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Author Topic: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1  (Read 1315 times)

Cmdr_King

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RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« on: March 06, 2017, 12:20:38 AM »
Godlike

Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy)
Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis) vs Heat (Digital Devil Saga 2)
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)
Black Mage (Bravely Default) vs Beowulf Kadmus (Final Fantasy Tactics)

Heavy

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina (Breath of Fire IV)
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) vs Mei-ling (SaGa Frontier)
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears)

Middle

Maya (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3)

Light

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII)
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII)
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story)
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superaielman

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2017, 01:12:19 AM »
Godlike

Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy)- Evasion's a problem but Reicher just has too much damage spread too far out.
Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis) vs Heat (Digital Devil Saga 2)- No idea.
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)- Faster and has fire defense.
Black Mage (Bravely Default) vs Beowulf Kadmus (Final Fantasy Tactics)- I think the Aegis Shield is enough?

Heavy

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina (Breath of Fire IV)- Don't think I see her physical resist getting Triple Sword, so OHKO here.
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)- Don't allow spell focusing.  (Eph's kind of toast with spell focusing)
Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) vs Mei-ling (SaGa Frontier)- Don't think Saga can block stun?

Middle

Maya (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)- Kneejerk Maya as kind of bad against fighters.
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)- Fiona  is awful.
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics)- I think I see Izlude as faster. Squall would need to avoid a 2HKO and a counter both to win at that point, which I don't see.
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3)- Should be able to run Frog out of MP.  A low HP Frog Squash might be mildly threatening but eh.

Light

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII)- Good lord this fight.
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII)- I don't think Irvine can prevent Vincent from getting an L3. This is pathetic.
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story)- Faster 5HKO. I think.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 01:27:18 AM by superaielman »
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Random Consonant

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2017, 02:09:58 AM »
Godlike

Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) - I so do not respect Melfice anything enough for him to have a prayer here.
Black Mage (Bravely Default) vs Beowulf Kadmus (Final Fantasy Tactics) - On second thought I don't really care about this and sleep may well be enough anyways so sure

Heavy

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina (Breath of Fire IV) - Physical+Triple Sword shouldn't quite heal lock here
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals) - the focusing it burns us
Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) vs Mei-ling (SaGa Frontier) - Set up for elec defense, Umi durability plot ensues.
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears) - Cresselia used Safeguard!

Middle

Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) - Can outdamage Imbue enough with his normal chain to get a chain+L7 to be lethal before Fiona's bad offense does enough.
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3)

Light

Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII)
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals) - gee how much do i respect a 3500 HP SH2 boss in the final dungeon
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 04:46:53 PM by Random Consonant »

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2017, 04:21:23 AM »
Godlike

No votes

Heavy

Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) vs Mei-ling (SaGa Frontier) - Can't actually vote, but this should be Mei-ling's fight regardless.

Middle

Maya (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII) - Can't think of a good reason to keep Lightning from having this fight in hand with an opening 75% Maya's HP in damage while being faster.  That said, can't vote.
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3) - I...  Think?

Light

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII) - *Sizzle*
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII) - The difference: Irvine can chip and then punch himself in the face to finish with a limit.  Vincent can't.  Then Vincent will find himself sleep/slow-locked if he goes Fairy Ring or Blind/Poison/Slow-locked if he goes Headband, and the latter just lets Irvine wait it out (Irvine's Do Nothing option: activate Shot, fire nothing until the timer runs out) since Vincent is then on a timer and has EVEN MORE issues with damage because blind, and then Irvine can just clean up with Pulse Ammo or something.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2017, 04:41:20 AM »
Godlike

Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy)
Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis) vs Heat (Digital Devil Saga 2)- I guess I'm okay with Tentacles starting out, and Isolde doesn't really have a way to deal efficient MT damage.
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)- Terra has a few things going for her, but at best my thoughts on Ultima's damage is "average". If Empyrea never doubled, this would be Terra's certainly
Black Mage (Bravely Default) vs Beowulf Kadmus (Final Fantasy Tactics)- Aegis Shield is pretty nasty, sure

Heavy

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina (Breath of Fire IV)- It...does seem likely that Hiro's physical can't heal lock.
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)- No spell focusing here for me
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears)

Middle

Maya (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)- WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FF 13 TOPIC? (Not that it matters here I think, since Lightning has good physical damage off better speed)
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)- A bit of a gut reaction, but I agree that with how I view CC, he should be able to build sufficient momentum. Fiona 5HKOing average doesn't help
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3)- Gut reaction. Gallows will heal and slowly build up to large damage (uh...taking damage gave you FP in WA 3, right?)

Light

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII)- I'm not looking up Abadon
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII)- Vincent's L3 does come early, so...I would say sure, but the reality is that Irvine probably just attacks himself and all he needs to not himself in a position where Vincent's laughable physical can finish him off, which I dont' think should be an issue.
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)- I'm not looking up Hien
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story)- NO
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 02:07:05 AM by Dhyerwolf »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2017, 04:54:12 AM »
Godlike

Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy): Not a bad fight, but yeah treating Melfice's evade as ~70% still only brings his durability up to the 4-5 region which isn't enough better than Reicher's to offset Reicher's better offence.
Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis) vs Heat (Digital Devil Saga 2): Grand Gaze should OHKO both tentacles, and since it's a timed card that means Isolde is free to use her own turns to damage Heat. Later in the fight her own turns include lightning damage and insta-break so gg.
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI): Survives Double Grab Hold with the Oath Veil.
Black Mage (Bravely Default) vs Beowulf Kadmus (Final Fantasy Tactics): If Dark is seen as ITE then Black Mage wrecks. I dunno if I buy that, but he's going first. Beowulf must block ID+sleep or he gets wrecked by one of those (and notably, for Random, he can't block those + half darkness), so his HP tumbles into "gets 3HKOed" territory so he absolutely needs 2/4 dodges minimum. And then to land a turn 1 status against above average MDef. It could happen but overall I think I favour Black Mage here.

Heavy

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina (Breath of Fire IV): Depends on how I feel about the Lunar 2 kill point.
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals): Too much magic damage too fast.
Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) vs Mei-ling (SaGa Frontier): Lightning resistance apparently.
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears): Safeguard.

Middle

Maya (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII): Have to think that Maya's bad HP lets Lightning do some mean heal-locks.
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn): Kneejerk of Karsh being able to spike his damage + having an axe.
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics): Izlude is certainly faster and has Counter so the only way Squall is winning this is if he OHKOs, my FFT boss HP respect isn't quite that low.
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3): Can heal off Frog offence, summon lets him blast past Frog Squash at the end.

Light

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII): Abadon is weak to fire and his 17HKO offence doesn't scare Alenia.
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII): Vincent damage sucks so Irvine can likely hit himself into a limit safely.
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals): Tia looks like a god in this pool.
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story): Seems close, not sure. Super's probably right? Winner gets stomped next week anyway.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 02:37:27 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2017, 04:25:27 PM »
Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) - Yeah, I also tend to disrespect Melfice evade against multiple hits -really- hard.
Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis) vs Heat (Digital Devil Saga 2) - As soon as Isolde reaches 75% HP, Ancient Secret starts badly tearing into Heat (five cards with MT LIGHTNING DAMAGE) and even Grand Gaze is troublesome for him. To make matters worse, the timed cards themselves ignore Heat's debuffs.
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI) - Even assuming OK's numbers verbatim (I wouldn't be surprised if they were sorta underpowered for my liking), Terra survives a grab-and-hold doubleact, if barely. I'm pretty sure Empyrea dies before a double, which won't even come particularly fast.
Black Mage (Bravely Default) vs Beowulf Kadmus (Final Fantasy Tactics) - sure

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina Wyndia (Breath of Fire IV) - uh not really sure. Not having actual averages here probably completely muddles my voting capability here.
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals) - I guess?
Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) vs Mei-ling (SaGa Frontier) - I guess. Lightning resistance.
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears) - Safeguard? Oh lord.

Maya (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII) - I'd be sorta surprised if Lightning couldn't 2HKO Maya through Gospel (physical chain => magical chain), given her utterly awful HP.
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Yeah, I suppose.
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3) - Man, Frog offense against infinite healing, even shoddy infinite healing like Gallows'.

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII) - Who?
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII) - Good lord, Vincent.
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals) - Tia, the relative Godlike.
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story) - Actually, doesn't Leon have a 3% mHP regen weapon that has a near-negligible effect on his effective damage? If both 5HKO, quite frankly, that tips him over Llewelyn. This said, this match is irrelevant and pathetic.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2017, 05:12:11 PM »
Full votes in a bit, but am I missing something on Hiro vs. Nina?  According to Pyro's stat topic, Nina's PDur when equipping for status immunity is 0.76.  According to the L2 stat topic, Hiro's Triple Sword is 0.73 PCHP.  Elf later notes that arguably, tested enemy defense is high, so Ronfar should be mildly better and Lemina/Leo mildly worse, but Hiro & Jean should be around the same.  Unless Hiro's physical is utterly puny, like worse than Ronfar level, that should be a solid heal-lock.

If Nina fails to equip for status immunity...  and we presume that drives her durability up enough to evade the heal-lock...  it still doesn't look good?  She 5HKOs here off Pyro's numbers (deals ~1.07 PCHP in 4 shots, Hiro has 1.09 PCHP and above average MDef), but goes first.  So Hiro gets 4 attempts at Concussion sword against 50% resistance.  That's around a 69% chance of hitting the ID, which is close, but probably good enough for me.  (And...  it's not clear if this strategy avoids the heal-lock anyway.)  I think Nina needs super BoF4 speed respect to take this one to get that extra turn in.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2017, 05:19:19 PM »
In my case, it's just that I can only vote on EBO and we don't have averages for -that- (Hiro, compared to EBC, gives up some relative damage for better ID and better equips, which may or may not be relevant here). My memory is way too fuzzy on the numbers specifics for me to weigh in on a match that actually requires numbercrunching.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

OblivionKnight

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2017, 05:33:33 PM »
Godlike

Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) - Yes, probably.  I respect multi-parts way more than anyone else, but I think Reicher still does it
Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis) vs Heat (Digital Devil Saga 2) - Well, see above, just reverse it?
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI) - When I first made the Empyrea notes, I remember being told my level of 32 was a bit too high, so I don't think they're underpowered.  If you want a couple more levels added, each level would be about 10 HP, 2 AGI.  Defense probably doesn't rise enough, I think, to make a huge difference, so you'll need 4-5 levels to get her to not 1-round with physical damage.  Otherwise, boss for me, wins. 

Heavy

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina (Breath of Fire IV) - You know, I had started going with "All" forms back in the day before I stopped voting consistently.  NinaAll wins easily.  Nina4 is a good argument.  Probably err on her side? 
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals) - No reason for me not to allow focusing - that's how it works in-game vs. one target, so easy win.  Also, AmonAll wins everything. 
Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) vs Mei-ling (SaGa Frontier) - Boss form!
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears) - I don't care, but man, wishes she were Chu-Chu so I'd let her grow!

Middle

Maya (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII) - I suppose FF13 wins?  Need to think about how I view them. 
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) - I ignore the weapon triangle, but I also allow storebought spells/elements, so...
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Squall loves his All forms.  Also GFs from the demo?
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3) - Yep

Light

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII) - Uh...who was Abadon?  I can't even hype AbbadonAll here :(
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII) - So...I also allowed limit bars, and I think Vincent is faster?  Allowing him to start with low HP for a limit gets Irvine killed, so...
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals) - Storebought spells!
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story) - LeonAll?  He's also short, and Llewelyn has awful damage (no "storing" of energy, as that's not how it works in-game...so Godlike Lucian, I suppose)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 07:37:00 PM by OblivionKnight »
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Random Consonant

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2017, 05:34:34 PM »
Nina's gamebest Wisdom stat should also drop Concussion Sword's ID rate (which I'm not convinced isn't oversold to begin with) to below turn 4 anyways unless I've missed something like it not actually defending against death or status attached to physicals (in which case the topic could use some overclarification), so whether or not she 5-4s would be irrelevent (she shouldn't for the record, since Hiro is decently fast himself).
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 05:46:24 PM by Random Consonant »

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2017, 07:02:44 PM »
Godlike
Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) - Welp. Bye Melfice.
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI) - Not sure on this one. Empryea apparently has Fire defense so Terra needs to kill with Drain. I don't think she would survive a double grab and hold but I have no idea on DQ8 boss patterns. Voting Empryea for now, but not a bad fight.

Heavy
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears) - Oh right, Safeguard. RIP

Middle
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) - Axe, meet face. Imbue makes this not completely lopsided along with counters, but being on the right side of the triangle + Karsh's innate good stats suggests he takes this on kneejerk
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Easy. Probable 2HKOs, definitely 3HKOs and has initiative to me (due to threat range). So Izlude is guaranteed to kill with attack + counter or attack + counter + attack. I guess there is some BS way for Squall to win where he adjusts his weapon such that hitting himself puts him into a limit range, Izlude 3HKOs and then he rolls a limit first try, but nah.
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3) - Gallows outstalls. To make matters worse, he immunes Water/Ice and has ATT Blocker so Frog's anemic damage gets even worse. Aw yeah.

Super 'Nergal' aielman
Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII) - Both are scrub tier bosses. However, I may have a smidge more Alenia respect than Abadon (...). Reminder that on the 1 GF challenge run, Abadon confused Squall and got Squall to drop an Elixir on him, thereby oneshotting him. At least Alenia doesn't have that level of failure on her list. Oh also, she hits weakness in this fight. YESZ.
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII) - Tfw FF8 self damage nets a win. Starting limit gauges might give Vincent a chance, but I don't allow those.
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Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2017, 02:27:37 AM »
Godlike

Melfice (Grandia II) vs Reicher (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy): I suppose Melfice's evade isn't PERFECT.
Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis) vs Heat (Digital Devil Saga 2)
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI): I trust NEB when he says she can tank stuff.
Black Mage (Bravely Default) vs Beowulf Kadmus (Final Fantasy Tactics)

Heavy

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina (Breath of Fire IV): Escapes a heal lock barely?
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals): 2HKOs with magic.
Umi (Cthulhu Saves the World) vs Mei-ling (SaGa Frontier): Chances of blocking/Boundshot crit OHKO are too much.
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears)

Middle

Maya (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn): She can't get swords?
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics): I guess he'd need an OHKO? Hmm.
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3)

Light

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII): Oh god.
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII)
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story): Leon has to sacrifice something to block silence?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 04:06:44 AM by Pyro »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2017, 02:06:39 AM »
Full votes in a bit, but am I missing something on Hiro vs. Nina?  According to Pyro's stat topic, Nina's PDur when equipping for status immunity is 0.76.  According to the L2 stat topic, Hiro's Triple Sword is 0.73 PCHP.  Elf later notes that arguably, tested enemy defense is high, so Ronfar should be mildly better and Lemina/Leo mildly worse, but Hiro & Jean should be around the same.  Unless Hiro's physical is utterly puny, like worse than Ronfar level, that should be a solid heal-lock.

If Nina fails to equip for status immunity...  and we presume that drives her durability up enough to evade the heal-lock...  it still doesn't look good?  She 5HKOs here off Pyro's numbers (deals ~1.07 PCHP in 4 shots, Hiro has 1.09 PCHP and above average MDef), but goes first.  So Hiro gets 4 attempts at Concussion sword against 50% resistance.  That's around a 69% chance of hitting the ID, which is close, but probably good enough for me.  (And...  it's not clear if this strategy avoids the heal-lock anyway.)  I think Nina needs super BoF4 speed respect to take this one to get that extra turn in.

Nina halves the ID with her default weapon, which should be sufficient here I think, so she can just stick with her best Pdur setup.

Also, I added a vote for Llewelyn vs Leon. Forgot that I allow VP archers Silence and that SO 2 doesn't have a way to block that (it has an all-status resister, but Silence falls into a different category).
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 02:36:28 AM »
Daily reminder that VP silence is shit and using it on Leon should give him access to a physical attack which is MT and outdamages his spells in order to be a fair reflection. (Not 100% serious. But kinda? That status is such trash.)

I don't think halving ID is enough? It's gonna drop from turn 2 to turn 4. I don't think Nina 4HKOs or doubles here. Unless BoF4 wisdom affects physical status?

Also I'm getting increasingly convinced that Terra probably beats Empyrea. She survives Double Grab Hold with an Oath Veil (even with some monkeying to raise the def average to account for this; she almost survives with her default setup) and Empyrea's HP isn't very good; even halved Fire 3 will hurt (it still does above average damage). Empyrea absolutely must double physical each turn since only going for one means she may miss and thus Terra gets a shot at Fire 3, and every double physical drops Terra to low HP where Drain is nearly full, which is to say pretty decent damage itself. Empyrea doesn't have good HP so I'm pretty skeptical that she can double in time; her in-game durability comes entirely from defence and elemental resistance, which are respectively irrelevant and already accounted for here (she does not have magic defence).

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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2017, 03:38:07 AM »
I watched a YouTube video of someone taking 24 minutes to kill Empyrea at double speed.  I never saw double grab hold in it, so it's probably not legal.  (For all that this barely matters usually, grab hold + physical is almost as good, but Terra is apparently even tankier than I thought...?)  Also, while classic DQs certainly called it an icy wave or wave of ice or whatever, DQ8 actually just called it disruptive waves of energy.  Look at OK giving all of us false memories.

Fair enough that BoF4 Wisdom is apparently status resistance too, Pyro lists it in his topic.  That stuffs the Concussion Sword backup plan pretty well.  Guess we really need to know how good a Hiro physical is after all.


Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)
Black Mage (Bravely Default) vs Beowulf Kadmus (Final Fantasy Tactics)
If Beo survives' BM's burst, he gets a bunch of free turns, so I don't think he needs to worry about having his status be turn 1 on BM...  although I guess BM can slow roll by blocking Petrify and opening 1 Dark before going all-in?  That might have issues with Drain though.  I dunno.  I'd actually normally be up for hyping Aegis Shield evade if Beo only needs to go half-and-half but I'm willing to buy FFT Dark Holy analogies today I guess.

Heavy

Hiro (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue) vs Nina (Breath of Fire IV)
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Even if there's focusing hype, that probably gets rid of avoids-counters hype, and I'd certainly see a Sacred Twin weakness hit going on here, since Amon is bait to the Dual Blade in-game.
Cresselia (Pokémon) vs Elhaym van Houten (Xenogears)
You could even argue that most XG characters are Fighting type, although Elly is arguably another Psychic type.

Middle

Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
I'd think that giving CC characters storebought elements would hurt Karsh more than it helps, but hrmm.  Never figured out my preferred interp, since a harsher one leaves CC characters really bad if the fight stalls out (include elements no recharge, so Karsh's damage jumps off a cliff after he shoots off his 3 techs...  which seems unfair, but includign storebought elements makes his damage relatively worse from mages looking good in the averages now).  I guess I'll follow the crowd, but seems a close one.
Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Izlude Tingel (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Frog (Chrono Trigger) vs Gallows Carradine (Wild ARMs 3)

Light

Alenia (Suikoden V) vs Abadon (Final Fantasy VIII)
Apparently, if you totally ignore defense, or are at a different level than Ciato was, Abadon's damage looks vaguely less sad?  Like, 500 w/ blind or 750.  OTOH I have no qualms about holding a Disc 3 boss against 100 Full-Lifes junctioned to HP, so get rekt.  (Also packs Blind!  ... which is practically a liability in FF8 due to how Crisis and Limits work!)
https://youtu.be/W7C9Kp3UESs?t=9m48s
Irvine Kinneas (Final Fantasy VIII) vs Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII)
Half limit gague doesn't actually help Vincent here, Irvine limit should still be extremely fatal, or even one chip physical + limit.
Hien (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs Tia (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Llewelyn (Valkyrie Profile) vs Leon D.S. Gehste (Star Ocean: The Second Story)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 03:45:12 AM by SnowFire »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2017, 03:50:23 AM »
Guess we really need to know how good a Hiro physical is after all.

1.5x Ronfar's? They have the same attack in the topic, Ronfar has 2 swings and Hiro has 3. I'm assuming that each swing adds equal damage though.
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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2017, 03:58:41 AM »
Yup, Random had much the same argument.  Seems like Poe Sword can heal-lock - but then Hiro has MP problems.

Transcript:

[22:40] <SnowFire> Also, huh, if Hiro's physical is 1.5x Ronfar, I think that makes it so that Hiro does heal-lock Pyro's claimed Nina durability?  That's even ignoring potential Elf basic physical hype.
[22:41] <SnowFire> Comes out to 0.85 PCHP if I do the math right, Pyro says she's 84% durable vs. Melee.
[22:41] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> nope
[22:41] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> unless i looked at the wrong killpoint
[22:42] <SnowFire> I could have too...  I was using (139*1.5 + 1236) / 680 * 2.5
[22:42] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> Well you doubled Ronfar's physical is the problem
[22:42] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> it's 78 over two hits, not two hits of 78
[22:43] <+Tera_Mettaur> so 39 a hit is what Random is saying
[22:43] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> ...or you took Shining Litany's damage instead
[22:43] <SnowFire> Yeah, that's it.
[22:44] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> Regardless it should be closer to 0.795 PCHP
[22:44] <SnowFire> I assumed that the damage average had Ronfar's physical, nto Shining Litany.
[22:44] <SnowFire> Well then.
[22:46] <SnowFire> Moving on to more important items.  OK misled us when he called Empyrea's move "Waves of Ice".  The older DQs use that, but teh PS2 YT video just said "disruptive wave of energy!"  Fraud!  Sad.
[22:46] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> Oh I guess Poe Sword would be the hype there?
[22:47] <SnowFire> if Poe Sword is REALLY MANA EFFICIENT maybe.
[22:47] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> it's something like 4 MP IIRC
[22:49] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> I had unconsciously been dismissing it but looking at what we know that works
[22:50] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> since it doesn't even need to be twice as good as the physical chain to enforce
[22:50] <SnowFire> Sounds like it's Nina mana-efficiency time!  She can apparently get cheaper healign ona  staff - but in exchange for dropping some Death resistance, maybe bringing Concussion Sword hype back, unless Elecman's antihype of the move comes roaring back.
[22:51] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> but then Heal costs 5 AP which is like way better than what Poe Sword can manage for MP efficiency
[22:51] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> So, probably not
[22:51] <SnowFire> Although eh, it seems like even her base heal should be good enough for Poe Sword.  5 AP, so that's 55 heals, less 5x Typhoons, so 43 heals or so?
[22:52] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> Well
[22:52] <SnowFire> Hiro has 171 MP, and he does need a closing Triple Sword, so that means 141 MP...  yeah, this is actually pretty close.
[22:52] <SnowFire> Although if Nina gets even very occasional doubles where she can poke, that saves her a Typhoon.
[22:53] <SnowFire> For that matter, 4x Typhoon + physical probably does the job.
[22:53] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> If Poe Sword is 4 MP, then he has 42 Poe Swords
[22:54] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> going over 35 puts Triple Sword out of reach too
[22:54] <SnowFire> Pow Sword is 6 MP according to GameFAQs, so RIP though.
[22:54] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> time to look up what it ac--
[22:54] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> RIP
[22:54] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> RIP
[22:55] <%Pyro> Wouldn't Hiro's basic physical heal lock with Triple Sword?
[22:55] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> Yeah that's enough for Nina to escape the hear lock
[22:55] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> Again, no
[22:56] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> Not unless it actually deals closer to 200
[22:56] <%Pyro> Surely his basic physical breaks that much.
[22:56] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> uh no
[22:56] <%Pyro> He has a few hits on it?
[22:56] <+RandomKesaranPasaran> it does 117

Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2017, 07:58:10 AM »
You know, when I start thinking about this fight, I suddenly have fewer problems with the concept of defending (or at least see the merit in a limited use. If someone is relying on an MP using move to need to heal lock you and you are faster and can win when defending concepts are added to the mix, it strikes me as very reasonable to see defending as a credible option. This is probably because the concept of heal-locking is a basically only DL relevant (as opposed to in game relevant), so giving it some balance makes a lot of sense to me. Not that I remember if BoF 4 Defend was good (or if it existed).

BoF 3 had that integrated Wisdom effect, which I believe included ID as well.
...into the nightfall.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2017, 01:48:18 PM »
BoF4 Defend is pretty good, 50% evasion along with the usual damage reduction and also allows you to learn enemy abilities.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

OblivionKnight

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2017, 04:44:43 PM »
Dangerous for Hiro, since Nina could learn Triple Sword that way, or Concussion Sword.  Would help her next week against Ephraim (if he wins...).

Also...didn't the attack sequence in EBO (like in TSS) deal more damage relatively than in EBC?  The heal lock with his physical may actually be better there, relatively.  In EBC, the attack sequences are pretty terrible relative to the high damage skills like Triple Sword, but those don't exist in EBO, so his heal-lock might actually be doable?  Not sure without exact information. 


Also, while classic DQs certainly called it an icy wave or wave of ice or whatever, DQ8 actually just called it disruptive waves of energy.  Look at OK giving all of us false memories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GewBhGyNwDE (Time: 1:44)

The DS remake changed it to disruptive waves of energy.  It's "Empyrea is enveloped in a wave of ice" in the original PS2 version (and I think "everything is enveloped..." in a couple other instances). 

Stop spreading fake news, man  :).


Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Even if there's focusing hype, that probably gets rid of avoids-counters hype, and I'd certainly see a Sacred Twin weakness hit going on here, since Amon is bait to the Dual Blade in-game.

I don't agree with avoiding counters from magic (since, as far as I know, all magic in FE8 is ranged, either 1-2 or 3-10 or whatever).  Not sure how focusing invalidates avoiding counters, personally but I think you can argue them decently well enough, so whatever.  I don't think you should assign a Sacred Twin weakness, though - Dual Blade is holy/light elemental in-game, which the Snistrals are weak to.  Zap, for instance, hits a weakness on him, as do IPs like Holy Energy.  Sacred Twins specifically hit weaknesses on monsters - light magic doesn't deal bonus damage to them, exception being Bishops, but that's a class skill, Slayer, for killing monsters, not based on the magic itself (just that Bishops can only use light magic and staves).  So, the question is would you consider Amon a monster.  By the technical definition, I suppose every non-PC in Lufia 2 is a "monster", but that I think that's getting too technical and missing the spirit of the plot behind the weakness-hitting of the Sacred Twins.  If you want to say "evil bad dude = monster" and extend the weakness hitting that way, I suppose you can...but Lyon and Riev don't get hit by Sacred Twin weaknesses, and they are clearly A) Evil (Riev) or B) Possessed by evil (Lyon), so I don't see that.  The Sinistrals are, plot-wise, Gods that take giant human forms (or, in the Lufia 2 DS remake Amon's case, oysters), which is very different than a "monster". 


Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Fiona (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
I'd think that giving CC characters storebought elements would hurt Karsh more than it helps, but hrmm.  Never figured out my preferred interp, since a harsher one leaves CC characters really bad if the fight stalls out (include elements no recharge, so Karsh's damage jumps off a cliff after he shoots off his 3 techs...  which seems unfair, but includign storebought elements makes his damage relatively worse from mages looking good in the averages now).  I guess I'll follow the crowd, but seems a close one.

I guess it boils down to the status from blue elements - Flu drops stamina (not sure how you want to interpret that), and he can evade boost (no data on the effect of it, but it's there), as well as heal.  The big thing is the freeze status, which can end it there. 


[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Random Consonant

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2017, 05:46:46 PM »
Quote
Quote
Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Amon (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Even if there's focusing hype, that probably gets rid of avoids-counters hype, and I'd certainly see a Sacred Twin weakness hit going on here, since Amon is bait to the Dual Blade in-game.
I don't agree with avoiding counters from magic (since, as far as I know, all magic in FE8 is ranged, either 1-2 or 3-10 or whatever).  Not sure how focusing invalidates avoiding counters, personally but I think you can argue them decently well enough, so whatever.  I don't think you should assign a Sacred Twin weakness, though - Dual Blade is holy/light elemental in-game, which the Snistrals are weak to.  Zap, for instance, hits a weakness on him, as do IPs like Holy Energy.  Sacred Twins specifically hit weaknesses on monsters - light magic doesn't deal bonus damage to them, exception being Bishops, but that's a class skill, Slayer, for killing monsters, not based on the magic itself (just that Bishops can only use light magic and staves).  So, the question is would you consider Amon a monster.  By the technical definition, I suppose every non-PC in Lufia 2 is a "monster", but that I think that's getting too technical and missing the spirit of the plot behind the weakness-hitting of the Sacred Twins.  If you want to say "evil bad dude = monster" and extend the weakness hitting that way, I suppose you can...but Lyon and Riev don't get hit by Sacred Twin weaknesses, and they are clearly A) Evil (Riev) or B) Possessed by evil (Lyon), so I don't see that.  The Sinistrals are, plot-wise, Gods that take giant human forms (or, in the Lufia 2 DS remake Amon's case, oysters), which is very different than a "monster".

While I'm okay with FE8 sacred twin weapons hitting weakness on Amon, I should point out that 1) Amon is faster, and 2) sacred twin effectiveness against monsters is only 2x Might instead of FE8's usual 3x so Siegmund shouldn't be OHKOing anyways.  Or even a good enough 2HKO for javelins to matter (obviously lol to Eph countering magic with range 1 only weapons), 10k HP is still respectible on paper, so unless you want to argue for double-crediting weaknesses...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 05:55:24 PM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2017, 05:59:12 PM »
Random/OK on Amon: Yeah, I knew about Amon being faster, shoulda clarified - I was assuming Javelin counter -> horrible Sacred Twin OHKO.  Fair enough point that it's only 2x power, for all that in-game 2x power is still HORRIBLE GRISLY OVERKILL to anyone vulnerable not named Forty.  If I'm down for focusing hype, though, I'm also inclined to respect-check Amon HARD, especially since he grants the entire team 100 IP, so you have no excuse not to be using your best damage skills, Dual React, etc.  From my stat topic...  Siegmund at 49 damage + Javelin at 16 damage = 65 damage vs. a ~48 silvers killpoint.  I'll buy that as enough.

Fake news on waves of ice: You sure?  The YouTube video I looked up had a date from like 2011 or something...  were there two different PS2 editions of the game or something?  Then again, don't get me wrong, I recall it being wave of ice too, but I was assuming you were mindhacking us for fun.  Dang.  Who even knows what's real anymore.

Chrono Cross elements: Right, right, OK interps.  I was assuming strict damage-only elements of the character's element, so Karsh gets the likes of (quickly Googling CC elements)...  uh...   Bushwhacker or AeroSaucer, but not HealPlus, and definitely hell no to Flu.

Dhyer: To be clear, Random & I are kneejerking Nina without even any need for Defend hype.  Defend hype isn't perfect though, since if we assume Hiro CAN heal-lock with physical... I'd definitely enforce TB "both parties enter their commands blind" rules, and if Nina uses Defend while Hiro uses Concussion Sword (as a fake-out predict the Defend call), she might still run into trouble.  Hiro can throw in a random mix of physicals & Concussion Swords to keep Nina off her guard and unable to spam Defend too heavily.

Random Consonant

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2017, 06:54:52 PM »
Quote
Random/OK on Amon: Yeah, I knew about Amon being faster, shoulda clarified - I was assuming Javelin counter -> horrible Sacred Twin OHKO.  Fair enough point that it's only 2x power, for all that in-game 2x power is still HORRIBLE GRISLY OVERKILL to anyone vulnerable not named Forty.  If I'm down for focusing hype, though, I'm also inclined to respect-check Amon HARD, especially since he grants the entire team 100 IP, so you have no excuse not to be using your best damage skills, Dual React, etc.  From my stat topic...  Siegmund at 49 damage + Javelin at 16 damage = 65 damage vs. a ~48 silvers killpoint.  I'll buy that as enough.

Yeah no, IPs are good but they're not raise damage average to ~800 good (you'd need basically be able to use the 3x mult IPs near-constantly for that instead of every other turn which is what's claimed and fits my own memory, and not everyone even has those on the kind of weapons you'd need for those kinds of numbers), which is what you'd need there if you don't doublecredit the incredibly gross holy weakness for Eph to 2HKO.

To be clear I disrespect Amon's HP plenty too, just "disrespect" here means going from a completely naive-no IP 3x PCHPish or whatever to something like 1.4x, which is a bit too high for Eph.  Yeah it's annoying since he's such an utterly worthless boss ingame, but I've made my peace with it.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 08:55:05 PM by Random Consonant »

superaielman

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Re: RPGDL 2017 Season 1, Week 1
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2017, 11:36:01 AM »
Re Melfice vs Reicher: I might vote for Melfice if not for break. As soon as that hits, Melfice is *dead*. Allowing all the parts to act makes that worse- while the sword's immune to everything Reicher does, the regenerate is weak to physicals and well, that could get ugly fast.

And Amon is lucky that all the gravity attacks outside of the A/C are such hot garbage. The gravity weakness in the DL is a pretty bad punishment, see him getting shithoused by Beowulf etc.
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