The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Dhyerwolf on January 31, 2009, 04:58:23 AM
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9)
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS)
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3)
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS)
Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1)
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5)
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3)
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3)
Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC)
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8)
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9)
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF)
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2)
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC)
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3)
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9)- PC Beatrix OHKOs very easily with Holy
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS)- Gut of Cecilia having nastier stuff on turn 1, and maybe also being faster, IIRC.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3)- I guess...
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS)- Well, I guess Seymour can switch his support to me, yeah...Doesn't like Heat's ability to mess with his elemental damage type though.
Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1)- Don't want to think too hard/Lucian hitting a weakness doesn't help much.
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5)- Unsure when I'd see Zeno's limit kicking in.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3)
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3)- Confusion with 50% of making the enemy hit either themselves or you=I will side with the enemy hitting you first turn. Angela only needs one hit.
Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC)
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8)
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9)- Can drop some Mdef to get another point of speed, putting her above average.
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF)- MT attack until he's has the shot with hit with the OHKO smash damage.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2)
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC)
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3)
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - Unless Beatrix had something really shiny?
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3) - Uh huh.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS) - How far away was Lightning?
Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1)
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5)
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - uh
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3) - Gut says Poo can't win in time.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7) - 'k.
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - Taya had lightning... or was that just the main?
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - Unless Beatrix had something really shiny?
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - Taya had lightning... or was that just the main?
PC Beatrix's Holy does 1.4 PC HP damage when she leaves (5k when most of the cast is sub 1k!)
Taya doesn't have Lightning, but even by the 3x you go by, Taya can probably heal lock with any spell (And her cheapest is...8 MP, so 7 uses of that+Atlas 1 before she runs out of MP). Granted, then the most comes down to if she can double in time, although since gets an extra turn when she does nothing since Yukari cant' OHKO (Two if Yukari can't 2HKO!).
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - The kind of temp scaling that massively inflates their worth Laike-style -always- leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Beatrix OHKO hype is no.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS) - Kneejerk is Ceci is faster. This completely murders KOS-MOS.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3) - I allow Lavos to summon the other parts, much like I allow Heat to summon the damned tentacles. So, um. Yeah.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS) - Goes first, quite possibly 2HKOs and may well not need to. Seymour really hates getting walled elementally.
Heavy:
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Nel doesn't get 2HKOed and may well 2HKO, and has tons of healing. She even blocks Fayt's paralysis, and Fayt might end up -not- immuning Nel's Freeze to boot.
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3) - Angela isn't even status-vulnerable while charging, and Poo's status are crappy. That's more or less that.
Middle:
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8) - uh
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF) - Hm. That strategy probably actually works. He may have issues hitting Florina, but she gets 2HKOed and I don't think she two-turns Mags with an Iron Sword.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7) - Fries.
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - *OHKO.*
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC) - ALENIA.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3) - Eh.
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9)- Any average that has a temp like Beatrix OHKO in an FF9 stat spread seems utterly insane to me.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS)
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3)- I think he 3HKOs and lives to see that. Huh.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS)
Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1)- Delusion+Protect. Saturos is fairly quick and decent on HP.
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5)- I 'm really kneejerking this as a close fight. Probably will vote Kevin. He needs basically most of the calls in his favor (2HKOing, not getting parried) but I see him getting those. More to the point I'm not ever really going to give BoF5 bosses close calls in fights thanks to Wyrm existing.
Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC)- Can't vote, death to Lucia.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8)
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)- Probably Cleo.
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC)
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3)- Neither fight deserve commentary.
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9): Isn't OHKOed. See Snow.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Cecilia doesn't get to go first often in Godlike, and doesn't have to here to boot.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3): Still not sure how I view Lavos, but I doubt it's in a way that would cost him this.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS): Gelid Torrent + Inferno Roar comes pretty close to taking Seymour out before he gets a turn. So even if you give Seymour control of his shifting, it doesn't matter.
Heavy:
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5): Zeno tends to smash when not spoiled.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Pretty amusing. Actually Fayt being faster makes it a bit interesting, but he doesn't 2HKO, neither statuses, and Nel probably does 2HKO (and heals if she doesn't).
Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC): Lucia is Light.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8): I... guess? Unless I decide to see Caellach above-PC durability. Nah, can't justify that.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Will look into this later. Dhyer, is Eiko still above average with everyone twinking comparably for speed? (I'm kinda doubting it, but if you know offhand...)
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF): His special moves get a big accuracy boost against flyers, which sinks Florina here.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7): Things Cleo doesn't need a Fire Rune for.
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC): Things Kid doesn't need techs for.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3): Things Peco doesn't need his skillset for.
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Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - The kind of temp scaling that massively inflates their worth Laike-style -always- leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Beatrix OHKO hype is no.
How would this be inflating her worth? Holy is a massive time bomb during the only time in the party, and she basically OHKOs whenever you see her in the party. Saying Beatrix OHKOs feels a lot more like what actually happens in game instead of saying her damage is kind of average and middling. By this theory, Miranda and Alonso should be straight up punies.
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Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Will look into this later. Dhyer, is Eiko still above average with everyone twinking comparably for speed? (I'm kinda doubting it, but if you know offhand...)
No, she isn't.
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Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - The kind of temp scaling that massively inflates their worth Laike-style -always- leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Beatrix OHKO hype is no.
How would this be inflating her worth? Holy is a massive time bomb during the only time in the party, and she basically OHKOs whenever you see her in the party.
It's incredibly unfair to the rest of the PC cast, and way too convenient for temps. Yay, she's overpowered due to an entirely situation-based scenario that doesn't keep up as the game advances, and, as a PC, she wouldn't be able to enjoy it were she to stay as a permanent PC due to the rest of the cast catching up. Beatrix with endgame levels and equips scaled against an endgame party (which is how I tend to take temps as a whole) wouldn't have this. By that logic, you may as well take Rune as his overlevelled earlygame temp form.
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On the other hand, who is to say that if she was purposefully given a final form that it would be perfectly in-line with how her temp form scaled up exactly? She's not in the game as it advances, so it can't be said how she would then formulate out towards the endgame. Rune is specifically designed to be intregrated into an endgame party, but Beatrix is not.
I also don't see how it's unfair to the rest of the PC cast, since she isn't there when they are taken in the DL.
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It is unfair to them to cherry-pick a temp's appearance at her absolute best - especially when it's not his/her only one. Beatrix is a fine example of that - while all of the other PCs are forced to their endgame averages. Once again, the Rune corollary applies, he'd kill for that scaling, and plenty of other PCs would like to be scaled against different points in a single game. Why the temps get that privilege while full-fledged PCs can't? It's just a part of the whole thing about temp PCs being scaling nightmares.
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It's incredibly unfair to the rest of the PC cast, and way too convenient for temps. Yay, she's overpowered due to an entirely situation-based scenario that doesn't keep up as the game advances, and, as a PC, she wouldn't be able to enjoy it were she to stay as a permanent PC due to the rest of the cast catching up. Beatrix with endgame levels and equips scaled against an endgame party (which is how I tend to take temps as a whole) wouldn't have this. By that logic, you may as well take Rune as his overlevelled earlygame temp form.
Taking temps to some imaginary situation where they live/stay in the party to be an endgame PC doesn't strike you as twisting the actual game? I mean, if I said "Belial's damage sucks at endgame" but scaled temps to the time they leave I would expect to be called out for it. As far as "Cherry picking" goes, I hear no such accusations against people who hype earlier forms of bosses that are better than their last/later appearances. Ultros comes to mind, and so does Jeremy. (I would take the last temp appearance in most cases, with possible exceptions like Asch where the temp appearance is a remote sidequest where it is tossed in)
Scaling temps to the time they leave is no different from scaling bosses to the time they are fought. As far as damage caps go? A midgame SO2 boss who overkilled by 3x (you can stop laughing) would be taken as such, and most anyone who went "But endgame bosses can only do 1.1x overkill or so!" would be ignored by the majority. Same philosophy applies for Dhyer and myself. You are free to have a different opinion but nothing you say is going to make it objectively right. Bear in mind that the view you are espousing is the one that is the one that is essentially creating an imaginary PC that is present at endgame. Also see Dhyer's comments on Miranda/Alonso.
Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9): Still thinking. Ryu couldn't get any Holy Resist? That surprises me. Also: *IS* Dhyer hyping something other than the last temp appearance here?
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Prison I guess.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3): Any match with Lavos is a headache, but I'll just nod smile and move along.
Heavy:
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5): A good shot of OHKOing damage or whatever should do it.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Has healing.
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3): Poo's chance of winning through status is 40%. Angela's is 60%
Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC): Lucia is ranged so the boss form is screwed. PC form... Oh for the love of... I think her PC form wins. Ah screw it. I'm going to get a drink.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8): CORNELLLL BUSSSSTTEEERRR.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Eiko isn't 2HKO'd by Volke regardless so just smites his horrible Res with Mini and Holy's him into oblivion? Dunno about speed, but I guess that should work.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2): Does Taya OHKO here? Might have had Lightning damage? One or the other should work, I'll look later.
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC): It is Alenia.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3): Peco looks like a god here.
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The temps get that because there's no real way to be sure what they would be like in an endgame party, since they're not there and all. I'm not sure what you're talking about with cherry picking their best appearance, either; I was under the impression that most people, like me, take their last appearance if there's more than one. Though I could be wrong on that.
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9): Still thinking. Ryu couldn't get any Holy Resist? That surprises me. Also: *IS* Dhyer hyping something other than the last temp appearance here?
I'd definetely feel the fool if I hadn't, but Eiko/Amarant being in the damage average tells me I don't have to worry and that I'm going by the last form. Also makes sense as I don't think you could change her equips in the first form (And she may not have even had Holy? Not sure on that one though).
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Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Ceci going first.
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1): Er... gogo Heat Flash hype! (totally can't vote)
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Blahblah healing is awesome.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Mini I guess? Volke takes like... ten attacks to land Lethality.
Oh, and tossing in that I'm on the "lol Beatrix smash" side of interp.
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Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS): Gelid Torrent + Inferno Roar comes pretty close to taking Seymour out before he gets a turn. So even if you give Seymour control of his shifting, it doesn't matter.
Inferno Roar can't be used if both arms are up so how does this Gelid Torrent + Inferno Roar actually happen exactly.
How does Heat work exactly. Can he uses his Mt moves for both his actions? Can his support use sweep twice?
And lastly his actions are two + one for each of the support he has right?
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Happens as soon as the tentacles are down. Which is from turn 1 to some people, either due to not allowing him to start with them (because no other boss gets to start with support) or due to not allowing them at all.
Main body can use MT stuff twice. Sweep doesn't matter, he doesn't want that here. The ST tentacle physicals are stronger and can target the mortiphasms.
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Beatrix is still pretty good even when you've built up Steiner at the point where you have to go through Alexandria with them so yeah. Then again Ryus are always pretty evil. Hmm.
Godlike -
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS)
Heavy:
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) I'm tempted to vote for Fayt on Side Kick invincibility cheese but everyone apart from Soppy would probably burn me so. Healing vs no healing! O wait Fayt could use long O to launch Nel and do his juggly thing with Divine Bla ... *is shot*
Middle:
Can't vote ;_; *waves Eiko flag*
Light:
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC) - Die in the fiery pits of hell. Dislike these characters so *much* >.>
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - Someone put Beatrix in his party by some cheatcode, and she pretty roughly owned at the end-game as well with consistent 9,999 damage with Climhazzard, so I'm satisfied enough with her damage hype.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3)
Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1) - But then, I have little respect for VP.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Healing, I suppose.
Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC) - Oh Lucia what did I do to you? ;_;
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7)
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC)
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3) - Muku tries anything, Peco probably counters him. Or just heals it straight up. Or sleeps him. Or uh, yeah, this is... Lol. Peco for champion!
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Oh, so it entirely depends on temp issues? Fuck, abstaining on that match, then. I can't be bothered thinking about how I see temps again.
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Am I correct in remembering Fire Emblem weaknesses to = 2x damage?
If so then Ena is in a lot of trouble.
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Also.. I'm with Dhyer, Cryo and the others on the temp Beatrix issue.
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It was some multiplier to the weapon in question's power(x3, I think), with Str/Mag added in after. Don't think it matters here though, as I remember Lucia's spells being non-elemental in spite of the animations (EB:C, at least). It's been a while though.
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x2 in FE9, actually.
And even with a modest power boost, Lucia's damage still fails miserably.
But then, I have little respect for VP.
What on earth does that mean? I'm trying to read this in a way that doesn't just make you sound biased against a cast as a whole, and wondering if there's an interp that leads to this, and I can't think of one that makes sense here. Oh, yes, you could do something like ban energy storage, which certainly hurts most of the cast... but helps Lucian.
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It was some multiplier to the weapon in question's power(x3, I think), with Str/Mag added in after. Don't think it matters here though, as I remember Luca's spells being non-elemental in spite of the animations (EB:C, at least). It's been a while though.
Lightning Bomb and Thunder Blow are electric, at least that's how they always seemed to work in-game and what their description says. Plasma Rain, Napalm Shot and one or two of the others may be non-elemental though.
Electric and Infinite Heal Litany-70%MHP (not to mention Magic Barrier) seals things here for Ena.
EDIT: Dark Holy Elf
Bad maybe, but Hardly miserable. It's not even end game worst kind of bad. Plus, we're talking about near double that with the bonus. Almost getting close to Jean level damage.
EDIT 2:
You know, I was looking things over real quick and realized that with Heal Litany, Lucia may outlast Ena even without the damage bonus. I'll have to look into it a little better to be sure. I don't have the time right now. about to walk out the door.
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Godlike:
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (ACF) vs KOS-MOS (XS) - ACF Ceci is just so sad
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS) - Hi Seymour! Bye Seymour!
Middle:
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF)
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7) - Suikoden 1 always wins
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - SHINING FORCE always wins
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Beatrix: This issue is really messy thanks to FF9's damage cap. It'd be impossible for her to break the curve as much as she does early late, which is the problem - in most games, you could assume that they stayed that broken, but FF9's system insures for a fact that that isn't the case. That said I do agree that people should be scaled against the time you face them. FE7's Lundgren is, for his stated level, a total wuss at endgame - but you don't fight him at endgame, you fight him early on. Not sure there is a good answer to this aside from "force Bea to use her boss form."
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Inclined to lean KOS-MOS? Cecilia's speed isn't great to begin with and it's getting ruined. Also XS3 KOS has a fairly clean win, I think, Blood Dancer->OHKO and no amount of buffing saves Cecilia from it.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - I'd just like to point out that "LOL Healing" isn't a good answer here, as this fight clearly takes place in the SO3 battle system and Healing would force Nel to stand still and get smashed by Fayt's attacks. Inclined to think Nel anyway, though - they're both pretty fast at scampering around the field, but I think Fayt's long range attacks or attempts to get into short range (Side Kick) are generally worse than Nel's. She can probably harry him from a distance with stuff like Ice Daggers, while Fayt's Dimension Door or Air Raid is too telegraphed vs. a human opponent who can just run away. (And as for Ethereal Blast, uh, yeah, no, that's not hitting ever.)
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC) - Okay, for the record I voted DNR for Ena, but... if she's using her boss form, there's no way she can move. I know that movement is usually thrown out in the DL, but this is more like "how the battle works." In-game you can slaughter her without ever getting touched, and if there was a boss in another game that couldn't hurt you unless you used short-range attacks, it'd clearly be held against them as well. So yeah. Ena almost always loses against someone with a spammable ranged attack for me.
Except for Lucia. Lucia's damage for Atomic Burn is listed at a mighty ~250 or so damage in the stat topic against an average of 680 (!!). And Lucia's lightning damage is EVEN WORSE than Atomic Burn. I guess you could use Lucia on late Disc 2 and throw out her final Zophar form, where the damage average wouldn't be as obscenely high, and Lucia's damage herself needs to be factored into the new average to bring it down a bit, but the point remains. Lucia can't really do damage. And Ena's resistance is stupid, at least the boss form - good mages like Soren who can do 15-20 damage to randoms can only do 1-3 (perhaps doubled to 6) to her, and if you were unlucky might easily tink. So none of Lucia's damage can even break Ena's resistance, so no damage doubling anyway. If you throw out subtractive defense, then Ena's Resistance is still functionally 80% magic resistance, so Lucia is only doing 1-2 FE9 damage a round - easily soaked by Renewal.
So yeah. Nobody ever does damage. Since Ena is a boss and if you refuse to finish her off in-game, you don't advance, and Lucia is a PC, I'm tiebreaking for Ena here. Fail, Lucia.
Against the PC form (which I never got so I wouldn't allow anyway)... Lucia starts spamming her defense booster. Lunar2 defense buffs wore down pretty quickly, but were awesome while they lasted and stacked, so I think Lucia can survive Ena's assault by spamming healing, with the only worries coming toward the end of Ena's transformation when the buff has declined. Then Lucia needs to actually kill Ena while she's back in human form - if she stalls against PC Ena, eventually Ena will get a crit, or if you really respect the defense buff / disrespect Ena damage, two crits in a row. Problem is, even human Ena has great Resistance (against a higher average though). She probably STILL just shrugs off even Atomic Burn for 0 damage. So Ena wins again, though more cleanly this time.
Also I'm inclined to force Lucia to use AI anyway since that's how she works in-game, which guarantees a loss. (Though Lucia-on-AI needs an immediate downgrade to Light.)
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8) - Kornell for heavy. Kornell Buster cancels (as does his basic physical). Personally I'd say that this turns off Fire Emblem counters, as in-game a cancel sends the character back to square 1 in which they can't really do anything. Sure something pre-emptive like Hamedo or Flash would beat it, but after-the-fact counters don't seem in flavor. Also I give Caellach last strike since he's another non-moving FE boss, but once Kornell engages then he's normal since Caellach is at least smart enough to have a ranged attack. So yeah, WOW->Buster->Buster. No way Caellach is killing in one hit unless he gets a crit. Heck, Kornell might not even need the WOW.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9) - Remind me why Eiko would even bother with Mini? She's got a very very solid 2HKO off Holy here, and even if Volke is doubling, I'm not sure he 4HKOs, which is what he needs. I guess Volke might evade, so sure, Mini -> 2 Holies then, but it seems like Volke needs to get lucky a bit too fast here.
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All Grandia 3 techs are technically infinite range, so anyone who hypes a melee boss like Caellach countering them needs to be shot anyway.
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I'm pretty sure that Caellach has a range-2 weapon (checking: Yes, he's got a Tomahawk). Since Longbows / Long Range magic is rarer in FE8 than in FE7, I'd be inclined to discount it and let range-2 people counter anything that isn't explicitly hyped as super-long range.
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Kornell Buster cancels
I feel inclined to point out that cancelling doesn't prevent G3's own counters (Revenge). That said if you wanted to translate it to stopping other counters due to its in-game worth I wouldn't object, you can argue Revenge works differently due to the lag.
Also did not realise that move could cancel. Dang.
Interesting match. Both of them should be in Heavy, in my interpretation.
... Volke, Heavy? By your very own post, he might fail to 4HKO Eiko, which says much about his damage. He might also be 2HKOed by Eiko's averagish damage, because his durability isn't hot. Volke's closer to Light than Heavy. (Don't agree with Eiko either, but there's more of an argument there.)
Unless you meant Kornell (easily Heavy with Iron Fist) and Caellach (could make it with good boss respect).
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That bit of nonsense has been edited out. It was from something only mildly related that I C&Ped into the text window (earlier thoughts on Kornell vs. Caellach) and didn't notice was still there. Nah, I'm not waving a Volke for Heavy flag.
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Happens as soon as the tentacles are down. Which is from turn 1 to some people, either due to not allowing him to start with them (because no other boss gets to start with support) or due to not allowing them at all.
Main body can use MT stuff twice. Sweep doesn't matter, he doesn't want that here. The ST tentacle physicals are stronger and can target the mortiphasms.
Wait so sweep can't target the mortiphasms? Anyway whats the point of attacking with the tentacles anyway. Two Mt puts Seymour in water and the tentacles switch two of the nodes to Thunder. Magic smack down afterwards kills heat dead.
Regardless of how you see things I don't really see how people can hype Heats damage. Its barely 2HKO damage in game and thats with the Infernal roar tosses in.
Seymour can just heal himself till the cows come home or the wheel lands in the right place. Whatever comes first
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Heat's damage is well over "barely" 2HKO when multiple actions are summed, and it becomes a very high 2HKO indeed with the opening ice weakness hit. Seymour Omnis' healing is around 5% of his own HP, if you even allow it. There's no way Heat isn't 20HKOing him, so no hyping that.
I'm not sure how I feel about Heat's tentacles messing with the mortiphasms, though. They can't be hit by melee. Not sure how to view that in this fight.
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That bit of nonsense has been edited out. It was from something only mildly related that I C&Ped into the text window (earlier thoughts on Kornell vs. Caellach) and didn't notice was still there. Nah, I'm not waving a Volke for Heavy flag.
Caellach's counters are enough for Heavy you think? The lack of status resistance really seems to hold him back there to me (He also loses to good sluggers, even assuming say PC durability). MT damage is common enough to prevent those counters from really boosting him up into another division.
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Yes, I agree, which is why I didn't post it (or so I thought) and rewrote my comments, and it was a sheer accident that was still there.
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Caellach does have status resistance if forts impart it! I keep meaning to check if they do, like gates/thrones. But lazy, and strangely it's never come up.
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Caellach does have an Iron Rune, so he's immune to criticals at least.
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9): Don't see her OHKOing so there you go. Now, if Beatrix was OHKOing with mid game skills (instead of stuff you get end game)? I might be willing to accept that a bit more.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS): Yeah, she goes first and wins.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3): Think the Durability edge is more in his favor than Lavos has offense.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS): Seymour wants Turn 1 Lighting...
Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1): Saturos Respect is lacking.
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5): Zeno is one of the few Heavies who is better at the slugfesting thing than Kevin is.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Isn't Nel better at like everything compared to Fayt in a duel?
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3): Poo hates status.
Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC): AHAHAHAHA no.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8): Kneejerk.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9): Kneejerk.
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF): Just kind of outdoes Florina in most ways.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7): She gets the Fire Rune to me.
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2): Can't vote!
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC): Isn't Alenia.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3): Peco > Suikoscrubs.
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Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Beatrix (FF9) - I scale temps against when they leave at thier final appearance in the party(so no, not hyping Temp Rune form or any other nonsense like that). Feels kinda weird to me to basically create an endgame form for temps out of whole cloth to use for the DL.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs KOS-MOS (XS) - Goes first, wins.
Lavos (CT) vs Teepo (BoF3) - Lavos respect checking in.
Seymour Guado (FFX) vs Heat (DDS) - I allow him to start with the tentacles, so...kneejerking Heat here.
Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Lucian (VP1) - Saturos basically has...exactly the tools he needs to win this.
Kevin (SD3) vs Zeno (BoF5) - Outslugs. Against Kevin, that's pretty damn impressive.
Fayt Leingod (SO3) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Gut says her tricks and speed win out over his power advantage.
Poo (EB) vs Angela (SD3) - EB hates status.
Middle:
Ena (FE9) vs Lucia (Lunar:EBC) - No vote, go Ena.
Kornell (G3) vs Caellach (FE8) - I'll buy him just out slugging.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Volke (FE9) - Unsure. A bit more respect for Volke and less for Eiko then most makes this one sketchy.
Florina (FE7) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF) - Doen't he have a move that specifically does more damage to opponents in the air? Or was that PC Zed?
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Wil (FE7) - Burnination.
Yukari Takeba (Pers3) vs Taya (SF2) - Doesn't she manage a OHKO here?
Alenia (S5) vs Kid (CC) - Alenia.
Mukumuku (S2) vs Peco (BoF3) - Mukumuku.
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Heat's damage is well over "barely" 2HKO when multiple actions are summed, and it becomes a very high 2HKO indeed with the opening ice weakness hit. Seymour Omnis' healing is around 5% of his own HP, if you even allow it. There's no way Heat isn't 20HKOing him, so no hyping that.
I'm not sure how I feel about Heat's tentacles messing with the mortiphasms, though. They can't be hit by melee. Not sure how to view that in this fight.
So damage, hp and so on are all scaled proberly for bosses, yet healing isn't (Making it near enough completely pointless unless its a healing spell like the one found in Valkyrie profile)? Seymours healing is good enough to keep himself in the fight. As for heats damage I was including all his actions, his damage just doesn't impress me very much.
Thanks for bring that up. I'd completely forgoten about the whole can't be hit by melee unless they are wakka's balls. How can Heat survive then? Lets try this.
*Heat starts without tentacles*
Heat uses Infernal roar and some other Mt move
*Wheel switchs to water*
Seymour if he needs it can heal a bit and the other wateraga spells smack into Heat.
Heat needs to use two Mt moves
Seymour heals more then Heat did.
Two more Mt moves
healing
Mt spells
Healing (Seymour is now at full health)
Mt Moves
Four water spells go to Heat
Repeat.
Now while true Heat can instead decide to not use 2 Mt moves it really doesn't matter. Using one mostly puts him in a bad area as the next node is water while the one after that is thunder.
He can avoid the thunder but not the water.
If Heat summons the tentacles then the fight goes on a bit further but it doesn't matter as the result is the same.
I doubt most would share my view on this fight but I didn't want to be the only one voting for seymour without giving some sort of explanation :P. Not like any of this matters though, Heat has already won.
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So damage, hp and so on are all scaled proberly for bosses, yet healing isn't (Making it near enough completely pointless unless its a healing spell like the one found in Valkyrie profile)?
If Seymour healed himself for 4000 (he doesn't in-game, but assume he did), it would be a complete waste of a turn. It doesn't seem an unfaithful DL translation to say the same happens here.
Even if you want to compare it to average damage... that's something like 10000 at that point in FFX. So he's healing 40% of an average shot, by that logic. Heat still easily does more than that, even with his damage halved by Seymour's MDef.
And yeah, VP Heal is one of the few boss healing moves that ISN'T a wasted turn.
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I thought the only moves that could change the wheels were singletarget ones aimed directly at the appropriate wheel, while MT moves functioned just like ST attacks directed at seymour.
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MF's right. MT attacks don't change the wheel from what I remember seeing on a playthrough video.
Seymour -despises- starting out in such a position that half his elements do nothing to Heat. He likewise despises the fact that Fire(starting) meets Gelid Torrent, and Ice(second phase, IIRC) can and will meet twin Agidyne spam. Really, Heat seems to spoil mostly on elements alone.
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I thought Seymour's Second Phase is Lightning. I remember attacking one of the wheels and it spun to Lightning.
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No, lightning's last. The wheels can be spun in reverse order. (forget whether physicals or magical attacks do it)
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I dont know Angela, so I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure Poo starts with an item in his inventory that immunes or at least resists Brainshock. I see some people saying Angela wins due to confusion and Brainshock is the Earthbound equivalent of confusion.
If she has other status or I am wrong about the what the item does, ignore my ramblings. The item is the "Brain Stone"
Edit: none of the faqs at game faqs agree what the Brain Stone does. Some say it resists all status PSI and some say it only resists certain status. I'm pretty sure the in game description says it prevents brainshock.
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Angela has many statuses, but Confusion isn't one, so no - she's winning with Stone or Freeze or Silence. I think Poo's the one who is supposed to win by confusion, but you can't beat Angela with status.
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ah okay, misunderstood Dyers post then. Thought he was refering to Angela with the confusion comment. Yeah EB doesnt have freeze and stone (well I guess it has Stone (diamond), but nothing even blocks it)
My mistake ^_^