The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: OblivionKnight on July 29, 2008, 09:39:10 PM
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Welcome one and all! We already had FE9 and...well, might have had D2 at some point. Those two games are being ranked at this very moment! The next best chances for ranking 2 seasons from now are P3 (which nearly made it this time) and WA5 (topic already done, game probably is the next best one). So, P3 discussion...away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Biggest issues: Fes crossover (Aigis ranking, when to rank the game, etc.), bosses, allowances, etc. Basically, any thoughts or opinions on the game are welcome.
My personal thoughts here:
Definitely rank Yukari, Junpei, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Aigis (see below), Koromaru, Ken, Shinjiro, Chidori, Jin, Takaya.
As for Minato...eh, there are interps that would make him not Blue-like, at least. Don't care much, since I don't think anyone will support him much. Fuuka...would be an awesome rank, but again, don't think anyone will support her >_> The final, Nyx Avatar (whom also could go under another name...which I'll spoiler-guard at the end of this post) I would support, but I don't know how many others will go for her/him/it/DEARGODTHEPAIN. Will probably definitely support her/him/it.
When Fes comes time...it's really only Metis and a possible Aigis re-rank. No bosses really work. As for Aigis...I could see her ranked when Fes comes out. She really does need to be ranked, and isn't as evil as Minato. However, if Fes won't be ranked ever...I'd say she should be ranked initially just so she gets in. To an extent, I'd almost say just rank P3 this time, but Fes does need a bit more time. Still, I guess Metis comes in under a FW anyway later, so...eh.
Ryoji
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Definite yes to Non Minato/Aigis/Fuuka PCs, and Strega (for all that they are kind of ass in a duel, and boring minus Chidori, who is a hilarious Light spoiler).
Aigis...well, FES won't be ready yet, and the vote split is far worse than say Tibarn and Naesala. Even worse, it's not a power difference based on a sequel that was out during the ranking, but essentially an add on. We'd have to rank them as what...P3: The Journey and then hope that people knew the difference and voted on it. No to that.
Minato is no thanks to being seen as Bluelike. In no way do I allow him the initiative (Since...it's more whoever attacks first goes first. A monster attacks you, and they go first! Minato attacks the monster, and Minato goes first! A monster gets into a scuffle with a different PC, and that PC then goes before Minato), but since most will and he has overkill smash, not rankable.
Nyx isn't uber broken to me since I allow spillover damage, but is an absolute nightmare in a duel anyways though.
I'll throw up my current numerical rankings later.
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Nyx isn't uber broken to me since I allow spillover damage, but is an absolute nightmare in a duel anyways though.
Two words: Moonless. Gown.
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Its also worth noting that Night Queen breaks status immunity. Doubt this matters, but is a bit O_o inspiring. Also: Nyx's HP buffering is a rather large positive in his favor in-game, as the frailty of them means if damge DID spill over, he would be easier to blitz through (&$%&*$ MT ID).
I'd rank all the non-Minato PCs myself. Aigis... I haven't played FES enough to say, so I wouldn't have a problem with her personally, and would vote to rank accordingly.
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Moonless Gown has a 1 turn gap that at least gives good damage dealers the time to take Nyx out.
I kind of find every form but the last to be a joke, so the only thing you'd really gain from being able to blitz through in game to me would be less aggrevation of dying due to being randomly statused at the end.
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Moonless Gown has a 1 turn gap that at least gives good damage dealers the time to take Nyx out.
I'm... not sure it even does. I believe I've seen Nyx take down Moonless Gown and put it back up in the same turn.
Anyways, I'd support all non-Minato PCs (this does not include Fuuka, OK), and probably Strega. Metis if FES picks up enough by then but somehow doubting it.
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I kind of find every form but the last to be a joke, so the only thing you'd really gain from being able to blitz through in game to me would be less aggrevation of dying due to being randomly statused at the end.
(&$%&*$ MT ID)
Add in a no to Metis from me, despite liking the concept of an Aigis fangirl.
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Somehow I don't think this game is that complex rankingwise to require a whole topic, but I suppose this'll be standard with big games now or something.
Rank: Non-Minato PCs (Although Minato with Orpheus only would be awesome.), Strega, Fuuka
DNR: King Minato, Nyx Avatar (Although I have never seen Moonless Gown spam. Mainly, it seemed like it was used at 25% HP intervals but that was probably just me.)
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Actual thoughts on where I'd rank people. Definites first:
Yukari - High Light of some sort. Her HP is pretty weak (80%), and her END doesn't help much. She lacks an amp (which she'd kill for), so her damage isn't that great. Lots of healing, at least, but that doesn't help her much when someone has electric damage. So yeah...decent Light, but not a Middle.
Junpei - Middle, likely. Probably need to run more tests on High Counter, but it's probably close to 33% overall. That + Regen and a rare weakness with a good null is great. Damage is below average unless using his HP-eating techs, but his HP and END are good enough to keep him going for a while with the anti-physical game he has. Thanks God his magical defense isn't based on MAG.
Akihiko - Middle, possibly on the high end. The ice weakness is balls, but nulling electric helps. His damage is good, ever so close to a 2-shot to most. His healing is great, and he has the stat-drops to help put foes into a wringer. His physical is also a decent back-up if needed, and his durability is pretty close to average. A good tough Middle, but that weakness does knock him down a good bit.
Mitsuru - Middle, probably the same as Aki. Fire weakness instead of ice, nulls ice instead. Damage is 2-shottable to most, and she has Mind Charge and a decentish status to fall back on. Also has the healing, though her physical is nowhere near as good as Akihiko's, and her durability is a little bit worse. Still good for Middle, hates the weakness, lalalala.
Koromaru - Middle! Damage pretty close to Akihiko's, a much better weakness (Light, which could even be argued as ID weakness instead!), 2 resists (Fire and Dark, for all that dark isn't that great), also has High Counter like Junpei, and ID! He lacks healing of any sort, but has multiple options and back-up to help him. Also has great durability with his HP. The individual components could be better, but they add up to something pretty respectable.
Ken - High Middle. ID is good (solid - better than Koro's, though a more common element if you see it that way), and he has healing. Damage is...not great, though he does have the ability to hit both defenses. He lives on ID and healing, though his durability isn't great (better than Yukari!). At least the rarest weakness of the bunch helps (Dark).
Shinjiro - Temp! Anyway, at worst a Middle, possibly higher. If you take him at the time he leaves, he has Power Charge and good physicals, and shitty regen, though faces much, much lower averages in general. Scale him up to endgame with skills and everything, and he's pretty good as well - Power Charge, God's Hand, much better regen, High Counter. He's also the only one with no weaknesses, and his durability is solid. Might very well be some type of Low Heavy.
Chidori - PUNY!!!! Actually an awesome one. A great skillset backed up with horrible, horrible HP. At least her defenses are fairly normal! Anyway, 50% HP Tetrakarn wins against poor fighters, and she has REGEN!!!!!!
Jin - Levels change him and Takaya a lot. Anyway, I'd say Lower Heavy echelons. Has damage variety and lots of status, as well as durability. Nothing else special, but...good otherwise.
Takaya - Higher Heavy range. Damage is fantastic, and he has Mind Charge. Great durability too, and ID that he almost never uses! Good overall.
Now, for the questionable people!
Minato - Godlike. No matter what. Not giving initiative...makes him more beatable, though he's still evil. Armageddon is awful, and he can wall just about anything. Granted, HP are low, and most personas have weaknesses to exploit. I'd be for ranking him, personally, but most will view him as unbeatable, so...
Fuuka - Puny. Awful in all regards, but the cast loves you if you take her into the averages!
Aigis - Higher Middle ranges. Hates the resistance/weakness she has a lot. Loves everything else! No magic damage, but the kajas and physicals with healing and nothing else to spend her SP on make her pretty good overall. Plus, Orgia Mode for fun finishers. Godlike, though somewhat lower than Minato if you take Fes into account - lacking fusions ruins Armageddon, but she gets everything else in the game, which helps!
Nyx Avatar/Spoilers - Godlike. Lots of forms to wear people down, then the Death form to maul everyone with Moonless Gown and Night Queen. Excellent.
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DNR to Minato, Ageis, and Nyx for obvious reasons.
Rank rest of the PCs and Strega.
Whoever mentions Fuuka must die.
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Somehow I don't think this game is that complex rankingwise to require a whole topic, but I suppose this'll be standard with big games now or something.
It's actually pretty common, depending on interest levels/boredom of the people involved.
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Yeah, it's generally a fun thing to discuss, and I think it's helped so far (FE9 - less arguing than usual). Also will probably be good for WA5 too. P3 is much easier in that regard (the only questions are the final and Aigis, generally), but it still helps.
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Lots of pre-ranking talk is good! Give numerical rankings! Giving lots of thought to what should be ranked and who goes where and all that before a game gets ranked makes for as smooth a transition as possible, as well as decreases the probability of misrankings.
That said
Yukari- 2.75. Durability and damage aren't there. Lots of healing though, and a decent enough physical back-up. Very bad trade on her weakness.
Junpei- 3.15. Think I respect him a little more than when I made my Contenders ranking. The Regen is so nice on him, especially with the good HP and END. Passable damage of both types is very helpful, and High Counter is good on turn 3 (Which he'll usually see in a physical slugfest minus facing Valeria-level damage, I think).
Akihiko- 3.3. Average Middle. Debuffs are nice when coupled with healing, but nothing stands out. Note that I haven't really tested accuracy/evasion much (and haven't tested the debuff at all), so he could end up with like 40% overall evasion after turn 1, in which case he'd definetely jump up higher.
Mitsuru- 3.4. The quick-draw healer who is all about having ways to stop other healers! (Minus those with more accurate Silence, and even then...). Distress weapon, Silence, Mind Charge...all are decent anti-healer tricks, and having 2HKO to start with is also very good. Blargh to her weakness though, as she may have the worst trade off along with Yukari.
Koromaru- 3.3. Respect for him climbed a little since I think High Counter+awesome AGI does give him a really nice physical evade cushion. Turn 3 ID and such then.
Ken- 3.5. The balanced PC. Equal magic and physical damage, healing, ID, and a weakness that doesn't come up too often. Passable in a slugfest, passable in a quick draw, but never solid at anything.
Shinjiro- 3.35. (Assuming Endgame here for sanity. Theoretically scaled from when he leaves and stuff except relative stats shouldn't really change and he gets his last skill at the same level range of everyone else). I need to test God Hand's accuracy, because that was one attack for me that just consistently had some notable accuracy issues. If it actually doesn't, he's a lot better since Power Charge+God Hand 2HKOs. Otherwise, High Counter and Regenerate makes physicallers hate him, and Power Charge could be nasty on some frail healers.
Chidori- 2.75. 45% PC HP and sheer awesome. Tetrakarn is hilarious on her, since pure physicallers must OHKO her (Not that hard!) or die! Killing Fire damage also helps with another decent chunk of Suikoden mages/Tao.
Jin- 4.0. Turn 2 Charm off decent durability. Charm and Berserk if he faces a mage with a truly shit physical, but overall just really a status whore.
Takaya- 3.8 or something. 2 PC HP, and borderline 3HKO. Yeah, no way I'm letting him spam that ID though, because it's beyond rare. Could be a Middle, just kind of unsure where to place him at the moment.
Aigis 1- 3.4. Respect fell a little overall, I think. Orgia Mode...well, it's like Shinjiro's PC against healers really (Except she doesn't even the option of 2HKOing normal ever). She three turns either way. Granted, she can buff attack, then PC, and then borderline OHKO, I think. If the evasion buffs ends up awesome, she would move up.
Aigis 2- 4.6ish. Turn 1 ID or the option to completely immune physicals and having Makarakarn on something makes some sort of Godlike obvious. General can spoil Heavy to death, but can't really compete with the big Godlikes. Plenty of people are just too quick or versatile to handle here, although there may be lower level Persona that give her what she needs. May depend on what level of resists something like Scatach has.
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Aigis 1- 3.4. Respect fell a little overall, I think. Orgia Mode...well, it's like Shinjiro's PC against healers really (Except she doesn't even the option of 2HKOing normal ever). She three turns either way. Granted, she can buff attack, then PC, and then borderline OHKO, I think. If the evasion buffs ends up awesome, she would move up.
Rakakaja + Orgia Mode God Hand should OHKO, though not by a whole lot. Something like 105-110% PCHP IIRC.
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Moonless Gown has a 1 turn gap that at least gives good damage dealers the time to take Nyx out.
I'm... not sure it even does. I believe I've seen Nyx take down Moonless Gown and put it back up in the same turn.
He can. It's quite irritating.
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I've still got a month left in the game, which I totally got out of the groove of when I went away for 5 days. Praise my attention span.
Anyways, I guess I can comment on all the PCs and Chidori though. As in, I'd rank all of them 'cept for Minato. I'd see him merely as a "get a turn and win" Godlike, just with no more than average speed, but an almost certain win with Armageddon. Maybe guys like Elc and Berle could beat him without OHKO? Bosses who rely on a limited range of attack types can be nulled out pretty easy for their first attack, and then Minato can switch to Lucifer on his turn and Armageddon. He's definitely not unbeatable, regardless, but I think that people will probably give him his initiative, making him totally unbeatable.
Anyways, current impressions of the other PCs.
Yukari - High Light - Speed and damage aren't good, but certainly aren't bad. That durability... kinda is an issue though. Lightning weakness with a somewhat uncommon resist keeps her from being middle, where people will pounce on that durability without any buffing or support spells to prop it up.
Junpei - Middle - Slowish, but the HP, END, High Counter, Marakukaja, and Spring of Life make him... well, quite difficult to kill with physicals, since it's hard to avoid eating at least one of your own attacks. Very few middles will physically 2HKO Junpei, and nulling fire totallly outweighs his wind weakness. However, his damage is subpar unless he wants to eat up his own HP, and his magic isn't very good, so damage keeps him from being any more than middle. Write-up bait.
Akihiko - Middle or High Middle - The rank is because the jury is still out on Hit/Evasion in P3. Pretty average statistically, with a borderline 2HKO. Ice weakness and Lightning null even out, and he still loses to Jade. Healing and debuffs allow him to play around with different strategies, depending on how good Masukunda actually is. Fist Master even gives him a decent basic physical, giving him a little versatility to work with.
Mitsuru - High Middle - Crappy END, ice reliance, and fire weakness are pretty much all you can hold against her. And her crappy physical, but with Ice Break, Mind Charge, and gamebest damage - a solid 2HKO for those who she doesn't have to Break - she's doing a good job of killing people pretty dead. Diarahan gives her extra room to work with her extra spells, and at least she nulls ice to make up for the weakness... sort of.
Fuuka - Puny (DNR) - Doesn't... actually fight. Jogurt like fail if she did.
Aigis - High Middle or Low Heavy - Still need to play The Answer. Based on The Journey... well, she's got an excellent HP/END combo with Dispel and some solid buffing, again with the questions on evasion here. Another full healer in the cast, with a solid physical 2HKO if she uses Orgia Mode, maybe even OHKOing the particularly frail with God's Hand. Lightning weakness definitely holds her back though.
Koromaru - Middle - HP and speed are his only noteworthy stats, but it works well with High Counter to keep him going for a long time. Nulls two elements, including fire, with an obscure weakness. Fire Break makes his solid damage from Agidyne a little more viable, since resisting it only buys you an extra turn, but Koro-chan really wishes his ID was more accurate, though the speed and HP help with that too. Bonus match bait involving Suikodogs.
Ken - High Middle - Decent ID, full healing, and a hard weakness to exploit. Damage isn't all that great, unfortunately, and his magic damage is common, something that the entire cast has had to deal with. And he lacks the requisite break spell, much like Akihiko, though his physical is better anyways. So, he's the cast ID whore, and we've seen how far that gets people *coughNina2cough*.
Shinjiro - Low Heavy? - I'd like to see him as he is when he leaves the party... anyways, scaled to endgame as he is in the stat topic, he's pretty mean. HP is nothing special but he's got good END, with the same pairing of High Counter and regen that Junpei had. Doesn't null anything, but the lack of a weakness probably makes it a good thing, and a Power Charged God's Hand can OHKO with a vengeance, with Regenerate 2 softening the impact on his HP. Wishes he had magic though.
And the only boss I've seen the votable form of is Chidori... Jin and Takaya 1 are pretty sad compared to endgame, it looks like.
Chidori - Low Light/Puny - She takes hits like Euram, only probably worse, and Spring of Life doesn't do a whole lot for her. The damage is barely even there as well. However! The fire, dark, or light reliant can't touch her, so she spoils Rubicant and Zio! And any purely physical fighters who let her survive below half HP (they exist in light, especially fire mages forced to use physicals) lose instantly to Tetrakarn! GO FORTH AND CHAMP LIGHT IN THE NAME OF GOTHIC LOLITAS!!!
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Anyways, I guess I can comment on all the PCs and Chidori though. As in, I'd rank all of them 'cept for Minato. I'd see him merely as a "get a turn and win" Godlike, just with no more than average speed, but an almost certain win with Armageddon. Maybe guys like Elc and Berle could beat him without OHKO? Bosses who rely on a limited range of attack types can be nulled out pretty easy for their first attack, and then Minato can switch to Lucifer on his turn and Armageddon. He's definitely not unbeatable, regardless, but I think that people will probably give him his initiative, making him totally unbeatable.
Okay. Hyping Minato as "never above average speed" but then hyping other people as having different speed stats is just dumb. Even if you don't allow the initiative, Minato can equip a high speed Persona, get a quicker turn, and then hit with Armagedon.
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Okay, well forgot about that admittedly >_> They seemed to have some effect on whether your party members went before enemies or not, since I seem to recall Koromaru never ever being beaten by enemies when in the second slot, as opposed to Junpei being beaten out at times, but the spread is small enough that it probably wasn't worth mentioning. I think Loki had really high Agi?
Granted, that could have all been my imagination/strange coincidences, since I didn't use Koromaru very much. Still, I could also be inclined to say that the way Minato's first turn comes means that he is, by default, either initiative or dead average since even if it does have an effect on the rest of the party it doesn't affect when he goes (though that may just be based on the fact that I never sent my teammates off on their own and then joined in).
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Okay, well forgot about that admittedly >_> They seemed to have some effect on whether your party members went before enemies or not, since I seem to recall Koromaru never ever being beaten by enemies when in the second slot, as opposed to Junpei being beaten out at times, but the spread is small enough that it probably wasn't worth mentioning. I think Loki had really high Agi?
Granted, that could have all been my imagination/strange coincidences, since I didn't use Koromaru very much. Still, I could also be inclined to say that the way Minato's first turn comes means that he is, by default, either initiative or dead average since even if it does have an effect on the rest of the party it doesn't affect when he goes (though that may just be based on the fact that I never sent my teammates off on their own and then joined in).
So...
Minato is average speed because he has initiative?
Is that what you're saying?
That doesn't make sense at all.
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Anyways, Minato gets initiative in boss fights as well, and neither he or the enemy is "attacking" on the field. And when the team is ambushed by a shadow? The shadows all get a free turn, and then *GASP* Minato goes first each round.
To be honest, all this "Minato doesn't get initiative" stuff seems like a poor excuse to nerf him. He clearly gets initiative in-game.
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Not far enough to intelligently rank the cast yet, but do want to second Tal here. Minato goes first every turn, before enemies and other PCs, unless the enemy ambushes you and thus gets a free turn. If you ambush, Minato similarly will always act before the rest of the party. It's initiative. If you want to say it loses to other initiative (a fair argument) that's cool, but...
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I'll agree that it's pretty much just a vain attempt at making him not Bluelike. Boss battles and the turn order after an ambush are probably the best proof for him having initiative. Which means that he's not gonna get ranked, not that we haven't passed up a number of mains in the past for similar reasons like Ryu5.
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I'll agree that it's pretty much just a vain attempt at making him not Bluelike. Boss battles and the turn order after an ambush are probably the best proof for him having initiative. Which means that he's not gonna get ranked, not that we haven't passed up a number of mains in the past for similar reasons like Ryu5.
Well, at least Minato won't have many fans due to the whole not talking/no personality part. >.>
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Crono says hi, Tal.
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Even if Moonless Gown is spammable, it would still get the same treatment as MetaGuard and other invincible moves bosses have.
Minato goes after another PC after he joins the battle if the other PC is attacked first.
I haven't really seen any indication that AGI affects speed in any casually observable manner. If having a level 15 Junpei near endgame didn't change too much, can't imagine AGI has any effect (Not to mention, it's also affecting evasion and accuracy and there's no official mention of it ever effecting AGI) (Assuming high speed persona=high AGI).
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All this about Minato having initiative or not is pretty bloody moot. He immunes what his opponent does (its pretty trivial to fuse a Persona that nulls everything/almost everything, really) and THEN hits them with Armageddon, at the worst. Or he uses Status Immunity+Enduring Soul or whatever to ensure he gets a turn. No matter what his enemy does, they are eating 9999 damage.
And this is to say nothing of how nutsy he is even without Armageddon. Minato is a clear DNR. We can leave it at that.
Nyx, too, is a clear DNR. If for nothing other tha plot reasons. Is it Ryoji or Nyx that you fight? An amalgam? Nyx Avatar vs. Nyx disputes? Yeah, no. Moonless Gown and the 12 HP buffered free shots are also a strong lean in the "no" direction. DNR.
We all know neither of them is getting ranked, so lets not dispute it in this topic.
My rankings later, to pacify the OK.
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Minato goes after another PC after he joins the battle if the other PC is attacked first.
Not always. I've joined a battle with another PC and the enemy went first. I've joined a battle with another PC and Minato went first.
I think what happens is when a PC meets a shadow, a normal battle initiates. When Minato joins the battle, he joins in the middle of whatever round is going on, so since it's not the "beginning" of the round, it's not Minato's turn.
And even if you're correct? It's not enough to counter the fact that he gets initiative against bosses.
Even if Moonless Gown is spammable, it would still get the same treatment as MetaGuard and other invincible moves bosses have.
What treatment?
Nyx, too, is a clear DNR. If for nothing other tha plot reasons. Is it Ryoji or Nyx that you fight? An amalgam? Nyx Avatar vs. Nyx disputes? Yeah, no.
Uh... they're all the same person, really. I'm not buying this argument at all.
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*POTENTIAL SPOILERS BELOW*
Actually, Nyx is a clear DNR (plot fight with Minato you can't lose, the Great Seal fight with love from your friends and all that stuff), but Nyx Avatar (a.k.a., Ryoji) is perfectly rankable. They are two different characters - one is the Goddess of Death, the other is Ryoji, the champion, a.k.a. the Avatar of Nyx. Plotwise, Nyx Avatar is Ryoji (it's noted by Ryoji himself before Dec. 31st - "I am the bringer of Nyx, who will follow me once I transform into her avatar", something similar to that - and during the battle - "Ryoji?!" "That was once my name - I did not mind it" - and at the end after killing Nyx, Ryoji speaks about it as well). We'd be ranking Ryoji/Nyx Avatar, not Nyx itself (which is, as said, a plot battle). I think the majority of this topic is discussion (at least, my thoughts behind making it) were to hash out the few odd ranks (Nyx Avatar, Aigis, Minato, FUUKA!!!!), for the most part. DNRing on terms of power? THat's plausible, but plot is pretty clear.
As for Minato, as I'd said in the past, I can see not giving initiative to him, for the same reasons Dhyer said (granted, I do still see him with initiative, due to what Tal said). I actually lean on that side, and since I don't allow fusion customizability (i.e., no Abaddon with full nulls - kills the persona uniqueness), he's definitely beatable to me. Especially since AGI I'm now 90% certain has no effect on speed, despite the fact coincidences might seem otherwise. Again, a DNR on power is plausible, but...eh, I don't think he's that powerful.
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As for Minato, as I'd said in the past, I can see not giving initiative to him, for the same reasons Dhyer said (granted, I do still see him with initiative, due to what Tal said). I actually lean on that side, and since I don't allow fusion customizability (i.e., no Abaddon with full nulls - kills the persona uniqueness), he's definitely beatable to me. Especially since AGI I'm now 90% certain has no effect on speed, despite the fact coincidences might seem otherwise. Again, a DNR on power is plausible, but...eh, I don't think he's that powerful.
"don't think he's that powerful"
The only person who beats initiative Minato with Armageddon is Belial, and that's ONLY if you view high CTB speed as faster than TB initiative and allow her to use 4-D Pocket on him. That's IT. He IS that powerful.
And thanks for clearing up the Nyx plot stuff. That all does sound familiar now.
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"Not the powerful" should have read "Not unbeatable to me if you disallow the initiative and fusion fun" >_> Bad fast typing on my part makes me forget things.
If you disallow the initiative and don't allow fusion fun, he's beatable - below average HP means he's easier to nuke, and average speed in that case means he can be beaten by anyone faster who can nuke him, especially if he has weaknesses (which means he loses resistances that way if he tries to go with, say, Asparas with no weaknesses). Strikes me as beatable with those assumptions, which is why he is theoretically not that powerful to the point where he's unbeatable.
With those assumptions >_>
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"Not the powerful" should have read "Not unbeatable to me if you disallow the initiative and fusion fun" >_> Bad fast typing on my part makes me forget things.
If you disallow the initiative and don't allow fusion fun, he's beatable - below average HP means he's easier to nuke, and average speed in that case means he can be beaten by anyone faster who can nuke him, especially if he has weaknesses (which means he loses resistances that way if he tries to go with, say, Asparas with no weaknesses). Strikes me as beatable with those assumptions, which is why he is theoretically not that powerful to the point where he's unbeatable.
With those assumptions >_>
Oh, without initiative, he is beatable, yes. Just not by very many people.
And... Minato having weaknesses isn't really a big problem. I think he can wall any given element without having a weakness to any other given element (for example, if someone has fire and ice, he can null fire without having an ice weakness and vice-versa).
Though to be honest? Even without initiative, Minato seems like just a better Ryu5, and he wasn't ranked for similar reasons.
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I realize the point is kind of moot, but what if Minato was only allowed Orpheus and whatever it was that Orpheus upgraded to?
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The interp is possible, Neph, but the idea just highlights how difficult ranking Minato is. It's the same thing as Wyrmless Ryu5, essentially - and it's an interp split that creates an insurmountable divisional abyss.
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Hmmm, almost finished with "The Answer" in FES... so, I think I can stab at this... please note that some characters actually differ a good deal between each.
*OBVIOUS SPOILERS FOR PERSONA 3: FES*
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Main Character - Godlike or DNR. He suffers Blue-like problems in that he has way too many ways to tackle a problem. Determining his Persona in this case is a relative nightmare as there's really nothing he can't get to be a cure to... well, anyone. Physical fighter? Alilat laughs in their face (well, not so much laugh...). Darkness Mage-Fighter? Thanatos destroys them reasonably. Elemental Mage? Take your pick. This is not factoring in the Armageddon duo of Lucifer/Helel and Satan which is horrible in its own right. Add to this his whole initiative deal, and he walks through legions of characters that don't sport readily available invulnerability.
Yukari - Light. Damage output is sort of laughable, and her weakness is fairly easy to access. Skill set doesn't do much to put her ahead of the group as a whole. I think she'd actually want her boss form (Yes, she gets one), where she doesn't die to a sneeze and has reasonable damage.
Junpei - Middle. Spring of Life and High Counter give him longevity, but his fire game is abyssmal. He throws down fairly well with physical tech, and Rakukaja can go a decent way. He's actually not too bad as a dueller.
Akihiko - Middle. Solid damage with Elec Amp and Ziodyne. His physical attack is also good thanks to Fist Master along with Diarahan makes him solid overall. The weakness could be a killer and holding him back, however. His debuffs add a nice dimension to things.
Mitsuru - Middle. Same deal with Akihiko. Solid damage, but with more status and less debuff. Weakness is also holding her back, but at least she has access to full healing. Her boss form is suffocating (Near one hit KO territory on a Mind Charged Megidolaonn) and could pull Heavy.
Aigis - Middle. Her resistance could theoretically end a few matches before they begin. She has buffs and decent endurance. Elec Weakness hurts horribly, however. Also comes with healing, but doesn't seem nearly as potent as the previous two. Haven't really experimented with her Orgia Mode as much as I would like to, but the increase in damage is nice... wishes she had elemental damage. "The Answer" version of her is a toned down "I Have Access to All Persona" MC (Minato) with no Mix Raids. DNR her second form is my opinion.
Koromaru - Heavy. A lot can change in between versions. His fire damage is still solid, and his AGI score makes sure he's going to hit. High Counter and high HP allow him to tank it out, while Sukukaja aids the dodging and striking. The biggest gem is that he now gets more dependable Instant Death with the addition of Mudo Boost. He's more or less a turn 2 or 3 KO if the opponent isn't resistant to Darkness. Tir McDohl doesn't want to fight him.
Ken - Middle-High. Haven't played as much as with Koromaru, but he gets similar treatment. His Instant Death gets bolstered by Hama Boost, but his Elec game is bad. Restorative healing is good, but expensive. Less exciting as well. His is more likely to get smacked by a Darkness wielder, however.
Metis - Middle-High. No weaknesses and high damage output. Orgia Mode lasts for a good four turns before backlashing on her horribly, but most matches aren't going to last long enough for that to matter. Brave Blade is good damage when boosted, and her critical hit rate is good enough come into play as a factor.
Chidori - Light. Yeah, she dies way too fast, but her Tetrakarn game can probably screw with fighters at her level. Spring of Life and this make her a fun duelist if only for futility's sake.
Jin - Middle. Was thinking of Heavy, but... nah. If his weakness game transfers into the RPGDL, he can be pretty lethal. Has access to some instant death and status, but nothing that I really felt writing home about. Though hearing him ***** about you covering up all your weaknesses is funny and sad at the same time.
Takaya - ???. Frankly, I never really let him live long enough to do anything truly noteworthy to me.
Nyx Avatar - Godlike. Form buffering gives it a lot of options, and most people who specialize in an element will eventually get stuck on a certain element or a physical resistance. Barring this, Nyx Avatar goes into Death Form and nukes the opposition. Night Queen is horrible almighty damage with random status attached, and Moonless Gown is perfect defense. Good enough to run with the Godlike division.
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Rank - Akihiho, Mitsuru, Yukari, Junpei, Koromaru, Ken, Aegis, Shinji, Strega, Nyx Avatar.
DNR- Minato, Fuuka. Bad OK, bad.
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There are plenty of DL games where characters aren't allowed access to all of their options. Aftergame weapons and armor are especially noteworthy. Assigning characters a skillset based on plot claims isn't far-fetched either, look at Golden Sun for a good example. In P3, all of the characters except for Minato (and Aigis in FES) only have one persona (sort of), so only allowing Minato his initial persona Orpheus (and its relatives) isn't all that farfetched to me. I'd support this toned-down version of Minato myself, it still makes him a decent dueller, he's just not so obviously Bluelike this way. Leaving him unranked just doesn't sit right with me, and it's surprising how unwilling everyone is to rank him this way considering all of the other special cases duellers we have in the DL. People keep likening him to Ryu5 because he's an overpowered main, but steps have been taken in many cases to qualify duellers (usually in the stat topics) to make them rankable. SaGa, Golden Sun, VP1, any ARPG - all of these duellers are based on a widely-held interpretation. Some people don't follow these interps (I'm sure there's a few casual dullers who vote such that Tales characters can just infinitely dodge all attacks), but the majority of the voters take the time to learn the common interpretations. If everyone could come to some loose kind of agreement on one interpretation of Minato (whether it be enforcing no fusions or just forcing him to use Orpheus or whatever), then there's not going to be this 'huge upset' that everyone's worried about. I honestly feel this way abou Ryu5, too.
So I would vote for a Orpheus-only Minato, and I would only vote on the cast from P3, FES is just a good excuse for more people to have exposure to the game. All PCs, with Shinjiro being scaled to endgame, plus Chidori-Jin-Takaya. I suppose Nyx Avatar would make a good High Godlike, and we -have- been trying to get more of those.
And after saying all that about allowability, I'd feel bad saying no to Fuuka. ...well, I suppose she would make a HILARIOUS joke Puny. If not, then she's awesome NR-bait!
-Djinn
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DL games where people don't get all their options are because they aren't unique (or unique enough) options. But a fully unique option=fully legal generally always (Can't think of anything to go against that minus something like Mana Sword which is dependent on 2 PCs). You really couldn't force the Orpheus upgrade only onto voters, and you'd get colossal votesplit.
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There are plenty of DL games where characters aren't allowed access to all of their options. Aftergame weapons and armor are especially noteworthy. Assigning characters a skillset based on plot claims isn't far-fetched either, look at Golden Sun for a good example. In P3, all of the characters except for Minato (and Aigis in FES) only have one persona (sort of), so only allowing Minato his initial persona Orpheus (and its relatives) isn't all that farfetched to me. I'd support this toned-down version of Minato myself, it still makes him a decent dueller, he's just not so obviously Bluelike this way. Leaving him unranked just doesn't sit right with me, and it's surprising how unwilling everyone is to rank him this way considering all of the other special cases duellers we have in the DL. People keep likening him to Ryu5 because he's an overpowered main, but steps have been taken in many cases to qualify duellers (usually in the stat topics) to make them rankable. SaGa, Golden Sun, VP1, any ARPG - all of these duellers are based on a widely-held interpretation. Some people don't follow these interps (I'm sure there's a few casual dullers who vote such that Tales characters can just infinitely dodge all attacks), but the majority of the voters take the time to learn the common interpretations. If everyone could come to some loose kind of agreement on one interpretation of Minato (whether it be enforcing no fusions or just forcing him to use Orpheus or whatever), then there's not going to be this 'huge upset' that everyone's worried about. I honestly feel this way abou Ryu5, too.
Minato's personas are ALL unique. There's no reason to not allow them unless you just want to arbitrarily nerf duellers who are too good, which makes... no sense at all. Hey, you're too Godlike so now you're a Middle. Yeah, no.
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For that matter, technicallly speaking Minato recieves no 'upgrade' ever. While Orpheus Telos does exist (in FES), it's meant to be incredibly hard to get, not something handed to you. So saying "only Orpheus" turns a Bluelike into a Puny (Orpheus is really, really bad by endgame. Tier one moves are suck and multiple weaknesses to boot). Uh yeah, no thanks.
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I'm not saying that 'Orpheus-only' Minato is the only way to interpret this, it's just the interp I thought would work.
You could just as easily limit it to non-fusion Personas. This would give him a lot more options, but would take away a bit of his power. It's not like there's no precedent for this sort of thing, either. Plenty of voters don't allow Item Synthesis equips or other hard-to-get equips (Like Ryu3's GooKingSword) and some people only allow storebought equipment. I suppose you can argue that *all* Personas are easy-to-get, though.
What I'm saying is that all of the duellers at the DL are just interpretations that the group commonly holds, based on the game systems/stats/skillsets. If there was enough demand for it, the common interps work themselves out - look at VP, SaGa, Star Ocean 3!
One generally held interp at the DL is that anything unique to a single character tends to be legal, but there are exceptions to even that rule. Minato just happens to be on the fortunate (or unfortunate if it makes him unrankable) end of that interpretation. By that same token, hard-to-get equipment is often thrown out by many voters, even if it's completely unique (BoF3). Minato could just as easily be on the fortunate (or unfortunate) end of this rule, too.
Why not look at how different interps could effect Minato? What would his skillset look like with only non-fusion Personas? With only 'storebought' Personas? What if he could only pick one Persona per battle?
The Orpheus-only option just struck me as having the highest precedent. Like how Golden Sun characters just get all of the Djinni of their respective element, despite being able to equip -any- Djinni, or how FFVII characters get their starting Materia at max levels for their only Materia options.
Finding a suitable 'interp-range' just seems better than throwing him out off-hand.
-Djinn
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No-Fusion would be... uh, hopelessly random and counter-intuitive. Aside from Orpheus all Personae available outside fusion are essentially random drops (though really it's always, always better to just fuse them), and honestly I couldn't tell you what all Persona do drop, let alone how good a dueller that would make him. Offhand it probably... makes him the biggest spoiler Heavy has ever seen? But maybe not.
but serioulsy, anything of endgame level has to be fused. If you're trying to say only allowing Fool-arcana stuff (which fits the Golden Sun example)... uh, I guess that's something that at least makes him reasonable to interperate, and Fool's diversity at least doesn't completely misrepresent his in-game performance. Hell, Susano-O may well be one of his go-to personae (it has a 1-time reraise passive skill). For all that's still really missing the point of "every single Persona not on the other PCs is unique to him".
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You'd never be able to get a standardized view that would make him rankable because by the rules we typically go by, he's unrankable to most. There is no way that this could be gotten around. Changing how the rules apply to everyone else just for one dueller to make him rankable (But at the same time, perhaps create an extremely massive vote split) is just not something that's feasible. We didn't rank Ryu 5 for such reasons, and doesn't he need to actually get his turn to access his evilness? Minato has initiative to many.
The item synthesis that's usually not allowed is because the items aren't too unique. Items that are unique and even semi unique are often allowed (Elemental Armor in SO 3 stands out as something notable). It's not that it's item synthesis that's the problem, so much as the uniqueness.
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For that matter, technicallly speaking Minato recieves no 'upgrade' ever. While Orpheus Telos does exist (in FES), it's meant to be incredibly hard to get, not something handed to you. So saying "only Orpheus" turns a Bluelike into a Puny (Orpheus is really, really bad by endgame. Tier one moves are suck and multiple weaknesses to boot). Uh yeah, no thanks.
I think common sense would make it all Orpheus-based persona. So uh, Orpheus, Thanatos(Obvious reasons + Artbook), and Messiah(Fusion of his two plot persona + Artbook)
Though it's still silly to limit him like that. The only limitation which really makes sense to me is not giving him personas above endgame levels(Which in my case at least meant no Armageddon, but this would obviously vary for others) As far as I know, the only persona that nulls everything is NG+(Or at least so damn hard to get on the first run that it might as well be), so while he is certainly tough to beat, it's not impossible as long as your skillset is varied enough.
Nyx Avatar... I don't see any problem with him. He doesn't spam Moonless Gown infinitely in the fight, so I don't see him doing it here either. He's still Godlike, but certainly not unbeatable.
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No Persona nulls everything. Orpheus Telos is insane to get in a first playthrough (max all S.Links) and probably what you're thinking of, but is actually just Strong: All, and generally designed to tackle the optional superboss (she will cast Armageddon if you have too many Nulls, basically). It's a neat Pesona in its own right, but not infinite ownage or anything.
and... as I recall, despite the opening cinema, Thanatos has nothing to do with Orpheus in a gameplay capacity, except that they are fused to make Messiah. But I don't think either are really things you're likely to use in-game very much, although in Messiah's case that's more accessability I guess? Eh, the other persona that high in level (Read: Lucifer) are better.
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Moonless Gown would get the same general treatment that boss invincibility moves usually get: A one turn break in between using it. It's how Berle isn't our best dueller and such. Nyx...is certainly more rankable than Minato, but as we've seen, those multi part SMT bosses with shit HP in between forms can be problematic. P3 isn't going to have the best of draws, and the general type of dueller Nyx is would likely only fit with a killer draw (Because it would be seriously annoying with those mass of build up shit forms that could serve as spoiler to a lot...although not too many if someone has decent physicals and magic, I think).
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The only person who beats initiative Minato with Armageddon is Belial, and that's ONLY if you view high CTB speed as faster than TB initiative and allow her to use 4-D Pocket on him.
For the record? I think Lambda spoils Initiative Armageddon as a strategy. Not to say if he actually beats Minato, but he's certainly puts a wrench to that.
My views on this...
Basically rank all the PC sans Minato. You either take Minato as restricted to the three max level Personae he will always get (Thanatos/Susano-O/Messiah) which is an "Arbitrary" nerf. Or, you give him every option available and he comes god incarnate (read: Unrankable high godlike). Seems pretty simple there.
DNR Nyx. Moonlight Gown is dumb, but its not as dumb as Night Queen which is just retarded beyond belief. As for Takaya and Jin? Sure. I'm not fan of them (boring, not really memorable and all that good stuff), but they have plot at least. Same with Chidori.
On that note, the talk of ranking Nyx makes me wonder more on why ranking Volsung who also basically rides on an unintuitive mechanic should be DNR'd. He's beatable; just make sure he doesn't get a turn or kill him before he moves. Which I am fairly certain a few godlike can do. IQA is a different story though.
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The fact that 'every Persona in the game is unique to Minato' is almost an argument against in my mind. The Persona fusion/evolution/switching feels more like it's a part of the game's system than anything inherent to Minato himself. This is especially true when you look at FES, where Aigis can do the exact same thing. It's just that whoever is the main character gets to evoke lots of different personas, it doesn't change the fact that Aigis' main alignment is The Chariot, just like Minato is still primarily tied to the Fool personae (And Thanatos\Messiah, I suppose).
-Djinn
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What would his skillset look like with only non-fusion Personas?
Fusion personas are still unique to Minato. Throwing them out seems, again, arbitrary nerfing.
In this case, he is able to immune just about everything, has good stats and skills, and all kinds of stuff. Still has initiative. Not quite Bluelike but definitely a great Godlike.
With only 'storebought' Personas?
...storebought...personas? Did you play the game? All personas are either storebought or not depending on how you look at it. You can buy them in the compendium IFF you've gotten them from a random drop first. This interp doesn't even make sense.
What if he could only pick one Persona per battle?
Come in with Lucifer, initiative, Armageddon. This doesn't change him at all.
The Orpheus-only option just struck me as having the highest precedent. Like how Golden Sun characters just get all of the Djinni of their respective element, despite being able to equip -any- Djinni, or how FFVII characters get their starting Materia at max levels for their only Materia options.
I think you're missing the point. Those are done like that because everyone in the cast can equip these things. They aren't unique, therefore, not allowed.
Finding a suitable 'interp-range' just seems better than throwing him out off-hand.
This is kind of misunderstanding what an interp is, I think (or I am, in which case I apologize in advance). When you interp a character, you figure out how you see a character by what rules you've already set for other characters in the DL. You don't change interps from character to character. Allowing Fei Yamikei even though it's past endgame levels, but not allowing Minato past endgame levels personas, for example. If you allow Yamikei, you allow the overlevelled personas. You don't decide "oh, Yamikei isn't broken so I'll allow it but Minato's overlevelled personas are so I won't". It just doesn't work that way.
Above all, the DL, the one thing views should have is consistency. What you're suggesting is to take Minato with a view that is NOT consistent with how lots of people view the DL. If it's consistent with your view, fine! If it's not, shame on you.
Though it's still silly to limit him like that. The only limitation which really makes sense to me is not giving him personas above endgame levels(Which in my case at least meant no Armageddon, but this would obviously vary for others) As far as I know, the only persona that nulls everything is NG+(Or at least so damn hard to get on the first run that it might as well be), so while he is certainly tough to beat, it's not impossible as long as your skillset is varied enough.
Just noting, if you don't allow Minato's overlevelled persona, you better not allow Terra's Ultima, etc.
And you can fuse a persona that nulls everything but Almighty in the maingame, IIRC.
Moonless Gown would get the same general treatment that boss invincibility moves usually get: A one turn break in between using it. It's how Berle isn't our best dueller and such. Nyx...is certainly more rankable than Minato, but as we've seen, those multi part SMT bosses with shit HP in between forms can be problematic. P3 isn't going to have the best of draws, and the general type of dueller Nyx is would likely only fit with a killer draw (Because it would be seriously annoying with those mass of build up shit forms that could serve as spoiler to a lot...although not too many if someone has decent physicals and magic, I think).
For one thing, I didn't even know about this "treatement" of boss invincibility. Is it really that common or just your view? I'm curious.
Honestly, I'm not sure how to treat it, but "one turn break" sounds kind of arbitrary.
Also, note that Berle is from an ARPG game. He doesn't actually get "turns" in-game. So you can just view his invincibility as wearing off after he acts, and therefore cannot be reapplied until his next turn. There's not really an indication otherwise, IIRC.
As for Nyx Avatar, when it wears off is clearly indicated (it takes up his turn, actually, but he doubleacts). As such, I'm not inclined to arbitrarily nerf him and say he has to wait a turn. Unless I was to go the "boss must always follow AI always" route, in which case... he can still spam it sometimes but not always or something.
I'd have to think on this some more I guess.
And according to Pyro, Night Queen pierces full status immunity. I think you can null single statuses of it normally though. So Nyx Avatar is still pretty much unrankable anyways.
The fact that 'every Persona in the game is unique to Minato' is almost an argument against in my mind. The Persona fusion/evolution/switching feels more like it's a part of the game's system than anything inherent to Minato himself. This is especially true when you look at FES, where Aigis can do the exact same thing. It's just that whoever is the main character gets to evoke lots of different personas, it doesn't change the fact that Aigis' main alignment is The Chariot, just like Minato is still primarily tied to the Fool personae (And Thanatos\Messiah, I suppose).
I'm sorry, but bullshit.
Read the plot. The game explicitly says that this is Minato's power. That no one else can do it. Aigis inherited the power in FES.
If there was no plot backing, then maaaaybe you'd have an argument (though I doubt I'd buy it anyways, since a lot of games have unique mechanics that are allowed in the DL, though I don't know how many apply to single characters).
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Could be that's not the standard boss pure Invincibility interp view and it has never again come up, but I believe that's how most people take it.
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Could be that's not the standard boss pure Invincibility interp view and it has never again come up, but I believe that's how most people take it.
Aside from Berle, who has ARPG crap, has it come up for anyone else ever?
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Fusion personas are still unique to Minato. Throwing them out seems, again, arbitrary nerfing.
In this case, he is able to immune just about everything, has good stats and skills, and all kinds of stuff. Still has initiative. Not quite Bluelike but definitely a great Godlike.
It's not really arbitrary when you consider the number of stat topics that don't include equips made by Synthesis/Alchemy.
The Orpheus-only option just struck me as having the highest precedent. Like how Golden Sun characters just get all of the Djinni of their respective element, despite being able to equip -any- Djinni, or how FFVII characters get their starting Materia at max levels for their only Materia options.
I think you're missing the point. Those are done like that because everyone in the cast can equip these things. They aren't unique, therefore, not allowed.
The point I'm trying to make is that these games are exceptions to the 'standard'.
Finding a suitable 'interp-range' just seems better than throwing him out off-hand.
This is kind of misunderstanding what an interp is, I think (or I am, in which case I apologize in advance). When you interp a character, you figure out how you see a character by what rules you've already set for other characters in the DL. You don't change interps from character to character. Allowing Fei Yamikei even though it's past endgame levels, but not allowing Minato past endgame levels personas, for example. If you allow Yamikei, you allow the overlevelled personas. You don't decide "oh, Yamikei isn't broken so I'll allow it but Minato's overlevelled personas are so I won't". It just doesn't work that way.
This is not what I meant by 'interp'. What I'm referring to are the standards that seem to be set by the stat topics. Once the DL finds one way to interpret something, most people follow that interpretation with little deviance. The BoF3 stat topic doesn't allow Ryu3 the GooKingSword, how many people bother to say 'oh, let's allow that now since I allow Terra Ultima'. The Valkyrie Profile topic allows PCs to build up to their PWSs, despite the solo setting. Golden Sun skillsets aren't disputed, but they are wildly variable in-game. Sure, these are old topics, but that means the majority of people don't dispute them, and the games are workable as a result. Newer topics like DQ8 give voters multiple options when deciding how to interpret, but they still offer an 'optimum' view that most people tend to follow, with generally only small disagreements here and there.
Yes, I see that ranking Minato might lead to some people voting on him as unbeatable, but if the standard is such that he's -not- considered invincible, that problem's not really there.
The fact that 'every Persona in the game is unique to Minato' is almost an argument against in my mind. The Persona fusion/evolution/switching feels more like it's a part of the game's system than anything inherent to Minato himself. This is especially true when you look at FES, where Aigis can do the exact same thing. It's just that whoever is the main character gets to evoke lots of different personas, it doesn't change the fact that Aigis' main alignment is The Chariot, just like Minato is still primarily tied to the Fool personae (And Thanatos\Messiah, I suppose).
I'm sorry, but bullshit.
Read the plot. The game explicitly says that this is Minato's power. That no one else can do it. Aigis inherited the power in FES.
If there was no plot backing, then maaaaybe you'd have an argument (though I doubt I'd buy it anyways, since a lot of games have unique mechanics that are allowed in the DL, though I don't know how many apply to single characters).
A lot of voters don't go by plot explanations, using only gameplay as the source of interpretation. You could look at it as if 'only Minato and Aigis' can equip multiple personas, or you can look at it like 'neither of them has unique claim' to all the Personas.
-Djinn
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Zophar-like overkill hype for a PC that's part of an 8-person cast
Am I the first person to point out a problem with this?
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It's a skill that costs 100% MSP to cast. But yes, I think everyone understands that taking him against the rest of the cast destroys them (this is true even without Armageddon, he still deals double average damage or better with multiple other Personae.)
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My post is about Minato himself.
8 person cast = their damage outputs add up to be 8x average. It is not POSSIBLE for Minato to go above that. A 3 turn average makes him chafe not quite as hard, but there's still going to be godlikes who can live through an armageddon.
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It's not really arbitrary when you consider the number of stat topics that don't include equips made by Synthesis/Alchemy.
If said Synthesis/Alchemy is unique to the character, then it should be there. If that is true and the stuff's not in the topic? Then I disagree with the topic and wish the topic creator lots of psyducks. And will go allow it.
The point I'm trying to make is that these games are exceptions to the 'standard'.
But... they aren't. The standard is we allow unique stuff. That stuff isn't unqiue. Therefore we don't allow it. I honestly don't see what the problem is here.
This is not what I meant by 'interp'. What I'm referring to are the standards that seem to be set by the stat topics. Once the DL finds one way to interpret something, most people follow that interpretation with little deviance. The BoF3 stat topic doesn't allow Ryu3 the GooKingSword, how many people bother to say 'oh, let's allow that now since I allow Terra Ultima'. The Valkyrie Profile topic allows PCs to build up to their PWSs, despite the solo setting. Golden Sun skillsets aren't disputed, but they are wildly variable in-game. Sure, these are old topics, but that means the majority of people don't dispute them, and the games are workable as a result. Newer topics like DQ8 give voters multiple options when deciding how to interpret, but they still offer an 'optimum' view that most people tend to follow, with generally only small disagreements here and there.
Well, no one says you have to follow the stat topic. If you have some weird views that make characters different than the stat topic suggests, well, don't use the stat topic. Make your own if you want. HOWEVER, your view better be consistant throughout the DL. Like I said, if one of those interps you brought up (or any other that makes Minato rankable) fits with your views of the DL in general, that's fine. Then vote on it. Vote to rank Minato as Godlike. Or Light. Or whatever. But trying to convince others to use an interp that is against their views of the DL? That ain't happening. And since the common view of the DL, not Persona 3 alone makes Minato unrankable, you shouldn't be surprised that most of us are going to vote for him to not be ranked.
Yes, I see that ranking Minato might lead to some people voting on him as unbeatable, but if the standard is such that he's -not- considered invincible, that problem's not really there.
Well, the "standard", as you put it, is generally not something someone just makes up for the game. It's how the most common views of the DL would interp the game. I think you're viewing this all backwards. Views of the DL as a whole begets interp of a game.
Though there are cases where stat topic creators try to set a standard that is only their views, which don't coincide with the common opinion. For one thing, I don't think OK did this at all. In fact, I had started the game before he did and came to the same conclusions for the most part. For another thing, if people do weird stuff in the topic and people don't agree with it? They generally post in the stat topic saying as such and putting their own notes for their own views. Or just make a whole new stat topic. It's not even that uncommon a practice. As such, I don't think a "standard" forcing people to adopt a view is a problem, since most people would just decide whether or not they agree with the standard.
A lot of voters don't go by plot explanations, using only gameplay as the source of interpretation. You could look at it as if 'only Minato and Aigis' can equip multiple personas, or you can look at it like 'neither of them has unique claim' to all the Personas.
Well, we do go by gameplay, not plot for the most part. But when you try to write off things by saying "it's not Minato, it's a part of the game", when there IS proof that it IS Minato, then uh. Yeah. That's not working. It IS Minato. The game proves this.
As for the argument against it not being unique? Well, for one thing, they are CLEARLY unique in vanilla P3 (which is the one up for ranking, not FES, not to mention that most people played that version), since The Answer doesn't exist. In FES, Minato is the only one who can use them while he is a PC, therefore they are unique to him. The closest example is the claws in FF4, where Yang is the only one who can use them while he's around. Edge is the only one that can use them at endgame. However, the uniqueness is stronger in P3, since The Answer is basically a whole new game, whereas all of FF4 is one game.
The argument goes the other way as well for Aigis. She's the only one that can use them until the end. The argument's weaker this time around, since this is AFTER Minato already used them (and doesn't have the benefit of having a version without The Journey), but I still think it's incredibly sound.
My post is about Minato himself.
8 person cast = their damage outputs add up to be 8x average. It is not POSSIBLE for Minato to go above that. A 3 turn average makes him chafe not quite as hard, but there's still going to be godlikes who can live through an armageddon.
Hurhur contradictions.
3 turn average + 8 person cast = their damage output adds up to 24x average over 3 turns. THEREFORE, it is not possible for Minato to do more than 24x average damage on turn 1.
24x average damage is almost 10 PCHP, which... I don't think any Godlike survives that much damage, especially since it's ITD/ITE.
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1) Mitsuru - 273 (Bufudyne)
2) Akihiko - 249 (Ziodyne)
3) Koromaru - 234 (Agidyne)
[Shinjiro - 195 (Strike Attack)]
7) Yukari - 187 (Garudyne)
5) Ken - 178 (Pierce Attack)
6) Junpei - 174 (Slash Attack)
8) Aigis - 145 (Pierce Attack)
So the other 7 PCs together deal 1440. Armageddon deals 9999. Even taking a three-turn... Minato uses his other two turns for 193 damage physicals for 3462 average damge per turn... Aigis' damage would double due to Orgia Mode in a three turn, so... 1585 for total other PC output, and you get an average of 631 roughly. 9999/631/2.5 rounds out to roughly 6.3x PCHP damage.
Um... some people might respect Myria 1 that much? Maybe? Yeah.
Edit: fixing math.
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And you can fuse a persona that nulls everything but Almighty in the maingame, IIRC.
Doesn't that require skill inheritance?
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@ Tal: Fair enough. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by people's reactions to Minato. I just wanted to share my views on the subject and open up some discourse on it. I'm still not sure I'd allow Minato access to all Persona under my views, since I'm not sure whether to liken Persona to equipment or skills yet, or whether I should include FES in my own view. However, if Minato -would- be allowed access to Armageddon+initiative, then yes, he seems to be a pretty unrankable Bluelike.
As for the math: Cmdr, did you decide to not include Minato in the average? You'd think his damage would inflate the average significantly? As is, he's... 7x Average? What's the average kill point of endgame enemies?
-Djinn
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I deleted him from the listed average because I was making an Armageddon average, and incuding him twice would be silly. For the three turn average he was assumed to be dealing 9999+193+193 (Armageddon plus 2 Thantos physicals, his damage in topic's average).
I don't honesty hold with using moves like Armageddon in averages even when calcualting the damage of those moves, but that's clearly what Monkey was referring to so there it is. It's still Fate Storm-tastic.
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Doesn't that require skill inheritance?
Yes. Don't think it was incredibly difficult to do, but if you don't allow that then whatever.
'
Even without it, he can null various combinations of attacks, enough to screw up lots of people. I don't know exactly which so I can't say how effective it is other than kneejerking "damn effective".
@ Tal: Fair enough. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by people's reactions to Minato. I just wanted to share my views on the subject and open up some discourse on it. I'm still not sure I'd allow Minato access to all Persona under my views, since I'm not sure whether to liken Persona to equipment or skills yet, or whether I should include FES in my own view. However, if Minato -would- be allowed access to Armageddon+initiative, then yes, he seems to be a pretty unrankable Bluelike.
Well it's not like other interps have never been considered. It's just that.. most of them don't fit most peoples views. For the record, we've talked about this in chat before the topic came up to, so you may have missed that stuff.
Also, I'd view Personas more like equipment, especially since uh, they HAVE skills. And stats. But this is a weird case and... I can sorta see the argument for them being skill-like but I don't agree with it until someone can convince me otherwise.
Also, CK forgot to mention there that Armageddon's damage is ITD, so even Jade and Myria may fall to it since they have badass defenses, making their durability seem higher in general.
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I think if you allow the HP draining skills, the damage goes up a bit? He has God Hand to use in that case (and with Arms Master, he's not losing all that much HP per cast) and certainly bumps his 3 turn damage up a bit.
Regardless, Pyro already mentioned this, but Minato has loads of other ways of getting that turn without initiative (Enduring Soul/Unshaken Will/blocking damage with various Personae). So even without it, he's still pretty damn ridiculous (then considering this is also in a game where most items used in battle are unique to Minato (ie:he's the only person that is going to use them)....yeah).
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If you take out Armageddon from damage averages, he still has other Mixraids that do considerable damage (I believe Thunder Call is one of them). He also has a highly effective Charm manuever (Dreamfest for Succubus + Incubus), not to mention invulnerability for a turn (Odin + Valkyrie and Vishnu + Ananta). Aigis wishes she had access to Mixraids (Or Social Links for that matter).
It should be a given that Minato doesn't get skill inheritance. It's far too much of a variable and we're already having a hard enough time narrowing him down on his basics. Besides, he's still bull**** without them. A similar answer on Item usage... we don't need to make him cheesier with the added benefits of Soma (Full HP/MP restoration) or... *shudder* Plume of Dusk (Revival after death). Otherwise, look forward to the following situation: Armageddon > Soma > Armageddon > Soma...
As it stands, however, if we do in fact rank Minato, who exactly would be able to give him a run for his money (given all things are equal and voters aren't simply pandering to fan favorites)? Yuna... maybe? Lady? Just a thought...
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Mitsuru for Heavy! Mind Charged Megidolaonn FTW!!
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People that might beat Minato..,
Without Armegeddon and/or Initiative, there's quite a few. But since the trend is to allow Armageddon and initiative...
Maybe no one? Myria, Jade, Ghaleon, Xorn, Lady, Lambda, Belial, AtL Invincibility users, Kefka, and Yuna seem like the likely candidates., but most of them are pretty easily taken out by Minato having initiative. Maybe Zio (?!) if you allow his initial invincibility! *chuckles* If Armageddon can't kill multipart bosses, then maybe Profound Darkness?
Even if Minato doesn't have initiative, he still has access to 'null everything' Persona without inheirtance, doesn't he?
Without Armageddon, though, the list becomes signifcantly longer. He can no longer OHKO most of Godlike, even -with- gamebest damage. He still has plenty of damage-nulling, stat-boosting, and status-inducing nastiness at his disposal, plus initiative.
Doesn't strike me as -completely- unrankable, but he's Ghaleon/Myria/Yuna-level or higher.
-Djinn
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'Null everything' requires inheritance; I think that strong against all, or nulling three or four attack types at best are what he gets without it. Still, Lambda's got Blue Destiny to null Armageddon, but... I'm thinking that Minato might have something that still beats him. Um... would his initiative beat initiative moves like Overdrive?
Suffice to say, Minato seems pretty DNR if even his potential spoilers might not beat him. Nyx Avatar... eh, still waiting to see how the invincibility thing goes down, otherwise it's not too bad. Minato though... ew. With initiative and full Persona access, he's probably just about the most unbeatable PC ever, unless of course you allow multi-part boss HP buffering, and even then most multi-part bosses fall apart to other strategies, I'm thinking. There are reasonable interps to rank him under, but plenty of people would have to give him special treatment for it to work, and a character that's bluelike to half the DL probably doesn't belong.
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Minato is such a mess in the DL that we aren't going to rank him. There is no way in hell we'll get 66% approval for a character considered Bluelike by a significant portion of us. If you want to argue that he COULD be beatable then that is your fancy. You're not convincing people to change interps just to make him rankable. And CERTAINLY not enough people to rank him. It just ain't happening.
Best to give up on that. The big argument remaining for him is how he should be taken into the averages for the other PCs.
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Simple, don't. As is, Minato throws the averages WAY off with a 9999 attack in a crowd that struggles to break 300 or so. You'd get better damage results if you take him out of the equation of rankings. Otherwise, you'd be getting far shoddier damage results (though I guess Fuuka would sort of help counter-balance... but you know, not by much).
But this is assuming we don't rank Minato, which may in fact be the safer option. Nyx Avatar is a beast, but not totally undefeatable (the invincibility is infrequent and lasts about a turn, while Night Queen I think is still blockable with Tome of the Void/Unshakable Will except for the Poison). I'm also pretty sure that Armageddon doesn't go through form chains...
But also, let's consider this: Armageddon costs Minato's entire SP stock when used. After that, he needs a way of regenerating SP to do anything else spell related. Against form chains, he has a harder time, because he can't simply just spam Armageddon.
If you take away his initiative, dare I say, Yuna and him actually have an interesting duel... that would take forever.
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Idly, I assume Minato's stats will change (probably significantly) depending on what Persona he equips?
If so, I'd throw him out of the averages entirely. The cast's decently sized without him, so there won't be any average skewing.
Also, Mitsuru would probably be Heavy if she only took 50% extra damage from her weakness. :/
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If you take out Armageddon from damage averages, he still has other Mixraids that do considerable damage (I believe Thunder Call is one of them). He also has a highly effective Charm manuever (Dreamfest for Succubus + Incubus), not to mention invulnerability for a turn (Odin + Valkyrie and Vishnu + Ananta). Aigis wishes she had access to Mixraids (Or Social Links for that matter).
I don't think he even NEEDS fusion spells to have nutsy damage even. Still, yeah, he's got some pretty nutsy fusion spells to play around with.
Also, S.Links don't really do much DL-wise. Unless I'm mistaken and Aigis can't access the max S.Link personas? Thought she could.
It should be a given that Minato doesn't get skill inheritance. It's far too much of a variable and we're already having a hard enough time narrowing him down on his basics. Besides, he's still bull**** without them. A similar answer on Item usage... we don't need to make him cheesier with the added benefits of Soma (Full HP/MP restoration) or... *shudder* Plume of Dusk (Revival after death). Otherwise, look forward to the following situation: Armageddon > Soma > Armageddon > Soma...
Skill inheritence seems like it SHOULD be allowed, honestly. Again, it's something unique to him, not hard to do in most cases, not obscure, and even a big factor in-game. Now, how MUCH skill inheritence to allow is a different story. One generation? Three? It's annoying to do, yes, but it's something that he has legal access to.
But it's definitely not an issue I'd really push, since it is such a pain in the ass to consider, like you said.
For items... I imagine he's going to get the same treatment as other mains who are the only ones who can use items, i.e., not allowed them. I'm not sure how I feel on them yet, myself.
As it stands, however, if we do in fact rank Minato, who exactly would be able to give him a run for his money (given all things are equal and voters aren't simply pandering to fan favorites)? Yuna... maybe? Lady? Just a thought...
Maybe no one? Myria, Jade, Ghaleon, Xorn, Lady, Lambda, Belial, AtL Invincibility users, Kefka, and Yuna seem like the likely candidates., but most of them are pretty easily taken out by Minato having initiative. Maybe Zio (?!) if you allow his initial invincibility! *chuckles* If Armageddon can't kill multipart bosses, then maybe Profound Darkness?
Myria and Jade have arguments for surviving Armageddon, but I don't think I buy them. And even then, Minato can null their big damages, so he may just slugfest them down REGARDLESS (remember, he has variety, so he doesn't HAVE to just win with Armageddon). Ghaleon gets eaten by initiative, Xorn doesn't kill before Minato goes even if he was average speed, Lady he just Armageddons and tanks the deathcounter, Lambda... he probably just beats in a slugfest I think? Belial goes first and 4D Pockets him if you see high CTB speed > TB initiative and don't allow Minato to block 4D Pocket somehow (I think he had stuff to block status? Dunno, but there's always a Homonculus argument or something), AtL Invincibility users get owned by initiative or Minato just outtanks their MP, Kefka gets owned by initiative or nulling his big damage (Ultima is low HP, right?), Yuna also gets owned by initiative (though I think he loses here without, doubt he can beat aeon parade in a slugfest), Zio only wins if you let him win against everything ever due to the invincibility since Minato can just wait and smite later. >.> If you allow HP buffering, there's proof Armageddon doesn't own it in-game (Nyx Avatar), he doesn't OHKO Profound Darkness, but he probably just outslugs it anyways.
So yeah, one person beats him and only under fairly generous interp against him in that match.
'Null everything' requires inheritance; I think that strong against all, or nulling three or four attack types at best are what he gets without it. Still, Lambda's got Blue Destiny to null Armageddon, but... I'm thinking that Minato might have something that still beats him. Um... would his initiative beat initiative moves like Overdrive?
To me, Minato's initiative is pretty weak. I'd probably say it goes after every other initiative I can think of (and if you think it beats CTB initiative I just hit you with a teddy bear in the face).
Which means that Timelord probably beats Minato, assuming he has some non-elemental damage that doesn't suck.
Best to give up on that. The big argument remaining for him is how he should be taken into the averages for the other PCs.
Simple, don't. As is, Minato throws the averages WAY off with a 9999 attack in a crowd that struggles to break 300 or so. You'd get better damage results if you take him out of the equation of rankings. Otherwise, you'd be getting far shoddier damage results (though I guess Fuuka would sort of help counter-balance... but you know, not by much).
I disagree. He's a PC just like everyone else, and thus should be taken into the averages. However, since I don't use a 3-turn and don't use OPB moves in averages, he doesn't wreck the damage curve that much anyways.
And haha putting Fuuka in averages. >.>
But this is assuming we don't rank Minato, which may in fact be the safer option. Nyx Avatar is a beast, but not totally undefeatable (the invincibility is infrequent and lasts about a turn, while Night Queen I think is still blockable with Tome of the Void/Unshakable Will except for the Poison). I'm also pretty sure that Armageddon doesn't go through form chains...
Moonless Gown lasts four three of Nyx Avatar's turns, but he doubleacts, so it's... 1.5. And under some interps he can just spam it (I've seen him do it in-game, so). And you're right, Armageddon doesn't go through form chains, provided they're HP buffered (which most are I believe).
But also, let's consider this: Armageddon costs Minato's entire SP stock when used. After that, he needs a way of regenerating SP to do anything else spell related. Against form chains, he has a harder time, because he can't simply just spam Armageddon.
Harder time, yes, but not a difficult time in several cases. He can still null any type of damage except non-elemental, and generally multiple at once. He has fullhealing, good damage, buffs, etc. He's still damn good in a slugfest regardless, and beats out most form chains.
Also to note, Jenna beats Minato with form chain. I guess that's three people who spoil Minato.
If you take away his initiative, dare I say, Yuna and him actually have an interesting duel... that would take forever.
I... think Anima has some crazy non-elemental damage, so she just overkills him with that (or heal locks). Though if not, you're right, that does take awhile. Does Minato's SP hold out against aeon parade?
Idly, I assume Minato's stats will change (probably significantly) depending on what Persona he equips?
Minato's base stats are determined solely by which persona he equips. HP/SP are unchanged, and equipment stats are obviously unchanged, but that's it.
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I disagree. He's a PC just like everyone else, and thus should be taken into the averages. However, since I don't use a 3-turn and don't use OPB moves in averages, he doesn't wreck the damage curve that much anyways.
Stat topic uses Thanatos. I'm thinking that for raw stats, an average of his max S. Link personas might work? That might be too much work just to get stats for Minato, but it'd represent him on average fairly well. Damage, I agree on tossing OPB moves. Still leaves a lot of moves (Ragnarok) which hoist the damage average up a lot. I think I like using Thanatos damage here, for all that it isn't... a perfect reflection of his dominance in game, it's still solid. Granted, I think some people tend to throw out stuff like Rolf's Megid from damage averages to keep the entire rest of the cast from being below average? The problem here being how many Personas Minato can choose from, and deciding which attack to use. Ick.
I... think Anima has some crazy non-elemental damage, so she just overkills him with that (or heal locks). Though if not, you're right, that does take awhile. Does Minato's SP hold out against aeon parade?
Pain should OHKO cleanly, and it's typing isn't really distinct. If it wasn't for the initiative, Yuna would win pretty easy with that.
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Granted, I think some people tend to throw out stuff like Rolf's Megid from damage averages to keep the entire rest of the cast from being below average? The problem here being how many Personas Minato can choose from, and deciding which attack to use. Ick.
I hope those people also toss out SH1 Yuri's damage as well, since that also makes everyone else below average. I disagree with that view, but I can see the merits of it.
And yeah, I'd assume a lesser move that can be spammed for Minato's damage in the average. Not sure what that is yet, though.
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The thing is, Minato's damage is so much farther outside the norm that it breaks the averages over his knee. Though I can see your point in removing other grossly outdamaging characters from averages. Perhaps instead of taking account of the mean, we should take into account the median.
Me mentioning S. Links for Aigis was simply just me bemoaning the fact that I have to work to get my Persona up those levels to get their skills instead of fusioning and getting free experience for being nice to the fat kid or whatnot. She can still get the Max S. Link Persona, in fact, she may have an easier time of it, since she doesn't have to do cross, pentagram, or hexagram spreads to get them.
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If Minato's not ranked, doesn't that preclude him from the damage averages in and of itself? I mean, do people include all the FE characters in the FE averages? What about S4? Do people include Monster damage in SaGa averages?
-Djinn
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Just because a character is not ranked doesn't mean they don't exist in their game and in the averages. Unless you want to hype FWs having average stats and average damage.
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If Minato's not ranked, doesn't that preclude him from the damage averages in and of itself? I mean, do people include all the FE characters in the FE averages? What about S4? Do people include Monster damage in SaGa averages?
-Djinn
Actually people do include all FE and suiko characters in the averages regarding rankings. Otherwise, things can end up looking pretty skewed in one direction or another, depending on which particular characters get ranked. Can't speak for SaGa, since I don't pay any attention to it.
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Minato's base stats are determined solely by which persona he equips. HP/SP are unchanged, and equipment stats are obviously unchanged, but that's it.
This sounds like a pretty good reason to throw him out from the averages entirely. Trying to even pin a specific set of stats for him sounds like a mess, and since he's not getting ranked it'd simply matters greatly with no real risk of skewing the averages.
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Minato's base stats are determined solely by which persona he equips. HP/SP are unchanged, and equipment stats are obviously unchanged, but that's it.
This sounds like a pretty good reason to throw him out from the averages entirely. Trying to even pin a specific set of stats for him sounds like a mess, and since he's not getting ranked it'd simply matters greatly with no real risk of skewing the averages.
My thoughts exactly, here. For someone who can change his stats mid-battle no less, I really think he should just be kept out.
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The thing is, Minato's damage is so much farther outside the norm that it breaks the averages over his knee. Though I can see your point in removing other grossly outdamaging characters from averages. Perhaps instead of taking account of the mean, we should take into account the median.
Well, if you start using the medians for every other game as well, that's cool with me. Though I imagine most people would be extremely against that idea. But if you do it for only P3, that's bad. (For the record, I used to take averages with taking out the top and bottom 25% of the characters, which would also work in this case. Probably better than the median at least. I don't do that anymore, though.)
Me mentioning S. Links for Aigis was simply just me bemoaning the fact that I have to work to get my Persona up those levels to get their skills instead of fusioning and getting free experience for being nice to the fat kid or whatnot. She can still get the Max S. Link Persona, in fact, she may have an easier time of it, since she doesn't have to do cross, pentagram, or hexagram spreads to get them.
Fair enough. I haven't actually finished The Answer so I didn't know for sure if she could even get those personas. Would be kind of silly for the developers to leave them out, but they DID take out the compendium for no reason, so it wouldn't surprise me...
(More muttering about The Answer taking out the only remotely nice things about P3 here.)
If Minato's not ranked, doesn't that preclude him from the damage averages in and of itself? I mean, do people include all the FE characters in the FE averages? What about S4? Do people include Monster damage in SaGa averages?
Excuse me as I rant here. This isn't directed at you, though.
Taking only the ranked people in the averages basically makes the ranked people change divisions depending on WHO YOU RANK. As Tonfa said, FWs become average in everything. It also adds bias to the ranking process. "I like X character by ranking Y, Z, and W make X worse so I'm going to DNR them." Yeah, no. This just does not work at all.
That being said, I sure as hell hope people include the not ranked people in averages for FE, S4, etc. SaGa at the moment does NOT include non-ranked people, but I believe super is fixing that. Will be interesting to see what happens.
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Saga's a bit of a fucking headache for other reasons. It's one of the few games where I could completely understand just using a ranked average thanks to how stupid some of the mechanics are. That said I generally agree, full cast averages are the way to go.
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In SaGa's case, we ranked the high end characters (Red, Asellus, and T260G kinda own everyone else statistically due to uniqueness) and didn't rank the filler (cough monsters), so if anything the averages are currently inflated.
And while I'm sympathetic to the damage Minato can do to the average in P3 (he deals 200+ more than Mitsuru's damage with the likes of Surt and Odin, and she's got a sizable lead over most of the cast as-is...), finding some way to include him would be best for the sake of consistency.
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I am pro throwing Minato out of the average. Armaggedon is one thing, he has no default states is another. even you restrict his selection, there is still Messiah and Thanatos to choose from.
I'll make more sense if we do a average of all Personae at level 70 instead just Minato.
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I don't have much to add other than my opinion. Don't include Minato in the averages, and I'm one of the few who supports Minato being as a High Godlike since Armageddon isn't going to beat multi-part bosses or Jade, so he's not totally broken.
Just my two cents.