The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: DjinnAndTonic on January 16, 2009, 07:01:13 PM
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I was looking at the DL roster recently and I was somewhat surprised to notice that BoF5 Ryu is not ranked. (Yes, I know, old news, but I hadn't played the game, nor was I around when it was ranked.) Checking the stat topic, I see that was simply overpowered, though not nearly as much as other Bluelikes that I've been hearing about lately.
So I was curious, of the ranked series, who are the notable Bluelikes? And what makes them so Bluelike that they couldn't possibly lose against Godlike? I'm especially curious if any of the older Bluelikes might be viable candidates for ranking against the new-and-improved Godlike field which now includes people like Lady, Heat, and Beatrice.
Bluelikes I know of:
Blue - Obviously. I'm guessing it's his Overdrive Loop that earns him this spot, though Tower and ID probably don't hurt.
Minato - Initiative, items, invincibility, insane overkill - he was a big point of contention recently.
Aigis (P3FES) - Likewise, Minato-lite.
Nyx Avatar - Invincibility tricks
Ryu5 - Too much damage without the *game over* penalty you get in BoF5, I suppose. He might be rankable against the current high Godlikes?
Jezuit - Don't really know much about this one.
Farmel - Invincibility tricks
Gawn - Gimmicky OHKO damage
Hauser - Free turns from nowhere! May not be Bluelike
Volsung - Invincibility loop
Nega Filgaia - 10-part form-chain!
Magimaster - Locks down physicals? Awesome final attack. May not be Bluelike.
Repede - Invincibility tricks, recently discussed
Marona - !? Not really a ranked series, but I remember that her Confining prowess were uber-respected for some reason.
Revya w/ Summoning - Similar to Marona, which is unfortunate because w/o summoning, she's a cool Godlike in her own right.
Zetta the Sacred Tome - Blitz version of Marona
SMT1 Hero - Yuna-lite summoning, but with a more varied skillset in his summons, possibly -not- Bluelike
SMT2 Aleph - Same as his predecessor
Demi-Fiend - Well, his DDS form is just ridiculous...
Brahman - Form-chaining, multi-turning, durable-as-hell
Sulphur - Varies on respect
Infinity (BoF4) - Regens 9999 HP per turn + Overkill damage. Yeah...
Neku (TWEWY) - OHKO combos, the Pins give him the skillset of the gods
...There's probably a ton of others, but I'm not very familiar with them. Anyone know of any more prominent Bluelikes?
-Djinn
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If you allow Shield Skills, Ryu5 can equip a status-immunity armor, and then set Valor, giving him auto-revive at 1HP. I don't know about Beatrice, but he beats Heat since he gets at least two Hurricanes in a round, and even if you see Lost Progress dispelling D-Charge, he can always D-breath her down and survive the final attack. This is assuming you don't allow his defenses to be infinite against non "Anti-dragon" attacks, like they pretty much are in game. Nope, still pretty Bluelike.
Marona gets respect from her Uber Initiative and being able to summon things also with initiative (Werewolves, Ash), as I recall. Not sure she's Bluelike off that alone.
Minato's hugest issues were always the Initiative and the ridiculous overkill, and what you allow for Persona effects the latter but not the former. For what it's worth, I think P4 Main is way more rankable, though still High Godlike.
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Trump card seems pretty Bluelike to me with his 3x overkill damage and not being killed by hp damage. Though to be fair he does lose to quite a few godlikes with shields (Yuna, Asgard and Belial from the top of my head)
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If you allow Shield Skills, Ryu5 can equip a status-immunity armor, and then set Valor, giving him auto-revive at 1HP.
If memory serves people don't allow BoF5's status immunity armors because they were ridiculously expensive, to the point of being impossible to outfit a party with except for in NG+. Same problem people have with Lufia 2's ID blockers.
Can anyone set valor or just Ryu? If the former no one would allow it.
Anyway. There's also Brahman (final boss of DDS2), who has an insanely powerful stat drain, a shitload of HP that's buffered in 4 spots, and decent damage.
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Marona - !? Not really a ranked series, but I remember that her Confining prowess were uber-respected for some reason.
Durable fighters can still handle Marona. Sulphur feels closer to a Bluelike thanks to the speed and offense. Jezuit ended up as a verging Bluelike as well, I believe.
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Didn't Jezuit pretty much have infinite invincibility spam?
Marona really depends on what you consider legal/how you see confine working, and she can range anywhere from a pretty bad Light to a High Godlike depending.
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Minato: Items?
Aigis isn't Bluelike, just a really good Godlike. Still fries to powerful NE damage. I vote on the FES form, afterall. >.>
Ryu5's still not rankable now. The only way to win is to go first and OHKO pretty much (unless you don't allow the status blocker I guess).
Farmel: We almost ranked her by arbitrarily throwing out Darkness Stance. I thought that was a stupid idea anyways.
Marona varies highly on respect. If you don't see the arena cluttered with items to confine to, she's not that good.
Brahman's HP isn't all that great, really, and his damage isn't much before Eternal Zero. Probably not a Bluelike, but certainly a great Godlike due to HP buffering.
Sulphur again depends a lot on respect.
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P3Fes Aigis is kinda like P4 Main to me. Give us a valid interp of her and maybe the DL'll consider, but until then...
Ryu5 is ... yeah. Granted I have a few qualms with him not being ranked (nothing to do with him being the main, just... eh, I consider Full Aeon Yuna to be almost as bad in many ways, but your mileage may vary etc.,. It's why I don't vote on Full Aeon Yuna, though whether I allow one aeon or just force her solo I'm still fluctuating on. 3.0x durability influences this, mind.)
Farmel's silly yes. How many people can even beat her, DL-legally?
Marona is respect-based, Sulphur as well though most people seem to at least respect Sulphur a lot so.
Brahman... The HP is bad but he's Jenna-like in that he gets actions for each form after the first no matter what, so it really doesn't matter what his HP is - 14 attacks under Eternal Zero's gonna ravage anyone he faces off against (EZ+4 attacks+5 attacks*2). Lady beats him is my instinct, but no one else in the DL manages. granted, don't allow him the HP buffers and he's... a boss that unlocks his best attack at ~75% HP and has maybe 2xPCHP? Less? Far more beatable that way but still scary brutal.
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Probably more than 2PCHP? It's worth noting he has over double the HP of the previous boss, who should certainly go past PC easily enough to most people. No HP buffering makes him viable in non-Bluelike I guess, but with HP buffering he's very clearly there.
Anyway, CK already ran a Bluelike tournament; I should dig up the link. Most people have already been cited that were in it: Gawn, Blue, Jezuit, Brahman. I think he also had an array of superbosses there: Ruby Weapon, Unlimited Indalecio, FFX Fenrir, etc.
Ryu5 isn't Bluelike on average, but he has other reasons for not being ranked: huge interp split. Running on a finite resource always means interp issues, and he varies based on what BoF5 stuff you allow more than most. It was particularly bad at the time because more people allowed Bari equips without taking them into the average, then.
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Repede suffers from being an ARPG PC and thus "average speed" to a lot of people. Also, fast dispel arguably gets him. Of course, if you do ARPG by time then he can activate Gale Dog stupid fast.
Sulphur ought to be ridiculously badass unless you are one of the folks who see Kefka/Sephiroth as .2PCHP or something.
Certain scalings of SRW bosses result in them being insanely good. I imagine the same holds true for The Last Remnant bosses.
That said, there aren't that many folks with actual initiative "instant-win" buttons.
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Wasn't there someone else from ToV with invincibility hax?
Would N1-style cameo PCs and superbosses count as "Bluelikes" or are they just unranked due to not being maingame?
Wasn't sure if Priere would be considered Bluelike, for example.
I think there was also a WA5 boss with an invincibility loop who should probably go on the list...
-Djinn
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The other ToV PC with invincibility is Estelle, who can randomly (~5% chance) get permanency on her buffs. One of those buffs is the traditional Force Field effect that grants temporary invulnerability. Commence mockery of whatever fight she's in if it kicks in. This is pretty much entirely an in-game thing, since she doesn't even have the TP to use it enough where she'd get a >50% chance of it kicking in.
The WA5 boss you're thinking of is Volsung, who has a "Use one turn to take two" skill. There is nothing that outright prevents him from using this skill again on one of the two turns granted by the first use, hence infinite turns.
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Would N1-style cameo PCs and superbosses count as "Bluelikes" or are they just unranked due to not being maingame?
Wasn't sure if Priere would be considered Bluelike, for example.
Aftergame forms are generally not allowed, because, well, they're aftergame. Pretty much the same reason we don't generally allow aftergame equips, skills, etc. I mean in that case most (all?) N1 characters have alternate better forms they could be using, and some of those ARE ranked.
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Just was thinking about this, but would TWEWY Neku be considered a ridiculous Bluelike?
Souji seems like he borders on Bluelike... or maybe he just has interp split.
-Djinn
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Hey, the old boards had a tournament with this stuff!
[quote author-CmdrKing]
1. Blue (SaGa Frontier)
2. Infinity (Breath of Fire IV)
3. Demifiend (Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne)
4. Unlimited Indalecio (Star Ocean: The Second Story)
5. Gawn Bawdia (Wild ARMs 4)
6. Prinny Baal (Disgaea Series)
7. Magimaster (Final Fantasy VI)
8. Ruby WEAPON (Final Fantasy VII)
9. Bat(Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga)
10. Jezuit (Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter)
11. Ryu (Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter)
12. Nega Filgaia (Wild ARMs 3)
13. Brahman (Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga 2)
14. Yuna (Final Fantasy X)
15. Omega Weapon (Final Fantasy VIII)
16. Hauser Blackwell (Wild ARMs 4)
[/quote]
DQ5 has multiple Bluelikes... huh.
Why is it WA4 bosses all seem to be either unrankably powerful[Farmel] or ridiculously laughable[Emil]?
-Djinn
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Scythe/Fiore/Asia/Tony hover around the middle. Likely Balgaine too, though interps could swing him lots of ways. And since I don't really get Darkness Stance hype for Farmel (it's another take on Zio's Magic Barrier to me) she also is in this range!
Then there's Belial/Lambda/Hugo (maybe), who are powerful, but rankably so.
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Farmel can spam Darkness Stance even when you move her. She usually DOESN'T, but she can.
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The WA5 boss you're thinking of is Volsung, who has a "Use one turn to take two" skill. There is nothing that outright prevents him from using this skill again on one of the two turns granted by the first use, hence infinite turns.
Think that sort of ruling would cut out quite a few Shin Megami Tensei bosses, seeing as a lot of them use moves like this, examples being any of the DDS1 characters' Solar Data - Harley, Bat, Mick & Varin.
That said, it'd be easy enough for the RPGDL to say that moves like this are limited/banned, in which case they wouldn't have any other reason to be classified as Bluelike, ya? (Well, except for possibly Bat, seeing as that status hits through any and all protection. ¬_¬)
(Oh, and when I'm talking about any DDS characters, I'm referring to DDS2 forms only - not played the first.)
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Mmm. DDS2... There is a hard cap on the "get more actions" skills in-game, which I would force to carry over even under "full AI freedom", as that doesn't count as an AI restriction so much as an ability restriction. Sorta like Raquel Intrude, except they just get 25 FP a turn, get a larger amount of actions (some do), and can't accumulate FP via actions.
So eh. There really isn't any Bluelike DDS1 non-optional boss (except maybe Jenna due to interps), DDS2's final is probably Low Bluelike - there may be one or two duelers who can beat him but, in effect, there just aren't enough.
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Like Tai said, DDS bosses have strict restrictions on when and how many times they can use those skills. Volsung has no restriction at all. It's just a %chance on certain turns (3,4, 7,8, etc.), but in theory if you're unlucky it's possible for him to chain that any number of turns.
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I seem to recall having trouble filling in a bracket, hence Yuna and Ryu 5 (more of a "well, you say they're too awesome, prove it" than a "they are unrankably good godlikes") and some of the more boring uberbosses. That said, that tourney predated the Persona revival, so Minato and Souji would be right at home there now.
Brahman... well. The Eternal Zero basically means that you aren't killing him, while he nails you for overkill damage, unless you immune stat busts. I remember playing DDS2 and bouncing him around in my head and ultimately deciding a single-digit number of Godlikes bested him. Heck, I think he was the inspiration for the tourney.
Hauser... .well, he doesn't seem Bluelike does he. But he's got Acellerator, which is pretty much literally "spawn turns from the nether regions of his bowels" with no discernable rhyme or reason.
Nega Filgaia is hilarious. Averages about a 4HKO! But it's a chain of gimmick bosses that, between them, can stop basically any Godlike cold.
Everything else is pretty straightforward, Blue is Blue, Infinity is a PC that regens 9999 damage per turn, Demifiend is immune to things with pesky 'Elements' attatched, that sort of thing.
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...From the sounds of things, it seems like another Bluelike tourney's in order...
And, I know it's not ranked, but some of the SMT:Nocturne bosses can use multi-turn attacks more than once in a turn. I've only seen it once, so it's definitely rare, but I'm not sure if the same is possible in DDS - they can only use the moves when they're down to 1 press turn, but I know Ose used Devil's Eye twice in a turn against me. (I remember that because he went and killed me as a result of it. >.>)
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DDS has a hard lock. SMT:N can - I've also seen it - but it's really rare.
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As I recall the mechanics of it, Rage/Psycho Rage act by converting a full turn into 2/4 half-turns, and failed if you only have half-turns remaining. As such, they can't actually be used to create infinite turns.
That said, high end SMT bosses have an interesting way of having immunities and gimmicks such that they woudl be unrankable in DL terms anyway. You'd be amazed how many Godlikes lose to someone that nulls Physical/Fire/Lightning at the same time, let along broad immunities like Demifiend's.
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Well, even with immunities, I don't think many would be unrankable because of ridiculous weaknesses. (Bosses weak to status/death? Good when playing, bad if you're controlling them.) I mean, the final two bosses of SMT:N, for example, have no specific immunities other than status, methinks. (Godly defence and an insane number of turns, but no immunities.)
And, actually, thinking about DDS2... Rage/Psycho Rage only activate at the start of a turn, don't they? I guess that explains why those are locked. As for SMT:N's Devil/Beast's Eye, they just turn one turn into multiple. Doesn't need to be a whole turn.
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Most SMT:N bosses have the "one dragon's eye/beast eye per turn" restrictions, but there's a couple bosses in Masakados's dungeon that break that rule. If they freeze or shock you after dragon eye, they're allowed to do a beast eye which they spend on physicals to hack the statused target apart.
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Frue final boss of SMT:N is pretty much unrankable. It is completely possible to -miss- the skill you need to do anything other than high double digit damage to him, and equally possible to accidentally get rid of it since you don't know that's what it's for. As such he's horrendously durable and outslugs pretty much the entirety of the DL.
The boss before... blitzable, yeah. Mid-Godlike probably.
There's still multiple bosses from SMT:N which are just unfeasible, though I'm drawing a blank on specific examples. (Arguably Ahriman's "Gates of Hell" phase makes him too much of a gimmick boss, for example).
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Ahriman's pure evil regardless. >_> Second strongest attack in the whole game, IIRC...
And Lucifer's durability might be amazing, but the majority of his attacks are weak and he relies almost entirely on status to stand a chance - up against another character with good durability & some status resistance, he'd be outslugged.
Baal Avatar would be Bluelike, almost no doubt. Again, IIRC, Bael's Bane is unblockable... right?
Is there gonna be a Bluelike tourney run? I know that wasn't the original intention of this topic, but I think it seems like a good idea... I'd be happy to help out where possible, although "where possible" for me isn't very much. :P
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Is there gonna be a Bluelike tourney run? I know that wasn't the original intention of this topic, but I think it seems like a good idea... I'd be happy to help out where possible, although "where possible" for me isn't very much. :P
While not the original intent of this topic, it certainly would be interesting to see another Bluelike Tourney. Maybe it could combine elements of the Twink League, too. There's not a lot of PCs in the lineup of Bluelike, so if you took the Bluelike bosses and combined it with a few PCs with some twinking options... Well, it sounds like it would be a powerful roster for a tourney.
Anyway, all this talk of SMT bosses reminded me that P3's final boss is pretty Bluelike, too... though I'm not sure if he's high Bluelike compared some of these other SMT guys... >.>;;
-Djinn
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The physical's a low 2HKO when double-acted, you are -not- blowing past the limit phase at which point he gets... well, borderline OHKO or 50% cHP damage+low 2HKO damage (don't remember if King of Kings could be doubleacted).
Oh, and the physical has absurd crit chances.
Effectively he's deceptively brutal at stacking damage up. If you've played MMXCM, he's Silver Horn trading the limit durability boost and speed for a more brutal damage reduction game and the doubleacting; arguably a winning trade. There's probably a few Godlikes who beat him? Maybe? Depending on interp? But the number's drastically low. (Aeon Yuna has the best argument from what I can tell.)
And Bael's Bane... ignores status/light/dark PC immunity. Arguably works on bosses, that's an interp call.
Ninja Edit: Moonless Gown/Night Queen ensures Nyx bluelike status, yes.
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People like Bat and Baal Avatar ignore all status protection that PCs can get in game, but that doesn't mean it gets past the universal status immunity most bosses in the DL have. I'd see them not affecting most bosses, and working on most PCs, though a specific blocker for transform (imp, etc.) would stop it - SMT PCs simply don't have access to those blockers.
Damage on SMT:N endgame bosses is a headache since so many things can influence it. I remember lucifer 9HKOing with the physical. That would make him total bait to someone like Wren in the DL.
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Just flicking through some old seasons (seeing as I wasn't around for when they actually happened...), noticed a lot of duellers who've been removed from the DL. How many of those are Bluelikes? (And why were they removed, if not this? ???)
A tournament with those, Bluelikes & twinked PCs could be quite interesting... And probably not -too- hard to get a decent roster for, methinks.
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None of the ones we've retired have been because they were bluelike. Some were drawing problems (We have Orgodemir from DQ7), one or two had form issues. (Necron, Dario).
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Lucifer's damage sucks if you stack buffs/debuffs on him. It was like a 3HKO on Hard mode and I was underlevelled. Not getting much hype from me as a result.
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None of the ones we've retired have been because they were bluelike. Some were drawing problems (We have Orgodemir from DQ7), one or two had form issues. (Necron, Dario).
Orgodemir was ranked?! When? I've never even heard of this before? He doesn't show up on the DL Stats topic or on the drawing history webpage (the only reason I knew about Meis)? At least, I'd never seen him there before?
What other games have been deleted?
-Djinn
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Orgo is the only one unlisted. He was ranked for... oh hell, from season 5 to season 7. Not long at all. Didn't get a match, just was deleted.
All other boots can be found in my DLnotes topic.
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Talaysen: Thus why, say, Brahman would break his ass somewhat, but I'm not penalizing his damage unless he actually goes up against a buffer/debuffer - don't think it's all too fair to allow for a potential double-penalization there.
(And he has Dekaja/Dekunda anyway.)
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Every boss with Rage or Psycho Rage has a clear once-per-round restriction on those moves. So no infinite turns are possible. Don't know how it works in SMT:N, but the DDS hype isn't warranted. As Tal observes, though, Infinite Volsung turns is possible, just unlikely.
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Eh, I can't see a Bluelike Tourney being that interesting. I know the first Twink League didn't have that many restraints on the PCs, so the last few rounds of the final were basically a PC based Bluelike thing. And the entire thing devolved into initiative wars. He who could start his infinite/overkill combo first, won. So... yeah. Though, hey, Darkness Stance might make things interesting.
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Eh, most SMT bosses are strategic fights that place a far greater emphasis on learning and exploiting flaws than other RPGs. While this generally makes them tougher bosses when playing the game, the assumption in the Duelling League that the opponents knows everything about each other and use perfect strategy takes away a lot of their perceived killing power (Unless your're against DDS Demifiend where you lose 80% of the time even when applying perfect, flawless strategy).
My own observations:
Lucifer is a pretty clear-cut Bluelike. Root of All Evil does 50% cHP in damage on a good day and 90% cHP in damage on a bad day. High King is a solid 2HKO discounting any buffing. 80% damage reduction to any and all damage just means he outslugs just about everyone in Godlike. PC healers who try to wall him eventually eat a 90% Root and promptly die on the next attack, most bosses lack good healing and just lose an attrition war.
Baal Avatar is nothing special. Bael's Bane is easily blocked by Curse Immunity, which basically means anyone immune to Poison/Silence/Gravity Damage/whatever-else-you-consider-SMT Curse laughs at it (its definitely blockable in-game, unlike Bat's similar attack, and almost all high end demons laugh at it; Demifiend just puts on Djed or Masakados and laughs at it). Outside her gimmick move, Baal Avatar has horrible damage, innaccurate ID, and frail as hell summons. Probably struggles in low Godlike, let alone Bluelike.
Ahriman...probably not a Bluelike, but is a solid godlike. Most Godlikes can get through his stupid game phase with two or three attacks (6000 HP at that point in the game is...uh...sad), so having extreme variety isn't that necessary. Second phase has Apocalypse, which is pretty solid, but he's still inferior to Lucifer and Kagutschi.
Kagutsuchi is probably a fairly high godlike. Infinite Light does stupid amounts of damage...and he has almost triple the HP of Noah. Wasting a turn announcing he's going to nuke you into oblivion brings him down a fair bit, although 125% PC HP in raw Almighty damage is still painful, even if its every other round.
Brahman...yeah, Eternal Zero saves his ass and propels him all the way to borderline Bluelike. Probably low godlike without that...if even that. SMT buffing is that evil.
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I didn't do as much twinking in DDS as I did in SMT:N, so Brahman had high 2HKO damage over his actions, a truckload of HP, and 4 buffer points. That alone makes a decent godlike, though not a bluelike.
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Apparently there is a trick where you can drain DDS Demifiend's summoned creatures of MP and ensure he never uses his super-move or whatever it was, so perfect strategy does do him in.
Not that I would ever try this, I'm not that crazy.
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Apparently there is a trick where you can drain DDS Demifiend's summoned creatures of MP and ensure he never uses his super-move or whatever it was, so perfect strategy does do him in.
Not really. You can't effectively drain the first two summons because they use low MP spells with very fatal effects. Eventually Girimekhala will get lucky and wipe you out with Mamudoon or CuChulainn will get lucky and Sakura Rage will Charm your entire party. Crits from the Demifiend means his demons get extra turns so they can't be solely locked into Dekaja/Dekunda spam. That and if you're spamming -kaja/-kunda spells to lock them, this means you'll get Taunted to minimal defense with no means to Dekunda and you'll be taking a heavy beating from Demifiend's attacks.
The summon you drain of MP is Pixie (all she does is spam a weaksauce Megidolaon), which requires surviving a Gaea Rage to even get to. That alone is around a 50/50 chance (You need to be hit with Dormina, which is hard because you need high stats to avoid getting spammed into oblivion).
Even then, it takes Pixie 1 turn less than her Recarmdra turn to run out of MP when casting Megidolaon. This means she still has enough MP left for 3 Dekundas before running out of MP completely. If the Demifiend gets a single critical hit out of his six attempts, Pixie gets that extra turn and suicides herself. Even with Null Critical, the chances of him getting a critical each attack are high (somewhere between 50 and 75%). Your only hope is that if he ever does get a critical, someone else dodges his attack (Probably a 30-50% chance if he's hit with one Debilitate and you have one Sukukaja up).
All a perfect strategy does is minimize the amount of luck needed to beat him. No matter the strategy, luck will always be the biggest determining factor of whether you beat him or not.
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Oh, so it just sucks and is stupid no matter what. Got it.
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Oh, so it just sucks and is stupid no matter what. Got it.
Yeah, that sums it up. Its a 40 minute fight you have a 20-30% chance of winning. So fun.
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More thoughts on Bluelikes, since SMT came up. The leads from SMT1 and 2 have unique commands which allow them to summon demons that other human PCs don't get. They can both carry up to 12 demons and can have 5 summoned at a time. If they start a battle alone, it takes up a turn each time they summon a demon. Since these are unique commands, it seems entirely legal to allow it to them. They're also decently powerful PCs without the summoning (though their tricks are much more limited).
Along the same lines, Revya from Soul Nomad has unique summoning abilities, and if you allow this, she'd be a Bluelike like Marona. Revya can summon up to 8 squads of generic demons without taking up a turn. Marona can summon up to 14 phantoms, though these are limited by their turn limits.
Similarly, Zetta as the Sacred Tome from Makai Kingdom only has 1 ability - the ability to summon generic demon units, as well as vehicles and buildings. However, unlike generic units, buildings and vehicles are created by PCs, so they may not count as unique to Zetta, even though he's the one that actually summons them to battle. Zetta as the Sacred Tome is level 2000 and has a lot of durability, but if he takes even one attack, he's no longer able to summon units. Also, anytime he is hit, all of his currently-summoned units take the same amount of damage dealt. He always gets initiative, and he can summon his full army in his first turn, though if the enemy attacks him with any significant damage (or status effects), his whole army feels it, too. An interesting blitz technique to say the least, and a cool Bluelike idea.
And a cool one that was featured in the last Twink Tourney... Red from Pokemon GSC. Since Red has no attackable form himself, and relies solely on his pokemon for health/damage, he's a required Aeon Parade that can't be 'outsped' like Yuna, (but his team is much less dangerous than Yuna's Aeon Parade).
-Djinn, still on a mission to collect a list of interesting Bluelikes.
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Bundt/Raspberry from Super Mario RPG, if you interpt them exactly as is in game, could be borderline bluelike. It takes a good twelve hits to get the candles out if you're fighting 1-on-1, it has an attack that halves life, and one that causes fear. Basically, unless its opponant can heal and has a lot of magic to use it, and can tank through the candle part, they have a very good chance of losing.
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He would crash and burn in a bluelike tourney simply because a lot of voters do not take him that way.
Personally I scale down his candles to 2, because that gimmick can actually be expressed as typical durability... he has 6 HP, takes 1 damage from everything, and regens 1 HP per turn. Every other boss gets reduced HP, why not Bundt?
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Don't you take healing as a percentage of the total unchanged from in-game, though? That'd make Bundt gain 1/3 of an HP/candle per turn. Unless you round up, I suppose.
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Things kind of get hard to handle when you go down to single digit figures, don't they?
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P3Fes Aigis is kinda like P4 Main to me. Give us a valid interp of her and maybe the DL'll consider, but until then...
As I've said before, I don't really see either of them as bluelike. I don't give them skill inheritance, 'cause of the whole customization thing. This still makes them crazy good but they're beatable by a character with enough variety. (Or non-elemental magic)
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P3Fes Aigis is kinda like P4 Main to me. Give us a valid interp of her and maybe the DL'll consider, but until then...
As I've said before, I don't really see either of them as bluelike. I don't give them skill inheritance, 'cause of the whole customization thing. This still makes them crazy good but they're beatable by a character with enough variety. (Or non-elemental magic)
That's not his point. What you said just drove the point he's making further: the issue is less about them being Bluelike than them being an absolute interp clusterfuck with three billion variables that drop kitchen sinks into averages as one of the less insane consequences. There has been no sign of consensus on how to interpretate even basic aspects of Minato and Aigis, and I doubt one will come up. When duellers are difficult to interpret to the point where you can't even peg them down safely into an average, they have no business being in the DL. Whether they're beatable or not is irrelevant to that issue.
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Well, I created this topic for all duellers who would have a -possible- legal Bluelike form. Minato, FES Aigis, and Souji definitely have Bluelike forms that are legal under fairly normal interps.
I suppose there are some currently-ranked duellers who could be Bluelike under fairly unusual interps that I don't have listed yet, but I think I've got most of the ones from ranked games...