The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Jo'ou Ranbu on September 20, 2008, 05:26:35 AM
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa)
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9)
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8)
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3)
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs)
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8)
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2)
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH)
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP)
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS)
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE)
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS)
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA)
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa)- I voted this way during Red/Purim. Stupid Saga headaches.
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9)
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8)- Defense should just see her through.
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3)- ITE physical.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs)- Not a ton of Legretta HP respect. Unless I'm mistaken Edwin can buff through and burn through her HP.
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8)
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2)- Beat is turn one ID, Millenia doesn't have MDef or ID protection.
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH)- Splat.
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS)- Most likely.
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE)- Ras needs to downgrade.
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)- Miklotov has defense if nothing else.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA)- I voted Asch into puny for a reason.
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Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5) - Not even Castle form saves him I think. >_>
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8) - Honestly, this is sort of a cool match (Emily 3HKOs and goes first, Empyrea gets outslugged if she goes for the magic), but Emily needs to dodge three attacks out of four, since Empy 2HKOs solidly. Her evade ain't that good.
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8) - Free win.
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Beat!
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH) - I guess he 2HKOs. ._.
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - Immunes ID and shreds Arche with Rapid Attack => AB rush. She needs to OHKO to have a prayer.
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS) - Kain in Middle+Kain against fastish healer with Slow+Kain against someone with Defend. Yeah, that's going over well, and he only needs one factor out of those three to lose. All three are piled up. >_>
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE) - I got to mid-disc 2 in ToE, and I feel confident enough about voting on this. Ras's 10HKO damage ain't killing anyone ever before he dies off that HP. And PC form gets outslugged all the same, Reinbach takes hits well enough in spite of the HP.
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM) - EDIT: wait, the Rune attached to Mik's blade isn't Lightning. Um yeah, Randi wins it out.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Rufus vs. anyone.
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5): Yeah.
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa)
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9)
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8): Defence against crits... I dunno. Test of exactly where I see Emily's evade, too.
Heavy
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2): Thwack.
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH): Nergal has about 75% average pdur to me. I THINK Diego does enough damage to 2HKO that. Might be wrong, but he does beat all the mages on damage, and only loses to Ash by a notable margin...
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS): Not Kain in Middle. Seriously, slows him down, heals, etc.
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM): Faster. In practice they're not horribly different otherwise.
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS): May vote Tellah, I've arguably played enough ToS for this.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): Har.
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA): Oh god. Anyway, gets off an MA.
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)- Myria.
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa)- Ellen. Har har.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8)- Close match either way
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3)- Galcian
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs)- Legretta. Think this was the end result of how tearing it down in chat went. Edwin's damage isn't anything special/no solid anti phyiscal damage buff
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8)- Marisa
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2)- Cristo
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH)- Nergal
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP)- Jude
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS)- MOMO
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE)- Rassius. Boss form crushes. Boss form is also last form!
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)- Randi, I guess?
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS)- Unsure
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)- Chisato
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA)- Asch. Boss form does this easily. Not something enough said.
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5): Castle form could beat Myria3! Uh...
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9): See him doubling everything, so splat. Even though a couple wind shots do come somewhat close to doing Tibarn in.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8): If this is close based on the assumption that Emily 3HKOs, then it is an easy win for Empyrea to me.
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3)
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs): 2HKOs, maybe OHKOs with Searing sorrow (AoE physical tech, ~65% PCHP damage, available at 75% HP or lower.) Legretta can't do much before that but Edwin's a defensive buffer, he doesn't have anything in the way of augmenting his damage besides... summons. There's a -chance- that they're good enough to blow through Legretta's HP if you really disrespect it and they hit harder than I remember. But I doubt it. We need to fetch the old, complete BG2 topic though.
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2)
Middle
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS): Apparently MOMO sucks ass or something unless you take XS3? I don't remember too well.
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS): Thinking instant double, but close.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA)
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8)
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3)
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs)- No, not buying summons burning through good boss HP.
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8)- Tales fighter vs. FE. Eats evasion and counter.
Middle
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP)- Jude 2HKOs with AB. Arche OHKOs with Meteor Swarm, probably. Problem is, Jude's going first with Rapid Attack and AB.
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS)- Unless memory serves me wrong, MOMO was incredibly broken in part 2, while Kain is.....Kain.
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE)- Meh. Rass' boss form has nothing but durability, Rass' PC form has nothing RESEMBLING durability. Schtolthenheim at least had that Red Rose Rune(Or something).
Light
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS)- Tellah HP disrespect, kicking in.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA)- ASCH WINNING?
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Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS): Apparently MOMO sucks ass or something unless you take XS3? I don't remember too well.
XS1 MOMO has perfect accuracy Slow and Confuse alongside 50% healing off solid speed. This is hardly what I'd call "suckass". It may not be much, but Slow+healing alone own Kain hard. She is frail, but it doesn't matter. Kain juust misses the 2HKO under the most generous interp to his Jump damage (assuming she can't defend) and is just boned otherwise.
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa)
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9)- Don't see Wind Shot as hitting weakness. It's a glorified physical.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8)
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3)
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs)
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8]
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2)
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH)
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP)
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS)
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE)
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS)
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA)- Six Tales characters in one week. They are invading, making my voting rights all really damn bad~
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Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5) - Regen hype! *is shot*
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa) - No vote.
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9) - uhh... not sure what to make of Wind Shot. Leaning towards allowing it to hit weakness, but I could see Tibarn as doubling.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8) - champ. obviously.
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3) - slaughters.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs) - can't actually vote, but if I could, Legretta MA hype would go here.
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8) - Or, Mary's an amnesiac and -forgot- how to lose. No, doesn't work as well as Dekar...
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - EDIT: Thought she blocked ID? Whatever, don't care enough to check.
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH) - No VH, but good luck to the last of VH duelists.
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - Assault Buster's accuracy is pretty horrible, I'm calling it out against the innately-hard-to-hit ToP character. Jude 2HKOs, Arche 2HKOs at worst against Jude's horrible MDEF, Jude whiffs AB. EDIT: Well, I just finished WA4 and while I still think AB has accuracy issues, I'm completely sold on Jude's speed in general. Jude gets more than enough turns before Arche gets her second turn. Still an interesting match. But but TotW:Radiant Mythology form! *is shot* Okay, I'll stop.
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS) - Gah, downgrade Kain.
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE) - don't remember either character enough to be sure, and don't really care?
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM) - This is... close.
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - Hey, another fun match, we have less failure Lights than usual this week.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Here too.
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA) - Well... Almost.
-Djinn
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5) - Yeah you know my deal here~
Heavy
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8) - TALES IN HEAVY
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - He'll lose anyway.
Middle
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - Broom evasion hype but wait what
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS) - lol kain
Light
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - FF4DS~
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5) - Thinking. Castle form has a decent chance to me, no matter what form Myria chooses.
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa) - T260G can't OHKO first turn. Battle over.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8) - Ahahahahahahaha oh gods.
Heavy
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Bounce? ID? Either one works.
Middle
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - No clue. Abstain for now.
Light
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Aaaahahahahaa DIE RUFUS, DIEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9)- Don't see Wind Shot as hitting weakness. It's a glorified physical.
Doesn't matter here. Rashidi should still kill before Tibarn gets two actions (FE9's not doubling or even especially close) and Tibarn's offense isn't much without that on paper.
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Spellbinding Eye works.
It would if she could block ID and wasn't slow!
Edit: Monkey, I have the archived old BG2 topic, hit me up on IRC or AIM tonight for it.
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And Rashidi's durability isn't much. <_< He survives on his nuke damage, he gets part of his nuke damaged unnuked, he dies.
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Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - Assault Buster's accuracy is pretty horrible, I'm calling it out against the innately-hard-to-hit ToP character. Jude 2HKOs, Arche 2HKOs at worst against Jude's horrible MDEF, Jude whiffs AB.
A) Assault Buster's accuracy isn't THAT horrible (81%).
B) Assault Buster hits MULTIPLE TIMES, so it does not whiff. It just hits less times per attack than normal.
Also, best strategy would be:
Jude (Attack) -> Arche (something) -> Jude (Assault Buster) -> Jude (Assault Buster). Since the first Assault Buster is boosted by Rapid Attack, this is more than enough to kill her off.
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Well, assuming you don't factor recharge times into the average like me (Might still be close to killing her to me anyways)!
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Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3): PC form eats Eternum, boss form gets OHKOd.
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8)
Middle
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS): XS1 is tricky, XS2 outslugs with vastly better damage.
Light
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS): OK, checked Tellah's HP, about half PC, the def is below half PC. So he probably dies to a single combo, I now see him at like... 45% Pdurability. If that. Uh. Yikes.
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5): One sided fight. No, Human form doesn't win this, don't try to delude into thinking that's the case. He doesn't really gain much damage until halfway into the fight, and she already has a massive durability advantage.
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa): Cosmic Rave hits through her defenses, given it was clearly meant to be some sort of weird Nontyped attack.
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9): Wind Shot hits weakness and debatably gets around Cancel since its MT. Furthermore, Tibarn isn't doubling which means his offense is effectively halved. Much as I hate Rashidi, think he holds the advantage in this fight.
AS A REMINDER, FE9 Tibarn is NOT this almighty speedster. In fact, he's the SLOWEST of the 3 Royals, beaten by Giffca by 1 point. He's barely faster than Ike, in fact. FE10 Tibarn, admittedly, is about as fast as hyped...if not more...yay 11 points above average speed!
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8): Emily needs Criticals to come in at the right times and such, don't think I see that happening.
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3): Sarah against high class physicals.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs): Need to look up Edwin *shakes fist at BG*
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8): Mary is happy I only take Weapon Triangle from the offensive standpoint (as in, Maria gets +1 Attack and +15 Hit, but opponent doesn't get penalties)...she's not happy in how Marisa kicks her ass anyway.
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2): Pretty sure Cristo can't stop Millenia with Stop Spell since Spellbinding Eye ig-...wait, right, Cristo had Instant Death and Millenia's magic defense is atrocious, NEVERMIND.
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH): Counters offset the doubles, and pretty sure Diego doesn't 2HKO which he needs to.
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP): Immunes Instant Death, goes first, and 2HKOs. Arche needs to OHKO...and there's not a single average that'd let her do that.
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS): You know, pretty sure MOMO doesn't need any status sort of help to win this fight. Evasion and Healing already screws Kain as is, and she can use Ether damage to get around his defenses. Admittedly, Slow is just icing for this match.
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE): Uh, yeah, Rassius just gets his ass kicked here, yay 10HKO damage and all that.
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM): Go match of blandness?
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS): Tellah has status and such, which should murder Colette. If nothing else, Toad or Break or Stop or whatever.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): Rufus.
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA): Evil Gaia.
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According to the Stat topic, Castle Exdeath has Flame, which is 25% Max HP damage, and it works even on foes immune to instant death. Not sure if that's enough, but Myria does have a lot of HP.
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General consensus is that people don't allow Gravity-type moves to hit bosses unless the game has empirical evidence that the boss in question can be hit by them. So, Flame would be seen as useless in that match on average.
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Well, since it's unimmunable mHP-based damage, I'd see it doing 0.25 PCHP damage to a boss. Which is to say it's terrible damage. But I'd see it working!
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Oh, true, Absorb clause there.
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Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - Assault Buster's accuracy is pretty horrible, I'm calling it out against the innately-hard-to-hit ToP character. Jude 2HKOs, Arche 2HKOs at worst against Jude's horrible MDEF, Jude whiffs AB.
I'm really just beating on a dead horse here, since Tal's covered most of the important stuff.
But okay, let's say AB WAS inaccurate and suffers an accuracy penalty because Arche flies. In this case, Jude will use Physical + 2x Silver Launcher. I'm assuming Arche as average speed. Any movement speed advantage she has is probably killed by being casting spells (and therefore, slower).
Turn order then is:
Jude --> Arche --> Jude --> Arche --> Jude --> Jude
Jude goes first, attacks. This physical NORMALLY gets a flyer bonus in damage. But for this argument, I'll assume it doesn't. So 4800 damage dealt. It doesn't suffer accuracy penalties. After this physical, Jude's next turn is sped up by 56% or so. Turn order now looks like this:
Arche --> Jude --> Jude.
Arche deals 5500 damage to a 5205 average or so. This is enough to 2HKO Jude. Since Jude is blocking ID, this is her best option. She goes, and does that. Now Jude gets his Double. He uses Silver Launcher x2, each doing around 6800 a piece. He's fast enough from the spillover speed that he will keep his 3-2 on Arche, as he's 1.39 average out of the gate.
Jude's cumulative damage is 18400. The Kill point for WA4 is around 19000 or so. So yes, Jude JUST misses the kill. He deals 0.927 or so. BUT, Arche's durability compared to the rest of her cast comes into play. She has 5280 HP to a 5900 average. This translates to 0.894 for durability. Arche has EXACTLY average Pdef.
Unless She's OHKOing, she's not winning. Period. And I checked the damage averages for that too. She doesn't even come close.
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Yeah, the only way Arche might even have a chance of OHKOing is if you totally ignored everything in the second half of Morlia period (so Arche would lose her ID). Chester would take a big hit, Cress would be forced to go from Excalibur to the Eternal Sword, and Klarth would lose like ~25% in going from Gremlin to Origin. Granted, I doubt even this pushes her to OHKOing.
Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9): Doubles.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8): Echoing everyone else, really.
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3)
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8): Sexy swordmaster. Come on, what does Mary have against THAT? (and then there are those doubles and stuff)
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH): Doubles, 2HKOs.
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP): Eh-yep.
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS): What everyone else said. Scar screams in rage.
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE): I have no idea.
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM): If NEB is voting for Randi I'll take that at face value!
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS): Colette needed to pull a page out of Rita/Estelle's book and get some magic immunity.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA): You're killing me.
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Godlike
Tyr (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5) - Exy, I think? Tyr is...form 1, if it's the girl, loses durability but gains some damage, hydra is the opposite. I think Exdeath wins against those. Tyr 3 is...closer, but he still takes it. Granted, form-chain from final Exdeath into Neo-Exdeath helps a lot.
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa) - Ellen. Physi-wall - T620g hs no attacks that break that, unless Cosmic Rave is considered a Light attack and Light is considered dark by the game because SaGa attacks always hit the weakest resistance?!
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9) - Tibarn. FE10 form smashes. Don't see Wind Shot as wind - the element doesn't exist in OB, it's just a name. The attack is physical for all intents and purposes. Pavise with speed and Tear is more than enough to beat out Rashidi. Not much durability to his name at all.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8) - Empyrea. Get out of Godlike, Emily.
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3) - Galcian. God damnit, Galcian...get killed next match.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs) - Legretta. Think good AoE is more than enough here.
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8) - Marisa.
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mmm...do not remember Beat being that good. Not something above 50%, really. And if it's not better than that, he really does lose here.
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH) - Nergal. Nukifies.
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - Jude. Arche flies, and Assault Buster is less accurate against fliers. So Jude does lose some of it's punch there. However, damage bonus from his normal physical makes that not matter.
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS) - MOMO. XS3 form or XS1 form...or XS2 form. Well, maybe not XS2, but...all other forms win this.
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE) - Rassius. Defense and not total fail damage.
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM) - Randi. Charge up for a 1-shot.
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - Tellah. ...how odd.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Chisato.
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA) - ...damnit. Asch is a Heavy. Poor EVIL GAIA finally losing to somehow it SHOULD lose to *grumbles about Sheena*
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa)
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9) - Bleh.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8) - Uhuh.
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3) - Can't vote.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs) - *nodnods* Don't see the summons getting through Legretta's HP that all fast.
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8) - Uh, what?
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mhm.
Middle
Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH) - :/ I recall Diego having some pretty decent damage (I only remember Ash beating him in damage definitely, at least). I can at least see him doubling, and 2HKOs, surviving one of Nergal's counters at least.
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - Boom. Hitting fliers with a physical knocks them down, so...
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS)
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE) - Ehhh, what do I know? That Rassius has pathetic damage and such. I think the defense isn't enough for this one...
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - Tears through with status and other funny magic tricks.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - ...
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA) - ;_________; EVIL GAIAAAAAAAAAA ;____________;
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Though, if you use Flame yourself by Catching a BioSoldier with a Trainer, and then releasing it against any boss, it'll do a quarter of their max hp in damage (though it caps at 9999).
Or is the reason it's pitiful damage because it will only do 0.25XPCHP in game? I'm not sure exactly.
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Though, if you use Flame yourself by Catching a BioSoldier with a Trainer, and then releasing it against any boss, it'll do a quarter of their max hp in damage (though it caps at 9999).
Or is the reason it's pitiful damage because it will only do 0.25XPCHP in game? I'm not sure exactly.
Does that still work against later bosses in the game, like Jenova and Sephy? Question out of sheer curiosity here.
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Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mmm...do not remember Beat being that good. Not something above 50%, really. And if it's not better than that, he really does lose here.
Each enemy in DQ4 (Same as in all early DQ games) have unique status resist scores. Beat's fine as long as you don't spam it against ID immune enemies, though there are a lot of those at endgame. On the flipside DQ4 endgame enemies are fairly badass against magic in general and resist elemental magic pretty often, so it's not just a problem with status.
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Flame, Thunder, etc. work on every boss in FF5 barring elemental immunity/absorption, ignoring immunity to regular gravity attacks and everything else. There's no way that I'd allow bosses to have the same effectiveness as the PC version though, as you have to go through a lot of hoops to get them on the PC side as a check on the potentially crazy power. Meanwhile, for bosses it's a mediocre MT attack that is freely tossed around because it's not particularly threatening against PCs.
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Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mmm...do not remember Beat being that good. Not something above 50%, really. And if it's not better than that, he really does lose here.
Each enemy in DQ4 (Same as in all early DQ games) have unique status resist scores. Beat's fine as long as you don't spam it against ID immune enemies, though there are a lot of those at endgame. On the flipside DQ4 endgame enemies are fairly badass against magic in general and resist elemental magic pretty often, so it's not just a problem with status.
I realize that. What is the typical rate against endgame non-immunes, though? I really do remember it being around 50% or so (boss version is better, but I think that's because the PCs in general don't have much resistance...damn, I need to play games again). Status is typically taken against endgame average enemies vulnerable to the status so...that's what we need! I typically do remember 50%, though, and I'm not seeing Millenia tanking to that. Granted, Cristo could just win via Stopspell anyway - while she can still use her techs, she won't be able to use her magic, and Cristo's defense might let him live through SBE+GC/FW/whatever. He then probably gets a shot to heal, and Millenia is screwed. She needs to hit his non-existent magic defense, I think? Interesting match either way.
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Stopspell's a wash, Millenia's (default) helm resists Magic Block.
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Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mmm...do not remember Beat being that good. Not something above 50%, really. And if it's not better than that, he really does lose here.
Each enemy in DQ4 (Same as in all early DQ games) have unique status resist scores. Beat's fine as long as you don't spam it against ID immune enemies, though there are a lot of those at endgame. On the flipside DQ4 endgame enemies are fairly badass against magic in general and resist elemental magic pretty often, so it's not just a problem with status.
I realize that. What is the typical rate against endgame non-immunes, though? I really do remember it being around 50% or so (boss version is better, but I think that's because the PCs in general don't have much resistance...damn, I need to play games again). Status is typically taken against endgame average enemies vulnerable to the status so...that's what we need! I typically do remember 50%, though, and I'm not seeing Millenia tanking to that. Granted, Cristo could just win via Stopspell anyway - while she can still use her techs, she won't be able to use her magic, and Cristo's defense might let him live through SBE+GC/FW/whatever. He then probably gets a shot to heal, and Millenia is screwed. She needs to hit his non-existent magic defense, I think? Interesting match either way.
I took Beat against endgame enemies that were possible to status, it came out to 70%~ then.
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Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)- Funny to see what people allow because its Myria. I've always allowed those things anyway so it doesn't matter to me.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8)- Malik went nearly to the finals of godlike due to his spoiler. Emily has no spoiler and so is just a heavy in godlike. So goodbye, go pick up a spoiler of some kind and then you'll pass as a godlike.
Middle
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP)-I have to go off her ToW form and so see no reason why Jude loses this.
Light
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS)
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA)- Evil Gaia turns up in its Gaia Core form. A bad beating for Asch follows shortly after. Also Asch a heavy? I agree so is Evil Gaia. Whoever wins here wins the light and middle divisions.
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Bah. "Evil Gaia" refers speciically to the joke final boss at the end of the game. I agree that Gaia Core is a Heavy, but that is distinctly not what is ranked. If we ranked "Gaia" I would agree with you, but "Evil Gaia" is only used in one fight.
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Middle
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP)-I have to go off her ToW form and so see no reason why Jude loses this.
Are you referring to her ToW:RM form, because I'm pretty sure she can OHKO just fine there.
-Djinn
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Re Beat: This actually brings up a general problem with adjudicating spells in the DL. In Game A, some impressive status spell fails almost all the time against your average enemy, and it only works consistently on the 10% of enemies with horrible Resistance (Baldur's Gate isn't a bad example, what with high-level 2nd edition characters nearly always making their saves). In Game B, most enemies are instead outright immune, and it only works at all on 10% of enemies, but when it does work it has a good hit rate. In-game, this spell is pretty bad in both games, but it's clearly *worse* in Game B where it can't work at all against most enemies rather than simply having bad odds. Yet in the DL, the spell in Game A will correctly receive no respect, but the spell Game B will be awesome?
The worst offender, IIRC, is FF4A Palom - I think that whoever did the tests said that they could only find two enemies who weren't immune to most of his tricks? But when an enemy wasn't immune, it worked 90% of the time.
Anyway, Beat was better than that, but I recall mostly being annoyed at Cristo when he tried to cast Beat on Necrosaro or dumb things like that. I'm not inclined to give it all that much respect either.
Godlike
Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5) - Ex-death respect, you're required to have Agni, etc.
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9) - Horrific OHKO. Also my memory may be off but even with a slower Tibarn Rashidi is not really fast? Sure he's got tons of actions, but most are coming waaaaaaay at the end of the combat, and I don't even agree that "one OB combat = one standard RPG round." Tibarn would still double the slow but multi-acting Ghaleon too, and heck, I don't think he even needs the double because tarot cards exist and Rashidi's HP is horrible. You've got no reason to save them up at this point. If you could re-use a Grandia III orb as often as you liked in battle
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8) - Horrific slaughter.
Heavy
Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3) - Boss form has infinite healing and will sloooooooowly get double turns. And no respect for Galcian's damage to pull the OHKO as usual, though I can see it being close with Sarah's less than wonderful durability.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs) - Legretta is about the worst nightmare around for a BG spellcaster who needs to keep concentration. There's an annoying interp question for if melee characters can close fast enough for the caster to finish the spell, but none such for a gun-user.
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - See above.
Middle
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS) - Abyss Walker.
Light
Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - See above, not feeling generous about status hit rates today.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Dang, close.
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA) - Yeah. Can EG even do damage to the boss form?
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Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3) - Boss form has infinite healing and will sloooooooowly get double turns. And no respect for Galcian's damage to pull the OHKO as usual, though I can see it being close with Sarah's less than wonderful durability.
People have mentioned Yuber's boss form as being no better than half PCHP, if I remember, and Sarah is even less durable. Unless you really don't have any Galcian damage respect, or lots of S3 boss durability respect.
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Anyway, Beat was better than that, but I recall mostly being annoyed at Cristo when he tried to cast Beat on Necrosaro or dumb things like that. I'm not inclined to give it all that much respect either.
lol antihyping a status when you're hyping giving a boss here (Sarah) perfect AI. DW4's AI has zero bearing on how good Beat is in the DL. Is SpeedUp worthless in the DL because Brey never uses it? No. Beat is a good spell in game that requires some knowledge to use. So what?
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9) - Horrific OHKO. Also my memory may be off but even with a slower Tibarn Rashidi is not really fast? Sure he's got tons of actions, but most are coming waaaaaaay at the end of the combat, and I don't even agree that "one OB combat = one standard RPG round." Tibarn would still double the slow but multi-acting Ghaleon too, and heck, I don't think he even needs the double because tarot cards exist and Rashidi's HP is horrible. You've got no reason to save them up at this point. If you could re-use a Grandia III orb as often as you liked in battle.
Rashidi's base AGI is high (50~ish points above the average.) That's not the problem. A second lol is required in a post where you're hyping S3 Sarah's healing then calling another boss who isn't Hrist OHKO bait.
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - See above, not feeling generous about status hit rates today.
Tellah's status works on most everything in Zot, and Stone at least is turn one and I'm pretty sure Stop is turn one for everyone.
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Re Beat: This actually brings up a general problem with adjudicating spells in the DL. In Game A, some impressive status spell fails almost all the time against your average enemy, and it only works consistently on the 10% of enemies with horrible Resistance (Baldur's Gate isn't a bad example, what with high-level 2nd edition characters nearly always making their saves). In Game B, most enemies are instead outright immune, and it only works at all on 10% of enemies, but when it does work it has a good hit rate. In-game, this spell is pretty bad in both games, but it's clearly *worse* in Game B where it can't work at all against most enemies rather than simply having bad odds. Yet in the DL, the spell in Game A will correctly receive no respect, but the spell Game B will be awesome?
The worst offender, IIRC, is FF4A Palom - I think that whoever did the tests said that they could only find two enemies who weren't immune to most of his tricks? But when an enemy wasn't immune, it worked 90% of the time.
Usually in an RPG it's only *endgame* where status immunities are extremely common - earlier on they work at the stated rates. This is generally enough for people to take high status rates at face value, even in games like FF4 where they aren't worth much in the final dungeon.
I can't think of any examples off the top of my head where a status spell pretty much sucks the entire game due to constant resists, but I seem to recall grumbling about something of that sort along with not taking the stated high rates fully seriously. Might have been elemental damage instead, though.
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Cristo: To be clear, no, I'm not actually holding AI against Cristo, but I am holding the seeming hit rate on Beat against him, which is worse than 70% thanks to some enemies actually being immune (an error I'm sure I would have made as well had I been controlling Cristo).
S3 bosses: Well, I never understood the antihype some S3 bosses get for their HP. Yuber with half PCHP sounds waaaaaaaaay low. They almost always fight in groups with support, meaning I'm not scaling their HP down at all. I'd hesitantly guess Sarah as being about .75 PCHP? And Galcian can barely OHKO Fina with his best attack IIRC, and I think Fina is worse than that.
Tellah: If it does work on everything in Zot, that would change my vote.
Edit: hinode: Oh, I agree with that point. If only at the very endgame does status start being horrible, I'm less inclined to disrespect the status... I mean, I'm not sure there's actually a good answer to this. Ideally a status would be about as good the whole game, but it would be unfair to hose a spell that's fine the whole game because monsters in the final dungeon are immune. On the other hand, we do similar horrible things for damage - Jean has game-best damage in Lunar2 for most of the second half of the game, but has below-average damage in the DL thanks to Hiro and Lemina getting giant damage spikes in the last dungeon. Ugh.
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S3 bosses antihype? Simple: the later forms tend to get OHKOed in game, and the best ones durability-wise get one-rounded on average. I OHKOed Cyndar Ruins Sarah with freaking Estella, who dealt high three-digit damage. All of their forms are hilariously frail, the final ones even more so. With storebought Runes, you can overkill endgame Sarah and Yuber even before Song of Madness.
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For more concrete goodness, in their Ritual Site forms Sarah has 3000 (3500? That range) HP, Yuber has 5000. Putting together 12 characters (split party, all that) that can deal 1000 damage is trivial as long as you have 12 characters with fully built skills or suitable magic runes, let alone high end Suikoden twinking. So it's pretty easy to kill them in one round in-game (OHKOs require a little effort), assuming you hit them and discounting evade/parry/elemental resist concerns. So seeing them as sub-PC to some degree is fairly reasonable. Mind, you can also argue that they fight with support, or that having so many fully developed characters is excessive, that sort of thing, so not finding them horrible OHKO-bait is not unreasonable either, but it's good for DL matters to keep other interps in mind even if you don't follow them, makes arguments more meaningful.
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Cristo: To be clear, no, I'm not actually holding AI against Cristo, but I am holding the seeming hit rate on Beat against him, which is worse than 70% thanks to some enemies actually being immune (an error I'm sure I would have made as well had I been controlling Cristo).
You can't status out Saro, clearly every status in DW4 is 0%. *Nod* That's inane. Immunity does not effect (Base) hit rates, does Lede suddenly have 0% Stop because Ramza should always be guarding it? A couple of these enemies are outright immune to magic at endgame (Metals) and some are immune to most offensive magic. 70% scaled against anything that could theorically be hit seems completely fair, it gives you a proper DL scale from magical tanks to the scrubs. Of course, immunity is immunity, and 0 can't be scaled.
As it relates to Sarah, her healing isn't full or even close.
Edit: hinode: Oh, I agree with that point. If only at the very endgame does status start being horrible, I'm less inclined to disrespect the status... I mean, I'm not sure there's actually a good answer to this. Ideally a status would be about as good the whole game, but it would be unfair to hose a spell that's fine the whole game because monsters in the final dungeon are immune. On the other hand, we do similar horrible things for damage - Jean has game-best damage in Lunar2 for most of the second half of the game, but has below-average damage in the DL thanks to Hiro and Lemina getting giant damage spikes in the last dungeon. Ugh.
Shit does happen in the translation from in game to DL. More to the point, status isn't scaled like damage is, 100% is 100% and 5% is 5%. Damage doesn't work that way, and that leads to weirdness like Jean and Cecil tanking in damage at endgame.
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I'd punish beat's accuracy if a lot of the things that could be hit by it at endgame were hit less than 70% of the time, but it doesn't sound like the case.
Not that it matters. Millenia is, despite what a gutcheck would tell you, a fighter in the DL, not a mage. Going first and casting upper is more of a sure win for Cristo than Beat is at the highest levels of respect. Sure Millenia could SBE him and... then what? She does a few shots of damage that barely register then the status wears off, Millenia's MP runs dry, and Cristo heals. Game.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs) - Legretta is about the worst nightmare around for a BG spellcaster who needs to keep concentration. There's an annoying interp question for if melee characters can close fast enough for the caster to finish the spell, but none such for a gun-user.
Edwin's key spells (mislead, flame arrow, possibly fireshield red if he even gets that in the DL) are too fast for him to have to worry about concentration, they're all 3 casting time or lower IIRC. (Max is 10) That, and most people ignore concentration for ARPG mages in the DL.
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Monkeyfinger: If Cristo opens with Upper... Millenia SBEs, tries to cast Sshh on him? I don't think Cristo blocks any statuses, so Silence would be Very Bad for him, since Millenia has some normally weak healing too (but probably enough against Cristo). The stat topic doesn't list Sshh's chances, but with SBE and Cristo's eh offense afterward, she'll have time to try and get it off even though I don't think its odds are very good.
superaielman: Again, more referring to the point that if the enemies who were immune to Cristo's Beat spell instead could be affected 1% percent of the time, would Cristo's chances drop to 50%? How much respect does the spell get, how much does enemy status resistance? I'm not saying I even have "the answer" here, but I'm reserving the right to gut check against status success rates that sound too good. Maybe I"ll just roll a die and see if Cristo gets his Beat off, since even if Cristo's odds are 50%, he might well still win against Millenia's bad MDef. And... 55 on a d100. Lovely, looks like I have to make my decision after all rather than a blowout. That does look favorable to Cristo if you assume 50% on average MDef with a penalty for Millenia. Might just abstain.
As for S3 Sarah, obviously her PC form has full healing, but I thought her boss form did too? Maybe not the final Ruins form, but probably her earlier forms? Because, yeah, without infinite full healing she burns, the PC form definitely loses. (And as for Jo'ou and CmdrKing's comments, yeah, I'm assuming a not terribly twinked party, and say 4/6 members distracted by support. Still, .75 PCHP is "faster than two-rounded in a fair fight," so she's still frail.)
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superaielman: Again, more referring to the point that if the enemies who were immune to Cristo's Beat spell instead could be affected 1% percent of the time, would Cristo's chances drop to 50%? How much respect does the spell get, how much does enemy status resistance? I'm not saying I even have "the answer" here, but I'm reserving the right to gut check against status success rates that sound too good. Maybe I"ll just roll a die and see if Cristo gets his Beat off, since even if Cristo's odds are 50%, he might well still win against Millenia's bad MDef. And... 55 on a d100. Lovely, looks like I have to make my decision after all rather than a blowout. That does look favorable to Cristo if you assume 50% on average MDef with a penalty for Millenia. Might just abstain.
The gut check is understandable, but my basic point is that immunity shouldn't impact rates. Yes it does schew views and in game uses some, but we aren't trying to translate perfectly from in game to DL and it's not possible anyway. 70% is about more or less close enough to accurate based on my own use, as long as it wasn't being walled. It's a good status and generally hits but isn't perfectly accurate, long as you don't hit an ID immune target. I tested it extensively enough (And DW4 magic and in general) to say it's a fair mark, considering how easily it smashes most of the game's enemies then like all magic, struggles relatively at endgame. Still is good, etc etc.
As for S3 Sarah, obviously her PC form has full healing, but I thought her boss form did too? Maybe not the final Ruins form, but probably her earlier forms? Because, yeah, without infinite full healing she burns, the PC form definitely loses. (And as for Jo'ou and CmdrKing's comments, yeah, I'm assuming a not terribly twinked party, and say 4/6 members distracted by support. Still, .75 PCHP is "faster than two-rounded in a fair fight," so she's still frail.)
Her earlier forms are both bad in the DL (No HP/healing isn't full) and generally not legal. The only Luc/Sarah/Yuber fight you have to win is the C5 one, and that one is about as academic as you expect.
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superaielman: Again, more referring to the point that if the enemies who were immune to Cristo's Beat spell instead could be affected 1% percent of the time, would Cristo's chances drop to 50%? How much respect does the spell get, how much does enemy status resistance? I'm not saying I even have "the answer" here, but I'm reserving the right to gut check against status success rates that sound too good. Maybe I"ll just roll a die and see if Cristo gets his Beat off, since even if Cristo's odds are 50%, he might well still win against Millenia's bad MDef. And... 55 on a d100. Lovely, looks like I have to make my decision after all rather than a blowout. That does look favorable to Cristo if you assume 50% on average MDef with a penalty for Millenia. Might just abstain
As an example here, FF1 technically has no 100% status immunity since a 255/255 roll will work no matter what. Most people treat this as functional immunity for all DL purposes, so people Tir can't ID Chaos and it isn't taken into account for hit rates.
It's when almost every monster that isn't outright immune has, say, 50% resist to a status that still works that it looks bad in-game for the spell's accuracy - it's effective rate is roughly halved then. Of course, there's a grey area here on where to draw the line (90%? 95%?).
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Just to skip over the main argument here and again provide an example.
ToPo. Arche's ID. It has an awesome hit rate. You wouldn't know it in game because fucking everything and its dog is immune to ID.
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I'd like to chime in and point out something simple from the other end of the argument.
Accounting for immunity for an average is reasonable right up until you remember there's immunity in the DL.
It's a downside in-game because things null it, and it's a downside in the DL, so why penalize them for it being a downside in-game when that downside is reflected adequately in the DL?
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On the other side though you have mechanics like BoF4 status resistance, where the base hit rate of moves is far higher than you will ever see because almost everything has an innate level of resistance and it is the vulnerability that is the abnormality.
Edit - That is, like most things in the DL, it should have a sliding scale attached to it. Interpretting things into a rigid universal framework isn't the absolute goal. Interpretting thigns in a flexible framework that can account for everything is the goal.
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Well, yes, a few games use fixed stats specifically for status resistance instead of a general stat for it, which gums things up, but averaging those resists is pretty easy.
Not really different from how enemies with high/low MDef resist status more or less in their games. Immunity is a good line. (Or effective immunity. I'm not sure where the line is there, but as a kneejerk I'm inclined to say that it's past the point where spamming it on a boss with everyone will take longer to apply the status than simply killing the boss with low-end attacks would. 95%+ resistance or so.
I'm still not sure effective immunity blocks 100% status, mind, but that's another issue. <_<)
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Bah. "Evil Gaia" refers speciically to the joke final boss at the end of the game. I agree that Gaia Core is a Heavy, but that is distinctly not what is ranked. If we ranked "Gaia" I would agree with you, but "Evil Gaia" is only used in one fight.
You have countered my statement with a Technacality. I'll counter it with a plot fusion arguement :P
The final boss form of Evil Gaia is clearly a plot fusion as you see Gaia core and it's mega Gaias fuse together to form it. Thus it is blatantly an illegal form and must be thrown out, and the only form you can fall back on is its core form which is 100% legal.
As the Gaia Core is basically EG as it does all the talking and everything it also fits and so my vote is justified.
Are you referring to her ToW:RM form, because I'm pretty sure she can OHKO just fine there.
-Djinn
I don't see the OHKO. Jude has the speed and attack to take it from there.
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If Gaia had been ranked, then Evil Gaia would be illegal because it is a plot fusion that is not Gaia. However, Gaia was not ranked, Evil Gaia, the fused form, was. And by calling it a plot fusion, you also call it a separate entity from Gaia; therefore, it can and should be ranked separately, and considered a different entity in regards to the DL.
So there.
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If Gaia had been ranked, then Evil Gaia would be illegal because it is a plot fusion that is not Gaia. However, Gaia was not ranked, Evil Gaia, the fused form, was. And by calling it a plot fusion, you also call it a separate entity from Gaia; therefore, it can and should be ranked separately, and considered a different entity in regards to the DL.
So there.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, plot fusions are legal as long as one of their component parts isn't -ranked-? By this logic, if Saturos wasn't ranked, Menardi should be able to formchain the Fusion Dragon, for example? Or if Lenneth-Hrist-Silmeria weren't ranked, then Alicia would clearly have access to her Valkyrie form?
-Djinn
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If Gaia had been ranked, then Evil Gaia would be illegal because it is a plot fusion that is not Gaia. However, Gaia was not ranked, Evil Gaia, the fused form, was. And by calling it a plot fusion, you also call it a separate entity from Gaia; therefore, it can and should be ranked separately, and considered a different entity in regards to the DL.
So there.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, plot fusions are legal as long as one of their component parts isn't -ranked-? By this logic, if Saturos wasn't ranked, Menardi should be able to formchain the Fusion Dragon, for example? Or if Lenneth-Hrist-Silmeria weren't ranked, then Alicia would clearly have access to her Valkyrie form?
-Djinn
Plot fusions have nothing to do with other ranked duellers. Being plot fusions is usually a strike against rankability for anyone. How much of one and how that works, depends heavily on the plot.
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So if I'm understanding this correctly, plot fusions are legal as long as one of their component parts isn't -ranked-? By this logic, if Saturos wasn't ranked, Menardi should be able to formchain the Fusion Dragon, for example? Or if Lenneth-Hrist-Silmeria weren't ranked, then Alicia would clearly have access to her Valkyrie form?
The point is that if a "plot fusion" is ranked under the plot fusion's name, then the plot fusion is legal for that dueller. Taking your examples, if we ranked "Fusion Dragon", then Fusion Dragon form would be legal for Fusion Dragon. If we ranked "Valkyrie", Valkyrie form would be legal for Valkyrie.
The point is that the plot fusion is a different entity, and if THAT entity is ranked, then it is obviously legal for THAT entity.
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Snow, Tal: Ah. Makes sense. That's what I had pretty much assumed, but Ultradude's wording left me a little confused. I don't really remember G1's endgame plot well enough to comment on Evil Gaia/Gaia, though. Anyone care to remind me why Evil Gaia was ranked over Gaia if Gaia was both a non-fusion AND a better dueller? Not that I'm complaining, I find Evil Gaia to be all kinds of amusing.
-Djinn
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Gaia's a generic monster final boss, not the type of thing we usually ranked. EVIL GAIA we just ranked as a joke.
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ToPo. Arche's ID. It has an awesome hit rate. You wouldn't know it in game because fucking everything and its dog is immune to ID
Same as SO3. Enemies have both an SA - status abnormality resistance and an ID check. SA varies from as low as 16 SA up to 100 (most bosses) ID on the other hand is annoyingly set to 98 resist for most enemies so characters that have ID moves in game can't make the same us of them as they can in the DL. Seems like SO3 is similar to BoF4's status thing as well. Hurrah someone that knows what I'm talking about~
Middle
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS) FFIV The After Kain HYPE anybody!? Nope? Fine then ;p
Light
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) Ahaha, ahahaha ... Poor Rufus >.>
**
Going back a bit - Jude can't 2HKO? In general I mean not for his match this round which I can't vote on anyway >.>
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Jude can't 2HKO? In general I mean not for his match this round which I can't vote on anyway >.>
Normally, an Attack + follow Assault Buster from Rapid attack 2HKOs cleanly against average. IIRC, the one-two combo deals 20000 damage together. Kill point again for WA4 under new averages is roughly 19000.
This of course runs into problems because Assault Buster is finnicky. Having high amounts of defense, speed or evasion skews the damage it deals. So Jude's 2HKOing abilities have limitations and isn't guaranteed. He's usually fast enough after the first attack though to still 3-2. So typically, he will maybe get one extra hit in. A non boosted Assault Buster deals roughly average damage against average. But again, his capabilities will vary wildly dependent on what his opponent's defensive stats look like.
In this case (I can't vote on it either), it doesn't matter either way. If you go by stat topic numbers in both ToP and WA4, Jude kills EVEN without using Assault Buster (he's just shy of the kill point, but Arche's less durable than average). I was assuming for arguments that Arche does fly and thus nukes Assault Buster's hit rate per slash, which in this case, he 3HKOs.