The RPG Duelling League
RPGDL Games => Forum Games => Topic started by: Carthrat on August 12, 2009, 12:15:32 AM
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-Town Must Lynch; ties are resolved via sudden death.
-Scum Must Kill
-Serial Killers Must Kill
-Days will be 48 hours, subject to extension if desired by popular demand. Post ##Extension if you want one and if at least a third of you want it it will happen.
-Replacements will only be permitted on days one and two. Any hardcore lurkers or people who want to quit will simply be killed after that.
-Play to win
-Don't be lame
-Don't edit your posts
-If you're not sure, ask, especially if you want role clarifications.
Town (Town wins by killing all other factions, excluding any survivors.)
Doctor (May or may not be able to protect self. May or may not be able to protect the same person twice in a row.)
Cop (Sane, Insane, may or may not be guaranteed)
Roleblocker
Vigilante (Nightvig only, may be compulsive, may have limited shots)
Tracker
Watcher
Watcher/Tracker
Bomb (Kills anyone who hammers him; kills anyone attempting to kill him at night.)
Bulletproof
Vanilla
Miller (Special, may be attached to any of the above roles.)
Scum (One scum must go on the kill, they lose any powers they have that night if so. Scum can talk to each other out of the thread. Scum wins by killing everyone else, except any Survivors.)
Doctor (The scumdoc will only appear if an SK or another scumteam exists. You can't use the scumdoc to protect against your own scumkill.)
Framer
Hitman (May ignore protections of any kind if sent on the kill. May have limited uses.)
Rolecop
Roleblocker (Blocks passive roles for that night as well, i.e. bomb, bulletproof, miller)
Godfather
Vanilla
Third Party (None will exist in a game with less than 13 people in it, guaranteed.)
Serial Killer (May be bulletproof, may flip town to investigations.)
Survivor (Doesn't need to be eliminated by either side, may possess any other role.)
1. Bardiche
4. Yoshiken
6. DELTAAAAAAAAAAA
7. Laggy
9. SirAlex
Delicious Vanilla Center
2. Magetastic
5. Excal
8. Sopko
Combo Hotdog Deal
3. Tonfa the Watcher
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Oh hey it's up.
##Vote: Delta
Jokevote phase over!
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##Vote Delta
In on the ground floopreview edit DANGIT LAGGY
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##Vote Excal
Sneaky bugger that one. Never know what cliche scheme he's got going through his head.
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There is no Andy, so... ALEX!
##Vote: Alex
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##Vote: Magetastic
Gentlemen, I present my case as follows:
We have all played among this individual, hiding behind the persona of 'Excal'. Now, we have all known him to have the uncanny ability to draw 'Vanilla Town' in each of his games. If there are twenty players and nineteen roles, Excal will be vanilla. If there are thirteen players and ten roles, Excal will be vanilla.
Therefore, from this empirical data, we can surmise that Excal will, in fact, be vanilla.
We can therefore assume that Magetastic is voting on someone who is quite obviously town, and I have no choice but to place a resounding vote on his name for justice, love, and magical girl Ghaleon.
Please do not take my argument serious. I honestly have nothing against you Magetastic. :(
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##Unvote Excal
##Vote Bardiche
Truly, this villain has put too much flavor and used too big of words for such a bland game. Clearly he is trying to trick us into believing what is wrong!
No worries, Bardiche. There's no way to tell who's anything yet, anyways. I'm pretty certain these are still joke votes. I hope, anyways.
EDIT: Thanks for the tip.
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Pst: use ##unvote to unvote. :P
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Votecount!
Delta (2): Alex, Laggy
Excal (0): Magetastic
SirAlex (1): Sopko
Magetastic (1): Bardiche
Bardiche (1): Magetastic
47 Hours Reamining!
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Pst: don't edit posts either.
##Vote: Bardiche
Dutch. Can't be trusted.
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Cliche, me? Unforgiveable! ##Vote: Magetastic
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(http://www.court-records.net/rips/bubble-objection.gif)
Ah, Bardiche. Yet again your statements are faulty enough that even the old judge would pick up on them. I submit Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia (http://www.rpgdl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10274&postorder=asc&start=1775) into evidence. This is the very first DL game Excal played, and 'lo, even there he has a very special role indeed, which makes your case against Magetastic crumble!
And then you backpedal and say your case should not be taken seriously, after you have made a horrible false accusation against this possibly innocent man, clouding the hearts of the jury!
I say, lynch all liars. Explain yourself, DEMON, if you can.
##Vote: Bardiche
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Ooo. A train is developing! Let's see where this leads!
Bard's case wouldn't be too bad as a starting point, even as a joke platform, but as Tonfa points out, he totally backpedals on it by saying it shouldn't be taken seriously. DL MAFIA IS SERIOUS BUSINESS! He's at three votes now! Let's see how he responds to pressure!
DELTA NEEDS TO POST SOMETHINGANYTHINGOGOGOGOGO
Laggy and Alex need to get back in the game.
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People are still in jokevote phase. I stated clearly jokevote phase was over for me, and my vote on Delta is quite serious.
I have nothing else productive to contribute until Delta responds or people prod specifically for feedback.
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Good prompt response! But that says nothing, Laggy, except that you made an arbitrary decision yourself and are hiding behind it.
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All decisions are arbitrary when you break it down like that.
I'm not really seeing what to "hide" behind here, I find that the jokevote phase of Day 1 to be nearly meaningless, not terribly productive for town and had no wish to participate in it. This discussion in fact is proving to be more productive. I am curious why you are critiquing me for that and not for the actual reason I voted Delta.
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It's day 1. I have my vote on the person I currently consider most harmful to town, due to past experiences and the fact that he hasn't posted anything yet. Kind of funny that Laggy's doing the same thing, slightly town him, slightly scum Sopko due to cheerleader style and then dragging Laggy into an argument but seriously everything is minor right now. Need some time to develop thoughts.
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OHGODTHETERRIBLEPRESSUREI--wait, what, Sopko? They're jotevotes, excepting maybe Tonfa's who has a GRUDGEVOTE (oh silly woman, learn to let things go), and I see no real reason to provide any commentary whatsoever re: voting me.
Sopko, why would my case be 'not too bad, even for a joke platform'? Honestly even I myself cannot find it to be any good. >_>
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Silly Bardiche, how many times do I have to say I bear no grudges, you're just halfway amusing to play with. Gonna leave the vote where it stands because I don't like the "heh it's nothing" tone regardless, jokevote or not.
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Votecount!
Delta (2): Alex, Laggy
Excal (0): Magetastic
SirAlex (1): Sopko
Magetastic (2): Bardiche, Excal
Bardiche (3): Magetastic, Yoshiken, Tonfa
35 Hours Reamining!
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You're absolutely right, I should somehow formulate an eloquent defense against people making me the butt of their jokes.
Re: putting too much flavour and grand words, I'm very sorry I sometimes try to be a bit more eloquent than a bear. I mean oh darn, maybe you're even OMGUS'ing me, clearly that can be derived from this phase.
Re: being Dutch. Yes, you're absolutely right, guilty as charged. I'm Dutch. Damn, I guess that really does justify Yoshiken's vote. I should take this serious to the utmost and succumb to the pressure this brings.
Re: your joke argument is flawed. Well, uh, damn, yes, it is. How surprising. Good of you to point this out, I'm... wait, what, I should explain my joke argument? Okay... I made the argument because we're in the general jokevote phase (disregarding Laggy for a moment) and I thought it was at least fairly ridiculous and that it'd deserve the same interest as regular jokevotes based on nationality, jokevotes and names.
Now, have I given the jokevote pressure on me sufficient attention, Tonfa? Do I satisfy your lust for taking your jokes as absolute srs bsns? If you're turning your jokevote into a serious vote, please inform me so I can put on my srs face and treat this as srs bsns because at the moment I just can't imagine taking it too serious.
I'm going to suppose everyone'll find this srs as well and probably for a while discussion will revolve around me and someone will go keikaku doori, etc etc. Man, I knew I should've been concise with the jokevote.
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Good good. No need to breakdown just yet though, save it for a later day for extra drama points!*
##Unvote
*only if you're scum to make finding you easier
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Re: other people. Talk with us. :( Especially Delta who has not posted at all yet!
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*wakes up*
It is day 1, day 1 sucks, etc.
Default instinct is to go with LAL (with Lurkers and Liars being used interchangeably there). Delta still has not posted, problematic. Forming pressuretrains on people and watching them talk is the way to go like with Bard here. I don't like how wordy his posts are, defensive or not, but that's a minor gripe, no real leaning of town or scum either way. If it isn't being made plain obvious I am taking pains to be brief and to the point.
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Because as far as I see it, you had no reason for voting Delta to critique. I guess in all honesty thats what I should be calling you on, since if you're seriously sticking to that at this point I'd question why you'd know he wouldn't be here for all this time, Laggy. I'm on the fence about pressing you on this, mind, because it just leads down bad roads of WIFOMyness, but I do want a reponse. You can't take credit for pressing Delta in the first post when whether or not he'd be around is a complete unknown.
My kneejerk response on Bard was that he was overreacting, but after a re-read or two I can see that he is seriously responding to the stuff put against him, just being snarky. Which doesn't help town! But it does abate my suspicion for day one.
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Nah, my reasons for voting Delta are the same as Alex's (funnily enough), I just didn't state them outright. That was my snarky moment I suppose. I found it odd that that was the biggest hole that someone COULD poke me for, quite intentionally so, and you passed up on doing that and instead pressed with what I find a very transparent point.
So I'm not accused of dancing around the issue: voting for Delta because from past record he causes town the most damage and distraction. I obviously wouldn't know he would be lurkering, but that merely makes my vote hold.
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I guess it's the old saying "The tallest blade of grass is the first cut by the lawnmower". You responded to my callout and not Alex, so I pressed on you. Whee psychology.
Alex needs to be around more. Vague handwaving of guilt and tiptoeing back out by saying he needs more time to think isn't helping town and is usually a scum lurker strategy. Keeping my vote on him for now.
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Yoshiken and Magetastic are also falling off the radar by virtue of one post each plus newcomers to Mafia. I would like them to step up and speak whatever thoughts they have at the moment when possible.
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*Hears his name, wakes from slumber*
Mm? Sorry, I've been busy with stuff. Where were we? Ahh, yes.
I don't really have many thoughts as of yet, as there isn't too much to go on really, and, honestly, I don't know any of you well enough to know what to look for. Day 1 and 2 are probably going to be me guessing more than anything else, as I ease my way into this. Though, I suppose that if we're going to go serious now...
##Unvote Bardiche
##Vote Delta
I say that either he's lurking, or he's just not there. And if he's not there, he's not gonna be there, and is merely an obstacle to justice. Therefore, lynch the sucker.
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Sucker?
Why! I have NEVER, EVER been so THROUGHLY and UNQUESTIONABLY INSULTED by such a HYPOCRITICAL and FALLACIOUS MOCKERY of ME. I am TRULY and INCONTROVERTABLY ANNOYED with yourself, Mage. And, I am TOTALLY DISGUSTED!
Everyone else, Hi.
Yes, the above bit was for humor
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Anyway. Apologies for my absence. I would have been online about 9 hours ago, but the internet hasn't been working until now.
It's day 1. I have my vote on the person I currently consider most harmful to town, due to past experiences and the fact that he hasn't posted anything yet. *snip*
As you say, it is day one. I could have any number of reasons for not being here. I was not lurking, otherwise my name would be at the bottom of the main page, since I do not hide my name. I am not suggesting that you specifically accused me of lurking, it is just saying to everyone, that I am not lurking.
However the second part intrigues me. Metagaming? This early? I know, not really much to go on, but still.
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Just initial thoughts. Possibly more to follow.
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Eh, what, Sopko? Your suspicions of me have abated? Wonderful, please explain why I was "suspicious" to you.
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Soppy man what is this. Ace Reporter Style drips off your first major post and you press on both Laggy and myself for voting Delta and keep saying that we "need to get back in the game" when Delta hadn't even posted yet? Ain't no game to get back into, bro, and I never been out of it! Fact that you keep goin with this attitude really makin me start to question you now. Like maybe you got some info we don't that you wanna get things goin early in the mornin.
(but it's day 1, most people have nothing on them, and while this is unusual I can't say it's scummy so...)
Magetastic on the other hand is actually seriously jumping at Delta for not being here, and at this point in the game, with Soppy throwing pebbles at the windows of Delta voters, that's a little huh.
##Unvote: Delta
##Vote: Magetastic
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*mumble, grumble*
Now I don't know where to place my vote. Delta has shown himself to be present, and that means I lose my entire case against him.
##Unvote Delta
Well, I abstain until there's a real case set forth, or somebody cracks and lets something slip that shows them to be scum.
Ack, kept trying to post this, but people kept posting before me. Please take a look at this, Alex. I was just aiming at the only person I found even slightly suspicious, because there was only one person at the time. Now, I've got nothing, and I'm fully admitting it.
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Nah, my reasons for voting Delta are the same as Alex's (funnily enough), I just didn't state them outright.
So I'm not accused of dancing around the issue: voting for Delta because from past record he causes town the most damage and distraction. I obviously wouldn't know he would be lurkering, but that merely makes my vote hold.
"I know Alex was metagaming. I am too. I just didnt want to mention it, you know."
"Oh hey! He isnt here! I have a reason to lynch!"
Not an attack on Laggy although just realised that Laggy would appear to also be metagaming here.
Excal: Only one jokepost at the start, needs to post and give input on current matters.
Alex: Appears to have disappeared for a 'I need to think' session. Excuse to lurk some? He and Laggy appear to agree on some matters. Namely me.
Laggy: As above but without the lurking bit.
Bard & Tonfa: Both need to slap themselves and start contributing, because now between them it appears to be simply joke-argue, counter-joke etc.
Yoshi: Falling off the radar, as a Laggy said.
Magetastic: Appears to be new to our game of mafia. (Welcome) Appears to be on the fence about issues, but understandable right now.
Myself: I dont have much to go on as per suspicions. Excal needs to post.
##VOTE:Excal
ALENINJA: I can agree with your point about Sopko pressing people. However, I don't like this line:
Like maybe you got some info we don't that you wanna get things goin early in the mornin.
That sounds to me like you are trying to paint Sopko as a Cop or something, which is impossible to tell since there has not been a night yet. I do not like some of the things that you are doing, but I dont see them as scummy.
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Yeah, I'm in the same damn situation as Mage. Generic "still alive" post here.
Current view of events... I'm seeing Bard's initial attack/defence as entire snark, no real reading either way. Mage seems to be doing everything I did in my first game of Mafia, which... ehh. Not a Town reading, but I'm definitely not seeing that as Mafia-like either.
So far, the only real readings I'm getting are from post styles, which are simply a case of personal dislike, methinks.
I'm also somewhat intrigued by Alex's vote on Delta that Delta's mentioned (and Laggy's for apparently the same reasoning.) Why is it Delta's so harmful to town, exactly? As far as I've seen, he's generally pretty helpful.
DeltaNinja: Seems to me like he's considering Mafia!Sopko (as much as is possible for Day1). Otherwise, your post... basically clarifies a few things I'd written up here. Also, agreed, Excal needs to post more.
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I need to go, but before I do, I'd just like to try and cover the accusations set on me. And urge Bardiche and Excal to retract their votes on me if they're still joke votes. If not, then, uhm, hi Mr. Noose.
I am new to mafia, as I and a few others have said (Thank you for the welcome, Delta). Therefore, of course I'm going to be spotty about things. I'm not sure what are signs of what with, well, anybody. Except maybe Excal, though as I mentioned in my first post, he's a sneaky one. So going for Delta was the logical thing to do at the time, as it did, in fact, seem like he might not be able to make it. If you look back at my post wherein I accuse him, you'll note that I said that he's either lurking or not here, and that I was accusing him partially because I didn't want anybody to be fully absent from the game, as it would detract from the game. He then showed himself, and I retracted my vote. Now, I'm on the fence about who to vote out, because I have no real evidence or proof or anything to cast even shades of suspicion upon anyone.
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If you're new to Mafia then the first thing you need to know is that it's all posturing and figuring out people's real intentions, motivations and mindsets. Day 1 is the rockiest time of pretty much any game because the town has zero information whatsoever to go on. Everyone makes different arguments, but in the absence of any actual lynches and flips, there's no real way to tell the good from the bad except through methods like metagaming and bringing up standard practices established in past games. These methods are most often very poor, unreliable at catching scum, and should not be heavily relied on past day 1 - but on day 1 there isn't anything else!
Anyone who's confused as to why people would vote Delta right off the bat... well, all I can say is "go read archived games Delta's participated in." If you can't tell... no, you'll be able to tell. He seems to have gotten off to a better start here though, which is good!
In Mage's case here, hopping on the Delta wagon was bad, but unvoting and saying you've got nothing is worse. Day 1 cases are expected to be bad, and it's generally accepted that we're not actually going to lynch scum day 1 unless the scum team REALLY screws up (although this has happened!), but making cases is still necessary to build a groundwork of observations about everyone for future days.
Do I give Mage a pass for this, though, on the basis that any scumbuddy would coach him not to make such a newbie-scum mistake? .... no I do not. New and almost new players make up about half this game and so it is entirely possible that we're looking for two green scums. And I don't like the "oh I unvoted, Alex please look at this and take your vote off me in return" thing. If you think Delta is scummy, don't unvote him just to get pressure off yourself, and if you didn't think Delta was scummy why'd you vote him in the first place?
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On metagaming: I actually do not believe it is detrimental when drawing cases; just not to rely on it overly much. It is inevitable to an extent. In this case it's Day 1 and there wasn't that whole much else to draw on. As for why I voted Delta, I think that is self-explanatory if you were to read some past Mafia games, and I really would prefer delving into fine details as it would possibly read off like a personal attack. (And of course this just being a game, no personal offense meant to you, Delta.)
Yoshi, please do elaborate your thoughts post style. While it's hardly the only element to look for, why do you like or dislike the way certain people post? This is quite relevant as certain post styles, such as Walls of Text and Pages of Boundless Argument, are quite detrimental to town (in my opinion), and it's perfectly acceptable to voice or call out people on it.
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P.S. Alex, stop pre-empting me on what I was just going to say. Seriously. :(
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Pike off, you beat me to opening with Deltavote! (and come play poker!)
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huh. Seems my post this morning failed to go through. Annoying. Regardless, game started right when closing/opening shifts happened so I can't post much until later.
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Laggy, when I say post-style, I mostly mean the tone of the posts. Examples that I've noticed (and that show why I said it's personal opinion only) are Sopko, who seems to be going on all-out narrow-minded offensive without mercy before suddenly ignoring it again. I'm guessing that was a joke with Bard, but with you, it seems somewhat odd to just let the whole thing fall suddenly.
The other one who's bugging me is Alex. His post about Mage's newbieness seems fine to me, but his other two posts... The first basically came down to "Laggy agrees with me, so slightly Town. Sopko doesn't, so slightly Mafia." The second, he seems to aimlessly throw in this idea of "extra knowledge" which I -really- don't like - unless you've got some extra knowledge of your own, I don't think it's fair to say "This person might know something extra!" for -pressing a single case slightly-.
I'd say Alex is probably my main suspect so far, and seeing as he's not at risk of lynch, I think I'm gonna:
##Unvote: Bardiche
##Vote: Sir Alex
He does, however, raise a nice point about Mage's "I unvoted so unvote me" post, and both are looking kinda shaky to me at the moment, but he also seemed to completely miss or ignore the fact that Mage said the vote was for pressure. Once Delta had posted, there was no reason to keep the vote there.
(Also, Mage, just a point I think you missed... If someone's inactive, they get mod-killed. No reason to lynch an inactive player.)
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^^^ see this? This is why I don't like posting a lot of BS day 1. People seize on to it and go "Oh so and so's posting stupid cases!" Yeah, I'm ticked off with myself for falling for that bait, but daaaaang Soppy you are snakey there. I'm gonna let that go over Mage for now.
##Unvote: Magetastic
##Vote: Sopko
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I think Yoshi is reading way too much into specific words which really don't imply all that much on Day 1 with his case on Alex. Yes, people agreeing with you tend to earn them points in your view. Nothing concrete is being laid out either way.
##Unvote: Delta for being present and posting content, although I'm not really too impressed with the analysis. Not a big fan of mega lists saying how you feel on everyone. Pursue cases and lay arguments. And a vote trail. Speaking of which.
##Vote: Magetastic
You don't have a vote on anyone minus a single one on Delta purely for lurking. While you state that you lack any leads at the moment, consider this incentive to take a stance. Unvotes should be accompanied with votes.
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Edit: Here's the post I attempted to make. Just date it for 7:30AM PST.
Alex, can't really see why Sopko's behaviour is even minorly scummy. After all, he's taking people to task for removing themselves from the discussion at a point when we need all the discussion starters we can reasonably get. Note that yourself and Cyril wouldn't really have cause for your second posts if it weren't for his calling you to task.
Tonfa, on the other hand, I'm less sure what to make of. He very clearly called Bard to task for not taking jokevotes seriously, which... when none of them have any actual merit besides mostly random accumulation, makes sense. After all, what the heck is someone is supposed to say when the reasoning for these votes have no sound basis? But, I can't tell if he's being serious, is just trying to drum up conversation, or is just joking around.
Regardless, of the people who are talking, he's the one who's looking the worst to me at present.
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Alright, I've read things over a few times, and I'm now fairly happy with what I've seen. Namely, I've got a real case.
##Unvote: MTastic, ##Vote: Franzisca von Tonfa
Everyone else has been either posting something in response to what's going on, or at least been honest about their having nothing to say. However, this gentleman has, in his own fashion, taken the true path of lurking on Day 1. His first post is fine, it's a verbose tearing down of a verbose joke vote. Style is fine in such a phase.
What's less fine are his follow up posts, where he gets on Bard's case for... not having a serious defense for votes that have no serious basis? And then, several hours after Soppy, Cyril and Alex start their discussion, he not only doesn't have anything to add, but removes his vote with no new vote, no reason for the lack of new vote, and then makes a double post to request that people start posting more.
Heck, looking at his posts, I notice that the guy hasn't said anything about anyone else except for one mention of Delta in passing, as well as one mention of me, in the first DL Mafia game ever.
As for Sopko/Alex, aside from the WTF moment where Sopko joins the attack on Bard for not 100% committing to his joke vote, I think I'm comfortable leaving that as a Town/Town scuffle.
Now, I'm heading off to meet with friends, won't be back until late. Hopefully there'll be more to say when I do return.
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Laggy, like I said, it's mostly personal opinion. That said, personal opinion is a good thing to run on when there's no other possible case. >.>
Excal, I'd say Tonfa does definitely look suspicious, yeah, although I personally see the previous thing with Bard as joke posts. The thing that's suspicious to -me- is that those are his only posts. I'll leave my vote where it is for now, but if Tonfa makes another post without purpose, I can see that vote switching over.
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I was asleep for the entire time people have been actually saying something of consequence, I'm afraid. Shouldn't have forgotten this part of DL mafia.
You ask for why I had nothing to add to the few Sopko/Laggy/Alex posts? That is because they said nothing and already had their (weak) counter-arguments presented against themselves. I've no interest in regurgitating that.
The point of interest here is how people react to the cases made instead of the cases themselves because every case so far is terrible. The one on Magetastic would have merit if it wasn't his first game, which just makes reading a player in the early going near impossible by conventional methods. Benefit of the newbie clause, for now.
Let's see. I like Yosh for trying to wring out whatever information he can out of these dry posts. While I don't like Excal's case (well duh), it looks like him trying to pick the best of the worst. LagAlex play like one mind which convinces me one of them is town because that would be a hilariously impractical gambit as scum. Delta's list says nothing. Bardiche needs to get back to posting, he is European as well so I can see him missing page 2.
Sopko is conspicuously absent from the proceedings after getting his fingerpoints shot down despite being active in the Arkham topic. What's up?
##Vote: Sopko
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Votecount!
Delta (0): Alex, Laggy, Magetastic
Excal (1): Magetastic, Delta
SirAlex (2): Sopko, Yoshiken
Magetastic (2): Bardiche, Excal, Alex, Laggy
Bardiche (0): Magetastic, Yoshiken, Tonfa
Sopko (2): Alex, Tonfa
Tonfa (1): Excal
15 hours remaining!
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Alright, alright. Incentive noted. And yes, Yoshi, I completely missed that. I'm going to be taking a closer look at the rules in the morning. While I'm still not entirely comfortable making a vote now, I'll put up a basic listing of my thoughts about who I believe to be possi-scum, and then follow up tomorrow when I've got some sleep under my belt and can think more rationally.
Laggy, well, I'm not sure if his posts are actually a 'get things going' or if he's trying to throw out some false leads/clues here.
Alex is definitely looking a little shaky, especially since he still seems to be after me when Yoshi noted (before I could) that my unvote on Delta wasn't a 'I unvoted so unvote me!' but rather a 'I thought Laggy had a point with the lurking, guess I was wrong. Also, he's active now.' If you re-read my unvote post, I make my mention to you after noting that I had already tried to post everything before it, but there were a couple posts that came before I could do that. Although, yeah. I shouldn't have made a serious vote on Delta without something more substantial. That's a fair argument there, and so I can kinda see why you'd think I'm scum.
Yoshi suffers a little bit from Alex Syndrome, in that he seems to have an eye out for me as scum despite being the one to note that my unvote on Delta wasn't a 'I unvoted, so unvote me!' thing.
...
Actually, thinking about it, some of the better cases (from my PoV) have been made against Alex. My eye is still out on Laggy for all the 'initiative boosts' but... for now...
##Vote Alex
This is as much as a 'he rubs me the wrong way for not enough reason' thing as it is a 'hey, there's actually something that might be going on here.'
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Are you seriously saying anyone who suspects you is scummy? 'cause that's what I'm getting from that post.
Also I like your extremely vague "throwing up false leads/clues" about Laggy without quantifying in ANY way what they are.
Newbie defense shield is off. Keeping my vote on Soppy but Mage jumped into the top of my scumlist right there.
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Posting because I'm still up but not awake enough to do major analysis. Quick summation of things though.
Deadline is approaching, so it would be ideal to line up the cases. At present votecount they look like Soppy, Alex and Magetastic. Unless someone brings something really compelling I am going to pursue these for the time being.
Soppy: I actually agree with Excal despite with him going after me at first that he curried some discussion, and I in fact acknowledged this. Criticized for his narrow offensive approach and how he quickly drops it to pursue another. However I find this is about as productive as you can get in Day 1 and find it pro-townish if anything. Tonfa is right that he needs to post again though.
Alex: Scary mutual agreement aside... I'm looking at the votes. Jokevote by Soppy (justified later because he calls Alex out along with me, okay). Yoshi votes for post style complaint which I find trivial. Mage votes because generic "I find this case the most compelling". Not really convinced here, doesn't exactly clear him but not seein' the case.
Magetastic: Looks bad to me because it looks like he hopped on the Alex train, backpedaled on reasons, isn't really GIVING any reasons, blanket accusation at me doesn't really help either. Yeah, I've been mainly prodding and poking (like Soppy), because that's all you can really do Day 1. On the other hand his vote record is on Delta for lurkering, an unvote, and finally on what looks like the most recent trend train. What exactly am I doing that's scummish in getting people to vote and play? Please elaborate.
Annnd my vote's already on him, so I think I'm comfortable where that is.
-
Sleeping now, will be back for deadline though. I fully admit switching to Soppy was frustration. He/Mage are my two candidates for the moment though and man I can't really go with one over the other of em. Ehhhhh man that Mage post there though...
okay Tonfa ninjas with what I was going to say about it.
Mage, in the event you are town, you should probably know that you are phrasing your cases in the absolute scummiest terms possible. More to the point you seem to be *thinking* in the scummiest ways possible which is why I am doubting you are town enough to go back to you here over "man what the heck is he playing at?" Soppy.
##Unvote: Soppy
##Vote: Magetastic
Just going through this last post...
1. You should ALWAYS be comfortable making A vote in a normal game situation.
2. "I'll post a list and then follow up later" is not the most pro town way to get your suspicions out there, to say the least. It's a really convenient way for scum to look like they're participating without actually doing so, since your list is nearly meaningless to anyone else without the followup, which you can tailor after the fact from seeing responses. If you are town there's no reason not to fire off what you've got now and make a case rather than a list. Or in addition to a list. Especially since the game is only two pages long, it's not like there's a lot to read through here...
3. Your sentence on Laggy is a perfect example - "Well, he may be townie, or he may be scummy, I'm not sure." (aside - townie. Getting good discussion started is good stuff. (aside to aside - contrast with Soppy?))
4. The paragraph on me... I can't even tell what it's saying to be quite honest, it's full of the type of doubletalk and convolution that I skip right over because getting embroiled in that stuff is plain not helpful. But I'll tell you what, though - "Oh, I was just following Laggy's bandwagon on a lurker charge, I'm hopping off because I decided it was too trumped up" and then attacking me for still being on your case? Not much better than plain old unvoting him and attacking me for being on your case. In fact it's worse. And the only other person you mention is Laggy, whom you have an eye out for because he boosted initiative, which is generally a townie thing to do...
Rambling too much. Sleep.
Good grief laggy ninjas now. Says... same stuff with less words. SCARY MUTUAL AGREEMENT.
-
I am... confused, to say the least. And tired. And had no idea I was actually phrasing my stuff in the scummiest way possible. I'll try to keep this brief, as trying to explain myself earlier only led to self-incrimination.
I was typing that as I thought, and after Yoshi, my brain started thinking about what others had been saying about Alex, and that the only defense I really saw for him was 'him and Laggy seem to be of one mind, which seems too sketchy if they're not both town.' Whereas you're both (I think) experienced players, and while nothing aside from the big initiative thing and the Alex/Laggy thing going on jumped out at me about you, Laggy, that still stood out.
Alex, on the other hand, has been hounding me, and completely misinterpreting/ignoring things I've said. (Such as "You only mentioned me and Laggy" despite me mentioning Yoshiken, too, as a more recent example) And while it does seem that I'm just targeting people who have been voting for me, I'm not. I'm responding to them, yes. Though, I'll be honest. I'm a little confused as to why you think I'm scum because I'm trying to think about who I cast my vote for, and not just voting semi-randomly.
I think I'm keeping my vote where it is. Especially since there's a chance it's just a town/town thing, there's a chance one is taking an extremely risky town/scum gambit, but there's also a chance they're both scum, and are discussing this. The experience and the Alex/Laggy thing they got going on just really... jumps out at me. It almost feels too coordinated.
Tonfa, I can't really respond to, because re-reading what I wrote, yeah. It does look really bad. I should've continued it from there before I went to my vote. My bad.
I hope that can clear some of the air, there.
-
Forgot to mention that I also have my eye on Bard, as he seems to have completely disappeared since he got people to stop voting for him. Though that could just be timing.
-
Okay so
1. Tonfa was the one mentioning the LagAlex mind, and he actually said it was likely one of us was townie. Point quibble. Ironic since you rip on Alex for "completely misinterpreting/ignoring" your mention of Yoshi on... something I don't even know what.
2. The thing about "trying to think" is that it is such an easy shield for scum to hide behind and not take stances. Proactive townies are good townies. By all means, think, but do not be indecisive. I have stated the value of having a voting record several times. With no record there is little that can be drawn about that person later, which favors scum.
3. "So there's a chance it could be 1/3, or it could be 1/3, or it could be 1/3, and they look so much like they're working together they must be."
Somehow I can't buy the merits of this argument. (I know Alex, in fairness, and it's just true that we agree on a lot of things in general, Mafia included, but... really? Making scumteam conclusions on Day 1?) This just looks like flailing.
Really sleeping now dammit.
-
Alright. So you poke me and prod me until I give in and be as pro-active as possible. And then everything I do and say gets torn down. I'm posting my thoughts here. Whether you agree or not is up to you, but I'm just doing what you've been trying to get me to do. Both times I make a vote, and be proactive that way, you dismiss it and say that I'm not being proactive enough. And then, when you tear down everything I've said, saying I'm not providing any reasons, I give you reasons. And you dismiss those, too. You say that my conclusions are flawed and I'm making 'scummy decisions' because you think my reasoning is faulty. When many people have mentioned, multiple times, that it is day 1, and therefore there won't be much to go on. I'm not even going to 'use the newbie shield' as that only gets me backwards.
Also, I know others had mentioned it first. And yes, I did have a slight misread. My bad. I admit it. Oh well. At least I'm addressing most everything thrown at me, even though I know it'll probably look scummy. I really don't care. I like to be thorough. It's who I am. Sue me.
So. If you want to finger me, claiming it as a push towards activity, and then dismiss everything I say and do, despite it being what you've asked for, then I really don't see much point in arguing with you anymore, as it's as good as talking to a brick wall.
[/rant]
-
Eh, the argument of "This guy said something really convincing, until it totally wasn't and so I accused him of being scum" is bad to start with. And that is apparently your case on Delta, followed by your case on Cyril. As for your case on Alex, so far as I can tell, it's based on two things. The first is buying into the hype that we get every game of "Oh dear lord, Alex is acting like Alex! Lynch him!!!" which is fairly absurd. The other is that you find him scummy for... finding you scummy? For daring to call you out? For not actually taking you at your word in a game where two members are expected to lie through their teeth and you don't know who they are?
As for your talking about other people? No, you have only talked about Cyril and Alex. Sure, you've mentioned Yoshi, but not because of any merits as to whether or not he's town. You've mentioned him in so far as he's been defending you, and solely using his quotes in your defense. Your mentions of him have strictly been "He thinks I'm Town, so why don't you?"
So, yeah. Misinterpretation? Not so much misinterpretation as it is Alex generally taking what you say in the worst possible way. And don't feel singled out, he does it to everyone. It's how he plays. And he's one of the best players on this forum because of it. He's not always right, but it works, however much it sucks to be on the wrong end of it.
So, here's my main advice if you're town. Make your defense where you can, and when you can't (as you seem to be at the point of) then move on. Town gains nothing from you covering your own ass all day. It just means that you get to spend the next day doing the exact same thing. Instead, do your best to find someone who is scum.
Sadly, all of this kerfuffle gives me precisely a null read on Alex... for all that, yeah. If it's really going to be down to Soppy, Alex and Mage, it does look like Mage is going to be tops on my list.
-
Again: Going off of interpretation and gut instincts with this one, and I don't have enough on anyone else to really switch my vote. As has been mentioned, Day 1.
And, alright. Alright. Coming at this from a "If I'm town, then..." standpoint has gotten me backwards. So let's come at this from a "If I were scum, then..." standpoint.
If I were scum, and there are only two, then why has nobody actually made any moves to defend me. Yoshi's done the best job so far, and he still said that I was suspicious. If I were scum, what would the other scum gain by allowing me to die? Then the town needs a lucky kill and it's game over. It's way too risky to really be worth taking. If I were scum, then somebody would have made a move to defend me, even if a small one. And I'm not talking double-edged, like Yoshi's. I'm talking about real defense. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And if it makes sense to you, then by all means, tell me how.
Also, Excal, you've got the details a little fuzzy there with the whole Deltavote thing. Though I'll attribute that to sleep deprivation. I am also a little curious as to where you got the number '2' for how many scum there are. That seemed kinda exact to me. Clarification if possible, please.
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If you were scum, and your buddy wasn't able to save you, then all the attempt would really do would paint a big ol' target to him. After all, even townies have a hard time surviving the mistake of defending scum too hard. Besides, some of the easiest scum wins we've seen here have involved one scum being the driving force behind his only partner's lynch on Day 1, and then coasting on that for the rest of the game, often to the point where the last two townies consider the scum to be enough beyond reproach that they're voting for each other.
As for how I know there's two people? Simple math, if a 9 player game, 3 scum means 6 town, or likely 4 town on Day 2, complete with LYLO. And 1 scum means that we have a vig survivor instead of real scum. Part of how scum play differently and can be caught is the fact that they have knowledge they shouldn't, and that knowledge changes how they play the game. And it's those changes that you have to spot.
And that point also brings us back to your first question. Your scum buddy wouldn't want to jump out and defend you because a defense for no reason is a bloody scummy thing indeed.
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When you put it that way, yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that.
Well, I have no solid cases whatsoever, and my method of deduction is entirely wrong for this form of mafia. So, I guess Day 1 is going to end full of drama, and with me getting to know Mr. Noose very, very well.
Though I will
##Unvote Alex
until I have a better idea of where to place my vote. (AKA: It really doesn't matter at this point, I'm sure, so who really cares)
-
If you genuinely are town, I'd like to give you the tip that the woe is me attitude is absolute worst one you can take since it helps no one.
Waiting on Soppy before any further conclusions.
-
On Mage:
I am confused as to your alignment. I don't know if you are bad scum or bad townie, because:
Alright, alright. Incentive noted. And yes, Yoshi, I completely missed that. I'm going to be taking a closer look at the rules in the morning. While I'm still not entirely comfortable making a vote now, I'll put up a basic listing of my thoughts about who I believe to be possi-scum, and then follow up tomorrow when I've got some sleep under my belt and can think more rationally.
Laggy, well, I'm not sure if his posts are actually a 'get things going' or if he's trying to throw out some false leads/clues here.
Alex is definitely looking a little shaky, especially since he still seems to be after me when Yoshi noted (before I could) that my unvote on Delta wasn't a 'I unvoted so unvote me!' but rather a 'I thought Laggy had a point with the lurking, guess I was wrong. Also, he's active now.' If you re-read my unvote post, I make my mention to you after noting that I had already tried to post everything before it, but there were a couple posts that came before I could do that. Although, yeah. I shouldn't have made a serious vote on Delta without something more substantial. That's a fair argument there, and so I can kinda see why you'd think I'm scum.
Yoshi suffers a little bit from Alex Syndrome, in that he seems to have an eye out for me as scum despite being the one to note that my unvote on Delta wasn't a 'I unvoted, so unvote me!' thing.
...
Actually, thinking about it, some of the better cases (from my PoV) have been made against Alex. My eye is still out on Laggy for all the 'initiative boosts' but... for now...
##Vote Alex
This is as much as a 'he rubs me the wrong way for not enough reason' thing as it is a 'hey, there's actually something that might be going on here.'
Hokay. What are these 'false leads' or 'clues' that Laggy has been throwing out? Is this just a scummy attempt to get attention away from you? It appears to be, since you still haven't described them by this stage:
Well, I have no solid cases whatsoever,
On the underlined parts, two posts above, you appear to belittle what Alex was doing, however in the same post you also appear to be throwing an accusation at Yoshi for the same thing. On the third underlined part, you almost make it seem like an OMGUS, which is still not good play. Even if this is a desparate attempt to get yourself saved, it is still unhelpful to town. I know, I learned that the hard way in previous games.
--
Actually, thinking about it, some of the better cases (from my PoV) have been made against Alex. My eye is still out on Laggy for all the 'initiative boosts' but... for now...
Here, you seem to attempt to say that Alex is scum. However, just because people have cases on them, it does not mean that they are better. You may be trying to paint Alex here.
--
Magetastic to me seems to be scummiest at the moment. Currently, he has no cases (and hasnt formed one all game, to my view), so:
##UNVOTE:Excal,
##VOTE: Magetastic
As far as I am aware, that puts him at -1 to hammer.
Quick run-through of other people:
Alex: Wants to press people, pushing Mage around a bit. Seems to be generally town to me. Some good ideas, but I don't know. Leaning town.
Laggy: Neutral, seems to be mostly agreeing or re-phrasing what Alex says, in my opinion.
Mage: Well, this sums it up for me:
If I were scum, and there are only two,
Tonfa: Not really contributing much, seems set on a Lag/Alex... thing.
Heck, looking at his posts, I notice that the guy hasn't said anything about anyone else except for one mention of Delta in passing, as well as one mention of me, in the first DL Mafia game ever.
I have to agree with Excal here. Although you may have been asleep, you were present when Sopko/Laggy/Alex started, and no comment on them, and still you appear to be focusing on Mage, apart from:
Waiting on Soppy before any further conclusions.
Which is simply an excuse for not contributing in my view, but having never played with Tonfa before, I don't know. I know that is metagaming (in a weird way) but I don't know. Got my eye on Tonfa.
Lag/Alex possibilities: One might be trying to buddy up to the other for later, but I simply cannot see what is going on, and I'm not going to start that kind of shitstorm thinking right now.
Bard: Seems to have stayed in the jokevote phase, needs to post soon in all honesty. Only one post that seems serious, which asks Sopko for reasons as per his 'suspicions'.
Sopko: As before.
Excal: Seems to be trying to guess the game setup, with maths. However seems to have failed to read the Topic Starter.
Third Party (None will exist in a game with less than 13 people in it, guaranteed.)
Serial Killer (May be bulletproof, may flip town to investigations.)
Survivor (Doesn't need to be eliminated by either side, may possess any other role.)
Hmph.
Yoshiken: Appears to be trying to half-defend Mage, whilst Mage is seemingly painting Yoshi as scum. Based on Mage's behaviour towards them (assuming there are two members of the mafia), I can see a Yoshi/Mage or Mage/Tonfa scumteam right now, but I don't want to go to far ahead with my thinking right now, instead preferring to focus on current and past events.
-
Votecount!
Delta (0): Alex, Laggy, Magetastic
Excal (0): Magetastic, Delta
SirAlex (2): Sopko, Yoshiken, Magetastic
Magetastic (4): Bardiche, Excal, Alex, Laggy, Alex, Delta
Bardiche (0): Magetastic, Yoshiken, Tonfa
Sopko (1): Alex, Tonfa
Tonfa (1): Excal
10 hours remaining! Magetastic is at L-1!
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(http://grs.negative0.net/SA%20Smilies/emot-psyduck.gif)
I can certainly see what you were saying about Delta.
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Mage: Well, this sums it up for me:
If I were scum, and there are only two,
To be fair, Excal had just said in the post before "..a game where two members are expected to.." referring to the Mafia.
Excal: Seems to be trying to guess the game setup, with maths. However seems to have failed to read the Topic Starter.
He... did? As far as I can tell, he's assumed there's only one scumteam, and that it most likely has two players due to the numbers in-game, which makes a lot of sense to me...
Tonfa's posted a little more now (I knew you were asleep/inactive for at least part of the last few pages, but not -all- of it, right?), but I'm still getting no reading at all.
Currently thinking that either one of Laggy/Alex is possibly Mafia, almost certainly not both. Day1 case, though, so will hold little ground past Day1, methinks.
More importantly, Sopko & Mage. Sopko -really needs to reappear fast-. A train built up against him, he disappeared and suddenly so does the attention. No matter what course of action he takes now, it's not looking good for him.
Mage... Okay. Some of the earlier mistakes, I could pass off for being new at the game. But... you were told repeatedly: Make progress. Promote conversation and cases. And, more importantly, -always- aim to have -someone- you're aiming for. So what do you do after all this? You remove your vote from Alex and leave us with no case whatsoever. If you weren't at -1 to lynch, I think my vote would be moving about now.
So, looking towards Bard (who, as has been noted, hasn't posted much content either), Sopko & Mage here: who do you think are currently the prime suspects? (I would say Tonfa as well, but he's already posted it not long ago. I just still can't get a reading from it. =/)
TonfaNinja: ...Says nothing, but I like the Psyduck. =P
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Excal: Seems to be trying to guess the game setup, with maths. However seems to have failed to read the Topic Starter.
He... did? As far as I can tell, he's assumed there's only one scumteam, and that it most likely has two players due to the numbers in-game, which makes a lot of sense to me...
What I meant by that was his 1 scum, one survivor vig theory for the setup. Apologies for not clarifying enough.
Excal: Seems to be trying to guess the game setup, with maths. However seems to have failed to read the Topic Starter.
Third Party (None will exist in a game with less than 13 people in it, guaranteed.)
Serial Killer (May be bulletproof, may flip town to investigations.)
Survivor (Doesn't need to be eliminated by either side, may possess any other role.)
...Yeah.
-
Okay guys, I'm back! Sorry, I don't have the wealth of free time I used to have any more! Well, let's remove my jotevote and go for srs bsns now.
##UNVOTE: Magetastic
##VOTE: Sopko
Yeah, I've seen the stuff about Alex and Magetastic. But honestly? I think Sopko's a bit worse. For one, he's gone inactive now, and while I was as well I'd like to hope that this vote'll at least draw him out if he's lurking. Since I also think he's scum, I'm pretty confident with putting my vote on him.
The first impression Sopko leaves to me is commentator style. He's also misrepresenting the part about me being 'pressured'. Sure, it might've been a joke by that stage, and I've considered it... but it could've also gone bad, and I fail to understand his part of 'abate suspicions'. How had I racked up suspicions by refusing to refute jokevotes?
Tonfa is another who leaves me terribly confused since he wanted me to actually defend myself, but unlike Sopko he's contributing now, and I'm more interested in a Sopko lynch presently.
RE: Magetastic
Willing to chalk it up to newbie mistakes. I find it a bit alarming people are spending so much attention on him without looking at the other possibilities. Certainly Sopko merits some attention as well!
Excal, you say you prefer Mage over Sopko and Alex, if I understand correctly! Can you share thoughts on Sopko? How do you feel about him right now?
Delta, my man, my bro. Seriously, what? You're misreading Excal, I think, can you go back and read his post again? I agree that it's distracting and worthless discussion he's having with Magetastic re: setups, but really Delta, are you just going to draw that out by talk about it again?
-
Re: Bard- Joke vote or not, implying your vote is serious then backing off with a "PS- I'm joking! ::Insert Krusty laugh::" is never helpful and always suspicious. It was meant as a discussion icebreaker and I can't say I've seen anything wrong with you since.
I honestly got a null read from Mage at first glance. The only red flag I personally saw was his "If I'm scum, why am I not being defended?" song and dance. Which is bad juju usually. Re-reading after taking some of the points in the topic into account, he does seem to be playing from the newbie scum playbook check by check.
My joke vote against Alex turned into a serious one due to his first couple posts of the game. (Though I know he'll probably be mad at me afterwards), they just had a very strange tone to me. Since the second page has started, he's gone back to SirAlex the Supersleuth instead of SirAlex the SuperSnark, so... pro-town in that he's spurring good discussion day one, pro-scum in that he seems to be train hopping despite being a discussion leader.
All things being equal, I guess I'll vote to get rid of the player with less experience this time and see how that ends up.
##Unvote: Alex
##Vote: Magetastic
-
Awake again. Not seeing anything really changing. Am I interpreting Mage's actions in the worst way possible? ... probably, yeah. Thing is, it's day 1, I don't see anyone as worse (Soppy is close but not topping and that's a big can of worms to open), and most to the point, Mage hasn't done anything that I can look the other way on and construe as particularly protown. On the "what if he's town" side the only thing I can come up with is the old "too new/dumb to be scum" defense, and in a game with this many newish players I'm not extending anyone credit on that.
Other people... Yoshi is heavily playing the newbie card and not really coming up with much beyond what other people have said, but that's not unexpected. Laggy is apparently my thoughtbrother, which is weird but I have no real cause to suspect him at the moment. Got a townie vibe on Tonfa so far just out of tone of discussion, and to a lesser extent Excal. Bard no real read on. Delta is Delta.
Soppy.... Soppy left a real sore taste in my mouth with his first major post, and if that had been later in the game I'd be calling for his lynch. But it WAS his first major post on day 1. He's ninjaing me now and saying... the same thing about me that I can say about him. Good discussion, no real red flags there now, and yet it's very nonconfrontational and says almost word for word "Well Mage is an easy train so I'll move onto it and see what happens." Augh. EYE OF STARING.
In a 9 man billed as generic and boring we're dealing with two scum guaranteed by the way, Rat said no third parties whatsoever in <13 players.
Ordinarily I would let this go without saying, but since Mage is new - you're floating around -1 to hammer, deadline's not far and it's and looking like you're going to be lynched today. You should probably roleclaim.
-
Well, Sopko turned up. His absence there still looks bad to me and I don't really get what the Alex feud/case is about. Eh. Definitely need to relook. Only player I'm feeling as solid town right now is Laggy, anyway.
On the scum side, nothing Mage said is really making my opinion waver here, I'm perfectly willing to hammer closer to deadline.
-
(http://grs.negative0.net/SA%20Smilies/emot-psyduck.gif) is right.
I sorta kiiiinda see the case on Soppy but... not really. Like I said, I'm not thoroughly bothered by his playstyle which seems to be the leading charge, and honestly the most notable thing that he's done is leap onto the end of the Mage train, which looks kind of bad. But at only Day 1 I'm not willing to read that hard either way; I certainly approve of productive use of time for town and not resorting to the deadline to actually get anything done.
Pretty much waiting on the Mage roleclaim. (Somewhat out-of-game, regardless of what you're playing, don't take things too personally, man. It's an argumentative game, and you have to understand that critique WILL come, disagreements WILL happen, and you can't let it frustrate you from making your stance. Sorry if I came off as too hard; Excal and Tonfa pretty much summed up what I would have replied though.)
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Other people... Yoshi is heavily playing the newbie card and not really coming up with much beyond what other people have said, but that's not unexpected.
I... wait, where? Newbie card? As far as I can see, you're the second person to mention me being relatively new to Mafia, and the first one wasn't me, so I'm not too sure what you mean here. Care to elaborate?
Yeah, definitely Mage roleclaim time. He's pretty much done for without it.
The case on Sopko started off as playstyle, yeah. The thing that bugs me is that the case built up and he disappeared from the game while still being active around the forums, then suddenly reappears once the case has turned to inactivity/lurking. That seems... really suspicious to me, at least.
-
Roleclaim? What's that?
And I didn't mean my last one to be a 'woe is me post,' sorry.
And I guess that saying "I don't think the same as pretty much any of you" won't help me one bit?
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Roleclaim is revealing what role you play.
I'm still after Sopko. Especially now that he jumps on Magetastic for... what, exactly? Blatant jumping on a train or what? Somehow this game feels more vicious than normally to me.
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May as well. Vanilla town.
-
Slightly less than three hours to go. Is everyone done with their discussion/voting, or are we gonna keep this up?
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Pretty much. Nothing new to say here.
-
I'm still after Sopko. Especially now that he jumps on Magetastic for... what, exactly? Blatant jumping on a train or what? Somehow this game feels more vicious than normally to me.
I wouldn't call it vicious, especially compared to past games. I has been pretty productive for Day 1 though.
There are certain logical arguments that Mage has used that people who are playing scum for the first time has run down point by point. The first and most major to me is trying to reason that if he was scum, there would be another scum coming to his defense because it's day 1 and it would put scum in a bad position if he were lynched. This is just a flawed argument for many reasons, and even if he's town it's a hard sell and can lead to massive WIFOMing. He's also been throwing a vote wherever and whenever he wants and changing it five seconds later when a better opportunity comes up for... not great reasoning. He's just kindof been coasting and whenever asked for his own opinion, it's always "well, he could be scum, but he might not be!". Tiptoeing around stuff like that is usually to avoid saying anything incriminating. Scum are the ones that need to worry about incrimination.
Yeah, switching from Alex to Mage was suspicious. So what? I'm trying to find scum here, and there are good reasons to go with Mage for Day 1. Better reasons than I have for Alex at the moment. Convenient? Maybe. But I'm not gonna be afraid of how it looks if I think the person I'm switching to is more likely to be scum.
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*sigh* So it goes, I suppose. Made plenty of bad decisions, and that's gonna lead to me being lynched. Nature of the game. Also, shouldn't have talked so much when I was so sleepy. Definitely a stupid move there. Anyways.
I will say that I am very much unused to e-mafia, and so the playstyle is completely different from what I'm used to -- namely, taking a step back to try and deduce, instead of rushing headlong into things, is how I play. It just kinda is. And rushing headlong into things is generally a scummy way of doing things, from what I'm used to.
##Vote Delta
After getting the votes on him removed, he promptly vanished, and then re-appeared to do not much but talk about what was already settled, which seems like stalling and/or distraction to me. Definitely scummy.
Soppy ninja'ed a post in, and my only response, is that I've been worried about incrimination because I don't like dying (who does?) and I got right up to being one of the candidates from the get-go, pretty much. I have spent almost all of day 1 tied for the noose, and now I'm heading straight for it. Though I attribute the more recent direction to poor choices on my part.
-
Right, let's do this.
##Unvote
##Vote: Magetastic
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Votecount!
Delta (1): Alex, Laggy, MagetasticMagetastic
Excal (0): Magetastic, Delta
SirAlex (1): Sopko, Yoshiken, Magetastic
Magetastic (5):Bardiche, Excal, Alex, Laggy, Alex, Delta, Sopko, Tonfa
Bardiche (0): Magetastic, Yoshiken, Tonfa
Sopko (1): Alex, Tonfa, Bardiche
Tonfa (1): Excal
HAMMER!
Magetastic was LYNCHED!
He was a VANILLA TOWNIE!
Night ACTIONS!
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IT IS DAY 2!
Excal is dead! On Night 1! Is this even newsworthy? Is anyone surprised?
Excal was VANILLA TOWN!
Players Remaining
1. Bardiche
3. Tonfa
4. Yoshiken
6. DELTAAAAAAAAAAA
7. Laggy
8. Sopko
9. SirAlex
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch! 48 hours remaining!
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##VOTE: Sopko
I would've liked you to convey reasons for switching votes before switching votes, not after you've been pressed for one.
The subtle selling of town being allowed to do suspicious things also doesn't sit well with me:
He's just kindof been coasting and whenever asked for his own opinion, it's always "well, he could be scum, but he might not be!". Tiptoeing around stuff like that is usually to avoid saying anything incriminating. Scum are the ones that need to worry about incrimination.
Yeah, switching from Alex to Mage was suspicious. So what? I'm trying to find scum here, and there are good reasons to go with Mage for Day 1. Better reasons than I have for Alex at the moment. Convenient? Maybe. But I'm not gonna be afraid of how it looks if I think the person I'm switching to is more likely to be scum.
Town also need to care about not appearing suspicious. This isn't just a scum-only thing. Saying "scum are the ones that need to worry about incrimination" and then going "I don't care if I look suspicious anyway!" makes me feel awfully bad about you, and more confident in wanting to get you lynched.
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Yeah, I'm still eyeing those same few people from yesterday.
Alex, could you go back and answer my question from my last post please? I asked you to elaborate, and your next post was "Nothing new to say here."
Also, seconding Bard on town not wanting to look incriminating. Hell, I should think that's fairly obvious - any Townie who looks incriminating gets lynched, and that's one step closer to Mafia win. (Think this should be even more obvious now, after Day 1. >.>)
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After rereading, my suspicions go to Mr. Sopko.
Open the game with jokevote, post some blatantly strained cheerleading, for some reason get on Laggy's case for his jokevote, make a strange comment about Bardiche (which is justified only much later when he is called out on it), quickly slip out of that and into hounding Alex, disappear, come back much later slipping out of his case and word a vote on Mage in a totally non-committed wishy-washy way(and again, this is justified only when he is called out on it).
What the heck is this?
There was something I didn't like about Sopko's style that I couldn't put my finger on, but putting it in a list form like that verifies to me that every post of his after the first has been scummy. I know Sopko's a decently experienced player, but to be honest he's never been able to shake off his scumtells when playing scum, which is why I'm not willing to even think about passing this as "nah he wouldn't be that blatant."
I'm willing to give'im the second vote because man what.
##Vote: Sopko
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All I'll say about that is that, Bard, is what I've said. Catching scum supercedes EVERYTHING. I'm not going to keep my vote on someone who I think is less likely to be scum just because it's suspicious to change my vote.
My attention goes to Tonfa this turn. Re-reading the topic, his play is what jumped out at me the most. He was absent for long stretches of time, his posts are almost always centered on me exclusively with very little dancing around other major issues, voting Mage being chief among them. So Tonfa, why DID you vote Mage? Cause I'm not seeing much explanation yesterday, even post-vote.
Delta also takes a looooooong time to get into the game, and even longer to make a substantive post. Two of them being list posts that just summarize. He DOES manage in a few unique points other than these, but I do want to follow up on him. Delta: who do you think is most likely to be scum now?
My gut also wants to keep on Alex, but I can't really support this with evidence so I'll leave it at that.
NINJA'D by Tonfa: My mind works weirdly in mafia. I notice odd things and I call people out on them. Sometimes they seem inconsequential and they can be, but it does work. But other than that, basically you're saying I'm scummy because I... saw things odd about people and went after them for it? Better that than someone who waved off responsibility of catching scum because I wasn't around.
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I'll bite.
absent for long stretches of time
Oh. Yes, like that one I time I slept. Lovely use of plural here when plural cases do not exist. Unless 4 hours counts as a long absence somehow. Funny that you would bring it up though considering you were absent for over a 23 hour period during a 48 hour day though!
his posts are almost always centered on me exclusively with very little dancing around other major issues, voting Mage being chief among them.
Oh, this one's just plain funny. I dug up my post history just to check actually. I don't even mention you until my 5th post where I give you that pressurevote for lurking. After that, I make a quick reminder on the bottom of each of my posts that yes, I'm still waiting for you to post more. Until you do. Logical, would you not agree? Also here's more scumtalk in unnecessary pluralization - other major issues?
Really. Besides the case of Mage, I would love to see anyone in this game to point me a Major Issue that was discussed during day one. Because there weren't any! You'll need to tell me what on earth was major before I'm able to dance around it, I'm afraid.
So Tonfa, why DID you vote Mage? Cause I'm not seeing much explanation yesterday, even post-vote.
Not that you seem to have read my posts since you seem to be thinking I centered on you exclusively, but alright. There was no post-vote explanation because it was the hammer. How about pre-vote?
Are you seriously saying anyone who suspects you is scummy? 'cause that's what I'm getting from that post.
Also I like your extremely vague "throwing up false leads/clues" about Laggy without quantifying in ANY way what they are.
Newbie defense shield is off. Keeping my vote on Soppy but Mage jumped into the top of my scumlist right there.
The vote on you being a pressurevote to post more, remember.
Then Laggy comes in, throws a few other points against Mage, and Alex basically goes "what they said". Nothing Mage said made him look any better, and I announce my intent to hammer after his claim unless it's something particularly earthshattering. There are no other MAJOR ISSUES to discuss at that point. And thus, I do. Simple.
My mind works weirdly in mafia. I notice odd things and I call people out on them. Sometimes they seem inconsequential and they can be, but it does work. But other than that, basically you're saying I'm scummy because I... saw things odd about people and went after them for it? Better that than someone who waved off responsibility of catching scum because I wasn't around.
I like the completely non-factual shot in the last sentence again. Anyway, any point you latched onto was minor and the way you just subtly drop arguments makes me feel you are just scum looking for the right buttons to push to stir up a nice lynchtrain.
Apologies for bordering on megapost. Well, nothing more to do now but to wait for people to awaken to the presence of day 2 here.
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Yoshi - the question about you being a new player? If so, it's just... your general playstyle. Your cases have stuck to very obvious cues and you're not really considering how manipulative people in this game can be. (As scum OR town!) You took my comment about Soppy "maybe knowing something extra" seriously, and didn't seem to get that it was a "maybe you're scum!" joke. (Well, half joke. More on that in a moment. But the half that was a joke flew right over your head.) You say things like "If Tonfa makes another post like that, I'll vote for him!" - which is not very useful because Tonfa now knows he shouldn't make a post like that! You don't know about Delta. And so forth. This isn't meant negatively, you're just obviously new to the game and haven't learned some of the ins and outs that veterans take for granted yet.
But now we got day 2.
RAINBOW OF DECREASING TOWNIENESS
Sir "Shuckle" Alex, infallible town hypercharger
The Honorable Richard "Tonfa" Hawk, who has been posting consistently good stuff, I don't see myself voting him today.
gap
Thoughtbrother Laggy, whom I am slightly suspicious of due to the obvious, but can't really find a case on him also due to the obvious.
gap
Yoshiken, who as previously mentioned has sat and played the newbie card. Could be scum with any partner. No real read.
gap
Bardiche, who has extremely aggressively pushed Soppy both days and... not said too much about anyone else. I feel like a Bard/Soppy scumteam is definitely possible here. Also of note is that both Bard and Yoshi are saying that town should try not to get lynched
Soppy, whose case I have previously brought up, under discussion, etc. He is the obvious choice for today.
SOMEWHERE OFF IN OUTER SPACE
Delta. Honestly, asking Delta his thoughts on things never helps, I can't read him. Instead I'd like to see everyone else say what they think about Delta. For my part to start off, I think he's been a little more lucid this game, but also more in the background than I would expect for two people voting him immediately, even as jokes. I could definitely see him as scum being told to sit quietly.
At this point I think the scum are most likely two of Yoshi/Bard/Soppy/Delta, and Bard and Soppy are my top two right now.
Soppy... aaaaugh. On the one hand there's all the scummy feeling from the beginning, and the move to Mage. On the other hand...
"Yeah, switching from Alex to Mage was suspicious. So what? I'm trying to find scum here, and there are good reasons to go with Mage for Day 1. Better reasons than I have for Alex at the moment. Convenient? Maybe. But I'm not gonna be afraid of how it looks if I think the person I'm switching to is more likely to be scum."
Bard quotes this post as an attack on him. I find it a good defense that gives me my first whiff of townie from Soppy this game. Soppy's entirely right, town SHOULDN'T worry about preserving their own lives at the cost of making cases and lynching scum, and I vastly disagree with what Bard and Yoshi said on the matter. +Soppy, -Bard/Yoshi. And yet... these are basic playstyle arguments that anyone could make regardless of alignment. Mrf.
Then Soppy starts going after Tonfa. I find Tonfa very townie, even on a reread, and don't agree with Soppy's statements about his posts. And yet this is exactly the sort of thing I can see a flustered townie who's been off their game go for. And yet... not, as it could and did draw Tonfa into a slapfight.
I'm torn between voting Soppy or Bard right now. I'd especially like some people to weigh in on Bard.
##Vote: Bard because I don't want to put Soppy at -1 with Delta at large.
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Chiming in on the Soppy case... in Day 1 he jokevotes for Alex, which stays on for a minor point, and never switches off that vote until the train on Mage is already well on its way. I said I'd give him credit for doing that during Day 1 for the sake of being productive; and frankly, his Alex case wasn't particularly convincing (he admits now it was more instinct than reason).
Admittedly part of the reason I didn't kneejerk Soppy looking scummy was because his play isn't really deviating all that much from how he normally does (yay metagaming). Tonfa's got valid points about his attacks pretty much whiffing though. He's yet to build a convincing case on anyone to me and his Day 1 record is sparse. Realizing how few his Day 1 posts were and now looking at his vote switch... he basically says he has mostly a null read on Mage, but his concern on Alex has dropped so he's going to switch.
But now you're defending that as a vote to the person you find scummier, while simultaneously saying Alex still bothers you. I dunno. It's technically not conflicting (Mage did flip town) but it feels off. He's got enough votes on him now that I will withhold on that though.
Yoshi is the other person that I'm kind of looking hard at. Escaped detection completely Day 1, and just like Soppy, he pressed on Alex for seemingly weird stuff (for his response in the Soppy/Alex slapfight even) and... didn't vote at all past that. Several of his posts read like lists, which bother me (yes, I'm aware I'm the one who called him to say stuff, but just like with Mage, calling for someone to post does not mean that you'll like the response and will take it as pro-town). He posts content, but never pushes it hard with votes. If you are really that up and bothered about Alex not responding about the newbie card bit, vote him. Lacking that commitment makes it look like you don't want to get incriminated for things and looks scummy.
Taking my own advice, ##Vote: Yoshiken
Delta still hasn't posted.
ARGH NINJA'D BY ALEX
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(Seriously, 32 seconds past the minute to 12? Screw you man.)
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Alex still isn't my main suspect. I'm looking primarily at Sopko, with Alex as a distant 2nd. However, as Alex has said, putting him at L-1 so soon is kinda... yeah, not gonna happen. So yeah. No vote yet.
Alex: Your "half-joke" came at the end of an otherwise serious post. Were you honestly expecting -everyone- would just casually ignore it? And I've been in a couple of games with Delta before. You said yourself there, -you- can't read him. I've personally found that he really stands out when playing Mafia, and is otherwise a pretty helpful town player.
Laggy: In all honesty, I'm as surprised as you that I completely avoided detection. I said at the time, when I was talking about Alex, that it was mostly personal opinion and I'd look at better alternatives as the day continued. Then, Mage became the prime suspect and... very quickly went to L-1. Yeah, I wasn't exactly gonna change my vote at -that- stage, was I?
As for pushing things with votes, I'm fairly sure that's just a different playstyle. I'm active enough to vote for people if they give a bad or no response, so I'd rather see what people actually have to say before voting them. As long as the decision's made at the end of the day, does it really matter? Suspicion draws out lurkers just as well as votes, from what I've seen.
And, with that, I'm going to wait to see what Delta has to say, at least, before I make a further decision. Ho-hum.
ALEX SPEAKING HERE: OH GOD WHY AM I A MOD IN THIS FORUM I CANNOT EVEN PERFORM SIMPLE TASKS. I hit "modify" on this post when I meant to hit "quote" and wound up replacing it with my own post (which you will see further down momentarily. I sincerely apologize about this and have restored Yoshi's original post.
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It may be a different playstyle but it's one I'm going to continuing making a contention about.
By voting, you are exercising the primary power town has available to defeat scum - lynching them. All sorts of interesting things happen when people get put -2 or -1 to hammer and it curries discussion. It solidifies that you are serious about your argument and not getting away with blanket "I have my eye on you!"; scum can easily coast on such sentiments by claiming they are active without any actual commitment. Remember, scum know that everyone else is town, and have to lie through their teeth when pursuing cases. Parroting other people and never taking decisive stances via voting is just too easy an option for them to take, and I will continue to see people reluctant to vote as acting in a negative way for town.
And at its own basic principle the game isn't going to get anywhere without voting. Letting things drag to deadline and not starting trains and cases on people stagnates the game, allows for less productive discussion, and lets scum sit there laughing as town sits around on its thumbs. I'm not saying to jump around voting everyone and everything you see (that would look just as bad), but you SHOULD be pursuing cases, and you SHOULD be doing so with votes.
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Alex: Your "half-joke" came at the end of an otherwise serious post. Were you honestly expecting -everyone- would just casually ignore it?
Yes. Unless they had something to say about the non-joke half, which was an obvious jab at Soppy that... well what else is there to say about it.
And I've been in a couple of games with Delta before. You said yourself there, -you- can't read him. I've personally found that he really stands out when playing Mafia, and is otherwise a pretty helpful town player.
Your stance on Delta is duly noted I guess.
BUT
I thought some more and figured out what was bothering me.
Bard has this tendency to go heavy reporter style, especially when scum. I've called him on it and flipped him scum in at least two games. This game... he ISN'T doing that.
Soppy on the other hand... the bad vibe I got from his very first serious post was because it was made in Super Bardscum Style. Attacking Super Bardscum Style has not often led me wrong.
hissss
##Unvote: Bard
Not Quite Official Vote: Soppy. (I would be willing to put it officially on him now but I still don't want ninjadeltahammer.)
THIS TIME WITH LESS FAILURE IN POSTING
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I'm still not placing a vote yet until Delta's posted. I am NOT putting someone at L-1 without hearing from everyone first. I can safely say I will vote when the time comes for it, but that time just isn't yet.
Re-reading now, I'm still somewhat confused by this idea. Why is it that people seem to insist that it's perfectly fine for Town to look suspicious? Sopko starts by saying that he'd happily look suspicious on the grounds of -trying- to find scum (fine on its own, but not looking suspicious while finding scum is certainly better), and then Alex says both me & Bard look suspicious, and says:
Also of note is that both Bard and Yoshi are saying that town should try not to get lynched.
Well, uhh, no shit? If Town get lynched, Town lose. Surely Mage Day1 shows exactly -why- Town shouldn't look suspicious.
Alex!Ninja: Tch. The metagaming bothers me as the basis for voting, but it has worked before, so... Hmm. No further read on that post, still slightly suspicious, still far behind Sopko on suspicion.
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What? So uh, I need to look at people other than Sopko?
Making a list is worthless, but alright, let's see what I think of others.
I'm slightly wary of Laggy/Alex. Not because of their content, because I find their participation to be solid and benevolent. But the fact they keep hiveminding/ninjaposting eachother? >_> It's just too coincidental and things that are coincidental deserve scrutiny. Otherwise neither strike me particularly as people I want to pursue as possible scum.
Delta is like he always is. Nothing he says is new to me, and overall while he's trying to be of use he doesn't bring anything new to the table. This is nothing different from his usual conduit. I get why people want to lynch him, but I have never-ending faith in people not screwing up constantly.
Actually, the only other person I'm specifically wary of other than Sopko is Tonfa. I'm afraid I can't really explain my suspicions for Tonfa rationally, but he rubs me the wrong way in that it seems he's... not really presenting new cases? He jumps on Sopko when I did, and jumped on Magetastic when everyone else did. His only other vote was a prod vote on Sopko Day 1, then an ultimate switch for hammer on Mage?
I'm also a bit confused about him sticking his vote on me for not defending against jokevotes. Of course, it's a WIFOM web there, so.
Comfortable with my present vote.
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Yoshi: I am not exonerating you for not placing a vote on Soppy right now (I agree that putting him at -1 to hammer with an unknown Delta stance is a bad idea). Just that I disagree entirely with your views about not voting in general as a good playstyle (and only voicing suspicions) and find that it gives bad-townie vibes.
(People who keep bringing up LagAlex hivemind... man, what do you want me to tell you >_>)
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AM exonerating you. Christ. I know my vocabulary.
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Not metagaming, post style voting. Reporter style is (I will argue) inherently scummy, and how I caught Bard out as scum those times.
Re Yoshi's debate:
Town's goal is to lynch scum.
Scum's goal is to not get lynched.
Town therefore finds scum by detecting the players who are not trying to lynch scum, and are trying hard not to get lynched.
If townies are trying hard not to get lynched, this gets thrown for a loop and everyone's scumhunting is impaired. Obviously don't do stupid stuff, but your #1 concern as a townie should always, always be lynching scum, not protecting yourself.
NINJA'D BY LAGGY AGAIN wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Laggy you aren't being my thoughtbuddy anymore :(
In fact you're kind of coasting and still going on with the not voting thing which is kind of minor at this stage of the game and already covered with Mage. Whatchu got here? You really think Yoshi's the best lynch right now?
NINJA'D BY LAGGY TWICE wheeeeee
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Nah, not necessarily.
But Soppy's case has been thoroughly covered by like... everyone else earlier in this day and I've already thrown in how I feel about it. It has also been said several times why people aren't piling on the extra vote on him, so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of this when you yourself aren't doing so.
I am, however, quite wary of everyone ELSE avoiding attention due to the Soppy gangbang, and Yoshi was the first person that caught my eye. I am still really waiting on Delta to post, feel that Tonfa's playing as solid as can be, and Bard has been pretty productive and concise about his posts (more so than I expected). And you are playing as you normally do, which as we've seen several times I largely agree with. So yes, Yoshi looks the most suspicious to me for reasons already stated, ignoring the obvious Soppy case.
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Apologies for lateness people.
Current view on people:
Alex:
SOMEWHERE OFF IN OUTER SPACE
Delta. Honestly, asking Delta his thoughts on things never helps, I can't read him. Instead I'd like to see everyone else say what they think about Delta. For my part to start off, I think he's been a little more lucid this game, but also more in the background than I would expect for two people voting him immediately, even as jokes. I could definitely see him as scum being told to sit quietly.
Or a normal human who requires Sleep once in a while. :/. Coincidentally, why are you saying that you could 'Definatly' see me as scum, and yet in the same paragraph you state that you cannot read me? Surely that means that you have a neutral view of me until you can read me? Because if I am not wrong, that's a self-contradiction.
Anyway. In all honesty, I cannot see Alex as scum right now. Appears to be contributing well, even if he seems to have a grudge against me and my 'new-ness' to the game.
Bardiche: To be honest, I cannot get a read. Seems to be focusing solely on Sopko, which is alarming. However, What? So uh, I need to look at people other than Sopko?
I'm slightly wary of Laggy/Alex. Not because of their content, because I find their participation to be solid and benevolent. But the fact they keep hiveminding/ninjaposting eachother? >_> It's just too coincidental and things that are coincidental deserve scrutiny. Otherwise neither strike me particularly as people I want to pursue as possible scum.
Appears indeicisive here, like he does not wish to make a strong arguement against anyone but Sopko. I can definatly agree with Sir Alex here:
Bardiche, who has extremely aggressively pushed Soppy both days and... not said too much about anyone else.
Sopko: Pushes Laggy around Day one, but not Alex? Completely ignores Alex, saying that it is 'because Laggy was first to respond'. Hmmph. Strong scummy feeling, so Im going with my gut here:
##VOTE: Hunter Sopko That's L-1.
Laggy: Has been interwined with Alex in thought patterns all game until just now, but even so, coincidence? Laggy appears to have denied any collaboration here:
(People who keep bringing up LagAlex hivemind... man, what do you want me to tell you >_>)
I don't know. I still think that one is buddying up to the other, and I am feeling that Laggy would be a stronger suspect for this, but just barely.
Tonfa- Makes a good point in counter-arguement of Sopko here:
I'll bite.
absent for long stretches of time
Oh. Yes, like that one I time I slept. Lovely use of plural here when plural cases do not exist. Unless 4 hours counts as a long absence somehow. Funny that you would bring it up though considering you were absent for over a 23 hour period during a 48 hour day though!
Yes Sopko, please, do explain.
As per your question: Whom do I think is scum now?
In all honesty, you.
Yoshiken: Looks better today than he did yesterday, contributing more, and I find myself oddly agreeing with much of what he has to say.
More at some point tonight.
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I take back my earlier comments re: Deltaflyer.
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So all the Soul Keys have gathered! A'ight, this is a Delta post I can actually get a read on. Yet another list format with extremely superficial things to say about people. It's an extremely safe way to play and honestly not looking very good. Day 1 posts were just incomprehensible with way too literal reads of posts on his part.
LagAlex(sorry, lumping you in as one because of being almost completely similar in my head for the purposes of this game.) I cannot make a judgment on, other than they are not a scumteam.
Not seeing the Yosh case at least yet, personally. He's looking a fair stretch better then Delta and Soppy at any rate.
Sticking to my guns, ayup.
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Oh, yes. Delta also nails the "vague promises of more analysis, LATER" card.
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Okay. Seriously. We need more consistency here. Reading Delta's post has just confirmed this for me, so this is primarily directed at him, but also somewhat at a few others - should be fairly obvious who's said what from a quick re-read.
I've seen people complaining about a one-track mind (like Bard's) and about list posts (like Delta's). So, uhh, which should it be? 'Cause those two are polar opposites, and everyone's gonna be doing one of them to -some extent- (most have, naturally, been going for the former.)
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I have no problem with either type as long as it doesn't only tread old ground.
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Everyone has their personal likes and dislikes. Some like lists, some don't. You have to learn to deal with this, Yoshiken.
I'm not a massive proponent of lists as all it does is usually provide various shades of "I don't distrust these people" making up most the members and "I distrust these people". It's just as well they tunnel-visioned, because in the end there's just about no one you can trust unless you have specific roles. We're not getting into that discussion though.
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List posts are not bad if they have good and solid content and pursue an obvious direction in which you state the case you're on. However when you make vague and generally weak-sounding posts that try to just look like you're covering all bases, the content is poor.
There's also a difference between one-track mind and sticking to a case you feel strongly about. Bard doesn't just rehash what he's been gunning on Soppy, so I don't find him particularly scummy for doing so. The fact that everyone is more or less agreeing that Soppy looks bad only supports this.
But y'know, Alex kinda brought a good point up in that I don't really want to dwell so much more on the discussion with Mafia tactics and post style. That was adequate for Day 1. Day 2, after a mislynch, we need to be focused on looking for scumtells, especially since a screwup will lead to LYLO tomorrow.
Delta! Posted. I... yeah. Not really offering any new insight, but he posted. Everyone is aiming at Soppy, and at this point I would be vaguely comfortable with a Soppy lynch but he really does need to respond to all of this. On account of this vagueness Delta would be next on my "would lynch" list. I think I'm going to chalk up to simple disagreement between me and Yoshi; he still has been more productive and more responsive than Delta has been by a good margin.
Alex/Bard are still neutrals to me.
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Well, uhh, this all got quiet all of a sudden. Are we all just waiting for Sopko to show up, or... have I missed something?
Random flick of a card and... Tonfa! What is your view on... Laggy and Alex outside of "keep agreeing"? (I picked a random person to ask something to, it turned out to be you. This seemed to be about the only thing I could think of that you hadn't really commented on already.)
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Waiting for Soppy to show up. He was in IRC a while ago, not sure what the dealio is.
Since you mention it though I don't think Laggy and I have agreed since the beginning of the day and I'm a little disturbed people keep saying we are. I think he's been kinda coasting and dismissing the Soppy issues with "it's all been discussed already" and "Soppy needs to show up" while poking at Yoshi and now Delta. Even in his last post there he goes "Yeah let's look for scumtells" and then... doesn't actually do so. Mmmmm.
But where is Soppy.
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I agree that Sopko needs to show again. This disappearing randomly act of his is seriously debilitating our ability to act, since we're stuck here waiting on him. Of course, this only strengthens my belief that he is scum and deserves to be axed.
An idle thought while re-reading posts: Delta, bolding and increasing the size of your misspelling of "definitely" isn't actually smart. >_> Spell definitely as definitely, not definatly.
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Alex, I think today's been about half and half? You keep doing the whole "Hey, look, ninja again with the same sort of post!", but then there has been that one disagreement starting... the bottom of Page 4. That said, this day's... really not consisted of all that much.
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H'okay. First off, since I'm -1. Vanilla town. I also was roleblocked last night apparantly.
I don't really know what to say. Maybe I'm just incredibly rusty on scumhunting or whathaveyou, but I'm not just gonna give up.
Tonfa's play is still irking me. He definitely gives a good defense and I appreciate responding to my question, even if it was mostly deflection. But he's mostly shut up after that again. He's made a few quips, but I can't help but feel that he's just being incredibly dodgy. Bard seems to get part of what I mean.
And before anyone says anything else about it, yes. I know I've been absent. But just because I've been absent doesn't mean I can't call out someone else's. If you want to say there are only certain, limited ways I can look for scum due to how the day's played out, then I'd call you abstructionist and scummy.
Alex still gets to me. when the Alex/Laggy hivemind forms, it's always been Alex following Laggy. When it finally broke, it was Alex posting on his own before Laggy. It feels like Alex as scum trying to link himself to a townie. And I think thats why my gut has been saying this the whole time.
Delta could go two ways. It could be a townie thats being opportunistic to vote someone else because there's heat on him as well. However, his response to my question was lackluster and he has constantly talked about who he DOESN'T think is scum. His going after me (the easy target) in which he parrots others arguments adds nothing, and the Yoshiken bit for my question is also a tepid and weak girly slap to try to avoid drawing attention.
Bard is a null to me still. I think he's just a townie convinced of my scumitude and I can't really fault him for it.
Laggy is also someone that could go vastly two ways to me. If his stuff with Alex is not an insanely good scum gambit where he and Alex are working together, which I still see as possible at this point, he's pretty golden. He is the loudest with trying to get people to not focus solely on one person for today and at least posits cases on others.
Yoshiken is... I guess I've completely not been paying attention to him. Probably more my fault than his, but people can be their own judges on whether he's successfully flying under peoples' radars or not.
Tonfa and Alex are my two main people that I think at this point, with Delta alternate and outside chance of Laggy. So I'll stick to my conviction.
##Vote: Tonfa
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Soppy, I can't help but wonder: why exactly does Tonfa feel the scummiest to you? He responded pretty much perfectly to your initial case on him, and he's laid a pretty damn thorough case on you yourself. I'm definitely not getting the feeling that he's "dodgy" about anything at all, if anything I think he's been the most concise townie this game with plenty of good points in general. He's also not afflicted with tunnel vision re: Bard. So... unless you're going on something here that's not just gut/feeling, I am just not seeing it.
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Alex still gets to me. when the Alex/Laggy hivemind forms, it's always been Alex following Laggy. When it finally broke, it was Alex posting on his own before Laggy. It feels like Alex as scum trying to link himself to a townie. And I think thats why my gut has been saying this the whole time.
I think it comes to no surprise to everyone that I've been suspicious of Alex? Yeah. Bu~ut, I took a look through the previous posts when I considered the Laggy/Alex "One must be scum" thing. I think all but the first post, Alex posted first. That was up until the end of Day 1, IIRC.
And the way you've phrased that really bothers me. "It was Alex posting on his own before Laggy." ...What else was it gonna be? You've basically said "The one time Alex posted his opinions first, Alex posted his opinions first!" Can you elaborate on what you mean here? 'Cause that last post really isn't doing anything to shift my suspicion elsewhere.
On that note... Alex has definitely had a much better day today, in my eyes. His Day 1 behaviour really had me eyeing him a little, but today he's been a lot more... Hmm. I want to say 'helpful', but there hasn't been much to help -with-. A lot more... insightful? I think that works.
This day's not really been helpful for much, to be honest. Delta's gone down in my estimation, and I'm not sure what I'm gonna be going with tomorrow if Sopko gets lynched and flips Town. It's between Alex and Delta for me -so far-.
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Yoshiken's post above me makes me headdesk. Yoshiken, why does Sopko's phrasing of things 'bother you'? Or rather, 'how' does it bother you? Does it make him more scummy to you, does it make it hard to understand for you? Please specify this, I am intrigued.
Deltaflyer, what are you trying to get at with your paragraph re: me? You're climbing my ladder of suspicion at a very rapid pace, and unless you're volunteering yourself to be the next lynch target, I suggest you start making sense.
All your bit about me does is parroting Alex, accusing me of looking only at Sopko.
This remains to be untrue. I've voiced my suspicions of Tonfa, I simply see no reason to deviate from my present course since I feel Sopko is scummiest among those alive today. His lynch, for good or for bad, will teach us more about the other people, and in turn speculating about the scant possibilities of all others being scum is not going to be enlightening. There has not been much material to work with today, or the day before. I grasp what reaches out to me most strongly.
Deltaflyer. Please provide your thoughts, rather than quoting others and banking off of what they have said. You are painting yourself a grim future like this.
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I'm... not sure what to say to Soppypost.
Thought experiment
IF Soppy is town THEN
- He's played rather poorly, was off on Mage, is off on me... not sure what to say about his thoughts on Tonfa. I still read a very forthright town tone in Tonfa's posts and think Soppy may be getting sucked into some OMGUS here. OR he could be right... but that would make Tonfa scum. Then we're looking at ScumTonfa interacting on day 1, and interacting with TownSoppy today.
I... don't think I can see ScumTonfa making that "all right, I'll bite" post and getting into the slapfight with TownSoppy. With Soppy already being pushed on by Bard, and me and others trusting Tonfa, it'd be too good of a situation for ScumTonfa. Why get into a fight like that rather than capitalize? So if Soppy is town then he's been wildly wrong on all cases.
IF Soppy is scum THEN
- I was possibly right about earlygame baiting, which Yoshi took. He tossed some jabs at me, moved to Mage at convenience, found himself under fire and heavier fire day 2 from Bard. Rather than confront Bard, puts suspicion on Tonfa, who would be either his scumbuddy or very townie, and moves from there, seeming more or less resigned to being lynched today in order to presumably give his buddy armor for endgame. This... could work with Tonfa or Bard as his buddy, yes. Could also work with Delta as his buddy. Yoshi... less likely but still possible as Yoshi's kind of coasting and interacting on and off with me. Laggy... ugh. Same thing as Yoshi in my eyes. Yeah, I can definitely see this going down.
Half his tone comes off very townie, the other half... not so much, particularly some anger at Tonfa. I'm just not seeing a REASON for that anger, though. Mrf.
Yeah, this is all coming back to bad vibes and... things just make more sense strategically, pieces fall into place if Soppy is scum. And I can't see a better candidate arising here. I'm gonna say I'm down with the Soppy lynch here. It'd be great if Delta could post more, but honestly I'm not waiting up for him to provide anything of real use. Tonfa's gone, Laggy and Yoshi I've no questions for. One thing for Bard, though, why are you saying things like "for good or bad" and talking about reaching out and putting suspicion on Tonfa... okay yeah reading that ninja really sets off alarm bells for Bard/Soppy. Mrf.
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Yoshiken's post above me makes me headdesk. Yoshiken, why does Sopko's phrasing of things 'bother you'? Or rather, 'how' does it bother you? Does it make him more scummy to you, does it make it hard to understand for you? Please specify this, I am intrigued.
Both of them, as highlighted in the post. Maybe that wasn't too clear.
The section I quoted makes little-to-no sense to me. He basically stated the obvious as a reason for Alex looking suspicious with the "it's always been Alex following Laggy. When it finally broke, it was Alex posting on his own before Laggy." I'm not sure what exactly this is supposed to tell us, past Alex/Laggy posted together a lot, and the first poster changed a bit.
The part that makes him seem more Mafia-like here is that Laggy only posted before Alex once on the first few pages, and Alex got the first post every time after that, IIRC. This kind of misguided analysis is a major scumtell for leading Town astray.
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I SPENT TWO FUCKING HOURS ON THIS FUCKING POST, NINJA'D FOUR TIMES, AND THE INTERNET HANDS ME A CUP OF FAIL ON A SILVER PLATTER.
Ill try to type it all up again now if people want, or in the morning as soon as I wake if not. Sorry guys.
I hate this computer.
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Can you at least give us the bullet points or something? Odds are hammer will fall before tomorrow morning.
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I already put suspicion on Tonfa earlier this Day, Alex, and have maintained my view of him as confusing me because of his initial desire for me to defend against jokevotes. An act like that was waved off by me at first because I believed it would be distracting, or otherwise a catalyst for scum to attack me on: I went on with it for the sake of snarking and any discussion would be good discussion, as silence profits only scum.
For good or for bad is what it is. I doubt he'll flip as town, but even if he does, we'll learn new things. I see no problem with this statement in any way whatsoever, unless perhaps being lightly in doubt of your choices is a scummy thing. If so, you are being awfully indecisive now, too, painting various scenarios. In fact, you do it more extensively than I did with my single 'for good or for bad'.
Why do you hold it against me when you do something largely the same yourself?
Delta, bravo, you said something moderately cool.
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Basically, as concisely as possible.
Okay:
1.Sopko began by being suspicious of both Laggy and Alex. Then focused exclusively on Laggy without being one Alex.
2.He slips off them onto the Mage Train, then only explains after being pressed for it.
3.He accuses Tonfa of long absences, and is then refuted. He is hypocritical here.
4.He simply states that he is 'irking' him. Sopko,
5.Does a list stating no real strong feelings, and the ones that are he puts down to 'gut feeling'
Sopko Questions:
On Tonfa, is it scum-irk or confused-irk?
On Alex/Lag, if one of them was hammered today, not you, what would be your view on the other? Gambit theory or Golden town? As they appear to be the extremes that you set out.
Why did you wait until pressured to state your reasons for Magevote?
Why did you attempt to accuse Tonfa of 'long absences'? Were you trying to draw attention away from yourself?
Why were you attempting to say that scummy townies is a good thing, when it obviously isnt. To me that seems like an excuse for your earlier scummy actions.
I had quotes to go with this, and answers to Bard/Yoshi posts. I might do them now or in morning. Just want to fire this post off and make sure of it.
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I wouldn't say this is a situation where we'll learn a lot if he flips Town, personally. Since the start of the day, pretty much everyone's been on him, and his contributions have been somewhat lacking, meaning we're not gonna get much of a read if he does flip Town. Which, as it happens, is the only reason I'm slightly reluctant to drop the hammer now - I'd much rather try to get some more discussion, but we're going nowhere with the current conversations. If I had a better read on a few other players -or- if it wasn't LYLO tomorrow if we lynch Town, I might be inclined to just ask for a roleclaim and then (probably) lynch.
Delta!Ninja: Pretty much clarification of the case, yeah. That second question there is interesting - I wouldn't mind seeing a few answers to that from other people as well.
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He already claimed Vanilla Town.
H'okay. First off, since I'm -1. Vanilla town. I also was roleblocked last night apparantly.
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Also, sorry for my outburst earlier. If a moderator or whatever would like to edit the swearing out or delete the post, that's cool.
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That said, this day's... really not consisted of all that much.
You know I was trying to avoid using quotes at all costs this game but this really sums up how I feel about matters at this very moment.
The Soppy case is just... too damn easy as a train. And that is what bothers me more than anything else. In fact, with the way Bard's been responding and basically setting up his arguments and defenses before the flip even comes makes him start looking extra suspicious to me. He hasn't really been on any other case, the little spat with Tonfa is just so trivial. And now he's saying that the flip will be educational either way while still being absolutely adamant that Soppy will be scum. Reaaaaaally? Well, I'd be extremely interested in hearing Bard's thoughts tomorrow.
Alex too, while not as one-minded as Bard, has been pushing Soppy pretty hard the whole game. I find myself in agreement with Yoshi for once in that there's not a whole lot of discussion otherwise and this has the huge potential to bite town in the ass. And now Alex's getting on my case saying that I'm coasting and basically not inputting myself, like anyone who isn't obviously agreeing with the train's out of touch and looks scummy. Not liking that. It isn't so much that the case on Soppy isn't valid as how it's been set up to be potentially a free ride for scum. And if the case turns out to be a bust, we're facing LYLO tomorrow.
One thing remains true, though; none of this is going to be resolved without a flip. Unless Soppy or someone else has something to say on the matter, I'll go ahead and announce intent to hammer within the hour.
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Why do you hold it against me when you do something largely the same yourself?
Question...
In fact, you do it more extensively than I did with my single 'for good or for bad'.
Answer.
I'm gettin paranoid and thinking a lot of things out, you were all gung ho at the beginning of the day but now you're all "Oh yeah uh Soppy's probably scum but maybe not so for good or bad let's see what happens, but if he's town don't worry, we'll get information!"
Yeah I painted it a little there but I find it odd that you're kinda pedaling back.
Delta's questions and Yoshi's response are... welll... it's like they're not really following the game. Delta's questions aren't really productive and have mostly been covered before and Yoshi... I'm not even sure how scummy that is here. This is driving me crazy here having a game where there isn't someone really raising my hackles. Except Soppy kind of is.
Man, I almost want to go to Yoshi for that. How do you miss Soppy roleclaiming AND declaration of intent to hammer AND people discussing imminent hammer?
Laggy ninjas me again. Hammer within the hour is... fine with me, I need to stop second guessing and go with something and Soppy's the best bet. Actually most of my thoughts at this point are "Who is Soppy's partner?" so...yeah.
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Laggy: I'd like to get some discussion out of people while we still can, even if that's just "Everyone who's alive talks for a bit longer, then we drop the hammer."
Because, as you've said, if we don't get anything here and Soppy flips Town, we'll be at something that'd closely represent a Day 1 LYLO - no clue as to who's what, with any mistakes seriously costing us.
Alex!Ninja: Huhwaitwhat? Where the hell did you read that in my post? I know people said they were going to hammer, and didn't even -mention- that in my post.
Second guessing isn't that big a problem when -there are still two Mafia-. You said yourself, you're wondering who his partner could be. I'd like to get some people talking while we've got people around to talk and see if we can actually find out.
Also, you're getting paranoid? Judging from that post, you're certain Sopko's Mafia and that would leave us with two days to catch the last Mafia. What's there to be paranoid -about- exactly?
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Yosh: Yeah, that was my intent, hence "within the hour" and not immediately. I think Soppy's still active right now, so I'm hoping at the very least to get another post from him.
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if it wasn't LYLO tomorrow if we lynch Town, I might be inclined to just ask for a roleclaim and then (probably) lynch.
Why would you post this when a roleclaim has already happened and a lynch is imminent? The day's already passed that point. It certainly makes it seem like you haven't even been reading.
I'm NOT certain of Soppy being scum and I'm paranoid it's Delta/Yoshi. Or something crazy like Tonfa/Laggy. (But if the latter is true we've probably lost already.) Seems like every mini that comes up I lose to some pair like that where one was ambiguous and I never suspected the other. At least El Cid isn't in this game.
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If my lynch helps town, then fine. As long as people don't just write off everything I've said. Alex, if you're town, continue playing as you have. If you're scum, the rest of town, please don't let him lead you around by your noses.
I'll admit that maybe my play hasn't been tops this game, but while metagaming is usually bad, Alex seeing me as scum with Bard, which he says is setting off the biggest alarm bells to him, would basically be me handing the game to town. It's way too convenient a scenario. I play a bad scum game, but give me a little credit.
Re: Delta- Don't talk hypocracy until you take a firm stance on anyone other than who is being trained at the moment. As per your questions, I thought my explanation for my switch to Mage was fine at the moment. When asked, I clarified it further. Nothing more to it than that. If Laggy was lynched and ended up scum, Alex would be my next target. If Alex was lynched and ended up scum, we would still be in the same boat as I described. Could go either way with Laggy. No, I honestly feel like Tonfa's been lurking, using being concise to hide real involvement. If he's scum, he's doing a very good job of lurking. Coming out when called, sitting back and being "concise" when not. I never said scummy townies are good. I said that I won't hesitate to bring forth an argument if I deem it prudent to do so and townies should never be afraid of this.
Before hammer, I would at least suggest people who've been on me the most (who haven't already done so) get their thoughts on who the most scummy person/people are other than me. That'd be Bard especially. Delta too.
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Yeah, the roleclaim (or, technically, lack thereof) was something I admittedly forgot about. Stupid mistake there. (Apparently I deleted the part where I blamed tiredness from my last post? Dammit. I -really- shouldn't play when tired, then. >_>)
As for saying I'd be happy to lynch, I'm just stating my intent. Sopko is far and away the most suspicious to me still, and I'd be happy to drop the hammer... if people spoke more.
Sopko Ninja! Finally, we have signs of life! Your lynch won't help town if you flip town. As for Alex, he's still high on my list of suspicion, and I'm gonna make sure to take a nice, long look over the rest of the topic in the morning to check a few things. His recent posts, at least, reek of WIFOM and wordplay, as opposed to finding actual scummy behaviour. Really doesn't ring well with me.
Bard.. Fairly sure he's gone already. Delta probably has too, I'm afraid. (That said, I'm guessing a quick read through Delta's list would help? Looks like it was Laggy/Bard there.)
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Re: Delta- Don't talk hypocracy until you take a firm stance on anyone other than who is being trained at the moment.
Before hammer, I would at least suggest people who've been on me the most (who haven't already done so) get their thoughts on who the most scummy person/people are other than me. That'd be Bard especially. Delta too.
Firstly, I was outlining my stances on other people in that post that I lost, and seeing as it is now 2AM, this will be my last post of the day, most likely.
I dont know about Firm Stances, since I really -do- need sleep, but I'll be thinking it over until I fall asleep.
Sopko's last post is quite intresting to be honest. Im having second thoughts. Is it a convincing last stand or an honest post? I just don't know. Taking my vote off Sopko seems wrong, since my gut says yes but my brain says no. I really just don't know anymore. Sorry if this is a bad last day post, but I'll be better tommorow, or whenever the night ends or whatever.
Yoshininja'd.
Ah feck it. Sleep.
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Firstly, I was outlining my stances on other people in that post that I lost, and seeing as it is now 2AM, this will be my last post of the day, most likely.
I dont know about Firm Stances, since I really -do- need sleep, but I'll be thinking it over until I fall asleep.
Sopko's last post is quite intresting to be honest. Im having second thoughts. Is it a convincing last stand or an honest post? I just don't know. Taking my vote off Sopko seems wrong, since my gut says yes but my brain says no. I really just don't know anymore. Sorry if this is a bad last day post, but I'll be better tommorow, or whenever the night ends or whatever.
Yoshininja'd.
Ah feck it. Sleep.
...
Dear god, screw convictions. Not only does it completely ignore what I asked of him, it says absolutely nothing. If he had just not posted, that'd be one thing, but this is just willful anti-town behavior. Just posting to go "Hey, I saw! I'm active but am too lazy to help town!" at this point is just... argh.
##Unvote: Tonfa
##Vote: Delta
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(http://grs.negative0.net/SA%20Smilies/emot-psyduck.gif)
I think it's painfully obvious nothing else productive will come out of this day.
##Unvote: Yoshiken, ##Vote: Soppy
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Sopko (4): Bardiche, Tonfa, Delta, Laggy
Bardiche (0): Alex
Yoshiken (0): Laggy
Tonfa: (0) Sopko
Delta (1): Sopko
Hammer!
Sopko was lynched! He was VANILLA TOWN!
It is night 3, actions!
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IT IS DAY THREE, POSSIBLY THE LAST DAY
TONFA, TOWN VOYEUR WATCHER, WAS CAUGHT PEEPING AND EXECUTED BY EVIL
It is LYNCH or be REDUCED TO YOUR COMPONENT CANDIES
1. Bardiche
4. Yoshiken
6. DELTAAAAAAAAAAA
7. Laggy
9. SirAlex
With 5 people alive, it takes three to go to the chocolate store.
You have 48 hours! Go! Fulfill your delicious destiny!
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Nuts
I am about to sleep and playing the heck out of the new Touhou game and really not in any coherent shape to analyze things right now, will have to wait till after sleep.
HOWEVER
Claim time
I'm vanilla townie. Sad day.
HOWEVER
We know from Soppy there is a roleblocker and even vanillas are told if they are blocked! I was not blocked. Was anyone else?
I wanna kneejerk Bard/Yoshi or Bard/Delta at this point but mrf. Basically not considering Laggy, he's the most townish to me and I have to start somewhere today. Mrf.
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Yeah, I'm not gonna be here for a good part of the day, I'm afraid. Got a friend's birthday later from about 7.30-3.30 (GMT, so starting in about 3 hours 30) and I'm gonna be sleeping when I get back from that... Also need to get ready, so... activity post here. And yeah, definitely claim time. Although this is somewhat confusing.
What -is- interesting is that our roleblocker seems to keep picking targets who don't have powers. Guess who got roleblocked yesterday~
I... yeah, like I said yesterday. Without extra discussion, I wasn't gonna have much of a clue today past "maybe Alex and/or Delta, but only maybe". Guess what? Not much more discussion after that yesterday.
Right. Seeing as I'm not gonna be around much for much of the first half of this day, my sole request is that we do -NOT- end this day early. I -will- be back, and I plan to make an extensive post looking into everyone in detail to see what the hell we can draw from this. There are 4 players other than me, and I know two are Mafia, it's just a 'simple' case of finding them. At this stage, though... Finger of Suspicion on Delta, primarily. The lost post isn't your fault. The fact that you seem to throw some light accusations around and then vote for whichever one everyone else is voting for -is-, however. We need an early post from Delta here to clarify -his- thoughts on the matter, not just reiterate everyone else's.
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Hmm. Apparently my Maths is quite awful. I somehow took 1400 as 4pm. Anyways, seeing as I've got a bit of spare time now, I'm gonna take a quick look through each potential scumteam. Expect a very long post from me soon~
(And, if you guys feel like adding some more stuff for me to comment on... y'know.. that'd be good. <3)
Also, I'd just like to say that I'm currently ruling out -nobody- completely. I'm strangely suspicious of a very well-played Bard/Laggy team here, and that's why I'm gonna go back and look at -each- possible team.
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Delta: Avoids commentary on SirLaggy hivemind for Day1. Day2... No read on Alex/Bard. Laggy is apparently more suspicious than Alex.
Laggy: Starts with vote on Delta because Delta. Day2: (scum first) Delta > Yoshi > Bard/Alex. Suspicion of Bard and (slightly) Alex builds at end Day2 due to SopkoTrain.
Alex: Starts with vote on Delta because Delta. Day1 case on him, he attributes to "I walked into Sopko's trap. Very suspicious of Bard from the start of Day2, comes off later in the day due to posting style. Can't read Delta for shit. End of Day2, apparently has next-to-no clue as to who's Mafia.
Bard: Suspicious of SirLaggy hivemind. Late Day2, suspicion of Delta grows -very- quickly.
There we go. That's my quick summary of everyone's interactions with each other over the last days.
Now here's something interesting. I know Alex said he trusts Laggy's Town, but Laggy seems to have changed his opinions quite quickly at several different points throughout this game. So, my question now is... Laggy, who do you actually see as Mafia now?
Bard, I'm also interested in hearing your views of Laggy/Alex. The hivemind seems to have broken down, and you said you were suspicious of it before, so.. what's your opinion on these two now?
And Delta... Okay, seriously? What the hell. We need opinions in general from you. Who do you see as the most Mafia-like and why? Preferably in some detail, and I'd prefer not to have a list post this time, methinks. (I don't mind the lists, but I'd definitely much prefer a specific argument at this stage.)
Triple-posting over the course of a few hours. Hopefully that'll make up for my absence during the active times. (Also, sorry about that guys, real-life and all that.)
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So!
Probably the first and only big post I will make this game. Apologies.
##Giant Shining FoS: Bardiche
For good or for bad is what it is. I doubt he'll flip as town, but even if he does, we'll learn new things.
As I have said (and Yoshi batted around earlier), I am most curious to hear Bard's thoughts on this right now. Because Bard currently leads the scumdar by leagues. The actions at the end of Day 2 were just beyond what.
Bard has pursued Soppy pretty much relentlessly since the start of Day 1. It's an all-out no-holds-barred aggro tactic, and if there's one thing you can't blame him for, it's being consistent in his reasoning. That is, until he starts backpedaling when I (and Yoshi) start mentioning that if the Soppy train goes bust on Day 2 we got a whole lot of nothin'. Alex has already somewhat called him out for doing this as well, but he never responded adequately. Things like
His lynch, for good or for bad, will teach us more about the other people, and in turn speculating about the scant possibilities of all others being scum is not going to be enlightening.
followed by
I doubt he'll flip as town, but even if he does, we'll learn new things. I see no problem with this statement in any way whatsoever, unless perhaps being lightly in doubt of your choices is a scummy thing.
I see problems. Just exactly what will we learn? Just exactly what HAVE we learned? At least Alex went into a fair degree of detail and speculation as to the possibilities we'd be facing tomorrow on Soppy's flip (albeit I was not exactly thrilled with the amount of detail on the scenario that actually happened.) Bard basically handwaves this, insinuates SOPPY'S FLIP WILL BE ENLIGHTENING and ... elaborates no further. Yeah, this argument could've worked for Day 1 when there was absolutely zilch else to go on.
And then Bard claims he's not having tunnel vision, having done a weak jab at Tonfa (who flipped town) and then Delta, backing up and trying to not look as bad if Soppy, in fact, doesn't end up being scum. It is convenient that Soppy's last line is a call-out to those biggest on his case to voice their suspicions on non-Soppy people, making me half-wish I had waited for Bard to get back on and reply. Ah well. Now he can do that.
Now, how does this look to scumBard? On Day 1, Bard was remarkable in that he actually stayed out of the obvious Mage train and kept on Soppy; on Day 2 he capitalized on this (on what I felt was a poor case and argument, as opposed to Tonfa's which actually convinced me to look harder at Soppy). In return he doesn't really have to voice his thoughts on anyone else and in fact complained about being requested to do so. In fact he really could've pulled the "aggro but misguided townie" card well (convinced Soppy even) as a defense if he hadn't pulled that stunt at the end of the day. And it gets us into LYLO.
As far as potential scumBard partners and everyone else goes...
Alex: His poke at Bard at Day 2 end (along with me) is what raises him the most in my eyes to not being scumBard's buddy. Unlike Bard, I find his arguments to be convincing (like Alex normally is) and he actually looks at other people while remaining focused on being productive. He did accuse me of coasting and my jab back at him was more in response to that than any real criticism, but he wasn't nearly as narrow-minded about Soppy as Bard was.
Yoshi: Agreed with me about how the Day 2 trainwreck was possibly running afoul, the first thing I think we've agreed on the entire game. I still think he needs to go after people harder, but he's been active enough that I'm willing to chalk this up in just playstyle difference. Find it hard to see him partnered with Bard, since their playstyles are so opposing.
Delta: The obvious scumbuddy partner, which leads me into a perpetual state of WIFOM. The guy's lay-back-and-fire-lists posts just rubs me absolutely the wrong way, and he takes easy obvious stances... they're bad by itself, but it provided Bard an excuse to raise his hackles at Delta (possibly in an attempt to build cred?) and a way out when Soppy inevitably flips town and gives him a Day 3 lynch possibility. Getting on Delta's case is valid, but that's awful convenient.
Yeah I can definitely see Bard/Delta. Can't really see Bard/Yoshi. Bard/Alex is somewhere in the middle but it would basically mean Alex told his scumbuddy to go hang and NOT stop him from catching himself from end of Day 2 slipup. Somehow I can't see Alex doing that.
Non-Bard possibilities are just an enigma to me. Delta/Yoshi, Delta/Alex, Yoshi/Alex... well Delta is a giant cluster of wtf so the first two are in that field of "yes this could happen but hell if I can pin it down" and, given the interaction between the two, not really buying into the third one. So, yes, this roughly correlates to a suspicion scale of Bard > Delta > Alex/Yoshi.
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Also in the midst of that I read backlog again and totally forgot to claim.
Unfortunately, I am an unexciting (non-French) Vanilla Townie.
-
See, this is usually the stage of Mafia where Delta's list posts come in really handy - he comments on everyone, not just the lynchtrain, making it quite easy to see where he's stood with everyone left. Except... this game, it's just been a lot of "I'll comment later" on all of those. I'm definitely seeing Bard/Delta as possible, although I'd like to hear their defences (re: roleclaims) and answers to the previous questions before I start pushing that through.
If previous games have taught me anything, it's that I should remain suspicious of everyone, though. I'm sort of considering an Alex/Bard team and... that push against Bard doesn't really tell me much, because by the end of the day, he was saying he was "paranoid it's Delta/Yoshi. Or something crazy like Tonfa/Laggy." As far as I could tell, his Day2 end came down to "Kill Sopko!" (although not quite as much as Bard's did.)
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And that's me gone for the next 18 hours, at least, I'm afraid. Hopefully I'll return to enough conversation to generate an actual idea. ;_; *hates that he's here while everyone except him & Laggy is gone, but will be gone while everyone else is here*
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Back for just a brief moment, then heading out for a while.
If Bard and Delta don't claim to be roleblocked I'm willing to accept that as proof of Yoshi's towniness, I really don't think scum would try to pull a gambit by not using it when no power roles had flipped before Tonfa.
So that narrows it to Bard/Delta for me - Laggy may be scum but I can't build a better case on him than one of them, and even if he is, one of those two is scum with him.
But Bard and Delta aren't here so uh yeah. Out till evening, laters.
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Votecount..
..nobody's voting!
34 hours remaining!
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Okay... Seriously? I expected more than -one- post while I was gone. We're getting nowhere at all at this rate, and really need Bard/Delta to post. A post a day tends to suffice on earlier days, but not really at this stage, I'm afraid.
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Votecount...
...you all suck!
26 hours remaining.
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My role is Vanilla Townie.
Current status on events:
Bardiche: He is pinging quite a few scumdars, based on a re-read of the thread. Page 4:
What? So uh, I need to look at people other than Sopko?Well, yeah. Obviously.
Making a list is worthless, but alright, let's see what I think of others.
I'm slightly wary of Laggy/Alex. Not because of their content, because I find their participation to be solid and benevolent. But the fact they keep hiveminding/ninjaposting eachother? >_> It's just too coincidental and things that are coincidental deserve scrutiny. Otherwise neither strike me particularly as people I want to pursue as possible scum.See third Bold.
Delta is like he always is. Nothing he says is new to me, and overall while he's trying to be of use he doesn't bring anything new to the table. This is nothing different from his usual conduit. I get why people want to lynch him, but I have never-ending faith in people not screwing up constantly.Trying to buddy up here?
Actually, the only other person I'm specifically wary of other than Sopko is Tonfa. I'm afraid I can't really explain my suspicions for Tonfa rationally, but he rubs me the wrong way in that it seems he's... not really presenting new cases? He jumps on Sopko when I did, and jumped on Magetastic when everyone else did. His only other vote was a prod vote on Sopko Day 1, then an ultimate switch for hammer on Mage?Ah, so this is everyone else, and you claim not to be tunnel visioned.
I'm not a massive proponent of lists as all it does is usually provide various shades of "I don't distrust these people" making up most the members and "I distrust these people". Here, you appear to simply be deflecting an arguement made by Yoshi. You state that you dislike lists as an excuse for tunnel-visioning. It's just as well they tunnel-visioned, because in the end there's just about no one you can trust unless you have specific roles. We're not getting into that discussion though.
Also, he attempts to counter my thoughts against him by explaining what I mean:
Deltaflyer, what are you trying to get at with your paragraph re: me? You're climbing my ladder of suspicion at a very rapid pace, and unless you're volunteering yourself to be the next lynch target, I suggest you start making sense.
All your bit about me does is parroting Alex, accusing me of looking only at Sopko.
This remains to be untrue. I've voiced my suspicions of Tonfa, I simply see no reason to deviate from my present course since I feel Sopko is scummiest among those alive today. His lynch, for good or for bad, will teach us more about the other people, and in turn speculating about the scant possibilities of all others being scum is not going to be enlightening. There has not been much material to work with today, or the day before. I grasp what reaches out to me most strongly.
Deltaflyer. Please provide your thoughts, rather than quoting others and banking off of what they have said. You are painting yourself a grim future like this.
I'll quote it again:
What? So uh, I need to look at people other than Sopko?Well, yeah. Obviously.
Making a list is worthless, but alright, let's see what I think of others.
I'm slightly wary of Laggy/Alex. Not because of their content, because I find their participation to be solid and benevolent. But the fact they keep hiveminding/ninjaposting eachother? >_> It's just too coincidental and things that are coincidental deserve scrutiny. Otherwise neither strike me particularly as people I want to pursue as possible scum.
Actually, the only other person I'm specifically wary of other than Sopko is Tonfa. I'm afraid I can't really explain my suspicions for Tonfa rationally, but he rubs me the wrong way in that it seems he's... not really presenting new cases? He jumps on Sopko when I did, and jumped on Magetastic when everyone else did. His only other vote was a prod vote on Sopko Day 1, then an ultimate switch for hammer on Mage?
You state that making a list is worthless, and then proceed to do it anyway. What? You say that you have voiced your suspicions of Tonfa. However, your suspicions are simply feelings. I'm afraid I can't really explain my suspicions for Tonfa rationally, but he rubs me the wrong way
What? You think that is a suspicion? Where was your evidence of a suspicion, hmm? You stated that he wasnt makng new cases. No, but he contributed lots, and he provided different views on said cases. I am really suspicious of you now though. However, I am nervous incase these signs are bad townie play. Of course, one misplaced vote and scum could both jump on the bandwagon and win. Holding my vote for now, but seconding Laggy in ##FoS:Bardiche
Ive done enough lists. Here's my suspicion.
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So, I was gone for a day yesterday. Sorry, I had not thought the new dawn would break as early as this.
Vanilla town. No surprises here. With the exception of Yoshiken, everyone has claimed Vanilla now. Granted, Yoshi implied things, but he never outright says he is a roleblocked Vanilla town.
--->
People racking up suspicion on me (or, more accurately, acting on their earlier suspicions) was rather expected for the day. If Sopko failed to be scum, I expected this, especially because people (read: Alex) were already trying to tie me to Sopko as being a member of scum, or otherwise as this. You've been stubbornly suspicious of me, and yet supported the lynch of Sopko I propagated.
Laggy, you're inconsistent.
Bard doesn't just rehash what he's been gunning on Soppy, so I don't find him particularly scummy for doing so. The fact that everyone is more or less agreeing that Soppy looks bad only supports this.
You've seem to have gone back on this. Whatever, I'll live with it.
I am curious how I went from 'neutral' to 'highest scum possible!!', though.
--->
Deltaflyer, your above post is worthless yet again. Can you stop jumping on bandwagons as you've done Day 1 and 2 both?
Stating I am 'trynig to buddy up' with you is laughable at best, because your play has been textbook 'unsupportive of town' play. You've done nothing to aid the town effort to hunt scum, jumping only on convenient cases others were on while propagating that everyone else is "not scummy".
If you're town, you're worthless. If you're scum, you've been banking on the fact that everyone auto-assumes you're worthless at scumhunting. Construing my sentiment that your play should improve over time and wanting to give you the chance to prove that as a 'buddy up' attempt is the final straw that makes me stop wanting to give you chances.
--->
As far as the rest; Yes, I've made a mistake on Sopko. This is apparent, but the majority agreed with me so I doubt you'll fault me for that mistake.
Regardless, it seems I've made too big a mistake to correct so easily. I have, however, no intention to hang today, as that would definitely cost town the win.
Yoshiken:
Bard, I'm also interested in hearing your views of Laggy/Alex. The hivemind seems to have broken down, and you said you were suspicious of it before, so.. what's your opinion on these two now?
I remain of the belief that the hivemind itself was just so damn coincidental it deserves scrutiny, but neither feel as particular scum to me. I'm more willing to buy that Laggy is scum than Alex.
--->
To summarise what we can glean from Sopko's lynch:
- There's definitely a roleblocker.
- Interaction with Sopko to see who is genuinely accusing him of being scum (HINT: ME), and who are jumping on a convenient bandwagon (HINT: DELTAFLYER)
Hell, I'd have hoped there to be more, but we can now look at interaction data more extensively than from Day 1 and find something there.
With Sopko not being scum, I must admit I am slightly off-balance now, but I am leaning in Deltaflyer's direction as a possible scum, with Laggy/Yoshiken tailing behind the ladder of suspicion and Alex being bottom.
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If I am jumping on a convienient bandwagon, then why haven't I voted, and why have I provided my thoughts and arguement against you like that? (same as I would have done with Sopko, had the post not been lost.
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Are you being serious with that question? Because the answer seems to be elementary: because that's the game. If you hadn't posted thoughts and arguments you would be too obviously jumping on a bandwagon. You've re-used arguments others have used, or used non-arguments to lynch someone. There are far better things to use to jump against me other than 'HEY HE SAYS HE WASN'T TUNNEL VISIONING BUT I THINK HE IS'.
If that is honestly the biggest scumtell you can come up with on Day 3, I'm sorely disappointed in you as town.
Tell me then, how are your 'cases' on Magetastic, Sopko and now me not convenient bandwagons?
Imagine me as not being an option, who of Alex, Yoshiken and Laggy would you think to be the scum, and who would you vote on? If ever there was a time to write lists, now is that time, because a misstep will cost town victory. Prove to me you are town and start being constructive to the scumhunt effort. Jumping on Laggy/Alex's suspicions does not constitute being constructive.
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Laggy, you're inconsistent.
Bard doesn't just rehash what he's been gunning on Soppy, so I don't find him particularly scummy for doing so. The fact that everyone is more or less agreeing that Soppy looks bad only supports this.
You've seem to have gone back on this. Whatever, I'll live with it.
I am curious how I went from 'neutral' to 'highest scum possible!!', though.
Um. Did you not read my post at all?
Your case on Soppy in general was never the issue, and it's why you stayed neutral throughout the game all this time. But those last Day 2 posts just completely don't sound like they're coming from a townie who, up to that point, was crusading the virtues of sticking to one case you strongly believed in. There are pros and cons to that approach and I'm not getting into a playstyle argument on Day 3 but what set off alarm bells was your inconsistency. Going from "I am confident Sopko is scum, and that is why I am focusing entirely on him!" to "Yeah look Soppy's flip is going to be educational either way for better or worse" looks waaaay too defensive for someone whose pressed case looked dead certain for the entire day, and out of character for you.
Why did you feel the need to backpedal there?
Your Day 3 post consists of varying "Look you can't get on my case because you agreed with me about Soppy" when really, that wasn't my objection at all. It was your inconsistency about the whole ordeal. Then you voice suspicion on Delta again (again, justified, but thoroughly convenient - a barrel of WIFOM he is), vaguely think I am scummier than Alex and list pretty much no reasons. Hmm.
Re: Delta's last line. Um... I really have no words there. Ayup.
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Why did you feel the need to backpedal there?
I can't say Sopko's last moments did not make me a little uncertain.
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Yeah, see, the issue I have is that the way those posts were made... they don't read like that at all. They look much more like "Here, I am actually going to accuse some people not named Soppy and then praise the benefits of lynching someone regardless of what alignment they flip for educational purposes". This looks incredibly convenient as a followup to Day 3 after Soppy, y'know, flips town. Especially since you hardly could have been the only one that read off Soppy's last posts looking more and more like a sincere townie's last words (hell, even Delta mentioned that! Yoshi and I mentioned it!)
Kinda makes me wonder why if you felt uncertain, you didn't just say you were feeling uncertain... and follow it up with a "but, even so, I think Soppy's lynch is the best thing to do today because..." The likelihood of it happening at that point of the day was all but certain. Tonfa was completely on the case, and Alex was being pretty strong about it too. There had been little discussion about anything else the entire day. Instead, you seemed to avoid, as much as possible, actually implying that you had any doubts about the Soppycase seemingly out of fear that there was the slightest possibility the train could be moved, and used superficial flips-are-good lines. That state of cautious in-between is what's pinging my scumdar here.
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Wishy-washiness in Mafiagames cost me my head before; I wanted to exercise caution with my doubts this time, and was still more convinced he was scum than I was worried he could be town.
Others were saying that day, "Hey, I think Bard/Sopko scumteam is likely!", "Oh, Bard is suspicious!" In a case where the train could still head my way, why should I not ensure it does not likely go that way? Especially given that I still mostly expected Sopko to flip scum, I felt it would make the battle easier on Day 3 than it would've been Day 2.
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Awake again.
So what we got.
- Yoshi: Still Yoshi, still newbie, but is sane given that, and claimed roleblocked. Gonna say town on him.
- Laggy: A little passive for my tastes, but the main reason I think that is because he didn't aggressively press Soppy. Which... likely would have been overkill given the situation. He HAS been asking people to contribute, and been generally level-headed.
- Bard and Delta. These two are definitely my main suspicions. And... Delta is actually making a coherent case on Bard (the obvious one, but still), while Bard is making a case on *no one* and only defending himself. I have to say that's not really what I expected to wake up to, I was hoping/expecting both of them to be really scummy so I could sigh in relief. It seems like everyone is on Bard here, so either he's scum and his buddy is bussing him, or the scumteam is 2/3 of Yoshi/Laggy/Delta. I guess I could see Laggy/Delta but... I could see a bus from anyone at this point too, even Delta/Bard.
Fact of the matter is, though, Bard shutting down and having no case while Delta of all people does? Makes this an easy call for me. I was inches away from voting Bard yesterday and am now really regretting not having gone with my gut then. See my previous thought experiment post.
Huge FoS Bard and declaration of willingness to vote him. I'll wait a few hours for more posts if anyone has more to add, though.
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Okay, I'm at a friend's house, so won't be able to get on often tonight, I'm afraid. I'll try to get on at least twice more tonight if I can, just so we can actually get some stuff done.
Firstly, Bard, I think I implied strongly enough that I'm Vanilla Townie and was roleblocked yesterday. If you need clarification: I am Vanilla Town, I was roleblocked last night.
Bard, you're definitely not in a good position here. You've suggested Delta as the prime suspect, with your only reasoning being that he's been hopping onto previous lynchtrains. Yet, as has been said several times, the majority of those left were in favour of both Mage & Sopko lynches, so I'm really not surprised to see this. It doesn't come across well that he's not trying to present any new cases, but at the same time, it's not as suspicious as you see to be making it seem. Is there some other reason you think Delta's our prime suspect?
I'm still reluctant to cast a vote now, solely because of the LYLO situation. Alex has definitely looked much better in my eyes these last couple of days, and is now the most likely Town to me, with Laggy as a second behind him. However, Laggy's concise nature is not helpful at this point - Laggy, I'd like to know your current views on the other players here, and also if you actually think Bard is particularly Mafia-like, or if he's just the most likely of the remaining players at this stage.
FoS remains on Bard, but I'm not voting right yet, not in a situation like this.
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Uh, didn't I in the only big post I made this game?
As far as potential scumBard partners and everyone else goes...
Alex: His poke at Bard at Day 2 end (along with me) is what raises him the most in my eyes to not being scumBard's buddy. Unlike Bard, I find his arguments to be convincing (like Alex normally is) and he actually looks at other people while remaining focused on being productive. He did accuse me of coasting and my jab back at him was more in response to that than any real criticism, but he wasn't nearly as narrow-minded about Soppy as Bard was.
Yoshi: Agreed with me about how the Day 2 trainwreck was possibly running afoul, the first thing I think we've agreed on the entire game. I still think he needs to go after people harder, but he's been active enough that I'm willing to chalk this up in just playstyle difference. Find it hard to see him partnered with Bard, since their playstyles are so opposing.
Delta: The obvious scumbuddy partner, which leads me into a perpetual state of WIFOM. The guy's lay-back-and-fire-lists posts just rubs me absolutely the wrong way, and he takes easy obvious stances... they're bad by itself, but it provided Bard an excuse to raise his hackles at Delta (possibly in an attempt to build cred?) and a way out when Soppy inevitably flips town and gives him a Day 3 lynch possibility. Getting on Delta's case is valid, but that's awful convenient.
\
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As far as my certainty as to Bard being scum - it's possible he really is just a superaggro townie that went completely off the wrong way, and because of his poor judgment is now shaping up to look really bad. I would have bought into this more if I still wasn't irked majorly by Day 2's events, and his responses have done little to ease me of my concerns in that regard.
I presume your inquiry about "is Bard being Mafia-like or do you think he is scum" is actually asking "do you think Bard is being a bad townie or scum", because the first question is slightly oxymoronic. The answer is that both are certainly possible, but you can't excuse bad townie-behavior forever, or else scum will just ride on it by acting detrimental to town and pulling that card. Otherwise uh we would be lynching Delta right now who has consistently looked scummy and given relatively poor contribution the entire game. But he doesn't have that one, singular issue that jumped out at me like Bard's behavior did.
At this point I feel more confident about Bard being scum than taking the crapshoot with Delta, in all essence, unless another really compelling case comes out that isn't just going over old territory.
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*wouldn't be lynching Delta. I can type today.
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What I asked was if he looks Mafia-like or if he's just the worst of the available cases. So, not so much "Is he scum or just bad townie?" but more "Is he scum or just the scummiest of a non-scumlike group?" I'm guessing it's the former, though, judging from your response.
Alright. If nothing else, I'm fairly sure we're agreed that Bard's gonna be our eventual target in all of this. Unless he does something to convince me he's Town (or someone convinces me not to), my next post (when I next come back to check) will almost certainly be a vote.
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I have... nothing more to say to that, no.
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Actually we're all just going around with the "I'm going to vote Bard but not yet" and nothing is changing so... I'll go ahead and do it.
##Vote: Bardiche
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Eh, guess that's it then. With entiriety of the remainer fine with voting me, I see little possibility of making a desperation call to turn the tides.
I'm going to weep if Delta turns out to be scum, though. >_>
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Well.
If you know you are town and basically are saying "okay lynch me already" in LYLO then um. Yeah.
##Vote: Bardiche
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Alright, yeah, my net was down for a while there. I'm gonna slap myself if it turns out Alex was Mafia the entire time, but...
##Vote: Bardiche
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SCUM WINS
IT WAS LAGGYALEX
BAD LUCK
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Laggy- Roleblocker
Alex - Vanilla Scum
Tonfa - Town Watcher
Everyone else - Vanilla town
Tonfa watched Laggy and then Bardiche and then died.
Laggy blocked Sopko and then Yoshi.
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[09:13] <RichardHawk> hey
[09:13] <RichardHawk> hey
[09:13] <RichardHawk> hey
[09:13] <RichardHawk> SCREW YOU
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Well done. The hivemind thing made me think, "That could be an elaborate scumploy!" then I thought it was too obvious. When Alex tossed that first vote down I expected he was scum, but uhhh, yeah, I gave up there since I had to fight DELTAFLYER LOGIC.
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Good game, fun times. We did buddy gambit, it worked pretty well, mostly because this game had a lot of new players (and we were able to buy a lot of town cred on the cheap by helping them out with basic gameplay.)
I think we could have pulled it out even without that, though - the real turning point of the game was when we woke up on day 2 to see Bard and Tonfa attacking Soppy and Soppy getting distracted from me to fire back at Tonfa. Rest of the game was coasting that three way town feud to victory.
Knowing there was a watcher now has me terrified in retrospect - Excal is scary enough to almost always be the first nightkill in DL games, and had Tonfa watched him.... well.
For the newer players, you might be thinking "Awww man I need to be more suspicious of buddy gambits!" but in fact the real way to find us out would be by noticing that neither I nor Laggy really took any hard stances all game. Especially day 2.
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Too bad I don't know DL mafia metagame, thus didn't watch Excal.
I was keeping an eye on Laggy/Alex interactions but thought to save criminal analysis of it for day 3. >_> Yeah. Went for the two scummiest people on days 1 and 2, plain and simple - Mislynches aren't fatal. Town not posting or making cases on the final day is.
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The real problem is that when Excal dies night 1, the proper solution in the DL metagame is to lynch Ciato. But she wasn't playing! Clearly, the scum thought of everything.
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Bard, how do you think I feel? I fight it all the time.
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Good thing you killed me too, Alex. Your argument about how Soppy was bad town involved you a) giving an argument that was so bad, it could be used very effectively against you, and b) also gave implications that you knew who was scum or not. You'd probably be able to fight b) off, but a) is the kind of thing you rarely do when town.
The other thing that was really fun to watch on Day 2 was Soppy and Yoshi argue about who posted first, the Cyril or the Alex. Hint? Neither. They were pretty interchangable, including times when they practically posted on top of each other. The really fun thing is that while you had Cyril posts without Alex on Day 1, you never had an Alex post more than 6 minutes away from a Cyril post saying the exact same thing on Day 1. Had either of you fact checked your contentions, then that might of stuck out.
Then again, the hell do I know. While both of those stuck out at me before I was told the set up (I was chatting with someone before that time, and very vaguely referenced these things to 'em), I still chose the lazy pick of Bard/Delta scumteam. So, yeah. Props to the scum, you guys completely earned this win, even if you were wankers that killed me night 1.
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Also, I need to improve. Lots.
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Note to future self: Stop sucking, don't seem scummy, trust gut feelings more..
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Heh. I was still suspicious of Alex right to the end, as my last post may've implied, but he also struck me as the most town-like by the end. I really, REALLY need to follow my instincts more - they've been closer in every game I've played to my logical solution.
Alex: Saying about the lack of conviction in your cases is a good point, but you have to remember that Laggy started out incredibly strongly, and you finished off. Admittedly, there was no time both of you were particularly devoted to a case, but there was hardly a time where -neither- of you were.
Bard... If your last post had had some conviction to it, I might have changed vote. That said, I doubt it would have switched to the actual Mafia, as you'd've most likely gone to Delta.
Tonfa: DON'T SAVE ANALYSIS. If you planned an analysis, you should have probably posted it at the time, while maintaining that the case on Sopko was stronger. Otherwise, I'd say your play was practically flawless for Day2 - best overall town player, in my opinion.
And... the gambit was probably the winning move for Mafia, if you ask me. While I was practically certain that either one of you two was Mafia, I was also relatively certain that the other was Town. Dammit.
Good game, all. You guys deserved that win. ;)
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Excal's right on about my day 2 case. It was terrible, very scummy and only worked because everyone was distracted.
Note on the buddy gambit, though. Laggy and I saying the same things as each other was intentional, but always posting at the same time was not. That had nothing to do with the game itself at all, it happened because we were talking (not about mafia) and gaming with each other most of those days, and we'd go check out this game when we took breaks. So the timings would've been the same even had we not been scumbuddies.