Author Topic: Musing on FF5 job balance  (Read 8330 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2016, 02:48:46 PM »
Exdeath is much harder to do this to in the GBA version of the game (in SNES/PSX, you can mix Blessed Kiss, but they closed that loophole), and anyway this was inspired by Fiesta where the end goal is a shot of Neo Exdeath disintegrating, so I probably won't be counting that.

Against Archeoaevis I can see going either way but to some extent it's yeah, what Zenny/Grefter said. While I'm all for ignoring obvious bugs which can be ignored (Vanish/Doom) it's harder to ignore things which inevitably affect gameplay (FF6 MBlock). This particular one falls somewhat in the middle. It is a logical consequence of a very consistent convention (counters do not trigger counters), just not ones the developers may have considered, kinda like how spamming the "switch turn" button in FF8 gives you a re-roll for a limit.

EDIT: If you're curious, though, Monk playing "fair" is probably around Knight-level, maybe a bit lower? They have less damage, but Focus lets them dodge form 2 at least... for all that with their high HP, the other forms' special attacks aren't that different.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 03:18:59 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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SnowFire

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2016, 06:34:04 PM »
Makkotah: FF6 Mevade is cooked into the game a lot more deeply.  This feels closer to Vanish/Doom to me; regardless of how legal you see it or not, it makes boss analysis less interesting if taken into account.  All WoR bosses that you can Vanish / Doom instantly become trash.  Sure, fine, but then there's a not a lot to say other than "use the cheesy trick."

Elf: Fair enough, it certainly is borderline.  Perhaps HP leak is a better example: the ability to inflict this is generally *trash* if you're playing normally, but it can screw up some counter scripts, and it's an instant win with wait mode if you are incredibly lame and wait for 20 minutes.  A ranking that cooked in assuming you would do this whenever possible inflates the value of HP leak vs. "normal" play.  At least Monk's Counter deserves some hype in vanilla play, though.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2016, 10:29:44 PM »
I was under the impression you needed to use Quick to claim the instant win with Sap/HP Leak? If you can do it just by opening the menu in Wait mode that's pretty silly. Regardless, yeah, I won't be considering either strategy.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2016, 07:03:45 AM »
The last three bosses of World 1 can be fought in any order. There are no randoms between them and nothing gained from any of them that can be used against each other, except the summon spell Titan, so I'll assume Titan is fought first for the purpose of ranking Summoner (only place it matters). You have only three PCs for these fights.

Titan

Titan may have only 2500 HP, which is sad at this point, but he can give you a really bad time. Every even-numbered turn he has a 1/3 chance to use Earth Shaker, which is strong MT damage: 2HKO everyone at least, OHKO some lower-HP jobs depending on level. Okay, okay, you kill him before that, sure... except that he also uses it as a death counter. Ouch! It's not easy to block or reduce earth magic attacks at this point, though there are ways...


Let's take a look at the new kids first! Samurai has Zeninage. For just 1000 gil or so (varies by level), they win instantly if they're level 17+. They can try to win without spending this but it relies on some luck with critical hits so nah. Dragoon, meanwhile, is also a bit better than you might think, because Jump can be used to dodge the even-numbered turns AND even the death counter (and it's ITE!). In fact Dragoon is always a bit inflated if you consider the entire team to have Jump, hmm.

Chemist doesn't have Mix yet so they're pretty mediocre. Their offence sucks, they'd need 5-6 rounds if they all attack and that won't be happening, so they need to turtle. They have Drink but... drink's weird right now, since the items aren't storebought, but dropped, mostly from non-repeatable encounters. To sum up: they have around 7 Goliath Tonics (double HP) from Gigases in the Karnak escape. They have an Iron Draft from Byblos and a Hero Cocktail from Archeoaevis. And finally, they have 0-8 Iron Drafts and 0-8 Speed Shakes from the cannons guarding the Ronka Ruins, average of 4 each. Speed Shakes are what they really want. With three of those, they can turtle through this fight (preferably with Goliath Tonics too). Four Heal Staff hits and a few potions will let them recover from an Earth Shaker every two rounds, and they probably won't need that. On the other hand, without Speed Shakes they can't really do well and risk being overwhelmed. They really want Speed Shakes for both this fight and at least one other before they're storebought, so it's hairy. At worst, they can always grind up 45 ABP for Mix but that would put them far down the list if they do have to retreat to that. But honestly, I think just hasting the Heal Staff user is enough? It puts them in a bit behind every time he uses Earth Shaker but they should slowly gain ground otherwise. Two should ensure it. So... I think this gets a kinda okay score maybe.

Dancer, meanwhile, has access to the more underhanded way to beat Titan, and they will absolutely have to do it because their HP is wretched. This is to head to North Mountain and confuse a Gaelicat (they're extremely common, so no worries there) and have it cast Float on them. Takes some time for the cat to hit everyone (not all jobs need to hit everyone, Dancer will probably want to) but once they have it, they can walk into the Titan fight immune to his tricks unless they drop from his physicals. Hopefully with Jitterbug's draining and the back row, that won't be an issue, and potions can recover from the rest if HP starts to drop.

Knight can certainly two-round, though it's a bit of luck as to whether they beat out Titan's second turn (random variance on speed order favours Knight but it's close, and Titan's 10% evade could also make a mess of things). As long as they do, they win. If they don't and he uses Earth Shaker, they lose (or burn some Elixirs). Pretty good, but could be better. Monk sets Focus, three uses of that and Titan is dead unless he gets some luck with dodges... doesn't need an unreasonable amount either, depends a bit on level and Monks' crit rate, I'm not calcing that. But overall this is safer than Knight I think, since a counter could push things over the top, and that's 50%.

Thief... by Thief standards this could be worse! At Level 19 they'll avoid a OHKO and can just spam Hi-Potions after an Earth Shaker, they'll probably only need to use about 8 to 10 on average! And hey this takes less time than grinding 45 ABP, compared to Chemist (though likely more than a Gaelicat expedition), so that's something.. but having both a level requirement and a stealing requirement means they're probably last. Ninja, meanwhile can fire off scrolls and win before turn 2. The bigger issue is needing to be Level 19 to survive Earth Shaker reliably. I'd generally say that's probable but not a given, and if they aren't they pretty much just have to level up. Where you score Ninja definitely depends a bit on how you feel about levels, here.

Sticking with lower-HP fighters, Ranger. Ranger would like to be Level 20 to be safe (19 is YOLO, someone will usually survive). They're fast and 3-round at base, but can use Nightingale if necessary, so it's really just that HP check. Geomancer's kinda in this boat too, though a bit better off. With robes they have more MDef and can afford to be a bit lower (Level 18 is likely safe), and they're... probably fast enough to outspeed and will on average two-round, though again it's not a sure thing. Similar to Knight, the slightly better speed makes me favour them though you could hold the level requirement against them.

Berserkers probably 2-3 round depending on accuracy. If he uses Earth Shaker on his second turn they lose. If not they... probably win unless they have bad luck hitting which is always possible. How you want to weigh a ~40% chance of losing against the grinding some other jobs need to do is hard to say. I guess it beats Thief. Mystic Knight does less damage but is faster, they might kill in 3 rounds but probably 4, but hey it still lets them beat the second Earth Shaker. It's pretty similar to Berserker except they can use Elixirs if they really want.

Okay, mage time. Most of the mages have some underhanded trick here. First of all, Red Mage and White Mage can repeat the Dancer strategy of confusing a Gaelicat. Out of the way for sure, but they're better at it because their confuse is more reliable and hey they have much better healing, too. Red Mage can survive without doing this at Level 20-21 if they stay healed, although they'll want to break rods to kill him before the turn-2 Earth Shaker since they don't want to try recovering from that. White Mage definitely wants to use Float, since while they can heal after Earth Shakers, they risk taxing their resources too much, while float is very safe. Both even have Protect which is nice!

Summoner and Time Mage have it easier. Titan can be stopped and paralysed (Remora, a L1 summon), and this prevents him from using his death counter if he's killed right after. Status him, break rods, collect victory. His low level and MEvade makes these moves 100%. If they want to save money, Summoners can get by with two Remoras and four Ramuhs, most likely. TM can dig in with Haste/Slow and get 8 turns between potential Earth Shakers, but they'll need to survive one if they go this route, or pull off a deft stop-lock. So eh probably should break rods instead, more costly than Samurai.

Blue Mage and Black Mage aren't so lucky in terms of having tricks. Sure, they can win fast with rod breaks or 1000 Needles (Black Mage can try to two-round with spells, but it's a risky race for turn 2). But neither can do anything about Earth Shaker, really. Black Mage will want to be Level 19, Blue Mage Level 18.

BOTH of Bard's status tricks are relevant here: Stop to grind Titan to a halt and Confuse to gain float. Hooray! This is honestly one of their best fights despite being OHKOed by Earth Shaker. They fit in with the Red/Time tier of generally tearing this fight apart but needing some effort (rods, Gaelicats, timing Stop properly) to do so, but they have multiple advantages.

Beastmaster can control Gaelicats (faster than confusing them) and then use paralysis from whips, which is only 50% but spamming it gets the job done. Or they can throw heavy damage at the boss. I dunno, they're pretty good. Needing to do some prep (either catch or control) is their only drawback, since whips aren't reliable enough to win alone.

1. Summoner
2. Samurai
3. Dragoon
4. Time Mage
5. Beastmaster
6. Bard
7. Red Mage
8. Blue Mage
9. Ninja
10. Black Mage
11. Monk
12. White Mage
13. Ranger
14. Geomancer
15. Knight
16. Dancer
17. Chemist
18. Mystic Knight
19. Berserker
20. Thief

Tough, tough group to rank. It's hard to weigh the "needs to be Level X" against "needs some luck hitting through evade / not seeing Earth Shaker" and against "needs to take a trip to North Mountain or do other prep". This list looks very different depending on what levels one assumes as normal. A lower-level playstyle would hurt jobs which have an absolute level requirement (Ninja, Black Mage, Ranger, etc.) and a higher-level one helps them relatively. Oh well, let's focus on what's important: Bard in the upper half!

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Grefter

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2016, 09:52:36 AM »
You undersell this elf.  Bard is just shy of top 25%!  This is some of the best Team Tallychu can hope for innit?

Also WM above Chemist, Knight and Mystic Knight all!  What a crazy time to be.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 09:55:07 AM by Grefter »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2016, 02:54:46 PM »
Actually I don't want to promise anything now but I think this might be the start of a run of three bosses in a row where Bard is roughly this high!

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2016, 07:35:34 AM »
Manticore

Manticore is rather like Titan: same evade/def and (lack of) MEvade, crappy HP, and a lot of multitarget damage. While nothing hits as hard as Earth Shaker, his elements can't be nulled, and he uses them more often: he alternates between a 1/3 chance and a 100% chance of using MT attacks which are over half as strong as Earth Shaker, so he's actually even better at wearing you down over time. No death counter, though. And still has some status holes.


Okay there's one other big problem with Manticore: he's fairly speedy. So you need to pump out damage fast. What's fast enough? Why, rod breaks of course! Three of them and he's dead, so for 2250 gil any rod-user claims a win here. Of course, some can do better. Manticore is vulnerable to Stop (and isn't Heavy, so it lasts a while), so Time Mage can lock him down forever with that while they poke him to death if they want to save money. If he somehow lucks out and sees a turn, Heal Staff/Haste/Slow make it easy to recover. Summoner has Titan which 5HKOs, so if Manticore foolishly opens with a weak physical (2/3 chance) they can just kill him with that, they only need to break out the rods if they get hit with Aqua Breath (and even then they can probably get away with just two). Blue Mage licks their lips and faces a boss with no MEvade or OHKO/status so they can just Vampire to victory. 1000 Needles almost one-rounds to boot. They're worse if they don't have those, and Vampire alone CAN go wrong if they get doubleturned in a long fight, but that's not likely. Only Black Mage has no tricks here; they'll need to spend that cash probably, though again they can cut down on rod breaks if he opens with a physical, one will suffice then.

I lied, Red Mage's rod breaks are weaker and don't quite one-round. But... they don't care. They have Cura, and two of those heal off his damage. So... they don't even need to rod break, they can use Cura x2 + L2 and kill in 7 rounds at worst, probably less. White Mage can do this too, except that their damage is awful (nothing new here) and they're slower, so Manticore will doubleturn them every 10 rounds or so. Two Aqua Breaths and they're toast if they're below Level 20. So... be Level 20 (21 would be safer because of Sap/random variance) I guess. And even then... mmf. It's just a big hit to their MP. Every MT attack means two Curas and one attack, everything else means one Heal staff and two attacks. So every two rounds they use ~24 MP and get in three attacks, and they need 50 rounds to win. So they'll probably need 1-3 elixirs.

Speaking of Time Mage's stop, how about bard? They also have a braindead easy stop lockdown, since theirs is even more accurate! So yeah, Romeo's Ballad + other two bards poking away = collect victory. If they wanted, they could also hide for about 80 turns until Manticore runs out of MP, but thankfully they don't need to!

Onto the fighters. Knight is 3HKOed and can two-round... but only if they all hit (90% accuracy). Otherwise... well, they'll still probably win unless he always uses magic. Overall there's over a 90% chance they'll win this fight. Weigh that against Black Mage needing an average of 1250 gil to get through this... eh, I favour fewer resets. Monk can focus three times then attack three times for an effective two-round as well, and doesn't actually need everything to hit, just most (and criticals can offset misses), so that's a bit better. Berserker will usually need three rounds and this could sink to 4 (which would be very bad). But they also have about a 30% chance per swing to land ID if they have the relevant axe, shich goes a ways towards making up the odds. Obviously needing those is going to push them below Knight/Monk though.

Samurai throws money at their problems. 1000 gil and a few pokes means they win. Going without that money is a bad plan. So they use more money on average than Summoner but less than Black Mage, easy to rank! Ninja also throws money at their problems. Being faster than Manticore is good because they need to two-round... but they barely don't, oops. So.. whatever, if Manticore opens with magic, they throw a Shuriken. Otherwise they can three-round. Average gil spent? 2100 or so.

Dragoons can jump and shit, and dodging the even-numbered turns helps a lot. I think I'm fine with giving them credit for dodging MT attacks since that's a relative advantage even one Dragoon has. Less fine with giving them credit for dodging ST since those get redirected if you don't have a full dragoon team. Anyway dodge the even turns. Jump still takes three rounds to kill (uh really) but it's ITE at least. If they get hit by three turns of magic in a row on odd turns they lose, but the odds of that are very poor, albeit existant enough to drop them below Samurai/Ninja.

Thief is terrible! 2HKOed so Hi-Potion x3 after every spell = 12 hi-potions and 6 attacks every 8 rounds, plus 6 opening/ending attacks, they need about 19 but they might double so call it 18 I guess, so around two dozen hi-potions to get past this guy? Ugh. At Level 21 they barely avoid being 2HKOed by two Aqua Breaths on average, but it still happens if their luck is bad. Maybe get to 22, they'll cut down on the number some. You still suck, thieves.

For Ranger, forest friends to the rescue again! Well hopefully. Two Aqua Beaths in a row kill if they don't get cute birds to the rescue, and at Level 20 there's a 14% chance of that each round. Of course there's only a 33% chance of consecutive MT attacks, so overall it's more like a 5% chance of death every round after the first. They only actually need about four of these healing rounds since they all attack first round and last so overall an ~80% chance of victory.

Mystic Knight outspeeds but needs 5 rounds to kill if everyone hits (though they can afford a couple misses). That's bad because it means Manticore gets two 100% MT attacks and only needs to get lucky on one more. They can also spend a turn on VENOM SWORD and give up a little damage for several turns of poison which is totally a winning trade, but they still probably don't kill in four turns on average, though they have a chance. It'll be dicy but at least they can pull out elixirs if they want. MK may want L4 spells more than the mages do...

Beastmaster can release stuff to kill. In some versions of the game (not GBA) they can stop him with Calm, in GBA he immunes it, and I'm generally assuming GBA so too bad. One Sand Bear lets them win on average (slightly safer than Knight), two lets them win 100%. Whatever you please.

This is another fight Chemist badly wants Haste for, since otherwise I can't see how they can heal fast enough. With two PCs hasted, though, they can smack two PCs wth a Heal Staff to heal from MT and toss in potions to help the other, leaving a little time for offence regardless, if more or less only on turns when he doesn't use MT. So as long as you didn't get unlucky on fighting the mini-bosses who drop them (faced them at least 2/4, 69% chance) you should be able to drag them through this. If you got less, hard to see how you'd survive this without getting Mix, and that's... well, not Thief level grinding at least (and pays off for all this set of bosses). Yeah whatever they can go above Mystic Knight again, 69% > MK's chance of winning this battle.

Geomancer three-rounds with Gaia on average. They can barely tank two Aqua Breaths, so they probably win unless they see three (1/9 chance) or fail to get at least four Stalactites/Wind Slashes (~25% chance * 5/9 of at least one MT = 14%). A bit worse than Ranger.

And finally, Dancer. They bad? They bad. The offence isn't nearly good enough seeing as they're 2HKOed by MT, though the random Jitterbugs will extend their life a bit. This is still a bad strategy. So... grinding time? Yep! If they can get 25 ABP (they can fight the other two bosses first then a few randoms) they learn Flirt, which is a 50% chance of turn cancel. That's... okay not actually that worthwhile, 1/8 chance of a wasted turn for 1.25 bonus attacks per attempt. If a helpful thief got them a Lamia's Tiara rare steal it's 100% and they win. Otherwise... ew. They can still win with YOLO Sword Dance/Jitterbug procs, of course, but the odds look very poor. Especially since Manticore's decent MDef, which doesn't dent other things too badly, hurts Jitterbug's draining quite a lot. And that probably means last place, though I can see arguing thief.

1. Red Mage
2. Bard
3. Time Mage
4. Blue Mage
5. Summoner
6. Samurai
7. Black Mage
8. Ninja
9. Beastmaster
10. Dragoon
11. Monk
12. Knight
13. Ranger
14. Geomancer
15. Chemist
16. Mystic Knight
17. Berserker
18. White Mage
19. Thief
20. Dancer

Safe wins that are effectively free > safe wins that require blue magic > safe wins that cost money > not so safe wins > wins that need grinding

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2016, 05:56:57 AM »
Purabolos (x6)

And to end of the first world, we get a weird one. Defensively, their thing is that if you kill one, it fully revives all its dead allies as a death counter. Offensively, they sit there doing nothing for a while, then on turn 3 they all act, with a 1/3 chance of blowing up for CHP damage, which is a hell of a lot if they aren't badly hurt. Otherwise they use physicals. Then repeat.

So the strategies are essentially this:
1. Kill them with MT. If they all die at once, they can't save each other.
2. Status them out. Almost everything works, and many statuses prevent counters.
3. Let them blow up one at a time, they don't counter if they commit suicide. The problem is that if several blow up at once you might die, so you want to weaken them as much as possible before they act. You can try to sneak in a Phoenix Down between their turns, but it's not reliable. If 3 or more self-destruct for fatal damage (~1/3 chance if they're all healthy), you lose. You can improve the odds by weakening them.


So let's start with Knight. Knight can 2HKO them, but that's... not actually useful. They should instead try to weaken all of them. If they act quickly they should beat them to the punch for third turn, so that's nine attacks. The Ancient Sword-user can hit three of them, the others can gang up preferably with two attacks which don't KO but come close (e.g. one Coral Sword and one Mythril Sword, hopefully you still have those from Archeoaevis). This will make their third round not very scary overall. It COULD go badly if the three higher-HP ones all blow up and it does take some careful damage estimating ahead of time to pull this off, so this isn't an amazing strategy, but it works.

Monk has KICK! Which would be great, except it's row-subject. Still, there are four bombs in the front row, so kicking all of those to death works. The other two can be further weakened by kicks and even if both were to blow up for OHKOs you'd still win.

Thief is obviously bad, what else is new? They can't even adequately weaken TWO bombs before they start blowing up, so they should just settle for killing one, and then hoping they survive, reviving, and finishing from there. On the one hand they can probably do this without grinding Hi-Potions, so that's nice? Regular potions and a few phoenix downs will likely suffice, if they don't die.

Dragoons can jump to avoid the damage, but, as I said earlier, I'm not really inclined to hype them avoiding ST damage. On the other hand, even a single jumping dragoon would avoid getting your entire party wiped by Self-Destruct, so it'd just be a matter of using Phoenix Downs at worst. Anyway, Jump shenanigans aside, they can weaken two of them before they start blowing up, which is less than they'd like. And before anyone asks: no, the bombs will not self-destruct if they have no legal target.

Ninjas are great. Throw scrolls! Three of them, collect victory. 600 gil.

Samurai can also throw MT for a win. But... that's 6000 gil down the toilet, which is a lot for one (not terribly difficult) fight. They can also use physicals. Weaken three bombs to near death (the slowest, Bartz, should use a Main Gauche so he doesn't accidentally critical the third blow and kill them), and just hope to survive the three strong bombs and three weak ones. They probably do but it's not a lock.

Berserker is the worst! Can't decide who to attack. Can't wait and let them kill themselves. Can't unequip their weapons to let them do it, because six full-HP bombs blowing up will be overkill. Can't use Phoenix Downs to recover from the Self-Destruct barrage. Needs to get pretty lucky to win, probably by running the bombs out of MP (each can only revive twice) and a mix of explosions at low-HP that don't hurt them too bad.

Ranger... go read the part about Samurai if they aren't willing to use Zeninage, since Ranger offence is similar. They've got similar durability (less HP and evade, but back row). They have Animals but the type of healing it offers isn't really great in this fight and the random attacks it generates could fuck up everything. So probably slightly below Samurai because Samurai DOES have a nice option if they're swimming in money.

Mystic Knight finally gets to use status on a boss! Sleep Spellblade, then hit each bomb once. Then hit each bomb twice in quick succession (sleep spellblade attacks actually toggle sleep, it's weird). Repeat on the ones in the back row. Then switch to Mute spellblade and kill them all and watch their counters fail. Ha HA! Kinda complicated (though you can be less rigid about the strategy, the important thing is to sleep them all ASAP) but it's clean, so I'll rank them above Knight.

And rounding out the no-750 club is Beastmaster. The release of choice here is a new one, the Stone Golem, but they're annoying to catch (durable mostly). The Earthquake they use on Release is a 3HKO, though, for a win. Though... wait a tick. Unlike almost every other boss, these guys can be CONTROLLED. It's only 40%, but having a bomb blow up on itself (or another controlled bomb) means no counter. Each beastmaster has about a 78% chance to control a bomb before it acts. That's... actually not wonderful, though as long as one Control hits in the first two turns they can use it to blow up a non-controlled bomb. And that at least will usually happen, so usually they can count on at least three under control. This is weirdly similar to Samurai. Even the time spent gathering 6000 gil is similar to the time spent gathering three Stone Golems if they go that route, probably. But I'm inclined to give the edge to Samurai, as thier strategy is a bit more reliable and they're more durable.

Mages have plenty of good MT of course. None better than Summoner, who 2HKO them with Titan. It's cute how they use Cura as a counter but it restores such a paltry amount, so who cares. It doesn't even stop Ifrit spam. Maybe Ifrit spam without Flame Rods. Who cares. Black Mage and Red Mage can do something similar with MT -ara spells (3 rounds for RM, 2 for BM, both are good enough). They can also use Sleep! But it's not really necessary. Blue Mage uses Aqua Breath, which 3HKOs. You can't even really hype them not having this, they literally just fought Manticore who probably used it, and if somehow he didn't they can go kill a Dhorme Chimera who is by now really easy. Honestly I'm not sure how to tier this, they're all up there as really good, even better than Monk. Red Mage could be in trouble if they're slow at entering commands and both them and Black Mage have a slim chance that due to random variance they might not all die at once, I can't really tiebreak the other two, they rule.

Time Mage can break three rods to one round. Otherwise they can try to lock them down with Stop and disrupt their turns with Slow, but their damage output is poor and they can't really stop them all, so they'll likely end up having to use Phoenix Downs... at which point breaking rods is cheaper anyway. Three of them, collect win.

White Mage... confuse is sadly one of the few statuses they immune, so all they can really do is hope they don't blow up at the same time and overwhelm them. If they survive, at least they save money by using Raise instead of Phoenix Downs? That's something. So they have a lower chance to survive than thieves, but use less money. Ehhh survival is the most important, thief is good at producing money at least.

Chemist continues to underwhelm, this will change eventually I promise. This is an excellent moment to use some of their Goliath Tonics, which will raise their HP to "survive a self-destruct after hitting a bomb twice", so use those, weaken three bombs a bit. This is overall a bit worse than Ranger because they're slower and even "slightly weakened bombs" do hit really hard, and the HP effect goes away if they die.

Geomancer has a pretty good way to weaken bombs with Gaia. One nice perk is that it will almost invariably blind all of them, so only Self-Destruct becomes a threat, and otherwise they'll get some random ST attacks. They do have to watch out a bit for killing off the bombs by accident while they do this, one is fine but once a second is near death (or if they get a rare Branch Spear at Level 21+) then they may need to switch to physicals. Still, high chances that most of the bombs are quite weak.

Dancer is terrible here, again confuse is blocked. Flirt, if they even have it, isn't worth it. Their offence is spiky and unreliable but overall is kinda okay, they just need to watch out for Sword Dance randomly killing a second bomb. Chances are they'll be able to weaken two of them, so they're similar to Dragoon but less reliable at it.

And lastly, Bard! MT STOP AGAINST NON-HEAVY TARGETS HOLY CRAP, Bard is secretly the best. It'll be 95+% accurate and lasts three turns, so it's almost impossible for a bomb to get a turn, ever. (Even at Level 18, it's about 1/1300 that any bomb gets ONE turn, with just one bard devoted to singing while the other two attack. So... they're tied for first too! Nice.

1. Bard, Blue Mage, Summoner (tie, treated as #2)
4. Black Mage
5. Red Mage
6. Monk
7. Ninja
8. Mystic Knight
9. Time Mage
10. Geomancer
11. Knight
12. Samurai
13. Beastmaster
14. Ranger
15. Chemist
16. Dragoon
17. Dancer
18. Thief
19. White Mage
20. Berserker

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Fenrir

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2016, 11:26:46 AM »
Not praising Dragoons for avoiding ST damage with 4x jump sounds like not blaming white mage/bard for having no damage if you pick four of them because they were meant to compliment other classes?

 It seems you're willing to blame a class for being worse in a SCC but not reward a class for being better in a SCC which seems inconsistent. I don't get it.

(It wouldn't help here though)

In any case, praise bards

jsh357

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2016, 02:43:40 PM »
You should actually bump Berserker up some. The thing is, for Berserkers to even get past Sandworm and Sol Cannon without luck of the gods, they would have to be pretty high leveled by now. As such, they should have enough HP to tank plenty of Explosions.

I also disagree with your logic on Chemists in general at this point. If you are playing a Chemist SCC, you are grinding for Turtle Shells immediately, and you are learning Mix in the process. If you don't get the Shells now, they don't become available again until you have the Submarine in World 2. Turtle Shells are super important both for buffing and for Drain Kiss. Dark Matter is another story; you can pass on it and be fine throughout World 2.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 02:47:40 PM by jsh357 »

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2016, 03:36:59 PM »
Eh, disagree on berserkers.  If the only way they can get past two fights is to power level so absurdly that they can still feel it, then that shouldn't be reflected in only one fight.  It especially should not be a reason to reward them in later fights.  Honestly, treating a baseline level for all jobs and docking jobs for needing to be notably above it sounds like the better way to go.

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2016, 04:08:11 PM »
Excal already said my thoughts perfectly.

Also, keep in mind, this is not intended as a SCC analysis, it is a job analysis and I'm just using SCC as a lens through which to do it. It's inspired by fiestas if anything, and I've taken the viewpoint that broadly speaking, what works on the SCC works on the fiesta (at least in part). Advantages broadly translate. The "use 4x Jump to avoid ST attacks" is the first one that completely does not work, so I'm not inclined to hype it myself. Obviously I can see disagreeing so you can move Dragoon up periodically if you feel like it. However, this seemed like an easy fix to make.

I agree that fixing Bard/WM offence is also desirable and I will talk about it at length if I do any final ranking, since it's a relatively easy thing to do. But unlike "I'll just ignore this one strategy" it's far harder to reflect in this analysis moment-to-moment, partly because how much you can improve their offence is highly dependent on what other jobs you draw.

jsh: Grinding is bad. One of the most basic assumptions I make with these lists is that if you have to grind, you're worse than jobs which don't. I acknowledged in the very first post about them that grinding for Mix ASAP is an option if you draw Chemist. However, that's a big negative that the jobs above them don't have to do! So they're going to be lower down until they reach the point where they'd have it naturally. This seems rather inarguable, actually? If you disagree, how far would you move Chemist above on any of the three lists so far and why?

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jsh357

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2016, 06:24:09 PM »
I don't see how ignoring the fact that Berserker pretty much has to be overleveled by now makes any sense. If we're knocking Berserker for the Sand Worm fight being nigh impossible, that means we're playing an SCC (otherwise you can just kill the Berserker), which means the level gain realistically must have happened.

I agree that grinding sucks, and for nearly any other class I never bother, but near the library is actually one of the best places to do it for Chemist throughout the entire game, and you aren't taking proper advantage of the class without getting some supplies, so it's unrealistic to skip doing this. Turtle Shells + Elixirs (from Zu) doesn't have a rival until the grass near Mau with the same drops, but you get more out of Turtle Shells early in the game. It's true this makes Chemist an outlier out of the cast, but based on the prior Berserker/Sandworm/leveling situation, Berserker is also an outlier that is being considered.

If Chemist has Mix immediately upon beating Archeoavis (grinding for enough Shells to get through World 2 minimum) they should 1-2HKO Titan and Manticore with no risk of death. That would make me put them at the top of both of those lists. Not necessarily #1, but up there. Purablos isn't different, really. If you go up against Gilgamesh II without mix, you are going to have a really bad time. It's totally worth stocking up on Shells and getting Mix for that battle alone.

On that note, with Samurai I would absolutely just use Zeninage against Purablos. The only problem with spending money there is potentially getting past Gilgamesh if you run out of money, but aside from him it isn't important starting World 2 in my experience. (You're stuck with Ashura until Surgate, IIRC) They can easily skip Gold equipment and just buy some Holy Water and Hi Potions. You probably were able to hoard money until this point in the game too, especially with the early Healing Staff/Ashura/Geo Bell carrying you through the early game. Just my 2 cents on this.

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2016, 06:40:56 PM »
I don't see how ignoring the fact that Berserker pretty much has to be overleveled by now makes any sense. If we're knocking Berserker for the Sand Worm fight being nigh impossible, that means we're playing an SCC (otherwise you can just kill the Berserker), which means the level gain realistically must have happened.

Sure, on a fiesta you just kill the Berserker against Sandworm. Which is pretty much the most unhelpful a job can possibly be. They're last place there, we agree and move on. The disagreement comes thereafter.

What you're saying is that you think I should score them more highly for jobs after that because they're overlevelled in a SCC setting? But that's ridiculous. Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say that, at Level 99, Berserkers become controllable. Let's also say that Sandworm's Holes gained an additional counter, that whenever you hit one with a physical it fully heals the Sandworm. At this point the only way for Berserker to get past Sandworm would be to level to 99, but once they did, they would entirely curbstomp the rest of the game, being a controllable, powerful Level 99 fighter who can actually use phoenix downs etc. #1 or close to it in every fight from here on. Now, if we were to take the "average" score of Berserker in all fights this way the suggestion would be they are a strong job for an SCC/fiesta, when the opposite is true! So you can see why you can't treat a grinding requirement for one boss as a license to ignore all that terrible grinding but still reap the benefits in scores for future bosses.

Quote
I agree that grinding sucks, and for nearly any other class I never bother, but near the library is actually one of the best places to do it for Chemist throughout the entire game, and you aren't taking proper advantage of the class without getting some supplies, so it's unrealistic to skip doing this. Turtle Shells + Elixirs (from Zu) doesn't have a rival until the grass near Mau with the same drops, but you get more out of Turtle Shells early in the game.

If Chemist has Mix immediately upon beating Archeoavis (grinding for enough Shells to get through World 2 minimum) they should 1-2HKO Titan and Manticore with no risk of death. That would make me put them at the top of both of those lists. Not necessarily #1, but up there. Purablos isn't different, really. If you go up against Gilgamesh II without mix, you are going to have a really bad time. It's totally worth stocking up on Shells and getting Mix for that battle alone.

Needing to grind out an extra 45 ABP instantly disqualifies you from being near the top of the list for beating these bosses. I don't see how you can argue that they should be above Beastmaster against Manticore, as a random example. Beastmaster can catch Sand Bears for less effort than it takes to unlock Mix, and wreck the boss just as badly. I assume you think I've underrated Beastmaster too? Well, how about Ninja? A scroll/shuriken assault will kill with no problem, without as much grinding. A few rod breaks power black mage past. etc. For Manticore, there's simply no sane argument I can see that puts Chemist anywhere higher than #10. Titan has more weird variables depending on what level you assume for him, but broadly speaking the same thoughts apply.

On Chemists vs. Gilgamesh 2, I will go into more detail when I post the analysis, but I'll note that one Speed Shake, three Iron Drafts, and a Heal Staff should be enough to get Chemists past that fight.

Quote
On that note, with Samurai I would absolutely just use Zeninage against Purablos. The only problem with spending money there is potentially getting past Gilgamesh if you run out of money, but aside from him it isn't important starting World 2 in my experience. (You're stuck with Ashura until Surgate, IIRC) They can easily skip Gold equipment and just buy some Holy Water and Hi Potions. You probably were able to hoard money until this point in the game too, especially with the early Healing Staff/Ashura/Geo Bell carrying you through the early game. Just my 2 cents on this.

Yeah that's all pretty reasonable, looking at the numbers I'm pretty undecided as to whether they should toss that money or not. Regardless, they either have a middling performance without tossing money, or an easy one that requires a huge investment, and either way they end up around the same place ranking-wise, in the middle of the pack. You'll note I did use the presence of the money-throwing strat to tiebreak them above jobs with otherwise similar performances, e.g. Ranger.

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SnowFire

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2016, 07:06:03 PM »
Well, I think everybody agrees about the practical effect of massive overleveling.  Elf is right that gratuitous overleveling on one boss, + reflecting it on future bosses, makes a hash of *relative* rankings.  However, I think jsh might have a point if there was some kind of "absolute" scale of difficulty, where you get points for relying on obscure or unreliable strats, item use, money expenditure, side trips, grinding, etc.  You'd end up with something like:

Siren ease:

Monk: 2
Black Mage: 3
White Mage: 5 (slow win)
Blue Mage: 6 (req. fishing for Blue Magic win)
Knight: 10 (not reliable win)
Thief: 20 (req grinding rare drops or XP grinding)

Sandworm ease:
Most classes: 2-6
Thief: 10
Geomancer: 15
Bard: 16
Berserker: 1000

(Bosses later than Sandworm)
Berserker: 0 (lol Level 50 smash)
Most classes: 0-10

So yeah, that'd accuratley reflect overleveled Berserkers crushing puny bosses, but also make Berserkers look beyond terrible in an overall score, since the point penalty for having to overlevel over par on Sandworm is so gigantic.  (Especially to overlevel before the game gives you really really good grinding spots!)  Since this style might be kind of annoying to do, I think Elf's compromise of assuming par-level Berserkers is fine, especially since this is closer to the non-SCC experience.

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2016, 01:23:05 AM »
It is easy.  Elf penalises for previous grinding reqs as well.

Yes berserker has an easier time on X for being essentially a Disgaea character.  Berserker spent an extra 20 hours prepping for it.

Bottom of the list forever berserker.
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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2016, 01:26:41 AM »
It is easy.  Elf penalises for previous grinding reqs as well.

Yes berserker has an easier time on X for being essentially a Disgaea character.  Berserker spent an extra 20 hours prepping for it.

Bottom of the list forever berserker.

OK, I can get behind that logic.

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2016, 01:40:08 AM »
Sandworm is, amazingly enough, actually not the hardest mandatory boss in the game for Berserker SCC. There's one that's actually far worse, even at L99.

Elfboy and jsh at least should know immediately which one I'm referring to.

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2016, 02:13:41 AM »
I believe that one's a little less bad in GBA onwards at least, but yeaaaaahhh.

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2016, 02:27:27 AM »
Excal already said my thoughts perfectly.

Also, keep in mind, this is not intended as a SCC analysis, it is a job analysis and I'm just using SCC as a lens through which to do it. It's inspired by fiestas if anything, and I've taken the viewpoint that broadly speaking, what works on the SCC works on the fiesta (at least in part). Advantages broadly translate. The "use 4x Jump to avoid ST attacks" is the first one that completely does not work, so I'm not inclined to hype it myself. Obviously I can see disagreeing so you can move Dragoon up periodically if you feel like it. However, this seemed like an easy fix to make.

I agree that fixing Bard/WM offence is also desirable and I will talk about it at length if I do any final ranking, since it's a relatively easy thing to do. But unlike "I'll just ignore this one strategy" it's far harder to reflect in this analysis moment-to-moment, partly because how much you can improve their offence is highly dependent on what other jobs you draw.

jsh: Grinding is bad. One of the most basic assumptions I make with these lists is that if you have to grind, you're worse than jobs which don't. I acknowledged in the very first post about them that grinding for Mix ASAP is an option if you draw Chemist. However, that's a big negative that the jobs above them don't have to do! So they're going to be lower down until they reach the point where they'd have it naturally. This seems rather inarguable, actually? If you disagree, how far would you move Chemist above on any of the three lists so far and why?

I generally agree with finding it odd to dock WM so much for being a support character when getting it in a Fiesta would be pretty great assuming you have a decent draw of offence focused Fire/Water/Earth crystal jobs (though yes would be terrible up until you get the WC jobs), but honestly the analysis for this is much more interesting than it would be otherwise (they heal. This offsets the amount of healing other jobs have to do. #EveryPostUntilTheEnd).  As long as the final rankings don't really reflect this I don't terribly mind it as a thought experiment.

What I would like to see, though, at least in the final rankings, is the jobs grouped / ranked by crystal. I think this would also be interesting to include in the current rankings as well, since party composition is by necessity going to have you take one job from each in a Fiesta. Some notes on utility synergies (Theives helping steal Mix materials/earn Gil for Samurai, getting rare steals for other classes they could potentially be paired with, Control helping blue mages get skills, etc) would be nice, though, and aren't being reflected at all currently because while this was inspired by the fiesta format, in practice you are focusing solely on the SCC aspect of things. It doesn't generally matter for overall rankings, but the extra commentary would be interesting.

Also, on #BerserkerBottomForever, the fact that the strategy for a party with Berserker is semi-frequently gonna be "Kill the Berserker to have them not trigger counters" is the other side of the coin of "Overlevel them to 20+ in fuckin Karnak" is just sad. They did not think that job through all that well when designing it.

Last question, in the scope of taking everything as an SCC, how exactly do Blue Mages get 1000 needles in W1? Don't you need to control a Lamia in order to get them to use it?

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2016, 02:37:02 AM »
That's right, SCC Blue Mages can't get it at all until world 3 (by which point it's not good for much besides Omega). I largely have been assuming they don't have it, so far, but I'll point it out anyway because IF you draw Beastmaster as well (or are just doing something silly like a normal playthrough) they can.

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jsh357

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2016, 02:39:06 AM »
Fortunately, Blue Mages don't need 1000 Needles by any means. It's just really nice to have.

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2016, 02:47:59 AM »
You've already mentioned 1000 Needles for both Titan and Manticore, which is why I was pointing it out and confused about it coming up when otherwise the analyses (EDIT: In practice, if not in intention) have been SCC focused.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 02:49:32 AM by Makkotah »

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2016, 03:50:01 AM »
Yeah, I tried to communicate that having that was a big "if" but I realise I didn't do a good job of that, re-reading, for all that it was my intention (and the rankings at the end certainly reflected this, because Blue Mage with 1000 Needles is #1 all day every day against Archeoaevis since it bypasses all his defensive bullshit).

Mental note for something else I should so: take note of how often each blue spell gets brought up in these things. (Will it end up being Mighty Guard just because every Rift boss will be "Mighty Guard means you win, of course"? Stay tuned!)

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Musing on FF5 job balance
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2016, 06:05:16 AM »
And so we're onto World 2! First of all, I'm skipping a couple bosses. The first is Abductor 1, a solo fight you can lose, which essentially makes him optional and certainly irrelevant (you get an ether if you win, OMG). The second is Gilgamesh 1, another solo who is pretty much designed such that any class easily beats him. Thief outslugs him without needing to heal! As such, there's nothing to compare there. Plus, we already have quite enough bosses in this short section of the game. Thus, we move onto...

Gilgamesh (Big Bridge)

In some ways perhaps this is the real final boss of World 1, because you still haven't seen a world 2 shop yet and thus are fighting with the same things we fought the last few bosses with. At least we have a full party this time? Anyway, Gilgamesh has a reasonable stock of HP and a relatively weak array of attacks (the most dangerous being MT attack weaker than Manticore's which is used once every 12 turns). When he drops to about 1/3 HP remaining, though, he counters by casting Haste/Protect/Shell, buffing his durability and doubling his speed, and gains access to Jump, a physical attack which hits quite hard (2HKO most) and ignores both row and evade, which he uses 1/3 of the time. He also has the same 10% evade which several bosses have and it's still a pain in the ass.

One other important thing I should add about Gilgamesh is that he's vulnerable to silence... in the SNES/PSX version. This was very useful as it allowed his limit triplecast buff to be disabled, since everyone but Monk has access to silence (via Mage Masher at worst). In GBA and more recent versions, he gained immunity to this. I'll be analysing the GBA version here.


Knight has a trick here in the Ancient Sword, which has about a 30% chance to inflict Old. While Gilgamesh's magic power is (like most FF5 enemies in worlds 1-2) already at the minimum possible, this does lower his attack, making his basic physicals tink (important, since he uses them a lot) and drops his speed from notably above average to notably below. Anyway, Knight needs 5 rounds to win (maybe 6 with evade), so Gilgamesh will probably get four turns above the limit phase and two below, IF the Knights count HP carefully and don't knock him into the limit at a bad time. This will allow him to output about ~1100 damage before the limit and uhh ~1500 after, which is enough likely win. I don't see a good way to do this without Elixirs, which will tilt things their way. I will also note they really want to be Level 21, at which point Jump stops 2HKOing them, making heal-by-Elixir far more effective.

Monk's funny. Chakra comes out to play again, as Gilgamesh above half HP has bad enough offence that Chakra will likely keep up with it, unless he focuses on one Monk repeatedly (and even then they can toss Potions). Meanwhile, since he uess physicals so often (9/12), they can kill by counters, and dodge the limit entirely. It's not a perfect strategy but it will usually work.

The final fight where Thief has a unique advantage with Hi-Potions, and boy will they need them. They'll need about 62 attacks to win, Potions aren't good enough. Hi-Potions would get them through this, but then Jump 2HKOs and he doubleturns always in form 2. It's unlikely he'll kill one (1/36 chance every round that he uses Jump twice and hits the same person) but if he does they're in a lot of trouble. If not they can probably get through this with 20 Hi-Potions or so. If he does... Phoenix Down + Hi-Potion works. At least they're fast enough to not worry about being tripleturned, some jobs aren't so lucky.

Dragoons do their usual jumping thing, but their offence is wretched here too so they risk being worn down, though being in the back row helps. They'd need around 10 rounds to win. Again, they'll probably need to pull out an Elixir or two, and no ability to inflict Old makes them notably worse than Knight. But... probably better than Thief.

Ninja has Image! Which stops Jump. And indeed most of the rest of what Gilgamesh does. He still has SOME magic offence, enough to make ninjas pull out scrolls, although weirdly once they make it to the limit they're basically home free as he loses everything but an incredibly weak spell called Electrocute then. So... they can probably get by with plenty of normal physicals too, how many scrolls depends on how often he uses magic, probably just 2 or 3 at most. A totally safe win and relatively inexpensive.

Samurai uses Zeninage three times and wins, 3000 gil. Nah, that's excessive. One Zeninage can pretty much avoid almost all the limit phase. 2000 gil is certainly safe, 1000 gil could work if Gilgamesh doesn't use anything scary in the early going.

Berserker is a waste of space as usual, they need 6 rounds and are really slow so Gilgamesh has a 4-3. They can win with a lot of evasion/AI luck but they'll need it.

Ranger being in the back row with healing easily sees them through to the second stage of the fight, but that part is still tricky due to the doubleturning and Jump's 2HKOing. They'll need quite a few rounds, Nightingale CAN pull them through it but it's certainly a dicy affair and the Phoenix Downs may certainly have to come out. One thing that would help a bit is getting a Dark Bow (rare drop in Ronka) which can blind him, but it's not a necessity.

Mystic Knight really wishes I was giving them credit for Silence Spellblade since it'd be pretty great here. Instead... well, like Knight, they have Old via the Ancient Sword. But otherwise their offence is worse than Dragoon and they need to be in the front row. I'm inclined to say they're still above Thief since they're more damaging, durable, and evasive, and Phoenix Downs can somewhat suffice here especially once Old kicks in and only magic/Jump is a threat, but no Hi-Potion steals make it debatable.

Beastmaster REALLY wants to stock up on catches for this fight, they can't afford a drawn-out slugfest any more than Mystic Knight can. Three Sand Bears will remove most of his HP, and so if they soften him up a bit with physicals first that'll do. Another interesting option is to catch a Tarantula which can inflict slow when released, which overwrites his Haste, but it can miss so probably not worth it. Or Treants, which have the advantage of being super-plentiful and thus easy to catch, but they'll need to do about 2000 damage first to soften him up enough and that... actually is fine, they won't lose before then in the three rounds it takes. That's certainly more prep than Samurai, and probably ranks below Monk as well, though above Knight.

Like with Arcehoaevis, this is a marathon boss where White Mage's ability to just plain survive reaises it above many. One use of the Heal Staff repairs everything Gilgamesh does except for Wind Slash (one Cura takes care of that) and Jump. And after they cast Protect on everyone, even Jump enters a territory where one Heal Staff use recovers from it. So... they're in no danger and don't even have to spend MP often, they win slowly as always but win they do. Red Mage, of course, is simliar, except they kill faster, so less danger of screwing something up (White Mage does need like... 80 rounds).

Black Mage has it harder, though they do kill reliably in four rounds. That's better than Knight except they have notably less HP, so they actually get into slightly more trouble on average, especially since they don't have Old. But they can break rods, and should. This is the last time rods will do more than double their base damage! Their best strategy is probably to cast around 6-7 ara spells, wait for the start of the next round, then break 3-4 rods. This results in them taking only three Gilgamesh attacks plus the unavoidable Jump counter and while it's still a bit dicy, it should get the job done. Compared to Beastmaster, they're... actually very similar? The Getting this amount of gil strikes me as slightly less bad than the catching Beastmaster has to do.

Time Mage could also break rods, but they really don't have to. Gilgamesh can be slowed, which is great to start with, but when he casts Haste? Yeah, Slowing him at that point is pretty much the ultimate counter, it quarters his speed again. It's a little annoying to land through Shell. Alternatively, they can cast Mute. For those not familiar with this little-used spell, it's essentially FF5's Silent Lake: silences everyone, immunity be damned. The downside is that in most battles, there is a flag which prevents it from being used. This isn't one! So once they've set up Haste/Slow/Regen on everyone appropriate, they can use Mute and not have to worry about Gilgamesh's buffing. Jump is still painful, but with constant quadraturns and a Heal Staff, it's nothing they can't easily recover from while they poke him to death with knives. Or if they're impatient they can break rods.

Summoner will kill in three rounds. Limit in the middle is kinda bad but they can minimise it by letting him take a third turn and then blitzing him. No resources, but unlike White Mage up there is SOME risk.

Blue Mage... man I dunno. 1000 Needles is amazing if they have it, but to be clear, they probably shouldn't. Otherwise they're basically Black Mage (Flame Thrower instead of Fira, rod breaks still an option) with lower damage (maybe) but a lot more options. They can use Flash to blind him, or hit him with the Ancient Sword, if they want, and Vampire is quite useful before his limit, hitting over 90% of the time (or 100%, if they can land a Dark Spark). Once he activates his limit, though, they run into a lot of problems, because now Vampire will miss half the time and the doubles can overwhelm them, though with old/blind set they may be able to get by since only Jump is threatening. If things start going south they can break out the rods though, one round of that will mostly punch through his limit phase. So... they're a lot like Samurai, with a few more tricks to avoid spending money but will spend more if they do.

Back to the stallers, with Chemist! First of all, I'll note that with the three W1 bosses and the extra World 2 randoms now in the books, grinding for Mix becomes more feasible, though would still be a negative which would drop them a fair bit. That said, the only reason Chemist should have to do that is if they're out of Speed Shakes. Otherwise, this is the fight for them to use the Iron Drafts (Protect!) which I haven't hyped them using yet, they're virtually certain to have at least 3. With that, all of Gilgamesh's damage can be repaired by a Heal Staff. They'll want to haste the Heal Staff user but once that's in place, they should honestly cruise. Compared to White Mage there's a chance they'll have a bad hand and need to do some grinding, but it's not too large of one so sure I'll put them above Summoner.

Geomancer can output some... kinda okay damage with Gaia, somewhat weaker than boosted -ara spells on average. Unlike black mage, though, there's no rod breaking to fall back on, so they're quite a bit worse. They need 5-6 rounds to close the deal, like Knight without the HP/old or Ranger without healing.

Dancer has similar offence to Dragoon but front row / no shield / way less HP lol. Or Mystic Knight with more offence and some weak draining (which gets really bad after Shell) but no shield and way less HP. This is just bad. Thief honestly rates higher, I think Dancer would just need too many Elixirs/Phoenix Downs to win... actually Phoenix Downs don't work well in the limit phase where he can kill two PCs a round, ugh. So elixir farm like crazy? Level a lot? Hope to get real lucky with Gilgamesh's AI/evasion? I dunno, it's bad.

And finally, Bard. Sigh, you had a good run, Bard. But it's back to being terrible. Regen just isn't enough, the other songs don't work. They'll need to farm Elixirs, they have substantially worse offence than Dancer even. The ONE thing they have over Dancer is that, if they use Hide, they can literally turtle until Gilgamesh runs out of MP. He uses Aera once every 12 turns on average and he needs to use it 100 times to run out. So 1200 rounds. That... no, that's gonna take two hours and arguably shouldn't be hyped and even then they're not much better than the worst. So I think they're last.

1. Red Mage
2. Time Mage
3. Ninja
4. White Mage
5. Chemist
6. Summoner
7. Samurai
8. Blue Mage
9. Monk
10. Black Mage
11. Beastmaster
12. Knight
13. Ranger
14. Geomancer
15. Dragoon
16. Mystic Knight
17. Thief
18. Berserker
19. Dancer
20. Bard

Next up: isn't it nice how Red Mage was #1? Because that isn't happening ever again, as we enter the mythical land of "level 4 spells" and in general we get a bunch of major upgrades, the most important of which is storebought Hi-Potions.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.