Author Topic: Halloween battle: First deparature  (Read 628 times)

DragonKnight Zero

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Halloween battle: First deparature
« on: November 07, 2018, 12:48:04 AM »
It's here.  Eight teams have been assembled for your Halloween themed amusement.  Format will be 2 losses to be eliminated much like the hair tourney I ran.  It worked out well other than a few potential hiccups.

Since I'm running late, no witty flavor commentary on the teams this week.  Let's go right on to the matchups.

Demons: Beatrice (WA3), prinny Kurtis (Disgaea), Laharl (Disgaea)
vs
Robots: Asgard (WA3?), Tio with option of Tight Robe (Grandia2), Zero (MMX: CM)

Ghosts: Pamela Ibis (MK), Wraith (VP), Auron (FFX)
vs
Werecreatures: Rei (BoF3), Bob with Water Rune (Suiko2), Kevin (SD3)

Any battle with werecreatures will be held at night.

Witches: Lulu (FFX), Thage (EP), Arche (ToP)
vs
Puppeteers: Elize (ToX), Gepetto with Spikes and Mind's Eye (SH2), Mel with Lightning Rune (Suiko3)

Vampires: Hilda Valentine (SH3), Joachim Valentine (SH2), Asellus (Saga)
vs
Pirates: Rufus (VP2?), Pirate (BD), Aika with Purity Shard (SoA)

SnowFire

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Re: Halloween battle: First deparature
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 02:25:32 AM »
Mostly just musings.
Demons vs. Robots: Nope, too many I don't know.

Ghosts: Pamela Ibis (MK), Wraith (VP), Auron (FFX)
Werecreatures: Rei (BoF3), Bob with Water Rune (Suiko2), Kevin (SD3)

Team Werecreatures dies horribly once Wraith gets a turn, assuming you let him use Great Magic on turn 1?  Sounds like it might not even matter anyway, his backup damage is just fine and he's hard to rushdown, especially with Auron breaking some offensive stat.  Rei is flat garbage here.

Witches: Lulu (FFX), Thage (EP), Arche (ToP)
Puppeteers: Elize (ToX), Gepetto with Spikes and Mind's Eye (SH2), Mel with Lightning Rune (Suiko3)

Lulu double-casting death seems pretty good, if she gets a turn, but since she absorbs Lightning and can evade some of Elize's stuff, that seems likely unless Gepetto can OHKO with a puppet?  Elize would normally be broken as hell in a team match but the double-death with Mel & her both vulnerable seems problematic, even with an Auto-Life charge.  So probably witches?

Vampires: Hilda Valentine (SH3), Joachim Valentine (SH2), Asellus (Saga)
Pirates: Rufus (VP2?), Pirate (BD), Aika with Purity Shard (SoA)
The one good trick Pirates have is Aika confusing somebody, but the Valentines both immune that cheaply, and Asellus can hope for Deflect?  That said, Rufus & Pirate can probably team up to take out Fat Hilda before she moves, and Slim Hilda has less match-winning stuff, so maybe Pirates after all.  Can Asellus immune confuse?
EDIT: Never mind, per Tide, vamps can't stop confuse.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 06:28:29 PM by SnowFire »

Pyro

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Re: Halloween battle: First deparature
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 02:33:12 AM »
I think Elize Lutus can make her entire party status/ID (?) immune. Also her mdef/status res is insane.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Halloween battle: First deparature
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 03:44:46 AM »
Heh. I love that you put a Disgaea character and a Prinny on the same team.

Load Kurtis up with store-bought Muscle accessories to boost his HP. Laharl throws him at the opposing team. Opposing team takes Kurtis' HP/2 ITD&ITE damage. Almost certainly OHKOs Tio and Zero. Asgard isn't beating Beatrice on his own.

(Alternately, though, the enemy team focuses down Kurtis so his explosion doesn't cause much damage. Kurtis' defenses will be shit if all he's wearing is Muscle accessories...)

Tide

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Re: Halloween battle: First deparature
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 03:45:43 PM »
Demons: Beatrice (WA3), prinny Kurtis (Disgaea), Laharl (Disgaea)
Robots: Asgard (WA3?), Tio with option of Tight Robe (Grandia2), Zero (MMX: CM)

Voting on this based on stat topics + descriptions available. Anyway, I'm guessing this is Asgard3 because AsgardXF kind of OCVs on his own. Turn Order is: Tio > Asgard = Kurtis = Laharl > Beatrice > Zero. So the Disgaea cast has absolutely no way to block Instant Death. In short, Asgard3 has to be killed immediately lest Kurtis/Laharl want to die Turn 1 (Meeple lists the ID as 90% - but even if it isn't, anything that is 70%+ is an issue). Problem is, there is no speed stat for Kurtis or Laharl and Asgard is simply listed as "Average" (Note to self - Get actual values for Asgard), so they all get their turns at the same time. If Asgard goes first, Robots win without question. MT ID drops Kurtis/Laharl, Tio /w Tight Robe solos Bea since she's nothing but magic. The silver lining for Team Demons is that Zero's useless here since he's slower than Bea and has no way to block Sleep.

If Demons go before Asgard, its a little better, but Robots still likely win. Asgard's pretty durable so the only way Demons can win is if they manage to drop Asgard with the one turn they get. Otherwise, he still gets his turn and IDs turn 1. From there, repeat of the above with Tio soloing Bea.

Ghosts: Pamela Ibis (MK), Wraith (VP), Auron (FFX)
Werecreatures: Rei (BoF3), Bob with Water Rune (Suiko2), Kevin (SD3)

Werecreatures are grossly mismatched here. Auron goes first, uses Sentinel and now Werecreatures must kill with magic, which Kevin doesn't have and Rei is bad at. Rei as noted, is deadweight since his transform can cause him to target his own team. Meanwhile, on the other side, Wraith blows up Bob, then Rei, then him and Auron go to the Farplane and play cards or something cause Kevin can do jack to Pamela.

Witches: Lulu (FFX), Thage (EP), Arche (ToP)
Puppeteers: Elize (ToX), Gepetto with Spikes and Mind's Eye (SH2), Mel with Lightning Rune (Suiko3)

EDIT: Good fight. Checked out some stat topic notes and some assumptions I am making based on what I can find + discussion in Discord with user Snowfire. This can really swing either way, but some notable things I noted:

1) Arche has a fast cast accessory, so her cast speed should beat Elize (who does not have any fast cast listed as a skill)
2) Elize can only be in one mode at a time: Either ON (Magic reliant) or OFF (Physical reliant). Pyro notes that the casting time as "fast", but since I'm envisioning this as CTB, I would assume she still needs her actual turn to switch modes - just not requiring a full turn. This is important because it restricts what she is capable of doing. Most notably, Teepo must be ON in order for her to provide status immunity to the group
3) Without Teepo's MT Status Immune passive, Elize still has a 30% chance to null magical status.
4) Part of Auto-Med's hype comes from the fact that it can proc on every hit. So this might be more relevant if she was up against other Tales chars or SH2 chars with combo hits. Most notably for this, Lulu is all about single hit big ass damage.
5) Thage's Fear status becomes perfect on a physical hit.
6) Mel is basically useless because Lulu and Arche absorb Lightning and Thage is immune to magic.
7) Elize doesn't have any revival listed - Pyro is this accurate?

Going by Dhyer's statement that Thage can only be one rounded if all three of Team Puppeteers go after her, I think Witches have an edge here. Turn order for reference is: Mel > Arche >= Elize > Thage > Gepetto > Lu. Because Teepo must remain ON to maintain status immunity and Lu gets her turn before Elize gets another, Teepo has to pretty much remain ON for the whole duration, lest Puppeteers want to face down 2 IDers (one inaccurate but MT, one accurate but is ST x2) and some really nasty stuff from Thage (Fear notably is GG for that person if it hits).

So Mel does nothing of relevance on turn 1. Say he pokes Thage, cause Puppeteers want her dead. Fear is really awful if it hits. He could go after Lu too I guess, but Lu is much more evasive and probably more durable. Elize mostly likely will start with Teepo in ON mode, which shuts down Arche's ID. Her best bet might be to go after Gepetto and use something that does a lot of hits because Spikes causes SP damage a hit. The ToP stat topic doesn't list the hits, but if its like other Tales games, we're looking at maybe 7-8 probably. She could also go for some sort of MT damage but this doesn't do much since Elize can just heal it. When Elize goes and she can either heal off the damage or go for a combo on someone.

If she heals, Teepo remains ON, but witches won't take any additional damage. Note that she can't heal Gepetto's SP, so this isn't a great option. But Puppeteers maintain status immunity, which is important against Lu and Thage's turns. Gep goes after Thage then Thage uses Malusphere. Lu...probably does Dual Cast Flare or Demi/Flare if Demi outpaces initially. Demi is pretty good here since its MT and doesn't care about damage reduction effects. This might be enough to off Elize the first time but dunno - Thage and Lu both have to hit and both of Elize's auto-meds effects needs to not proc. I doubt this happens.

On Round 2, Mel hits Thage again, Arche goes after Gep again, then on Elize's 2nd turn, she probably offs Thage while remaining with Teepo ON. Not sure on this but Gepetto with Mind's Eye has a low 2HKO here, so him + 2 hits from Mel probably puts her low enough. Gep can now go after someone else - Arche I guess since Lu's evasive. Lulu can probably finish Elize now on turn 2. If not, she can probably off Mel/Gep both or maybe just damage Elize and kill Mel.

Arche now gets her third turn, she takes off Gep's remaining SP. He goes insane at this point so effectively, he's no longer important. So now we have Elize + Insane Gep vs. Lu + Arche at 50% or so. If Elize revives Mel (why), he dies pretty quick after and will still risk taking damage since Lu can Dual Cast to aim for 2 targets. So that's not an option. She can't Res Gep because he's not dead, so at this point she can either sit and hope an insane Gep wins this for her or go on the offensive. However, the moment she does this, both Arche and Lu can use ID. She could kill Arche I suppose, while remaining with Teepo ON, but Lu vs. Elize is a match Lu wins and then insane Gepetto running around has a chance to ruin her. You could argue it effects Lu as well, which yes, she's a target. But considering her notable evade here, Elize is worse off if Gep just randomly attacks.


Vampires: Hilda Valentine (SH3), Joachim Valentine (SH2), Asellus (Saga)
Pirates: Rufus (VP2?), Pirate (BD), Aika with Purity Shard (SoA)

Fun fact: Shadow Hearts does not actually have a confuse status. Unless you count Panic as that, but even then, in function it isn't the same. It just drains SP at 2x the rate, which isn't what confusion typically does. Further to that, if you actually do see running out of SP as equivalent to confuse, there is no accessory that can actually stop this (Blood Jewel if squint in FTNW, but nah). Turn order is something like: Aika > Asellus = Hilda > Rufus > Joachim > Pirate. Note that Asellus becomes about as fast as Aika after she transforms but I'm assuming she starts the fight untransformed (similar to Terra).

So this is kind of ugly. Vampires can't block confusion at all. Flip side, Pirates can block ID, which is the big selling point of Vampires. So Aika confuses Asellus, who does something ineffective. Hilda and Joachim don't have status healing and because Hilda goes before Rufus, she can't prevent an incoming KO from Rufus + Pirate going by healing. This in turn leads to her dying Turn 1 and it's all downhill at that point, with a confused Asellus and ineffective Joachim on one end and a completely fresh team on the other. Ouch. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 05:55:39 PM by Tide »
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Random Consonant

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Re: Halloween battle: First deparature
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2018, 04:58:10 PM »
Demons: Beatrice (WA3), prinny Kurtis (Disgaea), Laharl (Disgaea)
vs
Robots: Asgard (WA3?), Tio with option of Tight Robe (Grandia2), Zero (MMX: CM)

The heck is a Tight Robe, I don't remember any such thing... oh Dhyer hypes that as W8ness, yeah no reason to disagree with Tide's breakdown then.  Also I don't think Muscle accessories were ever directly purchaseable in Disgaea which certainly limits how much I'm willing to buy into Prinny tossing hype.

Ghosts: Pamela Ibis (MK), Wraith (VP), Auron (FFX)
vs
Werecreatures: Rei (BoF3), Bob with Water Rune (Suiko2), Kevin (SD3)

Yeah uh Wraith really needs to get dropped fast and that's not happening.  Werecreatures being almost entirely physical is also pretty great against Pamela but that's just comedy value at this point.

Witches: Lulu (FFX), Thage (EP), Arche (ToP)
vs
Puppeteers: Elize (ToX), Gepetto with Spikes and Mind's Eye (SH2), Mel with Lightning Rune (Suiko3)

ToX knowledge seems too critical here.

Vampires: Hilda Valentine (SH3), Joachim Valentine (SH2), Asellus (Saga)
vs
Pirates: Rufus (VP2?), Pirate (BD), Aika with Purity Shard (SoA)

Abstain, don't know Team Pirates well enough.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 05:16:33 PM by Random Consonant »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Halloween battle: First deparature
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 11:37:49 PM »
Tight Robe makes Tio (or any G2 user) unable to cast magic, but also makes her unaffected by ally magic

Demons: Beatrice (WA3), prinny Kurtis (Disgaea), Laharl (Disgaea)
vs
Robots: Asgard (WA3?), Tio with option of Tight Robe (Grandia2), Zero (MMX: CM)

Ghosts: Pamela Ibis (MK), Wraith (VP), Auron (FFX)
vs
Werecreatures: Rei (BoF3), Bob with Water Rune (Suiko2), Kevin (SD3)

Any battle with werecreatures will be held at night.

Witches: Lulu (FFX), Thage (EP), Arche (ToP)
vs
Puppeteers: Elize (ToX), Gepetto with Spikes and Mind's Eye (SH2), Mel with Lightning Rune (Suiko3)- Interesting. Am having to stat topic Elize, but she certainly looks extremely nasty. This might somewhat come down to casting speed. Thage can inflict a rare status with blistering accuracy (and would probably need all three enemies to take a shot at her to take her out)+Lulu can wreak havoc. All three Witches can laugh at Mel's Lightning Rune, although Gepetto is a different story. Since it might come down to casting speed, I'm hesitant to make a vote because both teams have some really notable assests.

Vampires: Hilda Valentine (SH3), Joachim Valentine (SH2), Asellus (Saga)
vs
Pirates: Rufus (VP2?), Pirate (BD), Aika with Purity Shard (SoA)- Aika goes first and Confuses whoever she wants. Pirate and Rufus have equips for ID and Pirate can do great rushing damage
...into the nightfall.

DragonKnight Zero

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Re: Halloween battle: First deparature
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2018, 04:37:38 AM »
Tight Robe also provides no defense so the wearer will take more damage from physical attacks.

Muscles are not buyable at all in Disgaea.  There's a few armors that naturally give HP boosts but to a lesser degree than Muscles.  Even using three Muscles over armor wouldn't be a huge difference in damage taken.  Disgaea defense is straight subtraction: 0.26 x DEF base damage reduction for melee weapons.  So 150-200 extra damage from physical attacks.

Demons: Beatrice (WA3), prinny Kurtis (Disgaea), Laharl (Disgaea)
vs
Robots: Asgard (WA3?), Tio with option of Tight Robe (Grandia2), Zero (MMX: CM)

Beatrice, Kurtis, Laharl, and Asgard all hover around average speed for my views.  Then I remember Tio has Whisper to Stars and it's tiny speed buff which is enough for me to have Asgard go before demons.  I don't give that much credit to his instant death but do see it as accurate enough to take out one of the two Disgaea PCs.  Doubt the survivor kills Tio in one turn but even if that did occur, Asgard will land ID on the next attempt.  Believe he can still outslug Beatrice solo.  More raw HP even though he's earlier and better damage.

Ghosts: Pamela Ibis (MK), Wraith (VP), Auron (FFX)
vs
Werecreatures: Rei (BoF3), Bob with Water Rune (Suiko2), Kevin (SD3)

Horribly spoiled.  Wraith takes out Bob and what can the others do?  Kevin may be able to hurt Pamela with a Lv 2 or 3 tech but I'm not sure he can land enough hits on Auron and Wraith to charge them up.