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Author Topic: Disquiet: The Post Mortem  (Read 1325 times)

AndrewRogue

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Disquiet: The Post Mortem
« on: July 23, 2014, 06:30:10 AM »
I should have done this ages ago.

So, Disquiet is pretty dead. It has been for a while. The reason is honestly pretty simple: I really hate game development. After two years of on again/off again work, this is an unfortunate, but important, discovery.

See. I like design. That stuff? Blood fantastic. It is fun. It is engaging. It stretches your brain. It lets you explore awesome concepts. I'm also a huge fan of writing. Crafting stories is something I adore doing. I even love playing around with words, mincing them, breaking them down, building them back, and all the other minutiae of writing.

But actual development? Holy shit is that a drag to me. I can't stand scripting. I loathe coding. Mapping is the worst thing ever. I found absolutely no joy in any of that nonsense. Which brings us to the first point: unless you really love everything about building an electronic game? Independent game design is probably not for you.

Independent projects are efforts of love. If you don't love them, your chances of actually finishing them diminish greatly. If you absolutely can't stand large swathes of the work required in an independent project? You're really unlikely to finish it.

This isn't to say you have to love absolutely every moment of what you're doing. I mean work is going to be work eventually. That's how things work. You just need to like enough of it to keep your motivation high. Because, when it comes down to it? Most of the project is going to be riding on your back.

Which brings us to the next point: help. Everyone on Disquiet was fantastic. They did great work. No joke. But ultimately, they all had their own things going on. They had jobs and lives and all that sort of nonsense to concern themselves with, which meant that I couldn't necessarily rely on them to do everything I needed or when do it when I needed them to. And that bypasses the complications that stemmed from only being able to work with them online.

It just isn't easy to always be on the same page when you can't be in the same room.

Speaking of groups. Design by committee sucks. You end up with a lot of disparate elements since everyone has their own agendas, ideas, vision, and the like. This isn't to say you can't have input from other people. That's always good. You just need to have a leader, a central arbiter to really guide everything. You shouldn't really be throwing stuff at people and going “you got ideas on what to do here?”

I cannot stress this enough. Projects need strong leadership and strong vision, otherwise you end up going every which way. I think trying to con people into working by acquiescing to their designs isn't the right way to approach this sort of project. People need to be involved because they want to be involved.

Tangentially, working with like minds is somewhat important. Let me get this out there now: echo chambers are bad. You should never surround yourself with mindless Yes-folks. At the same time you shouldn't surround yourself with folks who disagree with everything you want to do either. It just isn't helpful. You end up sparring too much over individual decisions and waste a lot of time.

Woof. I think that's a pretty good breakdown of on the people front. What about the game?

Well, first and foremost, I still find pure turn-based games to be problematic on the design front. It is just hard to create really interesting game decisions in pure turn based games. There just aren't that axes to operate along. Each character gets a turn and the choose a skill on it. That's all. You have to rely entirely on skill effects to create interesting gameplay, and skills can only do so much here.

This is compounded a bit by enemy design. Without being able to develop more complex AI, you're stuck with two options: rely on randomness to generate challenge or rely on reliable patterns to generate challenge. Both have their own issues and neither ends up feeling quite satisfactory. In one case you risk the player just getting wrecked on a guess, the other creates a fight that is solvable. Both are kind of suboptimal.

A lot of this comes down to issues of visible information. Creating interesting decisions relies on players having real agency in their decision making. If a player doesn't understand what an action will actually do, then they aren't really making a decision. Unfortunately, we still had a lot of that going on:  damage, status, oh... and Dexterity.

Dexterity was our biggest mechanical flaw I think.

First, and foremost, it is way too central a stat. Functioning both offensively and defensively means that it is incredibly centralizing. You can't range it too far or you'd spread damage values out immensely. We saw this happen with Erastus who, despite being relatively durable on most fronts, was actually incredibly squishy thanks to a low Dex.

The ingame effect was also incredibly lackluster. It had been intended as a way to make equipment options more interesting (by offensively altering Dex), but the lack of feedback kinda defeated this. Players had no way of knowing how much switching a weapon would actually change anything. I feel we could have achieved a similar desired effect by simply giving weapons a swing trait. Simpler, easier to balance, and more immediately understandable.

So, given infinite freedom, what would I have done differently? We'll save that for another post.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Disquiet: The Post Mortem
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 11:33:28 PM »
As someone who was reasonably involved with the project, I'll weigh in too.


I enjoyed being part of the project, certainly. I have a lot of fond memories of the early stages, drawing up mechanics (during the height of it, trying to make sure thoughts of the system didn't distract me from work). And, unlike Andy, I generally like scripting, and the project was a good excuse to help me learn more of RPG Maker VX's scripting language which I've applied elsewhere. (I also applied previous knowledge/scripting work to Disquiet, so it's a two-way street. Everyone wins, yay!)

I do agree a lot with what Andy says about group projects (at least ones where everyone is expected to work for free) do need very strong leadership and vision.  I think Andy's leadership was good, but I wasn't always buying into the whole project myself. Oh, I enjoyed it, certainly, and I don't think the project was bad - certainly a game I'd have played if it had been completed! - but nor was I really invested in it either. The writing side of things never had me fully hooked after my own little band of favourites was dropped. As Andy says, a project can't acquiesce to everyone's little pet designs to work, so dropping them was the right thing to do (and I bear absolutely no ill will over it, to be clear), but after that it was hard to have much investment on my end since yeah that was where my own investment on the writing side had been coming from.

I learned that, in a project I'm a bit less invested in, I really just enjoyed getting instructions and carrying them out. When Andy said "hey NEB do you think you can do [scripting project]" I enjoyed the challenge of doing just that, and I think most of the time I was able to deliver (mostly. Never had the heart to build my own party-swapping script, seriously how is there not a free one out there for something so fundamental). I enjoyed going over what we needed to be done scripting-wise and prioritising things with him.

I did not enjoy the meetings much. Nothing against the people involved. But I found them really long and they ate into my evenings in a way I resented; I couldn't do much else with the time or even talk to Ciato during it. And after I became mostly just around for mechanics questions and coding, it felt like a lot of conversation didn't really concern me. Sometimes I'd do something else during long stretches of discussion I wasn't involved in, which I felt pretty guilty about. I dunno what the solution is here. Hopefully people who -were- more invested than me found them more worthwhile. Maybe I should have asked to be excused, but I felt kinda obligated to attend.

Dexterity is sort of a mea culpa. I probably shouldn't have used one of my crazier ideas in Disquiet. I'd hoped to be more involving with battle design and equipment design than I ended up being where I really intended to tinker with the system, but as is I kinda left you guys with the idea and it sounded challenging to work with.


Other random thoughts less about Disquiet in general:

I obviously disagree that one can't design good turn-based battles; I wouldn't have played nearly a hundred purely turn-based games, or gotten into designing my own, if I agreed! I think every party member choosing an appropriate skill and target, a choice which varies depending on the opponent(s) fought, can be fascinating.

On the other hand, I definitely agreed that you need to love all parts of game design (or at worst manage to tolerate a few of the parts you like less and enjoy all the rest). Fortunately I fall into this more than Andy does... but obviously was not willing to do all the less popular parts for a project I wasn't super-invested in. Mapping's also one of my less-liked parts, so I certainly wasn't going to volunteer for that even though I tolerate it in my own work.


Ah well. To conclude: it was fun, and yeah, seconding what Andy said: everyone involved was great. I hope everyone else learned from this experience as I did and I look forward to seeing some of your individual works down the line.

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Grefter

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Re: Disquiet: The Post Mortem
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2014, 12:41:14 AM »
I don't think I have it in me to do a full dissection of it, but can discuss points that are coming up.

Also do want to say thanks to everyone putting up with me coming in part way through , I know I tended to have a bit of force of personality there (having something to say on like all the topics).

I do also disagree that you can't do interesting decision making in turn based combat.  Even strict turn based combat (so not CTB or some variation) has room for maneuvering.  Bravely Default clearly shows this to me at least.  I think the thing we struggled with the most was the restrictions of RPGMaker itself there.  We just weren't able to communicate enough information to the player to be able to give them the details we wanted to so that we could drive interesting decisions.  There is stuff we could have put in play that would have been interesting choices and clinch decisions (we were heading there with Stamina and Heal Block!  Heal Block is a fantastic mechanic), but restricted information out of the game made those kinds of choices feel like punching in the dark and would have given the feeling of arbitrary puzzle bosses, a design we were all pretty adamant about steering clear of.

A ton of that ties back in to Dexterity.  It was a neat idea in paper and you can clearly see how it works mathematically.  It just required a way tighter tuning than we had in development to work and without being able to have the game output clear examples of what was going on and how things interacted it was entirely impenetrable to the player.  If you could have a floating display that shows your expected number of hits and average damage on a target?  Sure you could probably do it when paired with a smaller delta on enemy stat difference or reduction of impact for multiple swings (probably do the old FF thing of lots of swings to avoid the huge gap between 1 and 2 swings).  It was a workable design mechanic, it just didn't fit our scope.

That is something definitely to keep in mind.  Just because something didn't work doesn't mean it was a bad idea.  If anyone uses some of the ideas from this in something else then more power to them, whether it be something one of us does or parallel design happening with another group.  I think there is some really good fun concepts in the work done.

Also I want to really note that it is a shame we didn't succeed, there is actually a burgeoning market for this kind of thing on Steam that I hadn't predicted when this started.  I don't think it would have sold a ton and made anyone a bunch of cash, but I do think there would have been a bigger audience than I first expected (like maybe 20 people?).
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Disquiet: The Post Mortem
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 07:17:30 AM »
Just to be clear, I don't think good turn based is impossible (I mean, I'm a boardgamer!), I just think a bare bones system (ala DQ which was what we could mostly emulate on RPGMaker without giving the program a serious wrenching) is very hard to design really interesting decisions in. That said, if we could have wrangled some easier information display, that might have actually been enough to do it. As was, I was very uncomfortable with status and the like purely because of the lack of feedback.

Anyhow, I do have some forthcoming thoughts (mainly that design wise, I am way more interested in games with movement, ala SRPGs). And responses to the rest of your guys' thoughts!