8
D&D 5e
Second ban-a-thon with different rules
(banning some problem subclasses and spells this time so that they don't make the list weird)
8. Bard
So I mean, is there a case to just ban out remaining martials? Ehhh...there's still artificers and even some Bard subclasses with extra attack, and like...dealing damage with spells sure is a thing too. These options won't deal as much as a monk or a rogue, but they won't be lightyears behind.
But it is worth keeping an eye on damage options still--with the assumption that summons that summon 8+ units being off the table, in addition to that blocking conjure animals, this rule also blocks animate objects, so it is pretty hard for spellcasters to deal single-target damage.
Actually, one sec, I want to check how much of a ranged single target damage dealer Cleric can be with Summon Celestial and a cantrip (Toll the Dead I guess, with Blessed Strikes). Mmm...ok same general ballpark, but slightly less damage than a steady aim rogue, or a gunner Monk staying at range. (Calculated at level 11, although admittedly not using a 6th level slot; 4th or 5th level. Came out about 33 damage).
More damage than a ranged artificer though, lol. And admittedly the versatility is nice--Cleric is mostly about the melee AoE damage, but can switch comfortably to ranged singletarget, and keep up with...well, what's left of the damage builds anyway.
Granted, I did ban warlock earlier in a similar position, but warlock was actually out-damaging fighter for noticeable level stretches, while also getting utility like shoves. Cleric is still dealing less ranged damage than monk/rogue, with a lot less shoving, and it still comes fairly late (level 9--warlock had summons starting at level 5). But it's enough that I don't really think we're looking at monk or rogue for a ban right now.
So...yeah, we're probably looking at a caster then. And...it's probably Bard again for the same reasons as before. Last real motivation to build CHA (having someone in the party with CHA is valuable). Magical Secrets makes them the only place to get...well a lot of spells that are locked out due to previous bans on Warlock/Wizard/Sorcerer, like Counterspell for example. Bardic inspiration is the best remaining way to protect party member saving throws.
9. Druid
With Bard gone there is some real thought about whether Artificer should go next. They are sort-of worse bards, but there's a lot of the same arguments around them. Last way to build INT. Last way to protect party saving throws.
The case for clerics is as follows: they are pretty monstrous early, level 1-4 when their weapon attacks are fine and they get to have spells on top of solid attacks, especially picking something like a Light cleric can really emphasize how good they are at low levels. And they do eventually keep up just fine on ranged damage through stuff like Summon Celestial.
The case for Druids are as follows: clerics tend to be the most straightforward damage dealing of the casters. Not one of them gets Wall of Stone. Only Tempest gets Sleet Storm. Only Trickery gets Polymorph. Only Trickery gets Pass Without Trace. Only Nature Domain gets Plant Growth. Clerics mostly can't teleport party members out of danger--granted most druids can't either, but I'd be inclined to pick up Wildfire Druid in a party like this, and they're teleport city. Clerics are mostly damage dealers, a role that monk and rogue already fill. (Well Clerics heal too, but so do Druids).
Yeah, I find that pretty compelling--despite both being full casters, Druid spends more time doing a more supporting role, which is more of the unique thing that would be hard to replace in this party. Cleric can probably be argued the overall best damage dealer among remaining classes, but that is replaceable at the end of the day.
Actually, worth noting, Druid gets pretty good summon X options from Tasha's. Like...I knew about Summon Beast and Summon Fey, but sort-of wrote them off as not great due to struggling with damage resistances. There's summon elemental too-but that one also seems like it would struggle with damage resistances. But I didn't realize but Druids do get Summon Draconic Spirit from Fizzban's and that one is uh...quite good. Makes a 30 foot cone breath weapon attack on top of the normal attacks for a summon (and you can pick basically any element). Has 3 more AC than a typical Tasha's summon, and 5 damage resistances (you pick from 10 actually). 10 more HP than Summon Celestial. Yeah. Not ranged, granted, and the claws can be resisted, but nonetheless arguably the best summon.
10. Cleric
Is this where I just say "Cleric is the last full caster, and you want a diverse party, so it's the next to go?"
Hmm...I mean, I think Artificers are in the conversation here. Not really because of their spellcasting, I mean, yeah, they get wizard spells like Fly and Haste, but there's no way that would keep up with Cleric--just half caster things where these spells are way less exciting when they use your highest level spell slot at level 9. That said, they do get Web at level 5, and then can infuse Pipes of Haunting at level 6. And can infuse winged boots at level 10. And then at level 11 with spell storing item can have any martial that's not using their concentration concentrate on Web.
And...yeah, that is somewhat compelling, that maybe artificers bring more of what the party is lacking to the table.
But...I think some cleric subclasses just end up bailing out clerics here. Trickery Domain cleric in particular with Polymorph, Dimension Door, Pass Without Trace. Order Domain Cleric brings Slow, and...like...it's not the greatest combo or anything, but Order Domain Cleric can give a reaction attack to a rogue letting them sneak attack a second time, which...there's only four classes left, you probably do have a rogue in the party.
And there's just the part where Clerics are unusually good at low levels, good equipment, getting most of their key spells very early. And outdamaging certainly ranged Artificers once they get Summon Celestial.
And there's the part where AoE damage is certainly a role that is sometimes good to fill, and Cleric fills that role. Not that artificers are without AoE--pipes of haunting is AoE status. Web is AoE status. In the end it's all crowd control and mook clearing. But Spirit Guardians is pretty good at clearing out mooks, and sometimes it's better to kill them than to just hold them in place.
Artificers keep it somewhat close, they do bring a lot of battlefield control support kind of moves, but yeah I think they're still overall outclassed by Clerics.
11. Artificer
They are the one remaining utility and battlefield control source, so just a prime choice to ban next. Monk and Rogue kinda similar to each other so neither ban is all that painful.
12. Monk
Yeah, as discussed in the first list, all-Rogue party just unusually vulnerable, so anything else will get banned before them. And...also as discussed in the first list, Monk fills a lot of the missing roles better--better healer than any monk, better pass without trace bot, better at kiting cause they don't rely on Steady Aim. Have funny tactics with running up walls and across water.
13. Rogue
All Rogue party, if there's ever something preventing them from sneak attacking (attacking at range with disadvantage) are at serious risk of TPK.