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Author Topic: Proving Grounds Heavy: KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM  (Read 831 times)

SnowFire

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Proving Grounds Heavy: KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM
« on: February 23, 2020, 07:08:46 AM »
Been pretty quiet lately here, so eh, some excuse for some 3H duelers to show off.

* Dimitri (Fire Emblem Three Houses) - Kill one of them in particular with Atrocity and excellent turn 1 evade.

* Claude (Fire Emblem Three Houses) - Kills somewhat more slowly than Dimitri, but a turn of perfect evade, longer range counters, and amazing movement / threat range is always scary.

* Erik (Dragon Quest 11) - Speedy glass cannon.  Not much of a personality but who needs that when you hit someone with 6 swords.

* Ceodore (FF4 TAY) - Annoying spoily game #28, with Blink & Reflect to cover his bases.

* Celes (Final Fantasy 6) - Dhyer did a new stat topic which I don't think changes that much, but maybe worth finding out, especially for people who deny Celes's later spells.  Low Godlike, High Heavy, or Low Heavy?

Dimitri vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Dimitri vs. Terra (FF6)
Dimitri vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Dimitri vs. Raquel (WA4)

Dimitri vs. Scias (BoF4)
Dimitri vs. Lenus (LoD)
Dimitri vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Dimitri vs. Justin (Grandia)

Dimitri vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Dimitri vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Dimitri vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Dimitri vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)


Claude vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Claude vs. Terra (FF6)
Claude vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Claude vs. Raquel (WA4)

Claude vs. Scias (BoF4)
Claude vs. Lenus (LoD)
Claude vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Claude vs. Justin (Grandia)

Claude vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Claude vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Claude vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Claude vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)


Ceodore vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Ceodore vs. Terra (FF6)
Ceodore vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Ceodore vs. Raquel (WA4)

Ceodore vs. Scias (BoF4)
Ceodore vs. Lenus (LoD)
Ceodore vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Ceodore vs. Justin (Grandia)

Ceodore vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Ceodore vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Ceodore vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Ceodore vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)


Erik vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Erik vs. Terra (FF6)
Erik vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Erik vs. Raquel (WA4)

Erik vs. Scias (BoF4)
Erik vs. Lenus (LoD)
Erik vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Erik vs. Justin (Grandia)

Erik vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Erik vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Erik vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Erik vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)


Celes vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Celes vs. Terra (FF6)
Celes vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Celes vs. Raquel (WA4)

Celes vs. Scias (BoF4)
Celes vs. Lenus (LoD)
Celes vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Celes vs. Justin (Grandia)

Celes vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Celes vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Celes vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Celes vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)


(Copy, find, & replace this to make your own set for obscura!)

XX vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
XX vs. Terra (FF6)
XX vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
XX vs. Raquel (WA4)

XX vs. Scias (BoF4)
XX vs. Lenus (LoD)
XX vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
XX vs. Justin (Grandia)

XX vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
XX vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
XX vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
XX vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2020, 09:53:02 AM »
Dimitri vs. Terra (FF6) - Putting aside the question of how I feel about Break, Dimitri doesn't one-round and unlike previous FEs, physical and magical evasion are seperate things and his magic evasion isn't quite as good (and are we even sure 3H uses the old true hit method?).  Considering Terra does have some evade herself, I feel this makes Drain+Fire3 2HKO plausible enough.  Could be argued on this however.
Dimitri vs. Monk (Bravely Default) - Ah, no.
Dimitri vs. Raquel (WA4) - Swordbreaker isn't quite as nuts as its previous versions... but it probably doesn't help Raquel's case any.
Dimitri vs. Scias (BoF4) - Oh look, someone Dimitri can one-round.
Dimitri vs. Lenus (LoD) - Pretty sure he gets his face slammed by the limit.
Dimitri vs. Red (Saga Frontier) - Faster, Re-Al Phoenix says hi.
Dimitri vs. Justin (Grandia) - Go away, Justin.
Dimitri vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8) - Better.
Dimitri vs. Yosuke (Persona 4) - Not really Yosuke's sort of fight.
Dimitri vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) - Think so. 
Dimitri vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel) - The evasion game's probably a bit too strong and Dimitri does not like that low risk of Seal floating around.

7-4.  Some of these are arguable but the noted strong boy is pretty good.

Claude vs. Terra (FF6) - Yep.
Claude vs. Monk (Bravely Default) - If I'm to take the view that every attack in a brave chain is individually counterable I'm probably not going to see Fallen Star as stuffing the whole thing but honestly this is irrelevent as Elfboy notes.
Claude vs. Raquel (WA4) - A bit too much gambling there.
Claude vs. Scias (BoF4) - Unlike Elfboy I'm not inclined to use Charm for status defense (rattled is very much under the "attached to damage" clause) but since Scias's status shouldn't be turn 1 regardless this is irrelevent here.
Claude vs. Lenus (LoD)
Claude vs. Red (Saga Frontier) - It's not like 3H has ITE to know for sure.  Avoid all attacks in a given round of combat makes it functionally identical to SRW Alert cheese but yeah if you restrict Fallen Star to OPB then that's not enough regardless.
Claude vs. Justin (Grandia) - Get out, Justin.
Claude vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8) - Enclosed within is one (1) prince who ended up picking a fight he couldn't win.
Claude vs. Yosuke (Persona 4) - 3H isn't other FE games and being a flyer doesn't automatically mean weak to wind (never mind that nothing stops Claude from entering dismounted anyways) and considering how disinclined I am to see nuPersona AGI as relevent for turn order ever, there's... really not a whole lot Yosuke can actually -do- here.
Claude vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) - Not inclined to respect sleep spam cheesing out.
Claude vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel) - Has the superior evasion strats.

6-5.  Similar to strong boy Dimitri indeed.

Ceodore vs. Terra (FF6) - Drain isn't reflectable IIRC and Ceo's own damage sucks ass here.
Ceodore vs. Monk (Bravely Default) - Anti-physical game too strong here.
Ceodore vs. Raquel (WA4) - I'm not willing to hype TAY evasion -that- much.
Ceodore vs. Scias (BoF4)
Ceodore vs. Lenus (LoD) - I'll bite.
Ceodore vs. Red (Saga Frontier) - Re-Al Phoenix is too much again.
Ceodore vs. Justin (Grandia)
Ceodore vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8) - Highly anti-physical.
Ceodore vs. Yosuke (Persona 4) - Pretty much makes an open mockery of everything in Yosuke's skillset.
Ceodore vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Ceodore vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel) - Well they both can make the other's life miserable, but Ceo can heal and Sara's evade game is kind of dependant on having CP.

8-3.  Well that's sure a lot of evadeable physical fighters.

Celes vs. Terra (FF6)
Celes vs. Monk (Bravely Default) - Imp!  Pal!  Buddy!
Celes vs. Raquel (WA4)
Celes vs. Scias (BoF4)
Celes vs. Lenus (LoD) - Nope nope nope not seeing ff6 poizn as dark today.
Celes vs. Red (Saga Frontier) - I guess these have been some assuming no Vanish votes.
Celes vs. Justin (Grandia)
Celes vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Celes vs. Yosuke (Persona 4) - Yosuke's terrible luck strikes again.
Celes vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) - No Imp this time, but she has other statuses, sleep isn't enough.
Celes vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel) - CS2 has pretty much any blocker you could want... except transform.

8-3.  Also a lot of people who don't block transform.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 09:45:25 PM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2020, 05:21:30 PM »
Dimitri vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3): I don't think Dimitri winning this is totally crazy... but probably not. Luther lands something accurate to lower tha evade, then does horrible things, and I have a lot of respect for his speed.
Dimitri vs. Terra (FF6): Dimitri's turn 1 evade is just over 50% even using magic, I believe... but if that goes his away we can assume many other things won't. If Terra hits with her first Drain then Dimitri's in loads of trouble, if she misses then Dimitri can just try to 2RKO. Dimitri needs to land 6 out of 8 hits to do that, and that's... kinda dicey.
Dimitri vs. Monk (Bravely Default): Faster, 2RKOs. Monk needs to hit all four shots of Qigong Wave to kill Dimitri and that ain't happenin'.
Dimitri vs. Raquel (WA4): Raquel's parry and counter bullshit is probably really annoying for Dimitri, but then she has trouble hitting him too... oh wait, Swordbreaker. Yeah you don't want to use swords against Dimitri.
Dimitri vs. Scias (BoF4): Yeah you don't want to use swords against Dimitri.
Dimitri vs. Lenus (LoD): Dimitri can... probably 3RKO while only triggering the limit turn 2, and Lenus' opening Boomerang will probably miss. But Lenus' limit will probably hit 2/2 (especially since it's magic) and that kills Dimitri.
Dimitri vs. Red (Saga Frontier): Ranged ITE is what you want, here.
Dimitri vs. Justin (Grandia): More foolish sword-users.
Dimitri vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8): Dimitri doubles here, which more than offsets Ephraim's superior base damage. They have similar pdur and evasion overall, so I think the doubling makes the difference.
Dimitri vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG): I'm pretty sure I use charm as the defensive stat for status in this game (Silence doesn't check it, but IIRC enemies never use that, so the main status to defend is Rattle). Which probably saves Dimitri here, since Toadstool's best strategy is repeatedly sleep->heal->attack (if you see that not triggering counters), but one miss and she's dead.


Claude vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3): Again, just too much respect for Luther's limit-mode speed here. He doubles nearly constantly to me, which crimps even a well-timed Fallen Star.
Claude vs. Terra (FF6): Claude can barely 2RKO with Fallen Star -> Brave Bow x4... except one hit is gonna miss, so nope, Terra gets two turns, and one won't be evaded. The turn Fallen Star IS active, she'll use for Cure 2, so honestly that's kinda wasted. Never mind Fallen Star then, Claude just goes for 2RKOing. Terra... actually by the old topic she OHKOs with Fire 3, might miss with Dhyer's which uses higher MDef, but still Drain + Fire 3 works and his magic evade is likely to go 0/2.
Claude vs. Monk (Bravely Default): Fallen Star -> kill works here. If Fallen Star totally spoils one brave-chain then this is a joke, but even if it only gets one, Claude is likely to evade at least one time in four and Qigong only 3HKOs.
Claude vs. Raquel (WA4): Fallen Star/Encloser spam? Very dicy since Raquel has hella evade and Moonlight ensures that letting Encloser slip once is bad. If going for direct offence, Claude needs 8 Brave Bow hits (he quads) and a Fallen Star. The Brave Bow offence needs about five turns of trying... maybe less with counters though? Raquel 2HKOs with some reliability once she's not being locked down. Neither strategy seems to work for Claude.
Claude vs. Scias (BoF4): More traditional Claude style of win. Alert Stance lets him essentially strike first (even if threat range doesn't), and he can 2HKO while nothing Scias can do in one turn is decisive (sleep misses due to charm, damage doesn't OHKO, healing is a lock).
Claude vs. Lenus (LoD): Even carefully chipping, Claude can't just Fallen Star -> Brave Bow through the limit range. He can Brave Bow twice but then the turn in the middle leaves him very dead.
Claude vs. Red (Saga Frontier): Does Fallen Star work on ITE? It doesn't matter here because Fallen Star + Brave Bow doesn't 2RKO anyway.
Claude vs. Justin (Grandia): Hold a grudge if you must.
Claude vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8): Encloser is probably aces here. Strategy in motion.
Claude vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG): See Dimitri's match.


Ceodore vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3): Yeah no.
Ceodore vs. Terra (FF6): Drain going through Reflect mostly ruins Ceodore's plans. Still, she doesn't have a good way of putting him away, between Blink and his elemental resistance. This fight will only end when one of them runs out of MP... ugh. Let's go into detail.

Ceodore shouldn't cast Haste, because Dispel costs the same MP and Terra has a higher raw total. Unless he casts Reflect, but that's shaky too. Their healing have comparable number of uses. Terra 3HKOs with physicals... but that needs Morph, which will run out in a long fight. So 4HKO with unmorphed physical x3 + Morph to finish. Ceodore needs to switch to a non-elemental weapon and thus 5HKOs himself, while facing evade. He can use Blink to ward off two physicals instead of healing to ward off three, which saves MP but wastes turns... too many, for sure. Terra needing to use MP less often is decisive, as these types of fights often are; Ceodore's slight speed advantage helps but isn't enough.

Ceodore vs. Monk (Bravely Default): Blink wards off a ORKO from Monk, at least short term. Monk can't just punch once because Ceodore is faster and has the MP to spam Blink until he doubles. So instead Monk tries to get 2 BP so he can Qigong x7 over two turns, which Ceodore has no answer to. Ceodore gets three extra turns before that happens after his opening Blink. Does he 3HKO? Looks like he does.
Ceodore vs. Raquel (WA4): Raquel sure hates Blink, although she can Moonlight three times then Intrude past it. That's a lot of turns to give Ceodore, but unlike Monk he doesn't have a quick kill in the meantime. Ceodore gets five turns after his opening Blink, but he can't kill in five or even close (i.e. I don't think Haste helps either).
Ceodore vs. Scias (BoF4): Scias is... fractionally faster to me, but Ceodore's ice resist means he only 3HKOs. Ceodore also 3HKOs. I think Scias wants to use Sleep here... in fact against the slower, Sleep->Disembowel->kill seems safe... unless Ceodore is hasted, which will stop that strategy. So yeah, I think opening Haste puts this out of reach for Scias. Ceodore can spam Blink to prevent a cheesy Rakshasa death, as well.
Ceodore vs. Lenus (LoD): Setting up Haste/Reflect seems good? MT spells go through Reflect, though. Double Black Rain will hurt, but not kill. So the strategy is to Haste/Blink, chip Lenus to just above 60%, add on Reflect, use Awakening, then smash through. Should work.
Ceodore vs. Red (Saga Frontier): There's a case for Re-Al ignoring Blink but I'm not inclined to buy it.
Ceodore vs. Justin (Grandia): More Blink hype.
Ceodore vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8): And again.
Ceodore vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG): Don't think Toadstool has a way to tilt the fight her way, while Ceodore of course does.


Celes vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Celes vs. Terra (FF6): Celes is fater and has status options. Terra's only hope is to use White Cape + Peace Ring to make this a status-free fight, but Haste/Safe still tilt things pretty far to Celes' side. Just... Drain's a big problem. In fact an insurmountable one. Funny, I always used to vote the other way back when "only one statusblocker" was a thing.
Celes vs. Monk (Bravely Default): lol
Celes vs. Raquel (WA4): Imp time.
Celes vs. Scias (BoF4): Even if Scias is seen as slowing all the status, he can't stop it, and he needs to.
Celes vs. Lenus (LoD): I'm inclined to see the Minerva as halving dark (if you don't, Lenus has this for sure), but yikes, Dark Mist x2 is still brutal and Celes has no quick ways to end this. Lenus 2RKOs so even with Haste Celes is heal-locked.
Celes vs. Red (Saga Frontier): Safe reduces Red to a 3HKO, but Cure 1 isn't patching that up long-term. This would be one of those fights she wants Vanish for.
Celes vs. Justin (Grandia): Better status-slinger.
Celes vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8): And again.
Celes vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG): Muddle or Berserk + Safe (Toadstool's physical doesn't put on the pressure of Re-Al).

Ceodore 7-3
Celes 6-4
Dimitri 6-4
Claude 5-5

They're similar! Despite the fact that Ceodore did the best I actually kneejerk him the worst dueller here; I feel like he got some good matchups... but I might also be underrating him. You don't expect someone with a 3HKO, no status, and decent but no especially stellar stats to be borderline Godlike.

Among the opponents, Luther and Terra are Godlike, with Raquel/Lenus/Red putting up the next best showings, they're probably all near the border themselves. The rest all belong in Heavy.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 08:28:42 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2020, 08:02:09 PM »
Ceodore vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Ceodore vs. Terra (FF6)- Boy, what a slog of a fight. Ceodore will opt for Dragon Shield, tanking Terra's big damage. Ceodore will still have excellent evade. Terra halves Ceodore's best damage. Going with Ceodore though. He has more reliable free damage in this match and this drags out long enough that Terra will fall out of Morph.
Ceodore vs. Monk (Bravely Default)- Uh pass. BD skills don't check evade in game, except for 1 form of comprehensive evade. However, FF4TAY evade is comprehensive to what's in game for what enemies have (I think?)
Ceodore vs. Raquel (WA4)- Evasion war, but one side has healing
Ceodore vs. Scias (BoF4)- Scias has no solid damage options here since not ITE
Ceodore vs. Lenus (LoD)- Reflect should work here.
Ceodore vs. Red (Saga Frontier)- Too much ITE damage
Ceodore vs. Justin (Grandia)
Ceodore vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)- Despite Eph's sword evade, Ceodore has more evade + Image + Haste + Healing
Ceodore vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Ceodore vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)- Reflect + Evade should do it.
Ceodore vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)- I think. Dragon Shield ruins Sara's magic damage. She can buff and do some damage with Faint, but then she can't follow up for the kill.

Going straight off the topic for Erik since not quite at endgame
Erik vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Erik vs. Terra (FF6)- Divide + Critical Claim
Erik vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Erik vs. Raquel (WA4)
Erik vs. Scias (BoF4)- Can resist both Sleep and confuse, Divide + Fatal Slash
Erik vs. Lenus (LoD)
Erik vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Erik vs. Justin (Grandia)- Divide + Fatal Slash
Erik vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)- Unsure. Would need to see how some of Erik's status effectively plays out. Erik has to opt for trying to inflict Sleep due to Ephraim's sword evade.
Erik vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Erik vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)- Sleep res pushes it to turn 2, Silence won't help, Divide + Fatal Slash
Erik vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)- Erik can't resist Seal and Faint at the same time it looks like, plus Insight (and Erik can't OHKO with Divide -> Critical Claim)

So, for Maneater, I'm probably down to just giving it a 27% damage bonus (amount of endgame enemies than are Human)
Celes vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Celes vs. Terra (FF6)- So, Terra will opt to reduce Confuse. Celes scumming around for Imp takes way too long; she can Berserk Terra, but that makes Terra's best damage better at the cost of no Drain. So Terra I think.
Celes vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Celes vs. Raquel (WA4)
Celes vs. Scias (BoF4)- Drops to a non Ice weapon
Celes vs. Lenus (LoD)- No Darkness res
Celes vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Celes vs. Justin (Grandia)- Pass since I don't have updated numbers on Justin's ID with my current status scaling
Celes vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)- 2HKOs, Celes can't get enough Evade to get one of those attacks to miss
Celes vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)- Minerva means not having to think too much here
Celes vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)- Faster, one status will get through
Celes vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)- Sara Faint's Celes and then runs hard into Minerva nulling all her damage

Ceodore 9-2 (Really good defensive game!)
Erik 5-6 (A good number of nasty offensive tricks; will need to get a better handle on his status game)
Celes 2-9 (Well, spoiled Sara and beat a decent Middle)

Also interesting to see that Sara had two matches where she could land Faint and still didn't win because of bad magic draw
...into the nightfall.

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2020, 11:06:13 PM »
Somehow I manage to have failed to get at this for far too long...  ah well, time to fix that.


Dimitri vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
I guess I'm not as inclined as Elf to give Luther super-speed hype?  I dunno about going so far as seeing all ARPG characters as average speed, but Dimitri's damn fast even with Brave Lance, and is dealing a crapton of damage, and I do respect good evade vs. ARPG bosses a lot.
Dimitri vs. Terra (FF6)
Drain -> Ultima/Fire3.
Dimitri vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Dimitri vs. Raquel (WA4)
Iron Divide wasn't evadable, right?  And might barely 2HKO?  ...for all that it doesn't really matter, Dimitri probably 2 rounds here even through Raquel's impressive physical defense anyway.

Dimitri vs. Scias (BoF4)
Even if Scias gets Sleep to land, I dunno what his play is here.
Dimitri vs. Lenus (LoD)
If Lenus's HP is seen as bad enough, Dimitri could theoretically chip past the Limit, but..  no.  Helps that Boomerang won't trigger counters.  (Amusingly enough, this will actually happen later in my votes.)
Dimitri vs. Justin (Grandia)
Justin can equip an Axe to avoid Swordbreaker!  (doesn't matter)

Dimitri vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Dimitri vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Golden voter.  While I'm definitely down for anti-hyping P4 AGL, if it's even a tiebreaker for average speed enemies, it probably takes the day here.  Go in with Inaba Trout's Phys Evasion boost and cast Sukukaja / Youthful Wind, and Dimitri will have major issues hitting Yosuke even with his good accuracy, since it'll be ramming like 60% naive evasion or so even ignoring potential +evasion armors.  Dimitri needs a full Brave string to land, and anything less gets undone by Diarahan or Youthful Wind.  If Dimitri gets unlucky and there are lots of turns on Sukukaja left, Yosuke can fish for Confuse, albeit at the risk of Dimitri killing with only 2-3 hits on his Brave string if it misses.
Dimitri vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)
While Sara theoretically can run out of CP when using her Insight strategy.. nah, especially since she's using magic to kill Dimitri.

Claude vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
See Dimitri, except Claude can counterattack Luther's turn 1 attack as well.  Willing to hype some sort of Alert Stance counterattack -> Fallen Star -> Brave Bow quad here.
Claude vs. Terra (FF6)
Claude vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Claude vs. Raquel (WA4)
Yeah, Claude has a bit more of a problem here without Dimitri's Swordbreaker, subtly less damage, and less durability.

Claude vs. Scias (BoF4)
Sleep not turn 1.
Claude vs. Lenus (LoD)
Claude vs. Justin (Grandia)

Claude vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Claude vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Claude is more accurate than Dimitri and I'd even be inclined to spot him a Hit +20 from Archer to side in for this match, especially considering how much more accessible that is than some of the missable skill juggling nonsense Golden Yosuke has.  Can probably throw Silver Bow+ Curved Shots to basically heal-lock Yosuke, so he needs to get lucky on Confusion.  I'm not even sure if P4 Confusion turns off counter-attacks, and if it doesn't, then Yosuke is really doomed.
Claude vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)
95% base evade is a hell of a thing to face.  Claude will even get some hits in!  I don't think they will matter.


Erik: PCHP: 0.96, PDur 0.91, Agility +2.05 std. devs.  Deals 1.45 PCHP on turn 2 with Divide -> Fatal Slash (and 3x checks of 40% instant death), or 1.05 PCHP that ignores evasion & defense with Divide -> Critical Claim.


Erik vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Unlike Dimitri & Claude, not inclined to hype Erik's 16% evade as doing enough to stuff Luther's turn 2 Perfect Symmetry, even if Erik blocks paralysis.  Erik needs to go for a turn 3 win which is always dicey since he sets up Luther for Perfect Symmetry with his turn 1 Fatal Slash.
Erik vs. Terra (FF6)
Erik wins with L43 magic only w/ Divide->Critical Claim, but sure I'll still hype Break.  Stone (= metalization?) is one of the rare statuses DQ11 cast doesn't block.
Erik vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Monk can't block status when maximizing damage, and Erik has both Sleep & Death to pick between..  if Erik's 20% evasion w/ a Metal King Jacket is seen as working against BD skillz, then the combined odds of "either Erik sticks a status or dodges a Qigong Wave" might just beat 67%.  Unfortunately for him I am inclined to say that DQ evasion has enough holes that Monk probably has this, unlike FE evasion.
Erik vs. Raquel (WA4)
Raquel has below-average HP, just good defense, so Divide -> Critical Claim does its dark work.  Raquel might not even get a turn.

Erik vs. Scias (BoF4)
Resists sleep, blows Scias up turn 2.
Erik vs. Lenus (LoD)
While Lenus is pretty tanky, her damage is really uninspiring pre-limit and all physical, and Erik's massive 1.45 PCHP burst is surely enough to skip her limit phase after some chipping.
Erik vs. Justin (Grandia)
Resists ID.

Erik vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Hmm.  Erik can get close a few ways, but I don't see his winning play.  TUrn 1 Divide, Eph smacks him, then what?  T2 3x Critical Claim gets around Eph's defense and evasion, but still isn't a KO, and even if a 4th Crit Claim tossed on at the end as a double, Eph's counterattack in the middle will surely murder Erik, since he gets 2HKO'd here.  Hope for the best with Sleeper Hit, I guess?  Eh.
Erik vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Block Confuse, Resist Wind by like 90%, Divide -> Crit Claim does god's work in screwing over Sukukaja.
Erik vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)
Uh... headache.  Erik has too much stuff he wants to spend his accessory slots on - Seal resistance, Faint resistance, Fire resistance, Wind resistance, Lightning resistance.  Erik using Divide risks Sara responding with her S-Craft to Faint him and make it an extra-wasted turn.  I suspect Erik goes in with Fire resist + Faint resist, but that will leave him wide open to Seal chances, and Faint can still land through the resistance, so uphill battle.


Celes vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Damage too weak to smash through Luther's limit phase, blocking paralysis probably has too big a cost, Luther has stuff that counts as symbology for breaking Vanish presumably.
Celes vs. Terra (FF6)
Sure, I'll buy Drain hype.
Celes vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Imp.
Celes vs. Raquel (WA4)
Imp.

Celes vs. Scias (BoF4)
More imp, although Scias has trouble here anyway being ice-elemental damage by default.
Celes vs. Lenus (LoD)
The FF6 game over screen is the character kneeling in the darkness, how appropriate.
Celes vs. Justin (Grandia)
Uh, not so sure here.  I'm willing to hype up Celes having Vanish but would also be inclined to let anything vaguely sort of magical break it (hell, give Justin some 0 damage magic he'll likely have in-game if you must) and if it isn't up, Justin is tossing reasonably scary Bonesplitter Axe ID chances Celes can't block.  Grandia immunes status themselves IIRC, so Imp no worky?  I think maybe Justin?  Weird if so..

Celes vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Celes vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Imp, block confuse, screw over Wind.
Celes vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)
Minerva gives Sara real problems with ever winning.


Pretty tough field as noted by Elf, with a few Low Godlikes thrown in.  So merely an even record is very impressive.  Which is what most everybody got, although with different matches they won.  (And a few sketchy / weird interp matches.)
Dimitri: 6-4
Claude: 6-4
Erik: 5-5
Celes: 6-4
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 11:10:09 PM by SnowFire »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2020, 09:28:48 PM »
Dimitri vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Dimitri vs. Terra (FF6)
Dimitri vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Dimitri vs. Raquel (WA4)

Dimitri vs. Scias (BoF4)
Dimitri vs. Lenus (LoD)
Dimitri vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Dimitri vs. Justin (Grandia)

Dimitri vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Dimitri vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Dimitri vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Dimitri vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)




Claude vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Claude vs. Terra (FF6)
Claude vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Claude vs. Raquel (WA4)

Claude vs. Scias (BoF4)
Claude vs. Lenus (LoD)
Claude vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Claude vs. Justin (Grandia)

Claude vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8):
Claude vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Claude vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Claude vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)





Ceodore vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Ceodore vs. Terra (FF6)
Ceodore vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Ceodore vs. Raquel (WA4)

Ceodore vs. Scias (BoF4
Ceodore vs. Lenus (LoD)
Ceodore vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Ceodore vs. Justin (Grandia)

Ceodore vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Ceodore vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Ceodore vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Ceodore vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)




Celes vs. Luther (Star Ocean 3)
Celes vs. Terra (FF6)
Celes vs. Monk (Bravely Default)
Celes vs. Raquel (WA4)

Celes vs. Scias (BoF4)
Celes vs. Lenus (LoD)
Celes vs. Red (Saga Frontier)
Celes vs. Justin (Grandia)

Celes vs. Ephraim (Fire Emblem 8)
Celes vs. Yosuke (Persona 4)
Celes vs. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
Celes vs. Sara (Trails of Cold Steel)
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