no physical to speak of, and a solid chunk less of starting HP. As with Sazh, I could be underrating the buff strategy
Lightning - Yeah, it's been said. Middle of some sort. On reflection she is stunningly similar to Snow, weirdly (see below). Has her own ups (better magic damage) and downs (less HP for quick slugfests).
Sazh - I dunno, his base damage is poor, which certainly hurts his slugging potential (and Brave isn't that amazing at only +40%). Buffs... aren't nearly as good in the DL as in-game (Haste is only a 27% boost unless it also speeds up animtion times, which I haven't noticed) because of the way shorter battles. Even against a pure average dueller with only one damage type who goes after him, for instance, Sazh needs 5 turns to win which come about as fast as the average dueller's four. He 4HKOs, and makes average duellers (low) 4HKO unless they're elemental. This is a problem. Light/Middle, wanted Medic so badly.
Vanille - Healing is good, but not full (72% at best, gets slightly worse the higher her HP is). Fog and Pain... yeah, good stuff there. She can't really -blitz- but she can set up 2HKOs with Deshell or just wait for Death if she needs to stall. Status-immune Heavies probably heal-lock her on average, though. Still, no question that's where she belongs. Heavy.
Fang - Pretty clearly the cast-best dueller I think? 2HKOs to start with (Deprotect + Slow generally lets her smash everyone), has Fog+Pain. MEDIGUARD STALL exists but I really doubt it works much in Heavy. Not sure about that Godlike hype, but could be underestimating her in practice. High Heavy at worst though.
Snow - MEDIGUARD STALL. 20% regen and multiples damage received by 56% (the enemy just attacks while his ATB gauge refills), on top of his 1.25 durability. However, Mediguard is such a slow action (at least 2.5 seconds, which makes a Snow round take over 2x as long as average) they most duellers can chip in one turn at 20% damage too. So... anyone with infinite >33% damage overwhelms this strategy. Lots of Light lacks that at least! Plenty of Middles and some Heavies too. And even if he's forced into pure slugging... there's worse than "3HKO average and don't get 3HKOed by them". Feels better than Sazh certainly, but not sure exactly where he ends up though. Middle.
Hope - Unlike Sazh, Hope actually -can- fight long battles of the type seen in FF13, so he's much better off. Haste+Protect/Shell then dig in. Of course, Protect/Shell doesn't get him much above average, but he's still ultimately a better healer than Vanille is, and can keep piling on more buffs during doubleturns. Bar spells also help his game, letting him tank elemental attacks Shell wouldn't be enough against. Lacks a good way to put people away like the saboteurs but the best of the stallers, Middle/Heavy.
EDIT: The above assumes no skills from secondary roles (Aside from Attack/Ruin). However, I'm not by any means certain I don't allow any, still deciding. If I do, looks like a few people definitely get a bit better.
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Brigandine. Phear the power. Not sure anyone rises even above average Middle thanks to the joy of elemental reliance.
Cai: 2.9. A slow 2HKO, or try to Heal-Counter (Which is not greatly effective, but doesn't really get him doubled, and let's him do about a little more than PC HP before running out of gas, especially since he can finish with a spell at no speed hit), and a fairly solid Silence spell. Flaw is that anyone a bit good at physical slugging is pretty going to take him out (Minus if silence hits them...but still doesn't feel like a Middle)
Cador: 3.15. Solid durability and speed. He gets...one Curse! Which is limited, but has uses, but still just a kind of there slugger. Easily stymied by 2 elemental resistances.
Dryst: 3.3. Cador (More PDur, less Mdur) but with some actual MP. Now can almost kill with Magic, meaning he deals with SR a tad better. Power is solid too (Power turn 1, Counter, Kill Turn 2)
Lance: 3.15. A level of redundancy! Doesn't have Dryst's stats and is slower, but Heal+Counter strategy is not bad and gives him an extra edge.
Lyonesse- 2.9. Worse stats than Cai, but a much better status.
Vaynard- 3.2. Stats and MP. Sure, marginally above Lance
Zemeckis- 3.3. Nasty archer type. Devour the SR fighters, is otherwise a solid fast sluggers (And redundancy! Including with the elemental reliance with makes me lower his score)
Escalados- 3.2. Fast, tanky, decent damage. Low but not horrible Middle.
Dinadin- 3.2. Doesn't have the magic damage like Lance, but better durability+speed makes him come in range at least.
Loufal- 2.65
Paternus- 3.05. Borderline? Status isn't as accurate as Lyonesse, but hordes more HP.
Bilcock- 2.75.
Bagdemagdus- 3.2. Cador + (At least...+HP)
Meltorfas- 2.65
Isfas- 3.2
Batercus- 3.2
Gish- 2.65. Oof. The slow 2HKO with the bad durability. Works in game, less DL. At least his durability is okay for a mage.
Zerafin- 2.3
Morholt- 2.4
Shiraha- 3.3. HP+Evade+Low, low turn 2 fatal status of 2 types. Sure.
Esmeree- 3.05. Paternus with tad less durability
Filo- 2.5. A test in how good using only the Heal strategy is! Probably beats the pure damage mages, although Filo is decently durable for the type, so that helps.
Lecarra- 2.85. Lyonesse switching elements and worse status accuracy (but still turn 1)
Millia- 2.6. Loses the damage option.
Millet- 2.6. Loses the Healing option.
Iria- 3.45.
Brangien- 3.3. Shiraha with much less durability, but the range option!
Merriot- 3.2. Brangien without the evasion.
Bahamut- 3.2
Bronze Golem- 2.5
Dao Class- 2.6
Death Needle- 2.25
Fairy- 1. Wants GE so badly. Too bad, because the evade+occasional evil counters count be potent if there was just some base that didn't suck.
Fafnir- 2.95. Would be Middle if wasn't for elements
Fenrir- 2.75
High Centuar- 2.75
Holygriff- 2.9
Lizard Guard- 2.65
Maneater- 2.8
Nightmare- 2.35
Pegasus- 3.0
Phoenix- 2.95
Poseidon- 2.65
Salamander- 2.95
Satan- 2.65
Seraph- 3.2
Tiamat- 3
Titan- 2.75
Vampire Lord- 2.8
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Athos- 4.1. Well, I think I allow Nosfe now. Losses...well, deserved all plus another for Gruga. Even with allowed Nosfe counters, this doesn't feel much different. Good Heavy, but spoilable.
Bartre- 2.9. Average damage, decent concrete durability. Don't even think about evasion or status resistance. (Compared to
Canas- 3.45. Pdur is solid, and he can deal well with pure SR fighters, especially with Nosfe. Mdur+the Anima evasion is also quite cool.
Dart- 3.3. Um, should have no DL wins for sure. Overhyped doubler case case. Damage is a solid 2HKO, but Sara easily outslug and that doesn't kill Ana in a hit.
Dorcas- 2.6. Bartre with less everything.
**Boot bait. Don't need him and Bartre, and I'd take the one who is notably better.
Eliwood- 2.55. Below average at everything. Hates late promotion, hard to see better than Dorcas.
Erk- 3.05. Low low Middle Basically good against SR fighters, but nothing special at all.
**Comparable to Lute, who I would rank a bit lower now.
Fiora- 3.4. Sword Evasion is cool, mildly whatever beyond that. But Beowulf? Really?
**Boot bait. No plot and pretty much mehish all around
Florina- 3.8. Evasion! Her only real stat, but it's an effective one. Enough for Heavy? Feels borderline thanks to flaws
**Comparable to...well, not Tana! That's a whole division split
Guy- 3.8. Hmm, few trades with Florina. Better Pdur, worse Mdur, no weakness, but his one advantage is lost against Lances. No Range. Feels even.
**Very even to Joshua in most ways.
Hawkeye- 3.0. Bartre with Mdur. Since...yeah, averaging evasion into status, that's not so impressive. But borderline!
Heath- 3.05. Some sword evade is all the keeps him over Hawkeye (And that Mdur is so much worse...and weaknesses). Not really impressive.
Hector- 3.85. Pdur and a low 2HKO. Option of making that Pdur crazy with Armads is good enough for low Heavy, although he probably loses to average single mage or statuser in the division
Isadora- 2.85. Can deal with some fighters thanks to evade, but dull/plotless/weak/too many of her class...etc
**Super boot bait. Realized I hadn't given her a number when I realized that there needed to be another Paladin I would boot.
Jaffar- 3.2. General DL path is about right. Evade is a general cute thing but his isn't so high, so most Middle's don't have issues. Anti Healing helps.
**Boot bait. Eh here, but Nino is horrible and that's his big plot tie. Indifference to a degree.
Kent- 3.25 Paladins tend to be underhyped. 50% Evasion to lots of physical types, some range. Not loving magic I guess.
**FE 8 Pallys are better since they have about 70% Evasion to physical types, and that split feels notable.
Legault- 3.8. Seeing FE evade get nearly everything makes him quite durable. But damage blows! Still, that's like 3 effective durability!
**Boot bait. He's not bad, but eh. Not that unique a build (Marisa-), and relatively Light on everything hing else.
Louise- 3.05. Evade is just enough for Middle.
**Boot bait.
Lowen- 3.05. Defense+Physical Evasion. Mages blow right past him, but a lot for Light. Actually okay with him as a rank, he's kind of unique.
Lucius- 2.75. He can 2HKO some undurable fighters or 3HKO some slower ones. They do need to be slower or non-durable though! And not block Holy.
**Artur with more damage. Has the bad FE mage build DLwise.
Lyn- 4.15. Legault with more damage
Marcus- 2.4. Well, not all paladins are underhyped.
**Boot bait. Just horrible on a superoverrepresented calss.
Matthew- 3.7. Legault minus some defenses. Enough to barely keep him on the other side
Nino- 1.
**BOOT BAIT X 100. 50% PDur! 5HKOs!
Oswin- 3.2.
Pent- 3.15.
Priscilla. 2.9. May have less damage than Lucius, but that evasion is worth so much more.
Rath- 3.15. I might keep him in for in game use (And hey, then it's 2 of 4 archers), although he doesn't really have anything objective recommending him.
Raven- 3.3
Rebecca- 3.75. That level of evasion is clearly something I find impressive, but little less Pdur than she wants solidly.
Renault- 2.5. Hey, doesn't compare as badly to Lucius as one might think...
Sain- 3.5. 2HKO! Physical Evasion.
Serra- 3.5. Evasion!
**When I ranked FE 8 I thought L'Arachel might be better, but Serra has more evasion. So second best FE DL mage minus if Ewan was ranked.
Vaida- 3. Spear might be enough to get borderline since it makes her the only physical counterer worth much to me.
Wil- 2.9
**Boot bait.
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I'd disagree about Marcus being boot-bait. He has a fair bit of plot and is probably the most-talked about unit from the game that I've seen, certainly once you exclude the lords and a few real fan favourites. Yeah, he's pretty mediocre, but that's pretty evident and he manages to have competitive matches in Light, which seems fine to me.
I pretty much agree with most everything else you said, minus weapon triangle respect (I either half its effectiveness against non-FE opponents, or only see it working on offense... not sure which). Well, not sure about Serra as 3.5 either, her evade isn't -that- great (especially if she uses anything heavier than Light) and her damage is really bad.
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I think I halve weapon triangle effects, but the half just happens to be the defensive side (I don't suppose I really have a reason, just gut reaction). Either other view does make it pretty marginal (halving both effects. At least to me, since I doubt that gets the evade to the point it matters). I guess it also gave a few people a unique method of standing out, which is always a boon (Especially because the games really need it to me!).
49% Evade is pretty solid since FE's evade is so inclusive (I see maybe Swift and maybe some FF 6 stuff keeping ITE properties against in the DL, but almost nothing else that I can think of), although I may have ranked a bit high there. I was going somewhat off gut reactions at that point, but I have a lot of respect for the high end evade. Great Mdef helps against mages, evasion+Counters against lots of physical fighters.
Marcus is the most talked about. I'm...surprised there. I wouldn't say that he has competitive matches in Light. 0-4 (in fairness, one of those was Flonne, where he should win. It should say something though that he's 0-4 and the only one I would change is Flonne).
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Marcus vs. Milich is competetive, Garet/Peco are two of the better Lights and obviously out of his league. I think I'm just less bothered by ranking people below 2.5 than you are. <.<
Also, don't see what's so upsetting about Beowulf vs. Fiora. Beo's status checks both MDef and evasion, Fiora has both (though admittedly, not amazing at the latter). Just eying your own numbers, her res reduces Sleep (the status he'd be using here) to 37%, and then her evasion which you list as 23% drops that to 28.49%. I'm sure there are some scalings of status, shield blocking, other variables, etc., which would let Beowulf win but it doesn't take any remote stretches to see otherwise!
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Yeah, I just really don't like anyone who falls below 2.4 (Unless they are just crazy skewed for stats). But weak and basically below average at everything is the recipe for seasons of endless Light boredom.
EFiora...3HKOs normally, 4HKOs against Beowulf's HP, at best will 5HKO throwing in evade (And hey, she wants evasion, she wants swords, so don't even need to worry about extra acc). Stacking her RES as subtractive and evasion as divisive, she pushes Paralysis to turn 3 and Stone to turn 4. Beowulf is 85% speed, so he's 7-6ed by average (Fiora). So yeah, this view is pretty much taking the realistic worst to me (for Beowulf, since it's taking the status resistance based on his game. Based on her game, he looks at turn 3 fatal status instead), and she still loses.
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Beowulf's HP is only good if he can win quickly (which he can't here), otherwise he needs to equip a robe for MP (or use turns on Aspil I guess, but he doesn't have those). Paralysis isn't even worth bringing up since it lasts for less than two Beowulf turns, so yeah, it's all about stone here probably (my bad for bringing up sleep, it's better due to duration but still not worth it).
That said, even if you do end up siding with Beowulf, I more object to the "Really?" you threw into the comment there. Should not be even remotely hard to see how Fiora wins, particularly to people who factor in defender's speed into FE PC offence (e.g. I'd be surprised if she doesn't 3-round by my scaling).
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I'll admit, probably an overreaction due to several hours of straight number crunching, finding Beowulf very cool, finding Fiora very dull in the DL (even within the FE context. Redoing the topics I at least find that I find some people more interesting because I can find niches for them that weren't strongly advertised before, but Fiora is just kind of a lackluster variant of several others), finding Fiora dull period, and seeing it as a pretty clear victory for Beowulf! Flip is I didn't realize how quickly he can veer into MP woes, so I was wrong on that part at least.
Also, factoring in defender speed doesn't change anything here since Fiora already has a 100% double rate (I'm still iffy on where I fall there, but only matters for her potentially against speedsters unless you want to have that check evade).
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FF13 cast ratings!
Light- 3.3. She's a pretty average middle. She doesn't 2HKO average, her healing is less than half and her durability is unremarkable. The tricks do add up to be enough to keep her afloat in the division though.
Sazh- 2.7. Bad. Below average damage (As a COMMANDO. Wow.), buffs that aren't very good, and no healing.
Vanille- 4.1. She can spoil certain bosses and slug down low heavies, but for the most part she lives and dies on her status.
Fang- 4.3. Very good high heavy, mixes status and damage and some commando tanking. Can't handle most heavy bosses, which keeps her in check in the division. PC's rarely beat her in Heavy unless they are evasion whores or status immune blitzers.
Snow- 3.8. Can stall and spoil enough to float in lower heavy. Really wishes he had a little more damage for blitzing though.
Hope- 3.5. Good Middle and nothing else. The HP keeps him in check.
The After Years! Using the assumption here that Lurker used in his topic with some modifications. (Don't think I'd vote that way if it was up for serious ranking, but this works for theorycrafting). I didn't allow the rares (Ribbon/Crystal Ring/Assassin dagger) that the entire cast wanted.
Ceodore: 4.2. Surprisingly good for someone with poor base damage. Blink+reflect shuts down a lot of fighters, and he can haste/awaken to take out healers. Plus he has the usual Paladin status defense.
Cecil: 3.5. Status immune, durable, above average speed! Just has literally no other tricks to his name. His damage isn't especially great either.
Rosa: 4.3. Roughly the same as her FF4 form for me. She's a little frailer and a little slower, but that's it.
Kain: 4.1. Really wishes he had Curaga. Haste and Hold are good, general tankiness is excellent. Jump has the usual problems, but it makes for a good finisher/way to avoid damage.
Rydia: 4.2. Like Rosa, she isn't changed that much between forms. She's a hair more durable now, spells are a little slower. It balances.
Edge: 4.2. He gains a little durability and some damage- he just 2HKOs with Fumas now. He can outslug bad heavy bosses now too.
Cid: 2.2. Oh my god. >_< He was slow enough in FF4, and TAY made it worse. His durability's worse now! Damage is better, but not by enough to matter. He'll outslug some bad fighters and elementally reliant mages, but that's it.
Yang: 3.8. Remix of his PSP form. He trades some durability and speed (still excellent in both) for damage.
Palom: 3.7. He's slower now! But whoof, he gained some durability, which is a winning tradeoff in his case. Damage and status are still crazy good for the division.
Porom: 3.7. See Palom. She's still heal locked by average damage which hurts, but... yeah. She likes shiny stat boosts.
Edward: 2.1. (Tenatively don't allow the item healing, 2.7 with it). Damage is miserable and he's lost a lot of speed from his 4a form. He can uh try using BARDSONG!??!?! That's not a bad idea persay, even random status is less sad than his awful damage.
Luca: 2.5. Slow 3HKO. Durability should win her some fights at least.
Ursula: 3.4. Godly speed, average durability and meh damage. Wins most of her fights by going first and statusing out foes. That's still enough to carry her into Middle.
Leonora- 3.4. Porom-. She gets eaten alive by an average FE fighter and most bosses, but beats the hell out of those who can't kill he fast.
Gekkou- 3.6. Weird fighter. Durable, 2HKOs thanks to throw, but below average speed and has no status. This works.
Zangestu- 2.8. Blitz is okay damage and and he has some unreliable status to back it up.
Izayoi: 2.7. Has enough status to stay afloat in light. Healing lets her outslug worst of the ID immune.
Tsukinowa: 2.9. Light is mage heavy enough to make his Mirage/Image strategy work. He can't really beat mages or those with ITD.
Harley: 1.5. *Flush* Rule of Makalov applies here. I bet she was secretly godlike in FF4, but sex with edward crippled her.
Golbez: 3.5. Slowish 2HKO, but on the durable side which helps. Wishes he had some status attacks.
Calca: 1.2. Has literally nothing.
Brina: 1.2. See Calca.
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Topic resurrect! Large one too!
Fire Emblem X
Most of my general offbeat FE views are found in my topic. Big major differences are counter allowances, evade scaling and now with FE 10, laguz scaling (Most of them are Middles to me instead of punies!)
Random questions I have left:
--Corona halves HIT not Skill. I am assuming that other occults with the same description have the same effect
--Ditto to Stun's effect being the same as Cancel/other occults with same description
--Does Pavise just get damage (meaning worthless against pure magic status in game?)
IKE- Decent 2HKO, decent ranged back up. Option for great physical tanking. Pavise...hmm, well, yeah, I'll go with it (Nihil is awesome for Ike in game for some of the best enemies; DL wise it is barely nothing. Not allowing Authority and he's the only one who has a legit claim at endgame, so...sure Pavise will just be a durability catch all). 4.35.
MIST- 2.75. An okay Light now. Still has Pdur woes, but a much better improvement.
ELINCIA- 4.2. Loses a lot of evade without Authority (which yeah, alone, and her authority is gone after C2 in game). Still backs a hell of a punch with some evade. Good Heavy; Really strong physicals may get her in a turn, but she eats things otherwise decentely.
MICAIAH- 3.35. Definitely not a Light. 60% PDur, 4HKO with Draining (Heals 75% HP, and on counters heals 150%). Hates 1-2 ranged fighters, but gets a lot of the DL. Too much for Light. Opening Recover doesn't matter as much for her.
LAURA- 3.15. 55% Pdur and horrible damage. But hey, Sleep is awesome. The way that works, she has really needs to take a hit, so...hmm, so horrible in game, but low Middle works. Not usually getting KOed in Light->Sleep smackdown.
OLIVER- 2.5. This is how you make Nosferatu fail.
RHYS- 2.15. Hates that he's the one person of his class that does not get an awesome weapon. Obviously so much worse on technicalities than FE 9. Opening turn 1 with Recover might net a few wins.
ILYANA- 2.9. 32% Damage, 75% PDur, Decent Mdur. Good Light with range counters. (Improvement over FE 9 due to PDur increase)
SOREN- 3.35. Best damage for the mages. Fighters eat a counter and an attack and die turn 1 on average to me. (Improvement over FE 9. Damage went down, Pdur went way up)
CALILL- 3.3 (More dependant on that SS weapon though!)
TORMOD- 2. Ugh. Doesn't even get the mage spoiling. (Hey look, not improved over FE 9!)
SANAKI- 2.5. Man, two special items and still horrible.
BASTIAN- 2.95. Pretty much Ilyana (Tad better overall, but yeah)
EDWARD- 3.35 Solid killing options, range for fighters. 55% Damage, 45%ish with range 2 option, Wrath below 25% HP, Concrete durability not hot with some moderate evade.
LUCIA- 2.8. Good (but not that good damage), everything else is subpar. Once again, the unimpressive SM. (No clue versus FE 9. Much better Mdur, but less relative evade)
MIA- 3.5. Damage is good and still has a bit of evade, but the evade may not be enough to average in time on average. I think being weak to being status keeps her firmly in Middle. Compared to FE 9: Better damage, concrete durability. Worse Vantage and Evade. Losing trade overall.
STEFAN- 3.8. Mia with more damage and concrete durability and less evade. Scrapes Heavy
ZIHARK- 3.35. Mia with less concrete durability and evade. Hits harder than Edward but everything else is worse.
LEONARDO- 2.4. Still sucks at damage even with that +5 Speed. All other stats pretty much suck too. Hopes to status with about 35% chance, which I guess I won't be respecting too much.
ROLF- 3.5. Good damage, durability stats are decent.
SHINON- 3.65. Rolf with a tad less damage, but notably more durability
SOTHE- 2.8. 73% Durability, 26% Damage but basically can get complete at range 2. Definitely not enough for Middle, but range counters can get some wins in Light.
HEATHER- 2.8. Good Light. Damage is not hot, but evade+2 range does decent things.
VOLKE- 3.25. 3HKO, less evade than FE 9, but gains range 2 option that is not bad.
NOLAN- 3.1. Low Middle. Okay damage, passable range 2 option. A bit whatever.
BOYD- 3.35. Decent damage that can get a low 2HKO, good Pdur (not so much Mdur though)
ARAN- 2.2. Or something.
NEPHENEE- 3.4. Nolan with better durability overall (notably enough to make a difference). Wrath being worse and my being harsher on crits than I was when I did FE 9 hurts her a lot.
MEG- 2.5. Whatever.
BROM- 3.3. Decent Physical Tanking
TAURONEO- 3.45. Least durability of the class, but most damage and Resolve effectively increases that.
DANVED- 3.25. Whatever.
JILL- Borderline 2HKO, 20% Stun, Durability average to bad. 3.2. Low-Mid Middle works.
HAAR- 3.35. Similar to Jill damage wise, pdur is a lot better though (enough to play a decent Middle physical spoiler). Oh hey, Stun is a lot better too (36% overall)
MARCIA-2.9. Horrible downgrade. Averagish overall with a few weaknesses.
TANITH- 3. Marcia with tad better stats...minus HP.
SIGRUN- 2.65
FIONA- 2.9. Damage sucks, but 35% Regen in Light is very potent as much of the damage struggles to do that much damage. Throw in healing from Sol and yeah. Stupidly good skill translation
ASTRID- 2.3
GEOFFREY- 2.75. Really needs to not come in late. Subpar.
KIERAN- 3.2. Gets Fiona's skill off much better stats. Works as low Middle.
MALAKOV- 3.15. Comes out averagish
TITANIA- 3.3. Averagish stats with borderline 2HKO damage and Counter is not horrible.
OSCAR- 3.05. Ehhh. I guess he's kind of in the middle for the class. Solid stats, but no skills of note.
RENNING- 3.15. Decent concrete durability for hte class.
On Laguz: I allow them to start at 15 energy (transformed) with one section of Olivi Grass (They can also counter then by how I view counters). In effect, they attack for a turn or two (
VOLUG- 2 guaranteed turns basically with a low 2HKO, and decent enough durability. 3.35.
NAILAH- 4.75. Smash, tank, evade. Effectively over 2 PC HP to both durabilities with FE evade. Goes down quick to Rubicant.
MUARIM- 4-5 turns to kill, which he does not on average. Pdur though allows him to buy some extra turns versus physicals. He can get average fighters, maybe...2.76. Hard to gauge.
LETHE- Cat gauges suck. Guaranteed 1 attack, 2 against slower people. Can of course kite along with Olivi Gass (Which I guess works against fellow 1R people. Just use for 8 turns at gain of 6 energy). 2HKOs with solid durability. 3.05.
MORDECAI- 3HKOs, but that transformed PDur. 3.3. Beats fighters, loses to mages
CAINEGHIS- 4.55. Best royal in game at the end I would say, but evasion here is not enough to matter. As is, giant durability hole that Nailah/Tibarn/Naesala cover. However, sick damage and endless Pdur. So...yeah, I think Brahms is a Godlike, so this (of course...I guess Brahms is also status immune...)
SKRIMIR- 3.6. Great damage (65% area), Great Pdur, Limit for more smash. Great Middle here.
RANULF- 3.2. Damage, above average general durability. Cat gauges suck though. Can grab occassional OHKOs, 2HKOs for slowly and kite versus 1 range.
KYZA- 3.05. Eh, doesn't have the PDur tanking of some other Tigers, but better damage.
LYRE- 3. Lethe minus durability. Not that either really win because of durability.
VIKA- 2.8. Well, 39% evasion. Everything else sucks, though.
NEALUCHI- 3.4. Damage is at least nearing damage, 52% evasion!! Wrath is neat too. Heavy and not a bad form with formshift, but hey, awesome for what he is.
ULKI- 3.65. Nealuchi + Damage + A hint more of evade.
JANAFF- 3.2. More damage, less evade. Horrible trade. Still that damage is good.
TIBARN- 5. Evade, and then an Evade skill, and also a lot of damage and just concrete durability.
NAESALA- 4.9. Tibarn with in practice less evade.
ENA- 2. DAT strength.
KURTHNAGA- 3.2. Interested middle. HP and defenses make him a solid tank. His damage sucks, but counters short range. Works overall (needed to join with more levels!)
NASIR- 2.65. Pdur fail. Gets some physical lights (slower, 1R) and eats mages pretty well.
GARETH- 3.3. Phys spoiler
Bosses that are worth caring about
Zelgius- Grah headache. I guess I would take him against Ike alone (aka: Eclipse is not a thing) standing on a panel. So...Zelgius has 2.5 PC HP, cuts physicals greatly, is range 1-2, but has like 24.5% damage. Nasty tank, bad damage. Oh, effectively status immune to me (anything Ike could do with status is Nihiled, out of staff range). So...4.55. Feels like a lot for Heavy. Even with just 3 Mdur, regen healing 20% of his HP a turn is a lot.
Dhesignea- Cuts 40% off physicals and magic...after cutting like 20% off the top (the DL effect of Nihil to me) and additionally some more for AS. So OHKO damage is halved, etc...HP would probably be taken against 2 PCs. My gut is after all the in game boons...65% HP range.
Sephiran- Well, half the HP of Dheggy (raw though). Gut is...40%ish area after adjustments. Translates to needing about 90% damage to OHKO him to me, and you better OHKO him. Also, that range (Could read as getting initiative on damage). 4.55 feels like again. Reems Heavy (are a few people who can OHKO him there, but yeah). Not great in Godlike. He is like a crazed version of VP 2 Alicia.
Ashera- 5. Durability is a bit nebulous for me. PC HP area, eaten by some MT (still that evade and defenses and regen, so MT is just a footrace).
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--Does Pavise just get damage (meaning worthless against pure magic status in game?)
Correct. It only works against things evade does (so not status staves, not boulders, etc.).
You forgot a rank for Dheginsea.
Sleep feels very not legal to me! Only three shots a game = no thanks. I wouldn't allow it even if it were unique to Laura, but of course in-game you also have to deal with like ten other PCs competing for it. It all adds up to a really bad idea IMO.
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Since this is bizarrely the place that people ramble about Fire Emblem rankings... some FEA thoughts, using Dark Holy Elf's topic with Brave weaponry.
Disclaimers: I allow promotion switching on a battle-by-battle basis (Cherche is a better spoiler, and Vaike can go for Sol hype when Counter is out? Fairly minor point, though.). Also, I treat Counter (the skill) literally rather than scaling the damage against the slightly-too-high-for-ingame damage average; so hit Vaike with .60 PCHP damage at close range, eat .60 PCHP damage yourself (rather than ~.40 or whatever). I'd probably be tempted to assume incoming damage of "DL average" for calculating durability rather than based on the last enemies, but the difference is incredibly minor (Elf claims it's actually .46 rather than .40, so practically irrelevant).
High Heavy Lucina
Low Heavy Vaike, Sumia, Lon'qu, Gaius, Cordelia, Say'ri, Tiki, Basilio
High Middle Chrom, Robin (w/ Asset & Flaw rotation), Cherche, Flavia
Low Middle Robin (neutral or average of all assets & flaws), Sully, Kellam, Panne, Gregor, Tharja, Anna
High Light Lissa, Virion, Stahl, Miriel, Nowi, Henry
Low Light Frederick, Ricken, Maribelle, Libra
Puny Olivia
DNR Donnel, kids.
Bosses: Gangrel is a High Heavy. Walhart is a Low Heavy. Cervantes is a Low Middle. Aversa is uh Low Middle or something (I can't really respect her HP, so even if she's doubling she still has last strike + oops I just got OHKO'd.) Meh to Excellus or Validar, don't care.
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Those look mostly right to me. I think you're underrating the dark mages a tad and would kneejerk bump both of them up a notch (Nosferatu and Ruin both steal some matches, Tomebreaker is great, etc.). I also definitely take Counter against the damage average so it's a bit less effective (hype for the "too high" damage average for it doesn't really fly to me, it's a lategame skill itself), though not sure how many matches that would swing.
The main difference, if you take 0.4 instead of the in-game 0.45, is that the tanky characters get even tankier (and vice versa). It will have a particularly pronounced effect on Tiki and Nowi who really want you to do this. For instance, Tiki's durabilities go from 3.16/3.56 to 3.95/4.68. If you're interested I'll c/p the entire durability list that way.
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Games played recently
Ni No Kuni:
Oliver: Heavy. The damage (an OHKO) is too high. Besides that he has full healing which never hurts, and is not frail.
Marcus: High Middle. That delay affect is simply awesome with the speed he brings to bear. And full healing never hurts.
Esther: Light. Damage? Durability? What are these things? Healing can keep her out of puny.... maybe.
Swaine: Light. No damage, the status is highly unreliable. The physical defense saves him from really really bad physical damage dealers I suppose. Like Esther.
Also Replayed Shining Force:
Bowie: High Middle. 2HKO damage and crazy durability. Average speed is better than slow.
Sarah: Middle. Does solid 3HKO damage either physical or magical and has healing.
Peter: Middle. A very impressive 2HKO along with excellent durability, and average speed winning tiebreaks.
Lemon: Middle/Light. Is nothing more than a physical attacker with unimpressive damage and decent durability.
Cameela: Low Middle. She has damage I suppose but no durability to speak of. Will be one-rounded by most of Middle and isn't liable to KO them.
Geshp: Middle/Heavy. Freeze 4 almost OHKOs, is gamebest ranged, and Geshp gets two actions with it. The fact that he will be splattered like a bug by anything that goes before him is a concern for him however.
Odd Eye: Middle/Heavy. Solid enough damage, but still frail. Can't say I saw the Sleep hit much if at all.
Zeon: Heavy. Loses first-strike, but one-rounds, is status immune, and is durable enough to take a few round( you can only use one ground melee against him, which makes him tankier in practice, and 500 HP is somewhere around PCHP+ like that). Probably over-hated.
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FE13 rankings now that I beat it!
The Self-Insert Who Shagged Me Robin - Speed+/Luck -. Okay, so Robin gets decent damage, a 4HKO magical offense backup, counters and Ignis. Pretty typical middle-end FE slugging package, hitting both defenses aside (which is actually a nice perk when you're countering with it). Decent enough speed to double the sluggish, too. High Middle, I guess.
Mr. Foot Into Mouth Chrom - Misses the 2HKO by a hair, but on average, due to higher trigger rate on Aether, he should manage a two-rounding. Aether, unlike in-game, doesn't help his durability much, but the offensive push is appreciated. Plus, he can do some limited counter-healing stalling. High Middle works - maybe even the borderline. But he honestly needed better stats to go any further.
Pyromania Is Healthy Frederick - Low Light. Oh wow, those stats. Frederick is amazing enough to get doubled by -Bartre- (who also one-rounds him while at it because why the fuck not). To make matters worse, he doesn't even get a gimmick like the War Clerics (hahahaha luna as a slugfest-tilting move). Beats the likes of FF5 Thief maybe and not much else.
Doodles On Strategy Books Lissa - Low Light. The clerics are unquestionably horrible. As a Sage, Lissa's durability is -awful-, but she still scrapes a 3HKO - on the other hand, mimicking Ilyana stats for your slugfesting needs is just about the worst idea you could possibly have. May as well stick to Renewal cheese in order to have a shot against the Shadies of the world, even though that gets mitigated by the shit speed more often than not.
The Woman To End All Men Sully - 3HKOs, marginally above average durability both ways, some weapon triangle manipulation being viable due to As on both Swords and Lances. Not exciting, but some shade of Middle.
Incompetent Girlscout Stahl - Actually 2HKOs average! Weapon triangle manipulation! And tanky! Too bad about the crap speed. Middle, a bit worse than Sully in spite of 2HKOing. Being borderline doubled by average as a Paladin? Really? Not sure he wants Great Knight either, since that just makes him Kellam minus (actually comfortably doubled by average and the mdur turns into a shade of junk instead of averagish).
Archest Archer Virion Ruffles - His choices are interesting. Somewhat subpar melee counters that -do- add up and bow spoiling vs. marginally better durability and considerably better damage. He approaches a 2HKO as a Sniper (which means he 2HKOs a lot of lower-end losers), but as a Bow Knight, Virion Ruffles gets a few extra niches. Probably Light/Middle either way. He's likely to be -really- good in Light.
Vaike THE VAIKE - Low Heavy. I think he wants Warrior period due to the awesome melee spoiling and very solid 2HKO. Slow (as in doubled by average slow), but he can take hits and dishes it back nicely. As a Hero, Axebreaker and Sol are interesting and he still 2HKOs, but Counter is way bigger a spoiling threat. Counter+Brave Axe counter+Vaike's turn = holy crap that's a -lot- of damage, even though I scale Counter against the damage average.
Propitious Optimally Scientific Rigor Miriel - High Light. I suspect she wants Sage in spite of the egregious durability. As a Sage, she usually kills people who 2HKO her but are slower, due to 3HKOing solidly and counters, and being above average speed means she's not too terribly vulnerable to doubles. As a Dark Knight she... gets killed by people who 2HKO her but are slower, and otherwise is considerably more liable to getting doubled. More people 2HKO her by a lot, but the difference between a solid 3HKO and a 4HKO is pretty big. She oddly can 2HKO a fair deal of Lights, and needs no more than one of her turns and a counter if she goes Sage when this happens. Yeah, works. It's kinda impressive that Miriel actually scrapes average in spite of Braves existing in the curve (we all know she just wishes Celica's Gale was DL-legal, though. That'd be Waste-level offense running off her effective Mag. ALTERNATIVELY, scale my Miriel against DL-legal stats and now she's Heavy/Godlike, lulz 48 effective Magic+41 Speed+forged Celica's Gale rofl eat 1.8x PC HP a pop unless you're better than "doubles people who double average" speed).
There Is A Hole In My Heart That Can Only Be Filled With PIE Sumia - Sumia's slugfesting combo of Tana-level offense with Lutetastic durability across the board leads to a strange little package. +11.6 AS means she doubles pretty much everybody this side of WA4 bosses, so the damage gets crazy pretty fast. Against melee fighters, if she survives a hit or dodges, you're looking at upwards of 1.6x PC HP before the enemy gets a second turn, and that folds a lot of physical -tanks-, let alone lesser fighters. Against ST mages, who have to face pretty good mdur, forged Javelin counters mean they're not getting a second turn (doubled Javelin+doubled Brave Lance = 1.1x PC HP roughly) most of the time. Problem is her evade isn't that good - 37% is nice, since it means she evades turn two, but she often needs it turn one. And ITE is horrifying against her: she gets owned by Ryudo pretty horribly, for instance. Running off near-Yulie pdur in Heavy is pretty bad. Still, the weird durability split keeps her from being a terror in Heavy rather than shutting her out of the division. Not amazing, but I think she's a bit better than low Heavy in spite of the kleenex durability.
Wait Why Is This Armor Suit Walking Kellam - Godlike pdur! 2HKOs in a vaccuum! ... nearly gets doubled by people who get doubled by -average speed- and has accuracy issues. Counters keep him viable against fighters (seriously, over 3x PC HP to physicals what the -hell-), but mages fry him unless they're running off Miriel pdur. Low Middle.
DOOOOOOOOONNEEEEEEEEL Donnel - DNR. If I had to interp him, though, off to Low Light he'd go. Sub-Frederick stats will get you far, farmboy.
EEEEEEEEEEEK A GIRL Lon'qu - Hahahahaha that offense is nuts. +11 AS and 47% PC HP a swing alongside Astra? Yeah, he shreds things in a hurry if you let him get started, and Vantage has its uses if someone is unfortunate enough to land him into that range. Coinflip evade also lets him mitigate the Strawmantastic durability across the board to a degree. Heavy, definitely, and quite possibly on the high side of the division. FE13 Swordmasters are pretty much the cream of the crop in the series for cannoning.
Snow White Ricken - Eeeeeeew, 2HKOed and doubled by average as a Sage. His speed as a Dark Knight is even worse, but at least he actually takes hits a bit better... in exchange for 4HKOing. Dear god. Low Light, the last thing you want to do as a dueller is mimicking fucking Ilyana.
Bitch, I'm Fabulous Maribelle - Low Light. Speaking of mimicking Ilyana. Even worse as a Valkyrie than Lissa as a Sage, which is one hell of an accomplishment - Eruca-level pdur and 4HKO damage? You go, girl. Not that sub-Yulie durability off doubled-by-average speed and 14HKO damage as a War Cleric is any better. Renewal as a War Cleric lets her beat the truly inept, at least, and FORGED HAND AXE LETS HER BEAT JOGURT.
Whiskers Knight Panne - Game-best speed, solid to awesome evade and pdur are nice. She sucks at damage before doubles and the mdur is a little bit sketchy, but being as fast as she is lets her three-round typically and counters also help. Solid Middle.
Sweet Tooth Gaius - Gaius has to make a troublesome choice: awesome evade against better damage and Lethality. Honestly, I suspect he wants the latter: Trickster durability when things get through the evade is amazingly bad and Gaius risks having troubles against healers without Lethality, which adds up a lot better in a game where Braves are factored into the averages. Eirika-level offense is also pretty desirable in a vaccuum to boot. The evade makes quite a compelling case, though, because Gaius is hopelessly squishy on concrete no matter what. Off to Heavy either way - if he somehow could have Assassin with Lucky Seven in the DL, that'd be pretty much a ticket straight to a Heavy-champ calibur dueller, but oh well.
Writes Romantic Chrom Fanfic In Her Free Time Cordelia - She scrapes a 2HKO! She doubles average! She takes hits a lot better than Sumia! ... too bad she juuuuuuuuuust scrapes doubling average speed, which lowers her offensive potential immensely. She utterly shreds people with average speed and below, but struggles considerably more against people who are even slightly above average speed. Ends up clearly inferior as a dueller to Sumia due to that, though honestly I'm fine with this - she felt the inferior Peggie in game too. Which says more about how cool Peggies are even with the weaknesses. Low Heavy.
Gregor Is Most Fun! Gregor - Kinda slow, only decent damage and only modestly durable to physicals alongside having questionable magical durability. Axe spoiling and Sol are neat tricks at least, and it's not like he's a BAD slugger. Middle.
:japan: Nowi - That's a lot of durability and ranged counters are neat. Too bad about the crappy offense and poor speed, though. The fast can pierce through the durability given enough time and she is awful against healers. She is quite at home in a pure slugfest, though, offense woes notwithstanding, due to the sheer durability and counters. Some shade of Middle.
The Prettiest Axe-Wielding Lady Libra - Uh he takes hits better than Lissa and Maribelle and 5HKOs instead of lulzHKOs! Sub-Ricken speed dictates he languishes in Low Light regardless.
I Buy My Nightgowns In Hot Topic Tharja - Tharja is very interesting. The accuracy in a vaccuum is egregious, but it's mitigated considerably against melee fighters (and, to be quite honest, it only matters to me against people whose magical evasion -exists-, which makes it a lot less problematic) and, against mages, Tomebreaker turns her into a terror all around. Acceptable, if subpar durability both ways doesn't hurt either. And then, there are the Vengeance games that can happen, which play off Nosferatu cheese nicely. There's just a lot of ways she can steal wins from her foes - this is likely as gimmicky as a FE PC will get without bending the system into a monstrosity, and it works mostly in her favor. Fears the notably fast, but she's otherwise strangely good. Middle/Heavy, though I may be overselling her a bit.
Fantastic Unlimited Merchants Anna - 4-5HKO magical damage or 6HKO physical running off barely above average FE speed and crap durability. At least she dodges a lot and counters! Light, which is a travesty compared to her amazing in-game worth.
Makes Sylvia Look Good In-Game Olivia - Somehow, Olivia ends up a better dueller than Anna, which is just so wrong. Offense sucks and durability is junk, but she doubles average and counters, which makes her kinda decent in Light.
Sewstress Doolittle Cherche - 60 damage Brave Axe thwacks are scary, guys. Speed is pretty trashy, which leaves her vulnerable (at least she's not doubled by average), and she just sucks against magic, but spoiling swordsmen is a cool niche, she's good at tanking physicals and it's hard to argue with dat axe to the face. Low Heavy.
^_^ Henry - Dear lord the speed is horrible. On the other hand, outside that, he has Tharja's goodness off much better accuracy and considerably better durability, which keeps him viable. Hates 2HKO physicals that aren't egregiously slow with a passion (good thing he's physically durable), but otherwise is just as cheesy and interesting as Tharja. Neat Middle.
i am twelve and what is this Lucina - Hahaha, I said Lon'qu's offense was unbalanced? Let's talk about Lucina, honey. Cordelia-level base damage and speed that's just shy of doubling people who double average with a side dish of Aether+Rightful Queen -and- solid durability and evade across the board. That's pretty much OHKO-level offense whenever she doubles -before- any Aether proc chances and it just rises into gross overkill as you pile them up (if she doubles and procs Aether even once, we're looking at 131 FE13 damage. Just for fun theoretics games: Aether x4 - the maximum amount of times it can trigger in a given non-counter turn - ekes 236 damage, something along the lines of 2.55x PC HP. If someone triggers a melee counter, that's not very far from the offense she averages counting her own turn and the counter. So, um. get wrecked?). And she can even play her dad's counter-healing game because fuck you (for whatever good it'll do in the higher divisions). She isn't quite statistically dominant enough to etch her straight into the highest division, but she certainly rides the Heavy/Godlike border like a champ.
My Plot Is Fucking Stupid Say'ri - Doesn't quite double people who double average and doesn't quite reach coinflip-level evade, but she's close both ways and takes hits considerably better than Lon'qu. Amatsu makes for a neat ranged option for a one-turning against non-melee as well. A good Heavy pretty easily, much like Lon'qu.
Job-Killing Socialist Tiki - Nowi, only better in every single way that matters. Actually 3HKOs, takes hits almost as well as a Breath of Fire lategame boss and even has decent evade on odd-numbered turns. This is a deceptively powerful slugging package, though she fears healers about as much as Nowi does. Low Heavy works, sure.
Elfboy Flavia - Pretty much a better Gregor. Really wishes she actually had those extra levels that let her scrape a 2HKO to average and doubling average speed people, but she's close either way. Sol and axe spoiling are also neat. Middle/Heavy, I guess? May be overselling her a bit.
Ciatos HELL NO! Basilio - A better Vaike, pretty much. Not sure by how much to matter, but certainly rides Heavy well enough.
I KISS YOU Gangrel - High Heavy. The speed is crazy and so is the evade before he gets a turn. The physical durability is awful, but have fun hitting him until he gets going with Lucky Seven+fort bonuses - and have fun eating 4x Levin Sword smacks in retaliation. He nearly doubles people who double average as it stands, which makes his offense really dangerous. He can also usually take a single magic thwack if need be.
Cap'n Crunch Cervantes - Um I'm not sure if he's appreciably better than Kellam at all, FE boss HP is a thing. Physical durability is appreciable with ranged counters, but man, he's so slow and he gets fried badly against magic. He really needed to 2HKO to boot. Light/Middle, probably.
Mike Meyers Excellus - The physical durability is egregiously bad, which makes him give up any hope of going anywhere above Light. Sometimes, he'll live through a magic attack and fry his opposition because Forged Bolganone hurts like -fuck-, but otherwise, yeah.
Red Riding Valmar's Horn Walhart - Decent ranged 2HKO and good defenses (particularly physical) save his durability to a degree, though I think he's likely still well sub-PC HP to magic. Falls juuuuuuust short of doubling average, which is a relief, because you're -dead- if he does. Even has a case not to lose average tiebreak initiative due to his insane threat range, though he often wants to enjoy his first turn durability off throne bonuses, methinks. Some shade of Heavy.
Tim Curry Validar - Middling 2HKO and could stand to be faster, though Vengeance makes him cute against stallers and Dragonskin actually gives him durability. Pretty much a spin on the Nergal/Lyon mold without the egregious failure. High Middle, I guess? Only boss in the game to have a case for -some- sort of status immunity (at least he immunes ID), too.
Foxxy Cleopatra Aversa - Um. Goetia off +11 Attack Speed is downright insane offense, but going last off -that- pdur is asking for trouble. She reminds me of boss Lieselotte, who leaves a lot of smoldering corpses behind her wake if you let her get a turn, but gets OHKOed right and left - and Aversa has the problem of being even worse off at initiative, though her effective offense is somehow even more ridiculous (seriously, Goetia x4 is somewhere in the realm of 2.8x PC HP. That splatters a lot of Godlikes, for god's sake). At least she can take one average magical attack, I think. Low Middle, probably.
Self-Insert Megazord Grima - Um. This is kind of a Lezard situation, though I'm inclined to be more generous to plot barriers granted by a skill (that actually -has been seen before in-game!-) rather than given by tri-ace.tif. So, assuming the barrier works, uh. The raw HP's still egregious suck - roughly 40% advantage over Aversa may sound good before you realize how -awful- her raw HP is (Megazord hovers possibly around 40% PC HP for me? Hard to say. You can tell how much credit I give Aversa there, though), but Megazord more or less quarters damage across the board with the combo of Dragonskin and raw defenses, which gives it actual durability. Decent speed and middle-area, 1-2 range 2HKO also work in its favor, though it always loses initiative. I'd have to see how Dragonskin interacts with skills like Ignis and Luna in order to gauge how I'd view it against ITD (i.e. if it halves the damage boost granted by those skills or not), though I'd only consider Ignis and Luna in FE13 partly ITD. Ignis on the creature itself also grants a cute gimmick against healers and Anathema has its uses. Probably a High Heavy, all things considered. Without Dragonskin, High Middle. Durability's considerably better than Foxxy Cleopatra's, but the effective offense is sensibly worse (Megazord doesn't even double average!). 2HKOing at base with ranged counters still goes a decent way, though, especially when you're not getting OHKOed by average damage. So, you pretty much have Validar with better speed but likely less effective durability. But that's all theorycraft. IN PRACTICE: DNR.
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SO4 rankings! Initial kneejerks after seeing all the numbers, they may deserve a closer look later.
The entire cast can take a good chunk out of most elements (though usually not more than one at once) and blocks a bunch of status at minimal cost (though stone/ID are bad ones to miss), which does help them a bit.
Edge: Slightly above average at everything, but not really remarkable. He reminds me an awful lot of Lightning, but a bit better overall probably, above average at everything with some weak healing and basically infinite resources (think I allow Convert anyway, although Symbolic Weapon's a decent fallback with a spare turn). Silence is also an option, but turn 2 + slow doesn't scare too much. High Middle.
Reimi: Ew, what the hell is this. Reimi is so good in-game, so bad in the DL. 4-5HKO damage! Below average speed! Below average durability! Berserk is of more benefit to her than average if you allow it since it buffs her crappy attack relatively more, but even then it has a steep downside (stop giving Lights 2HKO damage) so ugh. Light.
Lymle: Slow and frail and somewhat fire-reliant. She has a bunch of tricks (turn 2 silence, long-lasting but kinda crappy healing, Void, Reflection stacking to spoil the elementally reliant) but I dunno how well they work in Middle. A real terror in Light though, she probably rides the Light/Middle border.
Bacchus: The cast star. 55% healing, but on Bacchus that's close to a bar of PCHP against physicals, and not that much worse against magic. Oh and it's really fast. Oh and he can use it forever. Oh and he easily stunlocks opponents, so block that or die. He reminds me a lot of Wren, only better at offence despite the worse speed (especially when stun is in play) but without status immunity. That's a big loss, but still, High Heavy.
Meracle: Somewhat fast and damaging but somewhat fragile. None of these are far from average as you might expect though, she 3HKOs and is 3HKOed by average just like most of the cast. Main thing which gets her clear of Light is stun; she's not as good at it as Bacchus, but give her two turns and you're asking for a decent chain of Ripper Pounces to lock you down for her respectable damage to finish you off. Middle.
Myuria: 80% freeze off above average speed. Hello, Heavy. It's almost a shame that freeze is so good because it makes the rest of her game less meaningful (it could do mean things in Middle), although due to her speed she's certainly the most able to parlay her Healing / Reflection / Enlighten game into victories. This is only relevant against crappy freeze-immunes in Heavy, though.
Sarah: Look, the only PC with healing that approaches full! So of course, it resolves so slowly that the slightly above average claim 3-2s, and anyone who 3-2s her (with a 3HKO) or 2HKOs her suspect durability beats her pretty much, which is an awful lot of Middle. No Fast Cast makes her defensive tricks way too slow to work, I think. At least they help her to win matches against other defensive stallers. Low Middle.
Arumat: Generally above average 3HKOer, who can trade damage for 140% speed if need be (nice for snagging finisher doubles against those slightly faster than him). Still he lets opponents get two turns far too often. Edge with more offensive tricks (not being tied to melee like Edge and Meracle helps) but without the useful support symbology. Middle.
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Thanks NEB =)
Reimi ;_; Does she get a lot better if you allow Critical Hit and Energy Shield?~
I'm thinking of allowing Critical Hit for the PCs personally since it's storebought as soon as Astral City (Mobious's One Stop Shop) which is ... around midgame I think? No issues on availability for me then ... I suppose there's still an uniqueness argument however, though Critical Hit does reflect Reimi/Meracle's in game performances very well I think~
Stun is also available around the same time (Tropp) and if you take two of the PCs that can use it as the same person for the relevant reasons that leaves it with three users if I have this right which I think would make it pretty legal but it's not as good as Critical Hit as far as I know and I don't think/know if it would benefit Edge/Meracle/Arumat much anyway. Doesn't it only work for base physicals?
Yaay Bacchus and yaay for at least one of the mages transferring well to the DL =)
Huh, interesting. Meracle transferred better than I thought she was going to at least. To be honest I thought she wasn't going to transfer very well at all to the DL at all since much of her frontlining in game for me at least revolves around her blindsiding and doing massive damage/extensive juggling/increased criticalling off her blindside, plus the very best of her juggling doesn't open up until X-Claw/L71. Much of how I view her in game doesn't really carry over but she seems to have found a different niche to work with anyway, thanks for figuring/finding that out =) She's not DL brilliant or anything, but works~
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I have some informal tests (corroborated by something I found on GameFAQs) that suggests that maxed Critical Hit is +10%. So not really great but it's a little push. Energy Shield I'd have to test (and wouldn't have much respect for someone using two passive skills at once). I don't think Reimi's going to be good regardless, what makes her good in-game is "ranged damage is great" and "can use Berserk at a far lower risk" and "hits elemental weakness on the bosses of the final two dungeons".
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Needs more Faize temp stat notes! >_<
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I was going to do this but forgot and now the Faize I have at the save point before the Phantoms is overlevelled (L66~ with his weapon from the battle arena and the Earthrock Mail equipped) He doesn't learn Reaping Spark till L66 =/
/me waves @ NEB
Did you consider Lutea's Sacred Stone for Lymle at all?~
I seem to remember some discussion on this before waay back with peeps but can't remember the specifics, whether or not there was some reason it was or was not legal~
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Atelier Iris
After a little testing thought everyone was going to up Middle, but everyone ended up able to carve out some cool niche (Klein forcing you to OHKO often, Lita's Jump Invincibility strategy, Delsus' anti-healing/potential OHKOing, Norn's crazed Magic Shield buff chains, Marietta the healing tank and Arlin taking Lita's Jump strategy and doubling the damage and then throwing in a double damage buff). Ended up loving this game in a duel, for all that it will basically never be relevant (minus that I definitely know what I'll be nomming next Futurama).
Klein- 3.95. Eternal Mana could probably have been a good nickname for Klein, describing both his skillset breadth and his resource depth. Damage (magical, "physical", elemental, ITE, ITD), Healing (full HP&MP healing at the same time, solid draining damage), status (sleep and charm), and Buffing. Unfortunately...the buffing kind of sucks in a duel. Fantastic boosting damage that doesn't effect Klein, a 50% blocking buff that needs a turn to setup on a slow, frail PC. He wanted speed.
But...to me, basically you need to disable him in a turn or else you'll have problems. If you're slower, he'll throw up the 50% blocking, status you out, or use Living Item if you can ID or OHKO him. Against faster 2HKOers who avoid the status turn 1, he can stall with Vampire Fangs, which heal 67% of his HP. May be able to deal with some Heavy sluggers because he'll 2HKO with Vamp Fangs+Finisher and stay alive to get the turns.. Can get a few statuses to me, but not important ones.
Living Item is cool as hell if you give him time though. 1/2 recharge means that he stacks Living Item Revival, and then stacks Living Item Blocking. A faster 2HKOers will then trigger Auto-Life, then trigger Blocking and then it's Klein's turn...to recast Auto-Life effectively, get another half turn to heal and still have Blocking up!
Lacks the stats to get too far in Heavy, but that skillset is fantastic
Lita- 3.35. Free turn on average against attacking enemies with a 68% chance. So...buff, fly off screen or just go for an all out attack. Obviously not great against healers. Solid Middle. Hates that she got the non-stacking buff. Back up strategy with ITE magic is cool. Doesn't like magic so much.
Her jump strategy actually gains a lot because...it's a 1/2 turn CT and RT. So she can manipulate it so that she can attack and then goes skyward again without her enemy getting a turn. Obviously limited MP holds this back from being amazing, but it deals with non-healers well (at least, if they can't time their turns like FF characters. If you give defend commands, she does still do over 2 PC HP while skybound, so can still get some through defend.
Delsus- 3.25. Weirdo. Ends up with okay damage as a fluke (Flare Shot unfocuses in game, so he doesn't have anything approaching consistent damage). His game is to try pump out First Shots and then Spirit Blast the enemy into a oblivion, which is a much better strategy in the DL than in game (where being one of three random elements can lead to massively bad things). This kills on turn 2.5x, so beats out 3HKOers.
Feint Shot is more awesome in game than the DL, so I guess there's a balance. Obvious cast worst as a dueller, but at least beating out average 3HKOers and Feint Shot probably are enough to scrape low Middle since he has can OHKO (on turn 1.5) some magically frail too.
Norn- 3.8. Tentative Low Heavy...maybe. So without Zeldalia's Cane (post game), status accuracy on Turn2Candy is a lot lower. BUT MAGIC SHIELD. So often goes first, casts that and halves damage, takes a hit, casts it twice more. You need .95 PC HP physical damage to 2HKO her, and if you don't 2HKO her, she'll cast Magic Shield a 4th and 5th times and basically starting taking 1 damage. Then she's free to use magic or physicals to kill. Weird, but very cool. I thought she'd just end up a typical status whore type, but awesome defensive buffing quirk is much better. Doesn't like people who outspeed her.
Marietta- 3.45. So Marietta looked horrible in the original topic in almost a comically bad way. -50 Speed weapon with less damage (not that speed matters beyond turn 1, but not sure that was known then or at least mentioned). Anyways, her basic physical is surprisingly solid and she has a lot of healing (and 50% chance of reviving to at least temper crit chances for enemies). Decent Middle. Magic "back up" is cool too for all that Lightning God wasn't really back up in game. Better to converse her MP for healing.
Arlin- 4. The temp. Oh, that cool jump strategy Lita has? He has that too, except his does almost double the damage. And if he takes a hit first? He can use Berserker, get a quick recharge, go skybound and then do 1.15 PC HP damage and repeat that for 4 turns. So at least Middle calibre healers get killed and it's great in a slugfest. Blocking beats out Dodge, but his Fast Attack is worse. Lot better HP though. Heavy, and a really cool one.
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MK 2- Cast loves having status weapons, since it really opens up another avenue (even if ID weapons are turn 4 or something, gives them a lot more options).
Raze- 4.25. 110% Dur and must be killed twice. Timed Cards make Mid-High Heavy work well. Damage is more on tad above average with TC, with a few quirks
Lily- 2.8. 90% Pdur/83% Mdur, Tad above average speed, tad above average damage (44% ish). Almost reaches KO point at 2.6 turns, meaning magically undurable need to 2HKO her. The definite Light
Et- 4.3. Unleahes 75% PC HP on her first turn or can do 50% PC HP+a buff that allows the next turn to do PC HP. Using Quick can mean less damage turn 1, but that second PC HP damage turn coming at 1.25 speed. Brutal physical slugging.
Yun- 3.1. 115% 3HKO off above average speed, almost 2HKOs off 90% speed (that slows enemies down about 15%, so balances somewhat to average). Last Stand and Willpower at Pinch feels like they work well against healers and gives more potenency to damage when needed. Feels like the way to sneak into Middle, but he could be a Light?
Puniyo- 3.65. Borderline kill damage about turn 1.5. 2.4 w/o Puni Breath. Healing is bad, damage doesn't exist after the rush. While the raw turn 1 slugfesting is Heavy, the rest of the package, the speed makes it questionable.
Ulrika- 3.45. ItD is not great since it's not really falling in the OHKO region. Deals with mages well, silence immune healers give her fits to some degree perhaps (minus doubling)?
Chloe- 3.05. 1.05 2HKO off about 95% speed, 1.25 2HKO off about 90% speed. Unsure if she can really play in Middle.
Pepperoni- 3.5. 1.52 Pdur, 1.1 Mdur, 4 Regen, 90% Speed,33% Earth that delays enemy turns to hell or 65% Earth with a 1.4x Recharge.
Enna- 3.2. 1.3 PC HP damage at turn 2.9 (However, 0.8 PC HP of that is Thunder, so average with Thunder halving pushes the kill point back to 3.1). Notably more durable, less wallable Lily.
Goto- 3 His horrible in game performance makes me just put starting GP at 40. So Triple Volley chain is 85% damage, so good against non-durable, non-evasive types. I'd like to think that it's not really enough for Middle, but eh. This is a case where I think I'd need to see how it went in practice, but hate.
So two solid Heavy, a Heavy/Middle, three solid Middles, 3 Light/Middles and a Light. Would make for a good Proving Grounds game Super!
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Estelle- 3.95. Spam Healing at 110 or 120% speed, gain CP, unless 2 PC HP damage. The speed boost on the healing really is awesome, because most PCs will need to OHKO her (unless they have a variety of statuses) or 2HKO her and double and that kills the doubles. Damage is good anyways (like 48%). Clear Heavy.
Joshua- 3.65 Best 2 turn damage and good HP and speed. Need to test the delay effect more on Flicker. That could potentially propel him into Heavy.
Scherazad- 3.2. Olivier with notably more HP, better ability to randomly mess with healers, and a better physical without the healing tech. This probably works.
Olivier- 3. Cheers for no stat gains from orbments included, cries at 50 CP. Good Light. Confuse is nice, but not sure how well it would end up holding up against physical fighters (could be good enough to get him to Middle). The healing is cool, but only really with the recharge (since it's basically 40% average). I could be underrating him
Kloe- 3.75. Healbot in a game with awesome healing...but unlike Estelle, yeah no real S-Craft to work towards (and the Defense buffing on the 200 CP variant isn't so hot). Impose is very awesome (and suspect that as the second game is very similar and starts her at level 35, she'll be fast enough to take advantage of it offensively a bit), but doesn't have that overkill factor. Very borderline, unsure which way she might break.
Tita- 2.6. Obvious Light, likes some slower physical fighters (or not too damaging quicker ones). Like Olivier she has Confuse, which I could be underrating. Otherwise, praying for Blind to let her nab wins. Since the Blind is attached to 30% damage though, it's pretty solid.
Agate- 3.75. Can do borderline ITE OHKO on turn 1 at the cost of 30% MHP. Otherwise than that, a passable magical/physical slugger. He could go in either division based on the Proving Grounds.
Zane- 3.4. Ugh, he hates that defensive buffs did not come as good as advertised. HP is good, Mute is good. Not sure that he gets a lot of run out of Composure honestly. It's just kind of stalling off average speed. Maybe against low damage healers, but even then random status might be better there anyways. Oh, he loooooooooves it give him the 110% speed
Amalthea- 3.2. Oh that HP...probably a bit over PC HP level. Average damage that is also anti-healer, a bit of speed, and absolutely crushes people who come against her depending on MP. For all that she's a joke, she's covering a lot of niches.
Lorence- 4.4. Uh...would vote DNR in the DL proper, but would find him okay for like CKDL. No support credit, I don't let him spam Earth Guard mk 2 each turn...but also only see it getting one hit. It's still cute, S-Craft->Earth Guard->S-Craft->Earth Guard. Against the slow, he'll get a lot of doubles anyways. This probably keeps him from Godlike though. Nasty Heavy though (who knows, when I nail down damage more there, that could change. That defense at that point...well, actually may be pretty good). May be revised later.
Richard- 3.85. 2 or so PC HP, good defenses and speed. Yeah, can't spam that S-Craft but it's not like Middles are 2HKOing (or generally 3HKOing). Throw in boss immunities, and I can't see him lower myself.
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LFT Uniques, because I feel I should take as much advantage of the new stat topic as possible.
Ramza: Barely 3HKOs average. Even with Ultima having improved as it has to ITE Faith-ignoring magic damage, he's stuck with his default build and downgrades to a 4HKO if he wants physical evade or fire/ice nulling worth a damn. Will spoil MDEF-over-HP types and the like, but he's not accomplishing much with his build. Put him at Low Middle, as much as he's improved a lot in-game.
Mustadio: ...a...ahahahaha. 9HKOs. Enough said. Have fun in Light.
Agrias: She doesn't have to give up armor for damage anymore, just her shield. Given how often those are glossed over in the DL (not sure how often that should be--40% evade or 50% Mevade are both nice to have), that might not be too much of a loss. Put her in Middle, all said and done, and watch as she still regrets the fact that she does not have magic with that MA score.
Rafa: ...what. Just...that damage. What. Rafa absolutely shatters the averages in this with a high 2HKO, on top of having her choice of high evasion or magic evade. She kind of needs it, though, given that she gets 2HKO'd by average. I suppose she's some flavor of Middle, but where depends on where you hold evade respect--high shield+mantle respect will give you her choice of 65% PEV/40% MEV or 35% PEV/75% MEV and might make her a borderliner based on that alone. Lack of respect for FFT evade gives you the 2HKO-but-2HKO'd-by-average-physicals-and-going-second which places her in the low to mid Middle? Hell of a lot better than she was.
Malak: And you thought Rafa improved. Malak's effectiveness has jumped up largely in part due to one thing: Exploding Frog. Flat 100% evade-ignoring Frog/Oil/Faith/Transparent/Reraise (and it's FFT reraise so you can't even benefit from it in a duel), all bundled into a cruel little package. If you need more, his MDur clocks in at around 2.684, so he's next to immune to magic. Essentially, OHKO him, or block Frog and 2HKO him. I feel quite safe pegging him as a middling to high Heavy.
Orlandu: He's still Orlandu. Still largely ranks as Godlike off of the speed and draining. He just hates that he lost Mighty Sword skills in this incarnation.
Meliadoul: Meliadoul is an example of a dueller who has just about everything but damage, and doesn't really care. 2.8 physical durability and 1.7 magical, and the ability to completely ruin a large variety of characters between ITE equipment breaks and extremely competent offensive stat-busting for the enemies who don't have equipment to break. She doesn't win on damage so much as making the other guy suck so bad that they don't -have- any damage left to speak of. Kneejerking borderline Heavy/Godlike--that durability is really, -really- good, and Ruins let her rip mages and unarmed types a new one, but she's held back by her speed and inability to use high-grade offense.
Beowulf: Middle. Still a PC slayer, still has damage problems.
Reis: Reis...is pretty much a textbook Light, but somewhat of an interesting one. Her damage is standard 3HKO and she's frail, but...that element-spoiling. Holy shit that element spoiling. Absorbs Holy, and blocks the Big Three innately. Even though she wishes she could have the option of wearing Clothes (for Earth Clothes or Black Costume for spoiling), she'll ruin a lot of elementally-reliant duellers on this alone.
Worker 8: Worker 8 trades damage for durability in this transition. He's still magic-immune as always, but now trades 2HKO damage for a 3HKO and ~2x PCHP physical durability. Is this a winning trade? I'm not sure, but he still feels Heavy to me, and still spoils the magic-reliant in horrible cooking-related manners
Cloud: Doesn't really change. Finishing Touch still ridiculous. Still Heavy off of that. Still generally not allowed this form.
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Since Dhyer is rambling on Trails, I'll join in. I'm basically with Pyro's stat topic, except I took would give Estelle Freeze & Mind 3 orbments, and Joshua Blind orbment. And the stats from 'em (so Estelle OHKOs a little more solidly thanks to the magic increase, and Joshua has Clock Up EX.) I'd probably also let the 2 fill their blank slots with effectlesss Space solely to set up area effect spells in their base element, which is almost totally irrelevant outside team matches (so Estelle has La Teara, Joshua has White Gehenna, etc.) It is pretty neat that most of the cast ends up roughly as effective whether 100 CP or 50 CP is used, Agate having probably the biggest leap, even if they fight totally differently (Estelle going from a deadly blitzer who can sometimes stall into a deadly staller with pressure, etc.).
Also, total side thought from reading Dhyer's topic... I get the argument for no Orbment stat boosts (Hey, anyone can equip that HP 3 orbment for durability), but I'd recommend instead something like "only get stat boosts from that character's element or "only 3 orbments of stat boosts." Kloe has 3 locked Water Orbments, of which there are only 4 to choose from and 3 storebought (HP, Mind, Freeze, and the non-storebought Heal she comes equipped with). She's basically guaranteed to be grabbing that HP & Mind in-game to help increase her magic damage & fix durability issues. Yes, others could too, but others could also grab lots of other stuff. Same with Joshua (Action, Cast, Blind, & Deathblow are the only options for 2 locked slots - he's equipping that Action & Cast at the bare minimum), Agate (he'll grab some Fire for more attack on his physical stuff, and usually wants to anyway), etc., and Tita having some locked Space slots is a genuine disadvantage in-game. Then again, as already noted I'm willing to use Pyro's assumption of "starting stuff, Joshua & Estelle get scaled up" so feel free to ignore me.
Estelle - High Heavy. OHKO'ing on turn 1 will do that, often can easily threaten a 2HKO for heal-locks, and has a solid healing / status-blocking fallback game where she just waits for a 200 CP Barrage, which is enough to murder most PC tanks. Fails hard against tanky enough enemies, most notably some DL bosses, though, where she'll just run out of EP.
Joshua - Low Heavy. Kind of like a worse WAXF Levin. Can slug passably well, and absolutely murders the slow with Clock Up EX -> alternate Flicker & Shadow Spear. Some Heavy healers are forced to heal often enough against the damage, fearing a Flicker chain, they get ID'd before they can finish him off, too. The lack of a backup healing game makes him generally just lose to tanks, though, unless they're slow enough.
Schera - High Middle. Yeah, 100% Confuse randomly screws with Middle Healers / some mages, but stats are just not quite good enough to get farther. Sylphen Guard is of doubtful utility since she's often taken a single hit already, and gets 2HKO'd reasonably often. Usual Trails vs. tanks problem w/ 100 CP.
Olivier - High Middle. Schera but with worse damage, but Earth Guard cheese meaning he almost always beats any dueler slower than him, which does come up. Happy Trigger is of theoretical use when Olivier's trying to win with status and doesn't care about tanking his damage.
Kloe - Low Heavy. I nom'd Kloe in Middle for Futurama awhile back and she champed. 100% Mute is a pretty damn good spoiler to start with (see SD3 Lise, who is meh otherwise but makes Middle largely off that), toss in healing and 100% Confuse, and she's just too hard to deal with for most Middles. Radiant Plash even helps her mess with some strategies like "wait for a double than 2HKO." Of course, Heavys can punish her damage issues better than Middle, but even then, she's fine. (Also, she mostly likes the 50 CP interp for those who take it as she gets actual pressure that way, although not so much a no-orbment-stats interp, which makes her a lot frailer.)
Agate - Middle. KOs average on turn 2 in slugfests, usual 100 CP Trails quirks (preys on the frail, fears the tankish), Earth Guard cheese. Really loves the 50 CP interp, which is the magic number where Wild Rage isn't trash.
Tita - High Light, and possibly champ material at that. Yeah her stats are utter trash, and she torpedoes her damage to use Smoke Cannister (100 CP interp), but her statuses are synergistic and unusually accurate for Light. Against Light mages, she throws out Confuse, and against Light fighters (FE trash, runeless Suiko characters), she uses Blind. Earth Guard cheese also comes up in Light. So yeah, not usually enough status immunity running around in Light to stop her reign of terror, although FE Mages eat her for lunch.
Zane - Low Heavy. 110% speed + 22 castings of Earth Guard basically gives him 2 free wimpy attacks vs. average speed duelers without a buffing game, and more vs. the slower. Still won't be enough vs. sufficiently tanky opponents, but it's something. Being faster than Kloe but having the same Mute game is pretty handy when Heavy mages can't be allowed even one turn to do something nasty. Not a huge fan of him in the DL though. Hates a no-stats from orbments or a no-non-Earth-stats interp of course, which robs him of the speed.
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I see the bosses as less tanky than Dhyer, more willing to hold S-Crafts against them, especially since PC S-crafts can easily steal things like Critical-up turns for even more damage. (But I don't usually hold Overdrives much against FFX bosses, so maybe I'm being a hypocrite. Maybe I should dock FFX some respect points, too.) Checking my notes... Amalthea is around 1.05 PCHP ignoring S-Crafts & support credit, but if you toss even a single 100 CP Barrage in there, she's down to .83 PCHP. Toss in more and it looks grim.
Amalthea - High Light. I'd kneejerk her durability as bad enough (.7-.8 PCHP?) that her EP-drain game doesn't work fast enough to save her a lot. Plenty of mages have above-average MP so the duelers who most care are also the most likely to be able to tank 2x Absorb, but you never know, it's Light. That said, against the damage-challenged in Light, she is pretty scary, mopping up Light healers easily.
Lorence - High Heavy. Okay, apparently the scale-down-enemy-damage-nulling interp was more widespread than I thought, which makes Lorence less insane. Anyway, great status whoring, and 2/3 damage reduction Earth Guard + healing + wait for doubles is a strategy vs. the even slightly slow. Just plain loses some slugfests against Low Godlike bosses, though. Possibly safest place to stow him anyway, Heavys that beat him need a specific set of tools (WA4 Jeremy's speed + status immunity, Ike not caring much about Confuse, etc.).
Richard - Low Heavy. This is so wrong since I kneejerked him as Middle, and in-game he is so bad (aw yeah spam that ST 5HKO). There *are* Middles who outslug him to me (I'd see him as ~1.5 PCHP), but they're all quite good (Tengaar maybe? Or Jude? Jude is funny, they each 4HKO each other or something but Jude goes first). Richard does just enough damage that most Middles get 3HKO'd, and he deals with Middle healers quite well with Faint hax, and he doesn't fear status, so yeah. Middles with great damage usually have some horrible other flaw like "is insanely slow" or "has tissue paper durability" that Richard can exploit.
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Lufia 3! No starting IP, Mousse in the averages.
Wain- 4.0. Beats a lot of vanilla sluggers due to the healing and tankiness. He has almost no resource against status and he's on the slow side.
Seena- 3.1. Slow, not durable in the least, and her IPs blow. Her drain game gets her into middle and mirror has some use against mages with awful physical backup. It's just hard to respect that speed/durability combo.
Dei- 3.8? This is by far the hardest rank to figure. He's a red mage type. His ID game is going to be effective in the DL thanks to that speed, and he has other status options to fall back on. His IP healing is good for stallfests as well. Wishes he had more damage though.
Aima- 3.8 *Total* status bait, but god help you if you're trying to slug her down. She has Ragnar level HP and a whole lot of fatal limit ranges. Those issues with status keep her as a pretty weak heavy though.
Randolph- 1.8. So, so bad. His limits are easy to avoid thanks to Randolph HP, and he is incredibly slow. His best damage also damages him! Winner.
Melphis- 3.6. Competent middle. She has a lot more HP and a little more speed than Seena, which feels like it makes a difference in practice. She also has resistance, which helps against turn two status that isn't walled by mirror.
Mousse-1.4. Doesn't translate. Tail Illusion buys him wins against Mint types at least! His damage is however absolutely awful otherwise.
Deckard- 3.5. Great stats (1.3x PC HP and above average speed), but hates that he doesn't have any healing. Having some elemental resistances helps some too. He'd give his left arm to have Sacred Song like Dekar though.
Yurist- 3.9. Assumption: Resistance is status immunity like it claims. I haven't tested this one thoughly to be sure though. Anyway! He can be OHKOed or statused out, but it's hard to do. He's the only PC to get good IP's and magic, which makes up for the completely unremarkable stats.
Ruby: 3.3.Mage killer. Mirror is good like that. Otherwise, fast 3HKOer with full healing off some appallingly bad durability. Spell Break lets her buff and eventually avoid getting heal locked by light level fighters, so there's that!
Isaac: 4.2. OHKO/status or die. Having full healing and some evil IPs does that. Blocking a few statuses helps too.
Milka: 3.7. 67% PC HP. *Yuck*. Mirror is good and so is resistance/Xabsorb, but that durability keeps her out of Heavy.
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Gades: 4.5. He wants Lufia 1 in the DL, though this form is competent. Curse is a good PC killer, though it's not going to cut it against the nastier godlike PC's.
Amon: 5.0. Just plain nasty. Overkill damage backed up by mirror and some very good magic damage. PC's generally get owned bad by Galactic Lancer, with his 100% confusion buying him a win against say Yuna. His lack of durability keeps him in check though, not much above PC HP for me.Amon can proudly say he's the only sinstrial to not get shithoused by Claude though! Unlike the next guy...
Daos: 4.5. Slow and not durable. The durability thing really needs to be highlighted here. Daos has 5000 less HP than he does in Lufia 2, against what I'd say is a much higher in game average. Dark Reflector is as lol worthy as ever. Scary memory is a nice trick, but I have zero respect for that against bosses. PC's who don't OHKO him generally are going to get eaten by his damage anyway, so scar memory ends up not mattering. He reminds me of Rashidi who trades some speed for a little durability and scary memory. Doubt it's a winning trade.
Erim: 4.3? I don't think Xabsorb OHKOs average (By a hair) to me and she's slow. She's a boss version of Seena. I'm not sure she can even take the likes of FE Guy with that wonderful Pdef/speed mix.
Guard Daos 4.9. Fears ITD to some extent, but that's it. Pdef is really high, even his Mdef matters after a use of Dark Aura. Doubt he ever really uses Dark Aura though, he's kinda slow and his offense is good enough as is.Also a DNR, is a literal plot fusion.
Zalbak: DNR. Probably a bluelike, he triple acts and has silly damage.
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Since Dhyer is rambling on Trails, I'll join in. I'm basically with Pyro's stat topic, except I took would give Estelle Freeze & Mind 3 orbments, and Joshua Blind orbment. And the stats from 'em (so Estelle OHKOs a little more solidly thanks to the magic increase, and Joshua has Clock Up EX.) I'd probably also let the 2 fill their blank slots with effectlesss Space solely to set up area effect spells in their base element, which is almost totally irrelevant outside team matches (so Estelle has La Teara, Joshua has White Gehenna, etc.) It is pretty neat that most of the cast ends up roughly as effective whether 100 CP or 50 CP is used, Agate having probably the biggest leap, even if they fight totally differently (Estelle going from a deadly blitzer who can sometimes stall into a deadly staller with pressure, etc.).
Also, total side thought from reading Dhyer's topic... I get the argument for no Orbment stat boosts (Hey, anyone can equip that HP 3 orbment for durability), but I'd recommend instead something like "only get stat boosts from that character's element or "only 3 orbments of stat boosts." Kloe has 3 locked Water Orbments, of which there are only 4 to choose from and 3 storebought (HP, Mind, Freeze, and the non-storebought Heal she comes equipped with). She's basically guaranteed to be grabbing that HP & Mind in-game to help increase her magic damage & fix durability issues. Yes, others could too, but others could also grab lots of other stuff. Same with Joshua (Action, Cast, Blind, & Deathblow are the only options for 2 locked slots - he's equipping that Action & Cast at the bare minimum), Agate (he'll grab some Fire for more attack on his physical stuff, and usually wants to anyway), etc., and Tita having some locked Space slots is a genuine disadvantage in-game. Then again, as already noted I'm willing to use Pyro's assumption of "starting stuff, Joshua & Estelle get scaled up" so feel free to ignore me.
Hmm, I should post a topic on where most of the DL sees things like starting CP/SP/IP now. Would be interesting to see where things fall now. 100 CP feels a little bit much for Trails 1, and also kind of throws things off balance compared to game. It definitely feels like as accessible as G3 SP, and the money DL move use all of SP (and S-Crafts definitely felt like something you needed to really build up to in game). Really throws off the balance compared to in game.
Any PC that wants to can easily grab HP 3, the relevant Attack/Mind 3 and Speed 3. Kloe was the one who naturally got the healing set, which is reward enough (Even with Tita...2 locked Space isn't that bad. You want Eagle Vision on someone, and EP Cut 3 is good for setting up MT stuff. So not good, but not that serious a limitation). The skillsets are already enough of advantage (Alternately, anyone could have started with that Action 2, but it's not really so relevant when Zane joins. Not sure he should get a heap of DL credit for something like that).
Amalthea- Yeah, probably overrated her HP a bit. 0.8 may be more accurate than 1. May cost her Middle; she's the type where a little extra HP goes a really long way.
Lorence versus Jeremy- Jeremy does not like that Pdur though because Lorence's defense is nasty. Earlier Jeremy's may okay, but late ones struggle. Ike needs to get that ITD hit ASAP.
Richard- Between his defense and evade, Jude's damage should take a pretty nasty fall. He's notably above average in both, which Jude does not like.
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I have a hard time wrapping my head around Richard as a heavy. He was so bad. I guess he's kinda durable (although only 1.66x Amalthea's HP, so if she's 0.8, he's 1.3...) but the non-S-craft damage is absolutely anemic, so he only 4HKOS average, and Heavies tend to be on the durable side of average (or evasive). I personally see him as a mediocre Middle... pretty good against the fragile where he may 3HKO first or even better, but descends to be pretty awful pretty fast if you can take hits, since he isn't getting a second S-craft until turn 5.
Lorence can fuck off. Seriously. Worthless plot fight. At least Dhyer's observations confirmed mine that he isn't as fast as the numbers suggest.
I'm not really sure how I feel about initial CP, I can see cases either way. I will agree with Dhyer about de-emphasising orbment stats, same way I feel about WA5. They're not unique at all, and in-game you can pretty easily grab all the important ones. Giving e.g. Joshua credit for Action 2 is no different than giving Rico credit for his starting speed ring, and I for one have certainly moved past such views.
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Richard should be higher than Amalthea relatively because support credit (his doesn't suck). I'm assuming with the 4HKO that you don't let Richard use the S-Craft on turn 1? Otherwise he 3HKOs. Also, S-Crafts are ITE (At least...I guess I should say the PCs one are, but I don't imagine that the bosses are different on that account). His defense is decent too.
So, a bad 3HKO, decent Pdur, status immunity, way to mess with healers, and at least above average speed. He sucks as a Heavy, but feels like a lot of Middles to deal with. There certainly are ones that do so I could be overrating him. Another TitS dueller who would be good to test in a M/H Proving Grounds along with so many others.
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Richard's support was awful, what are you talking about (10HKO damage!). I ignored it and pasted him; that gets no support credit from me. Anyway, Richard's absolute best damage aside from the S-Craft is 0.2 (and that's a limit?!), otherwise 0.17. The S-craft is 0.55. That's a 4HKO to average, and not terribly hard to push to 5 (although very hard to push past 5, since turn 5 is when he gets S-craft #2 off for me). S-crafts ignore evade, sure, but his other stuff doesn't.
I had no idea his def was any good though (I ran Kloe and Olivier)! Hmm... your notes say it's a 75% cut against basic physicals, and a 20% cut against S-crafts? Six PCs have magic as better than their non-S-craft physical damage, so I'd take 20% for them, and probably... I dunno, let's call it 60% against Agate/Zane then (that's probably generous, I think S-crafts happen more often than that). Averages out to a 30% cut of the cast's physical offence. I'm pretty big on taking def against the stuff that matters. Still gives him a nice push, to be sure, so yeah, he can outslug some pure fighters who make up low Middle. Obviously he's a bit better if you see the physical cut as closer to 50% but that feels like really overrating it to me, compared to how little it matters in-game.
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I would at least throw Joshua his charge-time benefits from Cast, charge times aren't usually something that the DL averages out.
I'm mostly with Elf about respecting defense only vs. the stuff that matters, and thus not inclined to hype Trails boss defense too much. It's really useful against Agate / Zane, but not S-Crafts or magic.... and if you really want to go beatdown, well, you're probably doing things like eating Strength-buff food and using Kloe's Impose to still get good damage in, so there are totally ways around it in-game.
For Richard vs. Amalthea HP, it isn't just support credit. If you assume you walk into the fight with some CP, it's basically a subtractive cut of starting HP, so it hurts HP-light Amalthea more than Richard. (Assuming 0/33/66/100 probably still means the boss will eat 2 S-Crafts minimum, assuming 0/66/133/200 is ugly and is 2 S-Crafts & a boosted S-Craft). Also, Gladiator Headband is a totally great accessory gotten early - that's the "feed equipped character CP constantly" accessory that can ensure a steady stream of Barrages or Black Fangs, which helped me not feel particularly CP-poor in-game. Obviously DL-illegal for the PCs but a minor strike against the bosses. As for Richard in Heavy, well, it's all about Afterglow Smasher AI in the DL. Agree that if he's more restricted on that to "wait 4 turns" akin to in-game, he immediately sinks back into Middle, I was just kneejerking to "every other turn" which gives Richard something like 1.2 PCHP of damage on his third turn. (Every other turn is how much I restrict, say, Jade's BoltX to, or Chaos's NUKE.) I could very easily be swayed on this since Richard in Heavy is so wrong. (also, his support isn't TOTALLY worthless, the fact it's an MT 10HKO mildly helps! And it's clearly better than Amalthea's... somehow....)
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Bolt X (a) can certainly be used on consecutive turns [I've seen it several times] and (b) doesn't have strong flavour restriction against it being spammed the way S-Crafts or VP1 great magic does. Chaos' Nuke can indeed not be spammed, but (b) still applies. Basically Trails is very clear that S-Crafts can only be used once in a while on the PC end, and from your tests bosses appear to be the same, so I'd carry the mechanic over. Richard should just be thankful I do let him use the move on turn 1 (which nicely keeps him out of Light, at least).
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Tales of Xillia: Why not.
Jude: Middle. He has tons of healing, good durability, status healing, and elemental resistance. The damage is bad but at least he isn't afraid of counters.
Milla: Middle. Has a low 2HKO with lightning damage and decentish durability. Mocks elemental damage herself. The TP issues are huge though and her backup damage to thunder rather sucks. Feels weaker than Jude in Middle certainly...
Alvin: Middle. Like Jude he has lots of healing and good durability (very nice physical durability). The damage is decent and elemental resists abound which covers his somewhat suspect magic durability. Very good at physical slugfests.
Elize: Heavy. Solid damage, healing, status immunity if she needs it (though she has to sacrifice damage for it), and a weird gimmick game with defending to effect full-healing. I'm honestly not all that sure about her, but she looks pretty good.
Rowen: Middle. Magic immunity should let him have that much. The Diffusion Drive damage/heal is worth something too.
Leia: Middle. That durability and healing is ridiculous. But she has no pressure at all, and her matches will tend to be longer on account of her not wanting to blow TP on even that little amount of damage.
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Thanks for all the Xillia stuff Pyro :) Been enjoying reading your and Fudo's thoughts/etc on the game (be cool if Fudo posted his full speed tests/results if he still has them as well) ~
So, Last Stand is effectively 75% damage reduction then? Been watching a Leia solo on Youtube where I first read from the guy doing it that it was more than 25%
Don't know if you know, but Elemental Impulse also lies. It actually 100%/always adds the element the target is weak to given the target has a weakness. It's only random i.e only imbues a random elemental strength on Leia/another character given the enemy/enemies doesn't/don't have any specific elemental weakness. Not sure how much/if any it helps Leia/allies for DL/dungeon but figured it was worth mentioning anyway :)
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My speed tests were VERY ROUGH head counts after like ten or so attempts. There's no convenient way to get speeds, and Free Run slightly slows dudes. I do plan on just ripping the wall clock to test later though. The usual though is Jude is freakishly fast and gets faster. Rowen makes snails belong in racing movies. Slow is ridiculously strong. It makes Wingul, who can tail Jude fairly well, lose in a foot race to Rowen. I'm also grabbing the boss data. Though with the ! counter and all things get mighty inconsistent. I do learn fun things. Like Agria's fittingly complete lack of a coherent pattern! She's literally led the battle off with tossing Lemon Gels at herself. She goes into Overlimit whenever she feels like. It's hilarious.
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Most of the bosses go into Overlimit seemingly whenever they feel like it. Certainly doesn't seem to be tied to HP like in other Tales games. This is especially apparent in the arena where without warning just BAM. There may be a timer where they can enter it every so often, and it's made a bit messier by the fact that Linked enemies share OL much like linked PCs do.
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My initial guess was that it was based off of damage they did... until I saw a video(admittedly on Hard) of Agria going into Overlimit at the start of a fight. Though at the very least Linked bosses go into Overlimit whenever they pull off a Linked Arte. I got sick of seeing the Aqua thing so damn fast because it just wasted my time until I could actually combo.
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Wild Arms 2 retake:
Ashley: High Middle. ~1.4 PCHP overkill! But this can be gotten around by being faster and 2HKOing. It can also be gotten around with hitting for 20%->40%->40%. But that opens up Ashley to winning with his 40% DeadOrAlive ID attack and Accelerator to make it happen before the foe's third turn. That ID strat crumbles in the face of even modest evasion however.
Brad: Low Middle. He has like 1.4 PCHP durability! But he is very slow and only 3HKOs. He can win if he gets to Railgun or if the foe is a bit below average durability and falls to two Lock-On Mini Scuds. Has no recourse against a little status.
Lilka: High Heavy. A bit frail (~.9 PCHP) but speedy, has solid damage that can pick up 2HKOs on the magically undurable, infinite healing, Reflect, ID/Sleep immunity when Reflect doesn't work, speed buffing, and a limit that she can adjust to be ~115% PCHP of any element she wants. Very powerful skillset and stats that don't waste them. She just has a lot of different ways to win.
Tim: Light. Tim has speed and durability woes that confine him to Light. He'd be a pretty miserable one without First Aid. First Aid's initiative healing is decent enough (heals 40% of average HP, or 54% to Tim). If he spams that he may eventually get a doubleturn that lets him do something nasty like get in a shot of above-average damage or use a 100 FP summon for significant damage. But that involves holding down with First Aid for a long time as he has to get a double when switching from First Aid's good speed to his own bad speed. Still 40% average HP is good healing in Light and hard to overcome.
Kanon: PC form is a low middle. The damage is 4HKO when she isn't taking significant hits, but she's crazy fast. But the lack of damage just opens her up to getting statused. Deals with healers well enough via getting up to strong Gat commands and spamming them till she gets a finisher. The Boss form (which is what I assume is more commonly hyped given her former Heavy ranking) is either a Heavy or a Godlike. The durability is quite bad, which you would notice more in-game if she weren't so damaging as to threaten an OHKO on Tim and possibly Lilka. Hyperfast highish 2HKO is hard to argue with even if a good solid hit puts her down.
Marivel: Light. A bit slow and frail and her statuses are turn 2 (3 for the ID, which is the one she really wanted to be good). WA2 Silence is awesome but by the time it lands she's probably vulnerable to a good physical beatdown. Sleep is kind of worthless on those faster than her... her status is actually good in-game vs. several of the game's most powerful bosses (She can zzz Ragu...) but in a duel she's sorely lacking. Pity.
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SH 3 PCs
Johnny: 4.65. One nice shot of 1.5 PC HP damage...then nothing that remotely works in Godlike. Feels worse than Shania overall I would think.
Shania: 4.75. Can unleash 1.1 PC HP on turn one, or if needed, bulk up and drain away. Either game works well for low Godlike. Probably wouldn't hold Ether Purge against her (after game stuff)
Frank: 3.05. He can almost scrape the 2HKO off bad speed with 2 Fast Snowballs. That feels a bit much for Light with that HP.
Hilda: 4.15 Can't say she changed much since she was never really about damage. ID with a haste-heal back up if needed. Pink Bat...can do a bit over an OHKO if it can take a hit (I'm sure there are theoretical matches where this is useful since enemies only generally act once)
Mao- 2.8. Solid high Light. No stat weaknesses, 4HKO with magic or physical.
Natan- 2.8. Mao with slightly more HP, but minus limit killing potential (which doesn't matter so much in Light, but hey)
Ricardo- 3. See the above two, add in 10% Regen. He's solid enough to make that very nasty for Light.
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Breath of Fire 2
Ryu: 4.55. Obviously smashes if he gets a turn with 2.5 ITD damage. But...lots of time in Godlike he won't. Hell, lots of times in Heavy. So gut is the Godlike side, but fast status gets him badly.
Bow: 3.1. Well, Shot is down to turn 3ish. But hey, that+healing can get him at least to Middle, I think.
Deis: 4.35. This variant alone. Speed, damage, ID! But that whole Shed thing doesn't work as well in the DL against a lot of fighters, and for those who block ID and have Mdef (or Thunder res), she's slowed down. A nasty Heavy, but spoilable.
Jean: 3.3. ID isn't as accurate as we thought, still a Middle doing mostly the expected ID thing.
Katt: 2.8. Ooof. Man, she wants that final weapon. Speed is great, but damage is average and durability is bad.
Nina: 3.45. Well, without Death having that blistering accuracy, that's a hit. Knowing her actual Pdur is also a hit. Certainyl speed makes her...better than Jean, but that 63% Pdur means that she will be facing some OHKOs in Middle.
Rand: 3.45. Hates status, but is nasty to outslug (even with that speed, not many Middles are 2HKOing). But...status, it's still there.
Spar: 2.7. Still not very good, but an improvement. Now with borderline 3HKO damage and a bad MDef spoiler with Idle. Not really much worse than Katt.
Sten: 3. Really close to borderline. Got a bit more speed and relatively more damage than before. 3HKO off that speed is pretty nice. The Idle weapon is nice against low Mdef enemies.
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And updated numer log
Games Included
AI, BoF 2, Brig, EP, FE 7, FE 10, FF 13, Grandia 3, Lost Odyssey, MK 2, Shadow Hearts 3, TitS
Number Log
Tibarn- 5
Naesala- 4.9
Nailah- 4.75
Shania 4.75
Johnny 4.65
Caineghis- 4.55
Ryu 4.55
Deis- 4.35
Ike- 4.35
Et- 4.3
Raze- 4.25
Elincia- 4.2
Ulf- 4.2
Fang- 4.15
Hilda- 4.15
Lyn- 4.15
Athos- 4.1
Delsus- 4
Estelle- 3.95
Klein- 3.95
Yuki- 3.9
Hector- 3.85
Snow- 3.85
Thage- 3.85
Vanille- 3.85
Norn- 3.8
Florina, Guy, Legault, Stefan- 3.8
Agate- 3.75
Kloe- 3.75
Olifen- 3.75
Rebecca- 3.75
Matthew- 3.7
Alfina- 3.65
Ares (EP)- 3.65
Joshua- 3.65
Puniyo- 3.65
Sazh- 3.65
Tolten- 3.65
Kaim- 3.6
Skrimir, Ulki- 3.6
Pepperoni- 3.5
Seth (LO)- 3.5
Raki (EP)- 3.5
Mia, Rolf, Sain, Serra- 3.5
Hope- 3.45
Lightning- 3.45
Marietta- 3.45
Nina (BoF 2)- 3.45
Rand (BoF 2)- 3.45
Ulrika- 3.45
Iria- 3.45
Canas, Tauroneo- 3.45
Alexei (EP)- 3.4
Retica (EP)- 3.4
Zane- 3.4
Fiora, Nephenee, Nealuchi- 3.4
Lita- 3.35
Boyd, Edward, Haar, Micaiah, Soren, Volug, Zihark- 3.35
Jansen- 3.3
Sed- 3.3
Dryst, Zemeckis, Brangien, Shiraha- 3.3
Brom, Calill, Dart, Gareth, Mordecai, Raven, Titania- 3.3
Delsus- 3.25
Marie (EP)- 3.25
Danved, Jill, Kent, Volke- 3.25
Ashley (EP)- 3.2
Enna- 3.2
Mack- 3.2
Scherazad- 3.2
Vaynard, Dinadin, Bahamut, Escalados, Isfas, Batercus, Merriott, Seraph- 3.2
Jaffar, Janaff, Kieran, Kurthnaga, Oswin, Ranulf- 3.2
Glynne (EP)- 3.15
Logue (EP)- 3.15
Reyna (EP)- 3.15
Cador, Lance- 3.15
Malakov, Pent, Rath, Renning- 3.15
Bow- 3.1
Nolan- 3.1
Yun- 3.1
Chloe- 3.05
Frank- 3.05
Esmeree, Paternus- 3.05
Erk, Heath, Kyza, Lethe, Louise, Lowen, Oscar- 3.05
Goto- 3
Olivier- 3
Ricardo- 3.0
Sten- 3.0
Tiamat (Brig), Pegasus- 3
Hawkeye, Lyre, Tanith, Vaida- 3
Fafnir (Brig), Phoenix, Salamander- 2.95
Bastian- 2.95
Dahna- 2.9
Vivian (EP)- 2.9
Cai, Lyonesse, Holygriff- 2.9
Bartre, Fiona, Ilyana, Marcia, Priscilla, Wil- 2.9
Komori (EP)- 2.85
Lecarra- 2.85
Isadora- 2.85
Katt- 2.8
Lily- 2.8
Mao- 2.8
Ming- 2.8
Natan- 2.8
Sarah- 2.8
Maneater, Vampire Lord (Brig)- 2.8
Lucia, Sothe, Heather, Vika- 2.8
Stein (EP)- 2.75
Bilcock, Fenrir, High Centaur, Titan- 2.75
Geoffrey, Lucius, Mist, Muarim- 2.75
Spar- 2.7
Sigrun- 2.75
Nasir- 2.65
Gish, Loufal, Meltorfas, Lizard Guard, Poseidon, Satan- 2.65
Irina (EP)- 2.6
Levatte (EP)- 2.6
Tita- 2.6
Velnor (EP)- 2.6
Millia, Millet, Dao- 2.6
Dorcas- 2.6
Eliwood- 2.55
Cooke- 2.5
Filo, Bronze Golem- 2.5
Meg, Oliver, Renault, Sanaki- 2.5
Leonardo- 2.4
Yuri (EP)- 2.4
Morholt- 2.4
Zerafin- 2.3
Astrid- 2.3
Nena (EP)- 2.25
Death Needle (Brig)- 2.25
Aran- 2.2
Rhys- 2.15
Ena, Laura (Revised), Tormod- 2 (Revised)
Fairy (Brig)- 1
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Grandia 2
Ryudo- 3.15. Sliiiightly better than Roan since he's a little better against FEers (some MT at least!). Low Middle works. Fast, some status blocking (like the whole cast), Silence Sword could spoil...Mint!
Elena- 3.8. Heavy by the skin of her teeth. Feels like a bit much for Middle. Fast, (barely) turn 1 Silence/Tech Lock, Some Sleep Locking that really good against those with Bad Mdef, Lots of Healing+Speedy, Status Immune
Mareg- 2.85. Probably a nasty Light, but speed+bad against healers (at least Roan may be able to manipulate his doubles a bit better)
Millenia- 4.4. Don't think the punch for Godlike is there. Spellbinding Eye is just a bit too slow turn 1, and boss and Mdef tend to spoil her pretty well. Silence is a little better than expected, but doesn't match her game all that well.
Roan- 3.1. Averagish, but fast. Middle, but not much of one.
Tio- 3.25. Speed is solid. Damage is a little lacking, but she has decent options with physical and magic damage, spoiling some evadable damage
G2 Girls>G2 Boys
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The Last Story:
Zael: Heavy. 100% Paralysis (ignores guarding, multiple attempts...), some good speed, damage that gets better the longer he fights, and a giant "FU" to mages. What Wizard Slayer hits is up for debate, but two things worth noting about it are that it doesn't hit a particular mage boss (but it works on another, the Necromancer I think), and it does work on mage enemies that also wield and fight with swords (certain witches).
Syrenne: Fast and hits like a truck. Low Heavy...
Yurick: Light. Fire mage with cruddy stats, basically. He's not slow like the other damage mages but he isn't exactly fast either.
Mirania: Low Middle. Infinite regen/healing that doubles as status immunity/healing. It's decent.
Callista: Low Middle. She's a lot like Mirania but a little slower to put out that first healing circle. I think that makes her a tad worse in practice. Her Spirit super-move is better though, assuming you let her use it on herself (which makes sense).
Lowell: Light. He has the slow damage magic and has to start off fights with that. He also has the cruddy physical that he can switch to if he really needs to. But his damage just isn't up to snuff and it's not like he has other saving graces.
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Raze- Heavy. He's a hell of a tank, but I punt weapon ID hype on the whole and he struggles against Malak level fighters after that.
Lily: High Light. Too spoilable (Loses forever to ice defense, which is common) and has bad durability and hates healers. She's still got decent damage for the division and MK2 equips which helps a ton.
Et: High Middle. She might be a borderliner, but she runs out of gas too quickly and is walled by high defense/healers. Status she can't block is an issue as well. I might be missing something but she doesn't look that great on paper.
Yun: Low Middle. He's solidly in the division but isn't great due to fire reliance. Better than such a suckass PC deserves. Last Stand and Willpower at Pinch both give him a pseudo limit threat.
Puniyo: ??? Donno how to feel about Puni Sunction and that matters too much. She looks pretty bad besides for that.
Ulrika: Low Heavy. Status and Intent to destroy dovetail together very well. Curse in particular is extremely hard to block and it lets Ulrika bust silence immune healers.
Chloe: Middle. Way way *way* too much offense for light. She has a few other tricks as well to make sure she stays in the division.
Pepperoni: High Middle. Yeesh, slow out the gate on that first turn, but still. Durable and damaging. He has no prayer of sniffing heavy without ID that isn't utter shit. Also totally fucked against earth defense.
Enna: Middle. Think his damage is good enough for that. Kind of boring on the whole.
Goto: Light. Pretty textbook. I give him zero starting GP. Triple Volley looks marginally helpful for pressuring healers at least.
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Et: High Middle. She might be a borderliner, but she runs out of gas too quickly and is walled by high defense/healers. Status she can't block is an issue as well. I might be missing something but she doesn't look that great on paper.
The way she bursts her damage smashes healers' asses. Twinkle Moon x2 => Support Chakram => 3-2 (because SC has Et running off over 2x average speed due to insanely fast recharge) => Twinkle Moon until it doesn't work => most PCs are dead (the Chakram activates at EVERY Twinkle Moon, it adds up fast). Her issue is mainly almost always letting people get one turn, but they rarely get a second. Timed cards also help a lot against healers if she -wants-. She runs out of gas quickly, but that's more of a problem against bonafide physical walls than anything else.
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Both high defense and evasion spoil that strategy. She looks good on paper but I am not too impressed in practice. She hit a theorical CKDL downgrade pool last season.
Et, Fujin, Takaya, Kyra, Stocke, Tengaar
I can't vote on Takaya (Hi pool jobber) or Stocke but she can't really deal with Kyra or Tengaar. Fujin's a durability respect check. She doesn't look especially strong there to me. She beats up on straight sluggers but it's hard for me to say she'd be much in the division if she goes there.
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Both Kyra and Tengaar are pretty high-grade physical spoilers, though (Kyra and Tengaar borderline auto-win against high-grade FE Heavies, for instance). Fujin isn't -much- of a respect check, since Blind doesn't affect timed cards (Twinkle Moon x3 => Et Circle Rondo, Fujin's locked into either getting finished off by cards or by two Twinkle Moon strings). Stocke's decently durable, but he badly fails at damaging Et due to relying entirely on Fire damage - I feel his shoddy healing at most delays the inevitable. Meanwhile, Takaya just sucks and gets outslugged. She's not the High Heavy we once thought she were (different speed averages, in which she looked -a lot- better), but she's fine in the division.
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I was going to say that I would say that allowing/not allowing ID weapons certainly matters for her a ton since that's a potential match flipper on Kyra, but Et needs 7 turns for the ID hit (on the plus side, her speed is a bit better than normal because now Godly Chain Robe is the armor to use with the ID weapon. So the ID hits on average speed turn 5ish on average.
That also said Super, I would say MK 2 equips kind are pretty middling without the ID weapons (unless you allow full Aroma Material). They can block some status, but almost every armor is semi-worthless because it means giving up way too much speed. They can spoil a few pure elemental sluggers, but those sluggers better not have a passable back up or else that speed (and durability!) loss will probably be too much.
Et can do like .75 PC HP turn 1, which...I would struggle to imagine even high Fujin respect having thanks to Fujin's atrocious defense.
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Being able to get a status and ID at the same time is a pretty useful option, as is blocking an element. There are enough Suiko mages and others who rely entirely on one element that such spoiling is a big deal in the DL.
Evasion and (Possibly counters) are a big problem for Et and the entire MK cast. As far as I can see, every single attack can be blocked in the game. This is a big deal when you are relying on a lot of small hits to deal your damage.
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Counters aren't that huge a deal for the timed cards users, since those can't be countered. Evasion is, but this has always been true for pretty much every evadable physical fighter ever.
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Okay, now that we have a stat topic with numbers, time for assessments on Bravely Default's jobs! Those take my usual interps in mind (harsh on items, 25% SDs, what have you).
Freelancer: Wow, 34HKO damage, guys. It takes -Mint- to lose on offense to these guys. And, in fact, their game is rather Mint-like indeed: Endure x2, spam Treat, reapply Endure as needed and alternate 3% damage thwacks and Defaults in order to slooooooooooooooooowly whittle down their opposition. Possibly worse at spoiling low-resource, decentish-damage types due to the healing being nowhere near full, but at least they get -some- status spoiling and Stand Ground is kinda useful when your fights go on for so damned long. Low Light.
Monk: They really like getting the HP Plus skills, holy crap that defense modifier. That said, we have an overkill damage cannon - which can be either ITD or pure physical for exploiting low defenses - running off below average speed. The higher durability/speed setup sacrifices a lot of damage, but being above average speed can be the difference between winning and losing against the frail. High Heavy at worst - she doesn't like counters or good evade, but them's the breaks.
White Mage: Welp, the costs on Curaja and Holy just aren't very helpful for the stalling White Mage attemps to pull off. Reflect and Dispel have situational uses, though Reflect ain't great synergy with her durability spread. The main problem is she spends 640 MP to cast the eight Holies she needs to kill average, so she has really no room to play a defensive game if she wants to win before the next ice age (at which point she may well run out of MP anyway). She'll never kill anyone she needs to heal against without heavily sparing resources, and good luck finding someone WM doesn't need to heal against with that durability and offense. Light you go.
Black Mage: 0.75 pdur running off below average speed is a fine way to get yourself killed before getting a turn. On the other hand, you're REALLY in for it if Black Mage gets that turn: nearly 1.5x PC HP ITD overkill in dark damage or 1.1x PC HP in other three elemental flavors alongside horrendously accurate ID, Silence and Sleep in case the burst overkill ain't enough. Black Mage is brutally good at ending fights fast and it -really- shows. Drain isn't terribly relevant, but it ain't too bad either. The sheer offense even has room for further improvement (a second Poison Rod and a Mage Hat provide substantial Magic boosts), but that'd likely get Black Mage OHKOed by -Lights- and also sacrifices further speed, so I don't really see much of a point. Pretty much Rydia's logical extreme and likely a Heavy/Godlike. I'd consider Godlike straight if he had above average speed.
Knight: More one-rounding goodness! Better get used to this in this cast. Only this time we get our first bonafide physical tank - I'm not sure quite how much I respect Knight's effective physical immunity, but it's safe to say he at least puts Mog to shame with his def-maximizing setup. His killer turn isn't as impressive as what we've seen so far (1.17x PC HP? That's pretty feasible to survive) and it runs off a physical attack (so, vulnerable to good, comprehensive evade), but anyone below that either OHKOs him, statuses him or dies, which is awfully hard to do even with magic. However, he's a sitting duck outside Shield Charge: he can't possibly pressure people who survive a single Shield Charge string (while Monk has the possibility of engaging heal-locks, hoping for a P. Atk boost and also entirely bypassing defense, while Black Mage has an array of status at his disposal). Also, being considerably slower than his fellow OHKOers so far, it's actually feasible to, say, outpace him in a race between him Default-spamming for 4x Shield Charge (the physical game with a sword is just pointless). ON THE OTHER HAND, he's a heck of a physical spoiler. Interesting case, in any event. High Heavy likely works.
Thief: Hoo boy, entirely dependant on TB speed interps this girl is. The durability varies from subpar (pdur) to trashy (mdur, that mdef score is -impressive-), but holy crap 4+ standard deviations above average is lower-end WA4 boss speed under my views and TB caps. So, Default, survive a hit, Default, slam a 3-2 against most people and drop 1.35x ITD PC HP on the enemy's head. It's almost like she's playing an Assault Buster game, only trading the crazy high reliance on enemy stats for egregious durability and little way to apply continuous pressure. The parasitic healing game actually has theoretical uses, but I'm not sure how often they'd get to see play given how decisive Godspeed Strike is. Her ability to pressure the enemy at base isn't any better than Knight's and she's even more of a sitting duck after running out of BP. I'm kneejerking, given my leniency with TB speed, she hovers in the Middle/Heavy border (and I'm still on the fence about allowing Default's damage halving) from my end. Gets A LOT worse if you're harsher on TB interps.
Merchant: Welp, ITD 1.6x PC HP overkill, everything else sucks. At least it rams into physical immunity and good evade! My limits on Merchant money spending certainly don't even nearly ram into the damage she can pull off, though she runs into similar durability woes as the other blitzers. High Heavy.
Spell Fencer: Annnnnd we're back to the damageless losers. Spending a turn to buff your damage to 21% average is a waste of time and the best Drain Sword does is outpacing Raja offense. Black Mage's status game makes a return here, though: Brave x4 => Death Sword => Attack x3 and off we go. Unfortunately, this strategy is kinda vulnerable to really high evade and being below average speed does no favors to an ID whore. To boot, none of the other status options are terribly attractive either without a better overall package (the damage's so bad that he's basically -guaranteed- to have a bad run or three with Sleep and Silence only really works against mages with a REALLY bad physical - as in they'd still risk winning running like 7HKO-level backups. Poison might help with that, but uh guys he's not in -Light-). Still, kinda hard to argue with crazy accurate ID off decent durability and statusblockers. Heavy.
Time Mage: From one extreme of the damage spectrum to the other. Time Mage's essentially a non-ITD variant of Black Mage running off similar durability and speed, but sporting a killer turn of fucking 2.4x PC HP. Given how much of a OHKO machine (both ways!) TM is, her speed manipulation and limited evade spoiling games are kinda pointless. Stop serves a similar purpose to Sleep and Graviga, if you ignore the damage cap issues, could also have theoretical uses (75% mHP damage is pretty cool in a vaccuum!). Heavy/Godlike once again.
Ranger: Holy crap Black Mage-level pdur on a fighter and even worse mdur than Thief. At least she's above average speed! Anyhow, past the miserable survivability, she actually misses a two-rounding by -a hair- (physical => Brave x4 physical), and she starts heal-locking average once she has at least 1 BP in store (since she now can afford a Multiburst in the Brave string). Past that, she does two-round anyone below average durability off insane accuracy and one-rounds the frail, so you could do worse - she could also trade some damage for -even worse durability- if she REALLY needs to one-round something. Middle, maybe?
Summoner: 0.66x pdur off Knight-level speed and magic durability only slightly better than Thief, are you fucking KIDDING me? Summoner actually manages to two-round average (and could progressively grow into a one-rounding, but off those MP costs, don't count on it), but holy crap, -Lights- can 2HKO him right and left. Rule of Tim applies pretty fiercely here - on the other hand, Light's also fraught with slow, non-durable types. It's a weird balance. Light/Middle, as Pyro postulated? Could just be a High Light, though.
Valkyrie: It's Kain without elemental resists, a Chaos Shield clone and slightly better damage. Also doesn't get arguably owned by defend whoring. Jumping is actually self-sustaining in BP costs, since every turn where Valkyrie's not in the field means a turn where no BP is spent (thus, accumulated). Still, the same struggles given to Kain apply here, 4HKO damage just isn't what you want when playing a pure slugfesting game. High Light.
Red Mage: Relies on BRAVELY DEFAULT POISON to win the average fight, so you know we've got a winner here. The skillset does some fascinatingly weird things, though, between Reflect, Silence, Sleep, the shoddy healing and Protect/Shell. One of the coolest Lights ever, feels like the deranged test tube child of Melody Vilente and Strago Magus.
Salve-Maker: Storebought-only here. Well, the healing is really awesome and the durability, though sketchy, could be worse. Toxic Item actually isn't that bad for offense (four-rounding is kinda questionable, but can be worked with. Poison is a decentish ripple, as is the MP busting). Unfortunately, Inoculate is only very situationally useful, but what can ya do. As typical, Brave shenanigans also help against the frail. Likely a Middle, all in all. If you allow Dragon Fangs/Norende shop, though, he skips straight to Godlike. That buffing game gets vicious and Feel No Pain is ridiculously good when you have actual blitzing to play a Hail Mary game with (ESPECIALLY if you allow multiple Shadowflares, holy fuck pumping out 2x ITD PC HP on the Brave-blitz with gorgeous impunity).
Performer: So many good buffs, so -little- to use them with. Performer would kill to have healing here, it'd actually give her long-term mileage out of her comprehensive buffing game. As is, you have a fast, somewhat frail slugger whose damage needs to be buffed to reach 20HKO territory (being Mint-level offense otherwise). Puny
Pirate: An actually flexible Bravely Default slugger, why I would never. Both Defang and Shin Smash are great, giving Pirate a nice leg-up on his foes, and Shell Split's damage boost is also handy. That said, the money lies mainly on the killer turn, which, depending on setup, can one-round the frail or just one-round average. Still, having the crippling options is nice. A cool High Heavy.
Ninja: If you're physically reliant and slower, you already lost. Ninja can't really do a whole lot besides that, but the decent base speed and possibility to make it higher -do- make this a pretty high mountain to climb. Weirdass Heavy.
Swordmaster: Uh wow. What a load of work. You kinda can't ignore the stances here due to the massive speed they have - good thing ramming into them just halves damage if he's going for the specialized counters and not even that otherwise! The main problem here is really that the counters kinda suck for damage - I mean, the damage halving on Nothing Ventured and Before Swine means they eventually manage wins against an average stats and damage dueller, but the strategy badly fails against healers - sorta like Leehalt minus. Their damage is just so awful outside counters they can't even really hope to reasonably finish anyone off post-counter spamming. Light/Middle is likely right.
Spiritmaster: Some BD duellers like emulating bosses from other games, and Spiritmaster chose to mimic Augst Henriksen. Loses to anyone who has pretty much any sort of backup to elemental damage and risks struggling even against the rare dueller who doesn't. What a sad fate for one of the game's most powerful in-game classes. Puny.
Arcanist: Yet another OHKOer, but this time he's got above average speed! Which is good, because 0.63 pdur is -ugly- and that mdef won't help matters either. Regardless, his overkill is somewhat easier to deal with, since, in spite of clocking in at over 1.4x PC HP, it's entirely Dark-reliant and also rams into mdef. Corpse could be useful in theory, but I can't imagine who would possibly survive an Arcanist blitz yet fail to drop him in the turns needed for the ID to kick in. High Heavy.
Templar: Welp, I think I -do- allow Default to reduce damage for the Templar due to her unique skill, so she's all about tanking all day with that stupendous pdef and then unleashing some hell. Too bad a 4x Desperation string only deals 73% PC HP, but at least she can mount two of those in a row, so she ain't bad in a straight slugfest and has a decent recourse against the openly physically frail. Heal-locks the frailish as well, so it could be worse - though that has to watch out for the terrible speed. Middle.
Dark Knight: The best durability/speed combo out of the OHKOers, but also the one most reliant on HP. Fortunately, no matter what range she stays at, Dark Knight's going to have a tool to apply one-rounding, be it Dark Nebula spamming, be it the ITD threat of Minus Strike, so you either immune physicals, tank the horrifying offense or die. Lives or dies by blitzing, but it's an interesting razor's edge game. Low Godlike works.
Vampire: What a mess of a skillset. Battle Thirst on whatever doesn't resist it is pretty much guaranteed victory, but I'm not sure what kind of immunity I'd see it ramming into. Past that, he's either relying on shakier status (I mean, Charm and Paralysis are accurate, but have erratic duration and Charm in particular gets undone by any damage Vampire does) or running that fascinating parasitic buffing game, which leads him to slowly tower his way to victory. Bypassing defenses and blocking fire likely makes Vampire weep, but how -often- do you see that combo in play? Granted, either one when status isn't an option already gives the guy problems. Weirdass package, but feels honestly very powerful. Heavy/Godlike, sure.
Conjurer: Stacking Susano-o and Promethean Fire hands her a 96% PC HP killer turn, which is all fine and dandy until you realize she's running off Black Mage pdur, Arcanist mdur and below average speed. On the other hand, the evade setup with Hresvelgr gives her a nice spoiling tool against those reliant on basic physicals - which she uh kinda NEEDS in that case because it completely neuters any sort of offensive game she could possibly muster. The other buffs could be pretty potent, but, much like Performer, just don't really pan out well without healing. Light/Middle, I suppose? Mostly out of the physical spoiling game, which is likely terrifying in Light.
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Pressure Point can be used twice immediately and easily KOs all but the highest-HP PCs. I don't think its BP cost is that big an issue.
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2 base BP means it can't be used twice in a row without Default (-1 from just getting a turn, another -1 for a Brave, so Monk's at -4 after the first Pressure Point. That's the limit for negative BP). It's the same problem with Godspeed Strike.
EDIT: It's 1 BP! Nevermind. Why is Godspeed Strike 2 BP again?
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Because you get it earlier and it is on a support skill set so has some opportunity cost to equip it. Monk's utility skills apparently don't counter the benefits of theft (which BD does have an okay steal list so far from what I have seen!).
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Bravely Default, of course:
I'm not sure how much I respect default as halving damage. Depends how many PCs use it often no doubt.
Freelancer: Endure every 3 turns, and turtle with Treat. This actually works out pretty okay. Gets thrashed by any status it can't block (ANY), and any sort of limit or stall-breaker (it's a non-infinite stall I'd actually respect FF13 summon against), and any sort of spiky defence-ignoring damage (DQ crits) but it can actually slowly punch through more of Light than you'd think.
Monk: Below average speed but OHKOs average, or overkills if defence isn't an issue. Does not like counters much (most FE beats him due to being average speed and finishing on a counter). The speed build may be better pretty often actually, Default then unleash a low OHKO, same weaknesses apply though. High Heavy sure.
White Mage: Needs almost all her MP just to kill with Holy unfortunately, which doens't leave much for healing of buffing. The pdur isn't even a major concern here, which is a bad sign. Light.
Black Mage: Very dangerous if he gets a turn, has OHKO damage of several elements (all ITD) and a bunch of status which mostly serves to get past counters. Sluggish and fragile are big limits on the performance, though. Heavy.
Knight: Holy shit, dual shield Supercharge is dumb. Physical immune with OHKO damage. Good mages can deal with her, but not very well. Status is the way to go and BD blockers aren't too bad. High Heavy.
Thief: Default twice, Godspeed Strike twice, collect victory. With all the speed, this works pretty well. Makes a -huge- difference as to whether you let Default work though since Thief isn't likely to take a hit while not defaulting. I'll just say Middle/Heavy for now, the interp call likely makes the division difference.
Merchant: Fuck this why does it have damage. Heavy. Like Black Mage (better pdur, worse mdur) except worthless at damage in-game.
Spell Fencer: Instant death whore. Also Silence whore if the opponent is REALLY helpless when silenced. I don't think she's really good for much else, Sleep is too unreliable to win with that damage, and it's difficult to use both it and poison simultaneously without going into huge BP negatives. Still makes Heavy because yeah instant death and non-fail durability. Doesn't like evasive FE though (counter each failed ID attempt!).
Time Mage: Hello FF5, I've played you before. Well over 2x overkill if he gets a turn. Durability and speed... see Black Mage. So very similar to BM, except he kills a huge number of bosses, too. High Heavy.
Ranger: I'm surprised Ranger didn't get more damage. Has a 6HKO (often 5HKO) and evade won't help, so can often win in 2-3 turns and is fast... but ugh, that durability. Middle.
Summoner: See Ranger, except harder to counter due to unreflectable NE MT magic being the best damage type pretty much. On the other hand, much slower, and more fragile, and a bit less damage, and can run out of MP which makes heal-locks difficult. High Light.
Valkyrie: A number of fighters get abilities which allow them to actually look like in-game BD physical classes. Valkyrie (along with Spell Fencer) does not, so the damage just looks bad. It's depressing that Crescent Moon does less damage in the DL than I had it doing in C2. Uh anyway, hope to hell the opponent can't heal/buff, use Spirit Barrier to extend own durability, and start Jumpin'. Light.
Red Mage: POIZN hype, aw yeah. It's a little hard to get that game going, since the healing really isn't great and missed sleeps are nasty, but it's a fun little game. Stats are better than you'd expect from Red Mage. Light/Middle.
Salve-Maker: Doesn't blitz very well, and is a bit vulnerable to heal-locks. Another huge beneficiary from Default's damage reduction, though, as Default->heal and Toxic X-Potion is very handy to avoid those 2HKOs. There's also MP killing, although I need to think about that. Middle? But yeah, don't rank/nom, of course.
Performer: Has a 20HKO once the buffs are in place (which in fairness happens easily and is permanent). With default's damage reduction allowed she can stockpile turns to half damage 3/4 of the time en route to this kill, but uh... yeah. Puny.
Pirate: Lots of damage, and Defang is great. Very versatile in how it operates, either a biltzer or Defang -> wait to finish the job. High Heavy.
Ninja: Utsusemi beats clearly non-typed damage too, so get magic or multiacting or be faster than Ninja (not easy) or get out. The damage is pretty bad though which can lead to some problems. She can -somewhat- mitigate counters (unless they're magic) but otherwise the weakensses are pretty clear. Heavy.
Swordmaster: Um. The counters are okay but they seem like they'll just lose a lot of slugfests? Know Thine Enemy 4HKOs (which most duellers deal with), the physical counter is about half as damage but halves damage, the magic counter is a bit better (5HKO but halves incoming damage as well) so useful against pure mages... maybe. Light/Middle and a headache. Too bad the damage is so awful or she could brave-blitz to finish the opponent off after trading counters.
Spiritmaster: Puny with some element spoiling which will occasionally spoil those COMPLETELY reliant on elements, but since he's got a 60HKO or so (less with refreshing Spirit Ward every 3 turns) it really does need to be complete. And uh even then he may run out of MP before killing.
Arcanist: Lots of goofy tricks, but screw them, Inter x4 for the win. If dark is blocked, instead Corpse then Default and survive 1.5/2 enemy attacks... off bad durability, so probably not. She's faster than the other OHKO mages though so is probably the best despite the dark reliance and even lower durability? High Heavy.
Templar: Default a few times, unleash hell. Sadly this will need at least two turns against most. Middle? Even if I don't allow normal default damage reduction I'll allow some version of it here.
Dark Knight: Bravely Default OHKOer. So that means they're probably... wait, they're not fragile? And above average speed? Oh but it's dark reliant... oh wait not really, thanks to Minus Strike. Low Godlike. The way Dark Nebula dominates is a little different from in-game, but it's still a nice translation.
Vampire: Has a bunch of status, mostly Charm and paralysis which are a bit flaky, and battle thirst. I'm not sure what blockers I'd see getting that, but yeah it's a win if not blocked. When that's out, physical tanking is the main game. Against mages and those with ITD who can null the status (or null fire and battle thirst; the other statuses are probably too flaky for Vampire to win without fire), though, Vampire is out of luck. The whole package is a headache and I'd love to see a proving grounds but definitely either Heavy or Godlike, probably not too far from the border either way.
Conjurer: There are buffs but the damage/speed/durability is too weak to support them (needs 7 actions to kill average, and it's of a terrible type, individual evadable physicals...)... except buffing to perfect evade. Perfect evade is certainly handy to have and will beat some Light; this is basically Kimahri minus Lancet and with worse stats. (...)
Selected bosses... i.e. plot-important people and Holly. Some minor but predictable spoilers here, the larger spoilers are guarded of course.
Holly: We know the story here, right? Middle. Healing which can wall damage up to around 56% of average PC, and not much else beyond good durability.
Einheria: Boss dragoon. Has a OHKO jump so you'd better be able to do something on the off turns to mitigate that (although I could see disrespecting this move some because you're highly encouraged to default against it in-game). If you can you just need to deal with a big bucket of HP + Spirit Barrier to make it worse. High Heavy.
Kamiizumi: Um yeah Know Thine Enemy is gross in a duel. 3x overkill counters? Not even Mewtwo can really deal with that (and it gets worse if he can predict your damage type and you're a mage). Below half of his 3 PCHP he can dispense with that nonsense and do pretty close to that once on his own turn, crucial for tipping a slugfest. And has over 3PCHP? Holy crap, High Godlike. I guess physical walls can deal with him but Fou-Lu has a difficult fight here which says all you need to know. I guess anyone who attacks both sides at once can get around Know Thine Enemy, but I believe that's the only way?
Victor: Low 2HKO, kinda sluggish, very tanky. Walling Holy helps but not much since his physical is okay. Low Godlike.
Victoria: As Victor, only a bit less durable (still close to 4PC), with a less blocked element and the ability to brave-blitz and corpse to kill healers. Low Godlike.
Braev: Total badass. Defaults as much as he wants (damage quartering? Ick), then you die. Then he does it again because his HP is monstrous. High Godlike, again only really fears physical walls and even then he matches up well.
Alternis: For the first half of the battle, whatever 2HKO dark damage. For the second, ITD 3PCHP overkill. I should probably mention that his HP is, like the other C4 bosses, ridiculous. High Godlike.
Vampire asterisk: Rank Sufal Mass! Anyway Vampire is good times; he can effectively put out OHKO damage every turn against PCs and the durability is not bad, if a step down from the previous bosses. He also can't do anything to someone with standard boss immunities, ever (at least if you restrict bosses to their in-game BP restrictions as I do). I dunno what you wanna call that, we'll say Heavy.
Conjurer asterisk: Okay after that little relapse we're back to the bosses who are silly good. 2x overkill damage to either defence, solid 2.5-3 range durability, kinda slow but who cares, High Godlike.
No stat topic for the final bosses but applying some mental math to go from Hard->Normal...
I wouldn't even read these last two if you care about gameplay spoilers.
Piercer of boundaries: OHKO physical with a BP recoil, what I assume is OHKO magic, can default then dispel+get even more damage, bunch of nasty status tricks just in case. Durability's excellent (5PCish?) and speed is actually averagish instead of bad like most of the other bosses. High Godlike.
Not actually a snake: Again decent speed, though durability's not as good (still uh 3PC+). Accurate instant death and solid damage which can be buffed to what I assume is OHKO? The main gimmick is sealing off all but Defend and Summon Friend which is a headache in the DL. Godlike regardless, though, but less ridiculously good than a number of the rest! Bit of a gap between plot and gameplay power there, but I doubt anyone is too upset by this.
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Kamizumi faces no restriction on when he can start Bravex2->Physical 3 times. He can do that right from the start I am fairly certain (though I think his first two turns may be locked in). He just does nothing BUT that below 25% HP.
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Well that's even less spoilable.
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NEB, are you not giving the bosses any penalty for the ability to brave them right at the end?
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A minor one, as well as a slight one to all optional bosses for being optional.
EDIT: Though hmm I may have lowballed the respect hit somewhat. Brave-blitzing gives you 12 "free" actions at the end of the fight... but I wouldn't hold the full wrath of that against bosses, because bungling a brave-blitz is a good way to die horribly. I'd probably count half of that, 6 free hits instead which is... still a good chunk of a bar of PCHP to take off most bosses (except bosses who fight in pairs where the penalty should probably be reduced). I'd been mentally lopping off closer to a third of a bar.
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I guess the other thing (which Pyro can probably tell us) if the averages include buffs effect. I'm not to the point yet, but seems like there are some potent MT ones. I'm assuming that since the average he has the final is higher than the DL average that something is likely factoring in there (it could also be just assuming that classes with hideous damage are running something with decent damage as a secondary).
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Pyro said that he did include buffs; in fact, the spike in damage that occurs after getting Performer is pretty much entirely due to that. (Hence the debate in the other thread as to when the Performer asterisk is earned!) Another reason the in-game average is higher than DL is because of cross-class twinking (Two Hands, Two Swords, Pierce MDef, stat boost skills, etc.) - you'd never have an endgame Spell Fencer or Valkyrie with damage anywhere -near- as bad as the one in the stat thread. The damage averages in BD are pretty fluid with your setup; I found Pyro's figures generally quite reasonable (Performer-related specifics aside) for what it's worth.
(This is one of the reasons classes like Merchant (or Salve-Maker) having good damage is something I find a bit annoying; not only does the cost make them undesirable choices for offence in-game, but they're benefiting from using fixed damage skills scaled against a number of classes suffering due to lack of cross-class twinking. And High Leverage is freaking suicide in-game unless you know you're about to win which is a much smaller % of BD boss fights than it is of DL matches. Stupid Merchant.)
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Regarding Bravely Default boss durability:
If you factor in Brave-blitzing a boss as soon as it can possibly be done in a perfect fashion, then it just lops off exactly 1.2 PCHP in HP off the total (this is subtractive, mind, as an otherwise 3 PCHP boss is 1.8 while a 4 PCHP boss is 2.8)
This is a little bit on the extreme side, and also assumes you scan the enemy HP bar. Assuming 6 'free' actions at the end is instead subtracting 0.6 PCHP from the total... which is considerably less than a third for most of them.
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Soul Nomad! The cast is pretty much wacky Fire Emblem. Quick lowdown on my views: no generics in averages (lolno at Odie with OHKO damage, given that he was ranked in Middle...), counters are go but only against other attacks (and not MT attacks), melee attackers can only counter melee.
Revya - Average damage, melee counters, average enough stats, gets a OHKO move given time. Can buff attack then 2HKO as well. Not overly impressive. Middle. Unsure as to whether to consider her with first strike, which would certainly help if allowed... gets closer to the Heavy border then. I don't consider summon. DNR since apparently some people do and yeah no that is too large an interpsplit.
Danette - Revya trading durability for speed, damage, faster access to her special, and a significantly better speed buff. Does hate magic, though. High Middle.
Grunzford - Whoa he's good. Nice HP, 2HKO damage, a shot healing. Can OHKO after an attack buff and has good matchups against plenty of physical types. Hates magic (especially fire/lightning) but pretty badass otherwise. High Heavy.
Juno - Another standard fighter. Moderately tanky and can heal once, and her attack buff (which does the usual 3HKO->2HKO) also boosts speed a little which is a nice package. The limit is less nasty than some, but realistically if she's getting it she's winning most fights anyhow. Her weaknesses aren't too common either; a small offence hit against some physicals which she can usually manage. Middle/Heavy.
Layna - All-around impressive. 2HKO damage, or buff to a really high 2HKO, or a great speed buff... her defensive buff is also good enough to be useful too. Outstanding durability (1.6 HP, even better pdur) and great overall matchups (no real weaknesses outside MUSIC). Only downside is that her damage is merely good, and of not a great type... but still. Heavy/Godlike.
Odie - Well he's fragile, certainly. But not as much as he could be. The pdur is about 0.58 on paper but thanks to defensive matchups he's often physically tanky in practice; he has a solid 2HKO and he counters. Pretty great aside from ranged physicals (which turn him into fine powder) and lightning resistance, although he's good enough that he can often deal with mere halving. Middle/Heavy, not sure how good this package is in practice and would love to see it in proving grounds.
Tricia - Physically frail and unlike Odie matchups tend to make this much, much worse. Her damage is also really bad, low 4HKO or buff to low 3HKO. She does counter everything ST and looks really good against mages in general, but that fighter weakness is hard to deal with especially since she's in the division dominated by them. Light. A shame given her skill at mage-slaying in-game.
Vitali - The weird one. Explodes to physicals generally (bad def, bad HP, weak to a bunch of physical types). Still, he can heal once, then three more times as a free action on each attack once he unlocks his limit on turn 3-4, and he's great against magic for a huge number of reasons. For physicals... at least he has healing and counters, but they won't work well in much of Light. Oh well, works better than Raja! Light.
No estimates of squad damage for the bosses make this difficult, so I'm going off of memory.
Thuris - The tricky thing here is the speed. He's about 2x average, but can't move, so anyone with long range first strikes him. Those with short may or may not be able to... depends on move. For my sanity's sake I'll split the difference and count him as half his listed speed (206%) first turn against melee types. He's rather frail (70-80% at a guess, though untested type matchups make him worse against physicals and better against magic probably) but he has a high 2HKO of both types and constantly doubles, so you'd better make that first turn count! You need to be really fast to avoid the instant double to me, so yeah. Heavy.
Raksha - Raksha's mdur is similar to Thuris', but the pdur is about twice as good! He also regens 20% of his max HP each turn which is not negligble. Slower than Thuris, but I have to think the durability/regen more than cancels that out, especially since the no-movement thing means the speed isn't quite as good as it could be. He's not really a great place matchup-wise IIRC, losing to magic and spoiling relatiely DL-rare ranged, but eh he'll still kill some mages and he's evil against everyone else in the division. High Heavy.
Drazil - Can't bring myself to care; a more boring Raksha (no regen but better mdur). Same area?
Other bosses - Trash. No amount of support credit is going to make that HP not suck; you can OHKO them in-game. Except Gestahl, but guess what he gets no support credit and his HP is less than a quarter of Raksha's fought later. Bunch of Lights, the only question is how bad. I know some of them are memorable characters but still, don't nom 'em.
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Quick lowdown on my views: no generics in averages (lolno at Odie with OHKO damage, given that he was ranked in Middle
Just to note, that if you don't add in generics that are still I think...6? 8? named generics you always guess (2 Nereid, 2 Archers, 4 Knights, IIRC. I suppose you can see those like FFT (Rad/Lavian/Alicia), but given how in FFT you have 5 PCs in game and about 10 special PCs and Soul Nomad you have like 50+ PCs and about 10 special PCs, I would say that scale alone puts them in a different ballpark).
That also said, Odie was ranked Middle by the skin of his teeth (and probably also by technicality due to the misnomer that was Low Heavy equating to dead borderline instead of an actual low Heavy numeric rank. If Low Heavy was actually the more sensible 3.9375 then Odie would have been ranked Heavy. Actually, also then Middle would be 3.375 and that would boost him up more).
Thuris may have a better case than most for support credit as he can summon enemies before you can get to him, so if melee tends to wait just outside of his range and then strike the next turn, I seem to remember that his response is to summon.
Play Demon Path! See much more rankable forms for the other bosses!
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Yeah, I know Odie is borderline Heavy (and I certainly agreed with that ranking, you'll note!). You know as well as I do that that ranking is completely inappropriate if he has OHKO damage.
Mm, I think the average including the likes of Agrippa and Pinot is enough average-dragging for me already, and regardless yeah, the FFT parallel holds (I also don't consider XF generics, Brig monsters, etc.). While it's true you use a large number of PCs in Soul Nomad, most of those aren't leaders, and we're clearly treating the PCs as leaders in the DL, of which you probably use 6-7... so not too different from other similar cases like FFT and XF.
Anyway I will note that I think the cast is perfectly fine (and was very well-ranked!) even with my take on the averages.
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In fairness, like FFT, XF generics are not a comparable situation (they are semi-standard SRPG class fare where you get enough PCs to fill your roster in the end without them. My cutoff tends to be around 50%, so no Disgaea either for me). Brig's are at least semi comparable (minus that monsters can't be used as leaders, so in that leaders are a bit separate. I know that before some special PCs were available, I would run generic variants as leaders, so it's definitely a consideration).
I would say that Pinot is pretty well balanced by Layna (Agrippa is a completely valid person to run with as a leader in game. He's a mobile Tricia, which is awesome). I guess if not including generics, I'd probably see Layna, Danette and Revya's stats a little lower (you get bonuses for running same classes in game, which is a distinct advantage that does temper Layne a bit in comparison to other special PCs). I can always respect not dragging down averages too much, minus that there are DL casts where it's not even considered because someone has a name and line of plot and never have any real reason to be used at all, but the line of plot and the name get them into the averages. Generics that have a valid reason to be still be used in game (and need to be used on some level) feel like a different case to me. The only true comparable ranked equivalent is Ogre Battle (although as noted, Brig isn't too far too. Brig of course has the advantage that monsters don't really do much to averages. I guess the flip is that Brig lets you use a good number of monsters that are better than Rune Knights, while SN doesn't have much equivalent there which is why SN specials felt so amazing (which is turn why I like rewarding that in the DL. SN special advantage felt so much more significant in game than say...Mogu/Gobi, a Suikoscrub parade, or for those two take it this way, FE 10 unshifted Laguz). So a long winded paragraph basically boiling down to if there's better in game basis, I like going with that.
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(modest SN spoilers for this post)
I guess I don't get that same in-game feeling. For instance, I thought Levin was quite bad as a PC (I felt it was a Sialeeds-type case so you wouldn't feel bad when he left), but in your proposed average that includes dozens of scrubs, he actually starts to look quite good! 140% HP and 2HKO damage! I just didn't process the leaders and the generics on the same scale, same with Brig.
I guess if you take a harsher view on counters this may somewhat balance this, but I'm curious as to how you feel about the rankings of the cast in the DL now. We don't seem to think the cast is that different ranking-wise from your old notes in the ranking thread which surprises me.
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I actually agree on Levin...not because of his pure stats, which are awesome, but because I feel like the game gives you often short range fighters who all have advantages over him (Danette has better buffs, I like Juno's overall typing more, Grunzford smash, Revya is Revya). Looking at him again, I really don't like that typing, which goes far (Since average magic damage easily 2HKOs him, and he will not be 2HKOing back). So certainly he doesn't feel as awesome as Agrippa, Tricia and Odie did, since they generally are replacing similar generic classes. I would reward give them their due than limit him. As such, I can see the point, but just feel that there's so much more in game balance than the other casts I mentioned. Maybe it's more a matter that I tend to feel that those casts shouldn't be inflated by excesses of scrubs, so if there are better in game reasons for it, then I'm cool with that. I'm assuming for OB you only take the main PCs then also?
Counters will be a big difference between us. I only allow counters when there is a range advantage (However, when buffing there is a range advantage, so it's not like short range fighters still can't get some use of them. Also, they can generally drop a little damage to get a semi-ranged attack, which I tend to waffle back and forth on). Certainly giving them more counters certainly mitigates a lot of the effect.
The stat differences are pretty big, but typing can be somewhat overriding. So while Odie is a Heavy, he struggles against a fair amount of healers, ranged fighters, and people with Lightning resistance, so it's extremely easy to stop him (and also the cast has limited status protection that not widely allowed). The flip is that either way, SR fighters tend to hate him.
Typing can also override stats at times, and inability to deal with status tends to be a big flaw in higher divisions, so that keep really anyone from Heavy and up down regardless of stat differences. Layna especially is a big case there. Trends too nasty for Heavy, but Godlikes will often either have better slugging or some status to take her down too quickly. Even with stats, Odie is still slow and elementally dependent. Think about him versus say...Nelis or Estella. It's not like he should really be so much higher than them overall (obviously there's a bunch of factors to weigh).
(Also most minor of notes, but for me at least Odie doesn't OHKO given my accuracy factoring. Almost, but done quite).
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I haven't played OB, actually! So no comments there. (Well, I've played it for about an hour, but I'm not going to weigh in anything DL-wise, beyond "boss Warren is a terrible Light".)
Fair enough, beyond that. It's possible I'm underestimating the effect of elemental defence in Odie's specific case. I think Nelis is a decent comparison for him as is, whereas if I saw him with (near-)OHKO damage I'd see him more comparable to Geddoe. His weakness to "healers" seems mostly moot because I can't think of many opponents I would class as cleric-like who are actually in Heavy, and not too many in Middle (Jessica? Whom he handles anyway surely). Most heavy healers I would class as something else offhand (Billy = guns, Artea = mage?, Nina4 = wind mage, etc. Billy of course beats him anyway). The ranged fighter weakness does suck, but he matches up so well against anyone else who lacks lightning defence, and counters help a whole lot to mitigate lightning halving.
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This may be another way we differ. I classify enemies as whatever the last time of move they used last was, so basically against healers, Odie gets that penalty (that way I don't have to consider which overriding trait resembles a character most). This of course, is far less beneficial to SN (since now plenty of people have two types of damage where by SN qualifications they only have one), but it prevents me needing to pin down like that. So for any enemies with both a passable magic and physical attack, it's a large advantage over SN. SN characters (well, ones which skewed typing) may prefer your scaling over mine, extra stats be damned.
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That also helps explain things, yes!
The way I see it, SN characters can never, ever change their typing. When a SN soldier/etc. heals using Medication/Energize or a similar ability, their typing remains the same the next time they are attacked. I agree that it is somewhat arbitrary figuring out what typing each enemy counts as, but hey so it goes.
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Oh, I wouldn't see Wrath Rune or Energy Sword...etc, changing type. But for a legitimate targetable healing move (or certainly for many fully classed physical/magical splits...which is turn makes me think that Karin or Tio wouldn't apply, but any Suikoden character with an magic attack rune would. I guess Karin would be swordswoman and Tio would be... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...oh god, a Thuris robot? I don't even have typing notes on those. There's no great fit there.) there would be type changes for me.
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Djinn edited into his Rondo of Swords topic thoughts on all the duelers, and they mostly look right to me. RoS is one of the rare games that may be more votable off reading an LP rather than playing the game, since hooooly crap in-game documentation in RoS is a thing. Now add in that if you survive a RoS playthrough, you probably have to play through the game again… ugh.
A few things that the DL makes weird vs. in-game: I'm not sure I can easily think of another SRPG where movement is quite the god stat it is as Rondo of Swords. High move means not only being able to attack multiple enemies at once, but also getting the drop on enemy mages before they blow you up, or successfully executing hit-and-run strikes. Low move means moving in near the enemy lines, conceding first strike, and hoping for the best. High move *and* threat range (True Arrows wtf) a la Ansom / Naji is insanely good, equivalent almost to a Bolting/Mire tome in FIre Emblem games. Now add in that battles are "scored" by how fast you complete them a la Valkyria Chronicles. Yeah, it's too bad that move doesn't mean more. Flip side, Djinn's assumptions of maxed skill levels skips the majority of the game where skill points seem pretty tight (from Einander's LP, at least, where he built Ansom quite differently between Route A & Route B), and he doesn't reflect a few of the character's issues that would theoretically go away by endgame, sort of (Galahad's insanely late promotion that is usually impossible to access, Elmer's crippling underleveledness on join, etc.). Oh well! Also, the Revitalize skill of "heal 300 HP to self", which got basically no notice from Einander (slows you down when you could be pushing forward, costs a slot, use your darn healer), ends up pretty badass in the DL.
The RoS cast is also funny in the DL thanks to having 10 mage characters who generally have HP ranging from "meh" to "bad" to "pathetic" but also solid damage. Magic counts as magic resist, too, so check out the MDef list - 10 excellent MDef characters, and 14 characters allergic to magic. So the result is a bunch of mages with scary damage who get run over by fighters, and fighters who are very tanky (especially vs. physicals) but have bad damage. Amusing.
Anyway, a very brief rundown of some plot-centric characters, and then a few other amusing ones, for my own thoughts (although again, see Djinn's topic for his more complete list):
Altrius / "Serdic" - Pretty good, probably the cast's best dueler. High Heavy. Arch Paladin has Revitalize / Vital Power / amazing defense for stall-spam - 393 RoS HP is .94 raw PCHP, which ends up as an effective 1.57 PCHP of healing a turn vs. physicals thanks to his defense, which is ludicrous. Cold Emperor has a pile of HP thanks to Invoke Life, a shockingly relevant 10% HP regen, good damage, and Seven Sins as a nasty finisher if a battle goes long vs. a healer. They both have the wacky MC increase trick to deal with status-slingers who are either slower than average speed or whose status is turn 2, and Arch Paladin has Angelic Word to screw up even fast turn 1 status. His damage is okay for Heavy but not amazing, it's mostly the incredible tanking that's going to win him matches (if held to one form, he probably wants Arch Paladin, actually). Be a mage with badass damage, or have some infinite buff / healing trick, if you want to beat him; Altrius only really fears Zerase types.
Marie - Puny. 0.27 PDurability and infinite healing, even the low-damage types who don't OHKO her heal-lock her then wait for a double / critical hit / something. Can deal with Puny Mages, maybe, though!
Aegil - Low Middle? Mages have authentic trouble getting damage to stick vs. her, and too many fighters in Light only 3HKO her, which is death. She minorly spoils archers and status-slingers too, but gets spoiled by holy resistance or MP-busting (she doesn't have infinite MP like Marie, but she does have a lot of it).
Igraine - Cosmically bad vs. physicals, Igraine is still better than Marie because she actually has good damage and even better magical defense, and thus solidly spoils Light mages…. well, pure mages. Fast mages with any sort of physical fallback that doesn't totally fail crush her anyway! Low Light.
Less plot but interesting:
Margus - Altrius's brutal infinite stall game, except with no damage and no status resistance until his turn (although he can go immune after). Low Heavy, like FF13 Sentinel Snow without a Summon to build into.
Arios - Somehow Heavy despite the awful HP & Defense. Emitting a OHKO every turn is pretty good I hear. Most lopsided stat build in the game, all the damage, gamebest magic which means gamebest magic resistance, gameworst defense, and amazingly awful HP. He can outslug *Godlike* pure mages with that resistance, and plenty of good fighters who are nevertheless slower than average will get nuked first in the race for the OHKO. Probably the 2nd best dueler in the cast. Funny.
Izuna - Invoke Life / Vital Power for a pile of HP & regen, Angelic Word for status, and a powerful Overbreak she can even access faster if she gives up her damage (although 1-range-at-start-of-turn means respecting it less vs. ranged enemies). Kind of like Cold Emperor but with much worse defense. Low Heavy.
Naji - Djinn, RandomConsonant, and I talked out Bravely Default Performer vs. Naji in chat. Performer probably wins, which considering Performer's performance in the Puny Proving Grounds should really say it all. (they both give each other lots of time, Naji to get criticals off his high 37% rate, Performer to increase her stats off Buff Up + Support Amp… but Naji probably needs ~8 shots to kill, while Performer should kill in 7 actions + finishing Brave Blitz, and will also be increasing her speed & defense the whole time. So Naji needs to get 3 crits out of 6 or something. An amazing Puny. (read Einander's LP! Despite being worse than Ansom, Naji actually has a real niche in-game, where enemy mages are made of paper but are deadly, so Naji's okay-for-a-fighter magic and super-long range make him good at mage-sniping.)
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Also, since I was digging this up for other reasons, a guide to Tactics Ogre characters and the DL, with the focus more on "sanity for voting" rather than division rank. Here's who's in TOPSP with the disclaimer that even those on all-routes are all missable if you get them killed before join (except for Olivya of all people, I think):
All routes:
Arycelle, Canopus, Donnalto, Gildas (L/C)*, Hobyrim, Mirdyn, Olivya, Sherri
Warrior Denam, Guest Catiua
C2 & C3 boss Vyse / Leonar [stats might change somewhat but not hugely]
C4 bosses
Splitpath:
Bayin (N/C), Cerya (N/C), Cistina (N/C), Dievold (N), Folcurt (N/C), Jeunan (L), Ocionne (L), Oelias (N), PC Ozma (L), Ravness (L), Xapan (L), PC Vyse (L)
Lord Denam, PC Catiua (Priest & underlevel Princess), boss Catiua
Postgame and/or ridiculous FAQ-bait:
Azelstan, Cressida (C), Deneb, Ganpp & pals, Lanselot, Lindl, Iuria, Rudlum, Warren; also Shaman Phoraena sisters & PC Dark Priest Catiua
Named generics, yawn:
Chamos(N), Ehlrig (N), Felicia, Phaesta (N), Sara, Tamuz (N), Voltare
Nobody plays only Neutral so Gildas seems safe to stick in "All routes".
A few of these are touchy; Ravness / Sherri / PC Ozma / Cerya-in-Neutral recruitments are FAQ-bait but they're plot relevant; Ocionne joins super-late in Law but at least is theoretically ready to go on join if you previously leveled Beast Tamer, while Lindl, who also joins super-late in the main game, has Fusilier guaranteed to be level 1, making me lean toward it being postgame.
Additionally, Lord Denam is a bit wacky in that Lord's big advantage is the ability to use a ton of normally other-class exclusive skills like Phalanx & Double Attack. However, Lord doesn't learn these skills itself, although the cost to buy a Knight's Classmark early and grab Phalanx at least is pretty trivial (if you know to do it, since the game only gives you 1 Classmark, sigh). It is still a pretty unique niche, more so than say the Fire Emblem Awakening Avatar or Morgan having full mix-and-match skill access in the aftergame, but another headache for the interp.
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Given how important level is in TO I'll be stunned if Lord ends up worth much even if you give him highly DL-questionable skills from classes which aren't Lord or Warrior. Just look at how much Priest Catiua suffered, Lord and Princess will have it even worse.
At some point I'll be in the mood for another run through of TO and when I do I'll probably get Jeunan / Ocionne / Ozma / Ravness / Xapan / Vyse / Sherri. Neutral-only PCs can expect a long wait because as you noted yeah almost nobody does this as their only playthrough (and even as a second it's rare in my experience?) and TO isn't such a solid rank that I think Neutral-only PCs make much sense as ranking ideas.
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Are we not assuming equal levels for classes? (I can certainly see the argument, but generally I figured DL still assumed equal level even for stuff like Lord and princess?)
Personally, considering how forgettable so many of the TO characters are, I feel weird not allowing the most memorable ones (Denam and Catiua) their unique classes at reasonable levels.
(Edit: hell yeah RoS analysis! What a fun DL cast)
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Well if you take everyone at equal level that's your right, but that's not really the most common DL view any more.
Personally I can't say I found classes which were entirely useless the maingame due to being gained at level 1 in late chapter 4 (and split-path at that! I didn't even get Lord myself) to be at all "memorable" but hey go with what works for you.
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I'm not speaking from personal experience really. I haven't beaten the game yet, but I know while playing I've been planning for using Den and Cat with their cool classes. But I dunno exactly how late that ends up being compared to endgame or how "experience deprived" it makes their classes and whether their innate cool stuff can compensate for said problem.
Also not sure whether World card stuff should be considered at all due to the path split stuff.
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For what it's worth Denam (and Ozma, not that anyone would ever consider ranking *her*) can easily solo 2-3 random battles in his unique class at an early spot like Tynemouth Hill and get about 90% of the way caught up in levels. That's what I did when I World'd back to get the Lord class.
Princess is way too fragile to solo a fight like that, so she needs to get levels the hard way which takes forever. I swapped her to Princess ASAP and dragged her through every single optional C4 sidequest except the Palace of the Dead (which mostly gives crap exp anyways) and IIRC she didn't get fully caught up in levels until the postgame. Luckily pure healers can function underlevelled so long as you're careful about keeping them from getting too exposed.
Note that Princess isn't all that great a class in-game until you reach undead-heavy optional areas due to its Red Mage-like stat build, although I suppose it would actually be helpful in the relative to her other options for that very reason.
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I probably should have been more direct and said that one of the slight goals in posting the above was a "pls no Denam" due to the awful division split. (That and Warrior Denam, while votable, is also super-boring.) I'd think Ozma is weirdly enough a better idea than Denam - boss Ozma is apparently a Middle, PC Ozma with equal levels is probably a Low Heavy or something a la Arycelle, PC Ozma a level or two behind is probably a High Middle, so she isn't all over the map. Denam meanwhile is probably a calamitous split between Low Middle & Godlike... if a topic was ever made that assumed a bit more grinding / optional content at endgame AND allowed the off-class skills for Lord. Ozma meanwhile always has her boss form as a fallback that isn't pathsplit.
I'd actually be amenable to voting Lord Denam if we had numbers for it and people agreed it was legal, but it's very much something that's up to the person making the stat topic, so I'm happy to defer to whoever stuck in the work's set of levels. (I suspect Lord Denam would be L19 to a L22 average or so, which is awful but not crippling. Possibly even L23 to L24 average if you wait a bit more. But it's moot.)
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You are vastly underestimating how effective Knight Commander would be if taken at equal levels. It has the best all-around stats in the game (including gamebest speed for a human), great action skills (Intercession nulls the next magic attack for 50 TP, Ivory Tower is physical immunity for a whole turn for 75 TP) and a decent claim to Double Attack, although it's shakier than Lord's. Best possible interp for her would be high heavy, only worse than Lord only due to Ivory Tower's TP cost being noticably higher than Phalanx's.
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I know about the awesome stats, yes, but not sure that takes her that far? I suspect she needs to be granted Double Attack and higher levels to really get that hype going. Elf's average damage in the stat topic is 45 - assuming hypothetically a whip does 60 damage, Elf claims that 0.25 points of damage dealt = 1 TP, so that's gaining 11 TP an attack + 6-7 TP a turn (less since she's fast, but she gets the turns more often). I don't think she'll be able to maintain constant Intercession spam, and certainly won't be able to throw it up turn 1 even with me granting a free turn of TP & MP, which is a big problem in Heavy. Ivory Tower is gained at level 23 so that's an issue as well. I'll grant that equal-levels at L24+ looks good for PC Ozma as she can screw up Heavy bruisers even worse than TO characters usually do, but she already had Whip finishers, so Ivory Tower won't even make THAT much difference.
If she's granted Double Attack that'd help at gaining TP super fast but apparently getting classmarks to change back to Knight Commander involves stealing from specific enemies so screw that. (Also she's iconically equipped with a whip so I'm not hugely hyped at allowing DA anyway.) Anyway I for one would be happy to vote Ozma with a 1 or 2 level disadvantage anyway, which would definitely keep her out of the upper echelons of Heavy, and probably in Middle anyway.
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The problem with "game-best stats" is that TO runs a fairly tight curve so "game-best speed" just means "somewhat above average" for instance. And without a shield her durability will be okay at best (shields are ridiculously important for hit-taking in TO) which Ozma seems ill-suited for unless she has levels in non-whip weapons.
And yeah in general any strategies which rely on TP abilities require that TO characters face physical opponents to actually build up TP at a reasonable clip. 75 TP is a lot in the DL. The game's kill point is under 120 so characters gain ~30 TP from attacking before killing something, so if the opponent is a fighter then techs are only useful in stallfests. (And don't kid yourself, Denam's most useful TP skill will be the Warrior's 1.5x damage one, not Phalanx or whatever.) And we're talking Heavy here, where almost everyone, even fighters, can bust limits or pull out fatal status or do all sorts of other things TO characters hate which keep them from excelling in that division.
I also think the combination of things needed to make these characters uber reeks of bizarre favouritism (Nino-style level situation! Skills from other classes! Class you only get by killing off another PC!), and I would expect anyone holding said combination of views to be an outlier whom I wouldn't worry about affecting the overall ranking of the character.
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Well if you take everyone at equal level that's your right, but that's not really the most common DL view any more.
I don't even think it's a common view for any game (see PS 4, BoF 1...etc), let alone a game like TO where level semi functions as a god stat.
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Those particular games are ones where certain characters are just better at gaining levels than others, and it's reflecting an advantage they have in-game. Level penalties are trickier because, while equal experience is a good baseline, anyone using these characters would unbalance their exp distribution in some manner in order to make them viable in the first place. There's a case for severe ones in limited exp games (Nino as the easy example), but in a game where you can just fight extra battles to catch someone up, the penalty should instead reflect how much effort is required.
I haven't played TO very much, so I'm just going to use easy numbers. Supposing endgame is about level 40, strict FE-style equal experience might assume Lord is level 20 for the stat topic, which makes no sense to anyone actually using the class, who would of course have fought two or three extra battles and instead would have them at level 30 by endgame. Still behind, since they didn't want to spend hours and hours grinding, but close enough to actually reflect being a useful party member.
I'm not sure on a fair way to judge how much 'favoritism' to grant in these situations, although we could probably devise some testable amount to grant and get a better middle-ground that would mitigate these severe divisional splits.
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The complicating factor with TO levels is that Chapter 4 has a lot of sidequests available; even excluding Palace of the Dead (which gives crap exp aside from a single-digit number of story stages), I'm pretty sure there are way more optional stages than plot ones. These are so numerous that the valid range for DL endgame levels is pretty wide, compared to something like FFT which really just has the Beowulf/Cloud sidequest (most people factor this in, I believe) and Deep Dungeon (most people don't). I noticed that Elfboy put endgame levels at 20 in the stat topic and skipped all of the optional C4 PCs besides Catiua, even the ones like Ganpp and Rudlum who don't have unique classes to complicate DL level scaling; meanwhile, checking my pre-Hanging Gardens save, all my active PCs were L24-25, even Princess Catiua; evidently my memory was wrong on how long it takes to get her caught up. I did most of the sidequests before postgame, but I skipped the PotD floors past 6, the back half of the Shrine quest, and the back half of the Azelstan quest because I messed up the requirements DESPITE following a guide for recruitment, because TO faq-bait is truly special.
I haven't really thought too hard about where I'd set DL levels previously because TOr is such a DL mess in general, but my kneejerk prior to just now was that all the C4 special classes get some sort of level penalty, but with some leniency allowed where I could justify it to make the cast more interesting since the lategame special jobs like Lord/Knight Commander/Pirate/etc. tend to have far more interesting DL skillsets than earlygame generic classes like Warrior, although some classes like Shaman are flat out unviable even with some exp charity. However, since my memory was evidently off on getting Princess caught up in the maingame level, equality for the classes you get earlier on in C4 is actually more feasible than I had thought until just now, so I'm even less certain now than ever where I'd set DL levels. Um, yay? <_<
Also re: inheriting skills from other classes, Double Attack is the only DL-relevant passive I would allow Lord to inherit because it is actually pretty unique, with 4 classes in the whole game who can actually use it. That's a way better claim to uniqueness than, say, pretty much every storebought spell in the game. It's not like buying a Ninja classmark to buy a cheap skill before switching to Lord has some sort of meaningful opportunity cost. Knight Commander has a clearly worse case since the classmarks are a pain to get. I'm open to arguments on this, but my kneejerk is that hiring a fresh unit to grab Ninja and then scavenge is trivial to accomplish unless you stubbornly cling to a 0 fatality Warren Report statistic out of pride like I personally do. Ozma has enough ranking headaches (including a massively overlevelled Law path-only boss form) that it's little more than a theoretical principle, anyhow.
Snowfire: with regards to TP generation, note that damage spikes dramatically from L20 to L25 thanks to TO's arcane mechanics (the extra weapon levels accumulated are a factor as well). My L25 Vyce with two Kidney Spikes, L5 Dagger and no other offensive skills does 74x2 damage to L25 Arycelle, which generates way more TP than anyone in Elfboy's stat topic. Not that Ranger can make much use of that TP, but I only got Lord in postgame and used whips on Ozma so he made a quick proxy for what favorable DL interps can pump out in terms of damage/TP.
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For whatever it's worth: loaded up my file, and L19 PC Ozma with a Spiked Laurel +1 is listed as dealing 45 damage to high-Def enemies (Andorras), ~55 damage to regular defense templar enemies, and ~75 damage to low-Def enemies (templar mages etc.). Rest of my team was L20. A slightly later save vs. Dorgy, Lvl. 20 Ozma dealt 48 damage, and 50-70 damage vs. the various clones (L21 PCs). Elf didn't use +1 weapons but did assume Strength skills which weren't set for her in my save, so it probably evens out. Anyway, that isn't a huge TP factory per notes about damage apparently spiking later, but I think I'm pretty fine with not including the late damage spike in the DL. It's good damage but won't be fueling Intercession spam. (Also this is where I feel bad for Denam again, since obviously I can see how Double Attack + Phalanx + damage spike rules the aftergame with Phalanx 24/7 lulz, similar to Double-Attack L25 Ozma spamming Ivory Tower. And there certainly are games where I'm willing to use technically aftergame stats & abilities - SO3 comes to mind - but we had a stat topic for those aftergame stats.)
Something I did forget was that Knight Commander has Mighty Impact, though. Not a bad way to spend TP. She also comes with L4 Swords out of the box if she wants to go the Shield / Rending Gale defensive style.
Ozma's C4 boss form is totally optional and can be World'd later a la The Rogue Diego (which is early C4 but insanely impossible at early C4 levels) if you have problems, so not terribly inclined to consider it legal compared to her required and reasonably-leveled boss forms.
For whatever it's worth, Princess was L16 for the Andorass fight (vs. 19 Ozma, L20-21 everyone else). Princess was L18 for Dorgy (vs. L20 Ozma, L21 everyone else). So... yeah, Princess would have a fairly nasty -4 to -3 level penalty, and I dragged Princess around to all the sidequests of C4 I did too. (Which was not nearly all of them per hinode's comments about there being a crapton, although some are basically guarded behind World.)
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Star Ocean 3 PCs (A bit tentative since not everything is 100% worked out)
Fayt- 4.25. Side Kick is godly. 70% damage? Good speed? Invincible frames actually giving him some evasion? Oh, perhaps Astral Armor tipping the balance against some mages too (TBD). Yeah, good Heavy, surprise of the topic...etc
Adray- 2.75. Turn 2 fatal status (although I guess against bad evaders it goes to turn 1)...but it's slow. Man, I didn't realize his tech selection was so abysmal. They really did not want him cutting into Sophia's niches endgame
Albel- 3.85. Borderline? Damage came out better than before, he's certainly great at killing MP (Aura Wall=enemy has no MP), and I have a fair amount of respect for Vampiric Flash. I guess he's Heavy if you see him beating Sara, Middle if not (Heavy=I see Vampiric Flash as able to run forever. In game with DL weapons, he only stops because he's MP killed an enemy. Not allowing MP killing but not allowing him to keep going DL wise feels like a double penalty)
Cliff- 3.5. Good durability, tad above average speed (man, his intro attacks are such trash on speed), good MP back up (it's slow, but retains most of it's damage). Good middle, but not that close to Heavy at all.
Maria- 3.9. The DL's top paralysis inflicter? Seriously, Paralyzer is a sick weapon. 40% Paralysis...on each hit. On a person who gets 30 hits a combo. And while paralysis doesn't stack, since she knows when it's wearing off, she just starts a combo at an opportune time and the enemy will be paralyzed again most likely. If you block Paralysis, she still scrapes 2HKO damage normally, halves elements, and has Power Up for some frail healers.
Mirage- 3.35. Compare to Cliff...20% less durability, 15-20% less damage, but faster and better equip. Worse, but still great MP damage helps.
Nel- 4. Nel took a bit of a hit, because her damage went down (and also higher enemy SA makes Ice Daggers turn 2). What keeps her in Heavy? That wicked MP damage. Near OHKO level, pairs very well with Healing. Still a Heavy, but closer to the H/M border than H/G
Peppita- 3.5. Weird. Either turn 1 Freeze (scraping it out barely) or counter->smash strategy (which unleashes 2HKO HP and OHKO MP damage).
Roger- 3.15. Borderline 2HKO and solid HP, with some potential for mage spoiling. Slow though. Scrapes out Middle I think, but not an overly impressive one.
Sophia- 3.45. Weirdo now. Deep Freeze is fast to come up and gives her effective turn 1 fatal status. Although I didn't note in the topic yet, she can also unleash about 70% PC HP in Explosion (the tie up is insane. 7 seconds from when Sophia can act again until when the enemy can move. That's...extremely significant). She has legal MP boosting...but not the CP to use it though. That would have given her OHKO level. As is, she can grab some OHKOs against a few rare enemies to bolster her strategy.
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The problem with Albel vs. Sara is that he runs her out of MP with Vampiric Flash. And, as you noted, it actually -is- resource-intensive. At some point, he just runs out of juice to heal himself, and considering his offense's kinda problematic against her (physical and not great anyway, he has a sub-par 3HKO against average, and that's not considering when he has to Vampiric Flash, at which point his damage just becomes outrageously bad), I kinda doubt he can last -that- long. Depends on how deep you see Sara's MP reserves.
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You misunderstand Snow. Dhyer is saying either Sara dies from an MP kill, or. She is considered to have infinite MP to drain.
If you hold that she runs out of MP to drain AND doesn't die upon further MP damage, then Dhyer says he should be considered atbthe low end of the fivision split. Dhyer feels this is double penalizing Albel.
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But she -can't- have infinite MP to drain when she has MP -and- a limited pool of it at that. And where does that leave the rest of the SO3 cast, then? That'd just mean their MP damage would be entirely useless, which is both untrue to in-game and to a DL setting (since assuming DL enemies have infinite MP to drain from precludes a FFX Osmose situation, which certainly doesn't hold true to SO3). I don't think I'm getting what's the idea, then.
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They are trying to make a just and fair system where people are not penalized for where they come from and how they were raised.
They are fools.
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Pyro has it right. In game SO 3, Albel using Vampiric Flash (especially against a enemy with low damage and low speed) will never worry about running out of the ability to VF. Either he kills via HP or he kills via MP. I use Sara especially because it not only came up, but placed into SO 3 which about her equivalent stats, she would be...horrible. Yes, Sara doesn't have unlimited MP to drain...but by the same token, Albel can't ever run an enemy out of MP in game and not win.
I've already made one major alteration to the SO 3 (MP damage can not kill), so already going 100% by the book is out of the window. I'd rather keep closer to how the move played in game than change it so that it effectively had a flaw that it didn't before. This doesn't change anything else (the other PCs can kill MP when the enemies have and use it).
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Belated comment on the TO stuff before: Lord/etc. are mostly "iconic" to the people who played the original, where the level issue is non-existent and Lord is a clear upgrade for Denam.
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Jeanne D'Arc
Everyone gets at least +100 HP. I'm torn between 100/150, but 100 is a sane baseline minimum for far and away the best skill in game (that also happens to be easily accessible). Let's say +10 in enemy evade too.
Jeanne: 2.9. Goal take 2-3 turns (hopefully), get Visting Goddess and smite a bit. Not a great fan of healers. Very, very borderline, but probably on the Light side. Blood Sword helps give an extra durability bite. Counter is pretty nice though (hey, if she's being 2HKOed, 51% chance with melee enemies that one of the attacks will not hit is an extra big boon when your game is "last for 3 turns). Almost tempted to think that she could be a low Middle. Would need to test her spurs a little.
Roger: 3.3. Needs to lose a few levels, but hey, still above average HP, solid damage, and gets great transformations.
Cuisses: 2.75. Ew, the HP. Jeanne's with a worse durability switch (Light mages who are passable are less anemic on damage then fighters, and many will 2HKO both Cuisses and Jeanne. Their synergy works better with physicals)
Jean: 2.5.
Bertrand: 3.2. That Pdur+decent draining damage. Cool Middle type.
Marcel: 2.8. Yeah, archers don't have a great DL translation, but he's still solid.
Colet: 3.1. Great evade. Can beat some great physical fighters and lose to some horrible mages.
Gilles: 3.05. Leg Strike is normally a lolzy move. Leg Strike is far less lolzy when paired with the ability to transform. Could be a high Light.
Rufus: 4.0. Wood Chop just isn't right (boosting damage and accuracy for that low cost? No other weapon has a comparable tech). Losing a bit of relative HP doesn't help, but he's still a PDur tank with a good 2HKO. Could be a little worse due to no status protection (everyone else is hovering much lower and face less).
La Hire: 3.4. Plot wise La Hire and Rufus should be completely switched. This actually makes no sense as to why La Hire's stats are so much shittier. But Axes are the best weapon type.
Bartolomeo: 3.55. La Hire +
Rose: 2.7. Spoiler alert. It's Colet, with worse everything except evasion.
Richard: 2.9. I would probably be okay with upgrading with Heal to Heal 2. Mages run screaming generally. Fighters try to kill through admittedly not great healing, but if they fail and he transforms, he'll generally take it.
Beatrix: 2.5. Spoiler alert mark 2. Can beat some good mages, but it's not happening against Fighters.
Claire: 2.5. See Beatrix remixed a little.
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Child of Light (The Light part is very, very apt as we shall see)
Aurora (w/ Iggy): At base, Aurora has 54% damage that is laggy. Adding in Iggy gives her two good options. The first is that she can drag down enemy speed dramatically for 1-3 turns (depending on how you allow flowers). Her stats still suck, but now the average enemy will be well outpaced by her speed (at least on turn 2)
The second option is to pair with her physical option and use Iggy to try and get more counters with regen. This is generally not worth it, but could have use. 3.25.
If you don't allow Iggy, then she's more in the 2.75 range, and she just hopes to avoid 2HKOing (Note that for me personally, Iggy also has the advantage of balancing out times she is screwed by Holy defense, since in Child of Light enemies only have Holy weaknesses (and Holy is unique in that)
Rubella- 2.85. Rubella is the game's healer, and in a duel, a worse version of Jessica. She sports better speed (130% on attacking), but the healing is much more limited (5 shots), the regen effect worse (Rubella's is a 30% chance to kick in below 30% HP. Paired intelligently with the healing his might buy her another shot), and her damage is a little worse (6HKO border). But...she's still decently durable, has awesome speed, and isn't too bad on any front. A solid High Light, but not really a Middle in any way. Someone who could have been a multi-time Light champ back in the day.
Finn- 3.1. I think low Middle works. The speed is bad, but could be a lot of worse, and he's at the point where he'll start grabbing an occasional OHKO to bad Mdef people. Thunder res alone doesn't really slow him either as he can go for a solid Fire or Water backup.
Robert- 2.85. Robert is within the realm of averagish at everything (damage on the low end and speed on the high), but his DL tricks do not transfer from in game. Hinder is awesome, but means giving up the first hit (still not a bad option). But he's just not dominant enough in anything to get any higher.
Tristis- 2.6. Tristis is just speed. Good base speed, and then Haste to improve that. He also has like half of Robert's damage. A Light and not particularly good there (Although not a complete loser)
Oengus- 3.45. Finally, a valid Middle! Oengus has nice PDur, decent damage (45% range), 15% passive ID on every attack (take that healers!), and while you would be mocked badly for taking Quake in game, it offers right at OHKO damage while a nasty, nasty charge time (take that healers! mark 2). Cool and solid. Wishes that Taunt worked the way the in game description works (it said 50 HP regen a second, when it's really a turn).
Gen- 2.9. Gen has two valid setups. Costly and slow but decently damaging Magic or Infinite, quicker, but much less damaging physical. She's probably best combining the two as one inflicts Slow and one inflicts Knockback...but....all her stats are bad. My gut is high Light, but she's another person who could use some seasoning in a few fights to see how her package plays out.
Norah- 3.2. Baby Tidus. Barely has 4HKO damage, but she can open with Slow and then Haste, and then Paralyze will probably kick in once. Depsite the damage, I think she can play decently in Middle. Interesting duelling package.
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Since Dhyer pulled up numbers, I'll give a go to Child of Light rankings myself. I'll have to point out his data ended up stunningly close to my initial kneejerks as well.
Aurora: Well, for starters, I don't allow her Igniculus, which honestly feels like a party resource rather than something unique to her (she doesn't even have to be in the active party for you to use it!). So uh you have a low, elementally reliant 2HKO running off somewhat sketchy resources, bad speed and crap durability across the board. Elevate Damage doesn't really help all that much, since it mostly turns some 3HKOs into 2HKOs and little else, and hell, Aurora often won't live to see a third turn in a duel (she usually doesn't even get to see a -second- against average magical damage and speed). So uh yeah, Rule of Labyrinthia applies here, though not as strongly. Light, though probably pretty good there.
Rubella: Yeah, it's been mostly said. Fast healer with no real durability failure, but bad damage (6HKO!) and resources. Counter-Heal just isn't very good without venturing deep into the tree, which would either plummet her already terrible offense into Cristo territory or mangle her healing, and she can ill afford any of that. Status immunity buff would be nice if it wasn't kinda slow, too. High Light. And I should've voted Virion against her in Proving Grounds - for all that she likely earned her victory against Luke.
Finn: Finn's pretty much dollar store Mazus in a nutshell. 75% PC HP a pop off his best damage is pretty danged good (that actually can snag a few OHKOs in the lower divisions), but then you realize it's Thunder-elemental. Running off 0.77 pdur and below average speed. And his low 2HKO damage backup is -fire-. At least he's kinda magically durable, so he isn't badly off against a Middle-calibur mage slugger as long as both Thunder and Fire don't get walled. The Monsoon setup is kinda interesting for running a less resisted element, but it costs both on go-to offense and backups, which doesn't feel worth it. Low Middle.
Robert: Wow, way to not really capitalize on any of your tricks DL-wise, mousey. Borderline 4HKO damage off the worst damage type (physical evadable), a Slow trick that doesn't really last long enough to make waves, awful healing, averagish durability, -some- evade, decent speed when he's not using slow... it's kind of a mess here. Hinder could be awesome if it wasn't a slow attack, but then it also rams into his terrible MP pool - as is, it may snag him some wins against Light healers, since he's generally 4HKOing either way. Regardless, Light. Don't think he's a BAD one, but not really champ-potential like Rubella.
Tristis: Haste makes for a decent speed game, especially off his defensive stat spread, but Rubellatastic offense kinda puts it all to waste. Ultimate Armor's not nearly as good as it needs to be to not be a waste of a turn, and, without any sort of healing, he often can't really afford that anyway. So it goes. Light.
Óengus: Now this is more like it. Great physical durability (and frankly not bad at mdur either!), decent damage, a way to buff his pdur even -further- and a little surprise for healers in Kiss of Death. The speed's sketchy, but honestly not -that- bad, and Quake, while frankly mockable in-game, hands him another anti-healer tool in the lower echelons of the DL if he ventures that way. The cast star, which says a lot more about Child of Light duellers than Óengus himself. Middle.
Genovefa: Uh, wow, this is tricky. She's all about juggling enemy speed, but has nowhere near the stats needed for this to work properly. She can slow her opposition down with her (sluggish) magical slugging, delay them with her (terrible) physical, speed herself up... but Jesus, that's Tim-level durability to keep such a finicky game afloat. The paralysis is quite abusive on-paper (perfect accuracy! Hits -every enemy in the game!-), but she gets very little mileage out of it, since it's so short-lasting and expensive. Really needs a Proving Grounds run to ascertain her precise worth, but I kneejerk Light, yet again. Not even sure she's champ-level, given her terrible stat spread.
Norah: Hey, look, it's Tidus' speed game at less than half its effectiveness. It's kinda cool anyway: Lull => Quicken => Petrify all day long. If she doesn't die in-between the setup turns, she'll either land a paralysis or just outslug her opposition as long as they're not overwhelming with offense/statusing her out. The holes in that strategy stemming from the setup turns do cost her a lot of wins, but she pretty much feasts on the slow and undamaging with the eventual turnsplit madness, and some healers also fear the ever increasing pressure game. Middle, sure.
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FE 13
Robin- 3.35. 3HKOish Magic and Physicals. Slightly below average durability. Middle works.
Chrom- 3.85. Lowish Heavy? Decent enough 2HKO, Aether to keep him around potentially.
Lissa- 2.25. Punylicious. Not even working as a good Mdef spoiler, but at least counters let her take on the sad Light physicallers.
Frederick- 2. Hideous prorated HP, nothing else is good either.
Sully- 3.3 Decent durability, averagish damage. Deals decently with swords. Middle.
Virion- 2.9. Spoils other bow users. Otherwise average to sub average. Not a bad Light, but a Light.
Stahl- 3.1. Borderline? Tank Physicals, Doesn't Like Magic, Passable damage.
Vaike- 3.35. One of the ones where picking the default class was hard. Warrior deals with melee physicals very well, but Sol makes Hero much better against magic. Middle of some sort, depends on how freely you allow switching.
Miriel- 3.15? Maybe. Scraps a 2HKO, but reams physical fighters with counters. Could be Light, but feels like she deals with even some Middles decently.
Sumia- 3.55. Oddly similar to Miriel (which I probably only note ranking one after the other). Low 2HKO, trades some counters for more durability. Evade certainly makes her substantially better. Not sure if she has the overall punch to get cleanly out of Middle. Even this score could be overrating here. She wanted to exist in a FE game with worse enemies to give her the evasion.
Kellam- 3.25. Good against fighters, hates mages.
Donnel- 2. Could be worse statistically, but doesn't get enough to get out of the fail zone.
Lon'Qu- 4. Solid 2HKO, turn 2 evasion.
Ricken- 2.9. Surprisingly durable for a Sage. Damage is okay. Feels like Miriel's build is better certainly DLwise.
Maribelle- 2.3. Could be worse.
Panne- 3.8. Borderline. Damage is averagish, evasion is very good
Gaius- 3.7. Another person who was hard to choose for. Does he pick the clean 2HKO without the evasion, and damage that is about 33% less, but with more evade. I picked straightforward.
Cordelia- Hmm. 3.6ish? Gaius with less evasion (notable against status)
Gregor- 3.25. Feels like a Middle.
Nowi- 3.3. Great durability, not bad against healers and status. Middle works.
Libra- 2.4. Sucks. May spoil some mages.
Tharja- 3.65. Interesting overall package. Surprisingly durable, Nosferatu, limit esque move. Tomebreaker is awesome against enemy mages, but not great against status.
Anna- 3.3. Hates the more typical FE view. As is, damage is not great, but gets good counters and sports some nice evasion.
Olivia- 2.
Chereche- 3.5. Weird case where the low AS class is clearly the best thanks to Quick Burn (and Swordbreaker!). Passable damage and durability Everything generally feels a bit above average overall.
Henry- 3.2. Quirky, but that AS holds him back. Tomebreaker should be enough to secure Middle though.
Lucina- 4.4. Massive damage, but wishes the the overall evade was better. Feels like not enough for Godlike.
Say'Ri- 4. Damage, decent evade, a range 2 if she wants it.
Tiki- 3.9. Dragon with a double rate and some evade too to stave off turn 1 status? Heavy should work.
Basilio- 3.4 Middle or something whatever.
Flavia- 3.8. Low 2HKO, some evade, and Sol. Maybe a High Middle?
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Ryu 3- 5. Duh. It's Ryu 3. That said, when everything came together, he's not quite as much an unkillable death machine as I thought. I only hold Aura against him, but it means that he does lose some damage to go to Kaiser form. If he goes to Kaiser, he can do about 4.5 PC HP damage in evil ITD/ITE damage (maybe 5.6 with a double). So a lot of damage, but ironically can't quite deal with Myria 1. So most people do need to disable him in a turn, but HP tanks might be able to outlive Kaiser. Ryu can drop some defense to get a little faster (and unlike Ryu 2, Ryu 3 generally felt like he was on the right side of the speed curve).
Rei- 3.9. So getting the bad part of the way; No turn 1 Silence, no turn 2 Death. He's on the wrong side of the durability curve; but the speed is fantastic and once transformed he over 90% PC HP damage. The key is...can he take the hit first? He does generally need to 3-2 because he can't generally take 2 hits in Heavy. Unfortunately, even at 25% SD (extra for EXAs), he's about 141% Speed. He can use Speed first and then he'll 3-2, he's still have to take 2 hits. So...too much for Middle, but he needs to face a specific foe type to make headway. He at least puts good use to those nice equips. Really wanted a little bit more damage to hit the OHKO, more durability, a little more speed or a better supporting package. Could be underrating a little.
Nina- Weirdo. Let's start with the straightforward. Nina's relative damage has improved (we used to think of it as a low 4HKO, now it's a passable 3HKO). That alone is good boost (in Light). She has decent speed and with item casting, you can use Speed and gets decent EXAs (might see use against a healer). Blunt...could make her actually potent in Light. Certainly, Blunt should kill some 2HKOs...and then if you allow Heal, she can actually control some matches. Uh...man. I'm going to say 2.75. Clearly a Light, but...good? Goodish? Not a complete failure? Actually kind of cool? As weird as all these things are to say, they don't feel wrong. If you don't allow item casts, she does get notably worse as Speed and Heal synergize quite well.
Momo- 3.75. Don't know. Starting Pdur isn't so hot (70% extra), the damage is pretty anemic (5HKOs on average thanks to acccuracy) and the magic damage is just sad (that was a big loss for her). No full ID immunity for her either (for me). The status is turn 2. But the buffing is still pretty awesome. Needs lots of testing.
Peco- 2.7?. Well, lots of bad minor strategies might add up to something...in Light. His damage sucks, but his ITE/ITD isn't bad at all. His HP is excellent, and he has regen to support it. He deals passably well with SR fighters due to counters (especially some FE types with horrible status resistance). It's still...not a great package. The damage is just lacking. Probably needs testing now that we have different notes.
Garr- 2.25. Oh, what a sad creature. Garr has...some Pdur....and can laugh at Fire damage. He also some a hideous weapon selection. Bare 4HKO off bad speed or better 4HKO off even worse that also eats his HP. Not a decent trick to is name. Gambit...could almost be cool against some healers, but at least 60% damage with his best attack weapon, it's pretty sad. And Guardians didn't realize that dragons were just letting them win? Trash.
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And the two main DL bosses
Teepo- 4.55. 3 or so PC HP, solid 2HKO (and a good chunk is ITD). A little slow. Those who don't immune Confuse don't tend to like him. Gut is still scrapes Godlike by a hair, but could be wrong.
Myria- 4.95. Well, about 6 PC HP. Near OHKO magic damage the last 3 PC HP. However, Death is only the least 1.5 PC HP (and may not be turn 1; granted, so much status tends to mean that most non immune PC would go out earlier), and she isn't a fan of massive Mdef. Oh, she's also technically slow, which hurts a lot.
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Tir- 4.75. With defense now in the equation, Tir has an even more solid OHKO. So now he's an even better PC killer (as long as you don't block both his methods of murder), but also a little bit better against the bosses. He wishes evade panned out more though.
Alen- Solid durability and great damage (86%). Wishes he had a bit more speed though. Not quite damaging enough, speedy enough or versatile enough to feel like he deserves Heavy. He feels...really close if you don't do any damage average boosting. 3.55
-->Deserved 0-2 in the DL, but never really got a solid chance to perform well given the second draw.
Barbarossa- 4. Heads all have about 1.33 PC HP, with barely 2HKO damage (albeit both ITE physical and magical). Heavy works, but good MT rips through him.
-->He should have beaten Lazlo. If Lazlo could heal himself, he might take it...but he doesn't have enough MT damage to win before dying. L1 Gades is a terror
Cleo- Quick, very solid 2HKO (69%), decent durability stats (above in average, albeit just slightly in some categories). Won't grab the OHKOs that Alen might, but might be better overall when they don't? Hard to say. 3.45.
-->Cleo had hideous luck in Middle, and shouldn't have beat Edge in the first place. Mostly seems fair otherwise, but never got a chance to shine in Middle.
Clive- 31% Damage, fast, averagish durability. Good in Light. 2.85.
**BOOT BAIT. For all that he's competent (for an S1 fighter), I don't think he's relevant in S1 or S2.
Crowley- 2HKOs that heals himself is awesome. About 60% PDur is a flaw, and he withers against Wind immunity. 3.4
Eileen- Good speed, almost 70% damage and a nasty defensive spell. Don't getting status hurts though. Still works in Heavy since her other big flaw (poor Pdur) is often covered. 3.95
-->Eileen obviously has a weird history. Vivi should have beaten her given how many turns he can get and that he only needs a few for status to hit (And he can set up healing that actually has a point here?).Sania is a weird case where it depends on how you respect Sania's status. Lucca's Taban Helm should give her the win (since I'm assuming Sleep stops CT from accumulating) since she can use Sleep to run Copper Flesh duration out. In retrospect, Alfina robbed her horribly.
Ein Gide- 2HKOs (barely), PCish durability, average speed, and status durability. Unimpressive Middle type. 3.4.
Flik- Good overall durability, good speed, 94% Damage. Potent enough to get to Heavy, although he's another where status holds him back a bit. 3.9
Fukien- Slight quirky type that is a fun Light. Very low 2HKO with magic, a little slow (but could be worse) and some healing that could be of use every now an again. 2.75
-->I know that he wasn't ranked, but he stood out at least a little. Sure, he's basically only good for a dungeon, but he at least stands out against Neclord. Not suggesting that I would have ranked him though.
Futch- Not like anyone votes on this form, but hey, at least it's not horrible like Tengaar. Solid defense, extremely fast, 26% damage. 2.75
Gremio- Slow and 22% damage. At least his durability is okayish...2.45
Grenseal- Flik trading some speed and a hint of durability for the ability to pump out more damage (which generally isn't needed, so losing trade). But still feels like a Heavy. 3.8
-->Well, no equip changing for Delita means that Grenseal should have gotten past round 1 once.
Hellion- 70% damage, Copper Flesh. That PDur is gnarly (57%), but she can at least generally take hits in Middle. Struggles against healers and can't even count on a passable physical like Eileen. 3.2
-->Hellion obviously should have beaten Chisato in retrospect (although Hellion isn't far from being OHKOed there)
Hix- 26% damage, a little fast. 2.6
Humphrey- Slow with good Pdur . 26% damage (seemingly a common number!) 2.55
Kasim- 29% Damage, slow (but not Humphrey level at least). 2.6
-->And yet still maybe beats Kain?
Kasumi- 37% Damage, extremely fast (Granted, SDs make that 135%, but that's 4-3ing average at least).Really wants me to see speed as higher since that's what really is her niche. ITE is cool. 3.25
-->Thank god she beat Zelos. That would be a travesty in retrospect otherwise.
Kirkus- 31% Damage, Good speed. 2.85
-->Kahn is a rough DL draw and Chisato is probably just too much for Light as well.
Krin- 20.4% Damage, Blazing Speed, painful durability. That defense stings. Not good. 2.5
**I wouldn't have minded booting him considering how he turned out.
Kuromimi- 25.3% damage, a little fast. 2.7
-->Snicker at the fact that he deserved to lose to Nina 3.
Kwanda- Almost halves physicals, making him a fantastic tank. Otherwise slow and S1 fighter damage. 2.95. Feels a hair shy of borderline
Lepant- 2.75 or whatever.
Luc- Never wants this form. Low 2HKO and fast, but OHKOed by a 37% physical. A fascinating Light. 2.75
Milia- 2.6
**Despite being forced, I wouldn't have minded booting her. She's not really bringing anything that another half dozen people in the game are already bringing
Milich- 2.65
Odessa- Not in the topic, no ranking given.
**BOOOOOOOOOOOT BAIT SO BAD. Oh god, in the party for 1 dungeon at like level 10? She's plot relevant, but I can't countenance that availability that early.
Pahn- Managing to be one of the more interesting fighters. Slow, but his base physicals is 36% and he has an ITE finisher. 2.85
Pesmerga- Off-balance. Great ATK, but accuracy pushes him a 5HKO. Slow, but good def. 2.6?
**Not a strong rank. No plot relevance, late both games, S1 form sucks, S2 form is nothing special.
Ronnie Bell- 67% damage, a little slow. 3.45
Sheena- 3.8? Maybe. A little faster than Grenseal with less durability. Dunno
-->God, Sheena is weird. S1 or S2? S1 is better I think, but completely irrelevant in game. S2 is super relevant, but worse in the DL...but better in game. Which means that I'm okay with allowing his best form, which is S1. He certainly should now beat Yuffie, but would now lose to Berserk (although Berserk didn't have his good form then, so not an actual rob). Should beat Alice though with a heal lock.
Sonya- 29% Damage (so could be worse for an S1 fighter), very fast (surprisingly so), good durability. Her strat in Middle does lead to being foiled by some low hit rate status (more than the other S1 Middles). 3.3
Sylvina- 2.55
**DEFINITE BOOT BAIT. Never forced to use her, if you do, she'll perform nothing like she does in the DL anyways.
Tai Ho- 33.7% Damage, so technically 3HKOs average. Little fast. 2.85
Valeria- 3.4. Ronnie remixed
-->Should have beaten Precis (granted, right after Precis beat CECILIA). Keneth just 2HKOs her first though.
Viktor- Plus side: above average speed. Minus side: Like Pesmerga, that accuracy sinks his good damage. 2.5 or something
-->Blah, deserved to lose to fucking Pikachu (At least S1). S1 might deserve to lose to Freed as well (maybe?). Viktor oddly enough is like the only pure fighter type who gets enough Magic to not be a completely futile mage.
Yam Koo- 2.85 or whatever
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Tentative Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest ranks:
Corrin: After Draconic Hex, she doubles average speed (though it's not super-safe). Hits both defences, reasonably durable. Chances are you'll only have one turn with which to take her out, unless you're quite durable or have a faster, uncounterable 2HKO. Heavy
Felicia: Tough/dodgy against magic, but dies fast to physicals. Has a 4HKO, but at least it's of the 1-2 variety. We've seen this build before, adding Tomebreaker to it doesn't change it too much. Light/Middle.
Jakob: Knives are cool, he'll double the slow after hitting them with a Silver Dagger. Unfortunately, if he doesn't, his offence will be awful, and while it's 1-2, that just means he debuffs himself faster. Or makes his offence even worse. Light most likely, though Tomebreaker positions him well to defeat mages.
Elise: It's a similar stat build to Felicia, without Tomebreaker, but with one key difference: she doubles average! And hits a hell of a lot harder, a high 2HKO. Accuracy could be a bit better, but you still don't last long against her. The PDur is terrible though. Middle.
Silas: Nice physical durability, but the faster can double him. Damage is decent. Javelins/Hand Axes get him doubled for sure, so he really is up shit creek against mages. Light/Middle, but he does spoil melee fighters really well...
Arthur: Justice always wins! Great damage. He can often 2HKO with a Hand Axe followed by a Silver Axe, even, though Hand Axes leave him open to being doubled. He's pretty physically durable too. Middle
Effie: Wary Fighter means she won't be doubled, which is pretty great for her. Physically tanky, 2HKO damage, Javelins are a good option too. Middle, but a better one than Arthur... she does need her personal skill to match his damage, but she gets that against most people.
Mozu: Holy stat growths! Actually she doesn't have the best stat total anyway... but it's good enough. She just manages to double average, and Seal Strength means she'll be pretty physically durable after her opening hit. She can also set Life or Death and be very fragile, but have a shot at one-rounding average... only works on the slow though. Middle/Heavy.
Odin: His stats are all kinda vaguely below average (except Skl/Luck), which means he's much more physically durable than most mages, but the damage is a problem. Still, Nosferatu can push his durability further, or he can push for crits/vegeance with a forge, so he should make Middle.
Niles: Fast! Dodgy (if he isn't countering)! Magically durable! But... not very damaging. Has options for his counters, physical or magic, and doubling does make his damage less bad for sure, but it isn't 4HKOing average. If only he didn't have to choose between evasion and counters, or he had more than 0.67 pdur, I think he'd have a case for Heavy, but as is, Middle again!
Azura: Well she's almost OHKOed by average physicals, and isn't that much better against magic. She does double average but the lance rank stops her damage from doing much good. Light.
Nyx: Um well she's lucky that she has a skill to lower enemy evade, because otherwise her accuracy would fail. As is, she's another mage made of paper, but hey, Nosferatu heals almost half of her bad HP. She doubles the slow, and can hit them really hard as such! And Countercurse is nice against mages. But... I dunno, that pdur, and the accuracy can mess her up too. Light/Middle.
Camilla: Hits like a truck, and just misses doubling average by a hair. If you're slow, you're probably dead. If you're fast, you still have to deal with Hand Axe counter + Silver Axe 2HKOing average. Savage Blow makes for some nasty heal-locks, and her physical duraiblity's pretty good, plus Swordbreaker. Heavy.
Beruka: Hopes to fight someone slow so she isn't doubled. Trample and Savage Blow give her some pretty solid damage, so she can often 2HKO in practice, but against fast opponents she'll have a lot of trouble living that long. Fitting for an assassin, even if the class isn't. Light/Middle?
Selena: Speedy, enough to double average anyway. Decently physically durable. Can toss Hand Axes safely but not very effectively, just useful as an opening shot. Strength lets her down, though, but she still two-rounds average even if she can't counter. Middle.
Kaze: Doubles everything! Yes, I mean everything. Which means he two-rounds average at range 1-2 and has some modest evade, poison helps his offence further. Mediocre pdur, great mdur... Middle/Heavy area.
Laslow: Real bland, fairly average at everything in the end. He has a Hand Axe option but he'll get doubled with it a lot, so it's not a good one. As such ends up a largely pure melee type, which probably means Light/Middle. Healing procs could help but I don't respect them that much.
Peri: She 2HKOs average and may occasionally snag some doubles, or tilt fights with javelin counters. Not bad. Middle.
Benny: He's a total beast against physicals. Wary Fighter wards off doubles, like with Effie, so he's a pain in the ass to take down, even though his damage is only a meh 3HKO. Magic durability is actually respectable, so he can win some slugfests with that, but it's obviously still a big weakness. High Middle.
Charlotte: Doubles average. Game-best damage. Accuracy could be a bit better, but criticals make up for it. Give her a turn and she pumps out 140% OHKO damage (156% if you're female). Averagish durability and enemies fast enough to stop her from doubling are her weaknesses, but even then there are counters including Hand Axe ones. High Heavy. Probably Conquest's best dueller.
Leo: One of the best FE mage duellers ever. Leo's exceptionally tough against magic, especially after Seal Magic, counters everything, doesn't explode to physicals, and has the option of Nosferatu. Oh, and he can 2HKO while using it, because his magic rules. Unless he's doubled, that'll be hard to overcome. Heavy.
Keaton: He's weird, but certainly good. He has a high 3HKO which is usually a 2HKO thanks to Grisly Wound, which punishes opponents both when they attack (unless MT) and when he attacks them. He also regens 40% of his HP every other turn, and is very physically tanky. His weakness is the speedy double him, but he can switch weapons to avoid that, which makes his durability much more fair (physical still excellent). He feels like he won't lose much except to speedy mages and status, though that's certainly enough to keep him fair in Heavy.
Gunter: Frederick 2.0 pretty much. 4HKO damage (crappy ranged backup), doubled by everything, PDur is okay but MDur means any mage above Puny beats him pretty much. Light, probably worse than Azura.
Xander: Nice physical durability, ranged 1-2 counters, and he comes so close to a 2HKO. But... man, that magical durability. He's not too far from being one-rounded by mages (unless they're slow). Some sort of Middle, which is a shame because he's such a good PC.
Shura: Nifty. He doubles the slow, and can double quite a few more after he activates Highwayman, and has evade. The damage is a bit problematic though, especially if he doesn't double. Overall a worse Middle than Niles, but can still hang there due to the turn 2 evasion.
Flora: Well. If someone goes first and hits her with physicals she's probably dead. Otherwise she can try to debuff their speed and avoid being doubled, but honestly her damage is also bad, so she's not winning physical slugfests much of ever. Against mages, Tomebreaker sets her up better for sure. But, even Light mages are a problem for her with her damage, which means she's a bad Light herself.
Izana: And for our final dueller, a vanilla mage. Izana's speed is a bit problematic so fast fighters will wreck him, but he's got good magic durability, decent damage (almost a 2HKO), and wins plenty of slugfests when not doubled. Probably a Middle.
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Birthright!Corrin: Compared to his other self, Corrin is much more straightforward. He's more physically-oriented: his damage is a solid 2HKO, and has Kodachi as a ranged backup (though has to watch out for doubles with it), and with better physical but worse magical durability. No Draconic Hex means this is probably overall worse, but still some shade of Heavy.
Felicia: She can use Silver Shurikens to try to double but given they do no damage this may not be a good idea. So Flame Shuriken all day long? She has an effective 3HKO with it and it counters everything, so there are worse ideas. Ultimately similar enough to her Strategist form, but a bit more physically durable (still frail) and damaging, so it might swing Low Middle.
Jakob: Most PCs who are identical in the routes slightly prefer Conquest forms due to the speed average. Jakob is one such. It doesn't affect him much though, just a little harder to double post-silver debuff. Damage still bad. Light.
Kaze: Okay Kaze is actually an exception, he prefers Birthright because he still doubles everyone and his evade, durability, and damage are all slightly better on this route. He might actually make it to Low Heavy here despite the damage and PDur being problems.
Rinkah: She's physically tanky but magically frail. Bad damage (though less bad once she's beaten up). A way worse General? At least she has Counter which is still nice for spoiling melee types, and she can kinda do some magic damage if she needs to with Seal Resistance. It's a weird package. Thinking Light/Middle but this is one I'd really want to see tested.
Azura: Still bad. Light.
Sakura: Kinda fragile (doesn't even have res) but not overly, and has a 2HKO with magic. The slight stat shuffling may help? But yeah overall if you fail to OHKO her with ST you're in trouble, so Middle.
Hana: Oh look, +8 AS and 2HKO damage, that's gonna melt some faces. The woeful physical durability is a big problem. She has evade which can help ward off 2HKOs but OHKOs, ugh. Still probably can swing Heavy?
Subaki: Bad damage, doubled by average. His durability aside from the doubling thing is pretty good but yeah there's no recovering from how bad that first sentence is. Light.
Orochi: She hits... super-hard, one of the most damaging FE characters (70% or so on a single swing), and does it with counters. That said she's physically frail and doubled by everyone. Still, if she goes first, she can ward off double+2HKO with a counter which hopefully kills, so she probably actually makes High Light.
Saizo: He may double some people after debuffing them with Silver, but not average. Otherwise, offence is decent, durability is acceptable, has some evade. The worst ninja in the DL but still a good Middle.
Silas: Birthright's resident physical tank. Don't hit him with magic, though, he's almost 2HKOed by average and is doubled. Good damage. I feel like he actually prefers Birthright, since he's much better at physical slugfests and not appreciably worse against magic. Might now actually swing low Middle.
Mozu: Doesn't double average in this form nor is she even that close. She can try to do some things with Life or Death or physical tanking (not both) I guess, but she's just not very impressive considering all the trouble you need to go through with her. Middle of some sort.
Hinoka: Her damage isn't wonderful, but she doubles most everything on her own turn (and still doubles average on counters). Against mages her durability is sick, while against fighters she's usually countering and wrecking you. Plus some pretty good evasion, it's a nice package overall. Heavy.
Azama: He's a tough cookie. Over 1.7 physical durability, melee counters, and 30% regen makes him tough to take down with physicals. Magic would seem like the way to go... but watch out for Countercurse, he can easily win slugfests on that side too. High Middle, I could be underrating him some?
Setsuna: Yeah Hinoka and both her retainers are all good. Setsuna has loads of speed, loads of accuacy, and just misses a 2HKO to average, so she pumps out damage really fast. She's a bit fragile though. Hana without melee counters and a bit less damage, but hey accuracy is cool right? Middle/Heavy.
Hayato: Kinda like Sakura, acceptable speed and belo average durability and a low 2HKO with magic. Middle.
Oboro: Seal Speed is cool, but against average speed duellers it changes nothing. Still it both wards off doubles from the fast and lets her double the slow. Otherwise she's a fairly vanilla dueller but with good physical damage and durability, and Seal Defence makes her damage better long-term. Middle.
Hinata: I have no idea what's up with him. Has to watch out for doubles from the fast (and certainly can't afford to use Kodachi often), 3HKO damage and melee counters and... some kinda okay physical durability and evade? It's kinda functional but not very good. Light/Middle.
Takumi: Hits pretty hard and extremely accurately, but speed's problematic (can certainly be doubled sometimes), as is magical durability. Does have crits to put away healers in long fights, at least. Middle.
Kagero: Just misses doubling average... which means that after a silver shuriken hit, she does it cleanly, and she has the best damage of the ninjas. She actually starts ORKOing average after her first combat. Could stand to be more physically durable though. Middle/Heavy.
Reina: The damage-dealer of the falconknights, her damage is actually average, and of course she doubles most things on her own turn. Of the three she feels most like the traditional DL falconknight, although has more accuracy problems than they usually do. Middle/Heavy.
Kaden: Okay, his damage is bad, but he doubles a lot with it so it's not that bad, and he regens 40% of his health every two turns while having game-best evade (59%), and Grisly Wound helps eat away at opponents in the meantime. Meanwhile you don't want to fight him with magic, or melee physicals really, or most things that aren't ITE. Heavy.
Ryoma: Well he ended up slower than I expected, but he still has a borderline 2HKO, loads of evasion, and 1-2 range. If he doubles you, expect to die, but that happens almost never in Heavy. Feels like another Middle/Heavy, but he feels more likely to fall on the right side of the border than most.
Scarlet: Hits hard (Savage Blow makes it even harder), but less durable than might be expected. Staying Wyvern Lord might have helped here, but she would lose a lot of damage and magic durability anyway that way. Compared to Beruka... well, the speed is better, as is the damage. Middle.
Izana - Okay he really doesn't want this route. Now doubled by average, he does get a bit more damage in return but this just makes him a better Orochi, which isn't really good enough. Light/Middle.
Shura: He can activate Highwayman more easily now! Too bad he doesn't double average even with it. He's got pretty bad damage and isn't too impressive past the evasion. Has counter options but they aren't very good, so yeah, it's mostly gonna be evade or bust with him. Middle.
Yukimura: Yo dawg I heard you liked headaches. The fast double him, but after silver shuriken counter they don't... still that can be bad in some slugfests. Replicate is really cool, though suicide against MT, so he's spoiled extra bad by that even compared to most ninjas. But against ST, he can replicate, and get either dual strike counters + massive turn 2 offence or push his durability a little further with Pairup for a long fight. Kinda tanky. Middle/Heavy? I really am not sure.
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Reading that Yukimura build makes me want to see a Proving Grounds with him. I'm definitely on the pro-items side for him, so he's got a lot of interesting strategies, especially for a FE character. (Whoever heard of an FE character winning by stalling?)
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Awakening kids, totally for fun:
* Gerome, Laurent, Cynthia, Yarne, & Nah: They're all very similar to their mothers. Cynthia's the biggest winner, as even a small increase in damage & durability matters a lot when you're that fast: she scores more one-round kills and is harder to kill with ITE. Laurent loses a little damage, gets some durability on Miriel. Gerome is a Cherche clone, Nah is a Nowi clone. Yarne might be the biggest loser - he trades a LOT of speed for a smidge more durability & damage. Yarne & Nah are both erratic due to "how many extra levels" headaches, as they've been given fewer bonus levels (due to the surge being so late) than their parents, so I can easily see taking them as better or worse.
* Lucina was more provided for completeness, as she should certainly be caught up with the adults by end-game and not still at L15. Being scaled against the kids and without extra levels just makes her look worse (although hey, her starting stats are mildly better…), as does not having Sumia's good speed genes.
* Kjelle is a little bit less tanky than General Kellam, but gets Luna, which is actually pretty good with Braves.
* Brady is COMPLETELY HORRIBLE, as it should be. Doesn't have an argument for an A in Axes (unlike Libra) so lol at his damage. Gets doubled and killed by everything.
* Noire - I hope you like hearing BLOOD AND THUNDER because the proc rate on Vengeance is gigantic. Like Owain, she has bad Str due to mage mom but is badly saved by Bow/Swordfaire, which is +10 damage thanks to Braves (+20 when doubling!). No Shining Bow to put that good Magic score to good use, though. Anyway, pretty cool; Brave-powered Vengeance blasts are fun.
* The Heroes-in-time & space trio of Owain, Severa, & Inigo: Severa is weirdly disappointing for an infuriatingly good-character in-game. Did I mess up somewhere, or are the Serenes charts wrong? Even with a +2 Speed inheritance she's just not real speedy. Ends up a Flavia clone. Will usually want her Fates form even if given form-choice. Inigo is the reverse; he ends up weirdly speedy and with super-evade thanks to his mother's great Luck, at a trivial cost in durability & damage. What happened to you in Fates, bro. :(
Owain, like Noire, is saved by Swordfaire so hard. He's not as fast as the likes of Lon'qu or Gaius, but he's fast enough to double average by the combined cast average… not the kids-only average, though. He's decent with a Levin Sword, too. Plus now he has random Miracle saves to hype along with Killing Edge crits?!
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Breath of Death 7
DEM- 3HKO off above average speed with buffs that can wreck healers. Nothing really stands out otherwise. 3.15.
Sara- Fast with good healing. Doesn't really have the damage to 2HKO (although she can buff it). Her fatal flaw is status (well, status and potentially other healers since her damage isn't cheap). I think that she's an excellent Middle, but I'm just not sure she has the package for Heavy (I think in the end, adding in elemental reliance just puts her on the wrong side of the border). 3.7
Lita- I don't respect her status as much, which hurts. Turn 2 Sleep (turn 1 against those with bad status res sometimes) can combine into ID. The Drain faceplanted. Blind and Silence are turn 2 as well. She's functional in Light, but really wants to go first or go against someone who has low damage. 2.85
Erik- Slow, but he borderline 2HKOs. 16.8% PC HP Regen+Permanent poison could nap him some weird wins in Light...until I remembered that most people who would fall to this strategy also can cure the Poison (Rena, Bernadette, Mint...etc), making him that standard slow bruiser type. 2.9.
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Xenosaga- By far, everyone at least benefits by having solid magical and physical damage...the flip side is that they all 3HKO so no one stands out.
Shion- She can inflict a decent Atk down effect turn 1 (I'm being kind of nice to her on it since technically it's more that she has 2 versions to use against different enemies that can combine to turn 1, but oh well). Other than that, her healing isn't so great (65%) considering that she can only use is 6 times, but it might be decent against some when paired with Atk Down. Ether Bomb could have some use against healers except it means forgoing better chipping damage (although she at least has a few physical ether spells to still maybe help...a tad). Weird, would like to see how she plays out now in practice. 3.3
Old DL matches: Would only change the win vs Ana (and Ana beat her 22 seasons later anyways)
KOS-MOS- Not exactly as good as hyped. No 2HKO at base off subpar speed is bad combo. However, it's nice to have DEX down as a spell so that SChain doesn't need to be on High. I'm honestly not fully convinced that DEX Down is good enough to actually help her out enough against Heavy fighters. 4.0 (which might be high). Certainly closer to the Middle border than Godlike.
DL matches: She 2HKOs Yuiri, but Sleep is there. Yuiri would choose to block Dex Down and then tries to hold KOSMOS down with Sleep. Might work.
Nicholai: Nicholai wins this to me and it's not remotely close. He's faster and even though he misses the 2HKO on her barely, she's nowhere close to 2HKOing him to me.
Zeno- Might depend on if she can be hit with Dex Down
Fenril- Probably should be a loss. Fenril has too much evade and too much damage too quickly.
Chaos- Best Ally is pretty cool. 100% Auto Life (even if it's costly and shuts off most of his ability to use other magic). Damage+Dispel is at least a passable combo in the DL. 3.55
DL matches: God, look at that Light run. Garet might have a status that can beat him, Porom certainly wins but then Chaos should probably beat Marivel. Then in Middle, Best Ally should see him past Ryudo.
Jr- So, Misty is turn 2 to me and I probably don't see it getting magic damage anyways. So...your all around XS type with not much else overriding statwise. 3.15
DL: Loses to Maru. Should have a nice 0-3 record in the DL.
Momo- Well, Confuse is turn 2 to me and is not particularly great anyways (unless say Sharon's Charm, there really isn't an argument that a Confused enemy won't just whale on MOMO in a duel-- which is fine because her Confuse sucks in game)...so she's a frailer 3HKOer. 2.85
DL:
Loses to: Banon (probably. He'll just use his damage and with her durability...not a great combo).
Karn (Not mathing this out, but she's frail and he's faster)
Mallow (Uh...blocks Confuse anyways, has better healing)
Jude (I think, but she may have had XS 3 by then)
Weird that she struggled more with the matches she had in Light than in Middle...but I guess a good chunk of those she fought in Middle were likely Lights)
Ziggy- My Guard is decent in game, but credit may vary in the DL. Otherwise, some shade of Middle. He can stall a little since he has the best practical healing. 3.4
DL: Should have lost to Dekar who has like double the damage and even better HP.
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Riou- Forgiver Sign just a hair under 2 PC HP damage to me and ITD to boot. However, while he's fast, he's limited in that a lot of the nasty Godlike bosses that he could OHKO will neutralize him first. 4.7
DLwise: Okay, looking at his record, he may arguably beat Miguel (under some CC boss HP viewpoints), Asgard, Luca Blight, Galcian and Lavos. Seeing this raised my impression a little.
In the DL: By some Miguel HP interp
Amada- Slow 5HKOer. 2.15
Boot Bait! Who cares for plot relevance, but you are hyper forgettable and bad
Anita- Hair above average in basically all stats and damage. 3.2
Boot Bait- No plot importance, nor anything really going for her dueling wise.
Bob- Great fun. Crazy speed while transforming, at which point he cuts physicals by 80% and 2HKOs. Fails against healers hard core, but fun slugger. 3.4
Bolgan- Slower 5HKOers. 2.0
DL Wise: Had the extreme luck of facing Jogurt
Boot Bait. For all that he has enough face time...this game is riddled with horrible punies, and that Tech makes him horrible in game.
Camus- Enough punch to perhaps grab OHKOers occasionally, and at least a on the right side of the speed curve (if only generally enough to beat average, it's very important) and enough defense to be worth noting. Doesn't feel like he quite has the overall package for Heavy though. 3.65
DL wise: Probably OHKOs Taya (albeit not really digging into that much)
Chaco- Fast 6HKOer, but now frail. 2.2
Boot bait. Plot relevance, but again, not enough to overcome the fact that Suikodens have a million characters and that he's bad
Clive- Generally worse in all ways compared to S1...except evade, which is a lot better. Probably comes out about the same. 2.85
Still boot bait.
Eilie- 5HKOs with slightly above average speed. 2.2
Flik- Now with OHKO damage, but less speed. I guess this form is a little better overall, but both feel pretty close...3.95.
Freed- Slow 5HKOer who is locked into an element. 2.05
DL Wise- Oops, probably shouldn’t have beaten Rahal since Rahal cuts his damage 40% with his default.
Futch- Fast 5HKOer. Never wants this form. 2.4
Gabocha- 5HKOer whatever. 2.15
Boot!
Gengen- God so many of these. 2.15
Boot!
Georg- Not like he wants this form, but great for a S2 fighter. Fast, evasive, but still rocking that hideous Mdef. 3.2
Gijimu- 2HKOs, albeit more slowly than average speed. Def is cute enough to perhaps get him into Middle cleanly. 3.15
DL Wise: Double Light champ was cool (although I’m sure I voted for Porom)
Hix- Slightly above average speed 3HKO with an ability to ream healers. Feels very borderline and that he could even be low Middle. 3.0.
DL Wise: Should have beat Katt
Humphrey- Taking S2's slot as the defense lord. 2.9, similar to Kwanda
Jowy- OHKO, great speed. 4.50. Very borderline, as we know well. OHKO isn't really great enough to be sure that he'll be OHKOing and he doesn't really have any other tricks, so maybe a little lower?
DL Wise: Should take Ryu (OHKOs him under the highest damage average). Most everything else was right.
Kahn- 2HKOs off decent durability. Another solid high Light type. 2.9.
Karen- Slow, undamaging, undurable. 2.1whatever.
Boot. Late, dull, plotless
Kasumi- S1 is better if only because of being truly ITE, but still a middle here. 3.15
Killey- Little bit less durable Camus. 3.5
Kinnison- At least he 4HKOs. 2.55
Boot.
Koyu- That speed is definitely worth something. 2.6
Long Chan Chan- 3HKOs, speed, dat HP+evasion. Decent Middle slugfester. 3.35
DL Wise: Should have beaten Mara (he 2HKOs first)
Lorelai- Doesn't use this form, but solid. 4HKOs, on the right side of the speed curve, few quirky runes, some evade. 2.7
Lo Wen- Water Rune is great, Knockdown is cool, SL off good speed is good. 2.9. Feels like she deals with a lot of Light realy well, but struggles in Middle with that damage. She can't really put out much damage under SL, so she does rely on mages going down quick.
DL Wise: Ouch, should have lost to Eiko. Silent Lake doesn’t last long enough and Eiko’s durability is passable enough. Stun helps, but not enough there since Eiko getting 1 turn to heal up basically throws off Lo Wen’s whole game.
Luc- Speedy 2HKOer. 3.3
Mazus- Massive, slow elemental damage. Doesn't like status, but durability is suprisingly good. 4.
DL Wise: Should have beaten Alena
Meg- Better damage than Lo Wen, but the durability downgrade hurts. Maybe about the same in practice. 2.85
DL Wise: Loses to Estella likely (Can’t do enough damage under SL). Perhaps Galleon as well (she hates his defense, but not mathing it out)
Miklotov- 2.5. 4HKOs, solid defense, nothing else special (well, legal Fire halving)
Millie- 3.5. Allow the Lightning rune=solid OHKO damage. Jeane remix/+ (Better PDur)
Also Boot!
Mukumuku- 1.00
Boot!
Nanami- 4HKOs+Speed. 2.75
DL Wise: Loses to Chisato, who just 2HKOs her. Loses to Karyl is my strong gut as well.
Nina- I allow her the Fire Rune, so 3.35. Near OHKO, but slow
Oulan- Lacking damage and speed, but her durability is cool (albeit not amazing). 2.35
DL Wise: Loses to Banon (yeah, she’s not dealing with his infinite healing and better speed)
Pesmerga- Average damage, very good against physicals. All Fire though. Better than S1, not completely dull. 2.9
Rikimaru- Slow 4HKOer. 2.25
Boot!
Rina- Slow 2HKOers, albeit more solidly than say Kahn. Granted, Kahn has durability. 2.85
Sheena- Slow 3HKO that spoilers evadable physicals. 3.15 maybe, doesn't want this form.
Shin- Borderline 2HKO that healers hate. Slow keeps him around L/M border. 3.00
Shiro- Wants game to end at midpoint. 2.2.
Boot!
DL Wise- Should rightfully lose to Noel most likely (don’t have 6HKO damage. Just don’t). Akaghi is a hideous, hideous rob beyond all belief
Sid- Sigh. 2.00
Boot
Sierra- Elegantly versatile. 4.3. Hard to deal with unless you block her damage types
DL Wise: Should have lost to Rika and likely WA 1 Jack (faster, turn 1 status…as least as far as testing that we have shows)
Simone- 2.1. Boot
Stallion- I allow the Wind Rune, giving him a very fast 2HKO. 3.3
Boot
Tai Ho- 2.75
Tengaar- 85% damage, little slow on damage, spoils evdable phys. 3.7. Very close to Heavy, and could be there.
DL Wise: The site failed when I tried to look her up
Tir- Better damage than S1, but way worse speed. Not a good tradeoff. 4.6
Tsai- 2.5. Still going...
Valeria- Fast 2HKO, but not as much damage. 3.45
Viki- 2
Viktor- S1 was faster, but had that accuracy. 2.5
Vincent- Not good, but could be worse. 4 shots of healing, limited magic. Evade does pair with healing. 2.65
DL Wise: Not sure how he got past Elly, but probably should beat Rufus
Wakaba- Good speed, HP and evade. 4HKOs. Can sometimes be tripped up by Fire res. Solid Light, but I think the last of punch holds her back from Middle 2.9
DL Wise: Loses to Tellah (I think he should OHKO and isn’t OHKOed here). Unlike Oulan, speed+better accuracy should help with Banon
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Cold Steel 2 rankings because I have the averages done and want to hear other people's thoughts. I've spoken to Pyro, Snowfire and CK, but nothing regarding which division they would potentially be in (since we were all waiting for averages).
As a general note, this cast is sort of weird in that everyone is very much magically reliant. That's where all their damage comes from. So if you have great magic defense (Yulie) or magic immunity (Worker 8), it will generally give the cast problems. Also, most of the big damage comes from their high tier spells which cost a lot of MP, so this cast really fears healers in general since they can't pressure offensively as say those in Skies 1/2. The exception to this is if the character has some useful craft in his or her inventory, in which case will give them to ability to maybe utilize some physicals.
Rean - No change from initial thoughts. Valimar!Rean feels very much Godlike. Goes off good speed and can dish out enough damage to kill in just a little under turn 2. Even without Valimar, Rean has his Delay game, which is basically a variant off Levin's Cancel Strike. He has his own share of advantages but shares similar flaws as Levin with this strategy. The physically immune, evasive or those with ranged counters will spoil him. Without those tools, he struggles. Bad magic damage, and ogre form is a little too CP intensive. 200 CP interps are interesting for Rean because it lets him play around in Ogre form more than 100 CP and gives him nastier status and forces enemies to block those as well. High Heavy at the very least.
Elise - Heavy. Looking at some of Super's recent proving grounds for example, she crushes most of the lower end Heavies (Auron/Serge) and can up good fights with some High Heavies and even wins some of them there (Raquel/Ness). The added freeze chance to her damage means there's a constant threat since getting hit by that is very dangerous (both the HP poison and loss of actions are quite problematic) and her healing is very fast thanks to her MQ bonus. If she gets Haste up, becomes absolutely terrifying because then she constantly doubles with her magic and the healing becomes something like 1/3 the recharge rate. Doesn't like strong physical slugfesters and common element stops her really from gaining much traction up the higher divisions, but is solid for what she is.
Toval - High Heavy. Toval just has a lot of tools even if he can't keep his strong damage up for long. He reminds me of a variant of Arnaud, basically trading in massive evade and Slow Down for a combination of status/equip options and blocking status. He can get perfect evasion and the magic evade + magic durability and mediocre healing can make him a total nuisance to put down, even by mages. And if you don't block the status, he just shuts down your offense with his crafts, then takes his merry time killing you with L1s/L2s. Lacks the punch for Godlike, but can scare a good number of Heavy challengers.
Machias - Low Middle. Rides entirely on his gimmick. Once again, I don't think most Lights can deal with 50% damage reduction and 20% regen. And if you can't deal with that, Machias wins since he can just slowly chip you down with low tier magic. Saintly Force lets him bump up Defense/Speed for more damage reduction and faster healing, so he might be slightly better in practice. I have my doubts though. For offense, he's basically screwed. He hopes you don't block Petrify because that's turn 2 and is fatal since it lasts forever. Anything past that though, and he's has serious issues. He can haste himself and apply Poison at 10% chances with his physical! Aw yeah.
Elliot - Low Heavy. Elliot was never going to be about damage in the first place. He's a staller and a pretty good one since he can drop offense, add regen, put you to sleep and then heal until the cows come home. I've theorized him again against some matches and he can hold his own against some Heavies (Auron/Magdalen/probably Fate as well). Would love to see him more in practice to be sure. Below average speed isn't a good start, but his durability isn't total garbage, so he can make it work somewhat.
Fie - High Heavy. Ahaha, that speed is nuts. She's all about getting the Stun or ID to proc, and either one triggering is seriously bad news for the opponent. Stun adds 50% more damage to her attacks, and since you can't act during that time, she's more than happy to then slow you down and then pick you off with CS2 BASE PHYSICALS. You laugh but with link attacks being now 100% and 50% more damage on everything, its a terror. The evade is nice and can often stave off a turn, or she can use Concealing Wind to try and buy a couple more actions. Dies to pretty much anything that hits her because effective 78% durability is just amazing bad.
Alisa - Godlike. I mean, she doesn't like the damage average being higher, but 3 Radiance Arcs, two of them at 50% more damage is a lot of damage. And that's assuming you can OHKO off the bat. If you can't and she actually gets to do something, she has actual offense too and it *hurts*. Just really a question of if she's more on the lower Godlike spectrum or not.
Gaius - Middle. It's Kimahri, except with less versatility. Runs screaming from any mage but is an extreme physical spoiler with Seal/Blind and his crazy evade. Low damage doesn't help. He can sacrifice a little evade for mediocre healing and pair that up with Earth Pulse to drop S-crafts quickly, but again, any mage opponent will see through it and make it to dangerous for him to sacrifice that HP when his healing is so abysmal.
Millium - Middle. Stat are awful, but the two guards means that in practice, Millium always gets at least one turn to do something. Buffing speed to help improve casting, then dropping the big tiers down and hope that's enough. If she was fast, she could pull off that Earth Guard nonsense, but Milie is just too sluggish for that work.
Claire - Heavy. Damage isn't really her forte, but she's got 2 bad ass crafts in her inventory and she can HP/EP with items so she can last a while for them to proc. They are hard to block too and fatal on hit so the healing matters a lot to keep her afloat.
Laura - High Middle. Purgatorial Flame into Radiant Lion is enough for those that hover around average. Alternatively, she stalls until 200 CP, at which point, Radiant Lion gains another 50% more damage and potentially one shots. She kind of struggles otherwise due to the lack of EP and sluggish speed. Might be better in practice? Feels like a Vayne variant - if your durability falls within the range, she will wipe you.
Emma - Low Middle. Anybody with a 3HKO physical gives her some issues. Having below average durability and being sluggish is a bad enough combo but her damage isn't that stellar either. She's the inverse of Gaius in a way. Spoils magic heavy opponents with her evade and anti-magic tricks but has a hard time with physical duelers.
Jusis - Heavy. Damage. Has a lot of it along with a handful of options on hand that make it such that he's hard to put down. He's average stat wise, so may be worse than I'm kneejerking, but he feels like a good fit in the division.
Sharon - Low Godlike. Initiative, unevadable 100% ID is scary. Against other PCs, she's fast, accurate and can status them out. In fact, if you don't block status, you're pretty much screwed. Kind of frailish and not built for longer fights so she has some problems with bosses.
Sara - Low Heavy. Can carry that super crazy evade Gaius has got, but can back it up with damage.
Alfin - Heavy. You pretty much need to OHKO her or she makes you pay for it. It's possible that there is some combination of durability that can outlast her trick, but its a strong one and being able to defer to more EP effective spells means that she also doesn't need to drop a ton of EP on the really high tier spells like the rest of the cast. Delay resistant foes spoil her though, for all that its rare.
Angelica - High Middle. It's possible that Angie hits Low Heavy, but as CK alluded to, I think she has Claire's problem and without the EP recovery. Probably runs out of gas too quickly for all that, what she does have available lets her adapt to a bunch of situations, so she might be riding that border.
Towa - Middle. Damage is bad, but a combo of healing + Weakner means that Towa doesn't need to use the heavy tier spells as much either. She wishes she wasn't sluggish, but as is, she's a variant on Elliot it feels. Worse because she trades off his versatile buffs and better healing for EP restoration and slightly better damage output long term, which isn't as good synergy.
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Tide wanted my Cold Steel thoughts so here they are I guess. I assume 200 starting CP (Inns restore CP). I am unsure about assumed status resistance. I take the kill point at ~55K, which means most of the cast can 2HKO average durabilty but I am okay with that (It kind of comes with the territory of having 200CP insta-burst damage). This and the cast's general options (statuses, blockers, damage/CT juggling to zone in on the most efficient kill) make it pretty good.
Rean: Not sure if I allow Valimar yet. Not sure how I feel about delay-loop-locking. Heavy/Godlike. Regardless he has one of the best S-Breaks so can pick up OHKOs/2HKOs really simply off good speed.
Elise: Fast Healer who regens resources with her damage. This is really quite good. Can burst damage to get a KO and has Freeze status in the wings. Not bad. Heavy-ish. Does not like water res.
Toval: He has some evade game and his non-elemental damage isn't bad. Heavy-ish.
Machias: Initiative 200% random status! Random... is not terribly scary otherwise regen + damage halving is cool. Middle.
Elliot: Slow and not very damaging but lots and lots of healing. And he has some status to work with in addition to his SCAN reducing enemies to like 1/5th of their damage. Middle/Heavy.
Fie: She's fast and has ID/stun to play with. That alone gets her to Middle-Heavy. Beyond that she can user 200CP to set up Concealment, giving her 3 free attacks (and her S-Break is still 150% because it crits under Concealment). Too bad spells don't crit under Concealment. There are games she can play to squeeze in more damage too. So she makes a decent Heavy.
Alisa: Oh hey kill her 3 times to win. Full restore including CP upon 2 of those KOs. That's cool. So she'll absolutely get off 85000 damage even if you are a hyper-fast OHKOer. Status that she doesn't block (not much of that) is still subject to this too. That's on top of what damage she can edge in during a fight. Her buffing game is decent and Altair Canon's magic debuff is nasty for reducing incoming magic damage. Insight for physicals. Some healing too. She's just... really really nasty. Did I mention her Initiative S-Craft has 200% Mute?
Gaius: Perfect evade is awesome. Not much else to him though? His options are significantly worse than others. Middle/Heavy. Perfect evasion isn't something to sneeze at.
Millium: She's slow but status blockers and nulling the first physical and magical attacks mean she may as well be fast? She has Faint, she can debuff a foe's damage. Probably makes for a High Middle.
Claire: Status whoring. Not sure how I feel about the items yet but I'd probably allow a certain $ value and access to food items (which can include good buffing!). This could make her quite good. Even besides the 100% Freeze which is cool.
Laura: So having the best S-Craft in the game really drowns out her other issues. KOs folks before they can move is a hell of a way to start a fight. If she gets a turn she can boost that damage some or spoil physicals a fair bit with Insight. She has Faint (50% nominal) and Mute (90% nominal) on top of her stuff. She's already borderline Godlike just due to the Initiative (really turn-interrupt) OHKO.
Emma: Outside of spoiling mages (75% magic evasion and Crescent Shield) Emma really doesn't have much going for her. She might be able to pull an OHKO on the magically averagish/frailish. Her speed and durability are poor however (although her speed isn't so bad when she gets going, it's not going to matter too much usually). Probably a High Middle/Low Heavy. Burst damage helps.
Jusis: Hits fast and hard. His S-Craft can let him put out 100% Seal, and he can Altair Canon-> S-Craft to score a round 1 KO. Insight helps vs Physicals, and he's quite fast when spamming wind magic. Has a variety of Damage/CT options that let him zone in for a kill. High Heavy is his most likely place. Doesn't have the options for Godlike but he's a terror for racking up damage and Seal is a good status.
Sharon: Status whore from hell. Nominally 100% ID on an S-Break is just mean. On top of that she has Juggler's status and her own Craft statuses and Chrono Burst to raise those odds... That much status whoring belongs in Heavy/Godlike. Beyond that she's pretty lacking damagewise and hasn't much in the way of options. Status whoring alone is good enough for Heavy/Godlike.
Sara: She can screw over physical fighters with Insight evade or by nuking their damage with -50% Atk. Mages face down her decent burst damage or her Speed halving debuff. So she makes it to Heavy I feel on account of the general quality of options and stats.
Alfin: Not sure how I feel about delay locking. Other than that she has a 2HKO with no S-Break, limited resources, and no status options. Middle/Heavy depending on the delay hype train.
Angelica: Good stun odds and Insight are a nice start. I need to figure out how good Emblem's damage reduction is as that could be silly. Triple Advantage might deserve some hype. And if she Dragon Boosts and gets back up to 200 CP that's going to leave a mark.
Towa: Other than some low status odds she's really lacking in options. Also her damage isn't that great and her stats are subpar. So Middle it is.
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First off, amazing work that Tide did in the CS2 stat topic. Nice!
I can't comment TOO much on Cold Steel 2, as some of the interps would probably require me to actually play CS2 and get a good sense of what seems "fair" (e.g. assumed default enemy status resistance... ), but just from theory...
* Not sure if Pyro means "50ks" or actually around 50,000 exactly for the kill point, but holy crap the cast likes that considering the 100 CP killpoint is 53K, and it's only getting better with 200 CP. (Laura now can pick between initiative OHKO or annihilation overkill with resolve a single Purgatorial Flame -> 200 CP S-Craft.) I think that's a tad too nice myself. More generally, S-Breaks are pretty dominating in the DL as-is, so I'd want a really good in-game reason to go to 200 CP starting. (Considering that sometimes a cast gets *perfectly reasonable* stuff in-game denied because it makes the damage average wacky, so it'd need to be an amazingly good argument. Example: FFX Overdrives, which if they started even half-full, probably need to go in the damage average thanks to Triple Overdrive making accessing them really easy. Hence the overly harsh assumption of empty ODs.)
* More generally, since I see that Tide added in some more damage averages, I'm more inclined to use the 3-turn average killpoint of 52K myself, the 75 CT average where most characters don't use their S-Craft average is too nice. In general, barring maybe Laura or some weird cases like Machias or MAYBE Gaius, and ignoring Alisa as a special case, characters only use their S-Craft as a finisher. This makes the long recoil on it irrelevant in the DL. On the other hand, the case for niceness is MP restrictions, which *are* quite relevant in the DL, and further are (probably) not very relevant in-game thanks to everyone who might be worried having EP Cut 2 as well as EP restoration items. If I'm really bored, I might be interested in using something like a 4-turn or 5-turn average and letting characters use that as long as a fight would credibly threaten to last 3 or more turns. This would still allow for a free S-Break at the end, CP permitting, but most characters would fall back to more MP-efficient offense, although a few characters with buffs actually do more damage on the longer-term average thanks to being able to make use of Fortuna and the like. So.... it wouldn't help too much. I dunno, maybe kneejerk the killpoint down to a clean 50K due to MP woes and call it a day.
* If Turn 1->Turn 2 -> Turn 3 is seen as when the damage *resolves* rather than input happens, that comes out to 31 -> 62 -> 92. Considering that it's 26 ticks for turn 1 input, this means that in general characters can shave off around ~5-6 ticks on average by using physicals or Crafts if they need to hurry up.
Some specific character notes... huh. I think the cast will prove better than expected, some of those Middles are champ-powered, and same with the Heavies. Good status-blockers matters quite a bit in the DL and this cast has 'em. The main thing this cast hates are tanks and tanky bosses, due to the aforementioned MP woes, but those aren't actually THAT common. Fine, the cast bites it to BoF1 Sara, but spoilers gonna spoil.
* Kneejerking, Rean's Valimar looks legal. I say this as someone who doesn't think Call Team is legal in DQ8. This seems closer to Yuna: a unique command that you can't miss that is closely "tide" to Rean. So mech away in Godlike off that ludicrous speed. (46 CT for 3 attacks? Sheesh.)
* Sharon & Alisa are GLs too, with Alisa being the strongest in the cast. Damage that you can't really stop even via killing her multiple times is some SMT form-shiftin' bullshit, I approve. (I might change my mind on Sharon if I decide that enemy status resistance should be taken as much better, but eh.)
* Elise & Claire are easily Heavy. Freeze is a pretty exotic status, neither are easy to OHKO, and they have powerful Trails status blockers. They can both stall really well too, Elise with infinite draining & Claire with items which seem reasonable enough to allow in her case. Jusis is Heavy too; Seal is way more commonly immuned than Freeze in the DL, but he makes up for it with better damage and a cheesy perfect evade game.
* I'd kneejerk our dear teacher on the Heavy side, but sure, remains to be seen in a PG. Powerful evade game + good status blocking + Attack debuff for ITE fighters + not totally fail damage that is EP-efficient = a good overall package. There's the occasional Middle Mage that can handle this, but that feels more like Sara getting spoiled herself.
* Elliot hype would require knowing how often stat debuffs are immuned, especially by bosses, since that seems pretty key to his game. But sure, Low Heavy at worst.
* Laura's a one-trick pony, yeah. Still, Purgatorial Flame -> Radiant Lion is 51K damage. That's a OHKO if I'm using 50K as the killpoint if you don't resist fire or the like. If this trick doesn't work she is in deep, but it works pretty often.
* Angelica is weird and probably a bit of a headache what with Emblem's damage reduction apparently being untested but weirdly potent. She seems practically impossible to kill, but has *major* problems killing herself what with that failtastic physical and harsh MP restrictions. Still, having something like 3x effective durability backed by a few shots of healing means that she probably wins a lot of slugfests, but fails really hard against ID-immune healers or tanks. Sure, High Middle as a guess, but she's really swingy.
* Emma's another spoiler warning. Beats Heavy mages, loses to Low Middle fighters.
* Machias should be fun in PG. That stall game is pretty good actually, so he'll have time to get his Petrify off more than you'd think in Middle. Fears Fire Emblem characters and other Middles with actual damage, tho. He might well be better than Millium, who just seems too slow at actually killing and too bad at stalling. I'm not super-impressed with Towa's stalling, either, off that speed score.
* I don't have a good sense of Alfin or Fie's game. Actually mathing out CTB and turn times is super-important with these two.
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Pyro and I have had some discussions regarding starting CP. I know that Pyro considers 200 CP because there are inns in-game which you can use and they offer to restore 100 CP per rest (so do it twice, full CP bar) and you can do this before an operation.
I don't buy this myself because CP maintenance at 200 is hard. Like much harder than it is for EP maintenance (which you guessed correctly that it is relatively trivial in-game thanks to quartz that provides field EP Regen) unless you outright don't use crafts. While I can't speak for how anybody else plays, I used a combo of fighters and mages and even with a CP battery and CP Regen accessories, maintaining max CP with the fighters almost never happens. You'll typically be at around the 150 CP range at which point there is no bonus on the S-craft anyway. Also, while you CAN go into an operation at 200 CP, once it starts, the rest points inside don't restore CP so it really isn't as freely available as it might seem. 100 CP on the hand is much easier. You have items that can restore lowish amounts of CP (10-40). The game auto-fills your CP bar to 100 after certain story events. There is more room to hold 100 CP, etc. Maybe the true method is to take it at 150 CP?!
I will note though that it's a pretty consistent viewpoint for me across other games that have a third meter. I see Limit gauges for FF7 start at 0, FFX overdrives starting at 0, 0 SP for Grandia 3 characters and so on. I'm also not sure I see Call Team as legal, just as I'm not sure if I see Valimar as legal, etc. I'm sure it's the same for Pyro, so this may just be us sticking to how we view resources in the DL as a whole.
Some additional thought and comments...
Re: Towa; I actually think she might be more of High Light versus a Middle, but my kneejerk is that the healing and low status odds are too much. Against Light, which is the division with really bad offense, bad durability and the like, Towa's subpar damage and bad recovery speeds can't really be exploited. And she excels against really poor damage dealers herself since that's where the status rates and EP restoration can see play.
Re: Machias; it's not so much the "Can he petrify in time" that's the burning question. The burning question IMO is, "Is his opponent vulnerable to Petrify". And I kneejerk that answer is 'No' more often than not since Petrify is a very common status type. Sure, some casts like FE/SMRPG cast don't block it (and maybe a few others) but without it, he's much worse. I think Millie is probably better than him since the halved earth recovery delay means she can at least Regen faster but she's very weird in general. At most, he resides in mid-tier Middle. Millie's the one I want to see in a PG since I have no idea where she is.
I will also note that Alisa is probably the first PC Godlike we've had in awhile that can legit beat Belial (Vanish is very analogous to 4D Pocket - it even uses Space element!). So go her! Pyro and I had some discussion about some other tricks she can pull, which includes casting Insight, then Muting someone with her S-craft or doing Altair Cannonx2 and Insight. But yeah, she's nasty and probably deserving of a PG to see which level of Godlike she ends up in. Not keeping buffs on death sucks, but by the same token you end up needing some permanent, lasts-after-death status to really put her down which might be a better trade.
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I'm not far enough in CSII to really comment on the cast overall, but I'm inclined to agree that 100 starting CP is the right balance. Cold Steel gives way more CP than Sky, and the whole "plot refills start you at 100" is a nice round benchmark. However, the game definitely expects you to spend it, and CSII in particular makes spamming base physicals to build up and conserve utterly impractical.
I already allowed call team (eating some of Guv's mp is a big contributor to seeing it as 'his') and while I don't have Valimar yet the topic suggests it's mechanically very similar and plot wise the fact that Rean can call Valimar and only Rean is already a Big Deal.
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The game pretty clearly allows you to get to 200 CP whenever you go into a dungeon or go off to fight something in the open-world segments. Basically the only time you can't restore CP to 200 at will is if you are locked in a dungeon. In which case you can use purchasable energy drinks or jellys or so on and restore 200 CP before a big fight if you want. Also there are times the game before big battles where your CP is restored to 200. The endgame dungeon (#1) featured putting your CP to 100 if it was less than that after bosses, but, you could get it back up between bosses. Magic becomes so potent that CP is only really good as a finisher. The analogy I consider is that it is like PS4 where you can't restore skill usages mid dungeon but we still consider them full. It is actually better a case for 200CP than that since you can also restore it with storeboughts and in battle. And you don't use base physicals to generate CP, as multi target spells are as if you used a base physical on every enemy you hit. This naturally leads to 200 CP when you are spamming awesome magic (almost all MT) and not using CP for base crafts (not too much reason to endgame).
Delay lock as a strategy probably requires me allowing Impede 1/2, which ends up being fine for Rean/Fie. I'll probably consider them as 100% Delay effectiveness if they take as many Impdes as they can (1&2 for Rean, Impede 2 for Fie). I'll think about it regarding Alfin's SCAN.
Damage averages and aversge CT for a turn are interesting things. The 3 and 5 turn 200CP charts I constructed were consistent with the ~50K I said. 3 turn more , 5 turn a bit less. Tide's lists assumed usage of 'best damage' regardless of CT which gets a little silly in some case (Emma using fire magic when she gets the zany speed boost on mirage magic). I thought about the three turn and it seems a bit harsh considering it tends to flatline a PC's EP, CP, and assumes a giant recharge on the end too. That said some of the cast has neat ways to try and not fall flat on their faces in a 5 turn (buffs, Impassion). I should also note that Tide assumes 25 CT for a turn but the 3 turn and 5 turn damage chart for CT is more like 28-30. When Tide 'adjusts ' for this he comes out to a lower average.
So for 200 CP I have...
Averages:
3-turn:23586, ~29 CT/turn
5-turn: 19277, ~27 CT/turn
Rean:
3-turn: 74775 over 76 CT (Flare Bombx3 -> 'Demon' Termination Slash)
5-turn: 86254 over 124 CT (Flare Bombx3 + Spirit U -> Autumn Leaf Cutter -> Physical -> S-Craft)
Elise:
3-Turn:66914 over 72 CT (Crystal FLoodx2->Shadow Blade->SCraft)
5-turn: 90329 over 112 CT (Crystal Floodsx5->SCraft)
Toval:
3-Turn: 69071 in 77 CT (Cross Crusade->Ragna Vortex x 2 ->SCraft)
5-Turn: 91151 damage in 125 CT (Cross Crusadex5->SCraft)
Machias:
3-Turn: 56230 in 104 CT (Yggdrasilx3, SCraft)
5-Turn: 71724 in 168 CT (Yggdrasilx4, Needle Shot->SCraft)
Elliot:
3-Turn: 56928 in 101 CT (Cross Crusadex3, SCraft)
5-Turn: 96796 in 161 CT (Fortuna, Cross Crusadex4, SCraft)
Fie:
3-turn: 55765 in 48 CT (Judgement Boltx3, SCraft)
5-turn: 69080 in 71 CT (Scud Wing, Judgement Boltx4, SCraft)
Alisa:
3-turn: 78891 in 76 CT (Cross Crusade, Altair Canon, Purgatorial Flame, SCraft)
5-turn: 119015 in 106 CT (Fortuna->Cross Crusadex3, Puragatorial Flame,SCraft)
Gaius:
3-Turn:56277 in 91 CT (Judgement Boltx3, SCraft)
5-Turn: 70787 in 141 CT (Savage Fang 2, Judgement Boltx4, S-Craft)
Millium:
3-Turn: 66705 in 84 CT (Yggdrasilx2, Ancient Glyph, SCraft)
5-Turn: 87842 in 132 CT (Yggdrasilx5, SCraft)
Claire:
3-turn: 69464 in 105 CT (Maelstromx3, SCraft)
5-turn: 89439 in 157 CT (Cross Crusadex4, Maelstrom, SCraft)
Laura:
3-turn: 85636 in 108 CT (Crystal Floodx3, SCraft)
5-turn: 90136 in 174 CT (True Armor Break, Crystal Floodx3, Forte, SCraft)*
*(Her 5 turn could be more efficiently described as a 4-turn by forgoing Forte, but this captures her 'cliff' of 5 turns)
Emma:
3-turn: 86369 in 103 CT (Phantom Phobia->Claimh Solarion, Purgatorial Flame, SCraft)
5-Turn: 124977 in 134 CT (Crescent MIrror, Phantom Phobiax3, Purgatorial Flame)
Jusis:
3-turn: 92002 in 73 CT (Judgement Boltx2, Ragna Vortex->SCraft)
5-turn: 133890 in 113 CT (Judgement Boltx4, Ragna Vortex, SCraft)
Sharon:
3-turn: 67099 in 64 CT (Grim Butterflyx3->Scraft)
5-turn: 97760 in 102 CT (Fortuna->Grim Butterflyx4, SCraft)
Sara:
3-turn: 74425 in 93 CT (Judgement Boltx2, Purgatorial Flame, SCraft)
5-turn: 93365 in 152 CT (Judgement Boltx5, SCraft)
Alfin:
3-turn: 73366 in 108 CT (Purgatorial Flame, Fire Bolt, Purgatorial Flame)
5-turn: 88820 in 168 CT (Phantom Phobia x4, Silver Thron)
Angelica:
3-turn: 72869 in 87 CT (Altair Canon, Dark Matter, Altair Canon, SCraft)
5-turn: 102772 in 134 CT (Fortuna, Altair Canon, Dark Matterx2, Altair Canon, SCraft)
Towa:
3-turn: 70792 in 101 CT (Crystal Floodx2, Ancient Glyph, SCraft)
5-turn: 97470 in 165 CT (Crystal Floodx5, SCraft)
Another inquiry is whether an average speed foe should get a turn at 'average PC speed' (without Charge Times) or 'Average CT that turn 1 damage is resolved on'. I tend to favor the latter, where Crafts and physicals are just very fast on initiative to balance their generally pitiful damage. This can make a big deal for folks who want to apply status with crafts. I could see not doing it but then the cast would have to get something in return to balance out the loss of having 'average speed' turn 1 damage.
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Persona 5 PC rankings
My rankings base off the "fair" averages Snowfire worked with Auto-Taru factored in (I allow Personas up to L80 base as long as they don't have other Personas above L75 among their components, which disqualifies Yoshitsune at the very least, and I allow itemization on Personas only up to L75 if they're not recruitable in a Palace or Mementos, which blocks Ren's and Makoto's best stat guns, along with pushing Ann away from Despair spam and denying Yusuke his theoretical evade game... not that it'd save him with his issues, he hates the broken stuff damage averages more than anyone else), as a disclaimer. Anyhow, onto topic necromancy.
Ren Amamiya/Joker - Godlike. Fortunately he has good status options off his guns and Personas and his Persona shuffling allows for great variety besides that (he can Charge/Concentrate to OHKO both durabilities, Debilitate to utterly cripple the slugfesting effectiveness of any foe and yeah, tons of options to pick for any given fight). However, he doesn't have the off-the-cuff overkill power P3 Makoto/Minato or Yu sport to really wreak havoc. In practice, he ends up being sort of a better variant on SH2 Yuri who needs to pay more attention to his affinities, since P5 weaknesses are nasty things. More dangerous against PCs than bosses due to the sheer wealth of status options, though bosses who let him play Debilitate/Heat Riser shenanigans will pay dearly for that mistake.
Ryuji Sakamoto/Skull - Heavy. Auto-Tarucharged God's Hand is horrifying (oh dear lord 1.7x PC HP, that almost OHKOs NESS) and Ryuji's durability makes it rather hard to keep it from coming. A tech hit God's Hand under Auto-Taru also lands a low OHKO to average, so shock's an actual option against the paralysis-vulnerable who aren't particularly durable in some cases (sometimes, Ryuji can't afford an enemy to get a second turn, so it has its uses). The wind weakness is problematic, but at least it's not that common an element exploit and P5 weakness isn't nasty the way P4 and -particularly- P3 weaknesses are (P3 being the game where a toddler with a matchstick could beat the crap out of Mitsuru, for instance). As a side note: his backup magic damage ain't winning him any matches in Heavy either, but it's actually not -horrible-? Running Elec Boost+Amp and Auto-Taru, he actually 3HKOs, so he doesn't fail it up completely against the Kimahris and Thomases of the world. Might even make him vs. Mog worth considering.
Morgana/Mona - Middle/Heavy? The kitty's quite hard to place due to so many conflicting issues and perks. Auto-Taru Garudyne's a low 2HKO off above average speed and Sukunda is a -great- tool for a healer (Persona 5 accuracy and evade being as horrifyingly comprehensive as they are). Additionally, he can cause hell against staller PCs with turn two Despair. On the other hand, dear god that durability and Thunder weakness (which, in fairness, is hard to hit him with even at base and even more problematic when Sukunda's in play). In theory, the package could rock Heavy, but the durability+weakness combo gets him spoiled often, since he has a good toolset to end battles within two turns, but literally nothing that decides the fight in the first. He's almost like a bizarro, better Yosuke in practice. Pretty funny, considering he cribs mainly from the Yukari mold in-game.
Ann Takamaki/Panther - Heavy for sure. Ann's main slugfest stats kinda suck (below average durability! Below average speed! 3HKO damage!), but her skillset's a red mage's dream. Cheap full healing, decent evade (which becomes -amazing- against her weakness, and that's a big deal), Tarunda to effectively double her durability against pretty much everything ever because P5 debuffs fucking rule, the Concentrate option to frontload or backload huge damage, an option to smash through fire resistance/immunity -and- two effectively lethal, insanely accurate status options in sleep and brainwash. It's a pretty complete package with viable options both for short and long battles - status for fights she needs effectively won with her first turn, healing and Tarunda for slower burns. She really wishes she had something closer to Makoto's stat spread to have REAL championship potential in the division, though.
Yusuke Kitagawa/Fox/Inari - Light. EDIT: so, Shock actually sucks. Inari's best bet in practice then is relying on turn-two Dizzy to score wins besides his terrible slugfesting game. That's not very good, but it -does- give him some worth in Light, Sukukaja stacks crazily with the accuracy halving... but it's so short-lasting. To top this off, below average speed, 3HKO damage that eats his HP, that awful fire weakness (even though he's hard to hit with it, he has terrible options for winning fast and he's not built for long matches either). Just a bad package. Dear christ, Yusuke.
Makoto Niijima/Queen - Heavy. And back to people who don't suck. For starters, she gets a better version of Yusuke's evade game: turn one dizzy off game-best speed => 2HKO with Atomic Flare while the enemy struggles to hit a durable as fuck healer. If that's not an option Makoto still can resort to her nice tanking game off Auto-Raku and oodles of healing, which she can sprinkle a bit with less accurate, but still dangerous status options (Brainwash and Forget in particular can be -very- nasty). Flipside is she hates status herself, and that can be an issue when her best options against it (Brainwash and Forget) are turn two. Wishes Shock lasted two turns, but them's the breaks.
Haru Okumura/Noir - Middle of some sort. Heat Riser => 2HKO either durability (magic scraping the kill by a pretty bare margin, though the physical 2HKO is definitely solid) while sporting near-2x PC HP. Not a bad proposition on paper, but unfortunately Haru's durability and speed fall squarely below the curve's average. Tetrakarn and Makarakarn spoiling are more an on-paper thing than in practice, to boot, especially running off those costs and subpar speed. Against healers slower than her or just with really bad damage, though, she can gamble with One-Shot Kill for a crit to score a one-rounding, at least (that manages to be turn two on average!), though no guarantees... -in fact-, actually, One-Shot Kill x2 is pretty much a backloaded effective 2HKO with one-rounding potential whenever a crit lands (1.5x damage on the crit, 1.5x damage on the FOLLOW-UP... yeah. If it didn't cost HP, it'd be a terrific slugfesting move. As is, makes an interesting gamble!). Pretty gimmicky slugger, really, in a fun and fundamentally flawed way.
Pretty strong cast overall.
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Cool thoughts. A couple questions for my curiosity (and for topic revisions):
1) What do you think about the bosses? Primarily the most rankable one (Black Mask)?
2) Mmm...well, Yoshitsune does require a > level 75 persona...Futsunushi, which is level 76. That's like 2 battles in Mementos Depths. Now, granted, Futsunushi is only available on the last day of the game, so that's annoying, but it's a minimal difference. Although I suppose if you have to set a cut-off point, that works, and thems the breaks. I can't see a reason to disallow Yoshitsune based on the details you've provided, unless...
3) When you say level 80 base , I assume you mean you allow personas that start at level 80 (like Mother Harlot), and allow them to level for their skills (so, Mother Harlot is 85)? But still take a character level 75? Would you put any limit on their level (assuming maxed links - 5 level gains before max FOOL, 6 after max FOOL...that's like all but one persona gaining their last skill - of course it's Yoshitsune - but with sacrifice, it's not a huge deal)?
4) Do you allow skill transfer at all? Isolation? Etc.? Details so I can build a more responsive topic
5) What do you think about DLC?
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1) What do you think about the bosses? Primarily the most rankable one (Black Mask)?
In terms of how I see the stats for the bosses, I might actually respect their stats very slightly more than you, since I've been consistently a level or two below your levels the whole playthrough! That's pretty funny! This said, Black Mask and Char Aznable are both shades of Godlike. Black Mask in particular has a pretty abusive game with Tetrakarn/Makarakarn + double-acting and easy OHKOs, but giving up initiative and not being very durable (like 1.2x PC HP after accounting for defenses? That doesn't give you a lot of leeway in Godlike!) makes his game better on-paper than it is in practice. In theory, Desperation+Heat Riser turns his offense into a fucking nightmare, but man if you let him get -that- far, you honestly DESERVE to lose. Still, pretty fun! And I'm glad he's rankable that way, because dear god I don't want to think about the scaling on his other form. Char, I probably hold him to his Masses Transformer form (the highest durability and best skillset of the lot), since the formchain does -not- meet my requirements for me to allow it. Good thing it makes Godlike too.
2) Mmm...well, Yoshitsune does require a > level 75 persona...Futsunushi, which is level 76. That's like 2 battles in Mementos Depths. Now, granted, Futsunushi is only available on the last day of the game, so that's annoying, but it's a minimal difference. Although I suppose if you have to set a cut-off point, that works, and thems the breaks. I can't see a reason to disallow Yoshitsune based on the details you've provided, unless...
3) When you say level 80 base , I assume you mean you allow personas that start at level 80 (like Mother Harlot), and allow them to level for their skills (so, Mother Harlot is 85)? But still take a character level 75? Would you put any limit on their level (assuming maxed links - 5 level gains before max FOOL, 6 after max FOOL...that's like all but one persona gaining their last skill - of course it's Yoshitsune - but with sacrifice, it's not a huge deal)?
To make things clearer: I'm pretty sure I allow -some- degree of higher-level-than-75 Personas because I allow Strength 10 for sure. I also set a limit on their max levels as +5 base (it's the max XP you can score with maxed confidant levels pre-MAX Fool, which uh kinda shows up WAY too late. It's like late in the last dungeon? Seriously? There -is- Persona sacrifice, but for optimum results, you also need to sacrifice expensive kids, so I prefer not to think about it). What I find prohibitive is mostly the COST, since Personas over five levels above mine started hitting prices well above 100k, and that's pretty prohibitive. I'm thinking about setting a limit on their costs for usage, but nothing too solid yet. Depending on how costs end up, I might even end up allowing Yoshitsune, but Hassou Tobi, being L86... yeah.
Also, for inheritance: I feel that, if the skills are available on the base skillset of -any- of the personas who originate the fusion, I think they're fine... as long as the limits for skill inheritance slots and all are respected. No skill cards and no sacrifice offerings, though.
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I'd add about half a division to Jo'ou's rankings, although I suppose I should go finish some votes in the PG thread. I know Jo'ou is baking in Tarukaja (which Yusuke hates) but are you up for Endure hype? It certainly nets the cast some "stolen" wins, and is especially potent on Ann & Morgana, as it makes their status game hard to stop with OHKOs in High Heavy. You have hilarious things like Tir *connecting his ID and still losing*, as 1 HP Ann just sleeps him and wins. (Or, alternatively, scoring a huge OHKO then losing anyway.)
Shock isn't THAT bad (despite my antihype). It is still good for Yusuke to set up a single, finishing, Technical'd Brave Blade, which isn't horrible, and Ryuji does unfair crap with Shock gun -> GH against frailer opponents. Although incidentally, looking at things more closely, maybe I should have used Myriad Slashes in the average? It's about the same amount of damage, for a less HP cost. Ah well. That said, Yusuke really wants every scrap of damage respect he can get, as he gets fearsomely bad against the higher damage averages.
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Re OK's comments (which I know were aimed at Jo'ou)... uh, lategame Persona bosses in general are weird since buffs & debuffs are so potent in it. (In-game Amaterasu vs. DL monster Ammie!) Anyway, Black Mask is an easy High Godlike, even with baking in some buffs and the like. You probably don't have Charge / Concentrate or just barely got them yet, so it's more that his damage will be weirdly good compared to in-game. I'd kneejerk his durability as higher than Jo'ou, but I don't think Negative Pile is 50% Despair, though, considering it's a PC ability, and I don't think I'd let him spam 2x Piles, and I'd probably scale the shield from Tetrakarn / Makarakarn to 1/4 effectiveness as well, because holy shit are those wasted moves in-game what with every PC nulling their own element. While I'm normally okay with formchains, just for sanity's sake, I think I'd start him in Loki form as well.
For the Joker comments, it reminds me a bit of all the hullabaloo over SN Reyva. It doesn't really matter that much if he's being given access to the full Persona list (grumble grumble Atlus deciding that freaking Satanel is the upgraded Arsene, which you will never see in-game). Let's say Atlus declares Bad Ending 1 is canon and the rest of the game is done by the other Phantom Thieves sans Joker, and the DL cruelly scales Palace 6 Joker against endgame everyone else. Well, Joker-with-access-to-L53 Personas and less is still Godlike. He'll still be able to find Personas that spoil his opponent's best damage, especially if any sort of inheritance is baked in. He'll still be able to pick a very fast Persona to start with, then switch to a Persona with status-you-don't-block and status-you-don't-block-boost. That's probably Godlike alone, even though this Joker is an incompetent slugger due to being 20 levels behind. Scale him against an end-of-Palace 6 cast, and he can probably slug JUST FINE in Godlike off full healing, Down Shot, and various Auto-buffs. The matches he loses are ones where there's some kind of tanky boss who sports a good PC-killing status. That's going to be true no matter what cool tricks you give Joker.
Anyway, I suppose that for Personas with a specific recipe - e.g. Yoshitsune, Michael, etc. - I'd allow inheritance of skills learned by parts, sure. For Personas that could come from anywhere, probably not, although I might be convinced to allow a single, general purpose damage-only skill so that Joker's spellcasting compares properly to in-game - e.g. an appropriate Element Amp, pretty much. I also don't see a reason not to assume Arcana Burst; all the other PC Confidants assume they're maxed, I'm willing to do the same for Joker. (Kinda mentioned this in the thread that I think Throne might be "too nice" for the cast, Joker is, without spending cash, always 5+ levels ahead of everyone else if you want.) Also, just again for sanity's sake, I'd probably let Joker get most of his cool goodies; maybe ban the starting-level L89+ stuff, because the cost on Metatron / Satan / Lucifer is truly insane, but just let him have the rest, and not hold the cast against it. Note that banning those last 3 means no Nataraja and no Tyrant Pistol for Joker. (Especially since you can only itemize a single item on the final day, so... yeah, you have to have done this earlier without the levels from the final dungeon.)
I didn't download the DLC, so no DLC hype from me. (There ARE games where I am willing to hype DLC, but this isn't one of them.)
-
Yeah, I forgot, but DLC content is a no-go for me too. Regardless, taking a maximum of L80 for starting persona levels still allows Akira his most important stuff. Atlus making Trumpeter a sub-level 60 Persona was a good idea there! I'm also pretty sure he can get Heat Riser from -somewhere- below L81, though I didn't care to find it (Heat Riser isn't much of an in-game thing, lol st buffs, especially in a game where Futaba exists).
Also, no Endure hype for me, it really soured on me back in the days of Persona 4 ranking. I started allowing it, but then I got tided over into -not-.
EDIT: For Yusuke... I suppose Shock is an option if he's facing a shock-vulnerable foe running below 0.84 pdur. Not much elsewhere, since average speed/durability/damage still beats that plan (shocked PC goes first, gets first hit in - especially if magical - gets shocked, Brave Blade and IF Yusuke doesn't get shocked himself, another smack finishes him off because skills eating HP sucks for slugfesting. If he DOES get shocked, god have mercy). Against people he can't 2HKO, he's really banking it on Dizzy, which isn't much of a strategy for a non-healer outside of Light. It doesn't help that blind immunity is -so common-.
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TitS 2 Bosses
Normal Mode, Using 2000 as the PC damage average, but doubling their HP for support credit (so most of them have around 2.5 PC HP). The big question is how much I allow S-Craft spamming
Blueblanc- Mini is evil and will beat most PCs (certainly not all though. It's not helping enough against say VP 1 Lenneth). One of the worst cases for S-Craft spamming from one who needs it the most (since if it's OPB, he struggles to 5HKO). Can't really call him a Godlike since even with 2.5 PC HP, his slugging is too anemic. 4.35.
Walter- Almost average speed. Solid 2HKO, spoils some physical hards, 100% Faint is awesome. 4.7
Luciola- She wishes I let her clones just wait (because then she kills anyone who is fully susceptible to Sleep since 100% Sleep->Add a Million Clones->Kill in a round), but I'm not inclined to do that. She at least has a good case from S-Craft spam, but she's still a slow 3HKOer who is entirely reliant on physicals. Hmm. 3.5ish. Deals well with Middle slugfesters often
Renne- Really depends on S-Craft spamming since I think the ID on it is only 50%
Loewe- Fast, solid 2HKO, good defense, clones are excellent, has magic backup that comes with some status. 4.85
Weissman- Eats PCs and spoils magic. He's a Godlike, but not a good one since he doesn't have the mettle for a Godlike slugfest. 4.6
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FF4:TAY
Ceodore- 4.25. Great tankish. Evade, options to kill F/I/T, Reflect, and some healing to top it off. Good speed means that he can often get Reflect up first too. For all that he doesn't like status, Evade for some physical status and Reflect for MAgical status should be okay. Reliance on Holy hurts.
Cecil- 3.6. Evade+Elemental Resist. Less Holy dependence than original game, but still too much.
Sidenote: The game designer clearly hated Cecil. Less a DL thing and more of how hideously bad they made him in-game. His son is great, his brother is absurd, and even his deadbeat best friend, who shouldn't even be in the same league, is notably better.
Rosa- 3.75. Charge Time on Holy hurts bad. Makes Reflect/Image very critical, because that's the only way she gets it off. Really hard to say how well this work without seeing it in practice, so gut checking H/M border. Berserk and Confuse are turn 1 to me, and Silence and Hold are close to it.
Kain- Blink is cool...albeit Kain's base evade makes not serve as much purpose. Paralyze is turn 2 (barely) and Haste is good. Now deals with healers well enough. 3.85, although that could be overrating
Rydia- 3.45. OHKO or good turn 1 status....but will be doubled by ~105% speed before it lands, which is a lot of opening
Edge- 2HKO off nasty speed. Even better if you respect Fuma's (50,000 for an extra ST 2,600 damage once versus 100,000 for an extra ~60,000 MT damage potentially?! Horrible money use)
4.1.
Cid- 2.6. There are worse Lights, but the speed burns
Yang- 3.25. Decent stats+turn 2 Confuse on attack. HP takes him up a bit, although he flops compared to FF4A
Palom- 3.25. It's slower Rydia!
Porom- 3.7. It's slower Rosa!
Edward- 2.25. At least you used to be really fast in 4a.
Luca- 2.7. Cid with a few more equip options and more speed (any extra speed helps)
Ursula- 3.7. Killer speed
Leonora- 3.35. The speed burns. But the defensive tricks and a few turn 1 statuses help. Doesn't even have the nasty OHKO to build to
Gekkou- Slow, backloadable 2HKO and good HP. 3.35
Zangetsu- No great physical options, and Blitz isn't fast. Shadowbind might be enough to scrape Middle. 3.1
Izayoi- A few cute options. Feels like very average Middle. 3.4
Tsukinowa- Likes evadable physicals and lots of speed. 3.7
Harley- Paralysis on the weapon is really the only really thing going for her, but it's not bad for Light. 2.75
Golbez- Black Mage damage with 30% more speed...and cracked out evade. OHKOs at about 70% damage. Doesn't have the raw damage or another compensating factor to hit Godlike, but he may not be far from it. Cutting 10% of status helps him a bit at least. 4.35
Sidenote: So good in game. Sure, evade all the physicals and draw all ST attacks! Also has the best upside for endgame speed (he can have another 22 points of speed in game compared to the DL).
Calca- 2
Brina- 2.15
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Dhyer's Updated Ranking List (Some of these old ones are probably quite out of date now...like Hilda as a solid Heavy!)
Games Included
AI, BoD 7, BoF 2, BoF 3, Brig, Child of Light, EP, FF 4: TAY, FF 13, FE 7, FE 10, FE 13, Grandia 2, Grandia 3, Jeanne D’Arc, Legend of Heroes: TitS 1, Legend of Heroes: TitS 2 (Bosses Only), Lost Odyssey, MK 2, Shadow Hearts 3, SO 3, Suiko 1, Suiko 2, TitS, Xenosaga
Number Log
Ryu (BoF 3)- 5
Tibarn (FE 10)- 5
Myria (BoF 3)- 4.95
Naesala (FE 10)- 4.9
Loewe (TitS: LoH 2)- 4.85
Nailah (FE 10)- 4.75
Shania (SH 3)- 4.75
Tir (S1)- 4.75
Walter (LoH: TitS 2)- 4.7
Riou (S2)- 4.7
Johnny (SH 3)- 4.65
Weissman (TitS: LoH 2)- 4.6
Caineghis (FE 10)- 4.55
Ryu (BoF 2)- 4.55
Teepo (BoF 3)- 4.55
Jowy (S2)- 4.5
Lucina (FE 13)- 4.4
MILLENIA (G2)- 4.4
Deis (BoF 2)- 4.35
GOLBEZ (FF4:TAY)- 4.35
Ike (FE 10)- 4.35
Blueblanc (LoH: TitS 2)- 4.35
Et (MK 2)- 4.3
CEODORE (FF4:TAY)- 4.25
RAZE (MK 2)- 4.25
FAYT (SO 3)- 4.25
Elincia- 4.2
Ulf- 4.2
Fang- 4.15
Hilda- 4.15
Lyn- 4.15
Edge (FF4:TAY)- 4.1
Athos (FE 7)- 4.1
Delsus- 4 (This must be an error)
Lon’Qu, Say’Ri (FE 13)- 4
Rufus (JDA)- 4
Nel (SO 3)- 4
Barbarossa (S1), MAZUS (S2)- 4
KOSMOS (XS 1)- 4
Estelle (LoH: TitS)- 3.95
EILEEN (S1), Flik (S2)- 3.95
KLEIN (AI)- 3.9
REI (BoF 3)- 3.9
Tiki (FE 13)- 3.9
Yuki (G3)- 3.9
MARIA (SO 3)- 3.9
Flik (S1)- 3.9
THAGE (EP)- 3.85
Kain (FF4:TAY)- 3.8
Snow, Vanille (FF 13)- 3.85
Hector (FE 7)- 3.85
Chrom (FE 13)- 3.85
ALBEL (SO 3)- 3.85
NORN (AI)- 3.8
Florina, Guy, Legault, Stefan (FE 7)- 3.8
Flavia (FE 13)- 3.8
Elena (G2)- 3.8
Grenseal, Sheena (S1)- 3.8
Momo (BoF 3)- 3.75
Olifen (EP)- 3.75
Rosa (FF4:TAY)- 3.75
Rebecca (FE 7)- 3.75
Agate, Kloe (LoH: TitS)- 3.75
Sara (BoD7)- 3.7
Porom, Tsukinowa, Ursula (FF4:TAY)- 3.7
Matthew (FE 7)- 3.7
Gaius (FE 13)- 3.7
TENGAAR (S2)- 3.7
Ares (EP)- 3.65
Sazh (FF 13)- 3.65
THARJA (FE 13)- 3.65
ALFINA (G3)- 3.65
JOSHUA (LoH: TitS)- 3.65
Tolten (LO)- 3.65
Puniyo (MK 2)- 3.65
Cecil (FF4:TAY)- 3.6
Skrimir, Ulki (FE 10)- 3.6
Cordelia (FE 13)- 3.6
Kaim (LO)- 3.6
CAMUS (S1)- 3.6
Sumia (FE 13)- 3.55
Bartolomeo (JDA)- 3.55
Alen (S1)- 3.55
CHOAS (XS 1)- 3.55
Raki (EP)- 3.5
Mia, Rolf, Sain, Serra (FE 7)- 3.5
Chereche (FE 13)- 3.5
Luciola (LoH: TitS 2)- 3.5
Seth (LO)- 3.5
Pepperoni (MK 2)- 3.5
Cliff, Peppita (SO 3)- 3.5
Killey, Millie (S2)- 3.5
MARIETTA (AI)- 3.45
Nina, Rand (BoF 2)- 3.45
Iria (Brig)- 3.45
Oengus (CoL)- 3.45
Rydia (FF4:TAY)- 3.45
Hope, Lightning (FF 13)- 3.45
Canas (FE 7), Tauroneo (FE 13)- 3.45
Ulrika (MK 2)- 3.45
Sophia (SO 3)- 3.45
Cleo, Ronnie (S1), Valeria (S2)- 3.45
Alexei, Retica (EP)- 3.4
Izayoi (FF4:TAY)- 3.4
Fiora, Nephenee, Nealuchi (FE 10), Basilio (FE 13)- 3.4
La Hire (JDA)- 3.4
Zane (LoH: TitS)- 3.4
Crowley, Ein Gide, Valeria (S1), BOB (S2)- 3.4
Ziggy (XS 1)- 3.4
LITA (AI)- 3.35
Gekkou, LEONORA (FF4:TAY)- 3.35
Boyd, Edward, Haar, Micaiah, Soren, Volug, Zihark (FE 10)- 3.35
Vaike, Robin (FE 13)- 3.35
Mirage (SO 3)- 3.35
Long Chan Chan, Nina (S2)- 3.35
Dryst, Zemeckis, Brangien, Shiraha (Brig)- 3.3
Brom, Calill, Dart, Gareth, Mordecai, Raven, Titania (FE 10)- 3.3
Anna, Nowi, Sully (FE 13)- 3.3
Roger- 3.3 (JDA)
Jansen, Sed (LO)- 3.3
SONYA (S1), Luc, Stallion (S2)- 3.3
Delsus (AI)- 3.25
Aurora (CoL)- 3.25 (2.75 w/o Iggy)
Marie (EP)- 3.25
Yang, Palom (FF4:TAY)- 3.25
Danved, Jill, Kent, Volke (FE 10)- 3.25
Gregor, Kellam (FE 13)- 3.25
TIO (G2)- 3.25
Kasumi (S1)- 3.25
Vaynard, Dinadin, Bahamut, Escalados, Isfas, Batercus, Merriott, Seraph (Brig)- 3.2
Ashley (EP)- 3.2
Jaffar, Janaff, Kieran, Kurthnaga, Oswin, Ranulf (FE 10)- 3.2
Henry (FE 13)- 3.2
Bertrand (JDA)- 3.2
MACK (LO)- 3.2
Scherazad (LoH: TitS)- 3.2
NORAH (CoL)- 3.2
HELLION (S1), Anita, Georg (S2)- 3.2
DEM (BoD7)- 3.15
Cador, Lance (Brig)- 3.15
Malakov, Pent, Rath, Renning (FE 7), Miriel (FE 13)- 3.15
GLYNNE, LOGUE, REYNA (EP)- 3.15
Miriel (FE 13)- 3.15
Ryudo (G2)- 3.15
Roger (SO 3)- 3.15
Gijimu, Kasumi, Sheena (S2)- 3.15
Jr (XS 1)- 3.15
BOW (BoF 2)- 3.1
Finn (CoL)- 3.1
Zangetsu (FF4:TAY)- 3.1
Nolan (FE 10), Stahl (FE 13)- 3.1
Roan (G2)- 3.1
Colet (JDA)- 3.1
Yun (MK 2)- 3.1
Chloe- 3.05
Frank- 3.05
Esmeree, Paternus- 3.05
Erk, Heath, Kyza, Lethe, Louise, Lowen, Oscar- 3.05
Gilles- 3.05 (JDA)
STEN (BoF 2)- 3
Tiamat, Pegasus (Brig)- 3
Hawkeye, Vaida (FE 7), Lyre, Tanith (FE 10)- 3
Olivier (LoH: TitS)- 3
Goto (MK 2)- 3
RICARDO (SH 3)- 3
HIX, Shin (S2)- 3
Fafnir (Brig), Phoenix, Salamander (Brig)- 2.95
Bastian (FE 10)- 2.95
ERIK (BoD7)- 2.9
CAI, LYONESSE, Holygriff (Brig)- 2.9
GEN (CoL)- 2.9
VIVIAN (EP)- 2.9
Bartre, Fiona, Priscilla, Wil (FE 7), Ilyana, Marcia (FE 10), Rickon, Virion (FE 13)- 2.9
DAHNA (G3)- 2.9
JEANNE, RICHARD (JDA)- 2.9
HUMPHREY, KAHN, LO WEN, Pesmerga, Wakaba (S2)- 2.9
Lita (BoD7)- 2.85
Lecarra (Brig)- 2.85
RUBELLA, Robert (CoL)- 2.85
Komori (EP)- 2.85
Isadora (FE 7)- 2.85
Mareg (G2)- 2.85
Clive, KIRKUS, PAHN, Tai Ho, Yam Koo (S1), Clive, RINA (S2)- 2.85
Momo (XS 1)- 2.85
Katt (BoF 2)- 2.8
Ming, Sarah (LO)- 2.8
LILY (MK 2)- 2.8
MAO, NATAN (SH 3)- 2.8
Maneater, Vampire Lord (Brig)- 2.8
Lucia, Sothe, Heather, Vika- 2.8
Marcel (JDA)- 2.8
NINA (BoF 3)- 2.75
STEIN (EP)- 2.75
Bilcock, Fenrir, High Centaur, Titan (Brig)- 2.75
Harley (FF4:TAY)- 2.75
Lucius (FE 7), Geoffrey, Mist, Muarim, Sigrun (FE 10)- 2.75
Cuisses (JDA)- 2.75
Adray (SO 3)- 2.75
FUKIEN, Futch, Lepant, LUC (S1), Nanami, Tai Ho (S2)- 2.75
Spar (BoF 2)- 2.7
Peco (BoF 3)- 2.7
Rose (JDA)- 2.7
Kuromini (S1), Lorelai (S2)- 2.7
Gish, Loufal, Meltorfas, Lizard Guard, Poseidon, Satan (Brig)- 2.65
Milich, Pesmerga (S1), VINCENT (S2)- 2.65
Millia, Millet, Dao (Brig)- 2.6
Tristis (CoL)- 2.6
Cid (FF4:TAY)- 2.6
IRINA, LEVATTE, VELNOR (EP)- 2.6
Nasir (FE 10?)- 2.65
Dorcas (FE 7)- 2.6
TITA (LoH: TitS)- 2.6
Kasim, Milia (S1), Koyu (S2)- 2.6
Eliwood (FE 7)- 2.55
Humphrey, Sylvina (S1), Kinnison (S2)- 2.55
COOKE (LO), Filo, Bronze Golem (Brig), Renault (FE 7), Meg, Oliver, Sanaki (FE 10), Jean, Beatrix, Claire (JDA), Tsai, Viktor (S2)- 2.5
Gremio, Krin (S1), Miklotov (S2)- 2.45
Morholt (Brig), Yuri (EP), Leonardo (FE 10), Libra (FE 13), Futch (S2)- 2.4
Oulan (S2)- 2.35
Zerafin (Brig), Astrid (FE 10)- 2.3
Garr (BoF 3), Death Needle (Brig), Nena (EP), Edward (FF4:TAY), Lissa (FE 13), Rikumaru (S2)- 2.25
Aran (FE 10), Chaco, Eilie, Shiro(S2)- 2.2
Brina (FF4:TAY), Rhys (FE 10), Amada (S1), Gabocha, Gengen (S2)- 2.15
Karen (S2)- 2.1
Freed (S2)- 2.05
Calca (FF4:TAY), Ena, Laura, Tormod (FE 10), Frederick, Donnel, Olivia (FE 13), Bolgan, Sid, Viki (S2)- 2
Fairy (Brig), Mukumuku (S1)- 1
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Cosmic Star Heroine
In doing these, I found myself kind of tempted to compile all data for damage and speed data for all DL characters in a database because many CSH characters are just checking whether someone has done sufficient damages in a set number of turns.
Note: Average Cunning is 56. Although I don't really have a basis for what effect this has on status resistance, so I'm just going to assume a modest subtractive reduction of Cunning-56/4 just to create some baseline since the effect in game was probably pretty muted (status that I noticed at least often tended to be turn 1 on high Cunning PCs)
Kill Point: ~12,700/12,309 (Dave can get more damage than in topic I believe. First is allowing the Enviro-Hack, second isn't)
It's possible that I'm underrating the practical effect of Desperation strategically.
Alyssa- 4.75. Nasty turn 2 damage (~2.2 ITD PC HP) and Desperation's existance means that slow OHKOs or quick 2HKOs won't cut it (and will actually increase her damage to around 2.94 PC HP). She doesn't like massive HP (unless they can't power through a Heroine Aura defense that lasts until turn 5 Smash (best bet is probably Heroine Aura->Defend->Heroine Aura->All-Out->Data Storm) or potentially dispel or high class universal evade. 8% Status Res or the Excalibo status immunity options at least might net her a few extra wins here and there. Clear Godlike, but has enough ways to be foiled
Other Notes
Turn 2- All-Out ->Data Storm. 620 * 3.15 * 2 * 3 * 2 * 1.5 = 35,154
Turn 2- Heroine Aura->Data Storm- 620 * 1.5 * 2 * 2* 3 = 11,160
Excalibo Option (Status Immunity)
Turn 2- All-Out->Data Storm. ~ 620 * 2.5 * 1.65 * 1.65 * 3 = 12,659 (Actually higher than this since this is using the lower baseline stats on Heroine Bo)
Chahn- 2.95. Can build to 84% shot on turn 7 (97% without Silver Bullets in play). So effectively, if she is 3HKOed, she can string along well enough until then (minus any doubles potentially, although she can sub out Silver Bullet for Echo). She can deal with slower 2HKOers if they are a bit frail (barring doubling). Even low grade status may work against her well enoug, as well as other healers who have average PDur (even without super great healing, as long as its as somewhat spammable) and spiky damage dealers. Healing is generally full until getting rid of style. Interesting Light, but I don't think she quite has the punch to get any higher (could b
-->Potential Best Strategy (Maximizing kill speed while keeping healed at least every other turn)
-->Unleash->Heal->Sniper (4548 ITD Damage)->Heal->Silver Bullets->Revive->Orbital Burst (11899)
Always heal until damage due to being 2HKOed by a slower enemy
-->Unleash->Heal->Heal->Heal->Echo->Revive->Orbital Burst (10347)
Dave- 2.8. So, my gut reaction right now is not to allow Enviro-Hack, since it's too swingy. If you allow it, Dave's Eco Specs boost it 50% (so his best damage and allows him to use a move afterward if that's ever relevant). Without it, Dave has almost exactly PC HP on turn 3. It's effectively ITD (or actually ITD? Either way, I don't think the defense stat effects it?), but the durability is painful. I could be underrating this in practice, since Desperation offsets his poor durability to a degree that does usually make him see turn 3 in Light.
-->Enviro-Hack~14000 (~561 (Base Pierce Damage) * 3.75 (Null's mult) * 1.7 (Cheat Code) * 2 (Hyper Mode) * 2 (Has 100 Style)).
-->Null- 12,398 (561 * 3.25 * 2 * 1.7 * 2) Frail average speed 3HKO that ever so barely KOs (so above average HP will kill it). But if he hits desperation turn 3, then he does 13,948 (at least giving him a little clearance).
Sue- 3.45. 1.8 PC HP Physical Damage Turn 3 (1.54 In Desperate). The best of the characters banking on the turn 3 Burst OHKO with the best damage and best durability/status res combo
-->If uses Hyper+ on turn 3, will go into Hyper but will maintain until 4th turn
-->If knocked into Desperation on 3rd turn, he does 1.55 * 1.55 * 2.5 * 4 * 1.5 * 530 = 19099
Lauren- 2.65. Don't knock her into Desperation in Hyper Mode turn 4 (or actually longer, since she can retime her Hyper modes), or eat about 65% PC HP as a finisher. I'll be charitable and assume for now that she can land Poison on turn 1; testing Charm and Stun at end game didn't seem to be hitting if used on Turn 2 (or even Hyper Mode in turn 1; at least Poison can be AoE and has a better base multiplier). If they worked, she'd be a lot pretty since she could rob enemy turns and manipulate things better. As is...she attempts to 4/5HKO.
Turn 4 Desperation (No Status): 12639; 3375 (Opening Slash)->1028 (Tornado)->888 (Assa)->7388 (Desperate Stab)
Turn 4 Desperation (Poison Status Hits Turn 1)- ~12600; 3375 (Opening Slash)->0 (Plague)->1775 (Assa)->3550 (Assa)->7388 (Desperate Stab) (Poison strategy gets better when the Desperation comes on a later turn)
Also, she wishes so badly that using Spotlight in Desperation mode would be effective with Desperation Slash (she technically dies after using Spotlight and has 0 HP and Style, but you can still use a move- but she's no longer in desperation).
Finn- 4.1. The defense strategy works pretty well, although fire-resistant healers make him sad. If he needs to stay under Defensive Stance all the time, he'll kill average in 6 hits. If he faces someone who halves Fire, that probably gets pushed out to 8-9HKO. The best non-fire damage he can do about 25% PC HP (so feels like a Heavy that nulls Fire should eventually get sufficient damage to kill him). Could be possible that some non-Fire resistant healers might also get to the point where damage spikes can take Finn out too.
X'Torv- 4.35. Can't even OHKO him thanks to Paw Claws->Rebirth. Rebirth is cute- Activates even with multiple deaths, so you can't kill him with damage for 6 turns once he gets it up. Assuming Rebith turn 1, he does 1.7 PC HP Physical Damage by Turn 5 and about 1.25 on turn 5. While plenty of things foil this, this seems like there are even a fewer Godlikes he could poach with this (including a number of the PC ones who rely on big damage without a status backup). The strategy certainly has it's flaws (evaders, statusers), it's decently potent
Clarke- Limiter Release guarantees that he lives through Self Destruct (It doesn't, so he better kill)? Also, kill him with fire, no rank.
Psybe- 3.15. 1.7 PC HP Magic Damage turn 3 (~1.35 in Desperation). Poor PDur (at least he can get it effectively above 0.8 with Rebirth Song). Still Desperation feels potent enough that he might just be a tad too much for light.
Orson- 3.3. 1.3 PC HP Magic Damage turn 3! Also, might Elemental resists give him a few more matches and his damage will get a few random upward spikes hitting elemental weaknesses. Better concrete durability than Psybe and Desperation just makes his damage better (and I feel like they'll often be in Desperation turn 3).
In case it ever comes up, the legal starting shields:
Chahn- Absorb Shield
Alyssa- Adventurer
Dave- Dark
Sue- Protector
Finn- Void
Lauren- Song
X'Torv- Mercenary
Arete- Insight
Clark- Groove
Psybe- Ruin
Orson- Life
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Cosmic Star Heroine
In doing these, I found myself kind of tempted to compile all data for damage and speed data for all DL characters in a database because many CSH characters are just checking whether someone has done sufficient damages in a set number of turns.
If you do this, please share. I have been thinking about throwing together a for-fun RPGmaker game based on DL-like stats and that would cut down on a lot of work for me.
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Note: In terms of balancing effects with my the prorations, I'm scaling down the effects of cast wide equip based status blockers (now halving the effect; unique equips or innate resistance is unchanged). The flip is that instead of letting an accessory cover just 1 status, I'll allow up to 2 (if such an accessory provides). Mentioning it here since the cast has a lot of status blocking.
Note 2: I allow 115 CP at the start of battle. This opens up a number of options
Rean- 4.55. Valimar + Delay Strategy of Doom should be sufficient to swing low Godlike (not sure either one alone is though). Valimar can deal a good chunk of PCs and frailer bosses that Rean outspeeds, but still feels like there might be too many Heavies that can take him (issues with evasion, tanky healers, physical tanks). Delay strategy helps cover at least cover a few gaps.
Alisa- 4.9. Angel allows her to unleash 1.36 PC HP magic damage without fail. Against faster 2HKOers, that often jumps to 2.45 (or even higher) PC HP. Even double acting doesn't stop her from inserting an SCraft even if the first attack kills her. Doesn't really the muster to go toe to toe with the true top of Godlike tanks or extreme magic tanks.
Alfin- 4.15. OHKO her, kill her EP or CP, status her out in a turn (hard thanks to blockers), just massively tank magic or be a boss for the most part (since I'm not really seeing them get cancelled to death unless they are explicitly hittable by something similar in game or unless their general statusability has some very, very large holes). Her delay move is not subject to evasion (or at least CS 2 evasion). Nasty! She certainly loves my views where I allow an extra Impede for her because she strategy becomes far chancier without it.
Angelica- 4. In the DL, she'll murder those with marginal damage (takes about 70% PC HP to 2HKO her, 58% to 3HKO, and 49% to 4HKO and she has Insight to slow down those who rely on evadable physicals). My adjustments make her Faint move borderline turn 1 (She's a perfect example of why I like factoring in boost for MT in my status calculations, because her Faint move is so useless in game), so there's some use (but not super great). Feels like the package overall is enough for Heavy, although her overall strategies with the Str boosting, Insight and Stun all feel like worse versions of Sara's (the one advantage being the damage cut, but still worse damage off slower speed hitting the 3 turn mark).
Claire- 4.2. Quite solid turn 1 Freeze, fast turn 2 ID, fast healing with items that doesn't eat into her EP pool. Can't be spoiled by evasion.
Elise- 4. 84% PC HP Turn 2 Damage at 99% speed or 1.1 PC HP damage at 110% speed turn 3. Freeze allows her to deal with healers (although maybe not as many in Heavy), and Athelas + short Water recharge means that she can try healing her way out of pressure situations (it's only 1/2! of a normal turn length). Not of a fan of Water resistance (especially if paired with Dark resistance).
Elliot- 4. Great healing (and the speed bump is nice) complemented by 20% regen at start. Need about 65% Physical Damage or 72% Magical to 2HKO him through Attack Down (if faster), so he can at least somewhat control damage in Middle and some Heavy fights. Confuse can be nasty as well. Will struggle against some healers more than other CS 2 Heavies though.
Emma- 3.55. 115% PC HP 2 Turn Damage at 85% Speed or 154% PC HP 3 Turn Damage at 93% Speed. Deals with mages and healers well enough, but any passable Middle fighter will likely take her out. No worries about being elementally spoiled. The Confuse loop that the EP regen nabs a few extra wins since it can shut down a fair number of PCs with its speed boost (giving Emma an above average speed turn 2).
Fie- 4. Weird. Her strategies synthesize well enough to get her into Heavy, but she's spoilable. Resisting ID hurts her pretty badly; even resisting it 25% makes Faint fall to turn 3 for me (really hampering it's usefulness). Magic ID at least helps plug the holes caused by evasion. If she needs to manage damage, she can kill average around turn 2.8 (against someone with above average durability or resisting Dark damage though, that gets pretty sad). Her own evasion is probably most useful for letting her live until Magic ID as she generally wants to rush.
Gaius- 3.2. Spoiling evadable physicals is nice, although his strategy to nowhere as thorough as Kimahri's. Against ITE or magic, Gaius struggles massively (80% PC HP damage on turn 3 at 96% Speed, effective turn 5 to actually kill average), and even some healers may be able to take Gaius out through the evade since they can just wait for him to run out of EP.
Jusis- 3.85. Scrapes a 2HKO off about 108% speed (And can trade speed for damage in a variety of ways there, and there's a chance of a crit anyways), a massive 3HKO (almost 2 PC HP at 110% speed) + decent Seal. For all that I would have been certain I would have found him to be a Heavy, having gone through it I'm not as sure, but I feel like he's just on the higher side of the border thanks to Seal.
Laura- 3.65. 92% Turn 1 Damage (slow though), a few decent slow 2HKO options, an evade strategy, and Mute (although given her damage punch, not sure the last two strategies will get much play). A very good Middle, but sadly not enough for Heavy. Although she starts with Impassion, she doesn't really have any strategies where it will be useful.
Machias- 3.4. Damage Reduction + Regen works so well in Middle. Even people who would do 80% damage to Machias 4HKO, giving him time to often land a fatal Petrify. If you resist Petrify and have healing, he'll be more fearful, but he can still reapply Earth Pulse if an enemy's damage is too anemic.
Millium- 4. Enemies essentially lose their first turn, effectively giving her Turn 3 Stone at 90% Speed, 85-90% Damage turn 1 damage (albeit very slow), borderline 2HKOing at just a hair under average speed, or effectively Turn 1 Faint that leads to nasty damage (meaning that she can take out some enemies without ever taking damage). For all that she's pretty unimpressive in game, her strategies synthesize well. Not a fan of status resistance or healers though, and I could be overrating her a little (considering it takes so little to bump her Stun to turn 2).
Sara- 4.1. Her strategy options are surprisingly nuanced thanks to the amazing Lightning Charge and her amazing SCraft (second best in the DL for sure; flip side: strong argument for the worst DL MQ). If her enemy will be hit by Faint, Her SCraft can be deployed at many different times to create a ton of options (including effectively killer damage that activates turn 1 around 79% Speed). If Faint has no use, she can still use Lightning Charge to give her a great 3HKO (1.25 PC HP at 112% Speed) while making her simaltaneously laugh at evadable physicals. She also has solid Seal and Attack Down options just to make physicals even worse. Not a fan of durable mages, boss ITE, or Fire and Wind resistance.
Sharon- 4.45. And here's the best DL SCraft. Near initiative ID. And against ID resistance, I'll still at least see Nightmare hitting (Sharon can then set up for a 45000 damage crit). Over 50% Evade + Trails status resistance both help her deal with a number of bosses, but not enough for me to say that she feels like a true Godlike. Not far off though.
Toval- 3.9 94% PC HP 2 Turn Damage at 97% Speed or 89% PC HP at 103% Speed. 115% PC HP Turn 3 DAmage at 110% Speed. Damage options are more Middle, but the 50% MEvade, Turn 1 Seal and Turn 1 Mute give him potential spoiling options in Heavy. Not a fan of joint Wind and Holy resistance
Towa- 3.15. 87% PC HP Turn 2 at 80% Speed, 114% Turn 3 at 83% Speed. Tereal being a short turn is potentially one saving grace (only takes up 80% a turn). Freeze is a long wait to kick in (Turn 3 at ~90% Speed). Tearal is enough to get her to Middle, but she struggles there mightily (and I could be overrating her). Not a fan of joint Water and Earth resistance
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Note: In terms of balancing effects with my the prorations, I'm scaling down the effects of cast wide equip based status blockers (now halving the effect; unique equips or innate resistance is unchanged). The flip is that instead of letting an accessory cover just 1 status, I'll allow up to 2 (if such an accessory provides). Mentioning it here since the cast has a lot of status blocking.
I dunno about this. Obviously you should run with whatever you feel is best, but it's not really true-to-the-game IMO, where flat immunity is just that: immunity. An opponent can't keep trying one status to get through, you have a sure wall against it. This is important since enemies really do have some quite nasty statuses if you let them live: Nightmare, Vanish, Freeze, Confuse, etc. If you immune it, they're just out of business.
Additionally, this is a game where by endgame you'll have both a Grail Locket and a Lionheart Medal, meaning you can make 2 party members flat status immune. Many of the best stat endgame accessories, e.g. Abyss Shadow / Evergreen / Passionate Rogue / Still Blue, also pack a bunch of status immunities for free. (Okay, Deep Ocher too, but the stats on it suck.) So this is a cast that is very good against status, and being good is relevant if you decide to YOLO neglect status immunity.
If you feel like this should be "nerfed" some in the DL, I'd recommend just being a hardass about "status equivalencies" for similar statuses, or only letting 1 accessory slot be used for the purpose on the assumption that a good non-status accessory is there - e.g. True Gladiator Belt, Arch Tyrant Badge, etc.
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The cast is still better than nearly any other cast in the DL with status resistance. I already changed accessories in the DL versus in game because I only allowed non-unique accessories to block 1 status in the DL, so now allowing 2 is actually a step up in that regards. It's all about trying to find a balance that I feel can fairly weigh both attackers and defenders in context of my out there status scaling.
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Since I've recently beat FFT:WoTL (Rankings are still for original FFT)
My Scaling gives Shield Users about 27% Evade or 38% Mevade (or wrecking Fire or Ice)
Ramza- 3.45. Scrapes a 3HKO at default (or 4HKO magic), ~115% Speed, and shields are cool. A few extra equips round him out well enough plus a method to deal with low damage healers
Mustadio- He has turn 1 Paralysis to me! Granted, that only buys him about 2.5 turns and he 6HKOs. Not caring about PA does give a little more flexibility in equip trade offs. 2.65
Agrias- Averagish damage, 84% speed, but Shields are awesome. Having some status fall on turn 2 to me (Silence, Confuse) is a nice bonus as well and great synergy with Shields. 3.55
Rafa- 80% HP, relies on a 4HKO that also heals her for 44% of her HP (but really 63% of HP and it hits 70% of th time, so it's a questionable long term strat against a 2HKO). Evade is a bit above average, but not enough to matter. Granted, a lot of Light doesn't have average damage, so 2.7.
Malak- Better HP than Rafa and better speed, and nearly halves Magic. 6HKO instead of 4HKO, but he's so much harder to actually 2HKO (unless barring someone with bad accuracy perhaps) that it's a winning trade. 2.85
Beowulf- Strong turn 1 status+Shields+Drain is a solid combo. 4.1
Reis- What were they thinking? 2.4
Worker 8- 4.8. 1.7 Pdur+Magic Immunity+Nulls most Elements+Nulls most status. Can't deal with a lot of Godlike physicals, but a very good spoiler
Cid- 5. Option for OHKO damage, blistering speed, draining, Shields
Meliadoul- 1.6 Pdur+Weapon Destroying. I don't give Armor destroying a lot of credit (besides getting rid of effects of making healing worse), but she does borderline 2HKO for me. 3.95
Cloud- 3.9. He'll get a fatal status on turn 1 to me (albeit withs some delay).
Delita- Hey, at least WotL makes him feel justifiable as an endgame temp. Low 2HKO (no Bracer), Shields, a bit slow. 3.75
Olan- Time Stop is now turn 1 to me. The duration is short, but he can always reapply (since it's like 75% base hit rate to me) + his own blistering speed really helps there. 3.2.
Alma- So, no physical attack to me (Also not sure what her legal equips are), but at least Ultima is legal. At least a low 2HKO though and MBarrier is great. Hates healers with a burning passion. 3.4.
Squire- 2.6
Chemist- 2.95. Auto Potion is great in Light, but the damage is lacking. Probably a Middle if they could equip robes.
Knight- Breaks are turn 1 to me (and Weapon Break and Magic Break can both be decently effective against specific duellers), the Evade is solid. Probably enough to swing low Middle. 3.15
Archer- 2.8
Monk- 2.65
Priest- Fails against other Healers or Holy res. Not difficult to 2HKO first anyways. 2.9
Wizard- 3.5. OHKO damage, but 67% HP, but can trade some damage for notably more HP
Time Mage- Can get close to an OHKO with 67% HP, making her an inferior Wizard in a slugfest. However, Reflect and Slow close the gap a little. 3.4
Summoner- Worse damage than the above two classes. However, as long as she isn't doubled, turtling with Golem will work against physicals, and she doesn't have the potential MP woes of the above classes. Also Silence and Reflect to give her anti-magic options. 3.55
Thief- Can't seduce the same sex, but perfectly willing to seduce a pig or a tree or a corpse. This is to say that I don't really respect Steal Heart too much (turn 3 I guess). 2.6
Mediator- Slightly fast 3 turn status kill. 3.05
Oracle- 3.4. A few turn 1 statuses, turn 2 fatal status, Defense Up
Geomancer- Low 2HKO, above average speed, Shields. 3.75 and I could be underrating a little
Lancer- Basically see above, with more HP, but spoiled by enemies just moving out of the way. 3.45
Samurai- Slow, very borderline 2HKO with some magic backup. Kiyomori does help against slower enemies. Blade Grasp is awesome though. 3.65
Ninja- Fast with a solid 2HKO that even can get some status. 4
Calculator- Damage Split is a lifesaver with that speed since it means that an enemy will likely need over 45% PC HP (still not a lot) to kill her through a double. Silence, Sleep and Paralysis are turn 1 for me- not like Calc can really take much advantage with that speed. Probably scrapes into Middle since a lot of Lights that 2HKO even through a double won't be fast enough to 3-2 her (and might be 2HKOed by Holy). 3.1
Bard- 2.7
Dancer- Well, Nameless Dance is turn 1 to me. I'll likely see about the 5th most useful status hitting (with is either Confuse or Silence), so she can deal with some mages. 2.6
Mime- 2.4
Alma/Gaff/Algus- Not touching
And the bosses:
Izlude- Low Heavy? I need to nail down his HP, but he has so much durability than later bosses (not that means much) and that's before considering that he's not a complete moron regarding field setup (aka: he might actually be worth of some actual support credit)
Wiegraf- Low Heavy?
Lede/Celia- Need to get an exact read on their speeds. They'll basically never take a hit (they basically were part of a triple psuedo assassination mission, which is a great way for me to completely disrespect their HP), so their exact speed becomes very relevant
Once Orlandu joins, it becomes exceedingly difficult to respect any boss HP
Elmdor- 0.55 PC HP, 3HKO Magic or Physical, Blade Grasp+43% Evade on Top of that, tad fast. Well, shuts down evadable physicals hard, otherwise he has some large problems unless he can 2HKO more quickly. 3.35
Dycedarg- Effectively near PC HP with the Defense Ups baked in. Averagish speed, 50% MEvade, 2HKO. 3.65
Adramelk- 0.5 PC HP. Starts at 0 CT when most of the PCs don't? That's potentially really fatal. If that's right, he might even be a Light. Not giving him a ranking since I'm not sure on that.
Vormav- LOL. Wow, most bosses being assassin missions already makes their HP somewhat suspect, but an this is effectively an assassination mission where knocking literally any of the targets to low HP ends the match? 0.17 PC HP, averagish speed. Might spoil some fighters with Evade and Counter, but 2.7. Yikes.
Zalbag- 0.4 PC HP. Decent speed does allow him to open with a nasty Ruin, but the HP is so poor that even breaking someone's main attack stat twice may still result in his loss since he'll need 3 turns of attacking to kill. Uh...3? Lower?
Rofel- 0.625 PC HP. 1.8 Pdur+Evade+Weapon Destruction+Turn 1 Silence. Could this be enough to scrape Heavy? 3.85
Kletian- 0.25 PC HP. 2.25
Balk- 0.8 PC HP. Finally someone who didn't completely fail at orienting himself terrain-wise! Fast ITE 3HKO, albeit Lightning. 3.35
Hashmalum- Do you block Stop? You win! Otherwise, you lose! 4.25.
Altima- About PC HP between both forms. Starts slow, so form 1 is generally just going to be killed. One turn in form 2 can deal with the MP reliant (assuming they don't have high MDef) or get some lucky status. Struggles to win on damage in Heavy. Grand Cross will likely hit a semi-useful status (since Petrify, Frog or Sleep is enough to mess someone up), so 4 based on just that. Wishes she could just start in form 2.
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I'm not sure what you're doing there with your boss ratings? Why are their durabilities so low?
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I'm not sure why you think those are low? Later FFT bosses die really fast. I don't know exactly what scaling Dhyer uses but "dies in 2 attacks + doesn't have worthwhile support credit = 0.25 PCHP" would be consistent with some views. Kletian is just awful, and bosses like Rofel and Elmdor rely on spoiling to get things done (although in Rofel's case the spoiling is pretty good, he went on good runs in Heavy with that statline so 3.85 is definitely selling him short).
PCHP does seem too low for Altima to me though, she's equal to over 10 Kletians!
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PCHP does seem too low for Altima to me though, she's equal to over 10 Kletians!
I like this statement since it sounds impressive until you remember that it's like saying someone is equal to over 20 Jeremys
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Altima is held back by losing the support on form 2. If she kept it, it would definitely be a bit higher. Practical support credit also factors in (hence why Balk's HP is so much higher. His support is the same technically, but much better in practice). All the bosses would be a bit higher, if they weren't assassination missions (or worse in Vormav's case).
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I'm curious about the math behind 'support credit', I guess?
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The basic concept is that boss HP is often scaled by how many shots of average damage they need to be defeated. The methods vary, but one of the simplest is "a boss who takes 10 hits to die = 1PCHP" (not the one either I or Dhyer use, I believe, but a good illustration). If you apply this to a game like FFT you'll notice most bosses end up very fragile indeed. Average damage in-game is hard to pin down, but the DL stat topic is about ~180 for endgame and the in-game version is almost certainly higher due to PC setups being stronger. If we say for illustration's sake that it's 250 then a boss would need 2500 HP to a seen as PCHP. FFT bosses outside Altima don't even come close to this.
However, the main argument against "SRPG bosses die almost instantly" is that they're often decent fights due to having lots of support you need to cut through, giving them more time to show their stuff in-game. So "support credit" means buffing a boss's HP in the DL out of respect for their support. SRPGs are a common reason to do this, but it can occur in non-SRPGs as well (e.g. WA3's team fights). Not everyone gives support credit at all, and there's no agreed on convention of how to do it (I imagine most people probably just use kneejerks), so if you want Dhyer's specifics you'll have to ask him.
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Well PCHP for Altima's HP total would need an average of ~360 damage under standard interps (would need to be higher for mine and higher still for elfboy's) which seems to me like it'd require a high level of holisitc disrepect but not to an -especially- unreasonable degree, I'd think? I don't see her as quite that low myself, but honestly I may be more surprised at Kletian being seen as 0.25 PCHP then...
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I'm a bit harder on Altima because high HP in FFT often means a chance for your damage to spike with mage classes.
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Freelancer: Light. The damage is too bad for anything else.
Wizard: Heavy (Edit: Yeah Godlike is a better place for initiative OHKO).. Initiative OHKO, but poor durability.
Charioteer: Heavy/Godlike? Such flexibility with speed/damage/durability
Fencer: Heavy. The damage isn't fantastic but the durability will be good enough to wall some enemy damage.
Bishop: Light. Terrible damage... but at least the Mdef is ridiculously amazing!
Astrologian: Heavy in my estimation of the durability post buffing.
Catmancer: Heavy or Godlike depending on whether I allow Catnips or not.
Thief: Heavy/Godlike. The ridiculous TB speed ITD overkill is hard to argue with unless a boss is involved.
Red Mage: Heavy/Godlike due to the damage?
Swordmaster: Light. Nothing to see here.
Summoner: Middle? The durability and speed combo is terrible but healing amd damage.
Hawkeye? Middle but a good one? Might one rpund but if not is in a bad spot.
Patissier: term. I guess I allow the status so to Heavy/Godlike he goes.
White Mage: Middle? The Holy barrage isn't bad but there isn't anything else.
Merchant: Heavy. Fast ITD overkillish damage!
Black Mage. Heavy. Solid ITD overkill blitz.
Knight: Heavy/Godlike with the truly insane def/mdef making it almost unkillable.
Exorcist: Godlike? Auto Undo and Erradicate is a lot to deal with. Really need to one round or status to win, and that isn't that easy for most below Godlike.
Performer: Light. Better than before but still not great at damage even with the buffed up durability.
Pirate: Heavy? The durability after debuffing enemy attack is fantastic. And then Adrenaline exists too.
Valkyrie: Light. The lack of damage burns.
Monk: Heavy? Great ITD and physical one rounding but things faster than him will make him regret existing with that durability.
Time Mage: Heavy/Godlike. Amazing one-rounding with magic, but not fast and not durable.
Dark Knight: Godlike? Most likely to lay down a lot of damage before going down. 2x PCHP or more.
Guardian: Middle/Heavy? The durability is great but there isn't a ton of damage to go with it.
Kaiser: Godlike. Without status or an OHKO the foe is going to eat the Blinding Light blitz and that can then be followed up with ANOTHER blitz and that won't be good.
Templar: Heavy. The durability is fantastic, and the offense is likely to do the job.
Yokai: Godlike. The elemental damage is likely to KO an enemy after Yokai makes them weak to it. This has the added benefit of strippimg resistances. Good stats otherwise and a few physical options.
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Regarding Wizard, I would be inclined to say that initiative OHKO does not belong in Heavy ever. I'd say this even if the durability were atrocious instead of merely below average.
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Dragon Quest 8 DS:
Guv: Godlike. The initiative monster summoning (twice!) is great. Beyond that he has tons of fullhealing and some options like evade, Spiked Armor, Tension, and Mirror Armor/Shield.
Yangus: Light. His most hyped thing was always the 1/8th (1/16th in practice?) Instant Death. Without it he has... sub-par everything but HP.
Jessica: Heavy. Overly reliant on fire damage, and not super-fast or having a real answer to anyone with fire resistance/immunity unless Bounce walls them, and even those vulnerable can just 2HKO her if faster and not OHKO'd. The 70% sleep may be what she wants over Caduceus and MP+100 (settling for MP+50). Really hates Tension making Magic Burst an average-component.
Angelo: Heavy. Decent speed and durability. Options aplenty including accurate matchwinning (basically) status, magic reflection, some evade, Spiked Armor, more fullhealing than you can shake a stick at, and buffing.
Red: High Heavy/Godlike? She's solid enough on durability where she isn't at unusual risk of OHKOs. Beyond that she has tons of fullhealing, 2HKO damage (if you allow her to pay the gold), and some status. Accelerate just puts on a crown on her speed while buffing her evasion too. The speed and fullhealing along with damage are really good, and Fuddle is a great way to screw over PCs.
Morrie: Not as good as one might hope. Slowish, not too durable, and takes 3 turns to kill. He busts healers something fierce, but there is just something missing there. High Light/Low Middle? Seems like he'd lose to an average physical slugger.
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Crono- 2HKOed by 64% Phys or 42% Mag, 140% Speed but hates healers and Lightning res (although actually guess he doesn't so much since Confuse isn't a big damage drop). You'll want to 2HKO him or spoil him (which is not hard in fairness). 3.6
-->DL wise: Should actually lose to Justin (Justin's ID string hits on turn 2 but Crono doesn't have the speed to double) and Neifirst (obviously). Flip side, he now beats Rei to me.
Ayla- 1.41 Pdur, 0.7 Mdur, 112% Speed, 53% Damage (Usable 4 Times), but it's not ITE. Magical backup...is a little questionable to (probably see it as a 75% hit rate; Surround target is not good in a game where you can't move). Borderline H/M. 3.85
-->DL wise: Loses to Cliff (goodbye MP. It's still close since that locks Cliff into lower, slower damage and he's hitting the wrong defense, but his HP keeps him alive)
Kika is razor thin (Ayla barely manages to 2HKO but misses one attack, but Kika barely fails to 2HKO), but Ayla still wins.
Frog- 2HKOed by 60% Phys or 45% Mag, Very low 4HKO (or sad 8HKOish magic damage)+the chance of a low HP limit move, but lots of healing. Doesn't like consistent 2HKOs. 3.3
-->DL wise: Should lose to Tellah (I think)
Lucca- The good: manages to 2HKO with 52% damage. Decent option to get 3 MPdur. the bad: 87% Speed, 67% Pdur, Reliant on Fire, No other real tricks beyond damage. Magespoiler. 2.75.
-->DL wise: Certainly loses to Cray, Rand and Rena.
Eileen becomes close (Physical 4HKOs Lucca, Lucca 3HKOs Eileen, but Eileen can use Copper Flesh to engineer a double- especially since Sleep is turn 2 to me). Zoah is slightly faster on turn 2 and Lucca barely misses 2HKOing him anyways. Tengaar is likely the only win I would agree with now.
Marle- 2HKOed by 30% Phys or 80% Mag. 82% Speed, but can increase that to 145% for 14 turns. Anemic damage (7HKO with best, 9HKO with strategy that doesn't burn MP). Stop is turn 3 to me, but doesn't stack (in fact, semi-protects enemies when it wears off making it that they will get a turn). Really doesn't like other healers.
Against an average speed PC that 2HKOs her:
E, M- Haste, M-Heal, E, M- Heal, E, M-Heal, M-Attack, E, M-Heal, E, M-Heal, E, M-Attack, M-Attack (Stop kicks in; Buys Marle at least 5 turns), Marle Magic x 5->This is sufficient to kill average
Looking at this, she can at least deal with average speed 2HKOs. She's not super hard to OHKO physically, and it does seem like Ice/Water res or evade does mess with this. 3.35
-->DL wise: Should lose to Lilka. Titania is arguable. Adray is likely also a loss due to spells that are so generally so bad DLwise (Healing and Reflection) that I didn't even bother to list them for Adray!
Should have beaten Alma though since Alma faceplants against healing quite hard.
Robo- 1.5 Pdur, 0.7 Mdur, 88% Speed, 87% Damage...if he goes first, otherwise around average physical damage or slightly below average magic damage, 40% Healing. Against physicallers who rely on MP (in Middle), can often outheal. 3.3
-->In the DL: Well, I have less respect for Valvalis evading tech physicals now (and uh...she needs it since her first turn is spent spinning, meaning that Robo has a clean shot). Might lose to Elly and Zidane since I only take half of status res now.
Surprisingly beats Ayame (Shock manages to 2HKO her thanks to lackluster HP, Mdef and Magic res)
Dalton- 83% PC HP, sloooooow. Effectively 2HKOs (with his finisher, although slightly above average Mdur will be push it to a 3HKO effectively). Just...
If he opens with evade first, he'll be hit on the 5th attack (as well as the first attack), so most healers are going to be fine, as is ITE. 3.4
-->In the DL: Loses to Sharon. Bowman is certainly a close match that comes down to interps.
Flea- Calling him around 105% speed. 2 PC HP, cuts damage 20%, but 6HKOs. The status is more of a nuisance than anything else. Sleep and Confusion are both cancelled by damage…although Confusion at least is not cancelled by Poison. Go 3% damage that kicks in once every couple of turns. I guess if you see a Confusion lock and never using any damage at all as a valid strategy then Flea is quite good (hi faster Edgar variant with over double the durability and status immunity), but there’s no way I’m allowing that. 3.2 since the status may as well just not exist, but really just a bad rank since full, true AI = high Heavy off fatal 100% Confusion.
-->In the DL: Loses to Ox
Magus- Great HP (2.75 PC HP), laughs at physicals unless you are Lenneth (although I would probably see “legendary” weapons ignoring this), throws wrenches in several elements as well (and he really wants to be seen to have AI control over it, or else he’s still going to lose to the Rubicants, barring luck). If he fails to spoil (and he often will in Godlike), he’s going to bite it. 4.6 without AI control of Barrier, 4.65 with it. Kind of lean towards the with it only because it’s a balance to the concept of that there are elements that can actually hit him in the DL
(PC Magus has turn 2- barely ID off decent speed and spoils magic. Borderline H/M)
-->In the DL: These all make sense!
Slash- Uh, well that speed is something (like 75%). However, 2.4 PC HP in form 2, halves elements, can gets 40% damage at 1.6 PC HP. Despite not having anywhere near 14 speed, way too much for Light. Speed keeps him in Middle, but even then doesn’t feel that bad (just doesn’t like healers much). 3.5
-->In the DL: May actually beat Ronfar (that’s a horribly painful match, but Ronfar takes over 50 basic attacks to kill Slash. Way to make those 1/8 Counters relevant Ronfar), maybe Seifer (because the great question mark that is Seifer)
Zeal- Gut check that 14 Speed is probably around 110% (in practice due to input delay), but skips the first turn. Average elemental damage, 1.6 PC HP. Certainly a good Heavy, but the limits have some flaws (at least, for those who aren’t finished off by MP killing and can line up turns that they can finish off Zeal before the hands). 4.35
-->In the DL: Probably loses to Jowy (he 2HKOs, but can backload to avoid the limit with ST!), Kharg, Zera (oops so much for that Heavy championship)
Lavos- Central Bit has like just under 0.8 PC HP and skips its first turn. Then the Core drops it’s defenses and spends 3 turns to revive. Skipping that first turn is pretty fatal in Godlike and even for some Heavies (and some will just get their 2nd turn before Central Bit’s first turn even if they don't OHKO). And if they resist Lightning, one Central Bit turn + other part turns likely won’t even kill. 4
-->In the DL: Certainly loses to Riou, Johnny, Claude without thought, likely many of the other matches as well.
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FF7
So 50% starting limit bar and I take the PC kill point based on the highest average (13678)
Cloud- So the Paralysis is still turn 1 to me (like barely- 50.4%), and it's pretty hard to avoid. Feels like a high Middle based on depending on one status that he can't immediately access. 3.55
DL wise: Loses to Bruiser (but I think that was always true)
Aeris- Hmm, what damage to do I hold her too. Maybe I see her 5HKOing, meaning that either Stop or invincible limits give her the time to kill average. 2.8
DL Wise: Ironically may beat Palmer, who is susceptible to Stop and it kills his evasion (although she still may not have the damage with his durability), probably Reis. Virginia is a stall match and probably Miranda and Tempest (the limit strat works)
Barret- Some mage spoiling, and his L3 is at least decently accessible. Feels like close to Cloud in practice (is what I wrote before I realized Barret's ID was turn 3) (less useful L1, but better options otherwise). 3.35
Cait Sith- His status is turn 2 to me (34% for Toad, 40% for Mini), but with his ability to heal for a while it's still viable. However, a constant 2HKO will actually sink him. 3.85
Cid- Average who gets a nasty limit if he takes 63% damage. 3.4
Red- 3.75. Borderline. Average base damage, nasty damage starts at 50% instead of 60%, Lunatic High could also see some use, and unlike Cid/Cloud might get in an extra attack against average speed to help push him over the line.
DL Wise: Beats Toadstool, Arnaud (I think? Seems like Red should okay getting around that evasion with limit and Arnaud is not great at avoiding them)
Tifa- Fast 3HKO. 3.3
DL Wise: Loses to Fred, beats Spar (season 2 for you)
Vincent- Decent enough Light. 2.8
Yuffie- Red trading 10% HP for a healing limit and no magic back up if needed. Think it's a losing trade. 3.65
DL Wise: Not sure she beats Sara, if I don't allow status protection, she doesn't beat Fina and Noa (obviously)
Rufus- I didn't even get notes, but better than the Turks probably!
Palmer- The third best!? ranked FF 7 boss. A 4HKO! Some evade! Above PC HP. 2.75
Jenova- So, probably go off Jenova Life (Death has an argument too, but I'd be a little restrictive on the multi acting which likely won't be kicking in until turn 2 for me, so Death is 4HKOing). Horrible HP (I'm a little nice, but that still means like 0.65 PC HP), great Mdef, 2HKO and fast on the draw. 3.55
-->Nina 1 takes her out pretty easily, as does Emilia (faster 2HKO)
Rude- 2
-->Has DL wins, shouldn't
Reno- If allowed the Gelnika form...he can beat some Lights who are slower (or wait, even non Lights!) or have fail damage. 2.5
-->Has DL wins, shouldn't
Elena- 1.
Hojo- Form 1 gets OHKOed by everything, form 2 has 0.5 PC HP to unleash Sleep->Silence, for 3 has 0.55 PC HP to slowly wear enemies down. Uh...2.6.
Sephiroth- Ah, the big question. Is Sephiroth still Godlike considering that he 3HKOs 2HKOs where the first attack is off 51% accuracy? My gut reaction is yes, just barely. He has a fair amount of PC killing with Paralysis and Frog/Mini, spoils SR physicals, has Wall to pump up the durability. However, he mightily struggles against most Godlike bosses who aren't spoiled (and that's not many). Could honestly be a Heavy
4.60
-->Does beat Ness, Yuna! (He's slightly faster turn 1), Wakka (lol), Lucia, Lambda (I guess?), Magus, Celes
-->Could still beat maybe: Melfice, Albedo
-->Doesn't beat Ryu 3, Zio, Orlandu, Miguel (unless you see Miguel as SR physical), Empyrea (would be SR physical, but she flies and such)
-->May still should have beaten and lost to: Kuja
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FF 13
So, I do use the third damage average (Vanille/Hope in Ravager, but with a 30% damage boost from Commando side effects)
Lightning- 45% Phys Damage, 34% Magic Damage, 40% Healing, Can trade 20% of damage for 20% speed. The 3.45 I gave her initially is a generous (was probably going for 6 ATB bars, so healing is a little worse and I didn't allow Commando boost for Hope/Vanille). 3.3
Sazh- 34% Phys Damage, 27% Mag (Boostable to 47%/38%), 107% HP, Can Throw out 33% Phys/Mag Cut pretty quickly as well. Haste likely only being 127% effect hurts, as does 5 bars (although thinking on it...he probably only ever waits for the first 2 bars to throw out a buff). I think he's a Middle, but not much of one. 3.15. I intially gave him a 3.65...
Snow- 125% HP, 47% Phys Damage, 27% ITD/ITE, 31% Magic (Feral Pride), Questionable Defensive Strat (0.36 damage taken while recovering 20% HP, but makes him slow. If it's 50% speed, that may kill it's use since it's just a stall strategy). Assuming the Defensive strat doesn't really play out, 3.4. Better HP is worth more than Lightning's healing (plus the ITD/ITE option could have some theoretical use). Originally gave him a 3.85 based on the defensive strat
Hope- 73% HP, 31% Magic Damage, 24% ITD/ITE Magic, Basically Full Healing all the time + Can boost damage 40%, boost speed a little and add Protect/Shell (which just put him around PC HP level durability though). 3.7. Don't think it's enough for Heavy with that base HP, but really borderline and could be underrating. Originally gave him a 3.45, but notable improvement
Vanille- Turn 2 Fog, Turn 3 Pain, Can Quadruple (4.44x) her best damage after turn 1, decent healing, 28% Magic (Which she can quadruple coming into turn 2), 20% ITD/ITE damage. While the status isn't super great from the debilitation side, it does build up to massive damage. 3.5. Originally 3.85. Status was better in original rating
Fang- 56% Physical Damage, Turn 2 Fog, Turn 3 Pain, Turn 1 Daze. Low Heavy works. 3.95. Originally 4.15 (more turn 1 status)
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Fire Emblem: Three Houses! Order here is kinda random, starting with lords/good duellers and then working through characters largely by weapon type.
Edelgard has great offence, quads the below average for ORKO damage and doubles average with Silver... but what really sets her above the pack is Raging Storm which basically forces you to decide how much you let legendary weapons be spammed. I lean towards only allowing one use of this per fight, but even with that she still kills average as soon as she gets a turn. Not having uber evade or raw durability means she's far from perfect, but still Heavy/Godllike.
Dimitri is just a big ol' pile of stats. Quads average for just shy of ORKO, has great evade (just at full HP, but that's enough), yon standard Really Good Fire Emblem dueller. Probably belongs in Heavy but he's really scary there if so.
Claude has similar offence to Dimitri, though doesn't have the same Def and relying on Alert Stance for bonus evade isn't as good as Dimitri's personal. On the other hand he has two nasty tricks Dimitri doesn't: Encloser to ruin melee opponents, and Fallen Star to grant him one turn of perfect evade. Also a really scary Heavy.
By comparison Byleth doesn't stand out nearly as much. There's a Nosferatu gimmick build but it's just so undamaging, and the offence is 3RKO unless s/he fights someone slow enough to be doubled by Brave. Still, regen on someone with no problem stats could be worse. Good Middle.
Besides the lords, the best tier of duellers includes Ferdinand, Petra, Felix, and Catherine. Standard FE goodness. All easily double average and have good damage, and evade on top of that. Petra is probably best due to having high damage and Alert Stance. Catherine needs Thunderbrand to reach that offence but isn't too far behind using Brave, while Felix has lower durability and base damage but is even faster and has a regen option for what that's worth. Ferdinand has extra evade at full HP. Heavy one and all.
Ingrid has terrible damage but doubles everything with it, so not so bad in practice! And she has loads of evade and good MDef. Her lance-using buddy Sylvain has a game-plan of 2RKOing your face with Swift Strikes while having only averagish speed but solid def. Seteth has less damage than Sylvain but plays a similar game, but Alert Stance is neat, as is Spear of Assal regen as an option. All three go to Middle, though Ingrid at least seems like a scary one.
Hilda will have you know it's hard to argue with an axe to the face, low 2RKO with Brave Axe with some options to double the slow, and Apocalyptic Flame does only slightly lower damage but the str debuff may let her take an extra hit from physicals, and she's already quite physically tanky. Good Middle. Cyril is faster so he can double average with Silver, but just misses a 2RKO even so due to lower strength; the slow fear him though, and he has Alert Stance. Good Middle which is more than he deserves. Ashe is a worse Hilda in every way: damage, durability, AS, you name it. Probably still swings Low Middle.
The War Masters offer good damage but bad speed. Dedue is the best of them, tieing Edelgard for game-best damage (and at low HP Vengeance pushes him even further) but doing so gets him doubled by average, unfortunately the above average will double him regardless, so Middle. His excellent pdur softens that nicely but magic makes him explode. Raphael is a bit slower so average always doubles him, he's still durable but not as much, Light/Middle. Caspar and Alois both have a bit less damage and considerably less defence but a fair bit more speed, unfortunately their only 2RKO damage still gets them doubled by average, Low Middle.
The archers... Bernadetta just has bad durability and damage both, but she's saved somewhat by Encloser, which once again ruins melee fighters. Vengeance is a cute trick as well I guess. Light/Middle area. Leonie barely quads average with a Brave Bow, which is a low 2RKO, and if she misses that double she has Point-Blank Volley, and unlike Bernie her durability is fine. Middle probably. Shamir is trash, she can Hunter's Volley for low 3HKO off her game-worst durability, Light. And Ignatz has gone swordmaster instead of Archer; he's got Ingrid's damage but his quads are far from ironclad (and if he misses that, the offence is terrible) and the evade is far more fair, but he brings his archery to bear with his 144% silence combat art, so is Middle.
Everything doubles Gilbert. The pdur still wins way too many fights in Light though, so probably Low Middle for the character oft considered the worst in the game. Dies to most Light mages.
Mages are in a rough position generally. The star is Magical Swordgirl Lysithea; dark magic may be DL trash but doubling average with a Levin Sword is certainly legit. Too bad her defence is so bad, but she still makes Middle. Opera stars Dorothea and Manuela try to copy her gameplan, but Dorothea has only averagish speed while Manuela has substantially worse damage. Both have regen at least so are very scary Lights at minimum. Hubert tries to play this game with a magical lance instead, but it gets him doubled by average, oops. Dark magic still sucks, 0.67 pdur sucks, decent Light is all he amounts to. :(
Linhardt can uh... go 5HKO damage with Fire, or use anything else and get doubled by average, regen and Nosferatu can help but only against mages or those with truly bad damage. Mercedes is a bit better on damage/speed at least, but has the same core problems. Annette has considerable more oomph with her legendary magical axe, but otherwise has all of Linhardt's problems, including average doubling her as soon as she uses anything but her weakest tome. Lorenz is more durable than the other nerds but still has their core problems. Lights all around.
Marianne is different enough to be notable. Her Nosferatu is not only a bit more damaging, but she also doesn't get doubled by average with it. The fast double her... flipside she can use it to double the slow, with Darting Blow. Add that on to her regen and she's a pest to kill unless her opponent is speedy. She can also double average with her legendary weapon but the damage isn't anything special. Probably still a Light, but she's actually a good one, maybe a borderliner even.
Flayn is the comedy option. Between Nosferatu, Renewal, and Caduceus, she can regenerate ~70% of her HP every turn! She's also doubled by average and has game-worst pdur, so anyone with 4HKO physicals beats her anyway. Mages explode at least? Too bad they're rare in her division, bad Light. Might be the worst dueller, but that honour probably goes to...
Hanneman is what you get when you take the Linhardt stat build, and give him -9 AS from average with his lightest spell. Oh and he doesn't get Nosferatu or Renewal. He DOES get 100% silence off of... a 22HKO damage combat art. Hope you allow him two Silver Bows! (I do.) But that's still only useful against people who can do literally nothing while silenced. Light/Puny borderline.
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Started this months ago, but had a time crunch then, forgot and didn't finish until now. Unfortunately, in the interim, it appears the DL records links no longer works so can't comment for Edge/Edward/Kain/Twins
FF4
Cecil- Slightly below average damage, decent HP and defense. Tanks against Holy defense badly and he's 88% speed. He's a good Light, but he is a Light. 2.8
in the DL: Probably should have lost every match without thinking
vs TAY: TAY is almost a division jump! And yet, their in game usefulness is completely flipped
Cid- 150% HP, ~75% Speed, ~28% Damage (Thunder at that), but bad Pdef to me (which offsets the HP). Spoils the big 3 elements. 2.45 or something
vs TAY: TAY has worse HP and speed, but much better Pdur, almost 50% more damage and getting NE damage doesn't mean as big a damage drop. TAY has the edge
Edge: 94% HP, 142% Speed, Half-Average Damage + Turn 2 Sleep or OPB ITD average damage. Foils evadable damage. 3.9. Feels like slips into Low Heavy (effective 4HKO off 142% speed plus if enemy can be hit by sleep they are losing a turn). Really wants to draw evadable physicallers. Obviously a lot better with the 100% Sleep
vs TAY: TAY form is a better for me (Better physical damage, better Fuma damage, lower kill point = 2HKO off that speed), plus better HP. Status option is worse (not attached to damage, although Paralysis >>>>>> Sleep).
Edward: 55!% HP! (although 82% Pdur for me) 208% Speed! 17% HP and it's elemental! Then there is the sleep/confuse strategy.
So, Edward's Confuse/Sleep strategy is another great of example of why factoring in enemies that status fails against makes sense. Edward running 150% Speed, 100% Sleep Lock is not something that should be taken seriously, but it is what he should have with standard DL views.
I got him to solo a Gold Dragon with this strategy (thank god for Auto Battle)! It likely took several hundred turns (he does 1 damage except crits), but it did work!
Anyways, with my views, the Confuse strategy isn't worthless. Edward is likely to tie up an enemy more often than not, and it's often going to be more effective damage for an enemy to hit him or herself. Sleep is probably worthless though. Uh....2.85? Definitely a strategy I'd need to think about more, so it's too bad I don't have the DL matches for look over. Taking the Sleep/Confuse at 100% though makes Edward a solid enough Heavy.
vs TAY: Lol
Kain: 120% HP, ~158% Pdur (and a lot better to others; 220% PDur at base) Resists the big 3, 109% Speed, about 17% damage. 2.75. A Light, but can defensively spoil and Blood Spear can ruin bad healers. Even better taking the 220% PDur.
vs TAY: Lol
Palom: 70% HP, although ~75% durability to me, 89% speed. 83% Damage, which is often to grab a few OHKOs and fatal stop. 3.5. Loads better than Rydia.
vs TAY: I gave TAY A 3.25. TAY durability is similar, but TAY is slower and the speed hit on Flare hurts.
Porom: 64% HP (although good defense to me), 66% Damage, 89% Speed, Turn 1 Confuse/Berserk + The Good old Reflect/Image combo. Has a good number of tricks to handle mages (And she's generally not get OHKOed); fighters are dicier although even a faster fighter that 2HKOs either needs Holy resistance, healing or ITE (the last which could be foiled with Berserk if its a tech) or Image will do the trick. 3.55.
in the DL:
vs TAY: Gave TAY a 3.7. 4a has better speed, worse damage and overall similar durability. I probably overrated TAY a little as the forms feel pretty similar in effect to a degree.
Rosa- 90% HP, 75% Damage (but that goes off at around 50% speed!), ~75% speed, a few turn 1 statuses that go off at worse speed and nasty 0 CT defensive tricks. Bad defense at base. 3.9. Low Heavy. Nasty if she gets going, but gives you a lot of chance to stop her.
in the DL: Loses to Liete I'd think, certainly loses that famous Elc match (although Elc having ITE ruins a defensive strategy there which makes things clear). G2 Elena may be a loss (FF 4 Sleep does reset her ATB, so she'll keep losing to it potentially), Dehaui (she gets gradual petrify not petrify and there are equips that get both, so there's definitely a distinction)
vs TAY: Well, I gave TAY a 3.75, but I was also a little unsure how it played out. TAY likely takes out Dehaui, but I think TAY having shorter reflect is a big loss. However, the damage is a lot better and TAY could be a 3.9. Probably similar overall
Rydia: 61% HP + bad defense! (Not as bad to me, but for everyone else she'll be near 40% PDur). Also she's slow, doesn't OHKO, and while she does have good Stop, that makes her even slower. On top of that, Sylph's efficiency went way down since it tanks against MDef in game hard. 3.3 to me, but with the base defense average she's a good Light . Even allowing half-status resistance hurts her since she only has 1 turn status to me.
in the DL: Still beats Ryudo. Barely under the base defense formulation (and doesn't beat him if Black Belt is allowed) as he does like 99% of her HP with SDS. Loses to Rapp under non row defenses due to being OHKOed (let alone if you allow the ID, which in 4a she doesn't have legal protection against). Loses to S3 Luc.
vs TAY: Prefers TAY despite the CT increase. Quicker time to kill and the Pdur doesn't burn so badly.
Yang- Yikes. 167% HP, 208% Speed, Sleep on attack, but just 22% HP damage (I guess that's similar to average damage and speed as a combo). Good defense at base, but not by my scaling. Sleep is also every other turn to me, but given that HP, that will still keep a good number of people somewhat sleep locked. 3.6. With the view of Sleep being 100% and good base defense (where his PDur is around 2.5x normal), that's more like a 4.3 though.
in the DL: Should have crushed Shinjiro and Peppita, although welcome to O/A split
vs TAY: Lol
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Octopath! I would not rank any of the bosses; they're either plotless or massively swingy based on what level you do the chapter or both.
Equips I'm not sure on what I allow; I definitely don't allow Allure/Guide/Hired Help. Definitely will revise this once I figure out precisely where I see average damage.
Ophilia- 2.75. Her struggles with a bad slugger like Miakis show her issues; she can only heal six times before running out of juice and is slow. She's also hopeless against light defense. Magic reflect is useful against mages at least and she does have damage once she's fully boosted.
Cyrus- 3.05. The regen helps keep him afloat till his third turn and he's harder to elementally wall than Ophilia. He really doesn't care for mages though and Rip*100000 if he runs against people who resist all of his elements.
Tressa- 3.6. One trick pony but a good one; she has decent stats to back it up and a decent limit thanks to her divine skill.
Olberic- 3.75. He's hard to slug down and has a brutal turn three, but status is an issue. Think it keeps him on the M side of the border.
Primrose- 2.5. Whoof. I suppose Confuse from her attack has some use but she isn't winning on damage much and has no recourse against any type of status. She can sort of work around limits with Peacock strut at least.
Alfyn- 3.9. He's got a funky DL build. Status resistance and immunity after turn one is nice, the durability and resources are wonderful as well. He's slow and really wishes he had a better limit option, but he still can hang in Heavy.
Therion- 3.7. I find him less impressive than Alfyn or Olberic in practice; the drain's good but not enough in Heavy. Unlike Alfyn he can't resist status, and he doesn't have Olberic's tanking. (Olberic kills faster on turn three which negates the speed advantage). He definitely seems like he belongs in Middle.
H'aanit- 3.1. Another borderliner. Leghold+one turn of damage and then limit are just enough to keep her out of light.
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Notes: I probably don't respect the ITE concept of most of the PCs moves since you really have to specifically hunt for an enemy in game that has any MBlock.
Damage average ignores Gogo (except for Gogo)
Terra- About 1.25 Pdurability (can boost the Pdur up to about 1.5), 22% Evade (Can be boosted up around 32%), 78% Fire Magic, 56% Physical and a lot of healing/draining. Now the damage does come off a little slow on turn 1, but I don't think she has enough damage to really matter turn 1 a lot of the time anyways. Really hates the loss of the skillset. Break and non spell damage options really helped, but I still think she can play in Low Godlike. Back up physical + draining + the durability helps. 4.55
>>In the DL: Should lose to Lenneth, Rika, Ness (fails to 2HKO), probably Albedo (Fire res), maybe Luther. Should still be fine against Loki, Shizel, Jecht, Ultimecia (I think?). Hrist I'm unsure given I prorate storebought status blockers. Not a good Godlike, but still nabbing wins and not like there are many Heavies to compare her to here
Celes- Ooph. Loss of that skillset is painful. Goodbye Vanish, goodbye Flare/Pearl. Status is turn 2 to me (except Imp which is more like turn 4) and that doesn't make a Confuse lock great. 37.2% Ice Magic, 29.3% Physical to Most of the DL. Uh...well, the defenses and evasion are nice, but 3.5
>>In the DL: Still beats Rolf (who is also not a Godlike). Think still may beat Poo (she slows his status, Berserk's him, then outslugs), Crono, Elmdor and Feena, so ironically I still think she should be a Heavy champion (granted, that's a really Middle-ish field). Would imagine she loses to Endora/Necrosaro/Citan/Taro
Cyan- Slow 5HKOer or ID that goes off on turn 3.8 (Granted, Cyan's turn 3.8). Has a few things against quite bad Lights. 2.3
>>DL Wise: Loses to Melody, Zegai, Logg, Zappa, Hawkeye. Charging for ID gets Aeris and Bernadette though
Edgar- Turn 1 Confuse and effective turn 2 ID, although this my scaling I don't see the Confuse as a lock down (although pondering a bonus for effective in game lock down). Can opt for some MBlock for some turn 1 status evasion. 3.95
>>In the DL: Loses to Diekbeck, maybe Delita, Lyn, Hugo, Slust if Slust has evasion (obviously me not respecting ITE really hurts)
Gau- Hates losing the Snow Muffler. Flip side, he's still above average speed and has a host of nasty stuff. Turn 2 Charm, can spoil status/ID/elements. 4.1. That Charm is nasty.
>>Actually seems about right, which is surprising considering.
Gogo- Well, I think I limit Gogo to 1 special skillset, but regardless Edgar or Strago's status, Shadow's Damage + Evade spoiling or Sabin's Damage is a nasty combo, especially with a fast turn 1. Uh...sigh. 4.4/shouldn't have been ranked
Locke- 26.5% Phys Damage that adds up 33% ITD Damage as Lock loses HP. Around 90% Durability and good turn 1 Speed. Someone doing average damage will push him up to around 40% damage turn 2 and 55% turn 3, so it's an effective anti-healer measure and makes him a surprisingly nasty slugger...in Light. 2.95
>>DL: Loses to Palom (obv). Probably beats Fiora (to me at least; she's not evading before he 3HKOs), definitely beats Mia,, ight beat Yangus if I updated DQ 8 status numbers
Think he probably still loses to Albert (assuming Rose Storm still halves damage and I allowing SP starting turn 1), but it's not a horrible match. So it's possible he should have ended in Middle in the DL for me (and I do wonder how much by 2.9 is skewed by past considerations of him)
Mog- Like Gau, hates losing Snow Muffler. Now durability is a bit below average plus Mog is slow. Reliable damage is a 5HKO; if he's faster or can take 2 turns, Wind Song's Healing can net some slugfest wins. Uh...2.65? Hard to really place.
>>DL: Loses to Rath and Cleo. Could beat Sarah, but probably not.
Relm- 28% Physical Damage against most of the DL (214% against non-Humans), Above average durability and speed and laughs at most elements. 2.65
>>DL Wise: Loses to Olan to me (but Olan is quite good to me!). Feel like she also likely loses to Rebecca (but I didn't open the WA 5 topic)
Sabin- 65.2% ITD Damage, 102.8% Speed Over Two Turns, A Bit Averagish Defenses. 4 sounds about right
>>DL Wise: No Disagreements (well, like I remember anything about Cameela)
Setzer- Swingy 30.5% average ITD damage (Good for healer busting), tad slow and about average durability. 2.7
>>DL Wise: Well, assuming that Alice doesn't halve Fixed Dice, I still think she wins (she 3HKOs, so while she may need to heal once, this isn't being dragged out long enough for the healer busting to matter) and Rikku (who is a Godlike)
Shadow- 58.4% ITD Damage, 110% Turn 1 Speed/105.8% over 2 Turns), Spoils Physicals pretty well. Even Mdur isn't much of a flaw (90%ish, which isn't OHKOed often in Heavy, although there are going to be some faster 2HKOing mages). 4.35
>>In the DL: Loses to Moltres (slightly faster turn 2 to me, let alone people with more SD respect). Despite not having ITE to me, Wakka and Lyn bite it to Shadow's anti phyiscal nature regardless!
Strago- 55% ITD MAgic, Can hit 2 of Poison, Sleep, Mute and Muddle at once (which is not amazing, but certainly can buy wins a number of wins). Near average durability on the whole, but sluggish. 3.6
>>In the DL: Loses to Hahn (halves? 25% res to Sleep/Mute/Muddle which I think slows Strago down too much). Might beat Guy, but not too sure there. Loses to Kraken. Beats Mog (obv!). Beats Alfina (lol w/ Gaia Gear)
Umaro- 173% PDur, 120% MDur, At least nulls the big 3 elements, averagish speed, and average 31.6% damage (which is often ITD). Solid slugging Middle. 3.45
>>In the DL: Beats Heath. Suspect I would see him beating Rouge with status scaling included for Saga. And uh...probably Izlude.
Kefka- So I did go a little easy on Kefka in at least 1 way since I end up seeing him with 1.24 PC HP. Granted, the first turn is slow and back row doesn't help with his damage (still OHKO, but only about 114%) and good relative evasion can slow him down (need a lot though). Train is nasty in game, but isn't useful in Godlike. Inability to chip around half his HP will result in a nasty counter. 4.65
>>In the DL: Beats Choko, Freya, Ash. Might lose to Decus, certainly Piastol (defense, chips around counter limit, faster), Royce (that durability split), PD, Fou-Lu (although Fou-Lu crushed him later), False Althena (what a slaughter), Elc (More slaughter), Probably Van (durability, although could be overrating there, but one limit will be fatal), Yuna
So remaining wins are Fujin, Nate, Anastasia, Endora, Sephiroth (Chipping aroudn the limit is an issue. Flying out of range means lower damage), Yuri, Luca, Ramirez, Wren, Zio (still 2HKOs before Zio 2HKOs), Lugia, Lloyd, probably Zeromus.
So definitely still a Godlike, but struggles against upper tier
Doom- PC HP, Fast, but damage isn't great (Charge Time to have near OHKO damage! Otherwise sadness). Granted, not a bad Heavy. 4.25
Poltrgeist- The durable Goddess. 93% PC HP, but almost halves physicals and cuts magic by 1/3. Fast, turn 2 killer status (needs to hit 2 statuses though), borderline 2HKO damage (albeit at 72% accuracy), gets nastier below 56% HP (which isn't bad with her durability). Could swing low Godlike thanks to the Flare Star smash later on. 4.55
Goddess- 70% HP, 48%! Pdur, a slow turn 1. Woof. Don't think she's quite a Light since she can be dangerous if she gets...2 turns, but 3.25.
Ultros- About 2 PC HP in Lete River form, but just 1.18 Pdur and weak to Lightning and Fire. 72% Physical Damage spammable damage to me. 4.25
>>In the DL: Beats Cecil, I think Feena (she doesn't quite have the firepower to make this happen)
Random Bosses I meant to rank before
Albedo- 1.2 PC HP, 50% PC HP Damage that also heals him (although I wouldn't give that too much credit since it's 6.8% of his HP in game, but worth something?), Confusion and EP killing. I'm okay with Demonic Gaze doing 0.5 PC HP against bosses; he's really bad otherwise against bosses. Bad bad damage except for Fallen Angel, which is a turn charge hidden behind an HP limit on someone with bad HP. 4.65
>>In the DL: Loses to Ghaleon for a second time...Beats Fei for a second time. Beats Terra, Probably Jecht, Sephiroth
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I definitely think you're underrating Celes! Just digging in with Safe (+Haste if you respect that at all, totally fine if you don't) + good defences + Minerva outstalls a surprising number of opponents. She didn't have much trouble hanging in Low Godlike and the only thing that's really changed is her status is worse (but turn 2 statuses still win fights, and of course much status that would kill make her lose is worse too, by your views). She'd kill Middle by any reasonable views.
I agree with "do not nom" for Gogo, but want to emphasize that he's not fast. Sneak Ring hype is ridiculous, RunningShoes are storebought as are many other good relics. You're giving Gogo and Locke credit for something completely irrelevant in-game because +5 FF6 speed is a pathetic use of a relic slot. At minimum, you could maybe argue Sneak Ring + Running Shoes is worth +5 speed on another character using [some other relic] + Running Shoes, though a penalty for not using [some other relic] is still in order even then.
Similarly, Umaro. IMO if he wants to use a Rage Ring, you should at the very least scale his damage against people using Earrings / Atlas Armlet in that slot. Same issue as Gogo, FF6 relic slots are valuable! And in Umaro's case, anything to make him look a bit closer to his (terrible) in-game use seems desirable to me.
FF6 ITD ignores Safe/Shell/row/Morph/(other effects which reduce damage by a percentage), so would certainly ignore Rose Storm and Alice's damage reduction as well.
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You may be right about Celes, although I don't respect Haste. However, she is losing both Vanish and Flare (ITD! non elemental magic!) and I might actually only take Maneater with a bonus of the susceptible enemies in endgame (and might then see Relm with Punisher. The other users dont' want it under my views and it certainly fits a compromise equip).
I agree on Sneak rings and Umaro. I'm removing the Sneak Rings and thinking about giving Umaro a 20% damage penalty.
And that definitely helps ITD (So I think Locke would beat Albert, but would have to math it out. I thought Alice likely won regardless, but could be wrong there).
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FF4 in the DL that I didn't get to do previously
Edge- Probably loses to Groudon and Ho'oh (Ho'oh safeguard and outslugs, Groudon will get in 2 hits since no 100% sleep). Under standard DL views does beat Cleo as well.
Edward- Trololo. Okay, should still lose to Cait Sith, Piccolo, Karyl, Raja.
Beats Forde easily enough.
Basically, if your basic physical sucks, Edward's Confuse strategy will fail at some point. If your basic physical is decent, it can turn.
Under standard DL views (aka: he's rocking 100% status): Beats Forde. Beats Karyl. Probably beats Raja (that speed difference). Does still lose to Vinsfield! Loses to Cait Sith because Cait Sith gets Confused, self damages, triggers an immediate limit.
Palom- Actually, no real point. Wins all the Light losses he had, and Odessa is a nightmare to me
Porom- Probably doesn't lose to Jude or Gijimu
Xenogears since I finished replaying his a few weeks ago
Fei- Decent durability and speed, 49% mostly Dark damage, 32.9% mostly Fire/Water/Wind or Earth damage. Can trade some damage to cut the average phsyical by 60% or can get 50% Evade that does poor Counter damage that lasts for a long time. Could be a low Heavy, but doesn't quite feel like the punch is there due to the ways to spoil. 3.65
In the DL: Loses to Fujin (at least I figure; is it totally possible that she's still OHKOed? Potentially), Albedo, Bosch (I would think), Celia, Evade spoil should get Nephenee. Cant' say I remember Renee
Citan- Speed! 157% with the ability to double it + 54% mostly Elemental DAmage plus a fw other tricks that could see some use. Godlike, albeit one that generally struggles to nab many wins. 4.65
In the DL: Beats Choko (obviously, he's not a Light). Would think Mewtwo would take this (Citan can't kill before Mewtwo gets two turns) and Barrier + Recover would mean that Mewtwo would outlast if Citan tried to outheal. Might potentially beat CEles under my view, but would have to math out. Probably loses to Eirika to me, but would need to math out.
Elly- Slow, below average HP, 35% damage. On the wrong side of all curves, and Lunar Rod being turn 2 definitely doesn't help. Nevertheless, there the argument that once the Sleep hits she wins in which case she's a decent Light (generally not getting 2HKOed as often there). 2.85
In the DL: Woof. So loses to anyone likely that I see having any sleep resistance. Lani, Chisato, Rikku, Miakis, Human Reis. Probably others she loses to as well but she's still winning a lot of this Light matches. Should be Vincent
Bart- Dual spoiling fun. Laughs at evadable physicals either by boosting his evade or ruining their accuracy or both. Magic is halvable (granted, at a damage cost himself). Staying on the right side of the speed curve barely does help. 38% Damage or 29.7% if needs Speed busting. L/M package without the tricks, but I think the tricks get him to around 3.5 (albeit could spoil much better fighters).
In the DL: No Changes
Billy- Hates being Holy-locked. 90% Speed and 94% HP, but can double the speed. 47.8% damage. 4.2. The Holy reliance really hurts because he'd be close to Godlike otherwise
In DL: Loses to Maya thanks to elements. Sasarai may take him out (looks like keeping the subtractive aspect of XG defense in place, Sasarai does OHKO, but just misses if it's converted to division; Also depends on what SD you use)
Rico- 119% HP, 74% Speed, 38% Damage, Cuts Physicals by a third. A Light; not horrible but not great. Had him like 11th in List, so I feel like he looks better when not compared to others. 2.7
In the DL: Lol, he lost to Llewelyn. Oops. Loses to Luna (buff/buff/heal/heal/smite)
ChuChu- 2
Maria- 2
Emeralda- A bit above average durability, 133% Speed, 41% Damage. So basically a little above average + speed. 3.4
Id- 95% PC HP, 40% magic res, 114% Speed Turn 1, 250!% After that, 76% Damage (Although since it requires focus, I don't respect him using it every turn. Hey, limited in game to using any non basic physical every 3 turns, which works for me in allowing the full focus. Albeit, I guess would still allow free reign otherwise). Still the 2HKO off that speed. Heavy. Limiting the damage does hurt so going to say 4.1.
In the DL: Might lose to Zalbard (Didn't he have HP? But also the best damage was magic). I'd think if he loses to Hugo he loses to Augustine. Cristo is close, but looks like Id still pulls that one at (Id double DBs, Cristo heals, Id doubles and uses 2 regular DBs and will kill with the magic so Cristo is stuck between healing or raising defense)
Grahf- About PC HP, but 70% Mdur. A bit slow, 67% Physical Damage, quite accurate. 3.55 or something
Miang- Let's say 71% HP with good Mdef and 100% Instant Death. Hate her as a dueller, but 3.95 and may we never speak of her otherwise.
Dominia- Well, the damage move unlocks when the allies are dead, so I have to remove any concept of HP credit I ever gave her. 42% HP, but manages near average Pdur, like 140% speed and 43% ITE damage. WA 4 Tony without as much speed. Like 2.7 or something
Kelvena- 2.25
Seraphita- 63% HP, Halves Magic, 95% Speed, Full EP Damage, Susceptible to basically any debilitating status (including ID). Double spoiler who could possibly find a beatable Godlike and loses to some Lights. 3.3 or something???
Tolone- 2.5. Bad with some elemental spoiling
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I dunno that I'd view Billy as holy-elemental DL-wise. Literally nothing in Xenogears resists his "holy" element, and only two enemies are weak to it, both Wels. I'm more inclined to view his damage as simply hitting weakness on undead, as a result. It seems rather ridiculous to say that an FFT character can slap on a Chameleon Robe and become immune to being shot.
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Hmm, right. I guess Fei should also get the same thing for Dark.
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Mario Rabbids. Note: Strong DNR to all the bosses. I also have to figure out how seriously I take overwatch. Technically it's useless against faster enemies in the DL, but that really is not how it functions in game.
Mario- 3.5. Good damage and dangerous against healers, but has no recourse against status or high physical defense. I would need to see him in PG to figure out how good he is in the division.
Rabbid Peach- 3.2. Below average fighter across the board with just enough tricks to stay in the division.
Rabbid Luigi- 4.3. The hero we need. Drain game and anti damage tricks are amazing; the big DL problem is status (Or drain resistance). He starts to run into problems with OHKOs in high heavy; see fight with Golbez in Futurama.
Luigi- 2.4. Some nasty anti healer tricks and does bad things with Ink if you're slower than him. That HP score makes sure that he stays in Light however.
Peach- 3.8. She might scrape Heavy just based on the regen+offense. Status is useful too. Doesn't like status but is hard to slug down without that.
Rabbid Mario- 3.2. Turn two stone is nice and so is draining in long matches, but the techs are very marginal. Best I can say for his skills that his barrier might buy him an extra turn and Magnet Dance could null enemy evade for a turn. Oof. DL damage not great due to tech woes. Kind of reminds me of Gafgarion of all things.
Rabbid Luigi-3.3. Feels wrong he's ranked this high, but outer shell is legit. Damage isn't great and I am uninclined to respect Scaredy Rabbid much. It could be higher but the overall durability/damage package is just not great.
Yoshi-3.4. Decent damage/durability package but not anything special. Might be worse than RM in practice but I'd have to see them in proving grounds to tell.
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Mario Rabbids. Note: Strong DNR to all the bosses. I also have to figure out how seriously I take overwatch. Technically it's useless against faster enemies in the DL, but that really is not how it functions in game.
Why would it be useless against faster opponents? It's useful against any melee opponents. Move away from the opponent and use overwatch, and the opponent has a choice between not moving that turn (and hence not attacking, if they rely on melee), or triggering it. I guess you could let faster opponents wait and attack right after it ends, doubleturning then, but even then, it still lets the Mario PC effectively push back the opponent's turn (allowing them to face one less enemy attack than they otherwise would), so no matter what it's an important push against melee foes.
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I forgot that Overwatch ended at the start of the PC's next turn, so yeah I'm wrong there. I am inclined to give the overwatch skills some credit though; they're pretty awesome in game.
Mario I think I may be lowballing as a fighter, but he's got nothing backing up that offense. If he's a heavy he's a pretty bad one.
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I Am Setsuna
Endir- Good PC in-game, but doesn't get a great translation to the DL since some worth focused on AoE and he's the only one who lacks either a great defensive buff or status. 75% Healing, can hit both defenses and Battlecry strategies help. Battlecry is a nice way to potentially pump durability up a bit while making his turns come quicker (does ~1.2 PC damage of either type at ~2.81 clockticks, so it gives him a slightly fast 3HKO). Cast worst dueller I think (granted, just barely and Kir was worse in previous versions) 3.25
Setsuna- Spam Luminaire and hope it's enough. This allows her to do 1.78 PC HP Holy/Lightning Magic before she runs out of steam or 1.3 PC HP with a status immunity weapon). Solid gimmick in Middle, but definite flaws (other healers, strong enough elemental resistance, high end evasion). 3.35
Aeterna- Giving me Tidus+more traditional FF Time Mage. Fast, very accurate turn 1 stop, 3HKO and a fantastic, fantastic evasion move (although she wishes it got status, but getting all HP damage is still great since there's very little ITE I'd see getting through it). She definitely has flaws (statusers that she can't status out first), some ARPG bosses with many hits, super durable bosses (although just 1 type of defense doesn't wall her).
Against single hit damage:
If she doesn't double, she can output ~2 PC HP physical damage under Mirage and ~1.57 PC HP Magic)
Deserving Godlike, although I think the level of boss status in the division makes her struggle
4.65
NIdr- Two nasty statuses + above average speed turn 1. If you are solely dependent on either just physical or magical damage, he has a good shot of spoiling (Counter/Double Back->wait for SP->Tenacity->Attack+Momentum->Attack+Momentum->Repeat; This allows him to do 2.14 PC HP Damage over 3 cycles. 4.15
Kir- Vanish is a life-saver. Allows him to do 1.51 PC HP magic damage while needing to only take 1 hit, or do 1 PC HP in a hit against a healer, or 1+ PC HP damage that deals with dispellable moves. Can also come out doing 65.5% Magic, with 80% Healing and with the enemy damage weakened. Stringing this strategy out nets 3.2 PC HP magic damage
OHKO, status out or have AoE. 4. Would be a Light without vanish.
Julienne- Wishes she was above average speed, but still solid. Effectively infinite healer with a nasty turn 1 status and hovering around average stats. Having semi-credible enough damage of both times never hurts. 4
Fides- Fast + accurate ID and Paralysis. Status immunity will make him run the other way in Heavy usually, but that's rare. 4.05
A few reranks for modification of status views
BoF 3
Momo- Her statuses jump back to turn 1, giving her a complete set of turn 1 options now. 4. (Was 3.75
Rei- Silence is now turn 1. Useful upgrade against some mages. 4.05. (Was 3.9)
Nina 3- Blunt and Slow are now turn 1. Blunt is very effective to me (cutting physical damage like 60% and gets better against low attack))...which actually gives her a solid strategy against Light fighers since if it hits, she'll jump to around 140% PDur. 2.75. (Was 2.75, but I was giving her itemcasts that likely weren't legal beacuse they actually succeeded in making her interesting)
Peco- Sleep is now turn 1, instead of turn 3. Sleep is...excellent since it gvies Peco an EXA (so two free turns to heal/breath/physical on the last). Considering that this does a lot of alleviate one of Peco's two biggest issues, feels like Peco can claw up in Middle. 3.1 (Was 2.75)
Hilda- ID is turn 3 to me (which a recharge). Still has some use with her durability and healing against some Middle healers perhaps. And she still has Haste-Healing as well. 3.3 (Was 4.15
LO
Jansen- Curse/Seal/Paralysis are barely turn 2, rest is turn 3 (except Death which is very bad), so can inflict Curse/Seal/Paralysis turn 1 with double cast (Seal is likely the only one worth it). Still has like OHKO damage at 50% speed. Uh...2.85. (Was 3.3)
Mack- Fear falls from turn 1 to turn 2. Fast 5HKO Physical (Or Buff + 3HKO), some not great magic options and a few other grab-bag. 2.8 (Was 3.2)
Sarah/Ming- Goodbye to a lot of turn 1 status, although none of the effects were super useless. Still a little loss 2.65 (Was 2.8)
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Trails 3
To start, thanks to S-Crafts, all the cast generally plays the same way on damage. Use magic spell + S-Craft to try for something in the 2HKO range generally around turn 2.2. Later Trails games definitely have a more interesting balance on this, but there's no way to really escape here.
Hard to gauge some status stuff now since I haven't seen in practice (and I'm still chewing over accessories. Current thought is still the half effect for status resistance).
Kevin- Turn 1 fatal status with trails blockers is solid alone (although his status isn't a strong turn 1 to me, so he'll be notably better for everyone else). Throw in the Healing which pairs well with Clock Down, the best AT Delay option (against a slower enemy, Kevin can line this up to do 1.24 PC HP damage so it's a healer busting option against some...maybe). 1.05 PC HP damage at around 2.3 turn if delay is out. 4
Ries- 1.10 PC HP damage at turn 2.2. The healing might see some use in Middle despite the speed slowdown. Turn 1 Confuse and Silence are nice options. 3.45
Agate- Fantastic in game for reasons that don't translate as Wild Rage is great, but given the 100 CP starting point, irrelevant. 88% damage at turn 2 turn if he took a hit, and 1.12 PC HP at turn 3.33 if he takes 1 attack (while delaying enemy 0.67 turns, so think of it as a fast 3 turn), decent durability and has some magic it he needs a backup. 3.2 or something
Estelle- 0.87 PC HP damage at turn 1.24, 0.96 at 2, 1.13 PC HP damage at turn 2.24. Loves that's big S-Craft for all that an ST S-Craft in game is a sad thing. Has full healing, but the speed slowdown associated hurts its use. 100 CP versus 50 and the slowdown in Healing makes her a lot worse than her Trails 1 form. 3.45
Josette- Turn 1 might as well be Fatal Paralysis. That's it! 3.6, but borderline Heavy under other status views I think
Joshua- 110% HP, Option for turn 1 Silence. 96.7% PC HP Damage at turn 2 (if he's taken an attack), 107.9% at turn 3.24 (which delays an enemy 0.55). ID is borderline turn 4/5. 3.45
Julia- Mirageberg is her cute DL trick, although it doesn't amount to a lot thanks to losing CP so no S-Craft; might be useful against some very durable opponent who lacks healing. Clock Down does pair nicely with it though. Otherwise, has the best attack spell so on the better side of damage. 3.45
Kloe- Has obtained a damaging S-Craft and good thing because the stat Down game was nerfed badly after game 1. Clock Down + Healing is a great combo. 1.05 PC HP at turn 2.25. Unlike Estelle, she has enough going on to keep her in Heavy. 3.9
Mueller- Turn 3 effective fatal Paralysis, Turn 2 Mute, good healing (albeit that moves his speed worse), but the normal backloading S-Craft fun. He'll be a lot better to others where the statuses are 1 turn quicker. 3.45
Olivier- Turn 1 and around 103% PC HP damage at turn 2.2. Low Middle thanks to Confuse I think. 3.2
Renne- Turn 3 ID (much better for everyone else where it's effectively turn 1 though), 1.1 PC HP at turn 2.18, and solid turn 1 Silence. Can't see the Healing mattering much with her poor HP and the slow down. 77% HP hurts when your 2HKO is a tad slow; 3.35
Richard- Best damage. 85% at turn 1, 93% damage at turn 1.24, 99% at 1.66 and nearly 120% at 1.88, the last two using the crazy high recharge on his techs.
For others, the tech blitz strategy is also good because the Faint is turn 4 if a status is really needed for some reason. It's turn 6 to me, so it's less relevant. Clock Down could see occasional use.
Doesn't quite feel like a Heavy considering I didn't think Laura was either (and the nearly OHKO turn 1ish damage makes them feel similar), although Richard's magic damage obviously so, so much better and lets him deal with healers who aren't OHKOed. Also turn 1 Silence option so maybe. I'll just say 3.8
Scherazard- So her S-Craft includes status that is either fatal, basically fatal, wrecks fighters or wrecks mages/techs. 50% chance of fatal isn't enough, so I'll see it getting Blind or Confuse depending on which is better. Fox Tail is a cute concept, but it's a high cost and lower damage than Richard's hyper low RT option (Schera's is faster though), but may be a better damage rush than the S-Craft regardless. Schera can do 79% PC HP damage at turn 1.74 or 95% PC HP damage at turn 1.9 if she takes a hit in addition to the standard 99% PC HP damage at turn 2.2. Throw in turn 1 Silence as an option for more status. 3.55
Tita- Talk about a massive upgrade. Orbal Gear is fantastic, given Tita near S-Craft damage every turn, giving her access to accurate Paralysis. doubling her HP and increasing her speed 50% (which the game doesn't even tell you!). Granted, near S-Craft damage is still a high 4HKO. If you don't block Paralysis, you need to OHKO her and while her HP is bad, it's not generally that bad. Really interesting Low Heavy is my gut. 3.85
Zin- Good HP and best speed (for all that doesn't mean much). True Distend is nice; giving him a borderline 2HKO with additional bulk for longer matches. Good HP. Turn 3 Confuse, which isn't as bad with that HP and a little extra speed. 3.45...am I stuck on that number? I gave it to almost half the cast.
Cassius- The Legend. Cassius has some pretty spectular build-up as far as being pretty badass, and that holds mostly true (at least in a pre-MQ world). Around 1.4 PC HP to me, solid speed + great recharges, cuts damage by about 25%, borderline 2HKO at base (anything + SCraft). But Qilingong is great, giving him instead a solid 2HKO and boosting his speed 50%. He can have an near-infinite delay loop (until he misses at least) that is somewhat resistant to evasion; I think that he's an effetive PC killer type and that the rest of the package isn't bad enough to keep him from Godlike. 4.6
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Brigandine!
Few notes to start
I take a lower magic defense to reflect in game, boosting both magic damage and magic status hit rates
I include monsters in averages (although Rune Knights outnumber than like 5-1)
I include the part of the starting equips that weren't included in the topic
I dock quest knights for EXP in a similar manner to what the topic does for the late joiners.
I use Level as the speed stat for the first turn (everyone is average afterwards). It also effects status durations for statuses that wear off.
I see all moves as elemental. For Holy/Dark, I probably halve any resistance they face (there are various aspects about this I go back on forth on, but I may also refactor aspects about how I see armor based elemental resistances). I do take 6 orbs as fully elemental, so anything less than 6 orbs isn't as badly hit by elemental resistance.
I don't see defenses as potent as the topic does (I'm at about 60% effect of the topic)
Turn 1 magic/non moving physicals have anti-initiative (if a Brig character is faster normally, they will go right after the opponent. This will lead to an auto-double if the opponent is below average speed however.)
Eliza- 110% HP, 135% PDur, 124% Mdur, 24% Evade (turn 3), 1.89 SD, 51% Physical Damage, 62% Magic Damage (just 2 shots though). Is this enough for Heavy with the additional potential short range tricks and status immunity. Going to say barely. 3.8
Rubino- 122% HP, 145% Pdur, 180% MDur, -0.86 sD, 45% Physical Damage, 57% Magic Damage (jsut 2 shots). Blizzard Shot Faint is 44% to me, so that does definitely have uses if he is 3HKOed and isn't 2HKOing himself, but I don't know how enough it's coming up realistically. 3.6
Rudo- 102% OPB Damage, 60% Otherwise, basically around 150% Durability. Fights like a boss in game and in the DL. +3.25 SD turn 1. 4.5. Very borderline and could be overrating a little, but nasty turn 1 speed + OHKO + durability + status immunity feels right at the borderline.
Stella- 122.4% HP, 139% Pdur, 133% Mdur, 0.24 SD plus 50.3% Phys damage with 50.8% Faint off Ambush, so that being turn 1 is fantastic for her since it means that she'll be seeing Dragon's Destruction. That could make her a low Heavy, but could be a very swingy strategy. 3.8
Talia- 104% HP, 117% Pdur, 109% Mdur, 17% Evasion (turn 4), -0.31 SD, 43.1% Physical Damage. A Middle who wins on either spoiling status or the heal and counter game (She can add another 2.9 PC HP to potentially in this manner). Fittingly the worst duelling ruler. 3.25
Tim- ~120% Pdur, 140% Mdur, 1.34 SD and 63% damage, but can only be used three times before MP is out (then falls back to 42% damage though). Also has 50% magic damage should he needs to just bypass evasion. Solid package overall. 3.6
Adieu- 122.5% HP, 120% Pdur, ~130% Mdur, +1.34 SD, 51.2% Damage with 42% Stun to me is nice. Definitely a good Middle. 3.55
Alsin- During 1.25 Pdur and 1.3 Mdur, +1.89 SD turn 1, 49.6% base damage that also heals about 5% of his HP. Never really sees his nasty damage though (I guess at someone using SR AoE or MT physicals). 3.35
Della- 113% Durability with 46.3% evasion, +0.79 SD and 45.2% Damage. The status is 74% to me, so she'd hit twice in a row should she do that which could be worse (although it's probably nothing to count on too much). 3.5
Elena- Bad translation. Great in game with range and mobility, 94.8% ITE on turn 2, counters short range, but around 90% durability and -0.31 SD to start turn 1. Turn 3 evade against slightly below 100% accuracy when it comes up. 2.7
Emma- 140% Pdur, 125% Mdur, -0.31 SD, can get 90.1 damage on turn 2 (phys+mag). Probably not enough for Middle despite the durability. 2.95
Gilliam- A test of how well the Heal game with nothing else works. If he can heal and counter, he can chain his Pdur up at about 2.3 (poor MP/Int hampers him), so he can take averagish fighter types if anyone who can remotely get around the Counters (or basically any healer) will have no issue. I'm gutting 2.4, so it's hard to pencil in an exact amount of people the strategy actually works against and that's pretty critical to where he falls.
Ginger- This is a place where I would have a hilariously large interp split compared to literally anyone else. My status balancing ends up making Charm 95%. If you are slower than Ginger (she's above average speed slightly), then her game is:
-->Attack-->Charm (Nets an average of 1 excess turn, say 1 for this example)-->Curse-->Charm-->Curse
The magic itself barely 2HKOS, so add in the attack and this is about 1.25 PC HP. The chance of this strategy actually working is 60% (0.95 * 0.95 * 0.67- 0.67 is the chance of her gaining at minimum 2 excess turns from using Charm twice), putting over my 50% status threshold
She's just lacking enough MP to use Charm x 3 and Frost x 3 as a backup if she runs into Dark resistance, but Frost x 2 + Attack does about 95% PC HP damage (this is where Selena has a leg up with 40 more MP)
Also about 74% HP, 67% Pdur to me. I'm going to say 3.45. There's a lot of ways this strategy can be tripped up (OHKO her, resist Dark enough, reduce Charm 10% of more, defensive buffs, but it feels solid-ish in Middle
Ginny- I could list stats, but it's all about his hilarious accuracy at the end of the day. He does have 60% damage off good initiative, but accuracy means that he's needing 3 turns to kill on average. I think he scrapes MIddle thanks to being able to go ITE against short range fighters which really helps. 3.1
Iyona- Troubadour is definitely the worst class for duelling. Iyona can try for a Silence game, which either eats MP quickly or runs out quickly. Going to say 2.2
Jiu- Much better at the Heal+Counter game than Gilliam. Not only can she chain to up to an additional ~2.8 PC HP Pdur, she has a 54% magic spell to help her finish off (this reduces her to about 2 extra Pdur via healing). I gave Cai a 2.8 back in the day and she feels relatively similar in many ways although the counters are more damaging in her case so 2.9, although could be Middle maybe.
Kyle- 125% HP, 142% PDur, 152% Mdur, 1.89 SD. 52% MAgic damage (used twice) or 43.8% Physical Damage. Can add another 1.15 PC HP, so the Heal+Counter game is there although can't really pump up his durability too much compared to mages (but better durability and twice the physical damage to start). Wishes he can a more overwhelming strategy. 3.6
Medessa- Jiu with a little less in all stats but adding in Paralyze...which effectively gives her somethign similar to Ginger's game (Medessa will need 3 Paralyzes to net 2 turns though and does 1.18 PC HP with an Attack and two Divine Rays. I'm going to say 3.65 as having much better Pdur than Ginger helps as does combining two strategies.
Mu'ah- Turn 1 Stone as long as he can survive a hit. Good damage too, but he's not really going to winning with that in Heavy. Weakness to Ice isn't a big deal comparatively. 3.95
Pick- Wishes Elena came into a duel with him, because all his strategies are sad otherwise due to bad bad MP for a mage. 55% Pdur, 77% Mdur, turn 2 evade, 45% damage but he can only use it 3 times. He also doesn't have the speed to capitalize on Paralyze/Silence even if he had the MP, so he's hoping to face fighters where he can 2HKO and evade a hit. 2.25
Sid- 112% durability, turn 3 evade, slightly above average speed and 49.7% base damage (which gets much better against melee). Doesn't like being Lightning locked. 3.15
Sin- 91% PDur, 180% Mdur, -0.31 SD and 105% damage on turn 2. The pdur and losing initiative to average seem like they keep him in Light despite the 2HKO. 2.95
Toby- Basically beats evadable physicals. Just throwing him inside low Middle like Gaius is probably the right answer although Gaius isn't elementally locked (but Toby's 36% damage is better so I think it's a winning trade...but weak to Fire, right). 3.2
Tommy- ARound 102% durabilty with some status weakness, turn 3 evade, -0.31 SD and 36.9% damage and a lesser damage that's fully ITE if needed. 2.95
Umimaru- ~145% Pdur, ~110% Mdur, 0.24 SD, Status Immune, 91% damage on turn 3, 128% on turn 3. Not super impressive, but works in Middle. 3.2
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Cthulhu Saves the World
Cthulhu- 4.1. Around 1.25 PC HP damage over 2 turns and he's fast (or against Dark res, falls to a little about PC HP). Drain Strike protects him well if he's heal locked and needs to stall. No real answer to status or high end evade though, but good slug-fester.
Umi- 4.3. The durability is painful, but if she can shut off your offense, she doesn't really care. If she can't status out someone's offense in Heavy, she's probably losing (sure, she can take time to inflict Poison, inflict Insanity, Buff...but then she's still taking a durability cut). For all that none of the statuses shut off heailng, between Cute Pose, Chaos Trident and Prey on the Weak, that's not really an issue...was my initial thought. But then I realized that Insanity could arguably be status healed.
Reasons why it should
It's reversible in game (albeit not something enemies do)
Prey on the Weak doesn't get a boost from Insanity (other than the typical boost) could be a counter reason, but it also doesn't get a boost from Slow and Slow it cured by status healing on the PC side, so Insanity could still conceivably be a status by that regard
The only solid reason why it shouldn't is enemies can't do it in game, but enemies have no status healing so that's not really a useful comparison. Inclined to say status healing cures it, in which case Umi loses a couple potential fights because neither Seal or Insanity will stop some nasty buffs or healing + status healing. There is the speed game which I'm not inclined to give much credit to
Sharpe- Above average PDur, 107% Speed, 49% Wind damage (33% Holy as backup or 25% ITD damage). I'm a little torn on Sharpen v Stalwart Heart. Stalwart Heart is a very bad choice in game, and in a game where you can't switch skills, I'm more and more inclined on foucsing on obvious in-game choices over "Only useful in the DL".
With 6 turns of Combo Master accruing, Sharpe will get an OHKO (and still be taking less damage than normal even with the damage penalty). I'd have to see if play out, but Stalwart Heart Sharpe could be a low Heavy. Going to say 3.45 for now which Sharpen though.
October- ID pest with ID gained 3 levels before end-game (granted, her in game strengths aren't really DL applicable, so there's a slight balance). Durability is bad, but how many Middles are running around with 66% Physical Damage? Not enough to see her get OHKOed too often. 3.4
Paws- Think not enough for Middle. Fast 4HKO where the only other strategy is that it can be anti-healing (at cost of 20% durability). Not respecting CSTW stalling really hurts him and his strategies don't play well together (Nuke ignoring insanity, Nuke's damage being locked in when it's used). More SD respect might push him up. 2.95
Dacre- So for me, he's very reliant of turn 1 Seal/Blind. Haste-healing is a good combo...but two major issues: 1. Fails to lap average speed when using Haste, so there's a lot of room to 2HKO him (so for everyone else, he'd lose to an dead average PC; status saves him from that for me). 2. I have disrepect for the stalling that will manifest here. Which is to say, I think I'll see him lose to basically any other half-way decent healer (unless they have Mint or Rena like damage). 3.35
Ember- Decent in game (good MT damage source...which is the most important thing in a game that's basically hordes of trash mobs), lacking in the DL. 5HKO, slow, durability isn't offsetting this, not a single trick. 2.6
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Saga Frontier
Quick Notes:
1. I allow GriffinScratch (the damage at least), so most Mystics will be opting for this (Not Nusakan, Rei or White Rose)
2. Kill Point is a little over 8k
3. I am a little more restrictive on spending. Basically, if you have already spent more than $10K, I'm not allowing different setups. Also, if you have empty accessory slots, those will be filled for parity.
4. No expensive, durability shafting ID protection
5. I’m allowing Monsters to opt for the ZeroWorm form. This is a fairly easy form to get (needs 3 68% Skills). However, monsters in this form will only get the moves they start with (and can’t switch back to the other default forms)
6. I believe I adjsuted defense averages based on the same averages NEB did.
7. Ignoring Mystic Coup d’Grace for Mystics as this changes your stat layout if it works in game, and it doesn’t work on either of the absorb monsters. By endgame, you are making your PC worse if this works in game.
And for the rest of Coup d’Grace, I see much lower rates. It’s attached to 2750 Damage. B9 enemy HP with isn’t ID immune is 4000 (5000 average, this falls to 3850 w/o Kraken. They have a lot of HP, but other status defangs them so much more easily than cutting through their damage, so I’m saying 4000). Basically, the formula of
90 * (Lost HP/Current HP) + 9
I make that 90à28. This is 31.25% of 90 to replace the 68.75% of B9 enemy HP where the Coup D Grace kicking in just swipes the kill the damage would do. Then I make that 28->17 (this is the effect of standard prorations I make for all status)
So at various HP losses
25%- 14.6%, 35%- 18.2%, 50%- 26%, 60%- 34.5%, 70%- 48.7%, 80- 77%, 84- 98.25%
8. The big one is that I included what I'd imagine status resistance is based on some cursory tests on PC and testing status on enemies thoroughly. Poor PSY will mean that a lot of status will punish you badly.
Asellus- 54% ITE Damage, Turn 3 ID, 106% Pdur, 93% Mdur, 50% Evade against ST physicals with a chance of adding on more damage (not turn 1 against LR physicals though), but 47.3% weak to a bevy of statuses. -0.47 SD doesn't help. I think there might be a few too holes to float to Heavy (and I might be overrating her now due to biasing her towards her ending rank). Almost might want to go for more JP at the cost of stats, but that runs of the risk of not getting Lifesprinkler. 3.6
Emelia- ~115% PDur, ~118% Mdur. A little weak to status (13.5%) and 47.7% ITE and partially ITD damage off initiative. Doesn't have as large weaknesses as Asellus, but less attack options hurt. 3.65
Fuse- ~110% PDur, 96% Mdur and 8.3% Status res. 41.5% damage that has some anti-healer properties (26% ID at 50% enemy HP, 48.7% at 70%, 77% at 80%). The healing and the stat boosts game rounds out everything fairly well though. 3.9
Gen- More durable than Asellus (114% Pdur, 100% Mdur), but 45% damage in turn and no ID option. A little faster at -0.27 SD. 3.35
Red- ~150% Pdur, 130% Mdur, immune to all the nasty statuses, 1.13 SD, 61% ITE Damage and some bad backup ID should it ever be useful (probably for Ness like situations). Clear Heavy. 4.2
Roufas- 104% PDur, 90% Mdur, a tad status weak, 43% ITE/partial ITD damage off 1.63 SD speed with full healing and the stat boosting (at which point it's ~64% damage). 4.1 works.
Rouge- I do allow him Light magic (ties in with plot of get magic and he's placed so that he can't miss it. He'd prefer that he get guns based on just being the best with them, but his plot says magic over guns) and I do see him using guns about 25% of the time for stats, so he's notably better on some things to me. 80% Pdur, 74% Mdur, 20% Status Res, -0.57 SD (a little gun use goes a long way here) and 36.7% magic damage. The ID is turn 3 including Light Sword used first, so he can try a little evasion game (which is basically 25% to me, so will avoid 1 of 3 attacks if relevant). Don't think that's enough to get out of Light though as a slow, frail turn 3 killer will tread too much water in MIddle. 2.85
T260G- And our first Godlike. The great durability (2.65 Pdur, 3.05 Mdur, ~10% Regen, the VMAX option) and the speed is solid, but can't really rush out of the gate against a foe with great durability (either needing a turn for VMAX or damage dropping off a cliff after Magnify). So high class Godlikes and those with those nasty ITD can take her, but 4.9
TimeLord- And our second Godlike! Initiative 214% Physical Damage or a lot of Stone. Even a magical option for Brahms maybe. Against very durable bosses he'll be in a bit of trouble, but 4.95 works.
White Rose- 77.5% Pdur, 90.5% Mdur, 21% Status Res, 0.03 SD, 38.6% Damage. Light Sword helps everything a little, giving her 25% Evade, a 10% Damage Boost and some more speed/durability, although it's not a great help without a move that gets ShellShield's evade. Still many other Mystics would be quite envious. 3.3
Capt Hamilton- 110% Pdur/~95% Mdur, 22.3% Status Weak, 45% ITE Damage off slightly above average speed or 43% ITE/partial ITD off good speed plus a turn 4 ID option. Solid MIddle slugger. 3.65
Doll- Starts with a gun, wielding a gun in the official art, gets guns in the DL. 90% Pdur, 80% Mdur, light status resistance, 45% fast ITE/partial ITD damage and a draining move that heals 50% of Doll's HP but horrible damage (22HKO!). 3.45
Liza- 122.4% Damage! And it's fairly repeatable, which often isn't the case for PC damage of that level. 104% Pdur, 90% Mdur, 32.5% evade, 0.13 SD...but 39.3% weak to status. It's hard to see her in Godlike because of this since there might be Middles running around who can capitalize on this (or blah, there might even be Lights potentially). 4.4
Lute- 112% Pdur, 98% Mdur, 32.5% Evasion, but 44% weak to status and -0.97 SD. 46.5% ITE Damage helps, but a very slow 3HKOer with a hideous status weakness sounds like a Light albeit a solid one. 2.95
Mei-Ling- 86% Pdur, 78% Mdur, 12% STatus Res, 45% fast ITE/partial ITD damage plus a slightly above average speed 34% Magic option. Unlike White Rose, the ability to take advantage of ShellShield with her best damage makes Light Sword's Deflect a lot more useful giving her ~45% evade. Probably gets into low Heavy when it all adds up. 3.9
Dr Nusakan- 101% Pdur, 102% Mdur, a sliver above average speed (although I don't think that matters too much). I see him getting the Arcane spells, so he has a 139% Thunder nuke. He has the durability to not be OHKOed in Heavy and has 33% status res, so I think he could be Godlike on just that, but the initiative defenses up + healing clinch it since that 1.5 durability with 60% free infinite healing is solid. 4.6
Mesarthim- 95% Pdur, 85% Mdur, 30% STatus Res, +1 SD Speed, 33% Damage Phys or 18% Water Magic. Cockatrice is out (15% base hit rate if she forgoes GriffinScratch is not going to be helpful). Hide Rune + Vitality Rune is a cute way to spoil non-OHKO ST damage. She can buff damage about 30% with about a 20% durability buff. Going with 3.5. The ST spoiling does allow for punching far above her weight.
Rei- Hilarious. That durability is something with 34.5% Pdur and 40.7% Mdur. She is above average speed (barely) at 0.03 SD, so she can get some of the glass shield spoiling against average or slower. The status isn't great (low turn 2 on the ID to me, so slower Lights who don't OHKO might get caught up), but could nab her some wins. 2.65. This could be low or hideously too high.
Zozma- 71.9% Pdur, 84% Mdur, 32% Damage, and 0.63 SD. Runs from Fire/Ice and Thunder isn't much better. While normally Stun in the DL would be a joke, I'm okay with it letting him double if it hits enough times in a row. Despite the stat drop from going for GriffinScratch, my adjustments has Sharp Pain at 96%. It would basically hit 15 times in a row before missing, which will often net him two doubles. Through in Mystic stuff and I could this swing low, low Middle. 3.1
Leonard- 195% PDur, 225% MDur, -0.27 SD and 44% Phys Damage. 10 shots of 70% Healing can extend that durability much further
Damage. Great in a pure-slugfest, although hates ITD and doesn't like fellow good healers much, although Energy Supply does help there. Still in Godlike. 4.65
PzkwV- 356% Pdur, 444% Mdur, 77% Turn 1 Magic damage, but only 17% damage after that. The durability is so good, but the damage options really likely limit to Heavy. 4.4
Rabbit- 220% Pdur, 253% Mdur, 7% Regen, 1.23 SD, but the same damage limitations as PzKwV (although having a little bit more could goa long way). I think probably about even with PzkwV, so 4.4
ZEKE- 218% Pdur, 251% Mdur, 1.63 SD, 56% Physica Damage (Only 5 shots) or 34% ITE Physical Damage (Only 6 shots). Gut though is that this does work for low Godlike since ZEKE can rack up damage much more quickly than the above two. 4.6
Cotton- 83% Pdur, 90% Mdur, 18% Status Resistant, -0.77 SD and a whopping 7% damage. However, 70% infinite initiative healing covers a lot of flaws. Still a Light, but goodfor the division. 2.9
Kylin- ~91% Pdur, 80% Mdur, -1.17 Speed, 15.6% Damage, a little bit of Regen. Wins or loses on the skin of its teeth turn 2 ID. 3.1?
Riki- 125% Pdur, 293% Mdur, -49% to Status, -1.17 SD and 11% Damage. I allow the itemcast from his starting ring, which gives him 251% PDur and 943%! Mdur. Throwing in Cotton's infinite healing trick. The stone rate is sad, but it's like turn 5 to me so given the durability and 80% infinite healing it's effective enough. It's wacky, but given the status resistance and the durability options, it's hard to see him as even a Middle...so...4...Which needless to say, feels very weird to write.
Sei- ~107% Pdur, ~114% Mdur, 19% Phys Evade, 35% Magic Damage Evasion, lots of status immunity, some regen, but 19% damage adn -0.97 SD. HP Drain is also an option...except he might only get 1/4 of the healing there. Well, assuming he gets it all, that's 51% healing and he'd be a definite Middle.Not big on healers. 3.25
Slime- Last and least. 75% Pdur, 85% Mdur, 5% Damage, -1.07 SD. Heals 37% of its HP off its best damage which is the only thing it has going for it, but it's fragile and slow enough that it will get doubled and might just be killed. Still, beats sad Lights. 2.5
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7. Ignoring Mystic Coup d’Grace for Mystics as this changes your stat layout if it works in game, and it doesn’t work on either of the absorb monsters. By endgame, you are making your PC worse if this works in game.
This isn't true. Many enemies, including all enemy humans and mystics (read: DL-like opponents) can't be absorbed, but can be hit by the instant death. And even if it were true, it ignores the functionality of the move the rest of the game, in particular being the easiest way by far to get most absorbs. (Not the endgame ones, as you note... pretty sure I'd sooner ban those for that reason than ban mystic CdG.)
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Serenoa- 107% HP, 99% Speed, 55% Damage Twice, 47.6% Damage with 0.5 Turn Delay, Semi Weak Counters. A straightforward Middle, not super impressive. 3.25
Roland- 97% HP, 103% Speed, 105% Damage on Turn 2 (76% being ITD and coming at once). Not all that different from Serenoa, but speed and ITD is an edge. 3.35
Frederica- 92% HP but bad defense, 95% Speed. Solid 2HKO (76%) although not quite a level where many OHKOs will be grabbed. I think I've overrated the effect of elemental resistance in the past. 2.9
Benedict- Fast and physically durable, but 5HKOs sadly. 2.35
Hughette- Relatively average durability, 99% Speed. 3HKOs and can do that while inflicting an effective Blind or Don't Move. Certainly some kind of Middle. Say 3.35
Geela- 10HKOs on average. Sure, infinite healing that can sometimes heal more than 50% HP but that damage stings. Miraculous Light may spoil a few times, I think this is better than Benedict, so...2.5?
Anna- One of the two clear Heavies. 118% Speed, 2HKOs (114.4% over two turns, although a bit more spoilable by evade due to needing to hit 4 times), Sleep is turn 1 to me and has has use as might Take Cover. 3.95
Erador- 110% HP, Decent Physical Defense, horrible Mdef (but Fury helps cover that), 91% Speed. ~35% Damage with mage spoiling. I think that gets him into Middle and Desperate Defense nets him a few more wins too. 3.25
Corentin- Same basic stats as Frederica, but his 71% damage move also inflicts Silence, making him a Middle to me I think. 3.15
Rudolph- A tad slow and undurable, but 54% Damage or 96% damage over two turns where the first one inflicts Sleep. That's a nice boon that makes him a solid Middle to me. 3.5
Narve- Good in game mage with DL issues. 66% Damage that has turn 2 Paralysis to me and that's about it (other than having a physical that registers on the damage curve; still not good) and a better defensive profile. Still a decent Light. 2.8
Hossabara- Pretty average all around. A tad slow, but damage is a little above average. Desperate Defense is nice though and I think makes her borderline. 3
Julio- 107% HP, 99% Speed, 3HKOs of both types (34.5% Magic, ~42.7% Physical) plus TP Damage (for whatever that is worth. I'd see it do a limit versus FF 7, Legend of Heroes, VP...etc). 3.15
Lionel- 113% HP, 91% Speed, 4HKOs, but status! Turn 1 Fury for Healers/Mages, Turn 1 Sleep or Silence (Sleep is the one he wants. Fury already gets Mages, and Sleep means Brute Force will hit and will likely net him a 3HKO). Gut is Middle. 3.2
Piccolletta- 103% Speed, 98% HP, 5HKO damage. Everything rides on Decoy. I think I see Decoy working on ST damage if the Decoy has less durability than Piccoletta. Piccoletta will often need to take at least 2 hits in Light to be weaker than the Decoy, which has horrible stats. A weird Light, but not necessarily bad. Evade helps. 2.8
Ezana- 65.6% Lightning magic with turn 1 Paralysis. 3.4
Medina- Well, I allow some level of (bad) items. I'm just giving her the same score as Benedict. 2.35
Archibald- 90% HP, 91% Speed, 65% ITD damage though! 3.4
Milo- 98% HP, 107% Speed, 23.7% Physical Damage and 35% Magic Damage with a minor Poison. Turn 2 Evasion is nice as is turn 1 Charm. Still not an impressive Middle, but say 3.3
Groma- 86% HP, but solid defenses and 32% Evade and 110% Speed. 113% Damage total on turn 2, turn 1 Fury for Mages/Healers, Immobilize may have some use versus SR fighters. I feel like she just is slightly over the border for Heavy. 3.8
Flanagan- 119% HP, 95% Speed, about 8% Auto-Regen. Solid Pdef, bad Mdef but another fighter where turn 1 Fury helps there. 33.5% Damage. Middle. 3.25
Maxwell- 104% HP, 110% Speed, OPB Auto Life and 51.5% Damage. 4
Cordelia- Weird. Can use Above and Beyond every other turn against ST fighters, so if you don't 2HKO her you may have issues even with some anti healer stuff. 2.65? Could be misdiagnosing.
Trish- 107% Speed, 48% Fire damage that can be used twice off the bat, 33.5% Damage Otherwise or 31% consistent ITE. I think she scrapes into low Middle. 3.05
Travis- 110% HP, 95% Speed, 56% Damage. 3.15
Quahaug- 93% HP, 118% Speed, bad Defense, weird as hell. One key option:
Attack (he has to since In Due Course needs 4 procs + attack to kill)->Take hit->Stop Time->In Due Course->Enemy is stopped takes damage->in Due Course->Enemy is stopped, takes damage, stop is lifted->In Due Course->Take 2nd hit, in Due Course Procs->In Due course->Take 3rd hit, in Due Course Procs
So basically still needs to be able to take 3 hits to win, which is quite unlikely in Light someone only needs about 20% physical damage ot accomplish that. Granted, Quahaug needs effectively 5 turns to kill and might get a double...which granted just nets him 20% healing, but lets him survive a 25% Phys Damage 3HKO. So he's a kind of fast 4HKOer or something, so technically better than Medina/Benedict...edit: minus his defense making him worse I think. 2.3
Thalas- 1.49 PC HP, decent defenses, 1.111% Turn 1 Speed, 144% After, 36.3% Phys Damage, 38.8% Wind Damage (But needs 4 turns to use three times). Speed and durability gets him into low Heavy. 3.9
Erika- Basically a slightly worse Thalas with a different element. 3.85
Avlora- 1.4 PC HP, 159% long term speed, Good defenses, 57.7% Damage that goes to 75% below 50% HP. Desperate Defense definitely gets her into Godlike. 4.65
Patriette- 1.21 PC HP, 148% Long Term Speed, Nasty Blind against physical fighters (although it leaves him 4HKOing). Edged Arrow is an option, but a costly one. That said, speed is a great DL stat and I can see him at 3.8
Gustadolph- 1.34 PC HP, 148% Long Term Speed, 38% Damage, 22.7% w/ very accurate Silence or 42.4% Ice Magic (albeit one he can use only once every 3 turns). A little better than his siblings, although not too much. 3.95
Kamsell- Sad HP combined with a 3HKO keeps in Light no matter the speed. 2.8
Exharme- 1.3 PC HP, 156% Long Term Speed, 40% damage that makes him pdur a little better. Charm isn't accurate at base to help at 3 TP. 3.6
Lyla- 1.33 PC HP, 148% Long Term Speed. Weird. 42% Magic, but needs 4 turns to use three times with no free damage option. However, she also delays enemies 1 turn using that and slows them a little, so it's more like 3 turns to kill average. Stop is cute, but with the TP cost I don't see it factoring in much. Some healer busting strategies. 3.5
Idore- Some scaling could make him Bluelike, but 112.9% Turn 1 Speed and 75% HP doesn't get him there for me. 4.8. His shield clearly makes him Godlike, meaning you either need to double act or you need to be faster and OHKO him or faster than him long term (no really happening minus a great Haste spell) and outslug. 55% Damage at Worst with spikes of 75.9% (albeit all magical).
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Comedy entry time
Battlebots: World Championship VII:
I am going to preface this with saying that in all of the cases, this is a just-for-fun. Building these robots for competition is a big accomplishment, and I respect almost all of the people involved here.
Sawblaze: By raw stats alone, would be a Heavy; the prong/hammer-blade combo is consistently reliable, and can hit reliably and hard on multiple areas. The skills of the driver and weapon operator, however, lend it to be Heavy/Godlike, having been able to place surgical killing strikes that no other robot is capable of. It's not unbeatable, but it's easily one of the top picks.
HUGE: High Heavy. High power on its own, but its real advantage is the namesake size of the robot, playing spoiler to the 4WVS meta that is everywhere. Hard to get a good shot on it when its main body sits above where everyone else's weapons hit and the robot can just drive *over* most opponents.
Copperhead: Heavy. Straight-up slugfester, will just not die. The only one that really broke its weapon was HUGE, who was already running spoiler to it anyway.
Ribbot: Middle/Heavy. Offensively, it is strong as hell and can punch with the top ranks, and has inherent configuration swapping options . Defensively, it is comparably lacking. The fact that it tends to lose one side of its drive does not help. It also has some problems with being inverted.
Minotaur: High Heavy. Hits like a truck, and outside of a very specific known weakness with its weapon battery placement (exploited by Sawblaze), it's hard to kill. High pushing power and the ability to use the gyroscopic forces of its weapon to self-right only help.
Riptide: DNR. The team is a bunch of arrogant raging douchebags who don't even consider that their behavior and attitude are in fact a problem. And the captain's enabler of a father.
Witch Doctor: Heavy. Solid generalist, one of the better 4WV types. Hard to really say much else, it generally fights well and doesn't have any notable issues.
Hydra: High Heavy. Pretty much one of the best flippers in the tournament, and generally has the ability to instant-kill any robot that doesn't have an invertible configuration or a SRiMech equipped. Lack of pneumatic restrictions only helps on this front.
End Game: High Heavy. Former Champ here, it can absolutely lay claim to the damage and speed combo it has. Durability's not the greatest if it takes a direct hit, but those don't happen too often.
Lock-Jaw: Middle/Heavy. Kind of middling in regards, despite the builder and driver's pedigree. Exposed tires lead to a notable weakpoint, but has been very consistently mid.
Malice: Middle. Has power, but generally its weapon breaks too quickly and it doesn't offer much else when that weapon breaks.
HyperShock: Middle/Heavy. Reliably unreliable ball lightning with a tendency for high power off of high speed and maneuverability. Has been known to keep fighting through a lost wheel, but it is also known at times to just break down ineffectually. Has had a good run this season, though.
Whiplash: Heavy. Low damage, but high control and speed with its lifter lend to it being able to win fights without needing to inflict much damage. The driver's sheer ability with the robot does not hurt either.
Black Dragon: Heavy. A really, really nasty brick of a slugfester that can largely outlast opponents. Even when it catches on fire. Which is more often than you'd expect.
MaDCatTer: Middle/Heavy. A fairly average, albeit solid, 4WV, nothing of actual note to say. Whole lot of charisma on the end of the captain though.
Monsoon: Middle/Heavy, may be leaning on Low Heavy. This thing got a nasty upgrade since its last showing three seasons ago. The fact that it has a symmetrical hinged design that lends it full invertibility despite being a vertical blade spinner does not hurt at all.
Quantum: Heavy. Has a problem with blade verts that can get a good upshot on it as demonstrated with Ribbot, but anything else it will consistently rip into, courtesy of its hydraulic crusher. Functionally armor-piercing. Real nasty.
Cobalt: Heavy. Absolutely vicious blade vert. No invertibility but when it combines power and precision to completely dismantle other robots, it doesn't need that. Most of the time.
Claw Viper: Low Heavy: HOLY SHIT THAT SPEED. This is like the Battlebots equivalent of a WA4 boss or something as far as raw speed goes. It doesn't have any way to actually inflict damage, though, so if something lands a hit, especially on the lifter/grabber mechanism, it'll have problems winning matches.
RIPperoni: Low Heavy. Has a unique counter-flywheel mechanism that negates the usual mobility problems of verts, but pays for it in having some of the worst armor ever. It can trade blows with the likes of Copperhead, which is no mean feat, though, and getting to it usually means having to get through that weapon.
Beta: Middle/Heavy. Reid's a good driver, and the robot itself is generally solid with good torque. Hammers are just not as strong a weapon class here, though they tend to not need as much weight compared to the average spinner rig.
Lucky: Middle. No direct damage as it is a flipper, and while it is reasonably armored, it's also on the heavier and slower side, making it more difficult as a control bot.
Switchback: Middle/Heavy. SLOOOOOOOW. The articulated spinner blade arm is made for much heavier attacks than the likes of Sawblaze, sacrificing speed and precision. It can take and give out hits, but it's not winning that much in the way of speed contests.
Bloodsport: Low Heavy. One of the more vicious horizontal spinners out there. Not much in the way of actual armor, but the horizontal blade is going to hit you no matter which way you come at it, and it can put out damage. Can't take a good hit though.
RotatoR: Low Heavy. Horizontal spinner that this season has had some mechanical issues. It doesn't stop it from being an absolute tank, though.
Blip: Middle. The flipper system is unique and the robot's strength for its size is good...when it can manage a flip. It's been suffering issues the entire time this season, though.
Tantrum: Low Heavy. Former champ, but its self-righter issues are extremely glaring this time around, and it's very vulnerable to being flipped as a result. Still reasonably competent, but that flipping problem is huge.
Skorpios: High Middle. It's basically Sawblaze Lite. And as it was designed to counter horizontal spinners...well, the field is mostly verts. It can't run its counterplay.
DeathRoll: High Middle: This thing, for having no upgrades in three whole seasons, can still hit like a train. Reach is an issue on the vert, especially since it has no forks by which to actually upend a target. Solid when it can land a hit.
Jackpot: Light/Middle. It really just has not been able to keep up since its debut, and it feels like it's been falling behind more and more every season.
Shatter!: Light/Middle. In theory, the omni-wheel setup is nice, allowing it to in theory strafe with its hammer, obviating the need to hit hard. It's mobile, but it's frail and doesn't do damage.
Fusion: High Middle. It does incredible amounts of damage, especially with its hybrid setup as a horizontal/vert hybrid, but it hurts itself as much, almost invariably setting itself on fire just from having two distinct weapon systems operating in the same robot at the same time. If it doesn't get a quick knockout, it will die a horrible flaming death.
Banshee: Low Middle. It's still a flipper, which means it can still take out any robot that it hits provided they don't have invertibility or a self-righter, but it's on the slower side and prone to mechanical faliures that lead to it losing matches.
Big Dill: Light/Middle. An okayish lifter/spinner hybrid. And really prone to just fatally breaking down at the worst possible moments.
Captain Shrederator: Low Middle. Has consistently underperformed due to its longer spin-up time and tendency to self-damage, owing to its status as a shell spinner. Totally did not deserve what happened to it in the Riptide match, though.
Emulsifier: Middle. Fairly standard vert, all things considered, though it had a pretty unlucky run.
Free Shipping: Light. Lifter/flamethrower combo when the latter is more of an internal damage risk and the former needs serious speed and torque backing it.
Gigabyte: Low Middle. Shrederator trading off durability for speed. It usually ends up better than the captain on average, but it still has the shell spinner problems.
Glitch: Light. This isn't the same Glitch of the previous season, it keeps having random fatal mechanical issues. The spinner is still extremely powerful but the damn thing is disappointing. If whatever curse it was under wasn't there, it'd probably be able to rank Heavy between the spinner and omni-wheels.
Gruff: Light/Middle. One of the biggest tanks, but that's all it has going for it. Kinetic weapon offense has continued to evolve faster than the armor options on this robot, and it feels like it has been falling behind. Even its impressive flamethrowers are still a questionable weapon option.
HiJinx: High Light. This one has...not performed well. The design is sound, but the weapon is prone to breaking too quickly, and if it can't hit, it's not going to be accomplishing much.
Horizon: Puny. Gimmickbot incarnate. I still have no idea how this thing won a match.
Kraken: Light. I honestly feel bad for this one. They rigged it with a vertical blade on the arm instead of the previous crusher setup and it's still going 0-4. It's still very good at not dying though, only losing to Copperhead by KO.
Mammoth: High Light. It's an interesting flipper, able to use its size and leverage to its advantage on a rotary arm setup, but it pays for it with a complete lack of armor. Very good at control, but anything with enough punching power can inflict horrible damage to it.
Ominous: Light. I...don't remember much about this one aside from the fact that its vert blade keeps breaking. And since it only has that and an omni-wheel setup, it can't really do much afterwards. It looks awesome and the concept is solid, but that weapon's reliability needs to improve. Infamous for a match where commentary was used to advertise the *next* match rather than actually commentate.
Overhaul: Middle. Nondamaging lifter setup, but I've seen this one suplex other robots. It's not as good as Claw Viper, but it also had the humiliation of losing to...
Shreddit Bro: Puny. Its weapon has worked precisely once, and that was against Overhaul. In that one case it actually did damage, amazingly. Every other time, its weapon breaks after one hit. It was still able to win against Horizon, probably by virtue of being able to push.
Starchild: Light. In theory, it was meant to be a meta-breaker, a cross roughly between HUGE and Sawblaze in effect. The result, however, was a thwackbot that is best described as a nightmare to hit anything with. Tellingly, it never won any of its matches, and HUGE killed it in turn.
Triton: Low Middle. In theory it can deliver heavy hits with its long horizontally-mounted blade. In practice, that thing takes forever to spin up and Triton itself has terrible armor.
Valkyrie: Low Middle. It has a new driver who is not used to it, unfortunately, and while it is a destructive robot, Valkyrie is prone to breaking its own weapon on other robots. If she gets some practice, I could see a rank up for Valk.
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One may call this a necropost, but given I stat topicked the game, I feel this post is valid.
Fell Seal:Arbiter's Mark (Generics)
Mercenary: Absolutely monstrous durability, backed up by counters, debuffs that make the durability stretch further, and ways to ignore evasion and counters. After landing a debuff, the PDUR goes up to 2.39 and the MDUR to 2.03, and while their damage is nothing special, it doesn't have to be considering how consistent it gets. Easily Heavy.
Ranger: Above-average speed, okayish evasion, Don't Move (with the melee immunity it entails) and an absolute nuke of a skill on turn 4 are what Ranger brings to the table. The damage is average otherwise, with the durability below. If they survive to turn 4, though, Sniper Shot is an easy 1.12 PCHP OHKO. Normally won't live that long, though. Middle.
Scoundrel: Sneak Attack is precisely what saves them from a 4HKO. One could argue stacking bleed from Arterial Cut and the poison from Worm's Tooth (which amounts to roughly 32.5% mHP damage a turn) could wear some down, but they give up 3HKO base damage to try for this. I guess they can counter buffers by stealing said buffs, which is a niche spoiler trick, but not enough to get them out of Middle.
Peddler: I'll just be up front, traps are an interp nightmare. They are carried by Item Potency and Patented Usage, hard. However, those aren't a joke. Two shots of full healing and three shots of ~55% healing are pretty big. Also Rock for the Throw Stone meme value. Fairly average outside of that, but that is some of the best healing in FS, I'd argue a high Middle.
Mender: lol slapfight healer and the strong heal only hits about 60%. Get thee to Light.
Plague Doctor: Spoils those reliant on basic elements! As well as anyone leveraging Poison status! A fire/ice/lightning caster can get completely walled. Unfortunately, the damage is 5HKO at best, they're relying on poison most of the time, the healing sucks, and the durability is only above-average. I'm going to say Light, though maybe borderline Middle.
Wizard: For the fact that they're slow and frail (literally getting 2HKO'ed by barely above average physical damage), they don't really hit hard. Wizard kind of sucks, though rod+robe means they can still mess with elements. Light
Gambler: Cards are unpredictable, but that's not what gets them where they are. Allure can be used every turn, and Initiative gives them one turn if they're outsped, or two if they're not. Pile On lets them do rude things as well, and while not a fatal status, Charm is fairly nasty here considering it's not the most common ailment. Heavy is my gut check here.
Gadgeteer: Gadgeteer disappoints me. It disappoints me because they have an amazingly varied toolset and can't use half of it in a duel, reducing them to an above-average durability, low 3HKOing slugger with a dispel and a surprisingly competent MP-buster. They're still good enough to hover around Middle.
Knight: Knights are dicks. No Flank gives them a deceptively high amount of durability, and Taunt will absolutely destroy battle strategies with 100% rate berserk. Combine this with regenerating an effective 0.23 PCHP a turn (0.14 raw) and they can spoil, hard. Heavy. That strategy is just too reliable most of the time.
Templar: Templars are...in a weird spot. Slow, and less tanky than expected. On the other hand, Evade Attack makes them the bane of so many duellers, and once they can hit that 24 MP threshold, just about anything can threaten a 2HKO thanks to Righteous Blade's absolutely cracked values. Or they can just Rapturous Chant one up to well above. Heavy is where I'd kneejerk them, though probably on the lower end.
Duelist: oh god. Resourceless 2HKOs that only get stronger with use, running off of above-average speed. Also the more Duelist attacks, the harder they hit, ensuring they will eventually break heal locks. Heavy.
Reaver: They threaten a 2HKO off of any of their general-use abilities. Also Desperate Blow hits OHKO at about the 70% mark for them; if you can't chip around that, you're dead. Heavy
Gunner: The variety of their statuses is solid, and the disabling ones are at an arguable borderline turn 1. The durability is subpar at best, though, speed is only barely above average, and their best damage is a 4HKO. Having access to both Mute and Cripple can lead to some shenanigans, though, so I figure Gunner's in Middle.
Fellblade: Evade Magic. Really that's most of what needs to be said. Also a reasonable variety of disabling and debilitating statuses off of high accuracy thanks to Malice, the ability to wring better odds out of status daggers, and a lifedrain spell. And Chaos Slice for the rest. Honestly though, I'd still say they're more of a borderline Middle/Heavy.
Assassin: Mirage alone is enough in this case, off of their speed. 2HKOing on top of that just makes things worse. Heavy, and can spoil some Godlikes.
Alchemystic: Their best damage is a 5HKO, but frankly I'm going to rule the same as Assassin. Heavy. The gimmick is just too good, and unlike Assassin, they don't have to dedicate turns to it.
Sorcerer: They take two turns minimum to cast a spell that does 3HKO damage, between which they have 8HKO staffwhacks. You know exactly where they go. Go lose slapfights with Mender in Light.
Druid: Everything about Druid is frankly average at best. Magic damage is average, durability is below-average to average, speed is just below average. Waste of a high MND stat and one of the universally best abilities in JRPGs, truly. Middle.
Warmage: You will think that the just below-average speed means that Warmage will lose the first turn and in most cases be fighting to get a 2HKO. And technically, yes, that is the case. Haste counters mean that that second turn may well come before the opponent's, though, and that will lead to some guaranteed pain as they leverage said 2HKO. Heavy would be my kneejerk.
Werewolf: For the most part, Werewolf has some problems, mostly on the durability side. Blood Trophy means that they threaten a 2HKO with basic physicals, though, with Focused Rage letting them have an upper limit to how long an opponent can stall out with healing, and that plus just above average speed means I have a hard time putting them above Middle/Heavy.
Vampire: They wish they had the Scoundrel skillset honestly. Night Embrace hits like a truck and will sleep anyone who gets hit as well, but in order to get that Bleed conditional, they have to spend MP, making it Turn 4 in effect. Mute counters are a nasty trick, but honestly I don't feel I can, in good faith, place it any higher than Middle.
Lich: High risk high reward duelist, and they rely on burning their own HP for spells. On the plus side, those are some of the strongest spells in the roster, nearly able to crank out an OHKO (and under the single-action average, does.) Middle/Heavy.
Vessel: Look, I'm just going to be honest. It doesn't matter how hard you hit. If you're slow, have sub-0.8 durability on both fronts, and can't OHKO, you're not getting out of Light.
Princess: Total Shield Counters make them more durable than they look, but not much more so. And while the healing is strong, the damage is...okay. They really wish they had actual MP to leverage Double Cast II, especially considering they have only a basic offensive spell to cast at a surplus. She really wishes a Holy-boosting weapon existed. Middle, and probably just carried by Equip All more than anything else.
Lord: Honestly, Lord is "Mercenary but with more flash and more hoops to jump through". They can bury the other guy in enough debuffs that they actually get close to Mercenary's durability (and Total Shield counters help), but their damage never really gets above 3HKO and they start out a lot squishier. I'd put them as Middle, possibly borderline considering Equip All allows for dumb spoiling shenanigans.