Author Topic: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle  (Read 851 times)

SnowFire

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It's been ages, so...  mostly an excuse to use the more recent stat topics in Unranked Games.  I used way more characters than "usual" on the theory that quite a few of them have just one or two voters, so the number of actual votable characters is more reasonable.  Included the usual XX vs. template if anyone wants to throw in some custom matches, too.

Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Panette (FE Engage) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Panette (FE Engage) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Pugilist (EO5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Pugilist (EO5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Nosuri (Utawarerumono) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Tressa (Octopath) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Tressa (Octopath) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


XX vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
XX vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
XX vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
XX vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
XX vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
XX vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

XX vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
XX vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
XX vs. Bart (Xenogears)
XX vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
XX vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
XX vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2023, 02:09:18 AM »
Like SN, I don't hold generics against the D5 plot PCs.

Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - I'm pretty reluctant to hype characters from games where multihit physicals are the norm giving D5 characters increased revenge gauge gains and 3 swings is a pretty normal amount of swings in S3.  Killia -does- have his own evade game as well as War God to ramp a bit and I agree that if he can live long enough to use Tyrant Revelio he wins but that needs 8 attacks to happen.  Meanwhile, Nash is faster, averages a 3HKO at base, and has Heavy Damage/stun procs, which feels like too much to ignore to me.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)  - This is probably right, Killia resists fists and takes less damage from range 1 folks and probably does so to enough of a degree that he can outslug.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Not really outslugging this, though.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - I'll bite, helps that Crono is a bit shy of a 3-2 to average speed even at best so he only gets 5 attacks in.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Going after Cherche with swords is a laughably terrible idea especially with Killia's poor HIT stat so fists it is!  That's... probably enough though?  Coinflip evasion isn't really Cherche's friend here since they both have similarish durability (well, if Cherche is in melee and not using a lance at any rate but using a lance means no brave) here and Killia can use AHW to avoid brave axe counters.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - uh Killia's best non-phys damage is a bit more than half that of Macrocosm and that's not really good enough.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Probably another case where being able to use fists and use AHW to avoid melee counters works, I think.  Not looking at this one too hard though.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - Typical Miranda problems.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Evade and poizn at worst, I think.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - I doubt anything Killia has works well here?  Disgaea characters being able to counter counters might matter if you don't allow starting OD meter but I do.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Killia should have a good base ATK stat from what I recall but it's not reduce Crash below turn 2 good and he kind of needs that.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - 2HKOs first.

Engage's KP is 55 to me (possibly a bit higher since the smash weapon average only factors in accuracy randomness and my thoughts on that should be clear), so no Panette OHKOing average with a silver greataxe hype.

Panette (FE Engage) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Nash... was a knife user, right?  Anyways he doubles, 2RKOs, and goes first.  Panette 2HKOs herself but Nash has good evasion so she'll probably whiff the second attack (and needs to use the less accurate tomahawk to counter, I think?  S3 weapon specifics are kind of a blur.)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Alena's evasion is a bit worse though and she's locked to melee so that probably is enough to tilt things.  NES version might flip things but that's not the version I played.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Kneejerk.  Panette does go first which makes things interesting but Meliadoul has shield evade, gets around the counters and has that whole weapon breaking nonsense. e: OTOH averaging in StQ/W8's impact on the physical durability curve is fair and... yeah I don't see a problem with allowing Panette what she'd need here.  Hellcry being able to double wouldn't be too outlandish but uh Meliadoul can't wear hats and Panette's not -that- slow so I'm not sure why that was even brought up.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Doubles, gets around counters.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Goes first and 2RKOS with a brave axe.  Panette doesn't 2HKO back with silver axe and silver greataxe is suicide.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - So silver greataxe 2HKOs through the phys resist... Heat Riser... I don't think it buys him more than the turn needed to use it and it doesn't let him ORKO.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Doubles, gets around counters, and no, Whirlwins aren't sufficient to convince me that Danette has an attack match disadvantage against axe-using infantry *proceeds to tap the sign*.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - um.  Even with starting SP I'm not sure how Miranda has the damage for this?  It's not like that would magically give her the MP for two WSDs.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - The cheese claims another victim.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - e: right, it was Ally, that's a thing.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Probaby?  Panette STR is really, really dumb, very likely makes Crash turn 3 or worse and Gryz doesn't double.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - As much as Yellow Scarves don't matter here, Nash can deal with any potential Immobilize hype well enough anyways.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Alena 2HKOs and 3-2s.  Blind's not foolproof and if Hughette tries for Immobilize Alena just finishes the deal once that fails to reapply.  Which it will, because status infliction in TS is based off of level and Alena is above average in that regard.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - I can't say I see Mighty Sword being useful here, and while Meliadoul can block Blind and Don't Move she can't block both at once, and surely riding a cute bird suffices to bypass shield evasion so I think this is actually right.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - TS characters can't dodge magic so.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Yeah probably.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - lolnope.  Adachi doesn't go first against PCs ever but it doesn't even matter with the status immunity and the phys resist.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - oh look, *an actual flyer*.  Danette really didn't need to lose half her damage against someone like Hughette.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - I mean I really have no idea why Miranda is in this pool.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Nope.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - So Gryz is Lv45 to an average of Lv42.11 let me see what I think about Immobilize landing turn 1 here.  And again Blind not foolproof.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

Pugilist (EO5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Yeah none of Nash's advantages work out too well here.  He'd really wish for an interp that makes Yellow Scarves not trash and I don't need to tell you how I feel about that.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4] - Not sure about this one.  DS Alena being worse makes this harder to read but Puglist does need an Arm Bind quickly and equipping a +stat accessory to help with that and that does poor things to your durability in EO5.  Leg Binds do help but not -that- much since Alena's speed is really dumb.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Blocking Don't Act is a pretty good analog to blocking Arm Bind and Hellcry is gonna ruin Pugilist forever.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Not letting Vigil Hat cover binds is probably enough, One-Two Punch is a heck of a thing.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) -  Think so?  Cherche is pretty durable and 2RKO with a Brave Axe before one considers arm binds.  She does have below average Luck which helps but even then that doesn't totally kill her damage and she does counter.  And once the arm bind wears off Pugilist is pretty dead.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Yeah there's no reason to believe Adachi is vulnerable to binds (and even if there were, they're inherently less accurate against FOEs/bosses ingame) so Pugilist is stuck being a pure physical slugger with unspecial damage.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Danette's faster and has counters.  Arm Bind's the only one that's particularly helpful here and that doesn't come out fast enough.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - Miranda really has issues putting people away with the transformed time she gets.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Pugilist is very accurate indeed, and to me they're faster than Bart.  And you can't have an evade game when your legs are broken.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - Evade & Counter ruining gameplans yet again.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Probably.  Arm Bind won't land turn 1 by default, but I'd allow the +stat accessories which helps Pugilist's infliction rate (and drives down Crash's accuracy as a bonus).  Does drop defense a bit but having your arms broken is pretty dang bad for your damage and Gryz isn't good enough to afford that.
Pugilist (EO5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - Concussion is game.

I'm pretty sure I've been convinced to use the two-turn average for 8PT for reasons that I've forgotten.

Tressa (Octopath) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - I think so?  Tressa can't really get anything desicive off before Silent Lake goes up and Nash outslugs under that.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Goes first, probably 3-2s because 8PT speed is actually worthless forever, and multihitting means she likely gets around Hang Tough.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Sidestep works well enough here to me.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Crono 4HKOs with Luminaire through Rest and has a 4-3 turnsplit so he avoids Bifelgan's Bounty.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Tressa kind of needs Sidestep up at all times to not die horribly and even then needs for you to find it in your heart for it to void both brave swings.  I don't, Cherche goes first because 8PT speed is completely worthless forever and again, has multiswinging to get around Hang Tough.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Mudoon's turn 2 to me but that's good enough.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)- Sidestep into Bifegan's Bounty claims a victim, I'm not sure what merchants would really correspond to but I'm not inclined to assume a favorable type match in Danette's favor.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - Rest and Sidestep make a mockery of Miranda forever don't they.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Black Snake pretty much removes any argument Tressa had here.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - Building for magic damage should let Bifelgan's Bounty kill without much of a fuss.  What's Kimahri gonna do in the meanwhile?  And Kimahri can't really do anything against wind magic.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - More sidesteppin'
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - Hang Tough means Lemina doesn't 2HKO first, which means she dies to capitalism.

Umimaru has low 3HKO MP consuming physicals/melee counters and a low 2HKO ITE finisher.  At least he's durable?

Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Not heal locked.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Sounds right.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Luminaire just barely 4HKO's Umimaru's 1.7 mdur... except Umimaru has a red orb and lightning is considered green, which means it actually doesn't 4HKO.  Oops. I GUESS if you wanted to argue that Luminaire corresponds to white instead this reverses but meh.  Anyways Umimaru 4HKOs and Crono doesn't have a 5-3 here so yeah.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Better physical durability and notably more damaging.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Honestly probably just outslugs.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Super Umimaru Cannon -> Tera-Charge -> Super Umimaru Cannon puts an end to Bart's nonsense.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - Unless I'm mistaken about Kimahri not having an OD he can win with here, the same strat should apply because I'm definitely not going to hype Lancet being worth a damn here.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Umimaru has pretty unimpressive STR which apparently BROSE also checks.  And yeah I'm not on board with Inorganic Body extending to instant death immunity.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Hilda didn't really need to be whiffing every other attack here.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Maybe?  Apocalyptic Flame does make it a bit interesting but it being OPB for me doesn't really make it interesting enough, and again Hilda does not need a significant percentage of her attacks to whiff.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - And again.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Well at least MT can't double but Crono's durable enough to not be 2RKO'd even if all four brave axe swings connect and he's 3HKOing with Luminaire himself.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Superior brave axe game and QUICK BURN because again, Hilda accuracy sucks.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Is Hilda innaccurate enough that Heat Riser might actually let Adachi stall for time for once?!  Probably not with my overall low Adachi respect, and of course Heat Riser does nothing for status accuracy which probably means Hilda's weak magic evasion matters a bit too much.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - I'd tap the sign again but that probably doesn't matter here, Hilda has accuracy issues but she still 2RKOs on her own turns with a brave axe and unlike Panette she's not being doubled and Break isn't a thing here.  Meanwhile Danette... 4HKOs Hilda's durability in melee and probably wants to avoid melee counters and so does worse in practice, assuming that would even work at all since I think that involves row switching nonsense which lol no so never mind!  Also never mind whatever imapct Apocalyptic Flame has on the match.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

this is a lot, rest later
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 07:32:17 PM by Random Consonant »

Magic Fanatic

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2023, 06:48:41 AM »
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Nash activates Revenge increases three times per turn, and Killia starting with Fists means that he has a ~50% evade rate which knocks Nash's 2.5HKO to a 5HKO.  Killia hits Revenge, activates Tyrant Revelio, and I doubt Nash's evade can dodge three shots of way overkill damage in a single turn (20K before factoring in War Demon to a 14277.5 Kill Point).
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Alena dealing damage with a 0.64x multiplier per hit (even on her crits), means that with Killia starting Fists for his 50% Evasion, she has a 4TKO assuming one crit, and Killia 3HKOs back.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Meliadoul having ITE Weapon Destruction and huge physical damage resistance herself means she blows him up without much issue.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Okay, assuming that Crono 3-2s Killia and Killia 4HKOs if he starts Fists...  The 50% Evasion probably means that Killia can win this?  4 Luminairs means 2 Luminairs, Confuse, miss the Spincut for 6 turns...  Yeah, this can work, but it's pretty coinflip-y.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - I'll go with RC's assumption up above.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Uh, Phys Resist and Mudoon is enough.

Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - Killia 2HKOs handily with Sword, isn't 2HKOed back.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Killia can't kill fast enough before Bart becomes basically physically immune.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - I don't think Killia has anything to stop E&C
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - I can accept Crash working before Killia can kill, since most pure status/debuff spells in-game bypass SPD and just check target RES.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - Equips Sword and yeah, 2HKOs first.

6-5 with one abstain, so...  Seems like he fits in this range.  Of course, this is also assuming I've done my math right.

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2023, 03:03:37 AM »
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3): 3HKOs, doubles, is 2HKOed. Panette can probably kill with Tomahawk + Iron but even so I suspect he evades at least once, he's good at that.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4): Barely one-rounds with a double on average, I think? If she fails Panette counters and kills her easily.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics): Panette 2HKOs even through Defence Up, even if Mel equips for HP, at least to me. Shield blocks one but asking for 2 is a bit much. The wildcard is weapon breaking; obviously if Panette can bring in three Steel Greataxes she'll cruise. But that's probably not reasonable for a few reasons, so we'll go with steel + 2 iron? That's probably fair. In which case she can do 156% damage, which kills Meliadoul to me, but only because I do create a defence average for her + Worker 8 these days. I suppose Meliadoul could equip for HP and that... might let her avoid a 2HKO now, but on the other hand Panette can just use more accurate weapons and 3HKO anyway. Very close. If you let Meliadoul double with Hellcry Punch she wins but lolno, and physicals aren't a good idea for obvious reasons.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger): Crono can kill with a doubled Confuse and a Luminaire. He opens with Luminaire since Panette will have the Tomahawk out. If Panette switches weapons, he can kill with Confuse. If she sticks with the Tomahawk, he still kills with Confuse after eating a counter, and he can just take two Tomahawks.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening): Cherche 2HKOs Panette with either of her classes (Griffin doubles), Panette doesn't 2HKO except with a Greataxe, and FE vs FE rightly exposes those weapons for the problems they have.

Panette (FE Engage) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad): Danette did not need the -50 damage vs. axewomen here, she 4HKOs with melee or 5HKOs with ranged, meanwhile Panette just 2HKOs as always.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon): Likely a match that starting SP would flip.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Bart (Xenogears): Telling women to smile while wearing bad-smelling cologne.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X): Sits there with E&C until his overdrive fills up, takes home a Panette statue.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4): Huh, yeah, I'm willing to bite on super strength spoiling Crash.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2): OHKO.

Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3): Hughette only 3HKOs, Nash can evade and/or heal off what she does while his damage sticks, and since he goes first and 3HKOs he only needs to sneak in one extra attack at some point.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4): Doubt Immobilize goes 2/2, and Hughette absolutely needs it to. Blind's description is missing from the stat topic for some reason but yeah it's nowhere near ironclad, IIRC it's accuracy/3 or something like that.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics): Yeah I'm not giving Meliadoul's opponents phantom equipment for her to break. It's not like Mighty Sword-immune enemies are remotely uncommon in the stretch of the game after she joins.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger): Faster, doesn't care about her nonsense.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening): Immobilize kinda wrecks here.

Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad): Blind and the mounted flier matchup are probably too much.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon): Yeah I use a much lower kill point than the one Snowfire uses, Miranda 2HKOs average with Star Children + White Silver for me, let along Hughette. No final additions for Dart/Haschel/Meru.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Bart (Xenogears): Yeah +40 hit is not letting her win this slugfest.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X): No answer to E&C.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4): I think it's pretty reasonable to see Crash as subject to Immobilize, although I would see Sweeping as long range. So she immobilizes Gryz and... has to try to find a way to cut through all his durability. And... just like with Alena she's not gonna land a second, as somehow she faces two people with inflated level in the same pool.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2): 2HKOs first, yep.

Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3): Bowser doesn't 2HKO so Nash should be able to wear him down.
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4): Different tier of dueller here.
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics): Another Meliadoul opponent from a game with no equipment, too bad. Depends on how much of Bowser's damage is seen as ITE maybe, but I'm inclined to say most of it, outside the dash.
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger): 3HKO with Luminaire first.
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening): Brave Axe hurts.

Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad): May not need typing advantage to outslug, but she probably has it anyway.
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon): ORKO by a small margin.
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Bart (Xenogears): I probably take "ignores partial cover" moves as -50% to target's evade, but... yeah Bart can go much higher than that. But the stomp might just be ITE to me? Not sure about mechakoopas. EDIT: was convinced the mechakoopa should be counted as ITE too.
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X): A lot of Bowser's stuff is AOE. It's probably enough.
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4): Crash
Bowser (Mario+Rabbids 2) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2): Pretty sure he 2HKOs first.

Tressa (Octopath) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3): Spoils all her tricks more or less.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4): Can overpower Sidestep or healing and easily outslugs.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics): Y'know, sure, I buy Sidestep beating ITE. It probably doesn't have to, since Tressa could probably win this without equipment via Sidestep + Rest, just it would take forever.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger): I think so, though there's a chance she can dump BP to stall Crono out of MP... but nah probably not, if Crono sees that he can ease up on damage a bit since even low-cost stuff overpowers unboosted Rest.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening): Pretty close! I'm inclined to take the effectiveness of wind vs. Awakening fliers as the same weakness it most commonly hits in its home game (since it's super hard to scale otherwise), which means Tressa falls just short of a 2HKO.

Tressa (Octopath) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad): Sidestep cheese.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon): Miranda gets to dragoon but thanks to Rest, can't kill with it, and as soon as dragoon goes down, Sidestep comes out.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Bart (Xenogears): Kneejerk was Tressa but yeah, Black Snake and the multhits do it.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X): Tressa wants to go all in for magic damage here. She should at worst win on turn 5 with a boosted Tradewinds followed by Bifelgan (Lancet won't save that). Kimahri could win with MP damage respect but these days I don't think I consider that.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4): Sure, I'm willing to consider Crash suitably physical for this.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2): Lemina needing 3 turns here is rough, since Tressa certainly kills on her own turn 3 first. Except... yes, silence. So now Lemina wins on turn 5. Tressa can do 2375 with 4x Tradewinds, 5x physical, which is enough even if she doesn't double.

Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3): Nash is durable enough to not be heal-locked, so he should be able to slug down a robot.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4): Alena doesn't like those counters much, she basically needs to kill in two attacks or Umi gets four attacks of his own in, which are too much. NES might be able to pull this off, but I don't vote on that.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger): Was mostly going to agree with Random, then I ran the numbers and noticed that Umimaru misses the 3HKO on Crono's physical durability. Oops. Crono does have a 5-4 and a 5HKO.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening): Umi probably just wants to charge and, combined with counters, surely wins on his third turn... but no Cherche also wins on her third turn and is faster. So she needs to survive one cannon and two counters... or, no, actually, because Umi can attack on his second turn (if Cherche refuses to attack, he charges instead), so Cherche needs to survive one Cannon and three physicals. Which... she clearly does as a Wyvern and clearly doesn't do as a Griffin. Well. Abstain I guess.

Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad): Think so?
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon): Miranda does not typically win against anyone this durable.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Bart (Xenogears): 2HKO cannon does its thing.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X): Here too? Kimahri can't get an overdrive in time.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4): Some sort of instant death.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2): Outslugs.

Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3): Hmmm... Nash's luck is horrendous, and Hilda does win with a hit+crit, or just a crit if it's on an attack made after Nash himself attacks. I... think that probably happens before Nash can kill? He 5HKOs (barely 4HKO on paper but one attack will be Apocalypitic Flame which lwers him to 5), so he'll have to find three extra attacks in there, which is a pain since any attack Hilda lands both brave hits is one he needs to heal on immediately.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4): Think so. Alena doubling makes for some scary high offence, Hilda gets 2RKOed, and probably doesn't even counter the second.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics): Hilda just doesn't have the type of offence Panette has, giving Mel shield evade and weapon breaks more time to make her miserable.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger): 3HKOs, isn't 2HKOed.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. [h]Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)[/b]: Similar but better.

Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad): Probably.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon): I was all ready to hype Miranda tanking a hit and winning with magic but nah Hilda can just have a Hand Axe equipped to start and that + Brave Axe kills.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Bart (Xenogears): Nope.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X): Nope.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4): Probably quads. Probably wards off one Crash due to big strength. Could be argued.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2): 2HKOs first. ORKO might even be possible but no need to math that out.

Umimaru 7-3
Tressa 6-5
Bowser 5-6
Hilda 5-6
Panette 5-6
Hughette 4-7
« Last Edit: May 22, 2023, 03:51:21 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2023, 06:11:01 AM »
Voting Combo Brawler because it's the better-performing of the two here.

Pugilist(Combo Brawler) (EO5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - So, Silent Lake isn't doing much help here.  One-Two will likely land two binds by turn 2, all of which are...not great for Nash (Head will disable casting, Arm cuts his damage in half, Leg cuts his speed down), on top of just plain enabling Leading Blow.  Blessing makes it so that Nash needs four turns, not three, to kill and is a non-action.  Technically Silent Lake could stop that, but he's using a turn to stop something that doesn't even take an action. - putting this on hold for now while I re-evaluate
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - interesting bit of damage racing.  Alena outspeeds, but will probably need three turns to kill even with crits thanks to the one shot of Blessing--assuming Arm Bind and Leg Bind from One-Two don't land before then.  Those will halve her damage, and more notably, her speed.  Buuuuut even with two binds by turn 2, Pugilist will probably miss the kill with Leading Blow.  There's too much RNG here for this to be in Combo Brawler's favor, so Alena gets the win for me.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Hellcry shuts down EO characters forever.  To add insult to injury, she's got access to a blocker for Arm Bind.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Not allowing Vigil Hat's blanket status immunity - I'm cracking down a bit more on universally available blanket status blockers, especially when they don't really come at much of a cost by my interps.  Crono 3HKOs but Blessing will make that need to be 4HKO - and two binds are statistically going to land on Pugilist's second turn.  Either Head+Arm which leaves Crono helpless, or either+Leg which could likely delay Crono to where Pugilist will get their third before Crono gets his fourth.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - I am not recalculating averages to discount the C24 Brave Weapon Shop for a single match.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - I'm pretty sure Adachi blocks disables here, Combo Brawler is SOL with just average physical damage to rely on.

Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Not Combo Brawler's matchup, I feel.  Danette can just pile on too much too quickly thanks to Enliven and counters.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - I'm pretty sure One-Two will kill in two rounds.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Pugilist has a notable accuracy and speed edge before anything else.  Even if Bart gets his full evade game up, Combo Brawler will still have a 50% chance to hit due to their raw accuracy and they'll have landed at least one bind.  Leg Bind, to add insult to injury, disables evade entirely, so once that lands, Bart's getting the crap beaten out of him without remorse.  Also those turns setting up his evade game mean that he's not doing damage.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - In theory, Leg Bind could disable E+C.  Too bad Low Blow has to *hit* in order to do that.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Wins the quickdraw, Arm Crusher does double duty of disabling Crush and kneecapping Gryz's damage.  It's a massacre from there.
Pugilist(CB) (EO5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - Concussion will land Head Bind before she gets two shots, and One-Two both goes first and 2HKOs.  She needs three shots due to Blessing anyway.

5-5 with one abstain and one re-evaluation.  Feels solidly M/H borderline.

[EDIT] Special Guest Write-In: Ninja(EON)!

Ninja(EON) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - Nash isn't blocking Confuse or Petrify.  The latter will still land before he kills and just leave him open to Drawing Slice execution.
Ninja(EON) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - Alena resists the hell out of Confuse at least, and she would technically go first.  Diversion Gambit is menu-level initiative and thus outspeeds Alena's first turn, so she now has to try and hit through 90% evade for the first three turns.  Izuna or Daggers will land its status, and Ninja can delay that to time with the end of DG, allowing for a Drawing Slice execution.
Ninja(EON) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - This one's interesting - if Meliadoul gets a single turn where she can use skills, she has an extremely good chance of winning, since the only damage Ninja can put out after Hellcry is Toxic Mist.  Meliadoul can (and will have to) set up to block Sleep and Petrify at the cost of her evasion, preventing any executions.  If Panic doesn't land the first turn, Ninja's SOL.  Assuming it does (I'm willing to let 71% barely hit turn 1 nowadays), Ninja gets about 3-4 turns where Meliadoul is alternating hitting them and herself.

And the clones will come out here.  The initial clones from full can barely survive a basic attack, so either Melia whacks the original turn 1 or hits one of the two turn 2.  Either way, we've got two clones with 81 TP and weapon intact, but at least one at risk of being splatted in the next attack.  If she's attacked Ninja twice in her confusion by now, she's killed a clone and likely has sealed a win, but that's fairly unlikely.

Both clone again in the next round, leaving four with 36 TP.  Now, this could go two ways - if Meliadoul attacks herself on this turn, she loses, as two clone the next round and Drawing Slice is guaranteed to kill in one attack after that.  If she doesn't break confuse on this turn, she also loses, as it is increasingly unlikely she could have precise enough targeting to single out a single 36 TP clone.  If she breaks confusion this round and kills a clone...there's three on the field, but only one can divide safely, and Accumulative Resistance would have kicked in, requiring three shots of Ninpo:Panic to get her back in a confused state.  If they do that, Ninja runs out of gas and doesn't have enough TP to kill.  If two of the three survivors clone, Meliadoul kills the one that doesn't.  If one clones, Meliadoul kills one of the two that doesn't.  In short, she gets a slow but sure win in this case...but there's enough ifs leading up to that branch that I'm going to say Ninja wins this more often than not.  Probably like a 55-45 or 60-40 but it's a close one.  Was not expecting this in a Proving Grounds.

Ninja(EON) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - If you do allow Vigil Hat to block CT statuses...Crono is still in for an uphill battle.  EO evade is strong and Crono's going to be trying to punch through 90% of it for his first four attacks.  Vigil Hat does *not* cover Petrify, as well, so Izuna will just screw him.
Ninja(EON) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Goes first, lands Panic or Sleep without eating counters, wins.  Can use Diversion Gambit to add insult to injury, even.
Ninja(EON) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) - Adachi fucking up all of Ninja's day.

Ninja(EON) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Goes first, lands Panic or Sleep, murders.  Could even throw on Diversion Gambit to avoid counters if Ninpo:Panic would provoke them.
Ninja(EON) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - Doesn't immune sleep, lol.
Ninja(EON) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - Bart is fairly outmatched here.  His evade game is debatable considering Ninja's accuracy rating, and even if you assume that WS+BC would take Ninja's accuracy to 0 anyway, well...it's rough for him.  Even giving him multi-blockers, he has to pick between Physical and Mental.  Physical blocker means he gets hit with Panic, which utterly destroys his evasion game anyway and leaves him open to Sleep and Drawing Strike splortching.  Mental blocker means he's trying to damage race Toxic Mist, which *will* kill in three turns.  If he's doing that, he *can't* set up the evade game, which means Hawk Strike plus Poison Mist takes him down in two turns.  And he can't 2HKO Ninja.
Ninja(EON) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - In theory, Kimahri could give himself resistance to one of Ninja's many statuses.  Stoneproof would block Izuna if E+C didn't.  On the other hand, Ninpo:Toxic Mist has a base rate of 1000%, Daggers is functionally MT, Hawk Strike is a focusing RT, and Panic Exists.  Kimahri fails one way or another.
Ninja(EON) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - Oh.  Ninja's got below-average DEF and Gryz can make most of the Ninja's disables turn 2 via Psy-Mail.  But Crash is single-target and Double has no real cost.  On the other hand, after a few doubles one could argue a Sweeping would take Ninja out.  Ninja really wishes I would Yamikei Clause in the deathblocker.
Ninja(EON) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - Lemina is fighting with either status or just getting cut down from behind 90% evade.

10-2.  I've definitely underranked Ninja, they're a Heavy.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 02:38:50 AM by 074 »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2023, 06:55:57 AM »
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Yeah, a healthy evade rate is a pretty strong tiebreaker in Nash's favor.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Alena doesn't look that close to killing with a double, even if she gets a crit or two in her string (which is less interesting than normal due to Panette's below-average defense, so defense-piercing isn't as useful).  So yeah, she needs evasion, and Panette isn't THAT inaccurate.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
I guess I'm willing to spot Panette some spare weapons, and agree that letting Divine Sword double is a bit sus.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Re Elf, don't think Crono will even face a counter, Panette is getting disarmed by a sword (unless KATANAS AREN'T SWORDS).
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Yeah, Cherche is really tanky and goes first from higher move.  And her Brave Axe should do even more damage than usual from Panette's weak defense.  Greataxe can't be used on Panette's turn without getting massacred.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)
Phys resist is nice, but Adachi really cannot take high-powered offense.

Panette (FE Engage) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
OHKO'd, yeah.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hmm, what Overdrive mode is getting Kimahri OD?  He should lose if he has to actually attack into Panette's counters.  EDIT: Ally it is.  Ah well, Kimahri's a little less interesting when he can't be spoiled by counterattacks, but so it goes.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Her tricks are worthless here.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
I think NES Alena just BARELY misses a 2HKO with no crits, but her crit rate is also pretty high at stat topic levels (Level%, so 36-40% or so).  Hughette takes a long while to kill the suspiciously tanky Alena, though, and if Alena is given any TB speed credit for double turns, Hughette is in deep.  TS blind isn't quite ironclad to my recollection, either.  Shadowswitching is an option, but meh.  Clearly a coinflippy match but one that favors Alena IMO.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Both blind & shadowstiching arrow aren't very helpful here, so Hughette's only shot is to hope that Mighty Sword flat can't be used like it would be against human opponents who've already had all their stuff broken.  Not inclined to really hype that unless it's also allowed for Meliadoul to ruin Hughette's stats though.
Gonna assume weapon break would just send Hughette
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Don't think TS Blind works vs. magic.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Okay, Immobilize Arrow does its work here, she just has to survive a single Cherche turn.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)
Being slightly below average speed kind of ruins her argument to win a slugfest here.  Ah, the DL, where 99% spd and 101% spd are very different.

Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Hughette lets Miranda transform, which is a bad strategy, but at least forces her to transform on turn 2 rather than building even more SP.  Just...  White Silver Dragon + Star Children + Attack doesn't seem like it KOs the Legend of Dragoon killpoint?  Hell, not even with another attack thrown in there.  Wow, Miranda is worse than I thought if so, she gets to pull her game off and it doesn't even matter.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Focus for overkill Hit actually gives Hughette some game here...  but her hit rate is probably still very bad even with Focus.  Maybe if she was 101% spd and could get an initial free hit on Bart!
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Maybe Sights Set would be able to hit Kimarhi?  No counters though, so.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)
2HKOs first.


Tressa (Octopath) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Multiple hits for Sidestep, better healing game, Tressa doesn't even threaten a OHKO..
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Multiple hits for Sidestep.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
While Sidestep is flavored as evasion, I'd be inclined to see it more like an attack-nulling shield, since 8PT has an accuracy / evasion system and other attacks that ignore evade that don't penetrate Sidestep.  So...  Sidestep cheese wins the day.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Should win the magical slugfest.  Although...  I guess
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Brave Axe double-hits, although wind DOES hit weakness on FE fliers...  and Tressa probably doubles with her default equips, although the nature of the BP system makes letting the boosted attacks double is a little wacky.  She definitely shouldn't double if she equips a magic spear, though.  Depends on how exactly the damage amplification works.  2x Tradewinds with the second one boosted is 1215 8PT damage to a 2480 kill point, so about half average durability, but Cherche is only 0.8-0.83 MDur, so Tressa might yet have this kill.  For arrows, that'd be an easy yes, but Wind tomes tend to be a bit lower Mt in-game, so...  close one.  You know, what the hell, I'll give it to Tressa for now.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)
No ID blocking, Tressa's game is too slow here.

Tressa (Octopath) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Sidestep spam again?  I guess if Miranda goes first she can at least transform and get some stuff done that way, but she'll never connect with an arrow again afterward, and her damage problems will get Rest'd off after she runs out of MP.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Black Snake strats?  Halving magic damage means it's going to take Tressa ages to smash through Bart, and multi-hit strings should mean he wins the slugfest.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Gonna presume Tressa builds up BP before Kimahri can OD and status her out, although this will take two Bifelgan's Bounties to put away or something.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)
Tressa has 1.08 Elemental durability...  2x Catastrophe does 1.15 MDur damage.  And she sure isn't 2HKOing here.  Yeowch.
EDIT: But right, Hang Tough can maybe swing this one.  Lemina can YOLO go for Silence which is devastating to Tressa, though...  hrmm.  And I don't think Lemina is 2HKO'd, so she'll get two shots.  Gonna stand on the vote as is.

Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Defense-ignoring crits are a good start vs. Umimaru.  NES Alena's good durability means it's gonna take Umimaru awhile to put Alena away, giving her time to get enough critz in.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
I'll buy Random's argument.  Lightning is pretty clearly Green in Brig2.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)
Heat Riser strats time?  This is a pathetic slapfest as they're both not at their best here, but Adachi will probably survive to do a full Power Charge'd, Heat Riser'd attack.  I...  don't think that kills anyway, though.

Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Miranda runs out of MP, even if given a "nice" damage average.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Yep, spoils evade strats.
Umimaru (Brigandine 2) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
An opening quad from Alena puts Hilda in too deep a hole, despite ramming into counterattacks.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Too tanky.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Yep.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
I'm not sure Hilda wins even if she connects with everything.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)
Yep, see Random.  Better to have high offense vs. a buffer like Adachi to shut him down fast, although realistically he's just fishing for ID here..

Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
0.94 MDur means that Miranda can at least think about getting a kill here, but even the nicer damage average looks like 0.86 damage.  I think this is giving Hilda too much time after the full heal.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)[/size]

Panette: 5-5
Hughette: 3-7
Tressa: 4-6
Umimaru: 7-3
Hilda: 2-8
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 07:38:16 AM by SnowFire »

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2023, 07:48:28 AM »
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - while I usually wouldn’t hold multi swing physicals from stuff like FF1 against Killia’s revenge gain, S3 swings are a lot more discrete and can even retarget mid attack under some circumstances, so I think he’s just giving Killia his Overload overkill damage here.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - D5 evade being great for off setting those close slugfests.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - oh wow, Killia does not like weapon breaking…
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - more tiebreaking slugfests with great evasion.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Avidya to avoid counters is a good strategy I wouldn’t have considered, but yeah. That would do it.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - outpaces her damage, evasion just makes it more clean cut.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon) - I need to reevaluate how I even see LoD mages…
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - I’d allow Killia to equip the Evility to block the status, but I’m not sure it even matters…
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - the flip side of D5 evasion being so good is that everything that’s not explicitly ITE is pretty evadable. E&C is busted.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4) - No Evility to block Crash. RIP.
Killia (Disgaea 5) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2) - standard “Lemina vs Low Heavy” result.


Panette (FE Engage) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - feels like Alena is proccing extra counters here.
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - sure I’ll bite what Elf is offering
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - Disarm hype vs Engage characters? Are we down with Disarm infliction hype vs characters with counters from other games? I know I am!
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Panette (FE Engage) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - oh no, an axe to the face, my only weakness!
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Bart (Xenogears) - oddly similar to the Killia matchup
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - here too
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)


Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - Danette takes 30% less damage from Ranged units, but loses a staggering 50% damage against Mounted Fliers. Combined with Hughette being able to avoid counters and hold Danette in place? Probably Hughette’s best match.
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Hughette (Triangle Strategy) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2023, 08:03:07 AM »
On mobile, so two posts!

Tressa (Octopath) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - I think even with my generous interp allowing Tressa one shot of Veteran Soldier, she’s running into issues against Nash evade and damage.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - but I think she takes this one.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - it also spoils equipment breaking.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - out speed and one shot?
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - out speed and weapon triangle advantage! Or just use Bows.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Tressa (Octopath) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - one shots
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X) - uses Cleric instead for Magic damage… Kimahri sucks without spoiling.
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Tressa (Octopath) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

Maybe I’m being too generous? Then again, watching an Octopath speedrun gives you mad Tressa Hired Help respect.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2023, 08:09:37 AM »
Mobile still, triple posts. Please forgive.

Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3) - accuracy issues for Hilda
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4) - same
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) - lots of weapons you need to break there, Mellie.
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger) - doesn’t play well with Magic damage
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening) - I… think. General big damage respect for Hilda.

Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad) - poor Danette’s weakness to axe girls here
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Bart (Xenogears)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)
Hilda (FE 3 Houses) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2023, 04:42:04 PM »
Panette (FE Engage) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad): Danette did not need the -50 damage vs. axewomen here, she 4HKOs with melee or 5HKOs with ranged, meanwhile Panette just 2HKOs as always.

Aren't the only axewomen in SN fliers?  That feels far more material here and we've been through before this with Danette vs. Clive.  Not that this even matters because Pannette is doubled by average, goes second and can't counter sword users, which Danette is.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2023, 04:58:11 PM by Random Consonant »

DragonKnight Zero

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2023, 11:30:49 PM »
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)  Believe so.  Flame Shield to nullify nearly all of Wilbell's damage.  Break armor, break weapon, break accessory if applicable.  If Wilbell is still standing after all that, Melly will most likely get two physicals in the time it takes for Wilbell to refresh Element Call.  Meliadoul's physical durability is such I see her still standing after a limit.
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)  Has the speed to get off 2 Luminaires before Wilbell can get her defensive game going.
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Bart (Xenogears)  Think so.  Bart's anti-physical tricks aren't much use against someone with mostly magical offense.
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)  Feels right.  Lancet does horrible things to Wilbell's MP but she's getting at least two casts off before then.  Believe she can hold out until then even if forced to attack into Evade and Counter until her limit builds and it's death by meteors.  And her limit will build faster.  If one holds Lancet to ingame mechanics (where it doesn't affect enemy spellcasting at all), it's an even more clearcut smash.
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)  Crash lands first due to innate fire resistance.
Wilbell (Atelier Ayesha) vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)  Lemina needs to oneshot with Catastrophe to win and I don't think she has the punch for it.  Even with a first round silence landing, still thinks she loses the resulting slugfest.  Opening dragon summon from Wilbell takes out most of Lemina's HP and regular physicals if silenced still leave a mark on Lemina's low physical durability.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2023, 12:51:09 AM »
Aren't the only axewomen in SN fliers?  That feels far more material here and we've been through before this with Danette vs. Clive.  Not that this even matters because Pannette is doubled by average, goes second and can't counter sword users, which Danette is.

She's a sword user? Stat topic says she's a knife user, and her official art has her with a weapon I'd certainly consider more knife-like than sword-like. If she's a sword-user then she wins, yeah, but sure doesn't look like it to me.

(I admittedly had forgotten entirely about break and that certainly does mean Crono wins cleanly. Also means Meliadoul wins with basic physicals if she doubles, but checking things Mel is slower than I thought, so no dice.)

Otherwise, you're welcome to put in your own interpretation of how to interpret Soul Nomad class types in the stat topic, because otherwise I certainly am not going to remember what you said in some other random match several years ago. Can you link to the previous discussion/arguments if any?

Quote
Hmm, what Overdrive mode is getting Kimahri OD?  He should lose if he has to actually attack into Panette's counters.

The poorly-named Ally overdrive mode gives 12% OD per turn, or 4% without triple overdrive. Since Panette has literally zero way past E&C ever, though, the amount doesn't matter here.

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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2023, 03:15:09 AM »
https://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=6834.0 is the thread where said match happened, which basically boils down to "flying in SN beats melee infantry defensively so trying to apply that reasoning to non-fliers just because they use the same weapon isn't actually sound" which I'm not sure necessitates its own "here is what Random thinks about SN type matches in general" when we have two SN stat topics and the other one lists type matches by class as is because that part is one of the few bits outside of the whole melee > archer > mage triangle that's actually somewhat consistant and my point is more that "axewomen" is about as meaningful in this context as "birdwomen" in that they're both completely arbitrary classifications used to fit a square peg into a round hole and that "melee flyer" is a more generally useful tool for that purpose.  Especially since it would be mostly a rant about how using arbitrarily defined attack types is crap since that isn't even how it works for starters and SN isn't greatly consistant even with classes that openly do use the same weapon type along with a bunch of ???s every time some round peg comes along to screw with things.  If it were that easy to come up with a simple method that actually reflects how the game works one of us would've already done it years ago.

As an aside we wouldn't even be having this conversation if every SN non-monster class wasn't gendered so I'd also object to having that particular layer of stupidity around to trip people up.

Anyways Danette's weapon is refered to as a sword in the one cutscene it's actually mentioned, the fact that it looks more sword-like than knife-like from my recollection, and she her overall type matches are closer to swordsmen/Reyva than they are to bandits which is what I was basing the sword assumtion out of, I wasn't looking at what either stat topic labelled it as.  If it actually is a knife then well lol I've been wasting my time here but absent any real mechanical backing I'm going with what I know here.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 03:53:54 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2023, 04:50:48 AM »
Looking at things some more I am definitely inclined to agree with you that gendering the type matchups is just kinda weird and whirlwins really belong as a "flying axe" rather than "woman axe" so that leaves Redflank as the melee axe, and Penette certainly fits that better.

On the other hand looking more closely at the stat topic also kinda reaffirms that Danette is a knife-user to me, she even shares an attack with bandits called Knife Throw. I suppose you could argue she's sword for melee and knife for ranged but I'm not inclined to do so myself.

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2023, 12:06:55 PM »
Hughette vs Meliadoul: Even allowing weapon break, Meliadoul has zero follow up after that. I don’t normally consider kiting strats but it’s applicable in both games systems and is a real disadvantage for Meliadoul in game/a big advantage for Hughette in game. Even if by some miracle Meliadoul closes in every so often, she is likely going to be blinded and have terrible accuracy.
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DragonKnight Zero

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Re: Proving Grounds: Turtle & Tyrant Overlords vs. High Middle
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2023, 06:47:10 AM »
Write in time;

XX vs. Nash Latkje (Suikoden 3)
XX vs. Alena (Dragon Quest 4)
PSP Meliadoul vs. Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics)  Oh hell no, I'm not going to try to work out who lands the first weapon break.
PSP Meliadoul vs. Crono (Chrono Trigger)  Rubber Shoes and weapon break.  I don't think PSP Meliadoul changes anything about this match.
XX vs. Cherche (Fire Emblem Awakening)
XX vs. Adachi (Persona 4)

XX vs. Danette (Soul Nomad)
XX vs. Miranda (Legend of Dragoon)
PSP Meliadoul vs. Bart (Xenogears)  Surely.  Can't evade Unyielding Blade.
PSP Meliadoul vs. Kimahri (Final Fantasy X)  weapon break again
PSP Meliadoul vs. Gryz (Phantasy Star 4)  Angel Ring to stop instant death.  Break weapon and Gryz can do nothing.
PSP Meliadoul vs. Lemina (Lunar 2)  A case where the PSP buffs make a difference.  Lemina had an argument for going in without gear before as it doesn't influence her spellcasting that much.  That will not fly on the PSP incarnation and Melly's damage is significantly higher so will land the killshot first.