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Author Topic: Why do you play?  (Read 3497 times)

Anthony Edward Stark

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Why do you play?
« on: February 22, 2008, 09:24:04 AM »
Well, yeah, I know, for fun, dumbshit. Everyone says that. What I'm more interested in fostering a discussion on is what constitutes fun in your mind.

I, for one, play games because I like the characters, the settings (EarthBound!!!), and the plot (in that order) more than anything else. Most turn-based combat is bland and uninteresting, and I run from combat a lot just to save myself time, but I will put up with them if the game has really good plot, preferably combined with ways to avoid combat (Fallout and FF6 both come to mind).

Also, I enjoy dungeons. Not for the combat (the only RPGs I've ever played where I've actually ENJOYED getting in to fights were Tales of Symphonia, SO3, and to a much lesser extent SO2) but because I like exploration in general. In WoW, for example, I pride myself on having completely mapped every corner of every area in Kalimdor, Azeroth, Khaz Modan, Lordaeron, and Outland. Old-school dungeons, which were like mazes and not this FF7-and-on "the only dead ends have awesome loot, OH YEAH AND HERE'S A FUCKING MAP." stuff. This is secondary to the first entry (VP1 has nice dungeons, platformer-wise, but nonexistent characters and atrocious storytelling, so fuck that game) but still important.

After that: AM I IN TO THE COMBAT? ToS does this really well, and SO3 probably the best of any game I've ever played. Wild Arms 4 was really good in this respect by having each character be distinct and having bosses hit like trains, thus making combat more based in strategy, but more on that game later. But more than anything, SO3. ToS was great once you got good at it, using shortcut commands to party members and such to chain juggle combos together and so on, but SO3... well, as an Albel player, I think it's awesome that you can be virtually untouchable once you get good at playing the game, and how each character is totally unique. And speaking of unique...

Are all the characters unique? My number one problem with games: coat rack syndrome. Customization is well and good... hell, I teach my four characters everything in FF6... but when it doesn't require any work, it's a huge detriment. Take FF7: not only are your characters interchangeable when it comes to abilities, but the game even makes it easy to swap out characters' entire set of abilities with the "Exchange" command. You can't use Cid to steal and he's the guy you like to have steal? Oh no, you have to use someone else. Wild Arms 3 and 5 are also both big offenders in this. On the other hand, most of my favorite games (WA4, SO3) have characters whose abilties are completely unique, or you can make characters fill other roles, but you're putting a square peg in a round hole (FF6... you can make Locke a mage, but you're wasting his good stats and equipment).

And finally: does the game not have Random Bullshit Syndrome? Persona 3 and all the goddamn Fire Emblem games do this, and it pisses me off. "Whoops, some random event came up because you got unlucky. You lose; start over from your last save!" I don't have time to be randomly flogged because the game decided I wasn't being punished enough while playing. Some random variation is good; I don't want my bosses to do the exact same thing in the exact same order in every fight. But when it comes to getting a Game Over, I want it to be MY fault, not just the random number generator deciding to punch me in the cock. Likewise, on the topic of Fire Emblem, random stat-ups are ALSO much like randomly deciding to turn your game off.

On the other side, I don't care about the following:

-Difficulty; I don't play games to be punished for making a mistake in a game I've never played before.
-Twinking; to be honest, it kind of kills the fun. Going through the super-dungeon is one thing, but twinking for its own purpose, just to squish a regular boss tuned for characters forty levels below yours armed with weapons half as good seems pointless to me.
-Length; like I said, I don't have time for most of this shit anymore. I don't want any FFX Monster Arena-scale sidequests, nor I do I want a 50-floor superdungeon with no save points that I have to play in one sitting. On the other hand, I don't want my game to be four hours long, either. Anything between those two extremes is fine.

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2008, 05:12:39 PM »
Mmm. My three main things are interesting exploration, smooth/good gameplay and option customization. Absence of plot is not a problem; bad plot is since I feel compelled to sit through it. Good plot is always nice but not needed; props if the plot is actually incorporated into the dungeon reasonably well instead of "run through touch shit get Saged". Difficulty... varies.

The fourth aspect is style, probably? If I just like the way the game works it tends to rise higher than it normally would, but this tends to be neutral unless the game sucks for me stylewise. Hi, FFTA. -_-

To use my own ratings list as an example:

Persona 2: I like the dungeons, though they could be more stylish; I love the gameplay (though arguing cards are tedious is a good point, but I tend to glide over slow if that's the main problem), but the customization while preserving uniqueness? Bloody awesome. The plot helps, the graphics don't detract. So.

Final Fantasy Tactics: Minimal exploration. Gameplay is fairly well-refined (I'm not talking mechanics, but how it works in general; blah blah quirks don't care it's solid gameplay). Customization, again, makes it surge ahead of the list.

Dragon Quarter: Exploration and gameplay win it its spot. Not much customization, though there is some with the equipment options.

SMT:N: Exploration.. I wish I could say this, but a lot of the dungeons are visually identical. Those that aren't (Final dungeon, the park in some ways, Amala Deep)? Awesome. Gameplay's excellent, insane customization, loses a bit for no/negative plot and stupid difficult (main game over, this doesn't make any sense damnit, allies should have revive, -_-;)

Legend of Mana: Exploration's cool in this, gameplay's a bit lacking due to repetetetetetive battles, customization is pretty damn cool, wins style points.

I dunno, this is just how my brain works. If I wanted plot I'd read a book 9 out of 10 times. If I wanted graphics I'd go look at buildings 10/10 times, since floor plans are the sexiest things ever damnit.

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2008, 07:37:36 PM »
What gets me to play? Well hell. Story, setting, characters.. any of those done well enough will get my attention and keep it, though it's harder to do now than it was when I was a kid. But gameplay I enjoy seems to be the big one. Brigandine's gameplay is not the best in the universe. What it is is innately playable and you can play the game a thousand times, all in a different fashion. I find that to be appealing as hell.

My mood factors in a good deal.

Ultimately, a game can have good story, on paper great gameplay, and just generally excel in most regards. If it doesn't have that 'hook' to keep me wanting to play, I'm not going to rate it highly. FFX has always been the biggest offender here. I just did not enjoy playing in spite of all the game had going for it. Lufia 2 has it. Phantom Brave has it. Disgaea does not. So on. It's not something I can always objectively quailify and sometimes I'll score games low even if I find them playable (PAGING FF9, PAGING FF9) but.. yeah.


I also agree with Rob about challenge. G3 is harder than G1? Yay!?!?!? It still fucking sucks to play and I like the actual combat less than I do G1/2's. Execution doesn't mean a thing when the core system's no good.

Looking at my 10 and 9's to see exactly what I liked them for. Or like them for now. In some cases, these games have aged a hell of a lot in the decade or more since their release.

Final Fantasy Tactics- Everything. It had interesting stories to tell, pretty maps, a giant world full of different randoms, and of course the combat, probably my favorite in any game. It's the only game I've ever done challenges for besides for Brig. It's just that damn fun to play.

Final Fantasy 4- Liked the story/characters as a kid- it was the first game that really attempted either in the NES/SNES market- and the class based system with lots of different equips is something I like. Specific classes and abilities are cool, and a well balanced set of PC's or a good job system is about as good as it gets for game.

Dragon Warrior 4R- Remake of a classic game I liked. Gameplay was good to start with, they added a much needed layer of polish. Chapter system blew me away at the time and is still probably the game's best feature.

Star Ocean 2- Combat and depth. It's still the deepest RPG I've played. On top of that, it has actual challenge modes and a fun aftergame? Bestill my heart! The fact that every single PC plays differently and there's merits to using everyone at just about every point? Wonderful. Documentation needed work though.

Brigandine/Brigandine: Grand Edition- Many different paths to play, all of them different. Each path can be played differently each time as well. Just a well done game in that regard. Oh, and a few of the scenes are very good.

Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen- Was revolutionary at the time. The gameplay and sheer scope of the game caught me as few games have done before or since. The setting is generic on it's face, but it was the first game I can think of where you beat the giant, evil empire one piece at a time in a logical fashion.

SaGa Frontier- See Brig. Music's wonderful and it's a fun, breezy game once you learn it. It's hell before that, but half the fun is mastering the system.

9/10

Front Mission 4- Heavily team based strat game with great VA? It isn't like a SRW game or Disgaea where you build one god unit to wipe everything out, you have to build links and design victory around working together as one solid unit. Setting was also great, and I liked the story as well. Probably deserves to be bumped up to 10/10. The first thing I thought of when finishing it on my recent replay was 'I should play again'. Not often that happens.

Suikoden 2- Took a game I liked (S1), improved on everything, and had a great story. yeah. Typical Suikoden uber playabilitly combined with that.

Final Fantasy 6- Mmm. Definitely gameplay with this. It had good scenes but it never captured my attention- I didn't like any of the villians at all, and none of the major characters besides Edgar caught me at all. But the gameplay? Wow. Well done, and it did character balance/splitpathing/no forced main well.

Phantom Brave- Gameplay+story. Not the typical N1 fare in either, but I found both to be brilliant by the end. Also you could make the game as easy as hard as you want, with the failure duengons and availability of pretty much everything from the beginning.

Tales of the Abyss- Great playability and the characters/story I really enjoyed. A definite step up from ToS, which I found to drag and have a largely worthless cast.

Suikoden 3- Brought something new to the table with the triple PoV system, great gameplay as far as I'm concerned, and added a lot to the Suikoverse.

Final Fantasy 7- I try to avoid lowering games over time. FF7'd be a big victim here- the game's in need of a remake worse than most NES games. But.. anyway.

At the time? Setting and the Materia system are what hooked me. Character stuff was never the game's strong point, Seph barely existed and Cloud I'm never sure what I think about. There's a hell of a combat system buried here, just it's limited by the game's enemies being gimpy.

Lufia 2- Anicent cave+a few memorable characters. It's a fun, bright SNES RPG with the ubercrack of doom duengon added on.


---

Bringing something different to the table seems to be what interests me, along with gameplay. Setting as well- DQ8 nearly gets all of it's points off this.

But yeah, Playability (different things here), gameplay, characters, setting, and story seem to be the order I value things.

Though I can't seem to really play non RPG's more. Just can't keep my attention. Even the great ones like PW just make me go eh.
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SageAcrin

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2008, 08:01:13 PM »
What gets me to play?

Pretty much anything.

Specifically...

Both well done plot and gameplay can make me enjoy a game enough to complete it, even if the alternate option is bad.

Now, granted, how much I'm going to enjoy the game does vary. XG, whose battle system I find an inoffensive generic thing that moves fast and where I never minded any of the quirks that turn people off(Am I the only one that really figured out fast that spamming deathblows=none later?), and whose plot I really, really like, I rate 10. Planescape, whose combat I found grating but tolerable, got signifigantly lower marks.

Grandia 3, whose gameplay I enjoyed, but not massively-I like the Grandia-type battle systems, but I'm not hugely into them-I'm hovering around 5/10 or 6/10, ditto FFX-2. Why? Because I couldn't ignore the plot(oh, I could have plotskipped scenes, that doesn't count, much like running from everything in PS:T doesn't count, for me.). The plot was genuinely bad in G3's case and genuinely spotty in X-2's case with some monumentally horrible points to offset the better plot points.

These are actually not the only reasons I play, though. I'll replay games with higher challenge more often than I will your average game-obviously, only if I like the game, though, for all that challenge isn't an initial factor for me. Well, not a huge one. It helps if the game isn't easier than hell.

I'll generally play polished mediocrities when I'm in a certain kind of mood, or even underpolished ones, because I basically just want a mindless game(See: Most random obscure RPGs I've picked up. I refuse to name names, they might have fans. <_< Well, besides the obvious one, DQ6.); I don't really want to think about battle system at that point. Or FAQs; I can just blow through such games without fretting about my completionism, since I don't play 'em for that.

Good enough aesthetics, as in Legend of Mana, can keep me going on a game and make me like it more than normal. Contrarily, though, it tends to take typical NES-level graphics or really bad music to get me to leave.

(Also, to disassemble things: In gameplay terms, very few elements are strong turnoffs outside of very bad mazes(I have a fairly good natural directional sense in non-3D game dungeons. The exceptions are usually completely illogically done and need fire.) and slow gameplay(I'm of the opinion if you spend twice as much time watching animations than playing(Paying attention to, at the very least.) the game, it's an emotional flaw. Not an objective one; it just pisses me off. ^_^

Plot, now, characters can carry a plot, setting can carry a plot, main plot stream can carry a plot, sidestories can carry a plot...just so long as the other elements aren't counterbalancingly bad, for me.)

Generally, I rate balance highest(My two, more rational, 10/10 choices are FFX and FFT.). But I pretty much can enjoy anything. Probably why I play so very many RPGs.
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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2008, 11:06:28 PM »
It's difficult to quantify if I try to think about it. But if I think about what I have highest ranked and what the best parts about those are, it should give me some sort of idea.

For the 9/10s...
Breath of Fire IV's best aspect seems to be either the characters or the setting.
Paper Mario 2's best aspect is similar. As is that of Planescape: Torment. As is that of Skies of Arcadia: Legends...
...Tales of Symphonia however isn't especially crash hot in either area. It's been too long since I played it but I'm thinking the best aspects were the battle system and the music.
Valkyrie Profile is again characters and setting.


So I can assume that characters and setting are probably my two highest weighted areas. Given that Torment is worth a godly 9, this also means that battle system is worth comparatively little, although seemingly not that little since Tales of Symphonia is riding on it.

8s, Baten Kaitos has characters, but the setting isn't that great. Has some amount of style and a fairly good plot. Battle system is theoretically woeful, which is another nail in its coffin.
Breath of Fire III... I'm not sure why BoFIII is worth a point less than BoFIV offhand? I have to replay both and compare at some point. I'm thinking that it's less stylish, which pegs that part up a bit.
Fallout doesn't really have much going for it in the way of characters that I saw while playing, but it does have a great setting. The battle system is theoretically godawful in practice due to excess of randomness but is pretty stylish, and considering I never used anything over a Magnum it may be my fault in the first place.
Final Fantasy IX has characters. Somewhat reasonable storyline.
Final Fantasy VII has good characters and a somewhat reasonable storyline also. Setting is a tad better than IX's, and it arguably has better graphics.
Fire Emblems 5/6/7/9 are pretty much all relying on characters. They introduce a new entry: Simplicity, which I care for a fair amount and is a chunk of the reason why I like BoF1 and FFMQ so much, and is also the reason why FE7 is currently still the best FE. To be frank: I have no freaking reason what it is about the SRPG genre, which is so god-awfully broken in its core concepts, that makes me enjoy the games so much. I've theorised before that it's to do with them tricking you into thinking you're good at tactics when none of them actually need any, but I think that's a tad flimsy.
M&L Superstar Saga it has been so long since I played this that I can remember like nothing about it. Certainly characters can't be the play, except possibly for that one guy who had the line in the quotes quiz that I've managed to forget the name of again already, but he can't carry a whole game anyway. Setting is possible. Humour is worth a fair amount and may put it up here but I don't remember any.
Megaman Battle Network 2: I have a tendency to like card-based systems (see Baten Kaitos) despite the fact that way they work is theoretically highly stupid (see SRPGs for similar). Characters are definitely the major part here anyway. As opposed to BN1 and BN3 which scored lower, I believe it has over BN1: more style, and a better plot, and it has over BN3: a less freakishly large library. And more style. In any case it also has a collection component.
Phantasy Star IV is characters and setting and style. Why is it not 9? I'm not rightly sure...
Star Ocean 2 manages to have characters and battle system. Why is ToS higher than it? No idea. I'm going to have to say that it's less pretty than ToS, which might work for PSIV as well.
Suikoden is characters >_> Also simplicity of a sort, and a collection component. Collecting stuff being mildly addictive when it's not stupid.
Super Robot Wars games: OG games are here for characters and humour, sure. But why are Alpha and Gaiden here considering characters can't be a factor because I can't understand them? It's that pesky SRPG quantity again.


So, from this it appears that I play games for, from highest to lowest weighting:

Character
Setting
Style
Battle System <ARPG>
<SRPG Unknown Quantity>
Simplicity
Collectingness
Humour
Battle System <RPG/SRPG>
Graphics
Music

What's missing?
Plot: I like FFMQ. Plot is clearly not especially high up. Not to say that an awesome plot can't boost things. But. I play games to be entertained. I don't play for artistic merit, which seems to be missing the point completely.

Difficulty: Depends on whether it's stupid difficulty or not, and what genre you're playing. In any case note that I rarely ever play games on settings above the easiest if available. For plain RPGs, difficulty is somewhat difficult to quantify, and the system doesn't really help... for example, just doubling the HP of an enemy doesn't necessarily make it more difficult, it can just make the game require a) nothing because the characters were already smiting it anyway or b) more grinding or c) using strategies that no-one would actually know without using a guide. _Anything that is hard to do without a guide but simple with one is not difficulty_ presuming you retain the spirit of the line and not the letter of it, since of course things like puzzles can be hard to do without a guide and simple with one and still be difficult. I am talking about things like taking rubber shoes in to that FFT boss.
Now SRPGS on the other hand are freakishly worthless without some pretence at having difficulty. They become 'move your characters, all the enemies die on their turn, you win' and it is god-boring because you don't have to think at all I am looking at FE8 here. Hard Mode does nothing for it because you can effectively do just that while using only prepromotes. You don't have to think at all for the majority of battles in vanilla RPGs, but a vanilla RPG battle lasts 1/100th the time an SRPG battle does, and they are not the focus of the game; if you're going to make battles the focus of the game, then make them actually interesting. SRW has a fair few entries which are getting close to these lines but at least I can affect difficulty into them with my effectively nevah let anyone explode way of playing. FE8's got nuthin', and they go out of their way to let you let it have even LESS nuthin' if you don't mind grindin'.

Randomness: I... all RPGs are random to some extent, I think. Someone please give me an example of one that has no randomness whatsoever because I would be interested to see how it works. Actually... Paper Mario 2, possibly... but I'm sure there has to be at least one random thing in there I'm not remembering at the moment.
In vanilla RPGs randomness tends to be not especially offensive because your characters have a tendency to outclass the majority of things you're fighting, and it's normally Not About The Battles anyway. SRPGs on the other hand are ALL about the battles, and secondly your characters tend to be considerably more fragile than regular RPG characters. And thirdly they're SUPPOSED to be nominally tactical, but it is eminently possible for the best plan possible to fail because of numbers, outside of knowing in advance what all the numbers rolled are going to be (or all the numbers involved are guaranteed, as in all 100%s and 0%s). This is also true for regular RPGs but tends to be a) less likely and b) battles. not. focus.

Of course vanilla RPGs CAN have offensive randomness. I am specifically looking at Aretha 1 GB and randomly not letting you stay at inns/buy from chemists here. If randomness must exist it should be constrained to the battle system. In effect amount of randomness is a quality that can lower a game's score if it's god-awful, but it's not going to raise a score if it isn't.

So the order becomes

Character
Setting
Style
Battle System <ARPG>
<SRPG Unknown Quantity>
Simplicity
Difficulty <SRPG>
Collectingness
Humour
Plot
Difficulty <RPG/ARPG>
Battle System <RPG/SRPG>
Graphics
Music
Randomness
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 11:08:11 PM by Twilkitri »

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2008, 11:08:23 PM »
I play games for gameplay primarilly.  If the gameplay is shit I have trouble playing it.  If the plot is exceptional I will tolerate it.

Well actually I primailly play games because I hate myself so I take up one of the most painful hobbies I can think of with an industry that will continuously let me down, rape the things I love, destroy their heritage and salt the earth that they were created on.

But gameplay comes second and if other things are exceptional I may continue to play them for that.  I have a decent selection of games that I really like that are flawed in many ways and if I had a list the 10/10 section wouldn't be a good spot for any kind of analysis.  Since honestly most of my favourites are flawed in some way.  They tend to truely excel at an area that something that cooould be an 10/10 game is not as good at.  See Arcanum.  The pits and troughs on it are insane.  It is a masterwork in so many ways and so technically flawed in so many others.

Whoa Twil, Baten Kaitos is an 8?  You are so weird >_>
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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2008, 11:40:36 PM »
I like a unified, interesting style over most everything else.  "SMAAAASH!  The New Age Retro Hippy turned back to normal!" is entertaining to me in a way that "Critical Hit!  Ork was defeated!" is generally not.  BoF4 is one of my favorite RPGs despite not excelling in any one thing because the style fits everything together nicely.  P:T is also one of my favorites for concentrating on the things it excells in despite having glaring flaws in the areas it doesn't care about.  If a game is stylish, it can become fun to play for me even with gameplay mechanics that would normally turn me away. 

Music, art, story, characters, and tone are all subcomponents of style, and more important than mechanics to me, though mechanics can help.  Exploration is usually a big plus, because if there are things to explore in the first place they are generally stylish.  Metroidvanias are probably my favorite game genre at the moment. 

There are limits to this.  Repetitive grinding is my least favorite thing to do in games.  I'll do it if there are consistent, novel, interesting rewards for doing so (Castlevania DoS souls) but still not really like it.  Games where the entire point is grinding (see: anything N1, MMOs, RPGs with too many mindless random battles) and/or the rewards for doing so are just bigger numbers...  I completely fail to understand or like those games in any way. 

I most enjoy difficult strategic gameplay, where there are possibly many ways to solve a problem, but no one way is guaranteed all the time and success is not assured but can be made so mostly via skill, planning and coordination.  True difficulty can be overcome with planning beforehand and thinking on the fly, or reflexes if it's that sort of game.  BS difficulty slaps you in the face for no reason or offers you too few real options.  FFT SCCs are a great example of what is good gameplay to me.  Metroid Prime with its sequence breaking is another.  Or a game of non-role-madness Mafia. 

Fun for me is when a game manages to induce an emotional response in me or make me think. 

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2008, 12:23:41 AM »
I like RPGs because I like RPGs. I grew up playing them, and then as my other hobbies developed, I re-discovered that RPGs fit nicely into the nerdy Japanophile subculture niche I had holed myself into. This is why I will continually punish myself by playing bad JRPGs simply because I find the fact that I am playing a JRPG to be innately fun.

Now, objectively, there are a number of games which are genuinely good at one or another aspect; be it good dialogue, intriguing plot, great character development/interaction, beautiful art or music, or a really captivating battle system (ARPGs, platforming TBRPGs, and certain SRPGs tend to make me feel this way). Apart from appreciating the good things JRPGs do, I just like fantasy/sci-fi settings and colorful characters who are out to save the world or dragged into saving it for some reason. It's a tired premise, but it's one I like - and so I like to play all the different variations on the theme that I can.

Sometimes this ends in weird results, as I'm probably the only person in the U.S. who ever enjoyed Shining Tears... >.>;;

Also, the artistic side of things is one I've always enjoyed. I like to draw fantasy characters, so where better to pull resources than the colorful casts of JRPGs?

So, that makes my priority list something like this:
Setting/Premise
Character Development
Art/Anime
Well-written Dialogue/Character interaction
Battle System (ARPGs/Platforming)
Character "Unique-ness"
Twinking (SRPGs - there's where my inner math went!)
Plot
Style/Cinematography/Presentation
Music
Challenge
Realism (Perma-death is NOT fun!)

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2008, 12:27:22 AM »

Agreed about S03.

I play and replay different RPGs for different reasons. Some like the Shadow Hearts series I play for plot and others for gameplay (S03, FFX-2, FFXII) and some mixed (like I fairly enjoyed VPII's plot first time through but I'm just started to explore the gameplay in depth)

I think S03 has spoiled me though because now I can hardly bare the battles in most turn based rpgs, when I go back and try to play things like the Shadow Hearts series or FFIX I feel like ranting about how slow everything seems ;p

So basically plot solid games I may only play a base few times whilst if I enjoy the gameplay in game I'll just get coming back to it on and off.

Dungeons - Nice designs and layouts I like yeah something that is fun to explore. I don't mind puzzles so long as they aren't going to be so hard that they'll make my head hurt at midnight trying to figure them out >_>

Characters? - Doesn't really matter. If they are good gameplay wise I can pretty much forgive any character anything ;p

Oh wait ... Rinoa <_<

Difficulty - Yes please. I seem to be one of the few people that actually enjoy 4-D mode in S03. Then again apparently VPII has fifty difficulty levels which might be a bit much even for me o_o

Twinking - With characters' unique and innate abilities? Sure. With generic game system crap (materia, crests, junction system, espers, sphere grids, what have you) no.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 12:44:10 AM by Clear Tranquil »
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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2008, 04:32:29 AM »
I'm a gameplay guy.  Story is nice, and can enhance already good gameplay (FF6), but I don't need a lot of it to enjoy a game.  Needless to say, most of my favorite games are from tri-Ace.   ;-)

In the subset of gameplay, a good battle system is a must.  Action RPGs usually score well in this regard, but turn-based can be pulled off well also.  As an example, DW7.  Yes, it's the same Fight/Item/etc. menu from every other turn-based game.  But the battles were lightning-quick, making fighting nontedious.  When DQ8 went with lengthy character animations for each attack, it slowed the gameplay down tremendously and made fighting unfun.

I also expect a decent challenge from a game.  Not punch you in the balls repeatedly challenge (hi, Odin Sphere), but I should get a game over from time to time to make me think I'm actually working.  This area is BoF4's biggest failing.

Replay value is also important.  I should *want* to replay a game immediately after I finish it.  Having a variety of unique characters certainly helps in that regard, as I can use different ones on a new playthrough.  Games like Xenogears fail on this one.  Sure, the story is great the first time you play it.  But on a replay, you already know all the story spoilers, and all you're left with is a mediocre battle system.

Listing my favorite games as a reference:

1. Final Fantasy 6
2. Persona 3
3. Star Ocean 2
4. Valkyrie Profile
5. Lufia 2

And the rest of the top-ten, in no particular order:

Breath of Fire 3, Star Ocean 3, Dragon Warrior 7, Final Fantasy 5, Dragon Warrior 3

Huh, VP is the only non-sequel to make my cut, and four out of ten are third attempts.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2008, 10:53:38 PM »
Late response! But finally got around to finishing one, so here it is.


While this has varied over the years, I increasingly find myself playing for gameplay.

First of all, I should start by saying that an RPG is fundamentally a medium that sells itself on a lot of things at once. It can show off pretty graphics very well (whatever you think of the FF series, there's no denying that it is one of the franchises near the fore of showing off brilliant computer graphics work). It is a vehicle for strong soundtracks, due to the length and scope of the games, and the variety of situations the games portray. It can tell a story better than most game genres, with a larger, more detailed cast of characters, and create strong settings. It can have interesting battles, and it can have interesting ways of setting up to beat battles ahead of time.

That said, while getting the full mix is nice - and occasionally an RPG will surprise me in one category (see Suikoden 5 having a good cast and storyline) - gameplay is the one thing that keeps me interested after fifty plus games. I mean, if you think about the rest...

-Story, characters, setting: First of all, problem number 1 is that all these things are done noticeably better in other genres (books in particular). So if this is your reason for playing, I'd suggest taking up reading instead - it's cheaper, more portable, and builds your language skills, quite apart from the step up in quality. Additionally, though, there's this problem with RPG plots recycling the same anime tropes over and over again, and I for one found it very tiring. The formula was interesting enough the first dozen or so times, and in particular the first few times I saw it done -well-. It is not interesting any more to me. I'd say there's really only ~15% of RPG plots/etc. left I really care for enough to give out significant points for any more. In the past... two years, Suikoden 5 is the only game I'd score significantly higher for plot than I would if the plot hadn't existed at all? XS3 might have done the same, but it also managed to become the only game I have ever lowered for plot concerns as well. To continue that thought, mediocre plots rarely annoy me too much. Likely due to considering the vast majority of RPG plots mediocre anyway, the ones that are "more" mediocre don't really ping my radar. Sure, I can't defend MEGA MAN PLOT to my litereature prof, but I can't defend Lunar plot either.

Graphics - I've never put a large amount of emphasis on stunning computer graphics. Anyway, only a few games are notable at this. I guess I could see giving something like FFX points for this, because it does make environments more immersive... but even that's a stretch, and anything below that? Yeah, who cares. General aesthetics appeals to me a bit more, but if I want beautiful art, even beautiful art in the anime style, I can find it without shelling out for a game, or spending forty hours on it. Like plot, very beautiful art can add to a game, but only so much, and I wouldn't tear down a game for mediocre art.

Music - After gameplay, I think this is the one I have the most trouble arguing against as actually important to me these days, because what RPGs do with music is actually somewhat notable. In particular: the music is something you are supposed to respond to (e.g. a tense boss music gets you in the mood for a good fight), which is something also seen in movies/TV, and conversely, the music responds to you (it syncs up with whatever you're doing at the time). It's really kind of neat. The overall quality isn't the absolute best you'll find anywhere, but due to it being generally more my style than most popular music, it tends to be good enough for me.

That said, a game is not its soundtrack. If it were, once again, I could just download the soundtrack separately from the game and get most, if not the entire, experience. And playing an RPG on mute shouldn't instantly take off major points from it, one would hope. It's probably not unfair to dismiss an RPG's music as "mere aesthetics", even if harsh.


So that really leaves gameplay. This is the one thing RPGs have that can NOT be reproduced in other genres, let alone bettered. RPG gameplay is pretty unique. Fundamentally, the strategy of it does appeal to me - you have to think out the best plan of action to get out of a situation, rather than rely on twitchy actions to get you through things (not that I dislike games that do the latter, but the point is RPGs are different). There are a few other genres that do this, but RPGs interest me most, because they have something ELSE in their gameplay that appeals to me a lot, and that's their party dynamic.

When I'm playing Megaman, I have to decide how best to control Megaman to get me past the current challenge. When I'm playing MGS, I have to decide how best to control Snake. When I'm playing Wild ARMs, though? I have to decide how best to control Rudy, Cecilia, AND Jack. This really introduces a whole new way of looking at gameplay for me, and the interplay is something I just fundamentally find interesting. It's also an interplay nearly unique to the RPG genre - more action-oriented genres only really allow the control of one PC, typically, while strategy games will have me in control of many more (typically generic, copies of each other, which causes me to be relatively less interested, not that there aren't some strategy games I enjoy). Actually, this is part of the reason ARPGs typically score far below other RPGs to me; the emphasis is on the control of ONE character, rather than the many. (Similarly, why VP was able to far outperform other ARPGs in my estimation, if it counts as one.)

So RPG gameplay has two things I like a lot, and I really enjoy seeing how different games will put a new spin on it. Fundamentally, that's what I look for in an RPG these days. Can it deliver good RPG gameplay? Does it force me to think of ways past RPG battles in new ways? Or set up for them, perhaps... are there a variety of ways to assemble your party to achieve success that can be considered?




Looking through my top games, a few can easily be seen to completely deliver in this department. Without further elaboration on why, they are: Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy X, various Fire Emblems, Xenosaga 2, Mega Man X Command Mission, Wild Arms 4, and Grandia 3. Some of these games even deliver strong stories as well by RPG standards. In general, the more they deliver in other areas, the higher their score, which is proof that at least, yes, other factors do matter. Every one of them produced gameplay I absolutely adore, keeping me constantly interested in battles of all types throughout the game.

That leaves the following games which don't have incredibly awesome gameplay but I still like. So the question is, why?

Final Fantasy 7, Suikoden 5, Xenogears: Gameplaywise, these are the three weakest games that I put at 8/10 or higher. So why are they here? For being in that rare elite that actually have notably, really good stories to me. Note that 8/10 is as high as they get; beyond that, gameplay is a must.

Valkyrie Profile: The gameplay is decent if a bit repetitive. What this game really has is creativity, something I highly prize. The gameplay itself has some of the creativity, but where the game really shines is in its setting, story execution, etc. RPGs are, as mentioned, in general such a massively stale job for storytelling, that when a game tells a very different story, and even does it pretty well... that's going to mean lots of points.

Suikoden 3: The gameplay is merely good. Pair system is neat, skills system helps differentiate a huge cast. Otherwise? Same ballpark as the above three big plot games, with trinity sight system and the epilogue PoV meaning extra rewards for the creativity I love.

Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger: Two games that occasionally bother me for being this high because I fear they're tainted somewhat for nostalgia. But there's more to it. FF6... well, while actual battles are merely decent, it does manage to score very high in gameplay for having a very neat character setup system, being a perfect balance (to me) between strong base templates and plenty of things for you to mess with on top of that, with the equipment system in particular being especially interesting. It also has one of the best and gutsiest midgame plot twists in an RPG, something the genre seems very reluctant to do. Chrono Trigger... well. I dunno. I think it's mostly just really highly polished. I can't think of much wrong with it, even if it's not too interesting, and it's just so... playable. A tough one to pin down.

Wild Arms 3: Decent battle system, brilliant character setup system (highly customisable but the base PCs make a huge difference), excellent storyline, brilliant soundtrack. Despite not being top five for gameplay for me, it's just way too good at like everything else, beyond occasional WA stupidity with puzzles and world map.

Breath of Fire 4: Odd one. Battles are good (manipulatable turn-based, combos, etc.), but good enough for an 8? Probably not. Master system is good but doesn't floor me. Soundtrack is good, Fou-Lu is love... yeah, it just adds up.

Phantasy Star 4: Similar to BoF4 in many ways, but without the soundtrack or Fou-Lu. So why's it so high? Actually, I'm not fully sure. It's not a bad mix by any means to start with, but... hmm. The game probably benefits unfairly from its awesome out-of-game documentation, and beyond that, it's just... Chrono Triggerish, a joy to play through.

Pokemon Emerald: Well, Pokemon gameplay in its own way is pretty hot, so this one being where it is probably isn't much of a mystery. This one in particular cracks the ranks of the elite because its boss battles are just about my favourite in any RPG ever.


Mm. Closing thoughts... another thing I care for a fair deal in RPGs is pacing. I love it when RPGs keep me constantly interested. Sure, the best way to do this is a good battle system, strong plot, etc., but it's even better when you can string things along in a way that just wants me to keep playing, with the game firing on all cylinders at all times. Wild Arms 4 is exemplary at this; Phantasy Star 4, thinking on it, is also pretty strong at it. Having a shorter length often helps a lot, because this means less filler, but on the other hand, if I'm really loving a game, I'll want it to be longer, and adore it when the game actually delivers on this (Suikoden 3 gets away with it the best, perhaps because of the rotating perspectives keeping things from becoming stale).


Neat topic, Rob.

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2008, 01:28:58 AM »
MEGA MAN PLOT is all about how the plot is a pointless vehicle to get to the good action of actual gameplay.  The response MEGA MAN PLOT is akin to "This line of discussion is absolutely comlpetely and totally irrelevant" if you are discussing Mega Man plot and not its gameplay, you have failed  like this.  So yeah you shouldn't have to defend MEGA MAN PLOT to your literature professor, you should be telling him to shut the fuck up and that he should be charging up his buster instead of mindlessly spamming it because they dropped that no charging shit like a bad habit fast in the series.
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Niu

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2008, 03:52:56 AM »
Sometimes this ends in weird results, as I'm probably the only person in the U.S. who ever enjoyed Shining Tears... >.>;;

I doubt the people on the other side would like it either outside those who are in need of hentai material (like me, I really need more Xero/Souma doujins). Pesudo neatherworld like game design and youteichougo sugi on top of that. It is like the worst part of N1 and Alpha System meeting each other.

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2008, 06:10:48 AM »
It varies for me for reasons that I don't know.  A game can have bad characters and rule, but there are also games that I only play for the characters.  Some games I replay for plot, whereas others I replay for the game itself (if that makes any sense.)  Guess I'll do top games like other did and say why I liked them.

10s!
Baldur's Gare 2-  I liked the options you got.  It had a plot, but the sidequests were up to you mainly, so if you didn't like someone you didn't need to bother with them.  I think this is HUGE for me, hence liking FE games.  I think this is why Icewind Dale never stuck for me either, because your characters are generic PoSes.  The fighting was also original since the only game I'd played like it was BG1.

Disgaea 1-2-  Both had awesome characters and awesome plots.  What ruled about this was that the battle system was also semi-unique for me, at least in the past couple years of games I've played.

FE7- The characters were fun.  You got to pick and choose who you want and don't for the most part.  So if you think Lowen being a cook was stupid, FINE, he's gone!  Plot was okay, as was the battle system, but I think the options sold it for me.

FF6-  Character options again, this time with more fun characters.  Also more open endedness in WoR.


Now categories!

Difficulty- Don't want a game to be ridiculously easy that I feel stupid for beating it.  This was the only way that FE8 was inferior to FE7 really.  It just disappointed me to go up against the final boss and win without trying.  Won't ruin a game one way or another, but I want at least a little challenge.

Characters- Can make a game, but can't really ruin it?  FF7, FF8, S1 all had meh characters but were fun games in the end.  Still, good characters can totally make a game, see Dis1, Dis2, BG, etc.

Gameplay- I do want a battlesystem that is enjoyable.  Most work for me, but I also don't like to overkill myself on a single one.  FE, BG, Dis, FF6 all completely different, but all work for me.  As for how the world is done... I prefer some control over encounters.  FF6 lets you dodge random encounters fairly early whereas FF4 beats you over the head with them.  Disgaeas let you skip item world levels completely.  BG you can run from a lot of fighting and so on.

Music/Graphics-  Both can help, but unless it's godawful can't hurt.  FE doesn't have good graphics and still owns.  BG doesn't have good music and still owns.  Meanwhile a mediocre game can be improved by these.

Story-  Same as above.  FE story is bland, but doesn't hurt game.  Disgaea story owns and helps it.

Extra shit-  I like it offered, but don't wanna be beaten over the head with it.  FFX does an awesome job of introducing you to extra stuff, without forcing you into it.

Replay value-  A truly great game can be played more than once.  For whatever reason it must be able to be replayed.  Whether this is because of the plot, characters, variety, alternate endings, etc. doesn't matter.


Meeplelard

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 09:52:23 PM »
Hmm...I guess gameplay would be the big thing.

I look for overall worth in gameplay.  Naturally, the first question I ask is "am I having fun?" Then I work from there.  Originality is nice, but depends how its done.  Similarly, being traditional can be nice too so long as its not too idiotic about it (Wild ARMs 3 is pretty traditional, but handles it well, hence why I like it a lot.  Contrast it to Romancing Saga 3 which feels horribly unpolished, and completely fucks up the originality.)

Also, complexity isn't necessarily a good thing either.  Fire Emblem 9 and 10 are among my favorite games...and they're still standard FE fare in terms of simplicity (granted, they have a few new extra things that add a bit of depth to the gameplay, like Skills, but that's an aside.)  Meanwhile, Disgaea has a fuck ton of aspects to it which feel more like "here are more ways to get stronger!" when they could have just gone the simple "kill things, gain levels!" since when it comes to that, that's really all you're doing in the end anyway, so the rest just kind of becomes superfluous nonsense.

A good plot is always nice, but a bad plot can't compeltely ruin a game.  Grandia 3 is a perfect example of this.  Yes, the game isn't as good as it COULD have been with actual worthwhile characters and storyline, but the fact that I still gave it something around 7-8/10 proves that gameplay merits alone can get you far.  So...bad plot can only hurt a game so much unless its absolutely offensive to a point (yar halo thar Xenosaga 3.)  Bad Plot can be overlooked.

Good reason why (especially with modern RPGs)?  If I want to replay a game, there's a good chance I'm replaying it for the actual game, and not the storyline.  If the plot is good, I'll rewatch it on one of my first few replays.  If its bad? I'll skip it (see, Modern games have Scene Skip which = win!), and get to the fun stuff.  Some games have idiotically long scenes, granted, and it gets annoying mashing the A Button or whatever down to get through them, but...I think only Xenogears really offended me in that style.

Music is another big thing; a killer soundtrack can really add to a game.  As Elfboy noted, a tense boss theme can make the boss fight seem that much better than it really is.  The Magus Fight in CT I always regarded as being big and epic, despite how I never actually had problems with it, PURELY cause of the battle theme, for example, at least when I was younger (and the song still kicks ass now so...)  A well done sad theme can really make you feel like something has happened in that part of the game.  Not to mention good use of music is needed too.  Xenosaga 1 is a perfect example of an OST that was horribly used in game, cause til this day, I can only remember about 5 or6 songs from the whole damn game, and when I listen to hyped songs, I think to myself "where the hell did THIS play in XS1?"  And mind, I practically played the game twice.
Unique usage of songs doesn't hurt too.  People Siezed with Life from CC, for example.  Its generally a sad theme, used well for instances that call for it...then in Miguel's section, the song doesn't change and its kept for the fight.  Unexpected and odd choice for a battle theme, but it generally fit better than Brink of Death (a song that is by no means bad, IMHO) for that fight.

Graphics...don't care.  Yeah, being pretty is nice, but that's mostly a first impression thing.  I mean, Odin Sphere is damned pretty...but its kind of lacking in areas where it matters, and it looking nice can only mask this for so long.
Or another example? Final Fantasy 8.  The opening FMV stands out to me for being one of the best intros to a game to this date, showing you lots of action with fast paced, in excellent graphics (especially for the time), and music that matches the scene.  Unfortunately, even this doesn't save the game as the game doesn't ever quite deliver to that level of worth ever again; so in that case, its a disappointment.  Game builds you up for this great thing that it never quite reaches ever again. Sad...

So...yeah, guess I play games for game play and then the other stuff is all dependent on how its used, with Eye Candy related stuff being a clear last place that generally ends up being used for tie breakers.
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cloudstrifesheart

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Re: Why do you play?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2008, 05:23:52 PM »
I used to play games in day in and day out. Then I became a drug dealer and then got arrested when I was 22. Spent a year and a half in jail. I couldn't get back into gaming because it wasnt the same and then Crisis Core came along. I'm a huge Cloud Strife fanboy. So why do I play? CLOUD STRIFE.....the truth
I think......I think I want to be forgiven. Mhhm. More than anything.