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Discussion / Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Last post by metroid composite on May 06, 2024, 09:13:55 AM »So ok, thinking more on the two ban-a-thon lists.
I think for the first list (where no subclass or spell is banned)...it probably also makes sense to not ban any racial selections. So, for example, flying races would be legal.
At a glance this might seem like a boost for light armor types, your monks and rogues. But the problem comes with the Winged Tiefling, who also functions in medium armor, although with some mild downsides compared to other flying races. This would not apply to legacy content, so no 50 foot flyspeed Aarakokra, but winged tieflings are technically not legacy content as nothing has replaced them.
What implications would this have for the order of the list? Well...if there's any point where I'm thinking about taking Earth Genasi or Githzerai for Pass Without Trace or Shield...yeah, screw that you almost certainly want a flying race instead. Additionally, I think there is some opportunity for the Barbarian to move up--I sort of dismissed the Barbarian damage as fairly conditional due to being melee on the first list, and it is pretty conditional, but it's a lot less conditional if you fly.
That said, no changes to the top 5 I think
1. Paladin
2. Cleric
3. Ranger
4. Wizard
5. Fighter
Paladin is too hard to replace. Peace Cleric dips still busted. Gloomstalker Ranger still busted. Wizard still brings a lot of unique spells and no investment ritual casting, and Chronurgy is busted at level 10 and 2 level wizard dips are pretty good. Echo Knight is still busted.
Next up I decided that Sorcerer/Warlock needed to be broken up, and that is probably still true. Ranged is still generally preferable to melee even when you have the option of flight. That said, some of the value of Warlock was probably coming from Geenie Warlock getting really good flight at level 6, so is there a chance it's Sorcerer first this time? Hmm...no, I think the logic still holds that...replacing Sorcerer with Bard is fairly painless especially if you still have Warlock around to grab the shield spell from Hexblade. But banning warlock stops the Sorcerer/Warlock teamup, and hurts Bard a decent amount.
6. Warlock
And yeah, the general logic of once there's only one class with easy dippable access to the shield spell, ban that class still sounds pretty good to me. 1 level Sorcerer dip is good for a lot of reasons--sorcerers have proficiency in CON saving throws. By picking Divine Soul you get a bit of extra protection on your saving throws. Just good.
7. Sorcerer
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I think here, though, after Warlock and Sorcerer might be a logical place to stick flying barbarians?
Is the gap between Bards and Druids really all that large? I kind-of feel like it's not. Like...they probably both want to be winged tieflings, and that means the only way the Bard picks up the shield spell reasonably early is by being a Lore Bard, but then they don't have medium armor proficiency unless they dip for that or spend their level 4 feat on it, and one way or another that puts them either behind by a feat or behind by a level of spellcasting progression. And...I mean, also Lore Bard other than being able to pick up shield early is a fairly generic subclass, whereas Druid has flashy subclasses. So...yeah, not really convinced banning one of either Bard or Druid really hurts all that much, but Barbarian does have a notable niche of hitting very hard.
And I mean, there's still damage comparisons to Conjure Animals from Druid I guess, but the thing is the Barbarian damage is now much less conditional, they can hit flying enemies cause they fly, whereas Conjure Animals damage drops against flying enemies. (Also drops against a lot of enemies with damage resistance if you're any subclass not named Shepherd).
Yeah, I do think Barbarian can now stand out as the remaining class whose effects are hardest to replace.
8. Barbarian
So I mean, here's a question, is it even still Bard next? I think being really strongly encouraged to be a Winged Tiefling while having most of your good dipping opportunities taken away is kind of rough for bard, cause if they want to keep up on spell progression, it wouldn't be until level 12 that they get the three feats together Resillient CON, Moderately Armored, and Warcaster.
So like...what are their options even? They can't dip fighter, which would cover medium armor and CON saves. But they could dip Artificer. And dipping 1 level of Artificer isn't bad at all, keeps full spell slot progression, even though they'll be behind on spells they actually know.
But then here's where we start talking a little bit about pointbuy. Like...ideally to dip artificer you would like to end up with 16 CON, 16 CHA, 14 DEX, and 13 INT, but you can't actually pointbuy enough stats for that (while only using the +2/+1 from winged tiefling). You need to either drop CON to 14 or drop DEX to 12. DEX seems like the clear choice.
But...Druid is just kind of looking more attractive to me at this point. Doesn't have these rough build choices. Does have Conjure Animals, which...while it is somewhat conditional, is now kind of the way to deal big damage with Barbarian gone, even if it won't work in every fight.
9. Druid
So...what's after Druid? I mean, it's probably just Bard right? Like there are bards with extra attack who could build dex and do standard ranged attack stuff. And a low CHA Bard will still bring plenty of utility (and eventually Animate Objects, which is a remaining monster damage spell).
10. Bard
And then surely it's Artificer next yeah? I mean, the value of Winged Boots goes down when people just pick flying races, but yes I suspect it still is. Monks and Rogues can't really deal with groups of enemies, Artificers have AoE effects, either from infusions like Pipes of Haunting or their own spells. And Monks and Rogues are kind-of very similar to each other.
11. Artificer
12. Monk
13. Rogue
I think for the first list (where no subclass or spell is banned)...it probably also makes sense to not ban any racial selections. So, for example, flying races would be legal.
At a glance this might seem like a boost for light armor types, your monks and rogues. But the problem comes with the Winged Tiefling, who also functions in medium armor, although with some mild downsides compared to other flying races. This would not apply to legacy content, so no 50 foot flyspeed Aarakokra, but winged tieflings are technically not legacy content as nothing has replaced them.
What implications would this have for the order of the list? Well...if there's any point where I'm thinking about taking Earth Genasi or Githzerai for Pass Without Trace or Shield...yeah, screw that you almost certainly want a flying race instead. Additionally, I think there is some opportunity for the Barbarian to move up--I sort of dismissed the Barbarian damage as fairly conditional due to being melee on the first list, and it is pretty conditional, but it's a lot less conditional if you fly.
That said, no changes to the top 5 I think
1. Paladin
2. Cleric
3. Ranger
4. Wizard
5. Fighter
Paladin is too hard to replace. Peace Cleric dips still busted. Gloomstalker Ranger still busted. Wizard still brings a lot of unique spells and no investment ritual casting, and Chronurgy is busted at level 10 and 2 level wizard dips are pretty good. Echo Knight is still busted.
Next up I decided that Sorcerer/Warlock needed to be broken up, and that is probably still true. Ranged is still generally preferable to melee even when you have the option of flight. That said, some of the value of Warlock was probably coming from Geenie Warlock getting really good flight at level 6, so is there a chance it's Sorcerer first this time? Hmm...no, I think the logic still holds that...replacing Sorcerer with Bard is fairly painless especially if you still have Warlock around to grab the shield spell from Hexblade. But banning warlock stops the Sorcerer/Warlock teamup, and hurts Bard a decent amount.
6. Warlock
And yeah, the general logic of once there's only one class with easy dippable access to the shield spell, ban that class still sounds pretty good to me. 1 level Sorcerer dip is good for a lot of reasons--sorcerers have proficiency in CON saving throws. By picking Divine Soul you get a bit of extra protection on your saving throws. Just good.
7. Sorcerer
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I think here, though, after Warlock and Sorcerer might be a logical place to stick flying barbarians?
Is the gap between Bards and Druids really all that large? I kind-of feel like it's not. Like...they probably both want to be winged tieflings, and that means the only way the Bard picks up the shield spell reasonably early is by being a Lore Bard, but then they don't have medium armor proficiency unless they dip for that or spend their level 4 feat on it, and one way or another that puts them either behind by a feat or behind by a level of spellcasting progression. And...I mean, also Lore Bard other than being able to pick up shield early is a fairly generic subclass, whereas Druid has flashy subclasses. So...yeah, not really convinced banning one of either Bard or Druid really hurts all that much, but Barbarian does have a notable niche of hitting very hard.
And I mean, there's still damage comparisons to Conjure Animals from Druid I guess, but the thing is the Barbarian damage is now much less conditional, they can hit flying enemies cause they fly, whereas Conjure Animals damage drops against flying enemies. (Also drops against a lot of enemies with damage resistance if you're any subclass not named Shepherd).
Yeah, I do think Barbarian can now stand out as the remaining class whose effects are hardest to replace.
8. Barbarian
So I mean, here's a question, is it even still Bard next? I think being really strongly encouraged to be a Winged Tiefling while having most of your good dipping opportunities taken away is kind of rough for bard, cause if they want to keep up on spell progression, it wouldn't be until level 12 that they get the three feats together Resillient CON, Moderately Armored, and Warcaster.
So like...what are their options even? They can't dip fighter, which would cover medium armor and CON saves. But they could dip Artificer. And dipping 1 level of Artificer isn't bad at all, keeps full spell slot progression, even though they'll be behind on spells they actually know.
But then here's where we start talking a little bit about pointbuy. Like...ideally to dip artificer you would like to end up with 16 CON, 16 CHA, 14 DEX, and 13 INT, but you can't actually pointbuy enough stats for that (while only using the +2/+1 from winged tiefling). You need to either drop CON to 14 or drop DEX to 12. DEX seems like the clear choice.
But...Druid is just kind of looking more attractive to me at this point. Doesn't have these rough build choices. Does have Conjure Animals, which...while it is somewhat conditional, is now kind of the way to deal big damage with Barbarian gone, even if it won't work in every fight.
9. Druid
So...what's after Druid? I mean, it's probably just Bard right? Like there are bards with extra attack who could build dex and do standard ranged attack stuff. And a low CHA Bard will still bring plenty of utility (and eventually Animate Objects, which is a remaining monster damage spell).
10. Bard
And then surely it's Artificer next yeah? I mean, the value of Winged Boots goes down when people just pick flying races, but yes I suspect it still is. Monks and Rogues can't really deal with groups of enemies, Artificers have AoE effects, either from infusions like Pipes of Haunting or their own spells. And Monks and Rogues are kind-of very similar to each other.
11. Artificer
12. Monk
13. Rogue