Author Topic: Speedrun thoughts / Learning log - because I don't want to keep a blog  (Read 603 times)

Tide

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So yeah, I've thought about posting something like this for awhile. This is basically just kind of a record for me as I note down some of the difficulties and frustrations as I learn through various speedruns. I mostly speedrun RPGs anyway, so I figure this is fitting enough for the forum. Eventual goal is to hopefully learn how to do a majority of PS2 jRPG speedruns one day with some odd bits here and there so also a good monitor of my progress overtime! If you're ever wondering how someone learns to do a speedrun and it seems impossible, well, consider this a de-mystifying thread and more a general exploration of the insanity/work needed to produce a decent enough run.

Some things I've since learned about myself since I started doing speedruns:

1) I seem to have developed this amazing knack of patience. That's not to say I don't get frustrated, but when you do enough runs where RNG plays a factor, you eventually do reach a point whether your only choices are to try again or quit forever. If you do decide to try again, you realize there is a chance of running into the same problem again so not getting discouraged is part of the challenge. But if you do decide to hold out, you may eventually luck out and get a great time out of it. So having the patience and fortitude to sit through lots and lots of failure becomes necessary

2) I don't mind losing as much. It still sucks when you lose a PB or your time gets beaten or whatever, but given this is pretty commonplace with speedruns, you get more used to it. Records are meant to be broken after all - either by yourself or someone else

3) There is a lot of introspection and self-learning/de-briefing which is often where a good chunk of the learning comes from. Death doesn't bother me as much. No one likes wiping, but this happens so often that you kind of just become accustomed to it and then learn from the mistakes. In fact, sometimes winning (in complete BS ways) is more troublesome cause I don't know how to replicate it!

4) Because of speedruns, I actually end up spending less money on games than I think >_>.

Every runner brings different strengths and weaknesses to the table and they have different qualities that may make them better in one area than another. Two things that I value over most other runners are a) consistentcy without the need for large sacrifices in time and b) playing out runs as far as possible. I don't like resetting if something bad happens because that occurs way too often. Knowing how to adapt and changing tactics on the fly is hard, but being able to do it makes you much more knowledgeable about the game and allows you salvage situations otherwise not possible. As for my personal strengths, I find myself creating more back ups since I'm less good than other runners so I consider myself more as part of the routing side. Actually doing runs for me is a chore outside of a couple of games that I do like running (believe it or not!).

So where to start? Well, I do have a list of stuff that I want to do and try to get through. These goals are:

a) Finish learning Resonance (technically done). Start working on runs
b) sub 3:50:XX in Shadow Hearts: FTNW
c) Finish routing Mana Khemia 2 (about 50% done?)
d) Get notes for XS2, Cold Steel 2
e) Finish routing Wild ARMS XF (retirement project?)
f) Do a run of Wild ARMS ACF
g) Sub 5:10:XX in Wild ARMS 4
h) Update notes in Wild ARMS 3, do a run, sub 9:00:XX
i) Finish notes for MMXCM
j) Start learning XS3

In no particular order ofc, although a-d) are more on my priority list. The other stuff are varying degrees of "I want to do this". Energy levels and motivation are sometimes a problem, but hopefully I will get around to fully completing everything on my list at some point.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Speedrun thoughts / Learning log - because I don't want to keep a blog
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2016, 02:50:58 PM »
Guess I'll kick off then regarding Shadow Hearts: FTNW along with Resonance since these are the two games I'm currently working on and plan on making my primary submissions for RPGLB 2017. Most people here know about FTNW, so let's talk about that. It's a game where the speedrun is amazing because it focuses purely on the gameplay. In fact, RPGs where the core battle system is good often have great speedruns, unless they tend to largely involve glitches, in which case, that depends on the glitches to be done. Luckily, FTNW doesn't have glitches in it that we know of, so its just a straight up play with the judgment ring.

So I haven't actually been able to practice this game in a month since I left my disc in Texas. I finally got it back earlier last week so I just did a complete review of all the fights in the game, along with parts where stock is variable. That's actually one of the tougher skills to learn - managing stock. Some fights are a lot more simple when you have stock to bounce off of, versus when you have none. Learning this isn't something you can do in a day either. It's something that only happens the more times you run through the game, so you know when stock expenditure is a good idea and how and where to conserve it at maybe the cost of some time. For example, the forced fights against the monsters Gilbert summons in Machu Pichu are best fought without any stock expenditure. This way, you get to keep the stock for Poisonman, and if you do the revised strat there, can carry that stock to Killer 1 assuming everything goes well. Of course, since we don't use Shania anymore after North America, the very first fight where she participates against these monsters, her stock expenditure is free.

Which part are these then? Most notably, it starts becoming critical as early as Vegas. It's important early since you want the stock for Tatan'ka but you get some breathing room on Sentinel/La Sirene. However, MODOK is much faster when there is stock to bounce off of and Killer 1 is much much faster, so Vegas is kind of the critical part where stock manipulation is key. Because of this, hitting strikes so you're not burning any stock to save yourself from GANGSTERS is also important. This also serves as a good excuse for me to review the tier 1 and tier 2 magic strike zones since I need to re-adapt again to my standard TV. I miss a few of them, but the most part, I'm regaining my touch. Notable as well is that getting a ring perfect with Shania here allows her to one shot fat gangsters. Worth learning and practicing since it also helps with the Tatan'ka duel and opens a possibility to 3 round!

Redoing all the boss fights was also a good idea, since it reviewed some of the concepts that I need to keep in mind. Above all else in this run, offense is the key driver and you should be spending actions to improving offense versus defensive stock like taking away the enemy's stock or even healing yourself. That's not to say they don't have a place, but in certain fights, defensive maneuvers are a mistake and a big risk to getting yourself killed (sup Malice Killer). I get into a fight with Gilbert during practice where he went first and murdered everyone but Natan and eventually came back from it, although it took me 7 turns. I missed a strike on a Double Arc Cure/Arc Barrier which is what cost me that extra turn. If I had hit it, Hilda would've been ready to go and I could use the Third Key at that point to salvage. Guess that's a double ring I should learn the timing for. There's no trick to learning rings really other than just practicing, although I will say I've gotten a lot better at bullshitting ring perfects from learning more about the system. Speaking of rings though, I have to relearn the Double Gale Blast into Evil Shade ring, just in case I get the god luck opening against Killer 1. A zero turn victory there saves like 3 minutes compared to normal or something ridiculous.

The other fight I struggle with is Tatan'ka although that's largely due to ring execution and the fight being very tight by default. I also manage to beat La Sirene with 1 HP. Thanks for reminding me why we drop the seals on Shania! Speaking of Shania, she is bad and should feel bad. Stop missing attacks! Yeah, yeah, Yuri misses too in Covenant, but Shania's misses are often more fatal - probably because she has those duels. I think FTNW just reinforces my feelings that actual duels in RPGs suck :V. Then again, it could just be the high stakes that take place - I dunno. Anyway, this is another fight to go back and do more work on. The improv if needed just sucks.

Finished off my practice session with Lady. I love this fight, even though its essentially all execution. The stakes are high, you get blown up if you get too sloppy, etc but somehow it doesn't annoy me. Not quite sure why. Anyway, I probably should work on doing a Gate practice session instead of just fighting Lady since you need 1 bar of stock on everyone (and you're not guaranteed to have it after trees), but whatever. I just wanted to see if I still have it. Went pretty well for the most part! The blind Double Energy Charge Physical ring is still a pain - practicing for it helps to stabilize nerves a bit, but in the real thing, that's at the end of nearly 4 hours so the pressure isn't quite the same, let alone when you're on PB pace.

As for Resonance - I tried to redo Prologue to Ch.15 again since it's a good refresher and forces me to carry mistakes through and thinking about ways to salvage if I mess up. I get up to Ch.7 and find out that one of the drops I thought was guaranteed is also part of the RNG cycle. This is indeed a Tri-Ace game. Along with Tri-Ace hitboxes. 10/10. The I finished learning Chapter 16. Last two rooms in the dungeon are impossible. I can't replicate the strategy because the aggro always seems to be focused on the wrong person. I should figure this out again maybe sometime tonight. Oh and also need to learn the Christmas chapter for reals. I just basically free style it right now since you can't die, but I probably lose a gazillion years as a result. The kids have hitboxes bigger than Zangief and it makes me sad. As for the final boss, well. He's trickier than the other bosses buts its a RoF bosses meaning he gets owned pretty badly. This game is like that. Easiest boss fights, hard everything else.

<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Speedrun thoughts / Learning log - because I don't want to keep a blog
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2016, 02:18:05 PM »
Resonance practice last night - I ended up beating my previous time to Chapter 15 by about 1 minute and a bit. This is actually still really awful since I should be theoretically done the game by this point. Part of the problem stems from these tiny little very unsubtle errors that are very hard to notice. Like I don't feel like I am doing anything different but there is probably something that may be off by like a pixel (and thus causing a change in aggro or something stupid.

On the other hand, my memories for the maps and menus are a little more solid everytime I practice. That's something I guess.

<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Speedrun thoughts / Learning log - because I don't want to keep a blog
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2016, 01:55:16 PM »
Resonance review of Chapter 16 and other parts. Getting a bit more comfortable on the final dungeon. Will probably do my first run this weekend. I have still yet to get through Chapter 13 (the Christmas chapter) without running into an obstruction. Tri-Ace hitboxes make absolute no sense whatsoever. Also, the kids are FAT.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Speedrun thoughts / Learning log - because I don't want to keep a blog
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2016, 02:50:22 PM »
Took a couple of days off from Resonance to pick up a new speedgame. At the suggestion of rudyxx since I was wondering what I should tackle next, he suggested Covenant. I have LCC's notes on hand, so I decide to start giving it a spin. With FTNW's background, I'm not worried really about any ring execution.

So the first thing that is immediately notable is that this game is really analog heavy. Like in FTNW, I mix between D-pad and Analog because my analog on my main controller is junk, but Covenant movement uses Analog for a large portion. This is mainly due to the fact that there is no way to change default movement with the D-pad to running, requiring you to hold down the circle button, which can be pretty uncomfortable over a large period of time. Pretty sure I need to use my new controller if I ever decide to do runs of this game since I would just lose too much time from analog failure at various points. Also, I completely forget you can soul charge in the main menu and end up visit the Graveyard multiple times, thinking my game is bugged. I am good like that.

I get re-accustomed to Karin and Nicholai's rings. Karin's I still have pretty good memory of. Nicholai's ring though is ass. Seriously, those positions are awful (8 and 12 o'clock, really?). But since they are STANDARD in Covenant, I don't really miss much of a beat here. I have more trouble with Blanca's rings - specifically his 2nd hit zone since it's placed pretty awkwardly. Also, I am good with directions and still get lost several times. I played this game about a year ago and only once so I guess my memory isn't that good of what I need to do.

The toughest part so far has really just been memory work regarding navigation. Dungeons are longer and there are more of them. Some of them are awful due to the environments looking so similar (underground tunnels in Paris, that dungeon on the way to Wales...). The other two tough parts are 1) Crest menus because Covenant decided to name every Crest in some fancy name instead of like the name of the spell as with Stellars. So Amy is Entrance and you need to know this. 2) That stupid section where you need to play Metal Gear Blanca. Seriously. I hated this part in casual and I can tell I will hate it for runs as well. I just don't 'get' how this stealth section should work I suppose. On this plus side, if you get into an encounter, most of the time, Blanca will shot if you can get the strikes on his 2-hit physical.

Boss fights, like Resonance are easy as hell. Outside of Grail Gazer and maybe Poly + Castor, the strats are pretty much what I did in casual: Buff up Yuri, have him punch things and watch them explode. There's also the occasional Entrance'd spell coming into play early but that doesn't really kick in until after Grimlock. As you might have guessed by now, all the rings are easy. There is only one exception to this. Checking my stats, I've hit 97% of the rings with 88.6% of them being Strikes. I wish my strike rate was that high in FTNW :(.

The latest obstacle in the game is getting the Mind's Eye. You only have 3 chances and the ring spins really really fast. Supposedly, LCC suspects you only have 2-3 frames to land on the proper area. Missing the Mind's Eye is not an option because you just lose so much time without it. Something to worry about during runs. I've learned up to Russia at this point, but probably need a review to ensure I retain everything. But, weekend is likely going to be first Resonance run, so this will go back to the background for now.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself