The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 24, 2009, 04:42:27 AM
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C)
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2)
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8)
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4)
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos)
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8)
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5)
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX)
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2)
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3)
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT)
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC)
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS)
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C)
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)- Nate's very likely getting OHKOed before he can move. Even if he can't, high end fighters kick his ass.
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8)- Kneejerking against Empy's magic damage.
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4)- Exact same thing as Edge vs Groudon. He really spoils Pokemon legendaries.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos)- Kasumi can't 2HKO and that's that.
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8)- MT magic. Bye Joshua.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)- Far more respect as a slugger.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5)- Mathed this one out with Snow, but basically Ryudo needs more SP and damage to swing this. Sad.
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX)- X-2 Rikku is a one status wonder, FFX Rikku needs to go away.
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2)- Tanks everything Red can do. He can OHKO past a limit and can at least heal.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3)- Massimo needs a OHKO and I don't think he quite gets it. Elaine's healing curing status really helps here.
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT)- Range matters in both systems! And Opera has a massive advantage here. Goodbye Miluda.
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH)- Walls Leena's best damage, is otherwise superior.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC)- Kneejerk.
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Godlike
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - Nate would require Charm or Sleep to land turn 1 and last lnog enough for him to make it severe in intensity. Aegis Shield sez no.
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Highly leaning Brahms.
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4) - Uh.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos) - Might 2HKO, but Nina's faster I think.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Buffing game.
Middle
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2) - Leaning Red, but unsure.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3) - Uh.
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT) - LFT Miluda. NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION YOU ALIEN SCUM.
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC)
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I know it's a joke, but LFT Miluda's pretty much unchanged.
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Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4)
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS)
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Innate defenses up~ Clearly this outdoes whatever that ALIEN SCUM can manage~
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C): I think Tiamat can outstall this without too much trouble? Ryu might actually run into a serious problem here if not since Invincible just rapes the really nasty (i.e. really expensive) dragons.
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2): Much better at this overkilling thing.
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8): VP2 Brahms, sure.
Heavy
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos): Kasumi is faster and ITE and might 2HKO but I doubt it. Kasumi really needs that 2HKO I think.
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8): Boom.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5): Cuter. (also a better dueler, which helps).
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX): Status off of 140% + speed or whatever she had.
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2): Not thinking too hard here.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3)
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT): See Red v Dekar.
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH): Healing or... something.
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS): Colette should be familiar with this whole control schitck.
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Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT) - LFT Miluda. NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION YOU ALIEN SCUM.
Thank you, Tai. I needed that. ^_^
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Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C) - Stalling isn't one of Ryu's problems.
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - EDIT: She can't doubleact Zap? Meeplina.
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4) - hurf.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos) - EDIT: so, Kasumi actually 2HKOs. Nevermind.
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8) - Frying.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - EDIT: Nope, he doesn't make it. Tony has like 1.7x PC HP for effective pdur to me.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5) - Ryudo: getting owned by eight shots of 45% healing since season 1.
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX) - For the people who respect Rikku common steals and allow full status blocking accessories: unless she gets ID from those things, Elly just equips a Mind and a Body blocker and immunes every thing Rikku can do. Given how Rikku herself is sleep-bait and Lunar Rod is broken, um yeah. I don't even respect that, so Rikku just dies.
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2) - I guess. This match sucks given neither wants to hit each other, though.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3) - Think all Massimo needs is to heal-lock. Elaine's offense is just poor, and while evade can be an issue sometimes, and he may even OHKO... yeah.
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT) - I guess. Could definitely be argued, though, Opera like 4HKOs average and Miluda could still hope to outslug
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH) - Man, screw you Zhuzhen.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC) - Kneejerk is CC is just too limited on its offense, and Steena wasn't one of the good physicallers.
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C)
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8): Empyrea does like 380 damage with 6 zaps, HP faced is 280. Decently likely to kill, but not guaranteed, and Brahms may get a PWS with two turns anyway since empyrea's not chipping. I dunno, Empyrea has a shot but it feels like an outside one.
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4): Might go first, might survive being pounded on while asleep once, might not even get statused out. If any of those things happen he wins, since one turn is enough for him. Too many things can go wrong for edge here.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos)
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8): 2-rounds and evades something.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN): Ray's just not really good at prolonged slugfests. He's all about the fast kill which he can't have here.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5)
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX)
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2): Yeah I don't ever see an L2 happening here. It would be needed.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3): Rigs up an OHKO.
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT)
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC)
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS)
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C)- Guess he has some non-stat topiced form that wins.
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2)
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8)- 6 Zaps Monkey? She can't even double Zap, so she'd need 6 turns to pull that off.
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4)- Sleep lock works pretty well
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos)
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8)- Joshua does not evade her L2 spell on turn 1. And turn the ID hits him.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5)- Curse you Ryudo!!!!
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX)- Yes, Rikku gets ID. Yes, Rikku for Godlike!
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2)
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3)
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT)- Don't want think
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC)- Hmm, crunch this out later. Sure it's pretty clear one way or the other when I do that!
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS)- Probably 2HKOs.
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Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos) - Actually calced this a while ago. Kasumi does -not- 2HKO, her damage is like 42% to average. Given how faster she is, she is actually getting some doubles, but without 2HKOing, they're ultimately meaningless.
Wow... how did she beat Zelos again?
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C) - Elc.
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2) - Fereydoon. Hits her worse defensive stat.
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - Nate.
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Brahms.
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4) - Edge.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos) - Nina. You suck, Kasumi!
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8) - Lyon
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Tony.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5) - Miakis - arguably Ryudo, since 4500 damage is like 10x Miakis HP, but whatever!
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Either Body/Mind blocker guarded Stop in XG? At worst FFX2 Rikku has a faster Stop, and I think could get immunity to sleep (maybe? Tonfa?). I don't see how this is Elly's fight at all - I mean, hell, FFX form just customizes a shield with a status immunity on it (if you allow that like I do). Not even close.
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2) - Nanaki. Storebought materia is storebought, so I figure I should start allowing it.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3) - Massimo smashes the world.
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT) - Opera. Healing Star!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH) - Zhuzhen.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC) - Cinnamon. Don't think even allowing all storebought elements helps here.
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS) - Relm. Control wins the world. Alternatively, Sketching, uses Falcon Crest, kills.
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Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos) - Actually calced this a while ago. Kasumi does -not- 2HKO, her damage is like 42% to average. Given how faster she is, she is actually getting some doubles, but without 2HKOing, they're ultimately meaningless.
Wow... how did she beat Zelos again?
Kasumi has absurd speed - as in 3-2s average with some leeway to spare absurd depending on how you view TB speed. That+3HKO = actually respectable offense, and doesn't sound like Zelos is even appreciably fast unless your interp on ARPG fighter speed is something like Monkey's, nor does it look like he's durable enough to withstand about 126% PC HP before he gets a second turn. So, he'd have to OHKO or bust, and Kasumi isn't even appreciably below average pdur. She had an argument, and given how much backlash Zelos has gotten over time, the possibility seemed all it needed for her to get a win that could definitely be argued either way.
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Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8)- 6 Zaps Monkey? She can't even double Zap, so she'd need 6 turns to pull that off.
She can double anything, hazy and not really testable in-game AI obscurities be damned.
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Re: Colette vs. Relm. Ignoring Control... Relm apparently halves lightning, and Para Ball is a pretty important part of Colette's damage. Granted, I could go test Hammer Rain and end up with Colette not caring either way, but it's worth noting.
Well, and Relm might not 3HKO anyways, which means she loses a slugfest.
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Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Either Body/Mind blocker guarded Stop in XG? At worst FFX2 Rikku has a faster Stop, and I think could get immunity to sleep (maybe? Tonfa?). I don't see how this is Elly's fight at all - I mean, hell, FFX form just customizes a shield with a status immunity on it (if you allow that like I do). Not even close.
Yes, they block everything but HP absorption based death moves.
Even worst case. You give Rikku all of that. (and saw something getting through, turn one) What's to stop Elly from doing something like putting on Speed Shoes and going for a turn/move one sleep? (50 vs. 50) I'm just saying... if you let Rikku get all of that stuff.
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Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3) - Think all Massimo needs is to heal-lock. Elaine's offense is just poor, and while evade can be an issue sometimes, and he may even OHKO... yeah.
All Elaine needs to do is take one combo, which she... can't do. Wow. Massimo needs to use a full, 100% WP Berserk charge for that though. How long does it take to charge up? Stat topic doesn't say.
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT) - I guess. Could definitely be argued, though, Opera like 4HKOs average and Miluda could still hope to outslug.
Miluda could get a lucky shield guard, but so could Opera. Range does feel like the tiebreak here. In either game's system, a ranged fighter vs a slower, melee fighter results in the melee fighter getting slaughtered. I have no problem holding that against Miluda here. Boss HP scaling also comes into play. Opera's healing mostly sucks, but it could also see some use here depending on how long the fight goes for.
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super: that's more or less my gut on the fight anyhow. Dunno, sorta feels weird giving Miluda credit, and Opera's range trivializes Miluda's main threat here.
On Elaine vs. Massimo: I think Massimo gets 25% WE per turn, starts with 20% and gets his first turn at 45%. So, he should have a 100% WE combo by his fourth turn, his third being at 95%. Given Elaine damage and his Hyper Mode durability boost, killing him before -that- happens is going to be a tricky proposition, given how it's quite possible that his physicals under that force her to heal when she connects, and she's going to need to heal at least once to stave that threat off, so she's unlikely to kill in time. Yeah, think he's got the match.
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Well, and Relm might not 3HKO anyways, which means she loses a slugfest.
Relm 5HKOs average. That's with Man Eater's damage bonus against humans, in case you're wondering.
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Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3) - Think all Massimo needs is to heal-lock. Elaine's offense is just poor, and while evade can be an issue sometimes, and he may even OHKO... yeah.
All Elaine needs to do is take one combo, which she... can't do. Wow. Massimo needs to use a full, 100% WP Berserk charge for that though. How long does it take to charge up? Stat topic doesn't say.
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT) - I guess. Could definitely be argued, though, Opera like 4HKOs average and Miluda could still hope to outslug.
Miluda could get a lucky shield guard, but so could Opera. Range does feel like the tiebreak here. In either game's system, a ranged fighter vs a slower, melee fighter results in the melee fighter getting slaughtered. I have no problem holding that against Miluda here. Boss HP scaling also comes into play. Opera's healing mostly sucks, but it could also see some use here depending on how long the fight goes for.
Stat topic does say! It's exactly what the Brazilian said. Innate WE+25% per turn (except for turns where thou hast been defending prior to the initiation of the action phase, or in certain Hyper Modes where the gain is increased). To utilize an action trigger, a level of weapon energy of > or = to 50% is required on the turn it is to be acted upon with the triggerness
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Hyper mode gives massimo 37% gain, so switching when he has 70 (second turn, right?) will let him unload 20,000 damage on his third turn.
MMXCM damage average is roughly 6500 to me.
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Correctamundo, my liege
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Relm 5HKOs average. That's with Man Eater's damage bonus against humans, in case you're wondering.
The average that most people use for ToS doesn't even include the Last Fencer/Pow Hammer DX weapons boost to humans, so I don't think that Man eater bonuses in the average should be held against Relm here, at the very least (I also don't think front row should be default but thats another story).
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Yeah, taking the Man Eater out...not sure how much that changes the damage, but it probably bumps her up to the next range, I would guess. I don't consider them standard myself, since not everything is human, but...eh.
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Godlike
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2): Electrocutes. Even if Ferey gets off his super move every turn (which seems unlikely but I'd have to think about it) he'll lose this one, since FA's OHKO is bigger and she has better HP, and goes first (and Ferey ignores her defence).
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8): VP2 Brahms. VP1 I'd vote over Empy, granted. Just not too comfortable with an optional boss the game suggests you shouldn't fight, now that a clearly legal form has appeared.
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4): Hmm. Thinking Edge goes first and applies a status... but Ho-oh is going to wake up at some point. The question is, when he wakes up, does he still have a hit to spare? If so, Safeguard -> Recover -> mock. If not, the Safeguard is met with a fatal blow, or healing is met with more status. Need to figure out exactly where I see Edge's damage. Any help here would be appreciated.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos): I'm skeptical. Nina4 isn't quite average pdur, I don't think - the def is horrible. Interested to see Snow's calcs. I'll work on some myself later, maybe.
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8): Joshua's evade isn't that great, the Res is horrid, so turn 1 ID when it hits, which is either turn 1 or turn 2.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN): Ray is getting 2HKOed, and doesn't win even with a natural 3-2, which he may not get. Yeah, Monkey's entirely correct here.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5): Go away, Ryudo.
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX): No idea how stolen items became legal to so many people. I'd be more accepting of such votes if people could tell me the one enemy from whom the ID item can be stolen! Yeah, one rarish enemy in the final dungeon = hell no.
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2): Was about to vote Dekar here, but then remembered Lunatic High. Dekar can't reasonably avoid a L1, I don't think. So Red gets an opening attack, Dekar triggers Lunatic, Red has evade to dodge one attack and haste, now. There's an.. odd situation here, if they both turtle. Dekar effectively can't heal until Red has attacked him three times (twice + extra turn due to being slower), so never wants to be caught in a doubleturn where the fourth hit will kill. If he sits there, he can theoretically avoid this until haste runs out. Do I let him do this? mmf
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3): Can't believe how much I underrated Massimo. This is a solid enough half and he's going to the finals without breaking a sweat.
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT): Aiel hype works. Sure, whatever.
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH): If someone wants to analyse this, that'd be cool. I am too lazy. Kneejerk is Leena but that's not how most people are voting, so dunno.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC): Will wait for Dhyer.
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Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos): I'm skeptical. Nina4 isn't quite average pdur, I don't think - the def is horrible. Interested to see Snow's calcs. I'll work on some myself later, maybe.
Nina has an innate 25% resistance to all physical attacks on top of her defense. Stat topic notes she is closer to Cray and Ershin in defense than Ursula.
Godlike
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2)
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4) - Ho-oh gets a Safeguard off. Edge doesn't kill in time.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos) - Doesn't get 2HKOd by Kasumi's otherwise 3HKO damage.
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8) - Lyon goes first, MTs, and I don't think Joshua can OHKO her, whereas Lyon 2HKOs and doesn't suffer counters.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5)
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Think she can beat Rikku even without sleep? I allow Elly's sleep though, so it's a moot point.
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2) - Smashes.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3) - oh. uh. what.
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT) - Did Miluda have Weapon Break?
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC)
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS)
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C) - Maybe I'm missing something, but does Elc go first and just L3 Invincible -> Mind Buster x2 to kill all of Ryu's AP? I know he's still got Bonebreak, but without a dragon form to use it in, I don't think it OHKOs, and Elc can start up the Divide cheese. Since everyone else is voting the other way I'm now REALLY unsure here, but this is how it loooks to go to me from a glance at the stat topics.
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2)
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - Aegis Sheild mocks Nate's dire need to hit status turn 1.
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - VP1 Brahms takes it.
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4) - Decent Ho-Oh respect, kneejerking that he gets a Safeguard off and goes to work.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos) - Not entirely sure here. I think Nina's phys resistance lets her survive 2 Shrikes.
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8) - One sided. Next.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - See the Elf.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5) - Man does the G2 damage curve ever fail.
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Need to brush up on Rikku's status blocking options.
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2) - Uh, gonna kneejerk letting him wait out Lunatic High, sure.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3) - SPLAT
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT) - Not thinking about this one too much.
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH) - I allow storebought elements of the character's color.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC) - See above, except I'm not sure if this lets Steena win. Will need to check.
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS) - not much to say.
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Gate, Ryu's armor makes him immune to MP damage.
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Gate: Ryu 3 has an armor that protects against MP damage.
Granted, that goes away if he enters a non-status immune dragon form, but he has a cheap (?) one in Tiamat that he should be able to use to outlast Elc's MP. Things get messier if this isn't the case.
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Ah, is that the Force Armor down in the alt setups?
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Correct.
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Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4): Hmm. Thinking Edge goes first and applies a status... but Ho-oh is going to wake up at some point. The question is, when he wakes up, does he still have a hit to spare? If so, Safeguard -> Recover -> mock. If not, the Safeguard is met with a fatal blow, or healing is met with more status. Need to figure out exactly where I see Edge's damage. Any help here would be appreciated.
I'd be surprised if he does. IIRC Edge gets 3~ turns to attack before the target wakes up, and Ho-Oh doesn't have the raw HP to cruise through that.
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH): If someone wants to analyse this, that'd be cool. I am too lazy. Kneejerk is Leena but that's not how most people are voting, so dunno.
The fight is a complete slaughter. Zhuzhen halves Leena's tech damage (and Leena's physical chaining hits are pretty terrible to start with, she is way below average damage and has one tech that does damage), he hits a weakness and 2HKOs her with ease with Flames of Rudo. Leena's pretty scrubby even for a CC light.
Note for Gate: Storebought elements change nothing here. Zhuzhen still a 2HKO and nothing Leena has will break it, with her elemental damage walled off and elemental eating her AP up.
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2): Was about to vote Dekar here, but then remembered Lunatic High. Dekar can't reasonably avoid a L1, I don't think. So Red gets an opening attack, Dekar triggers Lunatic, Red has evade to dodge one attack and haste, now. There's an.. odd situation here, if they both turtle. Dekar effectively can't heal until Red has attacked him three times (twice + extra turn due to being slower), so never wants to be caught in a doubleturn where the fourth hit will kill. If he sits there, he can theoretically avoid this until haste runs out. Do I let him do this? mmf
I don't think Red 3HKOs Dekar unless you completely ignore limits in the average, and then it's pretty close if he does. I don't think Red can win in that situation regardless.
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Relm 5HKOs average. That's with Man Eater's damage bonus against humans, in case you're wondering.
The average that most people use for ToS doesn't even include the Last Fencer/Pow Hammer DX weapons boost to humans, so I don't think that Man eater bonuses in the average should be held against Relm here, at the very least (I also don't think front row should be default but thats another story).
In fairness, include the man-eater style bonuses in both games when considering the people who use the Maneaters.
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Dhyer, all I was saying was that you can't include the damage vs. humans in the FF6 average and then ignore it in the ToS average. I'm not sure what you are talking about there.
Personally I don't consider it in either game's average.
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Godlike
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2)- As much as I am rooting for Fereydoon, there's no way I can in good conscience vote on him here. FA outtanks him and outdamages him too much.
Heavy
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos)- Tossup... does Kasumi benefit at all from opting for her speed equips, or would she run the risk of getting flat OHKO'd?
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8)- Boo Lyon.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5)- Chat decided this one.
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX)
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT)- Kneejerk
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH)- This one's kind of a duh.
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Tossup... does Kasumi benefit at all from opting for her speed equips, or would she run the risk of getting flat OHKO'd?
BoF4 damage:
6.Nina (1500)
Average: 2600
An OHKO is not a problem.
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Fumas do 4,400 damage in both non-DS versions. With everything factored in, average is a bit over 6,000 in FF4o and a bit under 5,500 in FF4a.
If you go by FF4o, Edge barely 4HKOs average. Ho-Oh should reduce that to a 5HKO, he has HP.
If you go by FF4a, Edge has a snowball's chance in hell of going first because of the new PCs and their speed boosting equips that raise the average by like 10.
If you go by FF4DS, Edge has about 2x average damage, but no status and his MDef is actually bad rather than just looking bad. Ho-oh takes 1 hit from that form then OHKOs.
I think only his original form has a shot. If he's particularly close to a 4HKO with fumas, that opening sleep-inducing physical might push it over the edge.
I'm inclined to go by DS these days, so... yeah.
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Tossup... does Kasumi benefit at all from opting for her speed equips, or would she run the risk of getting flat OHKO'd?
BoF4 damage:
6.Nina (1500)
Average: 2600
An OHKO is not a problem.
Well, thats one half of it. The question then becomes does she gain a tangible benefit from it? Does this let her slip a third turn in?
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Edge is like 125% speed in the FF4a version (effective 75 speed to 60 average). Gen 2 Ho'oh is +0.78 SD, so not even faster via 25% SDs.
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4a average is that low? sure thing bro.
...Wait, right, Cid.
So that would come down to how much you respect FF4 ATB speed at all, then. Decent shot for edge though. But ultimately irrelevant to me because 4a is the only version I haven't played.
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Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos): I'm skeptical. Nina4 isn't quite average pdur, I don't think - the def is horrible. Interested to see Snow's calcs. I'll work on some myself later, maybe.
/me works on some raw HP looks, and checks the defense.
Meep's default setup has Nina at 223 defense to an average of 250. Game-worst, definitely, but, bizarrely, I expected a far wider curve than what I see here (although the defense in practice easily could have a bigger effect than the curve suggests. Nina4 has 89% average defense, don't know exactly how this translates). However, I can't do all that much without knowing somewhat precise effects of pdef in BoF4: applying the physical resistance directly to the HP mod and assuming average pdef, Nina4 ends up slightly above average pdur.
-If- the practical effect of defense in the curve is only very slightly higher, or roughly the same, or slightly below what the numbers suggest, Kasumi still misses the 2HKO on both games - 41% damage to average in S2, deals 45%-46% damage to that theoretical durability after all factors are applied. S1 Kasumi deals 41.5% to average, so roughly the same spread. This assumes Nina's defenses makes her take hits 11% worse than average, which obviously can be innacurate, but, as long as Nina4's effective pdur is -above- 1.21, she avoids the 2HKO safely. I might add that Kasumi in Suikoden 2 doesn't even ignore evade and is about average accuracy after Shrike's accuracy penalty applies, so she starts ramming into Nina4's 25% evade. Don't think S2 Shrike has Falcon's crit properties either (this being potentially relevant because I believe you vote on S2 Suikoers from the first two games in the series besides Tir). If you know how BoF4 defense works, I'll be glad to see you work it out, because the match very much hinges on this.
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One point of BoF4 defence = 10 points of damage taken. It's a very potent stat. Roughly, I think it should cancel out the physical resistance (though it may fall a bit short), and leave Nina with just her HP as her pdur, or maybe something a bit better. Still, Kasumi's damage is worse than I thought, so maybe the kneejerk was wrong.
Super: I was most certainly assuming Red 4HKOs. If he -were- to 3HKO, the match would be a slaughter in his favour: Attack -> Sled Fang, Attack before Dekar can 2HKO.
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Idly, what statuses can Massimo inflict with that column? It doesn't matter this week but it might next.
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/me actually recalcs off that information.
... ahahahahaha wow, this is horrible. You're right, Nina's pdur is roughly her HP, and that gets her 2HKOed by average physicals (1.33x pdur, roughly). Yeah no, I'm changing my vote here.
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Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4): Hmm. Thinking Edge goes first and applies a status... but Ho-oh is going to wake up at some point. The question is, when he wakes up, does he still have a hit to spare? If so, Safeguard -> Recover -> mock. If not, the Safeguard is met with a fatal blow, or healing is met with more status. Need to figure out exactly where I see Edge's damage. Any help here would be appreciated.
Additionally, I'd like to have the Status percentages for CatClaw verified. The "Hit to Spare" point becomes moot if Edge doesn't have a high enough status to make the 2nd hit stick the status even when the 1st hit does. (My old standard was 68% for Hit 1, 95% for Hits 1 AND 2 (as opposed to a hit on 1, miss on 2), 98% for Always Hit. I'm actually taking Stats now, so my opinion could be subject to adjustment.)
If Edge is using throwing weapons that aren't restricted, then Pressure is useless vs another .38 SD in speed (which I take to be an extra 3% being Turn-based vs Active time...), which buys enough time to prevent the double from occurring before Ho-oh can both Recover and put up Safeguard.
EDIT: Monkey: Per RPGClassics, it's Blind, Virus, Bind, and Beserk. By my recollection, they're added in that order too (i.e. Beserk is only tested if you get all 4 rows charged in the Status Column, Blind takes effect with 1, etc. Should test if I have the time... Projects and all...)
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I tested the Catclaws. I'm very sure on the accuracy. It rarely misses (stat topic sites it around 90%, that's close enough to right.) Edge has very high accuracy/hits which is what the status on the claws run off of.
Re: Red- Any reason why he wouldn't just go for the Gladius and try to delay for a Holy Energy? That may well not trigger an L1 limit on the first hit and Berserker/holy energy can be used to chip.
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Might as well...
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4) - Think Ho-oh has to OHKO here in order to win and I'm pretty sure he doesn't
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8) - At worst, Lyon busts out Vermillion Sky. Josh can't counter MT, but seriously don't think it matters here since I don't think he doubles and yeah his M.def is bad.
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Monkey's pretty spot on for this one yeah. Ray's a blitz cannon (his match last week with Cristo kinda showed that). Tony doesn't get 2HKO'd and that is that.
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5) - Snow, Super, Sage and I hashed this out one night in chat. It basically came down to Miakis being faster and Ryudo lacking enough SP to put consistent pressure on Miakis. Ryudo gets owned by Shield Rune's 45% healing. Awesome.
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Allowing Sleep wards I can see and probably makes this closer (Sleep proof is a no go for me). Although kneejerk is Elly manages to keep Sleep applied consistently through light attack spamming and then attacking with Ethers on turns when Rikku is asleep.
Light
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH) - Super's analysis works for me.
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC) - I...think. Unless Steena manages to heal lock with her basic physical chain. If she does...would depend on Cinnamon evade and whether or not she could do it consistently.
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Elc (AtL:C)
Fereydoon (WA5) vs. False Althena (Lunar 2)
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Brahms (VPs) vs Empyrea (DQ8)- Never gonna give you up~~
Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4)- You people and your allowing weapons that leave with a party member who actually uses them.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos)- Never gonna let you down~~
Lyon (S5) vs Joshua (FE8)- Never gonna tell a lie~~
Tony Eisler (MK) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)- And hurt you~~!
Middle
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5)- Ryudo's a joke~
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX)
Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2)
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Elaine (S3)
Light
Opera Vectra (SO2) vs. Miluda Folles (FFT)
Leena (CC) vs. Zhuzhen Liu (SH)
Cinnamon (MMXCM) vs Steena (CC)
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS)
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Catclaws are dropped from a random enemy.
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What's their rate of drop?
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/me calcs the Edge/Ho-oh fight.
Okay. Edge goes first, statuses, deals 8% to Ho-oh, sleeps. Now, assuming Edge gets three Fumas in, he deals 31% to average per Fuma. Ho-oh has 116% HP, so that's roughly 26%. 26%*3 = 78%, +8%, he just dealt 86% of Ho-oh's health when he wakes up. This means that the next Fuma is fatal if Ho-oh doesn't heal, and if Ho-oh heals, Edge just reapplies sleep and now ends the fight. Yeah, it's actually Edge's fight unless you see Sleep lasting less than three of Edge's turns.
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What's their rate of drop?
1/128 or so off a couple of really common enemies. (1/64 but enemies won't always drop stuff.)
I've had multiple show up on a playthrough, in practice, and they're not really that uncommon to see; the couple of enemies that drop them...I know one of them was common, but IIRC the other one practically infests Babel Tower's lower levels and that was long as hell.
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Meeple told me that there is also one in the Sylph Cave, which is something I might actually consider allowing. What's the situation there?
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It's in a treasure chest near Yang along with the poison/hell claw. The Charm claw is the unique one.
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Yeah, in theory it's supposed to be the claw Yang's wearing when he leaves, I think.
In practice those two claws will be there if you unequip Yang before he leaves, and there's no battles between Yang leaving and you unequipping him, so. FF4 wasn't advanced enough for things like variable equipment in chests I guess.
Regardless, those two chests are basically there to give Edge claws as far as I can tell. Yang's in a coma right next to them after all. >_>
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On the other hand, it would be against the great teachings of Barney to STEAL something from someone else while they're sick in bed. I mean, assholes >_>
So yeah, no claws for Edge if you believe in being a GOOD PERSON
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Actually I think he tells you to take the chests when he wakes up.
I mean, I might be recalling this wrong but yeah.
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if you believe in being a GOOD PERSON
If we believed in that, we wouldn't be forcing world-saving heroes to fight eachother to the death for our amusement.
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if you believe in being a GOOD PERSON
If we believed in that, we wouldn't be forcing world-saving heroes to fight eachother to the death for our amusement.
Oh man, I laughed. I'm tempted to quote that.
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Golden yeah. Dooo eet Piggy!
I dunno Leena receives healz and Turn Blue + Anti Red w/th blue elements. She also has that special restore elements tech thingy. Depending on those factors and/or auto revive respect from Leena's ultimate (someone should check if that thing actually does revive) Zhuzhen might be given a run for his money. Might turn it into a decent fight at least though I don't really know if Leena could win or not. Plus feel free to ignore rabit CTs on CT baits >_>
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99nmlSTmwHM&feature=PlayList&p=6A8985022DEDC924&index=51&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL
Not quite proof, but it only took 10 seconds of searching.
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Heavy
Ho-oh (Pokemon) vs. Edward "Edge" Geraldine (FF4) - Ho-oh can learn Rest... via TM (an easily attainable, before post-game TM too, if you care). Is that DL legal? If so, Rest/Safeguard/Recover/Sacred Fire gets him around the sleep average shenanigans (as does Sleep Talk/Recover/Sacred Fire/(filler or nothing) - may be better and everything I said for the Rest TM applies to Sleep Talk too), and DS Edge just dies to Sacred Fire.
Nina Wyndia (BoF4) vs. Kasumi (Suikos) - 2HKOs first, apparently.
Middle
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Body/Mind Blocker? I forgot about those. Elly wins here.
Light
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Colette Brunel (ToS) - Still undecided. Leaning toward Relm.
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TMs generally aren't considered DL-legal. I can see an argument if only a small proportion of the cast could learn it, but I think a lot of pokemon can learn Rest that way.
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Rest is a universal TM (aside from things like Magikarp that can't use TMs) and there's only one copy per game in GSC. It's about as legal as Knights of the Round is for the FF7 cast.
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Sleep Talk might be more interesting for this particular match, although I'm pretty sure it's fairly widespread as well (if not so much so as "Everything but Regilol learns it" Rest).
That said, for the most part I think allowing TMs/Move Tutors for anything but cases of only one pokemon/evolution line learning it (I don't think there's any such cases past Soft Boiled in Gen1?) is pretty hard sell to the DL, but I doubt anyone's going to get worked up over someone voting that way.
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Notable matches:
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5) - Not going to math it out, but I normally use a fairly generously low damage average for Grandia II due to their SP issues, and it might be enough to put Ryudo over the top.
Elhaym van Houten (XG) vs. Rikku (FFX) - Well, Al-Bhed Potions are legal! I think I could even be persuaded that all Mixes are legal as well (weird as it is that she can use items then she can't normally), which would make Rikku a pretty badass Middle - stall off Alchemist-backed healing until a broken Mix - but even with 50% Sleep Protection her stalling game is just lost here.
Wow... how did she beat Zelos again?
This was already covered, but figured I'd chip in anyway. That was a bit of a rob IMO, although she does have an argument. Weird, but guess it's a backlash against Tales hype earlier. Checking the Suiko 1 stat topic, Kasumi is 157% average speed... so if TB speed is taken totally literally and Zelos is perfectly average and Zelos doesn't OHKO, that is a an immediate 3:2 which is probably a kill. Problem with this is, while it's been a long time, I believe that there is a random element added to Suiko1 initiative - i.e. 120 speed does not always beat 119 speed - and a random element functionally moves everybody closer to average speed. I wouldn't be surprised if that alone was enough to put her at the <=150% TB Speed mark. Obviously there's also interpretations of TB speed that don't take it literally (caps, SDs, etc.), so that too.
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Notable matches:
Ryudo (G2) vs. Miakis (S5) - Not going to math it out, but I normally use a fairly generously low damage average for Grandia II due to their SP issues, and it might be enough to put Ryudo over the top.
Not even the most generous damage average listed in G2 gets Ryudo to 2HKO average with anything. The damage spread just fails too much. Taking anything lower than that average (which already helps mitigating a lot of the SP issues, and honestly the only PC who really suffers from the SP issues in practice besides prolonged stallfests which they already lose period anyway is Ryudo...)... I honestly think you'd have to fudge numbers arbitrarily (as in, either ignore moves entirely or make up numbers that aren't there) to make the averages any lower. And given that, even so, Ryudo would need to 2HKO with Flying Tenseiken there to have a prayer in hell. Saying he 2HKOs with Flying Tenseiken is just... I don't even know, feels like it's giving just about the whole cast a 2HKO, and off resource issues that aren't actually -that- pronounced because, aside Ryudo and Elena (who has other methods to deal damage and win duels to begin with), they can use their money moves at least 3-4 times per battle. The resource issues end up worse in practice because the damage spread in G2 is just horrible - everybody 3HKOs.
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Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) vs Dekar (Lufia 2) -- Yeah, not seeing Red win here. Dekar hits hard as hell, is hard to kill, and furthermore likes his healing and damage IPs.
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Changing vote to Elc for Elc vs. Ryu 3. I thought Tiamat could outright outlast L1 Invincible, but that isn't the case, so Ryu 3's dragon forms don't last.
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What can Elc -do- to kill Ryu, though? He immunes draining without morphing into a dragon and Elc's best damage hits his pdur like a little boyscout. Ryu might not even -need- to transform into a dragon to outlast Elc, given how his whoring hits a complete wall there and Ryu is a pretty high-class healer as it stands.
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Counters and Charge should get around the human form, I believe.
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Ryu3 can buff his defense too, and -that- doesn't run out and stacks. It's also piddly cheap.
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Oh, Barrier?
That works. And hey at least we find a match he uses his human form to win.
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Ryu has both Barrier and Protect, actually. But hey.