The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Jo'ou Ranbu on April 25, 2009, 05:23:34 AM
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Godlike
Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK)
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3)
Heavy
Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4)
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7)
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT)
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK)
Middle
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea)
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT)
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7)
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4)
Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5)
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4)
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Godlike
Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK)
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)- WA 3 Silence gets everything, and Edgar can't block Silence and Confuse.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3)
Heavy
Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4)- Should have the HP to take a spell, and 2HKOs.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7)
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT)
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK)- Alhazad makes my head hurt
Middle
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea)- Hmm, don't know. Leaning Bowman.
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT)- I guess
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7)- Gut reaction of some ability to chip, better speed, and some pdef.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4)
Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1)- While this is initially closer than my Lol VP Mage gut reaction would indicate, Bernadette still takes this.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5)- Logg has a solid enough 3HKO, and is certainly going before 3.4 Cyan turns.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4)
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Matches of note.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3) -
Okay, Lady probably wins this, but I remember the issue of how good Jess's Magic Burst was coming up in chat, and this is actually pretty close.
According to the stat topic.... Jess has 273 base MP. But she equips a Staff when going for MB, so make that 373. That's 746 damage. The damage average using Gigaslash (Guv doesn't have enough skill points to get to Gigagash at lvl. 40, the stat topic's level, though this is fair enough to dispute; Dragon Soul I find extremely illegal myself, as you don't even need to get it when doing the aftergame) is 176. That's 4.24 times average damage, or (using 40% = average damage) 1.7 PCHP in damage.
Lady's Malice Umbral has 7200 HP. The stat topic has 250 the one-turn average, and 289 as the three-turn average... but damage is somewhat higher in-game due to having access to Crest Magic, especially Arc Surge (1 turn for 30-36% boost in damage over 5 turns? Yes. And as noted before, Lady probably shouldn't get double-credit for Lost Progress). So... I will arbitrarily say that 360 is closer to the in-game per-person damage average (since bosses should be held against in-game PCs, not DL-legal ones.). 360*4=1440, and 7200/1440 = 5 turns of survival. Taken literally, that's 2 PCHP, plus a final tap to Lady herself.
So... it comes down to how harsh you are on boss HP, I suppose. Certainly people have punished boss HP more than a naive approach like the above gives. But Jessica does need to kill instantly - I suppose she can Kafrizzle first, then Magic Burst for around 2.2 PCHP total (Twin Dragon Lash is a bad idea, she'd lose the MP boost from the staff), but as noted, even if Jessica somehow survived Lady's first turn, she'd die from Lady's counter.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7)
Er... I know that some people toss movement out entirely in the DL, but if Arnaud hypothetically fought Raquel, I think it'd be pretty clear that unless Arnaud also Shut Out Raquel, Raquel could just waltz out of a Slow Down'd hex with Move+Attack. I certainly grant everyone in the DL a WA4 "take your entire turn" move command, at least, which generally isn't helpful unless you're considerably faster than Arnaud - otherwise he just recasts it, and eventually he doubles and Shuts Out as well.
Anyway. Guy is from a system where everyone inherently has Move + Attack, so, uh, yeah, I can't really see just opening with Slow Down as being particularly effective here. On the bright side for Arnaud, Shut Out itself is an instant-win when fought on a Fire Emblem battlefield - tie Guy down in a square, bombard him from afar. When fought on a WA4 battlefield... it depends on if you always let the opponent start in the center hex (which is fair enough, a good few bosses start there). If Guy doesn't start in the center, Shut Out still works. If he does... I think Arnaud still wins. Arnaud uses Slow Down on the center hex. If Guy hangs out there, then I think Arnaud can beat him thanks to repeated doubled Hi-Blasts. If Guy moves away, then Shut Out -> run run away -> uncounterable Hi-Blasts.
So yes. Shut Out hype, since both are from systems with movement and Guy is in fact noticeably hurt by the fact he can't go range 2 unlike say Lyn.
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
The polar reverse of Jessica / Lady. I doubt that even a Mystic Cross PWS can kill Bern, so Lorenta's definitely going with the turtling strategy. Okay, Lorenta just hangs out at first doing nothing to save CT. Eventually Bern will force her to use Heal, due to the risk of a Breath of Ice KO or to Silent Lake->Knives. After that, assuming Lorenta has no luck getting purple gems from her bird, she has 4 turns of recharge before she can Heal again. Right before she can Heal, Bern can Silent Lake, then switch to knives. As a note, if I understand S5 mechanics right, Bernadettes deserves no respect for being able to chain multiple Silent Lakes - she's below average speed, so Lorenta will have a chance to Heal before Bern can recast Silent Lake. This is why S3 Chris is awesome, her Silent Lake beats out nearly everyone and thus can be chained really well.
Bern's Breath of Ice does an amazing .19 PCHP damage. And she's got to Silent Lake a turn early, as noted before. So...
Turn Lorenta decides to Heal: (Heal, BoI)
T2: WR, BoI
T3: WR, BoI
T4: WR, Silent Lake
...followed by 4 turns of knives. Of which her non-critical hit does .14 PCHP damage. .58 + .56 = a mere 1.14 PCHP of damage after 8 turns.
Lorenta has only .82 PCHP, however, so it looks like Bern pulls this one out. And I suppose that Heal is only 80%, meaning that even if she hadn't, Bernadette would have enough Breath of Ice charges for another go round to finish things. Lorenta's "wait around and outheal" strategy came dangerously close to working here, though, which is scary.
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Lorenta halves Breath of Ice (And blocks Silence 4 times to me. And I allow mages the Heavy Magic skill that gives them a chance of stunning! Doesn't matter!), so Bernadette is using her physical.
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Mmm. Nothing like obscure elemental blocking. If the Ice halving is allowwed... and also don't let Silent Lake work due to the Silence blocking... then this fight takes foreeeeeeeeeeever due to Lorenta not really being able to spend her AP on anything but Heal and Wait Reaction's mighty damage, plus Bern having healing. Without criticals, Bern can crank out 4*.14 = .64 PCHP damage, which isn't keeping up with Lorenta's Heals... but I suppose that eventually she'll get a two-crit chain in her 4 attacks, and that'll do it.
(EDIT: I can't multiply, good catch Yoshiken. .14*4 = .56, though .57 is probably closer since .14 is rounding down a bit. 2 crits will still increase .57->.83 damage, which is exactly a kill on the .82 HP Lorenta, though.)
For fun, ground out the math on this. With a 10% chance of a critical happening, that'll be
(1/10)^2*(9/10)^2 = 81/10000
(4 choose 2) = 6 since when the 2 criticals occur are irrelevant
.0081 * 6 =
4.862%
chance of the double-critical in one of these attack chains. Since each chain is 5 turns, that means that it's not until turn 110 or so that Bernadette wins on average. Bern might have had to spend a turn or two full-healing off the Bird due to the threat of Lorenta switching to Mystic Cross, so call it turn 112.
...epic. So yeah, looks like Bern still grinds this one out even without Silent Lake or Breath of Ice on the terrible might of her knives backed by healing.
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64% damage is probably keeping up with Lorenta's Heal since I'm assuming VP mages have below average defense! Hey, I'm surprised that a VP Mage even can cobble together such a good argument against a decent Light (Of course, the match also serves as a good enough reminder why Bernadette can fit in the division despite all she has going for her!).
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Godlike
Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3): Emily should 3HKO, I think. First attack knocks him into ToT. Em might 3-2, but the way I take ToT, it happens instantly, and Emily isn't instant doubling after it, so Indy gets an EQ off.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK): Quite a bit more damage.
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6): Faster. Eerie little mirror match otherwise.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3): Yeaaah, not quite as much respect for Magic Burst as Snowfire.
Heavy
Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4): Geddoe's parrying makes things interesting. Did Alena end up with accuracy? I forget.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7): I really should remember if Arnaud's status spells hit MEvade or not. Assuming they do, Arnaud misses, Guy misses, Arnaud uses Illusion, rapes. Gets worse if things are turn 1.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT): Quina vs. mage slayer. Worker 8 for the semis, at the very least.
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK): I dunno.
Middle
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea): 2HKOs faster.
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT): I suppose.
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7): Right, 2HKOs and isn't 2HKOed.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4): Katt gets in a decent low 2HKO, but after one Warla/Telele her damage is hosed. After the second, yeah.
Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1): Cute match.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5): They're similar in speed, so I think he has this.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): How not close. Oh well~
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4): Yep.
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Godlike
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3)- No
Middle
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT) - *thinking*
Light
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5) - Arr?
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Will I get shot for moar SO3 hype? :P
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Probably.
>_>
<_<
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Probably not when he's facing Rufus though!
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It won't really be SO3 hype, just Rufus anti-hype... >.>;;
On Malik vs. Edgar... I'm assuming Edgar gets through Malik's perfect evade with his perfect accuracy tools like Drill and Chain Saw?
In that case, Edgar just Chain Saws him for a 2HKO. Malik can't out-damage that in time. Edgar can block Confusion.
As for Malik's Misery status... Misery hits WA3 Force skills, but I don't think I'd consider FF6 Tools the same as Force skills. Force skills require FP to use, where as Tools are more like physical weaponry to me.
Interesting match, though.
The Bern/Lorenta match explanation was a cool read, too. Thanks, SnowFire and Dhyer. Really quite shocking to see a VP Mage match able to create something thought-provoking... >.>;;
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Godlike
Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3)- Em's damage type doesn't do well against time of truth.
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3)
Heavy
Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4)- Not remotely close. Geddoe 2HKOs easily and Alena can't do anything to stop him. HoR+soaring bolt kill.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7)[/b]- Mmm, even if I see Illusion as blockable, no.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT)- Get out of heavy Quina.
Middle
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea)- Seriously doubt Midboss can 2HKO Bowman through the Moon Fist's 25% HP boost.
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT)
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7)- Fighter versus Domingo. Extremely straight forward. Domingo's got defense and HP in both forms, his damage is never worse than a solid 3HKO.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4)
Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5)- Kneejerk.
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4)
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Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK): Faster and has a stronger version of Slow. Alhazad's damage isn't good enough to kill Pamela for using the slow. After that it's a straightforward drain win.
That's assuming WA1o, which I vote on. For the ACF form I'd first need to know if they're all stat down bait like all the WA1o bosses are.
I don't feel the need to comment on the rest of these.
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Quick point, on Snowfire's calculations... You've got 4*14 as 64, when it's 56.
Haven't played either game, so not certain, but I doubt that affects things, going by the calculations. Thought it best to point that out just in case. ;o
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Godlike
Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3) - Indalecio. Get the hell out of Godlike, Emily.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK) - Gilgamesh. MF6 form CRUSHES with Auto-reflect. Too bad she's all magic.
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) - Malik. Get the hell out of Godlike, Edgar.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3) - Lady. Get down to Heavy, Jess.
Heavy
Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4) - Alena. Pretty sure agility had something to do with accuracy in all DQ games.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7) - Arnaud. Shut Out, or just Illusion. Anything works. Guy won't kill him before he rapes him.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT) - Quina. Was Frog Drop actually magical, or just ITD based on the number of frogs collected? Either way, Mighty Guard and healing work. Once weakened, it can just eat Worker.
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK) - Alhazad. ;_; Poor Pamela being all magical.
Middle
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea) - Bowman. Healing!
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT) - Seifer. Boss form. Get up to Heavy.
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7) - Cid. Think the limit gets off and kills.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4) - Kyra. Katt sucks.
Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - Lorenta. Infinite healing fun.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5) - Cyan. Yay no charge time conservation of the environment.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Rufus. Boss vs. non-boss. Roger sucks!
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4) - Porom, I guess. Though, if she can beat a God, she needs to be in Godlike.
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Cid's only scary limits are his L3/4ers. Domingo can blast past though regardless of scaling.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT) - Quina. Was Frog Drop actually magical, or just ITD based on the number of frogs collected? Either way, Mighty Guard and healing work. Once weakened, it can just eat Worker.
Mighty Guard lasts less than a round and his only healing is White Wind.
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Eh, limit scaling, I suppose. Should let Cid just get it off.
Mighty Guard only 1 action? How odd. Either way, White Wind still has healing. And was Frog Drop magical or physical or nothing ITD? Not like it makes a huge difference, I guess...Worker 8's defense reduction only helps a bit with the 0 defense thing. Eh, oh well. Eat hype?
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Depends on how you're limit scaling. SF1o Domingo's got a good 2HKO, remake one just barely misses a 2HKO. Random growth plus nerfed bolt/fire magic helps there. Cid's L3s take a hell of a lot to trigger as well. 150% damage taken for them, IIRC.
Compress is a functional heal lock there, with the ID attached. Frog Drop is some kind of ITD I think. It's not good damage either way with the way FF9 works.
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Bleh, right, Frog Drop maxed at 5000, not 10000. I think? Can't tell from Dhyer's notes, it's not clearly delineated.
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Frog Drop can max, just not in the DL without some serious work. Other things (Thievery, Dragon's Crest) would also be maxed if Frog Drop was, so it'd not be much of a net gain for Quina.
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Hrm... I really don't see Mighty Guard only being one round. I mean, it's basically just Shell and Protect, and those last for longer than one round, so Mighty Guard does too. Not sure on specifics, but I know Mighty Guard lasted at least 2-3 turns per character.
Also, I'm looking at one evil strategy for Quina that I -think- is physical-based, although would need confirmation of that. Limit Glove abuse? If Quina's faster than W8, he can spam Auto-Life until he revives on 1, then Limit Glove for ridiculous damage.
Finally, Vanish-abuse?
Not sure how much of that works against W8, but I'm just presenting a few things for Quina that people generally seem to ignore~
*goes to find out who's faster between W8 and Quina*
Edit: Okay, Quina is at 84% of average speed. Worker 8's looking at about 82.8% of average. If Limit Glove's physical, Quina's able to get one shot of it in, and I'm thinking that could save it for him.
(Random point, the reason I always say "him" for Quina is because Quan says in-game: "S/he is still young, so please look after him." (Or something along those lines, anyways.))
Edit again: Turns out I was overselling W8's speed - he's at 82.8% if you exclude equips, and only about 70% including them. So yeah, Quina gets a turn after Auto-Life.
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SF1o Domingo does 94.6% damage with Freeze 4 according to the enemy def=30 average, and he has lower levels of Freeze. Unless you're giving Cid an L3 limit at 5% damage taken or so I don't see how he's winning here against that form of Domingo.
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Oh, I assume all that stuff gets maxed always. I was assuming it was average damage or so at baseline due to that, but seeing it only noted at 4950 (when Dhyer hadn't noted Dragon Crest or Thievery, which I know max) made me question whether it did or not.
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I see every single Blue spell tinking off Quina myself. If you see Frog Drop working that's another matter. It is certainly easier to max than Thievery, for what it's worth. Probably not Dragon Crest, though.
Mighty Guard lasts a couple rounds, but it doesn't matter since Worker's damage goes through it. Vanish is a better argument, but I think I see Worker's damage going through that, too.
Seriously doubt Midboss can 2HKO Bowman through the Moon Fist's 25% HP boost.
For what it's worth, he does according to the stat topic numbers on Midboss. You're welcome to take him against higher levels, but just sayin'.
EDIT: Do remember that Bowman's HP boost isn't 25% due to hitting the HP cap. It ends up as 116%, assuming you don't see Ashton using Melufa. (If you do, the HP average is higher, but damage average is lower and Ashton probably wants Doubledemon more often.)
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Mmm, maybe. Midboss didn't have a strong 2HKO at all based on my memory, and he'd need to go first.
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Incidentally, if someone ignores damage caps unless they are specifically set in a game (i.e., the person is me), how much does Limit Glove do at 1 HP? Is it always set at 9999? I barely remember FF9.
Same goes for Bowman with the HP going over the cap thing - which helps.
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I don't think SO2 PC's could go over 9999 HP. Enemy damage could go over it though. SO2's HP cap was a little odd.
Edit: Elfboy, hop on AIM?
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I don't know if Limit Glove always did 9999, but I know it can by the time you're at Gizamaluke's Grotto, so I'd guess it would always be 9999 by end-game.
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Always 9999 at 1 HP. Useful on the LLG. Not sure why it's coming up here, W8 doesn't have HP-1 or anything.
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The reason I let people do that is because the thing that ties damages and HP and the like to those caps are levels, which can be so variable anyway, that it feels odd to cancel someone's potential advantage because a stat topic takes levels high enough it lessens that advantage. This doesn't count for, say, FFX, where you need special skills to do it, so it's addressed in-game!
I really should get back to work, but since I'll be here for about 11 more hours...;_;
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Always 9999 at 1 HP. Useful on the LLG. Not sure why it's coming up here, W8 doesn't have HP-1 or anything.
No, but Auto-Life has a 1/9 chance of putting Quina back on 1 HP and I think he'll have enough shots to be able to use Limit Glove, seeing as he's faster. The only question is how much it deals to W8 with his defences, if anything at all.
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Ooh right, Auto-Life works when you're faster, I'm too used to that not being the case.
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Godlike
Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3): Yeah, think Indy just outmatches Emily here.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK): Gilgamesh is all about tricks, Isolde is all about slugging. Guess what's more useful for Boss vs. Boss <_<
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6): Unsure.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3): Don't see Jessica getting the damage she needs.
Heavy
Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4): Parry and good durability gets him the turns he needs to finish Alena off.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7): Kneejerk.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT): Blue Magic < Innocent.
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK): Unsure.
Middle
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea): Think he takes this in a slugfest.
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT): Ahaha to Slash avoiding a limit.
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7): Wanna say Cid wins this slugfest.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4): Kyra is anti physical, so yeah.
Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1): Pretty sure she's good enough to beat a VP Mage.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5): Don't think I see Logg killing in time.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): Isn't Rufus.
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4): Porom casts Mini, laughs from there.
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Godlike
Indalecio (SO2) vs. Emily (S3) - Yeah, Emily would need to 2HKO. I don't mock Indy -that- much.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK) - Booms.
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) - Yeah, faster.
Jessica Albert (DQ8) vs. Lady (SH3) - Magic Burst isn't even that strong a OHKO. If it went past the 1.5x overkill mark, maybe I'd consider this fight. *Shrug.*
Heavy
Geddoe (S3) vs. Alena (DQ4) - Hmmmm.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7) - Arnaud's evade is just too sick. At worst, he gets two turns to apply Illusion and rape ensues.
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT) - Piñatas.
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK) - Honestly, in practice this ends out very similar to Alhazad vs. Vivi. Slow status =/= speed stat busting to me, and I don't allow Aroma Materials, so Pamela's own status is a no go while Alhazad's in full busting gear here. Not to mention Alhazad 2HKOs her as is (I believe his damage at least scrapes a 2HKO to average mdur, and Pamela gets almost 2HKOed by -average-), and may actually be faster in his first turn, which makes the fight sort of a no-brainer. Slow Down => parasitic healing lock (which, by the way, is hurt by his MDef. Pamela's healing may not be affected by magic resistance, but it does get affected by magic defense) => double => the end. I kneejerk No Bullying! strategies as too risky here, since Pamela just won't get a turn at full HP to manipulate her life level.
Middle
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT) - Failure.
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7) - Chip-2HKOs.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4) - Walls.
Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - lol vp mage.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5) - ... going for the one that isn't a completely awful Light.
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Rufus.
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4) - Badrach.
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For fun, ground out the math on this. With a 10% chance of a critical happening, that'll be
(1/10)^2*(9/10)^2 = 81/10000
(4 choose 2) = 6 since when the 2 criticals occur are irrelevant
.0081 * 6 =
4.862%
chance of the double-critical in one of these attack chains. Since each chain is 5 turns, that means that it's not until turn 110 or so that Bernadette wins on average. Bern might have had to spend a turn or two full-healing off the Bird due to the threat of Lorenta switching to Mystic Cross, so call it turn 112.
Minor nitpick, but the math here is slightly off. You forgot to account for times she gets 3 or 4 criticals in there, which are also wins. It won't add much, but still.
1-(9/10)^4-4*(9/10)^3*(1/10) = 5.23% if I did that right.
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7): I really should remember if Arnaud's status spells hit MEvade or not. Assuming they do, Arnaud misses, Guy misses, Arnaud uses Illusion, rapes. Gets worse if things are turn 1.
If you mean Magic Blocker, they don't.
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Mighty Guard lasts 2 turns. The reason its so bad is that Quina should essentially take the same damage in those two that she would over one normal one, gets the same number of attack turns...and wastes a whopping 25% of her MP to do it. Only helps against Worker's physical.
Vanish has a shorter duration, is far less evil on her MP, but needs you to see Work as non-typed.
OK, if you give Limit Glove more damage credit because you can end the game at a lower level...you conversely have to take everything else as worse. Quina's damage, Quina's status rates, Quina's status duration...Things she can actually win with.
Granted, this all only really matters if you see Blue Magic working on Worker.
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I didn't say I gave limit glove credit for being lower endgame level. That's only speaking into limits in general (so, ex., Terra's Ultima, Bowman's HP) - I don't know if it breaks damage limits, so if it's set just to 9999 at 1 HP...then it's no better. I'm not talking about giving a specific skill more credit - I'm speaking in generalities. Not sure how that got confused, but maybe I should learn to speak human at some point.
And just because the skillset says blue MAGIC doesn't mean it has no physicals skills. FF5 blue magic had Goblin Punch (well, I think that was physical...no matter, it's more like enemy skills than simply enemy magic...oh, yeah, what about Blue13? Similar example of blue magic, but with physical skills).
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Yeah, saying nothing from the skillset hits only because the title says magic is stupid, blue magic in FF games has physical skills too. Now, if you've tested it and it's all magical that's one thing, but if your entire argument about it hitting or not rests on the name of the skillset I have no respect for it. <_<
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blue magic in FF games has physical skills too.
It does? Besides, like, Goblin Punch and its ilk? It's very obviously a magic skillset (vulnerable to Silence, etc.) and saying every skill in it is magical without evidence to the contrary seems completely reasonable.
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Godlike
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs. Isolde Schelling (MK) - Just wait a week and I can vote on this. Hopefully!!
Heavy
Quina Quen (FF9) vs. Worker 8 (FFT)
Alhazad (WA1) vs. Pamela Ibis (MK) - Should probably wait until I get to end game for this...
Middle
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs. Midboss (Disgaea)
Seifer Almasy (FF8) vs. Slash (CT) - Get the hell out Seifer. ;_;
Light
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - Slugfest of the ultimate.
Cyan Garamonde (FF6) vs. Logg (S5)
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Badrach (VP) vs. Porom (FF4) - Unimpressive VP generic.
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blue magic in FF games has physical skills too.
It does? Besides, like, Goblin Punch and its ilk? It's very obviously a magic skillset (vulnerable to Silence, etc.) and saying every skill in it is magical without evidence to the contrary seems completely reasonable.
Moreso that saying just because a skillset is called a certain thing shouldn't instantly mean that it be assumed that that name is completely 100% correct and dictates the entire resistance setting for the attacks of that skillset. I mean, documentation is not perfect, and blue magic skillsets do have physical skills, as you noted, so despite it being magic, it still can hit physical defense. I mean, the entirety of Lunar 2's skillsets are called magic, but Hiro's Triple Sword hits physical defense, as far as I know.
Granted, this is probably more of a terminology argument than anything, but...30 minutes until work is over!
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Talaysen: Yeah, realized that as I was out walking around today, actually. The figures I gave were for exactly 2 crits, when Bern just wants 2 crits or better.
Yoshiken: Thanks for the catch, I fail at multiplication apparently. It doesn't actually make much difference, though... 2 crits are still (barely) lethal. The only thing is that it takes away one route Bern had to victory, that of wearing down Lorenta's Heals... under the incorrect figure, she could pull something like getting a single critical in three chains in a row, breaking a bit more past Lorenta's 80% Heal every time. That doesn't really work anymore, but double crits still do the trick.
Dark Holy Elf, Jo'ou Ranbu, others: Wild Arms 4 hex status effects are utterly undodgeable is my recollection - they hit the hex no matter what, leaving immunity the only way out. I personally allow Guy and others to move, but if you don't allow moving, then Illusion / Slow Down / etc. functionally ignore evasion, I think.
Jo'ou Ranbu: Re: Jessica's Magic Burst and 1.5x overkill, well, as noted in my post before, MB does 1.7 PCHP against the Gigaslash average. It does 1.53 PCHP against the Gigagash damage average (which is fair enough, take the levels at two levels higher than the stat topic and let Guv use a Skill Seed, and he can get to Gigagash).
As for the average with Dragon Soul.... the thing about DS is that then everyone should be at level 65, meaning that all the damage averages should probably be reworked. Checking a YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts3kg7yVoEc&NR=1), it showed whip-Jessica with 500 max MP at lvl. 63 (no idea if Jessica used MP-seeds, though), implying lvl. 65 Jessica can do around 1210 damage with Magic Burst. However, Yangus can now reasonably spam Big Banga with his better MP as well, and Angelo / Jess's damage should also be better, so the damage average is probably even higher than the 235 listed that only uses lvl. 65 Guv's Dragon Soul. I will wildly guess that 300 should be the new damage average, which still gives Jessica 1.6 PCHP overkill. Even if the lvl. 65 damage average is a bit higher than that, Jess should still at least be in the 1.5 PCHP overkill range?
Probably still moot, but throwing it out there.
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Yeah, Dragon Soul and stuff like it is kinda obnoxious. Maybe I should just stop allowing it, or adopt that type of scaling you speak of. I dunno.
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Makes enough sense to discount Dragon Soul from non-Guv averages since it's an aftergame skill that isn't representative of the actual in-balance, just like Glance Reviver/Yamikei.
Some Blue Magic skillsets have some physical stuff, but stuff that's just ITD/set damage and still Blue Magic strike me as magic.
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Jo'ou Ranbu: Re: Jessica's Magic Burst and 1.5x overkill, well, as noted in my post before, MB does 1.7 PCHP against the Gigaslash average. It does 1.53 PCHP against the Gigagash damage average (which is fair enough, take the levels at two levels higher than the stat topic and let Guv use a Skill Seed, and he can get to Gigagash).
I allow Dragon Soul via Yamikei clause, just as with any other aftergame skill, and I take them into averages as a general rule, so I go by the 230~ or so figures - i.e. Magic Burst isn't that impressive in this case. Thinking on it, though, the average figures you posted are reasonable, indeed, I just don't take them as of now. Some of the skills are indeed annoying (*Punts the likes of VP2 Millidia going Godlike because she starts learning the entirety of VP2's menu skills -and- Flame Shot at aftergame levels.*), but so it goes. The aftergame skills get aftergame scaling averages idea sounds neat, buuuuuuuut it's something I wouldn't prescribe to without yanking out precise numbers for it, and eh, effort.
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Eh, limit scaling, I suppose. Should let Cid just get it off.
Mighty Guard only 1 action? How odd. Either way, White Wind still has healing. And was Frog Drop magical or physical or nothing ITD? Not like it makes a huge difference, I guess...Worker 8's defense reduction only helps a bit with the 0 defense thing. Eh, oh well. Eat hype?
Frog Drop is ITD.
Mighty Guard lasts at least two turns. (not counting the turn it's used on) Quina can use it up to three times and still have enough MP left for two of the second most costly skills. (or 5 Frog Drops, 3 White Winds etc.)
Worker 8's best damage (Crush) under MG = 4HKO. Frog Drop is 4HKO alone. Plus you have to remember that Worker 8 takes 1/4 of the damage dealt out by Crush, back in damage to himself.
A few other things to note about Mighty Guard and Worker 8.
1. Worker 8's 'Work' skills ignore the enemy defensive stat in their damage calculations. No more or no less. It doesn't effect other stat or damage modifiers like Protect.
2. Protect is an attack modifier in FFT calculations, not a defensive stat modifier! While it doesn't work in exactly the same way in FFIX, it isn't defensive stat based either.
As for speed and who gets to go first. Against the averages.. Quina's within 20% of average speed, and Worker 8's 30% off of average. So Quina gets the initiative and goes first here.
EDIT: realized this right before I was about to post.
Worker 8 can't win this!
He takes 1/4 of the damage from every Crush. Quina has enough MP to Auto-Life 17 times. He runs out of HP long before Quina runs out of MP. If W8 tries to use normal attacks, Mighty Guard cuts them down to 5HKO damage! against the 4HKO Frog Drop. and MG works against those no matter how you choose to interpret W8.
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Why does Frog Drop being ITD matter when Worker 8 is immune to magic both via Innocent status -and- infinite MDef? Unless Frog Drop is physical, your idea sorta falls flat entirely.
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Why does Frog Drop being ITD matter when Worker 8 is immune to magic both via Innocent status -and- infinite MDef? Unless Frog Drop is physical, your idea sorta falls flat entirely.
It's neither. Frog Drop = (level * #frogs)
So less W8 is immune to "levels" and /or frogs as well, his little trick doesn't work here.
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Re Quina's Auto-Life, the problem is that Quina comes back with piddling HP, so Worker can finish him off with a physical each time. Yeah, Quina can heal, but the healing doesn't stop Crush from killing, so he has to Auto-Life again while Worker kills him for free. Granted, this lets Quina do something on the turns Worker misses, but I don't think those happen too often?
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Why does Frog Drop being ITD matter when Worker 8 is immune to magic both via Innocent status -and- infinite MDef? Unless Frog Drop is physical, your idea sorta falls flat entirely.
It's neither. Frog Drop = (level * #frogs)
So less W8 is immune to "levels" and /or frogs as well, his little trick doesn't work here.
By this logic, I could say that the part of VP:DS magic damage that's solely based on the attacker's level can hit him. But it's still clearly magic! Frog Drop is in a magic skillset, and also is hit by Silence. FF 9 Silence just really gets the magic skillsets, which probably feels like the strongest proof here, especially since there some pseudomagic like skills in FF 9 that don't get hit by silence.
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Re Quina's Auto-Life, the problem is that Quina comes back with piddling HP, so Worker can finish him off with a physical each time. Yeah, Quina can heal, but the healing doesn't stop Crush from killing, so he has to Auto-Life again while Worker kills him for free. Granted, this lets Quina do something on the turns Worker misses, but I don't think those happen too often?
That's where White Wind comes in.
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Why does Frog Drop being ITD matter when Worker 8 is immune to magic both via Innocent status -and- infinite MDef? Unless Frog Drop is physical, your idea sorta falls flat entirely.
It's neither. Frog Drop = (level * #frogs)
So less W8 is immune to "levels" and /or frogs as well, his little trick doesn't work here.
By this logic, I could say that the part of VP:DS magic damage that's solely based on the attacker's level can hit him. But it's still clearly magic! Frog Drop is in a magic skillset, and also is hit by Silence. FF 9 Silence just really gets the magic skillsets, which probably feels like the strongest proof here, especially since there some pseudomagic like skills in FF 9 that don't get hit by silence.
Silence doesn't matter. Worker 8 has effective magical immunity through nulling a stat used by magic. But that effective magical (stat) immunity doesn't equal actual, true magical immunity. It's only immunity against magic stat based attacks. You're conflating a magical stat immunity with full magic immunity. If Frog Drop was in FFT, it would hit W8 without any issue. That's the way his immunity is setup. Like with his skills, it's nothing more, nothing less.
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So by that logic, would all BoF 1 magic hit him because it's just set damage? Would White Wind work since it's just based on the caster's HP? This is in regards to the auto-Innocent part since Frog Drop would indeed ignore his infinite Mdef.
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Re Quina's Auto-Life, the problem is that Quina comes back with piddling HP, so Worker can finish him off with a physical each time. Yeah, Quina can heal, but the healing doesn't stop Crush from killing, so he has to Auto-Life again while Worker kills him for free. Granted, this lets Quina do something on the turns Worker misses, but I don't think those happen too often?
That's where White Wind comes in.
White Wind healing is really awful. 25% mHP healing by endgame or something sad like that? It's still easy picking for a W8 physical, which is above average damage.
EDIT: Also, way to not notice the whole "Innocent status" thing. Even past the infinite MDef, Worker 8 has a permanent status effect that nulls all magic that hits him. I don't remember if 0 Faith grants him the status or not, but it's mechanically a step beyond infinite MDef, certainly.
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White Wind is just 33% MHP healing (based on the caster's HP), so a it's little better! It's thing in game is MT healing during a short period when you don't really have any solid healer.
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Ah, yes, Gulg Volcano. I stab at thee, memories of youth.
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I actually meant Cleyra's base, but I suppose Gurgu Volcano works too since your healer is still unsteady then.
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Godlike
Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) This is pretty clear-cut to me. Perfect PEvade, Chaos Disorder...just in general.
Heavy
Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7) - Yeah, uh, Guy vs. Arnaud evade. That's before Shut Out.
Middle
Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7) - Can probably avoid a limit. Most FF7 characters in the DL are "meh" at best. Cid's no exception.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4) - Katt really wishes she had shamanization here. Warla, Telele, and near-limitless healing equate some sort of stupidly sick rape.
Light
Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - I never even USED Roger, and I can tell he's better than Rufus. Who completely blows without scaling, even.
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I'll just admit that after having nominated my favorite character Katt for so many weeks, I'm awfully sad that she'll get destroyed that badly :(
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In credit to the BoF1 Magic Argument, it DOES hit magic defense in game, just BoF1 has a really screwed up Magic Defense system (Magic Defense only applies when you use Defend and/or Shield, where the damage reduction is affected by the character's Magic Defense score.)
Though, I think an odd parallel to this scenario, odd cause the series is so fucked up in this regard, is SMT Null Magic.
I seem to recall that Null/Reflect/Absorb Magic in Persona 2 hits many Set Damage Moves like Heiros Glupaine, cause they are technically magical, yet they ignore magic defense and what not, or heck, the character's stats in general. However, it still rams into Magic Immunity. Why should Frog Drop vs. Worker 8's Magic Immunity be any different?
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Because Frog Drop isn't magic-based -or- physical-based, as far as I know.
This goes back to the argument about the naming of moves - Silence blocks the "Blue Magic" command, which also contains attacks that are physical-based. Arguing that it's magic based solely around the naming of it is completely pointless, as that doesn't actually give anything other than a category for the attack, not how it actually works.
Seems there's no specific way to determine if it's physical or magical, so I guess that's open to interpretation.
Judging from my most recent finding, though, I'm gonna have to say that it does look like Quina loses - Goblin Punch is based on Magic in FFIX, not Attack. If that's not physical, I highly doubt Frog Drop or Limit Glove are.
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Actually I'm pretty sure worker 8 can be hit by Rafa's truth skills, which ignore faith. (I remember using it on an enemy with Worker 8 in the area and worker died because it was the lightning one). Rafa's truth damage is MAGIC based and ignores all MDEF (faith). I'd say Frog Drop is something similar.
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I don't think Rafa's skills are Silence-able though.
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Rafa's skills are the same as breath attacks. They're very explicitly not magical.
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Rafa's skills are the same as breath attacks. They're very explicitly not magical.
BMG lists them as magical and they use MA in the formula. I think they get hit by Magic DefendUP as well, but unsure about that.
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I'll just admit that after having nominated my favorite character Katt for so many weeks, I'm awfully sad that she'll get destroyed that badly :(
Yeah, but don't feel too bad, at least Katt's losing to someone -good- and not being robbed. Kyra's really more of a Low Heavy, while Katt's an average Middle. She'll get another chance!
That's an interesting note about BoF MDEF, though. It kind of makes sense, in a 'story' way. I mean, just how many people have any kind of 'natural' defense against magic? I can buy it from elves or gods or demons maybe, but normal mortals and humans should be pretty squishy to it. The idea that their 'natural tolerance' to magic is only noticeable when someone has used a magical shield on them makes sense to me.
I mean, even a giant wave of fire comes roaring at you and your only defense is the thickness of your skin... that's not doing much. Those barriers/force shields seem pretty vital for mortals facing magical attack.
Of course, too much reality makes for boring gameplay, and I can see why more recent games have moved away from the BoF model of MDEF (and I approve).
-Djinn
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So by that logic, would all BoF 1 magic hit him because it's just set damage? Would White Wind work since it's just based on the caster's HP? This is in regards to the auto-Innocent part since Frog Drop would indeed ignore his infinite Mdef.
1. BoF 1 has magic defense. (see Meeplelard's post)
2. BoF 1's magic hits MD (see 1 ^) and is not ITD. Frog Drop hits no defense and is ITD.
EDIT: Also, way to not notice the whole "Innocent status" thing. Even past the infinite MDef, Worker 8 has a permanent status effect that nulls all magic that hits him. I don't remember if 0 Faith grants him the status or not, but it's mechanically a step beyond infinite MDef, certainly.
Infinite MDef against what?? Frog Drop doesn't hit magic defense! "_ minus infinity" ?!?
Seems there's no specific way to determine if it's physical or magical, so I guess that's open to interpretation.
Judging from my most recent finding, though, I'm gonna have to say that it does look like Quina loses - Goblin Punch is based on Magic in FFIX, not Attack. If that's not physical, I highly doubt Frog Drop or Limit Glove are.
What do you mean? Frog Drop is in no way based on magic, offensive or defensive.
I don't think Rafa's skills are Silence-able though.
Not true. Silence works on Truth just like the others.
[Silence]
Description: Character cannot use Silence-flagged magic or TALK SKILL.
Specifically, the following attacks are disabled (the name of a skillset
means that the entire skillset is disabled by Silence):
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WHITE MAGIC TRUTH Deathspell 2 All-ultima
BLACK MAGIC UN-TRUTH MBarrier Mute
TIME MAGIC BIO Melt Despair 2
YIN-YANG MAGIC JA MAGIC Tornado Return 2
SUMMON MAGIC Ultima (09A) Quake Death Sentence (0EA)
TALK SKILL Dark Holy Ultima (0E5) Midgar Swarm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So much for the "Silence > Blue Magic = immunity" and "Uber magic immunity" arguments.
Rafa's skills are the same as breath attacks. They're very explicitly not magical.
No. They are both magical, but are not based on faith in their damage formula. (hit MA only.. something Frog Drop doesn't even do)
Truth damage = [(MA + spell power) / 2] * MA
Breath damage = MA * spell power
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Can Frog Drop be reflected? I don't think so, but if it could, that would seal my opinion on it as Magic. And if Frog Drop can indeed be classified as "magic", then I would see Worker 8 as anulling it.