The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Dhyerwolf on October 17, 2009, 08:31:31 AM
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Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN)
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs)
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8)
Heavy:
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5)
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK)
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5)
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3)
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA)
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7)
Light:
Soren (FE9) vs Cinnamon (MMXCM)
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8)
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6)
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG)
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Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN)
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs)- Gut. Brahms is faster, Dhouly doesn't OHKO. 25% chance of smash+50% of smash=Brahms activates his PWS of doom.
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8)- Will need to math this out when my comp isn't slow from downloads. Lesca 3HKOs...when she can access Absorb. Empyrea may just eat through Lesca HP way to quickly. Gutting Empyrea for now. Lesca doesn't like not starting with the damage here.
Heavy:
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5)
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)- Unless the sleep->heal->ignore evade thanks to having her enemy asleep can buy Toadstool a win before Joshua kills her with a crit.
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK)- Yosuke versus durability
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5)- Number crunch later, likely Nanaki though.
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3)- Dekar 2HKOs, Landis probably kills on his 4th turn and neutralizes Dekar's 2nd attack, but its not enough.
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA)- Massimo is the obvious choice, but about how long did Tear's Invincibility move last?
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7)- Oh god, SL hype and crit hype?! Don't know here.
Light:
Soren (FE9) vs Cinnamon (MMXCM)- This really depends on whether I see Cinnamon halving Wind in hyper mode. Think the match is pretty clean one way of the other. She does, then she 2HKOs and doesn't worry about the counter. She doesn't, and Soren is unloading a counter, a normal attack, and an Astra attack, overwhelming her.
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8)
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6)- Randomly gut checked this one, but won't be surprised at all if the effective numbers show it to be different. Not too different, but Rebecca has more speed.
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG)- OHKOs.
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Godlike:
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs): He's really good at chipping, so he never has to give Brahms a turn below 50%
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8)
Heavy:
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5)
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK)
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN): That ID is not turn 1 against legendary stats. So... dragon dance first turn. If Cristo tries to ID, Ray kills with hyper beam next turn. If Cristo uses upper, Ray dragon dances next turn, shrugs off an ID attempt, then doubles and kills with 2x Outrage.
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5)
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3): Gutting that freeze/permafreeze is really mean against someone that slow.
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA): Full AP berzerk charge does it.
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7): Elaine has 1 SL charge, a terrible crit rate, and crits might not even do much because they're just extra damage before defense, not even true ITD, and so "overkill" defense blunts or outright stops them.
Light:
Soren (FE9) vs Cinnamon (MMXCM)
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8)
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG)
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Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA)- Massimo is the obvious choice, but about how long did Tear's Invincibility move last?
Less than the cast time.
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Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs) - Faster, 2HKOs and avoids the OHKO because Dhoulmagus' magical backup damage is pretty trashy. Honestly, I doubt even VP2 Brahms loses due to the parasitic healing (which quite possibly lets him avoid being 2HKOed).
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Absorb 2HKOs Empy HP.
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5) - Is faster, 2HKOs, isn't even 2HKOed (if only due to Lightning resistance). Barubary is worthless.
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8) - I don't even see Sleepy Time as ITE. This just tosses Toadstool's chances into the crapper.
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK) - Yosuke can't 3HKO Tony unless he wants to be 2HKOed through Endure - and that's being generous. That's game.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - See Monkey, really. ID being turn two just gets Cristo in a bind, and Quaza goes first to begin with. Surround could be a point, but a 3-2 is quite possible under the circumstances and after a single Dragon Dance, Rayquaza is heal-locking Cristo with fury.
Nanaki (FF7) vs Sharmista (S5) - I think poke+L1 may very well be capable of getting Sharmista killed. This is sad.
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3) - I'd agree with Dhyer that killing in the fourth turn wouldn't be enough to get that win... but Dekar gets 3-2'd.
Massimo (MMXCM) vs Tear Grants (TotA) - Freaks Tear out.
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - No tinking hype from me, which means Elaine just SLs and two-rounds Nergal's scrubby ass. His defense is honestly overrated anyway.
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8) - Irvine fucking sucks.
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Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN) - Nate. Has a bigger penis, him being the number one man in Japan. Excuse me, Number One.
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - Kurando. Man, Orlandu hates having 0 defense!
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs) - Dhoulmagus. Brahms is a vampire, and Dhoulmagus is in a game with a night/day cycle. Dhoulmagus just waits until it's sun, then BAM. Stake through the heart and all that.
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Yunalesca. Have you SEEN her boobs? They're bigger than your head!
Heavy:
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5) - Barubary. Makes better write-ups.
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8) - Toadstool. Seriously, you ever tried cutting them apart? It just oozes all over you, and might even be poisonous! Joshua comes from a desert country - I'm sure he knows not to do such things, especially since it's happened before during the events of Sacred Stones. As such, Joshua simply tries to cook her, and of course, as we know, women > men when it comes to the kitchen thing. Now, make a goddamned sammich!
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK) - Tony. While both are clumsy and sometimes bumbling, Tony at least gets the girl. What does Yosuke get? Lots of heartbreak :(
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Rayquaza. Dragon Quest games rarely involve dragons except at the very, very end, and Cristo really isn't the person that deals with them, hence, he's out of his league here.
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5) - Nanaki. A talking dog-thing is pretty cool. Sharmista...does anyone remember her? Really? Or him - it's hard to tell with Suikoden.
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3) - Dekar. Hard to argue with an axe to the face.
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA) - Massimo. Big fucking robot. How is it supposed to be put to sleep? If Tear had water magic, I could see it, but...
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Nergal. Elaine tinks against the mighty Nergal.
Light:
Soren (FE9) vs Cinnamon (MMXCM) - Soren's only resisted attack is fire tomes (duh, Cinnamon resists THUNDER, not LIGHTNING...kind of retarded to make a robot that resists sound, but whatever). Therefore, no problems there. With the might of Rexcalibre, the world is his!
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8) - Irvine. Gun.
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6) - Relm. Control.
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG) - Colette. See the write...wait, it got cut down so much :( Oh well, Dominia sucks.
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/me crunches Red's physical vs. Sharmista HP, ignoring she's below average for defense by a non-negligible amount.
Dear god, Red physical x2 = borderline dead Sharmista off the HP alone. I undersold his Limited Moon offense (heck, it deals the same as the L1!). More importantly, though, this means that I'm not even sure there's a way Sharmista wins this unless stun hits turn one. That... um, yeah, it's fairly clear-cut. Sharmista sucks.
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Heavy:
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Middle:
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7)
Light:
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6)
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Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN)- Lugia can't really damage Nate.
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)-Mismatch.
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs)- Dhouly's below average speed. Kersplat.
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8)- Boss. Yunalesca's durability isn't that impressive thanks to summons existing, but... eh. Yeah, boss. Empy's just far better at slugging in a long fight than Killer.
Heavy:
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5)
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK)- Strong kneejerk.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)- Don't know.
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5)
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3)- Don't buy Landis 3-2ing. He's barely average speed and Dekar's not that slow.
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA)- I think?
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7)- Strongly leaning Elaine. But we'll see.
Light:
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8)- What Snow said. If you have any shred of damage control or actual decent damage, you own Irvine.
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Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN) - I ... think?
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs)
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8)
Heavy:
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK) - uh.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Gutcheck says ID won't land in time, stalling Rayquaza is an exercise in futility.
Middle:
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3) - Nowhere near the freeze respect others have.
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Fuggit.
Light:
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8)
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6) - Control hype. >_>
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Godlike:
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT): Faster, puts pressure on immediately, Kurando is heal-locked back at best while a status lands.
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs): VP2 Brahms only but... he actually may hold up pretty well here. Dhoumagus may not 2HKO him before draining, definitely doesn't after. So does Brahms 3HKO back? Eh... probably not. Though... not certain Dhoulmagus pulls off the 3HKO back? Probably does with High Speed Combo, but that's a limit... but probably one he gets by the last turn, which is enough to pull him over the top. So probably Dhoulmagus, and this match belongs in Heavy.
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8): Draining.
Heavy:
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5): Faster 2HKO. G Dragon makes Baru's HP kinda emo.
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8): Ignores Mute, Sleepy Time doesn't always hit, and those crits are coming eventually.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN): Ray's legendary stats are all in offence, not defence. 1.1x average MDef? That -may- make Beat turn 2, but offhand I don't think so. Not sure it matters, Cristo is tanky enough to survive DD + Hyper... maybe not 2x DD + Hyper, though? But I don't think Ray's quite fast enough for a 3-2 even with two Dragon Dances in there (the second barely touches Ray's speed). It's... there's enough judgement calls there that Ray could win, but I don't think so. Might also consider a vote change if someone tested DQ4DS's Whack.
Wait. Ray's best strategy here isn't to buff, it's just to spam Dragon Claw all day. That can't be stopped by Upper, and he doubles well before it runs out of ammo. So.. yeah Cristo really does need that turn 1 ID. One judgement call = switching to abstain for now.
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5): Sharmista is sure disappointing.
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3): Fairly close. Does come down to that 3-2, and a little numbercrunching says Landis just misses it: 104% speed vs. 73% speed isn't good enough.
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA): Gets off a fatal Berserk Charge turn 3 and has no chance of dying before then. Think I've underrated Massimo in the past.
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7): What the hell, people. Characters with average Strength (physical) deal 14 damage to Nergal. Without supports, or buffing. That's not even close to tinking. After scaling it's a OHKO or 2HKO depending on how you scale. Elaine is 3HKOing at worst (barely below average damage), and SL gives her 4 turns. Yeah.
Light:
Soren (FE9) vs Cinnamon (MMXCM): Cin is really good against magic (yes, I extend her "three basic elements" resistance to the three basic elements in FE, especially since Wind and Ice are the same in FE).
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8): CC has damage control.
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6): Ummm... I think.
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Will need to math this out when my comp isn't slow from downloads. Lesca 3HKOs...when she can access Absorb. Empyrea may just eat through Lesca HP way to quickly. Gutting Empyrea for now. Lesca doesn't like not starting with the damage here.
Yunalesca has Absorb available in all of her forms, at any HP.
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Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3): Fairly close. Does come down to that 3-2, and a little numbercrunching says Landis just misses it: 104% speed vs. 73% speed isn't good enough.
Dekar's speed is actually above 70% average? I always figured it hovered somewhere in the realm of the high 60%.
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Why isn't a 4-3 good enough?
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I'm not sure I follow.
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... if you assume Dekar misses his second turn due to stun and it resets his CT, you're probably right, a 4-3 is enough because Dekar just doesn't OHKO - Landis attacks, Dekar attacks, Landis attacks, stuns, Dekar loses turn, Landis doubles and attacks twice, entering the turn three threshold for permafreeze and, on average, making Dekar at least lose another turn, and at worst, five Landis turns should be fatal to Dekar. Although I'm not so sure about that, since it enters more elaborate turn manipulation shenanigans and picks into a realm that S3 stun doesn't cover in and out of itself.
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Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Let's see. All - or at least all the major ones, and probably all of them - FFX bosses are immune to Demi, which is basically a psuedo-status. Gravity doesn't exist in DQ8, but Empy is also immune to status. And for what it's worth, as far as psuedo-statuses, Empyrea is (according to Dark Holy Elf's later post in the stat topic) completely 100% immune to stat-downs (much like Yunalesca herself is basically immune to all status - including Demi). Conclusion: No, a gravity effect ain't working here.
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Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN)
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs)
Heavy:
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5)
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5)
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3)
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA) - I think she can get off a Forcefield to block off his attacks, and heal plenty and harm him. But man, I'm starting to hate ARPGs in the DL because the way they shine in-game translates so poorly to turn-based settings.
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Only one charge of SL? Well!
Light:
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8)
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6)
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG) - Probably Colette? Gotta look at stat topics, Dominia somehow makes me go "Who again?"
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Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA) - I think she can get off a Forcefield to block off his attacks, and heal plenty and harm him. But man, I'm starting to hate ARPGs in the DL because the way they shine in-game translates so poorly to turn-based settings.
Wait, there's a universe in where Force Field isn't impressively useless? That thing only caused me grief until I turned it off Tear's AI so she'd stop wasting the time and TP casting the thing. I wouldn't have known it gave invincibility by playing the game, given how utterly awful it was in-game.
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Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA) - I think she can get off a Forcefield to block off his attacks, and heal plenty and harm him. But man, I'm starting to hate ARPGs in the DL because the way they shine in-game translates so poorly to turn-based settings.
Wait, there's a universe in where Force Field isn't impressively useless? That thing only caused me grief until I turned it off Tear's AI so she'd stop wasting the time and TP casting the thing. I wouldn't have known it gave invincibility by playing the game, given how utterly awful it was in-game.
That's probably because it costs of a lot of TP, and the AI usually used it against attacks that would only normally do double-digit damage. I think it's completely valid against anyone who has something that requires charging.
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Problem is that Massimo doesn't, really. He gets the WE threshold to unload his damage whenever by turn two, and there's nothing forcing him to unload it while Tear puts up Force Field. And given how it runs out in less time than it takes for her to -cast it- to begin with, what stops him from just waiting until it's vulnerable? Where is she getting the leeway to actually make headway? It just lasts too little for it to be of any use against anything at all, it's basically a wasted action.
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Tear doubles. Occasionally. She can restore TP by attacking then.
I'm tempted to just not vote on that match at all because of ARPG mechanics being kind of Urgh.
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Tear doubles. Occasionally. She can restore TP by attacking then.
I'm tempted to just not vote on that match at all because of ARPG mechanics being kind of Urgh.
No way she restores enough TP attacking OR doubles with that kind of casting time.
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Tear doubles. Occasionally. She can restore TP by attacking then.
If she's charging her sluggish to slow as molasses spells, oh no she isn't. Massimo isn't even that slow, and I'd struggle to see even First Aid as above average speed (and that's Tear's fastest spell. TotA spell charge times are egregious failure).
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(Boring) Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN)
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VP2)
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8)
Heavy:
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK)
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Middle:
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA)
Light:
Soren (FE9) vs Cinnamon (MMXCM)
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6)
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Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Only one charge of SL? Well!
I'm just going to WTF at this again. Nergal has to take no fewer than 5 Elaine attacks and live to win this battle. That's not too far shy of 2PCHP. Nergal barely takes that much damage UNSCALED. If you have such ridiculously huge respect for SRPG bosses that you take them that way, then okay, just as long as you treat Altima as a 10x PCHP monstrosity.
Snowfire: For what it's worth, Absorb isn't classified as Demi, and does behave differently: hits mHP instead of cHP.
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On a side note, someone remind me to play Mana Khemia one of these days...
Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN)
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Absorb works.
Heavy:
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Ehh... I don't know if that ID is turn 1. Leaning no.
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5)
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Only needs one SL.
Light:
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8)
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG)
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Piggy - Play Mana Khemia
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Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Only one charge of SL? Well!
I'm just going to WTF at this again. Nergal has to take no fewer than 5 Elaine attacks and live to win this battle. That's not too far shy of 2PCHP. Nergal barely takes that much damage UNSCALED. If you have such ridiculously huge respect for SRPG bosses that you take them that way, then okay, just as long as you treat Altima as a 10x PCHP monstrosity.
//EDIT: I realise sarcasm may not translate well. So let me state it clearly here:
I think Nergal's better than what you think of him. I think Elaine's not at all good. When I fight Nergal on my playthroughs, he isn't someone I just breeze past. Maybe I use the wrong characters, or whatever, but I use my ingame experience to determine how much I respect a certain character's attributes.
That you disagree, that's cool. That's completely fine, and I respect that. But I do not respect people who are all "omg WTF @ ur opinion" and "okay if u think that THEN YOU MUST THINK THIS WAY AS WELL BECAUSE I SAY SO".
At that point I say, "Go screw yourself". I'm going to vote based on my ingame experience, and not yours.
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What is egregious to him is more that you gave no previous sign of applying any degree of consistency with that - i.e. giving the same monstrous HP respect towards other SRPG bosses that you've given Nergal (and given how Nergal is one of the frailest SRPG bosses ranked around these parts, he honestly doesn't deserve it either). I know that often there are some pretty fierce kneejerks when it comes to matches, but it's worth nagging at glaring discrepancies now and then.
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Hrm. I guess the full five rounds of Silent Lake really is too much for Nergal to take under my views, and Elaine is pretty much average against magic so no OHKO hype.
Change that vote.
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I'm afraid I still feel Nergal is durable, even if you do not. That's simply how he came off to me, Snow. But I see your point, and I'll avoid these threads in the future because I simply do not feel like being lambasted because I see things in a different way than you do. If it truly becomes a problem, I am not even going to vote on any more matches where interpretations are involved if that will soothe the anger that is your keyboard.
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I'm afraid I still feel Nergal is durable, even if you do not. That's simply how he came off to me, Snow. But I see your point, and I'll avoid these threads in the future because I simply do not feel like being lambasted because I see things in a different way than you do. If it truly becomes a problem, I am not even going to vote on any more matches where interpretations are involved if that will soothe the anger that is your keyboard.
There's always a measure of "how much", and you're now just being excessively defensive. I honestly -do- want to know how in detail you come to the conclusion of "yes, Nergal can take 2x PC HP worth of damage even though he's not capable of handling that much damage unscaled against DL-legal-only weaponry, and tinking hype doesn't allow for it either because Nergal doesn't come close to tinking an average hit in-game unless you take him against Iron Swords", because the numbers just don't add up.
I'll clarify once again: I'm not screaming at you for having an opinion that is not the same as mine - nor is Elfboy, and if you're interpreting this as that, I am very sorry and very saddened, because not only you are mistaken, you are being very unfair to both of us. The problem is hardly you seeing things differently. However, using that as an excuse to act hurt and persecuted is both infantile and disrespectful.
You are in a discussion board - if you have a point of view and you put it upfront for scrutiny, you are expected to logically and rationally explain it and defend it if someone notes an inconsistency and asks for a clarification. The same applies to me and any other poster. However, all you're doing is "meh opinion stop picking on meeeeeeeeee" and curl up into a ball. That answers nothing and isn't discussion, and that I have to nag on because it's unfruitful. I'm sorry if you feel offended because that wasn't my intention. However, this may highlight you need to think your approach more thoroughly indeed, and base your argumentation further. That is all I ask of you. I'm sure you can do this much, you are an adult, and clearly capable of speaking and acting like one.
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I am very sorry and very saddened, because not only you are mistaken, you are being very unfair to both of us
You're right. Whoever's day it is today, it is obviously not mine. I admit I am a bit stressed, and a chagrin as a result, so please accept my earnest apologies. I'm not going to make this too long, because I'm already feeling the urgh, so here's my reasoning:
In my ingame experience, Nergal dodged me quite a bit. Elaine did not hit quite a lot. 1 + 1 add up and I armed myself of the idea that Nergal can realistically avoid getting killed by Elaine before Silent Lake runs out and go on the counter-offensive; he already gets in one hit before Silent Lake, and should get in another after it ends, and that is when it is game.
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You're right. Whoever's day it is today, it is obviously not mine. I admit I am a bit stressed, and a chagrin as a result, so please accept my earnest apologies. I'm not going to make this too long, because I'm already feeling the urgh, so here's my reasoning:
In my ingame experience, Nergal dodged me quite a bit. Elaine did not hit quite a lot. 1 + 1 add up and I armed myself of the idea that Nergal can realistically avoid getting killed by Elaine before Silent Lake runs out and go on the counter-offensive; he already gets in one hit before Silent Lake, and should get in another after it ends, and that is when it is game.
Thinking going with the Accuracy skill covers this? She just drops Armor Protect which doesn't help here, though I guess it comes down to personal respect - Nergal's no Lloyd but he's got somewhat useful evasion against average.
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Oh, I see. I guess that's... fair in a vacuum? But lemme check it out, I'm pretty sure Nergal's evade stat is pretty poor (very bad speed)... yeah, 46, that's not impressive. Average hit in FE7 is about 130 (in-game probably closer to 140 due to supports and stat-boosting items if you're so inclined). That gives him less than 20% effective evasion at the most generous, and while Elaine's skill is averagish, she can sacrifice, say, Armor Protect for Accuracy, which should mitigate the evasion and give her no offense loss - nor durability, because Nergal has no physicals, and now he's unlikely to dodge even once. You probably just had people with poor accuracy and no supports trying to hit him if that was the case, or just got horrendously unlucky (happens, but the RNG shouldn't dictate how good a boss is). Also keep in mind that Elaine doubles him FE-style due to his terrible speed, so she's dealing double her normal damage at him, which is part of why he ends up so frail effectively in the DL (but isn't the only component).
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Snow: That latter is only if you let non-FE characters get FE style doubles. I certainly don't, so it's not a universal viewpoint.
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So you don't considers doubles in the DL either way?
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I wasn't even including FE doubles in my analysis, yeah. Actually forgot about them! Do allow them, though.
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Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN): Ray's legendary stats are all in offence, not defence. 1.1x average MDef? That -may- make Beat turn 2, but offhand I don't think so. Not sure it matters, Cristo is tanky enough to survive DD + Hyper... maybe not 2x DD + Hyper, though? But I don't think Ray's quite fast enough for a 3-2 even with two Dragon Dances in there (the second barely touches Ray's speed). It's... there's enough judgement calls there that Ray could win, but I don't think so. Might also consider a vote change if someone tested DQ4DS's Whack.
Wait. Ray's best strategy here isn't to buff, it's just to spam Dragon Claw all day. That can't be stopped by Upper, and he doubles well before it runs out of ammo. So.. yeah Cristo really does need that turn 1 ID. One judgement call = switching to abstain for now.
The heck you guys talking about Turn Splits? Cristo's from a Turn-Based System, Ray's from a Turn-Based System, so their fight would be a Turn-Based Fight. If Ray uses Dragon Dance, it would allow him a double against Cristo, but only once, on the turn that his relative agility becomes greater than Cristo's (i.e. after the 1st DD). DD is still a viable move normally though, as it's not just speed that's buffed, but also physical attack... which makes it fail against Buff/Upper...
So, basically, Dragon Claw just puts Cristo into Healall-Lock, but he has enough charges to resist. Add 3 turns of Outrage for further Heallall-lock, and a casting of Upper on Turn 1 to prevent Ray from KOing Cristo on a Claw+Extremespeed Combo, and you're looking at 47 MP left for the guy. Long story short, Whack needs to be Turn 3 or better against Ray or Cristo's dead. (Alternately, Cristo can try for Dazzle for an extra shot or two, but that assumes that Dazzle is Turn 1 or 2. Wash.)
So... Yeah. Abstain until someone can get Whack's rate in the DS form.
Toadstool v Joshua: Josh has the speed to get the 2nd hit for his turn, if Killing Edge doesn't crit on Hit #2, it definitely does the next chance he gets a turn, Crit = 3x Damage = OHKO, Toadstool's Sleep is removed by any damage per Stat topic, and Toadstool can't OHKO. (Josh can survive 3 Psych Bombs, albeit barely; Frying Pan does 3HKO, but then she's subject to counters.)
Realistically, though, he just does better at the minigames.
If you allow FE-Style Counters for non SRPG opponents of FE characters, then replace OHKO above with 2HKO.
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Not everyone forbids doubling of the CT type between two TB people, Sir Donald; multiple people just convert everything to CTB.
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Also, it's worth pointing out that Ray is faster than Cristo to begin with, so there's no turn 1 Upper coming out to play if Ray just starts using Dragon Claw from the get-go.
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I would like to point out at this juncture that Nergal's defense vs DL average offense, if I'm reading this right(I think the topic assumes 10 Defense?) reduces average damage by around 75%. From 23 to 5 for physicals and 3 for magic. Ignoring of course that the averages for the two could be separate if you want to get picky.
Now, granted. Filia's Might exists. How much you want to credit that's your buisiness. (I...tend to consider it bonus, it was a Desert find, I think? and 15 shots. I can really see crediting it a lot, and Nergal is one of the better targets for it, but it tends to weaken how much I care about it myself.) But still, it doesn't take tooooo much more durability credit than I give him to see his HP taking that, I guess. Mostly requires giving him support credit despite the detatchment of his support, as it is good support, just not really fought at the same time.
So basically, it's not really a large stretch, just requires being generous to him enough to see his HP higher or to take something like Killer Weapons more into in-game averages(As, that lowers the raw might of the average signifigantly enough to matter.). People don't respect Nergal defenses enough, on paper.
(HP, now, his HP sucks. But hey. And of course there's going to be arguments about who you *should* take as average against Nergal.)
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I think people are pretty much holding Legendary and S-ranked weapons against him, since you get them just for that chapter alone.
At least, that's why I've always figured Limstella's still in heavy and Nergal isn't.
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Now, granted. Filia's Might exists. How much you want to credit that's your buisiness. (I...tend to consider it bonus, it was a Desert find, I think? and 15 shots. I can really see crediting it a lot, and Nergal is one of the better targets for it, but it tends to weaken how much I care about it myself.) But still, it doesn't take tooooo much more durability credit than I give him to see his HP taking that, I guess. Mostly requires giving him support credit despite the detatchment of his support, as it is good support, just not really fought at the same time.
The other problem is that S Rank weapons also uniformly exist by Nergal, and you're likely to have one for the vast majority of your army, and those are far better at breaking his defense. Athos also exists, and he not only breaks through Nergal defense easily, he also comes with two S-Rank weapons which you can drop forward. Weapons that have better Might than Silvers that aren't DL-legal, but are fair game for in-game scaling exist, and they're actually plentiful enough to matter. And that's not even getting into supports, which, on average, add at least three more points of strength per character, or possibly even stat boosters (stat boosters get into fund ranking issues, though, so let's not get there). 28 Defense isn't so impressive when your might average quite probably outpaces 40.
So basically, it's not really a large stretch, just requires being generous to him enough to see his HP higher or to take something like Killer Weapons more into in-game averages(As, that lowers the raw might of the average signifigantly enough to matter.). People don't respect Nergal defenses enough, on paper.
In-game, Killer weapons are a downright damage loss. They just get inflated in the DL. I'd avoid taking Killers in-game for averages due to their sub-optimal effect, and even DL-wise, unless you're generous with when crits kick in, they tend to deal less damage long-term than Silvers to boot. Nergal's defenses aren't respected enough because they just don't end up impressive in practice. They don't mitigate how frail he is enough, but when you're being taken against S Rank weapons and a uber PC you can't not have that is more than capable of not only melting through those defenses, but of OHKOing him in spite of those defenses, very little is off that HP. His defense is barely higher than Limstella's in practice (she gets fort/throne bonuses, he doesn't), but he has to face weaponry that is almost uniformly twice as strong as what Limstella has to face, which not only makes his HP even worse, but makes his defense easier to breach through in practice, because the might average is significantly higher.
I understand the impulse to respect Nergal's defense more, but I also need to point out what makes him so different compared to Limstella or slightly earlier bosses durability-wise.
EDIT: Limstella's a Heavy because she's lucky and didn't face a downgrade pool that properly sends her down. She still may be better than Nergal, though.
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Godlike:
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN) - Easy
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - Easy
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs) - Easy + Brahms respect anyway.
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Closer, but Yunalesca durability~
Heavy:
Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5) - Twilight rune damage hype.
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8) - Noting that while I still buy Joshua's crit coming out before Toadstool can kill, I'd argue that Sleep pre-empts him from Countering when she wakes him up with Frying Pan.
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK) - Kneejerk, but I'd like to see some arguments on this one. I only know Tony from the stat topics ATM.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - I don't think DS Whack is even 50%.
Middle:
Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5) - Snow math works for me.
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3) - I don't think Landis even should have beaten Serph, so.
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA) - Tear buffs instead of going for Force Field, staving off OHKOs, heals off any of his normal damage if he saves his WE for the buff to end, and slowly builds up her overlimit bar off of physicals to keep her TP up! YES!!!~ (I love you, Tear, but you desperately need to get to Light so you can earn some wins.)
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Yeah, SL > Nergal in every way to me.
Light:
Soren (FE9) vs Cinnamon (MMXCM) - Yeah, not buying Cinnamon blocking wind here.
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8) - Though if I allow FF8 characters to start in Limit range, he statuses her out. I'm torn about allowing this. It -really- fits with my views about carrying over in-game advantages (and I already have no problems with allowing pre-battle buffing like Vanish - Celes and Shadow love me), but making Irvine into FF8 gamebest dueller just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I should abstain?
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6) - Another weird interp call for me. I allow both WA5 and FF6 characters to get plot-based equips, so I give Rebecca the Sky Medium and Relm gets Starlet/Lakshmi magicite/spells. So... Rebecca has damage that actually registers, but Relm is now an awesome healer and I don't think Rebecca even heal-locks. Alternately - Control -> Rebecca shoots herself.
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG) - Eventually, Tear and Colette will fight it out. The winner will challenge the godly Mint. Yes.
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The other problem is that S Rank weapons also uniformly exist by Nergal
Oh, right, I forgot those. They do drag the average up a couple of points(I'd thought of the uniques, but I forgot that the S Rank universals were 20ish on Might.).
Of course, flipside, people could see 20/15 as high for endgame. Depends on how many people you run. (My runs averaged about 20/5 but don't count at all, sensible, non-RNG abusing people won't try to use everyone.)
In-game, Killer weapons are a downright damage loss. They just get inflated in the DL. I'd avoid taking Killers in-game for averages due to their sub-optimal effect, and even DL-wise, unless you're generous with when crits kick in, they tend to deal less damage long-term than Silvers to boot. Nergal's defenses aren't respected enough because they just don't end up impressive in practice. They don't mitigate how frail he is enough, but when you're being taken against S Rank weapons and a uber PC you can't not have that is more than capable of not only melting through those defenses, but of OHKOing him in spite of those defenses, very little is off that HP. His defense is barely higher than Limstella's in practice (she gets fort/throne bonuses, he doesn't), but he has to face weaponry that is almost uniformly twice as strong as what Limstella has to face, which not only makes his HP even worse, but makes his defense easier to breach through in practice, because the might average is significantly higher.
I understand the impulse to respect Nergal's defense more, but I also need to point out what makes him so different compared to Limstella or slightly earlier bosses durability-wise.
EDIT: Limstella's a Heavy because she's lucky and didn't face a downgrade pool that properly sends her down. She still may be better than Nergal, though.
Well, that is true. Overall, Limstella's defense respect should be at the very worst comparable, and really should be better; IIRC, her support is more directly applicable instead of being compartmentalized boss fights that happen before you can touch her, as well, helping durability arguments in her favor somewhat to me. Never mind that she has a throne, as you said, and 2 defense difference probably gets accounted for by pure *levels* between the two(Well, Athos isn't really levels, since those are his base stats. But Athos+the added IIRC high EXP final stage randoms should actually account for most of that just on raw stats...), let alone equipment. Nergal has him some problems.
I tend to forget Limstella exists though. Wonder why.
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Djinn: My response to the Irvine thing would be that, sure, start him at 25%-33% or so. ...Steena's fast enough to go before him and whack Irvine into oblivion since she's going before him, I think. >_> (Steena is 11 to 10.18, Irvine is 39 to 36.33, this divides out to Steena at 1.08 and Irvine at 1.073). Factoring GFs in if you grant them to the cast lowers any relative speed average Irvine has, I think.
And in no average does Steena fail to OHKO a Limit Range Irvine unless you scale a GF'd Irvine to non-GF'd people (... hope not!) or take my 3xPCHP, in which case the worst average makes Steena fail to hit 33% by... 1%. ...which might meet scaled Irvine defenses.
So yeah, to me no matter what's given to Irvine, it's Steena's match.
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Tal - Good point about Steena being faster and OHKO-ing Irvine. I had kneejerked Irvine as faster, so if I allowed starting at Limit Range, he'd have won. Still... I think if I allow this interp, it's going to make Irvine far better than he deserves.
Idly... does anyone have any damage numbers for GF summons?
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Which ones? And at what levels?
It really does depend a lot on if you're talking Bahamut/Eden/high level Cactuar/etc or if you mean stuff like lower end, but more easily accessed, GFs like Leviathan. I think one of the FAQs on GFAQs actually lists the base power of a bunch of GF summon attacks, ignoring the GF%+ skills.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197343/50775 Actually, SI's isn't the FAQ I was thinking of when I said that, but it does list GF powers from fairly low levels(20ish for later ones) on up, so. (Those are without Boost/% skills, the Attack values shown.)
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Oh hey, that's actually pretty useful! Thanks Sage.
Only ones that I think matter are Quez, Shiva, and Leviathan for me. I can't think of any even -tenuous- plot claims for the other GFs. Thinking I allow the skills from the GFs, so Squall gets Doom and (zOMG!) Card while Rinoa gets Recover; but no to junctioning stats. They can, of course, -summon- the GFs for some slow damage (better than their physicals!), and this is a bit more reliable for first-turn damage for those two than starting in the Limit range thanks to the random nature of their Limits. Also means they don't have to start in the OHKO range like Zell et all for damage.
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Little late now, but theoretically Steena is only average speed on turn 1, like all CC PCs (And while I generally approve of views to help games kind of differentiate between everyone starting right as 100% speed on the dot, CC is pretty clear there).
Why does Rinoa get Leviathan? Because of the demo?
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Yeah, I'm pretty lenient on this whole GF thing.