Bravely Default stat topic ideas

[DjinnAndTonic]

Specials are dependent entirely on what weapon a Job/PC equips. Not allowing the specials feels akin to not allowing storebought equipment...

[interrobangbang]

Played Hard up until chapter 3 boss, decided I wasn't enjoying the game like I wanted to, swapped to Normal.

0: allow Brave/Default. can't bring myself to argue otherwise. If necessary remove the damage reduction from Default for classes that don't get a unique bonus from it Templar, but.

1: Job stat topic most def. PC stat topic could be neat but is a minor concern.
2: Normal, though it mainly only impacts damage. having played both I think translating from hard->normal is a b it easier than from normal->hard as you may not have the feel for what moves wind up on the cusp of OHKOing like they do in hard.

3: Allow all norende items, with following conditions:
1) Ban anything over 75k gold. this both elims certain overpowered items that'd overcentralize equips (falcon knife) and reflects not permitting high-time requirement equip options, which since a lot are spears/axes, which only a few cast members use, makes most sense to me. Also, without grinding, your money drops off heavily after chapter 4 ( because 99% of the refights drop 0 gold and you have little reason outside of compendium/vampire to do randoms anymore )
2) Ban reflect rings because passing that out so easily sits poorly and they're kinda bad in game for a variety of reasons, overinfliation of worth should be avoided.
3) I reserve the right to rethink this, but limit dragon fangs to between 1-5. 5 makes the most sense to me but I could see even that being too much.

Every time you update friend data you get three people a day. Doing this can easily get you to the # of people that makes tasks complete in 1-3 hours. Sleep mode is not necessary, as a result; neither is having friends, as you'll still get three or so random people to join the "town" every day. In other words the Norende stuff isn't really time limited except in a way that prevents most from early game grinding it. cost is my only concern as a result. Allow all specials/special mods. basically the only way you're going to miss out on most of Norende is by actively ignoring it for most of the game. I think allowing optional stuff fits better in general, and esp. here (specials, e.g., seem a very intended part of the system, as does the item functions of expanding Norende. the main breakable thing is earlygame highpower weapons, but again, those are class restricted mostly so it's possible few will even benefit from it.)

4) I completed the game in its bad ending at L70. did some grinding, also had encounters off often. Would consider L70 a minimum for a full stat topic due to a variety of reasons, but maybe 65 or so? that seems pushing it but w/e

5) spoilers ahead. It seems most simple to use first world forms. Second and third world forms change little. Fourth/fifth look like they're mostly group boss fights which present durability interp issues, but do expand skillsets (Ominas in world 4, e.g., has an OHKO in his lightning magic and a MT 2HKO in his fire. Much better than what he packed world 1 IIRC.)

6) If you get enough of a drop/chest item to give one to each member of the team, allow it, allow storeboughts, the rest... I like the idea of being more flexible on equipment but since others don't seem to be that way my view would just be the above. (If I were doing this myself my interpretation would line up with Jo'ou Ranbu - allow steals as well, since there's multiple ways to make steals much easier to work with). Default accessory should be Hermes Sandals (that's what I'd take in as penalty for people switching for offense/defense/resists/status blocking).

Also would prolly personally only allow people to equip weapons from their top two ranks (so someone w/ S can equip S+A weapons, someone with a top of A can equip A->B, etc) to try and keep equipment from being "Everyone who isn't a mage just takes a spear or a sword, but probably a spear".

Agree with Dark Holy Elf that bosses should be held to their Brave/Default patterns. (Ch. 2 spoiler: one of the bosses there doesn't Default (which I would hold them to) but will Brave a relatively fixed pattern of status->MT damage->heal; allowing them latitude/the ability to switch to MT damage x3 inflates them too far to me.

Money allowed for skills... 3-4x random sounds fair, so 20k or so. Actually that settles the Dragon Fang issue nicely, they can buy those and have blitz but minimal healing/buffing, or go for stall damage tactics.

so yeah. also hi.

[hinode]

Bows and knuckles are going to be the most common "sub-optimal" weapon types, almost surely. 2-handed weapons are a lot more desirable when you can't inherited Two-Handed for basically free, and more damage is generally more desirable than the modest defense boosts that the average class gets from a shield.

Well, unless you allow the elemental immunity shields via rare steals.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

And as always, I find the idea of "defend-tanking against Jump/Silent Lake/etc." kinda eyeroll-worthy when enemies aren't capable of doing this in-game

Bravely Default enemies can do this! And do! And the Dragoon-type class doesn't care!


For salve-maker, the difference in offense between attack item mixes and staff thwacks is massive. And their ability to put someone down in a decent timeframe greatly affects their ability to win.

I'm not so sure that's a -huge- deal outside Shadowflare - their offense outside Shadow Flare is going to be either Toxic X-Potion, which is uh storebought by C4, or attack item mixes, whose ingredients you can, at the absolute worst, procure with their Experiment skill for cheap and easy in-game. Shadowflare -is- a big deal (over double the offense of those methods I pointed), I suppose, but I'd certainly at best view it as once-per-battle limited myself, since those are the rarest materials (and I'd apply a harsh numeric limitation to just about any mix from steal/drops in the game, and, outside the elemental walling items, they're really not all that great, mostly because of duration issues - though they're not so amazing off Salve-Maker's defensive stat spread either).

[interrobangbang]

Bows and knuckles are going to be the most common "sub-optimal" weapon types, almost surely. 2-handed weapons are a lot more desirable when you can't inherited Two-Handed for basically free, and more damage is generally more desirable than the modest defense boosts that the average class gets from a shield.

Well, unless you allow the elemental immunity shields via rare steals.

I said swords/spears since a lot of classes get B/A or so ranks in those two and they're pretty strong onehanders that don't sacrifice durability. Bows also may work out, though a lot of classes I suspect may not actually find those to be usable. Ditto knuckles. Good ranks in those are rare and ranks matter immensely. (This also doesn't matter much for me, I'd hod jobs to their top two ranks but) but lemme check...

Classes with bad shield ranks that have theoretical physical use:
Thief: Goes bows, but has an A there so that's not unexpected.
Merchant: Bows C, Spears S: bows outdamage spear+shield, but not by major amounts and Bloody Shield is pretty powerful. Wash?
Red Mage: Sword A, Bows C: Bows will more solidly outdamage here, Sword A won't outcompete Spears S.  Bow's valid for RM here.
Salvemaker: Uh if you don't allow offense items, Bow B is their best option for actually doing anything. But if you allow specials, they probably go staves for the super? idk.
Performer: Uhhh, hum. Not sure what the best storebought fist is, it may outdo A Sword, though. Bows look to be a bit weaker for them.
Conjurer: Probably goes knuckles or bows, yes.

so yeah I guess you have a point, bows/knuckles are probably best for some of these people esp. Red Mage so it has an actual offense.

Re: items, yeah, I'd actually probably limit Salvemaker to spending 15k (about average over all boss fights using them, I'd guess? some fights higher in which I shadowflared, some fights lower in which I didn't need much item/healing) so they'd get 2x shadowflare at best. Merchant I'd say 22k thanks to More Money, so.

While I'm thinking about it:

Specials: Require performing certain actions X times. Basically high damage + some stat buff listed that lasts until the song ends (four rounds, less if you're doing Brave shenanigans since the song plays through menu options - I'd say three turns), occasionally elemental/slay (creature)/status. Matters rarely in a duel, but so everyone has a compiled list (I'm referencing a FAQ for this):

Sword: Brave 10/20/30 times. Possibly decent for Spell Blade, who can use drain sword to keep durability up. Otherwise won't likely see use.
Rank 1: ST, PDef -25% down on target, Hit # up +20% on allies. Hits 5 times for 0.6 average phys damage/hit.
Rank 2: MT, +35% PAtk allies, hits for 2x average phys dam.
Rank 3: ST, +50% PAtk allies, hits for 6x average phys dam.

Axe: Kill 5/10/15 enemies with physicals. This will never see duel use unless you allow people to enter with a special prepped (I definitely wouldn't)
Rank 1: MT, +20% PDef allies, hits for 1.5x average physdam.
Rank 2: ST, +35% hit #, 5 hits for 0.8x average damage per hit
Rank 3: ST, +50% PDef allies, hits for 6x damage, base earth elemental

Spear: Deal physical damage to 10/20/30 enemies. Slow in a duel but may occasionally get used.
Rank 1: ST, +300% crit rate allies, hits for 3x average phys damage.
Rank 2: ST, +35% PAtk allies, hits 6 times for 0.6x average damage, has a chance to paralyze (unsure on odds).
Rank 3: MT, +50% PAtk allies, hits for 5x average damage, fire element.

Rod: Cast magic 10/20/30 times. It's another option for BMs and RMs, I guess.
Rank 1: ST, +20% MAtk allies, hits for 1.5x average damage (does this use MAtk?).
Rank 2: MT, +35% MAtk allies, enemies debuffed -15% PAtk/MAtk/PDef/MDef for 4 turns. No damage. (1)
Rank 3: MT, +50% MAtk allies, hits for 5x average damage (does this use MAtk?). Gets an added *150% (so 7.5x) against demon type enemies.

Staff: Heal 10/20/30 times. Items work for this, so it's a Salvemaker option, and other classes with minor healing can find a way to use this.
Rank 1: +100% Healing Magic effectiveness, Heals all allies. At endgame it's still basically a fullheal (6-7k to 5k HP), though that may scale with Norende options allowed. (2)
Rank 2: +35% Speed all allies, buffs all allies +25% PAtk/MAtk/PDef/MDef for 4 turns. (3)
Rank 3: ST damage, +50% MAtk allies, hits for 7x average damage (does this use MAtk? Pretty sure not but), gets an added *150% (so 10.5x) vers. Undead.

Knife: Use 5/10/15 items. Only Salvemaker would wind up having access to this, if anyone, and their physical offense is horrific. Still, for the record:
Rank 1: ST, +20% hit # all allies, hits 5 times at 0.7x damage each.
Rank 2: ST, +35% hit # all allies, hits 15 times at 0.3x damage each.
Rank 3: ST, +50% hit # all allies, hits 10 times at 0.7x damage each.

Bow: Hit elemental/species weakness on 5/10/15 enemies. No elemental bows exist IIRC, and Rangers don't get a slay human option, so this really won't see use.
Rank 1: ST, +300% crit rate allies, 3x phys damage.
Rank 2: ST, +35% hit # allies, hits 5 times at 0.8x damage each, fire elemental.
Rank 3: MT, +50% MDef allies, 3x phys damage, light elemental.

Katana: Default 5/10/15 times. This is a legit option if allowed, and probably the most prevalent special that could see use outside of staff.
Rank 1: ST, +20% PAtk allies, 2x phys damage, inflicts paralyze (low odds?).
Rank 2: MT, +900% crit chance (!) allies, 2x phys damage, water element.
Rank 3: ST, +50% speed allies, hits 5 times at 1.2x damage each.

Knuckles: Critical 3/6/9 times. This... isn't that easy to build up if only due to the inconsistent crit rate. Still, Monks may appreciate it.
Rank 1: ST, +20% PAtk allies, 3x phys damage
Rank 2: ST, +35% hit # allies, hits 16 times for 0.3x damage each.
Rank 3: ST, +50% PAtk allies, 5x damage, lightning element.

Finally, these can all be customized. Any that deal damage to enemies (everything except Staff 1/2 and Rod 2) can be given up to 150% additional damage, an element of choice, the option of slaying a monster type of choice (-NOT- Humanoid), and the ability to try and inflict a status of choice. This can all be done simultaneously (can't choose two monster types or two elements, etc,  but can have one of each category simultaneously)

The first staff ability can have additional healing, status curing (any status in game), MP healing, and BP healing (of up to 2 points per use). Very, very handy for WM, as it lets them basically healtank even harder through enemy offense if needed and give a few extra turns. Again, this can all be on simultaneously.

The second staff ability can buff PAtk/MAtk/PDef/MDef/Speed/Evade/Crit% further, give a status resistance effect, give an element resist effect, and have the duration of all this (except the Speed buff) enhanced by up to 5 turns.

The second rod ability can debuff PAtk/MAtk/PDef/MDef/Speed/Accuracy, debuff status resistance, make an enemy element-weak, and have the duration of all this (except the MAtk buff) extended for up to 5 turns.

I'm providing this for a better idea of what's doable with the specials for informed decisions. Many won't even see DL use; staves/katanas/swords will have the most consistent ones, but since the cast is on average going to be good at blitzing and bad with protracted battles, even they won't be common.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh yeah if this for some reason in debate, all classes can use all (legal) equipment. If some have better ranks in some things then they benefit more from using said things. There are plenty of times I've wanted to use an equip despite a low rank, though (shields most obviously, but weapons which boost MAtk/Mind as well since for some reason the rank only affects the raw Atk making it pretty academic in the case of, say, rods).

[Pyro]

Some of the weapons can be a bit obnoxious though, like say every class ever trying to dual-wield Assasin Daggers for turn 1 Instant Death (and no damage). This is an advantage of bows and daggers however, so I suppose it is fair for Hunters/Ninjas/Thieves to get to use these weapons.

[Dark Holy Elf]

If they're not better at inflicting ID with them than any other class, they deserve no credit for it.

Personally I'd ban such weapons (or more accurately, their added status) because they're completely non-unique, just like I do with FFX unless you want that entire cast to have 100% sleep and 100% zombie. (I think those were the statuses anyway.)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

This leads to a minor subquestion: one of the classes has a skill that causes high damage to poisoned combatants, but their only access to poison status comes from a storebought rod. I don't think this is terribly relevant for them other than more efficient offense - though them having access to Sleep Swords -would-, since they have a skill that IDs sleeping fighters. Would this classify as unique enough or tough luck? (My own kneejerk goes to "yeah sorry", but wanted to hear other thoughts in the matter)

Also, on the matter of equipment steals from randoms, I see no reason why not allow them - BD's steal command is good, the system allows for practical stealing through odds buffing in a multitude of ways (like Freelancer's Prayer and MT stealing -and- a skill that doubles the amount of items earned per successful steal) + a strong Mug command + Brave mechanics and the stealing isn't stupid like FFIX in limiting the amount of items you can get because screw you). It's functionally not very different from WA4's DL equipment set, which comes almost entirely from rare drops that are easy to get. Steals from BOSSES are another matter, since those are fundamentally limited and I'd probably not let them fly freely.

So yeah, I'd probably allow the Iceflame Shields and Dark Shields if they can be stolen from randoms.

[Pyro]

Hunter and Arcanist are the classes better at inflicting statuses with those weapons, because of passives that boost accuracy and status odds respectively.

Arcanist only cares about sleep which is not storebought anyway. Her damage will come from her ultimate attack.

How should self-damage factor into damage averages?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I think NEB has an equation handy to calculate the effective damage post-factoring HP loss. I'm not sure how it works in practice, since it, IIRC, also required some degree of reverse-engineering average calculations.

[Cmdr_King]

0. I'd ignore Brave/Default (for PCs) in general, as part of a larger trend of ignoring systemic traits of characters (eg. FE counters, RH switching, Persona knockdown).  I'd want to look at how Templar strategies shake down with it and possibly evaluate them for usage but yeah, self-consistent interps and all.

1. Job stat topic (where the PCs are Monk/White Mage/Black Mage/Knight/etc...) or PC-specific stat topic (Tiz/Agnes/Ringabel/Edea)? The former is the same as FF5's job stat topic or the FFT/XF generic stat topics. The latter would involve allowing some kind of jobs... probably the ones that the PCs are 'advertised' as upon obtaining a new job.

A PC topic would be cool, but a job topic is absolutely essential.

2. Normal or Hard mode stat topic. This affects PCs because it impacts the relative value of defense (Hard mode makes high-def PCs less tanky, for example). Obviously it has a pretty huge impact on bosses.

I played normal as a datapoint, and in general I think middle-difficulty is correct for DL purposes.

3. Norende village. An optional minigame that unlocks equips and special moves. Getting far in this minigame involves connecting to the internet and leaving your DS in Sleep Mode rather than shutting it off when not in use.

Hm.  Other shops kinda peak as C4 equipment, and the game basically assumes you're diversifying your classes enough for gear from treasure chests to sustain you at all subsequent points.  However, at a minimum I wouldn't allow the L11 equipment; Falcon Knives are immensely overcentralizing (like, every class wants those instead of their native proficiencies) in particular.  As well I'm not entirely sure how much Norende helps on weapons because the shop basically shafts mages and monks in favor of more swords.  Still, I also feel like the topic will look a lot closer to endgame with the norende equips than without with the level 10 shops, so I lean towards allowing it.

4. Endgame Level. Job Levels are easy enough to max, but the the actual level the game is beaten at will vary depending on when the game is beaten and how much, if any, grinding is done. Endgame level will affect damage scales due to varying PC attack stats but constant enemy defense stats.

I kinda levelled up to beat Vampire in C4 which is... nooot intended as far as the game's concerned.  I was about level 65 when I did so, and I think if we take the topic as C6 somewhere between that and L70 would be appropriate.
I finished Finale: Bravely Default at level 90 for reference, then went BACK and did the other Finale chapter.  Yeaaah it was sad.

5. The usable form of certain bosses will be in question, along with some boss' actions in combat that may be construed as not usable by them in a 'legal' battle.

C6 for the first Finale chapter (and Vampire) sounds about right to me, yeah.  Other bosses... yeah, just use their first appearances.  For the most part everyone except Barras and Holly are pretty similar in their non-C8 battles as I recall.  Barras doesn't care THAT much and Holly's the cast scrub anyway.  The C8 forms are so utterly different from the preceeding four forms I'm not even inclined to allow them, let alone consider them default.)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You guys levelled up to beat the Vampire asterisk-bearer? I found the fight was mainly knowing how his patterns and moves work (and found him very viable at C4 as is, which is good because otherwise one of the class's money moves becomes unavailable until god knows when). If you don't understand how that particular boss rolls to a somewhat decent degree, he's perfectly capable of blowing you up no matter what level you are because of his number game gimmicks, but he can get very badly walled by freaking Utsusemi (a Ninja -L2 skill-). I honestly found the world 1 fight easier than the world 2 fight and I had a huge number of mastered jobs over the first fight... but then, personal experience means nothing.

[Cmdr_King]

Point, but I don't think a single move that you'd have to blow every single characters secondary slot on constitutes intentional design really.  More to the point, best as I could tell the fight is identical regardless of when you do it in C4-6 (same moves, same HP total, and if there's minor buffs in other stats I didn't notice), and the stats line up pretty well with the C6 Finale final, so better to take it at its latest point and all that.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Actually, I used it only on one person and didn't even use it that much (there's an exploit with his AI you can use to trivialize Bone Crush, but I mostly just kept healed to spoil it, though it also spoils Energy Burst, which was what I mostly used to handle. And he telegraphs -that- move by using Battle Thirst first, which -also- gets walled by Utsusemi). There are other, less readily available and more esoteric means to handle it without knowing the basic mechanics behind the moves, but the fundamentals are mostly knowing his Energy Burst pattern and knowing how Bone Crush works. Mind, it's simpler to do it on C6 - and, scaling-wise, I'd take him as that - but, as far as in-game optimum performance goes for getting mileage of his class, I think it may be a better idea to face him at C4, though his contrivances at C4 -definitely- require some setup tailoring to handle at that point (those DO require slapping Spirit Ward on your entire party. Good thing it's a L1 ability on the class).

(Basically, I'm going off thinking you can't get Fireball until the very endgame if you don't get it at C4. And Fireball is pretty much the money ST damage skill on the class. White Wind also qualifies, but White Wind isn't as useful.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Idly, Snow, re your comments in the Futurama thread, where do you know BD boss status vulnerabilities from?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Some of the FAQs on the game point them out. I've done some testing and confirmed quite a few of them to be true, but they -do- have some degree of resistance to the status they can suffer, which gets higher as the game advances. Which, honestly, means trying to exploit them isn't too efficient due to short duration. It makes Spell Fencers with Status Amp pretty cool, though!

[Dark Holy Elf]

The reason I ask is I notice sleep is on that vulnerability list and there were a couple of bosses were I used sleep spellblade to control a summoned minion (rather effectively I might add) then used that same PC to attack the boss on other turns and never saw sleep kick in even once, which seems improbable if the susceptibility chance was anything above 5%. I've never tried to hit a boss with the other listed statuses (just poison) so I dunno if that's sleep being special or those bosses being special or what.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I think the base odds on Sleep Sword are pretty low (the -weapon- itself is listed as 25% in-game, and I've only seen sleep connect once via physicals ever, both with Spellsword and with the weapon itself). I've started hitting bosses only after using Status Amp (though, in fairness, I only -discovered- those vulnerabilities by the time I got Arcanist). And I wouldn't be surprised if the resistance was subtractive either - and, hilariously, one of the most often immuned statuses on those bosses is -Poison-. I'll be rather honest and say that, given the resistance and erratic duration on BD status, I never found trying to status them a terribly effective strategy. But it's there. And there may be errors on the listed vulnerabilities anyway.

[Pyro]

Spellblade's Sleep Sword magic is 75% even. Bosses just seem to resist status by some godawful high number.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

That makes some degree of sense. I'm not sure -how- stats interact with Spellblade accuracy post-bases (magic is pretty simple, and Int plays a huge role on it), though Poison Rod was one that I found bizarrely accurate. That might have been just leaving Status Amp on and not noticing, though.

[dude789]

Figured I'd throw in my two cents.

0: I'm not a fan of a 3 turn average with a 4x brave at the end at all. It more than doubles the damage average and almost ensures that all but the very best damage dealers will have substantially below average damage on a per turn basis. I don't want to throw it out, but doing things like limiting the amount of times you can brave or default could help prevent having a cast of Godlikes and heavies who can quadra act at will to end a fight. Maybe prevent them from letting their BP go below -1? That way at least they'd have to have a few dead turns before unleashing the multi act. That way the cast can't blitz everyone immediately. Opposing buffers would have a chance to prepare for the damage surge or blitzers could just take them out faster while they wait to get the turns.

1. I'd just go with job classes. We didn't give classes to the FF5 pcs and giving them jobs based on crystals is less arbitrary than jobs based on class intro videos.

2. Normal mode. The bosses already seem like they would be better in the DL than in game. No need to flood godlike with a bunch of hard mode bosses.

3. I think special moves are fine. I don't know how far it goes up, but they seem like neat little limit breaks from what I've acquired so far. 

4. Only at the third continent so can't speak for this one.

5. Only allow bosses actions they can use in game. If they only brave certain attacks, then so be it. Brave is already a really good action for bosses. Also they can only brave when they've reached the appropriate health thresholds where they start doing it ingame.

[dude789]

If they're not better at inflicting ID with them than any other class, they deserve no credit for it.

Personally I'd ban such weapons (or more accurately, their added status) because they're completely non-unique, just like I do with FFX unless you want that entire cast to have 100% sleep and 100% zombie. (I think those were the statuses anyway.)

Is status hit rate based on a per hit basis or is it a flat rate for a weapon? I think that a Ninja who hits 10 times with a 5% per hit ID dagger should be able to wield it and get credit for the ID compared to a character who only hits 3x with it. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

a) I believe it's a flat rate (I've observed "mostly missed" attacks inflict status at a comparable rate to anything else, and the fact that the game says "25% chance to do ___" is also a hint), though more testing should confirm that.
b) The gap in hit count between classes at equal job level is nowhere near 10 vs. 3. (edit: in particular, it should be noted that weapon rank has no effect on hit count, just on Atk stat... which is irrelevant if we're discussing the weapons as pure status options.)

[interrobangbang]

Something of note that I just confirmed: a boss with 0 MP cannot use MP-reliant skills. This doesn't mean skills cost MP for them (I MP Busted a notable endgame boss to check this) but it does mean that without MP, spells and MP-costing abilities don't work.

They definitely have inflated MP pools, however; this was a good... 10k MP damage?