Final Fantasy 7 (Full)

[Meeplelard]

You're right Yoshi but the party does split at some point after that? With Aerith as the party leader in the Shinra building. I guess I'd allow her any materia she can pick up then if any (POIZN oh noes!?) As far as the Enemy Skill materia goes I wouldn't say it doesn't have anything to do with her completely - if the boss drops it we're fighting the boss so that *she* can be taken to safety. It's all part of the rescue Aerith procedure! *flee*

Can...Aeris actually explore Shinra Tower at all?  I just assumed you could only jump into the Elevator, and go straight down to the boss fights.  I wanna say the game doesn't let you go down the stairs at all via party yelling at you or your keycards not working or what not, but I'm honestly not sure.

All I know is giving Aeris plot claim to anything in Shinra tower strikes me the wrong way on grounds that she has the least amount of gameplay there (well...Red XIII is debatable.)  Feels weird she should get a gameplay upgrade from something that is not only never attributed to her, but others have access to it before nad more so during that arc.   I dunno; it feels like a major stretch.

Oh, and Yoshi, there *ARE* fights between Sample and Jail Sequence, just I don't think they're on that floor.  Recent play through, I ran down a few floors to fight Moth Slashers to get some Carbon Bangles after Red XIII joined, at least, I'm pretty sure I did this.

*OH*

Regarding MP Absorb, you missed a key point:

Its actually found in a random house before then.  Yuffie just comes, and swipes it off you right after you grab it.  When she rejoins, she goes out of her way to grab it (probably cause it wasn't part of your initial Materia Pool, the game needed some sort of extra trigger to insure it was there, would be my guess.)  Make of this as you will.

...except you said HP Absorb...which is explicitly *NOT* Yuffie's house.  Its the house with all the cats, I believe, though obtainable after the Wutai arc is finished, so Yuffie can be around for it.

The stuff in Yuffie's house is nothing; if we mean Godo's House, its the Hairpin and the Magic Shuriken, two weapons.

Speed Plus is not associated wtih Cait sith at all, I thought; its just a generic prize at the Battle Square.  If you allow him that, why not allow him accessories like the Champion Belt?

[DjinnAndTonic]

Regarding MP Absorb, you missed a key point:

Its actually found in a random house before then.  Yuffie just comes, and swipes it off you right after you grab it.  When she rejoins, she goes out of her way to grab it (probably cause it wasn't part of your initial Materia Pool, the game needed some sort of extra trigger to insure it was there, would be my guess.)  Make of this as you will.

...except you said HP Absorb...which is explicitly *NOT* Yuffie's house.  Its the house with all the cats, I believe, though obtainable after the Wutai arc is finished, so Yuffie can be around for it.

The stuff in Yuffie's house is nothing; if we mean Godo's House, its the Hairpin and the Magic Shuriken, two weapons.

Speed Plus is not associated wtih Cait sith at all, I thought; its just a generic prize at the Battle Square.  If you allow him that, why not allow him accessories like the Champion Belt?

*shrug* I don't even remember what Cait Sith has to do with the Battle Square, I was just accepting suggestions at this point. I clearly don't remember anything about FF7 materia collecting.

As for HP Absorb, I got the information directly from the GF Materia FAQ... I'd be inclined to allow MP Absorb based on what you said though.

[Yoshiken]

Enemy Skill: Cloud can get one of these. The one in the Junon Training Centre - only Cloud can enter this place, and I think it's only as a Shinra soldier, meaning he's the only person in the party.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You can go back there at like disc 2 and pick that up, I think. The game stops caring entirely about what places you couldn't get into on disc 1 by the time Cloud gets back to your party.

[SnowFire]

Luck: Critical hit Rate. Since this stat is effectivly equal for all characters, it doesn't matter much

I requested a further elaboration on this from the Vice President.  It does matter, after all, for situations like heal-locks where the FF7 character is slightly slower, and has to hope for a crit before the doubles kill them.  Or for RPGMon, where weird random chances can happen on turn 1.

Luck: Three things, actually.
* 6% chance of autohit bypassing evasion.  Independent from critical hit check.
* 6% chance of a critical hit  = double damage.
* ?% chance of autoevasion...  if the enemy's luck is lower.  Chance is basically [defender luck - attacker luck]/4%, so an FF7 character fighting someone with half their luck would have a 3% chance of autoevasion, and mildly lower luck a 1% chance of evasion.  Hype it vs. FE7 Morphs and Ashton?

Cid and Barret have worse Luck than the rest of the cast, so it's only 5% for them.

Luck gained from levels is apparently very bad after lvl. 10 or so, so these probabilities don't change much no matter what level you take FF7 characters at.  Luck Sources do matter, though, if you try and incorporate them...  though the DL assumption that they'd be spread equally among 8 characters (or at best 3 characters) does make them unlikely to matter much, too.

Anyway, 6% means that after 11 turns, there's a 50% chance that the FF7 character got at least one critical hit (and an independent 50% chance of at least 1 autohit).  After 22 turns, the odds go up to a 75% chance of at least one critical hit (same for an autohit too).  So not TOO likely to matter but who knows.  Mint beware.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The same Mint who merrily hits into L4 limit ranges and tends to get slaughtered by a lot of L2s to begin with? >_>

[Meeplelard]

Crit rates that low are generally negligible, as are evasion rates.

It...really will never matter.  Almost everything a crit will matter against is someone who is stuck on total defensive, not double turning, but has limitless resources *AND* is being heal locked.  And in cases like that, a forced Heal Lock is usually equivalent to a loss.

(in Mint's case? She's running out of MP before she kills, especially when we factor in Limits <_<)

[Reiska]

Nitpick: Fire/Lightning/Ice materia give -2% HP/+2% MP, not -5%/+5%.

[superaielman]

Notes: Just my own notes from my latest run of FF7. Light on everything but purple materia, which I used pretty heavily.

Turks

Level 56

Average HP: 7888+8088+8905
Dex: 59+74+50

Average HP: 8293
Average Dex: 58

Damage done: 5600 (Comet 2, Cid), 14200 (Mug/Added Cut, Yuffie), 4200~ Cloud (Physical)

Hojo

L57

Average HP: 8635
Aveage Dex: 59

Damage done: 15000 (Yuffie), 5000 (Physical, Cloud), 5600 (Comet 2, Cid). Note: Conformer damage goes up in Hojo's second form to 17000~

Jenova Synthesis:

Level 61
Average HP: 9668
Average dex: 62

Damage done: See Seph

Sephiroth

Level 63

Average HP: 9938
Average dex: 63

Damage done: 19998 (Yuffie), 7400 (Cid, Comet 2), 17380 (Cloud)

[Meeplelard]

Mind specifying how you got that damage?  This isn't doubt as much as noting it wouldn't hurt just for reference purposes.  I assume one of CLoud/Yuffie is 2x Cut and the other is Mug + Added Cut or some such?

[superaielman]

Yeah. Cloud was 2x cut, Yuffie was added cut/mug. I had 2x Cut on Cid for the AP against the Turks, not that it actually mattered due to not hitting 4x cut before Seph. I don't give the Turks support credit due to the way HP works in that fight, though I could be argued on that. I took off dex up for those averages as well, though I was running a cursed ring at that point.

I don't consider the second cursed ring to be remotely reasonable to get for DL purposes. Default ribbons make more sense, since bosses do like to use status. You can make what you will of those damage averages, but FF7 bosses range from pretty bad to super bad at durability at the end of the game.  Final weapons alone are a large increase in damage for every PC besides Barrett/Tifa/Vincent, and most aren't that hard to find.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Even Barret gets a considerable damage boost - you don't really have much reason to not fill the Missing Score with Materia besides AP building, most of which has been done already by the point you get it. Its offensive failure is mostly a DL artifact.

[Meeplelard]

Not quite, actually.  Barret's Ultimate just isn't very effective for the most part.  Endgame AP on Materia, you're not likely to get it's damage up all that high.

It's one of the less effective Ultimates in-game for this reason.  Maybe after a lot of aftergame preparation for Emerald/Ruby weapon and such, it'll be good, but it's just kind of a poor weapon overall.  Probably outdamages his other physicals, but anything less than 3x just isn't impressive late game (and Barret does struggle to reach that.)

That said, the funny thing about Tifa is her weapon doesn't give her a big damage boost because she has other weapons that give Ultimate-like Mults.  Though, Premium Heart still crushes them in raw attack (99 vs. 38 on Master Fist was it?), and still capable of getting the 4x Mult (though, she has to use Mime or Mug + Added Cut.)  Tifa's physical lacking damage in the DL is the real shame, because in-game she easily is the best physical PC outside of maybe Conformer Yuffie set ups, and Tifa's set ups are available even earlier.

[SnowFire]

So...  what would Barret's endgame DL damage be if he's given 8 Mastered Sense Materias, just out of curiosity?  (Picked that as a random "useless phantom materia as a rough guess".)

[ThePiggyman]

So...  what would Barret's endgame DL damage be if he's given 8 Mastered Sense Materias, just out of curiosity?  (Picked that as a random "useless phantom materia as a rough guess".)

This is the Missing Score damage formula.

[Power*(Total AP attached to Weapon /10000 )/16]+1

Sense is mastered at 40,000 AP, so 8 Mastered Sense materias would let Barret do exactly 2 times as much. To reach the typical 3x multiplier of the other ultimate weapons, he would need 8 Mastered materia that required 60,000 AP or more each (most Support and Summon materia are well above this margin, though).

[superaielman]

Yeah. The Missing Score requires a heavy materia load and high levels of mastery. FF7 green materia is pretty crap and summons get replaced quickly for use, so it's not a winning setup. The Missing Score's marginally better than the fucking Death Penalty, but I wouldn't use either Barrett or Vincent for physicals at the end of the game. The DL reflects this of course as both have pretty worthless physicals.

[SnowFire]

superaielman was ranting about Hojo for some unknown reason recently at me, and there's a cool Enemy Mechanics FAQ nowadays with disassembled data & formulas, so a somewhat updated Hojo entry, + a sorta plotty yet faily other end-of-Disc 2 boss.  Stealing Meeplelard's format as a base.  Warning: this is totally based on the mechanics guide, not off actual in-game testing.

It's FF7, we all know this, but obligatory reminder that your power level is rather variable based on how much cool stuff you're using/abusing.  You can quite reasonably have at the end of Disc 2, a Mystile, 2 Ribbons (trivializes Hojo beyond belief, although also perma-missable), 2x Cut Materia, Contain Materia, & various powerful Summon materias.  If you're being a bit of a completionist, you can also have some ultimate weapons (at the cost of 0 materia growth) & various broken Enemy Skills (Magic Hammer & Big Guard most notably).  Your call on how much of this to bake into party stats.

Myself, I'll be assuming 5000 average PC damage = 15000 party damage = 0.4 boss PCHP.  HP+ materia is storebought on Disc 1 and totally awesome so I'd assume average party HP of ~6000 or so.  I also personally would assume back row damage for physicals thanks to most of the party being mages + Long Range materia for any short-rangers, although I could see an argument for perhaps 1/3 front row, 2/3 back row.

Proud Clod
"We will be broadcasting your miserable deaths live on national television."
(Scarlet & Heidegger are inside)

Fights with Jamar Armor.  Jamar Armor doesn't get actions, merely affects what Proud Clod's moveset is by its presence or absence.
HP: 60000 (1.60 PCHP)
MP: 320
Defense: Good ( takes ~20% less from physicals than average)
Magic Defense: Good ( takes ~35% less from magic than average)
Speed: 88, "Above Average"

Jamar Armor: 20000 HP (0.53 PCHP), excellent PDef & MDef - ~30% reduction to physicals, ~40% reduction to magic

Big Hand Clash, Wrist Laser, Knee Fire, Knee Blend: 570 FR / 285 BR physical, can sometimes double act.  (Despite its animation, Knee Fire is not fire elemental.)
W Machine Gun: 1000 FR / 500 BR physical, can sometimes double act
** Double-attack proc chance on the above moves increases with damage taken: 20% chance @ 80% health or more, 25% chance from 60%-80%, 33% chance from 40-60%, 50% chance from 20-40%, and 100% chance below 20% health.
Materia-jammer: Cast Reflect on an ENEMY (not self), can only use while Jamar Armor is alive. 16 MP
Beam Cannon: 930 magic, full MT.  Requires 2 charge turns AND a cooldown turn, i.e. kneel -> charge -> Beam Cannon -> get back up.  Can't use unless under 60% max HP.  32 MP.

Comments: Don't you mean Proud Cloud?  Anyway... immense scrub, at least if you're inclined to my views on party durability + back row.  Watch out for that 12HKO that upgrades to a 6HKO as it gets injured.  Proud Clod is genuinely tanky, at least, which lets him beat up Shady, but not much else.  Light.



Hojo
"Haw...now let's see how the Mako juice is reacting..."

Hojo has 3 phases.  I'd consider this a legal formshift chain myself: it's one continuous battle without even intervening cutscenes or the like, buffs stay up, etc.  Only difference from, say, Yunalesca HP phases is the HP buffering effect.  YMMV, of course.

Also, all forms have averageish defense.  (FF7 Defense / MDefense isn't very potent, Proud Clod is an outlier.)

Hojo:
HP: 13000 (0.35 PHCP)

Speed: Wacky

Abilities
Capsule: Summons up the Bad Rap Sample and Poodler Sample.  If any are dead, summon replacement(s).

Bad Rap Sample:
HP: 11000 (0.29 PCHP)

Speed: Average

Abilities:
Whip: 360 FR / 180 BR physical, 1/4 chance of double act at full health increasing to 1/3 (50-75% health) and 1/2 (<50% health) by current HP.
Evil Poison: 280 FR / 140 BR poison elemental physical, 100% chance of Darkness (???)
Big Fang: 1000 FR / 500 BR, ~75% hit rate

Poodler Sample:
HP: 10000 (0.27 PCHP)

Speed: Average

Abilities:
Physical: 430 FR, 215 BR
Fire2: 500 fire damage, used ONLY as a counter...  when below 25% of max HP...  at a 33% chance...  yeah, you'll never see this ever.

Comments: Mechanically, Hojo has two dead allies in this battle and he's merely reviving them over & over, but the flavor seems to be summoning them, so eh.  He seems to go first despite a meh listed speed, but his summons certainly won't act until turn 2.  Note that you are VERY unlikely to see Evil Poison or Big Fang as the AI script won't use them until its 3rd and 4th turn, and why wouldn't Hojo be long since defeated by then.

Helletic Hojo:
Fights with Right Arm & Left Arm.  They don't act, their presence or absence merely adjusts what moveset Hojo has.
HP: 26000 (0.69 PCHP)
MP: 200
Speed: Slow

Right Arm: 5000 HP (0.13 PCHP)
Left Arm: 24000 HP (0.64 PCHP)

Abilities:
Pile Banger: 1450 FR / 725 BR physical, only usable while Right Arm is alive.  1/3 chance of double-acting this (1/2 chance of doubleact if Left Arm is dead but Right Arm is alive).
Confu: 60% chance of confusion, 18 MP, only usable with both Arms alive
Bio Gas: 500 magic damage, 100% chance of Poison, only usable with both Arms alive
Sleepel: 72% chance of sleep, 8 MP, only usable while Right Arm is *dead*
Silence: 60% chance of silence, 24 MP, only usable while Left Arm is *dead* and Right Arm is alive
Revive: Revive the Right Arm to full HP.

Comments: Duelers immune to sleep but not Confusion might want to kill the Right Arm over and over.  Any ol' crappy MT will do.

Lifeform-Hojo N:
HP: 30000 (0.80 PCHP)
MP: 100
Speed: Above Average

Abilities:
Physical: 400 magic damage, 2 MP, 255% Hit Rate
Combo: 4 consecutive hits; each one triggers counterattacks and the like:
** 190 FR / 95 BR physical
** 460 FR / 230 BR physical, 80% chance of poison
** 270 FR / 135 BR physical, 80% chance of darkness (FF7 dark = 1/2 hit rate)
** 610 FR / 305 BR physical, 80% chance of sleep
** Combo Total: 1530 FR / 765 BR physical
Slow(All): Adds slow status, 67% hit rate when MT, 100% hit rate if cast ST (AI will always cast MT vs. a party), 20 MP
Silence: Adds silence status, 60% hit rate, only used as a free counter against Magic or summons, 24 MP

Comments: Unfortunately, Low Middle, thanks to usual DL inflation of single target status?  Atrocious vs. sleep & confusion immunity due to horrible damage, but if you're vulnerable, you risk beating yourself up in phase 2, and getting Sleep soft-locked in phase 3, something that isn't really a threat in-game due to both other party members + limit triggers in the middle of the combo.  The Sleep lock isn't perfect, but even if it fails to proc, the Blind may still make it chancy for opposing duelers to take advantage of the opening.  Also gets hilariously owned by Fire Emblem lights off counterattacks even if he's doubling thanks to Slow.  Might get pushed down to High Light if you hold 1/3 of a Mystile's worth of evasion against him, though, as that slashes both his damage over time and his ability to maintain the sleep-lock.