The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Jo'ou Ranbu on December 27, 2008, 07:04:20 AM
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Godlike
Fou-Lu (BoF4) vs Heat (DDS)
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)
Cloud of Darkness (FF3) vs Violetta (G3)
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7)
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT)
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1)
Maya Amano (P2) vs Hallec (S3)
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2)
Middle
Lin (BoF5) vs Jet Enduro (WA3)
Fred Maximilian (S3) vs Aigis (P3)
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7)
Sania (AtLC) vs Ronnie Bell (S1)
Light
Oulan (S2) vs Tink (Disgaea 2)
Starky (CC) vs Mel (S3)
Snowe Vingerhut (S4) vs Bartre (FE7)
Melody Vilente (WA3) vs Titania (FE9)
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Godlike
Fou-Lu (BoF4) vs Heat (DDS)- Heat. Yeah, gut says Fou Lu being slower doesn't work well here.
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)- Unsure. Chris gets that SL off first, but Yuri 2 has a shot since SR is like 170% speed.
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7)- OHKO Physical+Speed works here.
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT)
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1)- Blah. Larva has like a 16% chance of a status that wrecks Alicia. Think about this later.
Maya Amano (P2) vs Hallec (S3)- Another blah. I don't really factor those Persona level up boosts into averages, so I guess that makes Maya...slower? faster?
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2)- OHKOs, although Dyce 3HKOs to me anyways.
Middle
Lin (BoF5) vs Jet Enduro (WA3)- All of Middle is very straighforward.
Fred Maximilian (S3) vs Aigis (P3)
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7)
Sania (AtLC) vs Ronnie Bell (S1)
Light
Oulan (S2) vs Tink (Disgaea 2)- Massive durability edge is enough to take an extra Tink attack, I think.
Starky (CC) vs Mel (S3)- Gut says he can scrape a 3HKO (Since he does indeed scrape a 3HKO to me), and he can do it faster. Mel's below average defense adds up.
Snowe Vingerhut (S4) vs Bartre (FE7)- Didn't realize that Snowe probably misses out on the double by a bit.
Melody (WA3) vs Titania (FE9)
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Godlike
Fou-Lu (BoF4) vs Heat (DDS) - Okay, so DDS2 Heat actually walks all over Fou-Lu.
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs) - Don't see how Yuri can handle Chris at all, going by SH1. SL is faster, Yuri 3HKOs average with a physical that hits three times, thus gets consistently tucked down by Chris' evade, and that's ignoring how she's actually tanky and gets 5HKOed by Yuri before evade. He may lap her once before SL runs out, but she also 4HKOs Yuri at worst -anyway-. Defend doesn't really help here, considering how Chris' crits are partially ITD and they make for a fairly notable part of her damage. So eh.
Cloud of Darkness (FF3) vs Violetta (G3) - I think Violetta actually likes FF3j CoD? Oh well.
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT) - Beo fails so goddamned hard at blowing past Zeal.
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1) - Eeeeeh. Alicia blocks ID, then most of Keith's shoddy status can be Cure Condition'd away. She... 4HKOs him as well, so he's spending half the time casting his crappy parasitic healing, which takes a hit from equipping Jiru, and if he's not equipping Jiru, Alicia's equipping a blocker to one of his potentially more dangerous status as well. She just outstalls him, pretty much.
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2) - Hashed this out with super earlier in chat. Kneejerk is that Claude goes first (9 Speed on Dyce and Thief Hats are now storebought, so yeah) and OHKOs. Which pretty much seals this.
Middle
Fred Maximilian (S3) vs Aigis (P3) - P3 PC AGAINST THE ELEMENT SHE'S WEAK AGAINST OFF SOMEONE FASTER THIS IS ENDING SO WELL
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7) - Eileen 2HKOs average and fails to care about Barret's L1 with Copper Flesh shenanigans. She can chip to the safety range that avoids a L2, methinks.
Sania (AtLC) vs Ronnie Bell (S1) - Petro Wind/Divide against -that- MDef, and Ronnie gives up the first turn? Christ.
Light
Starky (CC) vs Mel (S3) - uh.
Snowe Vingerhut (S4) vs Bartre (FE7) - um. Kneejerk is that Snowe eats it to a Killer crit (even with WTD, Bartre's applying pressure just by getting attacked, and Snowe evasion probably sucks anyhow). Bartre sacrifices counters for that, but Snowe damage sucks and Bartre doesn't get doubled anyway. Snowe can only attack in turns Bartre misses, which makes things more dangerous.
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Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1) - Eeeeeh. Alicia blocks ID, then most of Keith's shoddy status can be Cure Condition'd away. She... 4HKOs him as well, so he's spending half the time casting his crappy parasitic healing, which takes a hit from equipping Jiru, and if he's not equipping Jiru, Alicia's equipping a blocker to one of his potentially more dangerous status as well. She just outstalls him, pretty much.
At least on the status healing, Keith is aiming for Silence or Paralysis, which would both stop her from healing status.
For people who respect Gift's ID, he's going for that instead of DBJ (Although even taken halved it's turn 3, so she'd still need to block it!)
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Godlike
Fou-Lu (BoF4) vs Heat (DDS): He doesn't really lose to people slower than him.
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs): Yuri 5HKOs with either form. That's BEFORE Parry, which is a flat 30% chance to avoid physicals, and Chris' evade, which while modest, isn't helping. So Yuri needs anywhere 7 to 10 attacks to kill depending on how much you respect Chris' evade. Chris needs... 3. Yuri is not doubling anywhere near often enough to pull this off.
Cloud of Darkness (FF3) vs Violetta (G3): Blaze Wall hamstrings CoD's offence as well as slowing her down to use Particle Beam. From there, I -think- she can get off enough damage in time.
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7): ITE slashing damage! Gooodbye.
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT): Hexagon Mist manages the 4HKO well enough, so that after Hallation is fatal.
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1): Keith status. Yeah. No. (Alicia can block all of it if you give her multiple blockers, anyway. Not that I do.)
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2): Faster?
Middle
Lin (BoF5) vs Jet Enduro (WA3): JET FACES SOMEONE GOOD!
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7): Should be able to dodge Hammerblow. I think.
Light
Starky (CC) vs Mel (S3): Generally better.
Snowe Vingerhut (S4) vs Bartre (FE7): Uh. Man, is Bartre going to go further than Titania? So wrong.
Melody Vilente (WA3) vs Titania (FE9): Not immuning Poison means that if Titania doesn't kill in three rounds, she loses 60% of her HP and gets hit by Eliminate Scanner three times. That's horrible death. Average damage fails to 3HKO Melody, and Titania's a hair below. Alternatively she can use Hand Axes and double her attack opportunity... but Hand Axe really suffers against the barrier, so she does less than half the damage per hit.
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Godlike
Fou-Lu (BoF4) vs Heat (DDS)
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7)
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT)
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1): mmhm, multiple blockers.
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2): Claude fails to OHKO then his weapon gets snapped.
Middle
Lin (BoF5) vs Jet Enduro (WA3)
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7)
Sania (AtLC) vs Ronnie Bell (S1)
Light
Oulan (S2) vs Tink (Disgaea 2)
Starky (CC) vs Mel (S3)
Melody Vilente (WA3) vs Titania (FE9)
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Dhyer: P2 speed doesn't matter all too much unless you're Ulala and can actually pull off lapping people. Not giving the speed boosts... makes Maya a bit faster, comparatively, but not enough for a speed edge and probably not enough to catch up to Hallec.
Hallec (S3) vs. Maya (P2)
Okay. I'm presenting the argument -for- Maya here. Keep in mind I'm likely voting Hallec, myself (although this depends on testing of P2 status rates). Why am I doing this? Well, I know Maya, I like Maya, I like breaking her matches down.
1) You allow all Persona of the cast's starting Arcana. For Maya, that's Moon.
In this case, Maya pulls out Pariker, who voids all physicals except Sword in-game.
Counter-argument here: That's... not that much: Shot/Throw/Strike/Attack. Arguably axes would bypass, same as swords.
Counter-counter-argument: Attack subset encompasses a whole shitload of attack types, and Sword attacks are pretty much all sword-named or sword-themed.
Other options in this vein: Tsukiyomi using Trial of Darkness (High damage + ID. I need to test and see if magic does boost status chance, if it does this is turn 1 since it's 50% out of the jump, and allowing it to hit MDef would make it turn 1 anyway.)
My opinion: Unsure, honestly. >_> Tsukiyomi in some ways has the better argument.
2) You allow all Persona the cast have unique BEST compats with. For Maya, that's Moon, Hermit, and Magician. (Temperance, Fool, and the two Minor Arcana she gets are all shared, so.)
In this case, Rangda is a complete spoiler, no two ways about it. No other real options exist outside of him in these two categories except maaaaaaaybe a start with Genbu or other Hermit phys tanks and defense-buffing, but that's iffy as well.
3) You use 3.28x or higher as durability (yes, I mathed this out).
This reduces Hallec's damage to a bare 3HKO, which is all Maya needs.
Opinion: This is silly. >_>
4) You use her P2:IS form, which gets Tetrakarn on Artemis.
Opinion: If you can vote on it, well. (blah blah most people don't vote on unranked forms reminder since I'll get yelled at otherwise, love you all ^_^)
5) You allow P2 status to run off MATK/hit MDEF.
Opinion: The former's possible; might make her status, incuding ID, far more viable. However, running off MATK... I'll say right now that I don't think OK's numbers are right, in-topic; but if MATK does boost accuracy, then they would be more precise than mine, in which case a Maia Custom rush might actually work, especially leading off with Sleep -> ID'ing him out.
(For the record, I'm kinda against OK's numbers due to my own, admittedly sketchy, testing.)
6) You allow the ultimate weapon rumors.
This is the other logical way Maya can win. However, giving this to her... I can't see. Why? You can only have one Legendary Handgun. There are two people who can use it - Katsuya and Maya. Granted, Maya's the more logical user since the weapon also boosts SAtk, and Katsuya can get a pretty impressive weapon that's just a few points behind ingame and has a useful status for him (need to pull that up, it should be Silence). Still, it's got legality issues.
That aside, allow it and she has about 75% ID off her physical.
7) Alternate interp that I can't really gauge.
Opinion: Would need to be pretty good to allow the win.
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Godlike
Fou-Lu (BoF4) vs Heat (DDS) - Pain.
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs) - Need to math this out, leaning Chris.
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT)
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2) - Unless you can re-equip in battle, in which case I'd allow this to work. Harsher interp on equip breaking, yeah.
Middle
Lin (BoF5) vs Jet Enduro (WA3)
Fred Maximilian (S3) vs Aigis (P3) - Was about to vote Aigis since all I remembered from Fred was competent physicals, but right, he starts with that Lightning Sword rune.
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7)
Light
Starky (CC) vs Mel (S3) - ................
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Godlike
Fou-Lu (BoF4) vs Heat (DDS)
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)- Don't think I see Chris managing to outslug her way past Yuri getting the first two attacks in.
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7)- See Sephy's writeup. This is not close.
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT)
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1)- ID. Even ignoring that, see what Dhyer said. Rotating status+draining works well enough for me here.
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2)- Go first, smash. Dyce fails to 2HKO with Holy Explosion+Weapon break as well- and while losing the ES hurts, it doesn't completely kill his damage. Even a Mirror Slice/Ripper Blast at one third the normal power is probably going to be fatal to Dyce .
Middle
Lin (BoF5) vs Jet Enduro (WA3)- Lin's lack of speed makes this slightly interesting, but no.
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7)- Don't scale FF7 limit gain. Splat.
Sania (AtLC) vs Ronnie Bell (S1)- Ronnie may OHKO, but she won't get the chance to do anything with that.
Light
Oulan (S2) vs Tink (Disgaea 2-)- Oulan's physically tougher and has better offense. Not really close.
Starky (CC) vs Mel (S3)- Space Alien of Doom. *Zaps Elfboy* More to the point, thinking his offense should trump here. Mel's just unremarkable in the DL without a Lightning Rune.
Snowe Vingerhut (S4) vs Bartre (FE7)- Snowe really needs a double here. He's not getting it.
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Oh my God, a match I can vote on =O there'd be two if only I had finished Chrono Trigger X_x
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7)
And it's also a no brainer. Copper Flesh for damage immunity, Voice of the Earth for chipping damage, and Earthquake for a finisher. Eileen doesn't even break a sweat ^_^; But yay for a non-Seph FF7 character winning a match?
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Godlike
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs): I guess? Yuri should still be able to use physical abilities under SL though, since they are very clearly NOT taken away by Silent Lake (see Chris' own Phoenix rune).
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT): See NEB?
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1): Multiple blockers.
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2): Obliterates him in a single shot (for Claude to not OHKO you'd have to what, not scale him at all? Screw that). Also, Claude can switch weapons on the fly in-game as a free action, I think. Since we let FE do that, I'm more and more inclined to let duelers carry that ability into the DL. Sorta like how they can have their homegame's defend command.
Middle
Lin (BoF5) vs Jet Enduro (WA3): Status works, I guess.
Fred Maximilian (S3) vs Aigis (P3): This is why Aigis is in Middle and not Heavy.
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7): Chip around a fatal limit with Earthquake works, I think.
Sania (AtLC) vs Ronnie Bell (S1): Petro Wind or Paralysis Wind.
Light
Oulan (S2) vs Tink (Disgaea 2)
Starky (CC) vs Mel (S3): Mel 3HKOs.
Snowe Vingerhut (S4) vs Bartre (FE7): Gives up the first turn but should still win with the healing.
Melody Vilente (WA3) vs Titania (FE9): Whatever.
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Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2): Obliterates him in a single shot (for Claude to not OHKO you'd have to what, not scale him at all? Screw that). Also, Claude can switch weapons on the fly in-game as a free action, I think. Since we let FE do that, I'm more and more inclined to let duelers carry that ability into the DL. Sorta like how they can have their homegame's defend command.
Dyce does have defense up, which helps some against Claude. And if you can switch weapons in battle in SO2, it's news to me.
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Still won't take more than a round of beating to take him down, I should think.
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Dhyer: P2 speed doesn't matter all too much unless you're Ulala and can actually pull off lapping people. Not giving the speed boosts... makes Maya a bit faster, comparatively, but not enough for a speed edge and probably not enough to catch up to Hallec.
Well, I was completely forgetting that P2 speed isn't completely TB, but she's like 0.7 or some SD above average with Maia Custom, while Hallec is about 1 SD above average. So, speed wise, she's really not that far off...but maybe P2 speed is worthless than that. I can't remember too well.
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Still won't take more than a round of beating to take him down, I should think.
Yeah, a 'your FFT boss HP respect will vary' comment goes here. Claude's getting two shots at the worst, so yeah.
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Dhyer: P2 speed doesn't matter all too much unless you're Ulala and can actually pull off lapping people. Not giving the speed boosts... makes Maya a bit faster, comparatively, but not enough for a speed edge and probably not enough to catch up to Hallec.
Well, I was completely forgetting that P2 speed isn't completely TB, but she's like 0.7 or some SD above average with Maia Custom, while Hallec is about 1 SD above average. So, speed wise, she's really not that far off...but maybe P2 speed is worthless than that. I can't remember too well.
P2 speed is semi-randomized but definitely not pure TB.
This being said, if you don't factor speed boosts into averages... Ulala's effective speed for averages drops sharply, thinking on it more (she raises Vit and Agi equally without Persona influence). So it's possible she out-edges? Still.
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Notable matches:
Chris vs. Yuri: Actually mathed this one out myself. Chris's defense is 50 points above average in a subtraction-based system; average damage to average HP is 140 Suiko3 HP, so she only takes 90 HP damage. Which does barely 5HKO her ~440 HP. Since Chris is winning in three turns, there's no way Yuri is fast enough to take the minimum 6 turns he'd need to stand a chance at winning (though he does manage 5, but yeah, he's going to miss at least once). If you convert subtraction systems to percentage based systems based off in-game results, Chris is even better off, as in-game she's pretty much physical immune by the end.
Patriarch vs. Sephy: Uh what is this Sephiroth physical hype coming from? Average HP at FF7 endgame should absolutely be 9999, so his physical isn't that great, and while the Patriarch's defense is bad, he's got good HP. On the other hand, the Patriarch's Slow is nulled, and he may be stuck using the Phase Transfer Cannon if Sephiroth flies (since I think his backup non-physical stuff sucked / didn't exist). I suspect Sephiroth still wins off Fly+Wall, but this one seems fairly close, actually.
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Notable matches:
Chris vs. Yuri: Actually mathed this one out myself. Chris's defense is 50 points above average in a subtraction-based system; average damage to average HP is 140 Suiko3 HP, so she only takes 90 HP damage. Which does barely 5HKO her ~440 HP. Since Chris is winning in three turns, there's no way Yuri is fast enough to take the minimum 6 turns he'd need to stand a chance at winning (though he does manage 5, but yeah, he's going to miss at least once). If you convert subtraction systems to percentage based systems based off in-game results, Chris is even better off, as in-game she's pretty much physical immune by the end.
I think most people convert from subtraction to division not by in-game results, but by what they do to 40% PCHP attacks. So Chris would take 90/140 = 64% damage from all non-ITD physical attacks.
Though yeah if you go by in-game, I think even WA2 defense starts being worth a crap. >.>
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Average HP at FF7 endgame should absolutely be 9999
So you have three maxed HP Pluses per character? Fuck that. You're welcome to the interp if you want, just don't act all surprised when not many others "absolutely" hold it.
Don't think I see Chris managing to outslug her way past Yuri getting the first two attacks in.
You speak as if that's not two of the 7+ he needs. Chris kills in three, so he needs to get 7 turns before Chris gets 4. He can have fun with that; that's impossible even with his SH2 SR speed, and he's slower in SH1.
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So you have three maxed HP Pluses per character? Fuck that. You're welcome to the interp if you want, just don't act all surprised when not many others "absolutely" hold it.
Isn't this actually pretty reasonable? Start with 3 when they become storebought, and they should be mastered by endgame. Not that I remember much about FF7 materia AP gains and slots and whatnot. I just remember getting a healthy lot more use out of the things then "Barely cancels out the penalty for using other materia". I certainly didn't have 9999 HP on all my characters.
Doesn't addding more HP+ materia's past 150% or 200% have no effect anyway?
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Dark Holy Elf: Unless I'm wildly mistaken, you don't need 3 maxed HP+ materias to get 9999 HP? I'm going off my first playthrough, in which I *missed* the Materia shop in Cosmo Canyon (where you can get HP+ materias early and start leveling them then) and thus only got them on Disc 2, did no optional extra stuff (that... jungley area near Cosmo Canyon that gives you all sorts of good stuff, Gold Saucer stuff, etc.), and charged the Northern Crater fast enough that Sephiroth's first form asked only for one party... and am reasonably confident that all my characters had 9000+ HP, yes. HP+ materia is storebought and awesome, and you have plenty of slots by Disc 2 and Disc 3. I think I had one maxed HP+ per character, a second that was either maxed or near maxed, and since I had some wimpy HP+ materias budded off from the mastered one lying around, I think I tossed those on any characters who still weren't at 9999. So you shouldn't need 3 mastered ones, but 2 mastered/near-mastered + 1 small one for a 110% boost or thereabouts should be enough.
Anyway, at least among my circle of friends who played FF7, there was general agreement that HP+ materia broke the game and was pretty much standard operating procedure, so yeah, I'd see 9000 HP+ as pretty standard for non-challenge playthroughs. Of course, I found out much later that some people intentionally don't use HP+ materia to build limits faster (on said first playthrough, only Yuffie had a level 3 limit, Cloud & the others were still at level 2), but that's entirely a limit-levelling a strategy that shouldn't really apply by the time of the final boss.
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So you have three maxed HP Pluses per character? Fuck that. You're welcome to the interp if you want, just don't act all surprised when not many others "absolutely" hold it.
Isn't this actually pretty reasonable? Start with 3 when they become storebought, and they should be mastered by endgame. Not that I remember much about FF7 materia AP gains and slots and whatnot. I just remember getting a healthy lot more use out of the things then "Barely cancels out the penalty for using other materia". I certainly didn't have 9999 HP on all my characters.
Doesn't addding more HP+ materia's past 150% or 200% have no effect anyway?
HP+ Materia are pretty damn expensive at the time they become storebought. 8000 gil a pop, you'd be lucky if you can afford one. Not to mention, you'd need 6 minimum to get an average of 9999 on all characters. You can probably start buying them in droves come Disk 2, but then you're not going to be maxing them unless you go out grinding for a bit.
EDIT: Well, I won't counter what you say, Snow, but I don't remember getting such massive amounts of AP between Disk 2 and 3. Probably should replay FF7 sometime, though. ;p
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ThePiggyman: Yeah, but what else are you spending your money on? I'll grant that if you're trying to develop all 8 characters and are buying them all their latest arms and armor every shop, you'll be money-dry, but I generally only maintained 3-4 characters at a time. And you only need to buy 6 HP Plus Materias - 2 for each character - and you should be set, and the game I think occasionally hands you one for free.
Edit: And as for AP, well, that's where the magic of double and triple-growth weapons come in, I suspect. Not that I exclusively used them, but since they generally don't have linked slots, and HP-plus doesn't care if it's linked, HP+ often got a slot in those anyway.
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Yeah, it caps at 200% (you need the third to cancel out your magic/summons). This means that you need 5000 base HP to even reach 9999, which is the Level 60 average (meaning half the cast is below... Vincent by a large margin I'd think).
And yeah, you need a huge total bonus to get that high, seeing as the high-end magic/summons (which I'd definitely assume, or the damage average takes a substantial hit) take off what, 10% each?
It's pretty obvious people play FF7 pretty differently; I don't know many people who play the way Snowfire's friends do, in fact I've seen quite a few people who don't use the materia at all (I generally didn't, because (a) FF7 enemies who aren't Sephiroth or a few final dungeon guys are bad on damage so you don't really need it, (b) limit levelling is cool, (c) levelling materia for Master Materia is cool, and purple doesn't help you there. Most of my "non-level" slots I prioritised for things that seemed more valuable than HP Plus - All, Mega All, Double Cut, Added Cut, Steal As Well, MP Turbo).
I mean, really, if I wanted tankishness I'd just toss a Tranquilizer on my PCs, hi there free 33% damage reduction. Guess I wouldn't be that opposed to holding that against Seph, come to think of it, though. <_<
ANYWAY, the point is that FF7 has a huge, huge reasonable range for HPs. I don't really care about what you choose to use within that range, I just resent anyone telling me their way is absolutely right.
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Godlike
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7) - I need to play CC and force Sephiroth to that form, clearly~
Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT) - Zzzz
Middle
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7) - hax rune~
Sania (AtLC) vs Ronnie Bell (S1)
Light
Oulan (S2) vs Tink (Disgaea 2)
Snowe Vingerhut (S4) vs Bartre (FE7) - Snow wishes his BoI wasn't Ko level useless~
Melody Vilente (WA3) vs Titania (FE9) - Whatever~
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Oh, wait, that's what this was about? Er. Well, to clarify, obviously - just like, uh, every other debate in the RPGDL - "absolutely" was a random adjective I threw in without all that much thinking and only means "absolutely in my not-so-humble opinion which others are under no obligation to share." To my knowledge nobody tries to boss around how others vote, but plenty try to convince others. Which is the point. Yeesh, I hope that nobody assumes that to be true, ever.
Anyway, back to the debate. Well, you can justify a lot by argument A, that "Game X's enemies fail, so you can get away with this strategy." Sure, there are various cute completionist advantages you can get by not using HP+ materia, but you're still handicapping yourself overall; faster limit gain isn't as good as "can't really die." I did replay FF7 without HP+ or MP+ materia, and Disc 2 and 3 were considerably more difficult, since enemy damage suddenly didn't as fail as hard. This is salutary for game balance and enjoyment, but, well, still not a "standard" playthrough in my book.
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Godlike
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs) - SH1 isn't even a fight.
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7) - Ahahaha
Middle
Fred Maximilian (S3) vs Aigis (P3) - FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. Lightning. Kill it.
Light
Melody Vilente (WA3) vs Titania (FE9) - Wow.
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Anyway, back to the debate. Well, you can justify a lot by argument A, that "Game X's enemies fail, so you can get away with this strategy." Sure, there are various cute completionist advantages you can get by not using HP+ materia, but you're still handicapping yourself overall;
That's the argument, really: using tons of HP+ materias is less efficient than not and using them for more effective stuff for your slots, because enemies failing at damage = you don't care as much about your durability, and limit building being based off mHP shaving, you get limits more often by staying with lower HP. Since enemies can't punish you for it properly, it's more efficient and effective than carrying more HP+. I can certainly see using one capped HP+ materia, but more than that is very excessive and gets in the way of more interesting and powerful setups.
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Heavy
Queen Zeal (CT) vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT)
Easy.
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1)
No blockers.
Dycedarg Beoulve (FFT) vs Claude Kenni (SO2)
Yeah, pretty sure.
Middle
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7)
Things I Will Never Do: Eat Limburger cheese, play more Suikoden games, hype FF7 limits above level 1.
Sania (AtLC) vs Ronnie Bell (S1)
Woo, status.
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I'd see 9000 HP+ as pretty standard for non-challenge playthroughs.
...what.
*looks at his level 55 file standard file where Cloud has 5500 HP* And I considered this to be way too much HP.
Building upon Snow's point, there's a lot more better set ups than loading people down with 4MHPs. Personally, I find something like putting Max'd Cover on a backrow person + Long Range Materia (if needed) and elemental armlets to be far more effective. Saves the entire team a huge amount of materia slots and probably accomplished more or less what you need. Throw in Sadness on that person and you've got a team that's already tough to take down.
Not that you EVER need 5500 HP anyway. So 9000 HP not being the norm? Not surprising to me >_>.
Oh right, matches...
Godlike
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7) - Space pope against physicals. Let alone the slashing kind. This is not close.
Heavy
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1) - Block ID. I don't respect enough of Keith's other status. Unfortunately for him.
Light
Melody Vilente (WA3) vs Titania (FE9) - Inclined to believe NEB on this one. I don't feel like thinking on it anyhow. I'll attribute it to WA POIZN not failing
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As Elfboy kinda sorta said, if you forgo HP+ materias in favor of defensive boosting setups that do not involve HP boosting, you should still hold that against Sephiroth, and see his raw damage values as lower than the stat topic says. A lot lower, depending on the setup. Or if you ignored durability buffing entirely and optimized for offense, you should see him as quite fragile.
Anyway, even taken against 9999 HP Sephiroth still has about double Patriarch's damage, taking the stat topic numbers at face value. And he's a little faster (or a lot faster if you respect ATB speed more than I do), and has similar durability when you consider Patriarch's defense, and has wall.
Patriarch's in godlike because of how effective he is against PCs and mages. Against a curse-immune fighter he's a heavy. Sephiroth, even if you see him as overrated as I do (I used lots of HP+), can beat heavies easily.
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Hmm. Well, I'm standing by my theory that HP+ materia is probably the simplest way to break the game. But yeah, if you didn't use it because you were using super awesome other setups, that should probably be held against Sephy then as per Monkeyfinger, which would give him HP problems.
Strangely enough I actually thought(?) I had more Sephiroth respect than most prior to this conversation, as I certainly don't hold a lot of the brutal damage-dealing and twinked out setups possible in FF7 against him due to the ultimate weapons and fancy materia being at least somewhat obscure (while I *do* assess penalties to bosses of games which have extremely broken PCs that might cause bosses to seem tougher than they "should"), so I have a reasonable amount of Sephiroth HP respect. I do hold HP+ against him, because it's easily storebought and seems to be pretty intended for even casual players to use. HP is like money: more is almost always better, and this pretty much holds true in FF7. If nothing else, more than 5000 HP is good for Sephiroth, as this discussion shows!
Anyway. Now that I actually look... standing by my kneejerk to Sephiroth anyway. I have pretty high XS2 boss respect (they all took for freakin' ever for me to kill, Patriarch has two forms chained, etc.), so the Patriarch's HP is pretty awesome... but yeah, Sephiroth has Wall, and his physical damage is still decent (if not OHKO). So Sephiroth probably wins the slugfest anyway. To make it more of a slaughter, I think Patriarch's attacks were in fact all close range aside from the Phase Transfer cannon after all, so Wall would almost totally kill his offense regardless.
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Godlike -
Patriarch Sergius (XS2) vs Sephiroth (FF7)
Heavy -
Alicia (VP2) vs Keith Valentine (SH1): I allow multiple accessory slots to be utilised.
Middle
Eileen (S1) vs Barret Wallace (FF7)
Start w/th FLB = Mind Blow?
(can't read previous page due to being blocked by library PC)
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I don't think Mindblow would help him much (Eileen still gets off one turn with spells due to being faster). If you let him start with a full limit bar for any level, though, Hammerblow does indeed win it for him.
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Quick notes: Maya's status options on weapons are as follows:
85% chance of ID (rather questionable legality, the only real way for Maya to have it is if you don't consider her unranked counterparts)
~60% chance of Shock (opponent loses next turn)
~35% chance of Freeze (Same)
As such, status weapons aren't likely the way to go here.
I'm getting really bizarre ID tests thus far, going to work on it further and provide notes.