Author Topic: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!  (Read 712 times)

superaielman

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Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« on: May 12, 2022, 12:49:20 PM »
Godlike:

Loki (VP1) vs Myria (BoF3)
Elc (AtL2) vs Orlandu (FFT)

Heavy:
Daos (Lufia 2) vs Frejyadour (S5)
Luminary (DQ11) vs Stella (Brig:LoR)

Middle:
Squall (FF8) vs Setsuna (Setsuna)
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Nergal (FE7)

Light:

Cecil (FF4) vs Shu (AtL2)
Primrose (Octopath) vs Dorothea (FETH)
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superaielman

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2022, 12:51:22 PM »
Loki (VP1) vs Myria (BoF3)- The durability difference is remarkable here.
Elc (AtL2) vs Orlandu (FFT)- Think a flame shield+opening MP busting is way much for Elc to deal with. Possible opening with a weapon break does it too since that does a number on Elc's damage. Excal makes divide irrelevant.

Heavy:
Daos (Lufia 2) vs Frejyadour (S5)- I see Frejyadour's physical hitting that crushing weakness. Not that it matters, he should be able to outslug Daos easily otherwise. *splat*
Luminary (DQ11) vs Stella (Brig:LoR)- I doubt Stella can heal lock Luminary. E: Stella goes first and just keeps spamming Ambush till the status lands. A crit would be a big problem as well.

Middle:
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Nergal (FE7)- Nergal does not like Mario level offense.

Light:

Cecil (FF4) vs Shu (AtL2)- I think the healing's enough. Time Bomb is a called shot so Cecil is going to be healing whenever Shu deploys that. Shu has no damage beyond that; so once he runs out of MP he is toast.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 12:13:34 PM by superaielman »
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Random Consonant

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2022, 04:06:26 PM »
Godlike:

Elc (AtL2) vs Orlandu (FFT) - I think this is right, at any rate.

Heavy:
Daos (Lufia 2) vs Frejyadour (S5) - Pretty okay with hyping the Dawn Rune here.

Middle:
Nope.

Light:

Cecil (FF4) vs Shu (AtL2) - Think so at any rate.
Primrose (Octopath) vs Dorothea (FETH) - Surely.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 11:18:30 PM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2022, 03:54:22 AM »

Godlike:

Loki (VP1) vs Myria (BoF3): I think this is reasonably close, but probably. Requires me seeing Loki under 1.73 mdur, but that's probably the case.

Heavy:
Daos (Lufia 2) vs Frejyadour (S5): Sun's mostly non-elemental to me, but as the "game's big plot element the main is guranteed to have", I'm strongly inclined to see it hitting weakness on Daos. It may not even matter since his basic physical definitely does.
Luminary (DQ11) vs Stella (Brig:LoR): Ambush spam into Dragon's Destruction? The threat of this heal-locks Luminary (Ambush, Ambush, DD kills), and Stella goes first so he can't just win a pure damage race. Could be argued.

Middle:
Squall (FF8) vs Setsuna (Setsuna): Luminaire should kill before Squall doubles, I think?
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Nergal (FE7): Doubled M-Power Hammer should kill. If it's a large enough AOE to not double (I'm undecided), it also isn't countered, and a followup physical should kill.

Light:

Primrose (Octopath) vs Dorothea (FETH): Yeah Dorothea doesn't tend to lose slugfests to mages who can't double her in Light.

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2022, 11:12:08 PM »
Loki (VP1) vs Myria (BoF3) - Yeah, I think so, since I do see Myria 3-2ing average.
Elc (AtL2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - I think Orlandu's breaks really do a number on Elc. His durability is going to HELL after he gets his shinies broken, and I'm positive Orlandu's faster, so he already starts at a net gain.

Daos (Lufia 2) vs Freyjadour Falenas (S5) - sure why not

Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Nergal (FE7) - Heck, Jump+doubled Mario shots under M-Power deal 83% PC HP, which is certainly above what I see Nergal's effective pdur as. This is a piece of cake.

Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Shu (AtL2) - I don't even think any of Shu's physical-based status are relevant here (the ones that could scare Cecil get immuned and all). Time Bomb is a really difficult called shot to use here, especially since the healing largely undoes it long-term, and past that, Shu's damage is abysmal. Cecil's also having a really bad time dealing damage, but he doesn't have to win a slugfest here. Very sad.
Primrose Azelhart (Octopath) vs Dorothea Arnault (FETH) - Renewal and counters make this really ugly. Primrose may not even get to a 3BP turn and she's not getting any damage to stick outside those.
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SnowFire

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2022, 12:09:45 AM »
Heavy:
Daos (Lufia 2) vs Frejyadour (S5)
Luminary (DQ11) vs Stella (Brig:LoR)
Re Elf's analysis...  2x Ambushes -> DD will kill, but how is that a heal lock?  Wouldn't it need to be Ambush->DD that kills?  If Stella needs 2 Ambushes, Luminary will just do something else after the first one (damage or Sword Stance) and then full-heal after the second one.

Anyway, Faint is kinda similar to Turn Skip which Luminary can reduce or possibly block outright (Catholicon Ring; Not listed in the stat topic, but Archangel's boots should be Act II available and offers 50% Turn Skip protection for an Act II interp), and Ambush is only listed as a 30% chance of Faint anyway.  I think Stella needs Faint hype to win here though due to the above reason.  Secondly, I'm a bit skeptical of letting Brig2 characters "double" (threat range is fine for initiative, but not necessarily doubling...  i.e. if changed into ATB turns, it'd be like having a turn at 80, 180, 280, 380...  rather than 80, 160, 240, 320...).  But even if you do let Brig2 characters double, Luminary may be fine.  At the levels Elf listed in the topic, Stella only gets 6x Ambushes before she won't have enough MP left for DD, meaning she needs to get a double fairly quickly.  Worse, Luminary has a 10% block rate on his shield, and a successful block will let him do some annoying stuff- Sword Stance if nothing else to harvest more blocks/parries and make Stella run out of MP while he outlasts with healing.  If you want to get *really* fancy, he can cast Kaclang for invincibility as a last resort upon expecting an incoming double...  it can be an unreliable strategy in-game with random initiative, but even with some random chance to backfire, it is a genuine way to survive charged up horrible turns of doom in-game, so it's not a totally troll strategy. 

Middle:
Squall (FF8) vs Setsuna (Setsuna)
This one is interesting.  Sure, 3x Luminaires kill Squall before he doubles, but 2x Luminaires deal ~0.8 PCHP damage (Setsuna's damage is average) which knocks Squall into Limit range.  Assuming you're generous about letting FF8 characters find limits quickly (I am), that is extremely bad, although Squall won't technically have that much time on his third turn to "find" the limit with repeated turn cancelling.  Still, this isn't a totally closed case...  Setsuna can go Luminaire-> healing and hope to kill with a massive Holy Light.  Problem is she's slow (listed as 83% speed) so I don't think she builds up quite quickly enough, Squall gets a double reasonably quickly.  However!  Setsuna has one last hope...  she can stall with healing.  Squall needs to keep attacking in, because if he doesn't, Setsuna will safely chip with weaker damage and evade the limit.  But taking damage is what builds Momentum in IAS very reliably, and Momentum is a horrible thing to give Setsuna.  Even if she started with 0 Momentum, she'll get a bar, and then cast Luminaire with Momentum and apply Auto-Life to herself.  Even after she dies horribly from getting Lionhearted, she'll just wake back up again then KO Squall.

Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Nergal (FE7)

Light:

Primrose (Octopath) vs Dorothea (FETH)
If you let Primrose get powerful physical Allure targets (i.e. the overlevel Assassin in the stat topic), then... she might still lose, but at least it'll be close.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2022, 01:47:57 AM »
Quote
Re Elf's analysis...  2x Ambushes -> DD will kill, but how is that a heal lock?

It's the threat of Faint that heal-locks; Luminary not healing after the first means he loses if Faint kicks in on the second.

I just was assuming "all statusblockers in Act 2 are garbage" because that's what I noticed when I played!

EDIT: Also I forgot about limits for some reason, don't ask. I think I agree with your new analysis, and I find it rather hilarious that this is potentially a match where Squall gets off Renzokuken and loses.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 09:32:44 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2022, 12:08:19 AM »
Godlike:

Loki (VP1) vs Myria (BoF3)
Elc (AtL2) vs Orlandu (FFT)- Flame Shield + Weapon Break should do the trick

Heavy:
Daos (Lufia 2) vs Frejyadour (S5)

Middle:
Squall (FF8) vs Setsuna (Setsuna)- Playing a version with Hide working makes this clear since she gets a notable attack boost after she does it that allows her to just flat out 2HKO with Luminaire

Light:

Cecil (FF4) vs Shu (AtL2)- This is so funny.
...into the nightfall.

superaielman

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2022, 12:20:41 PM »
Updating this tomorrow.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Cmdr_King

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2022, 09:03:12 PM »
Godlike:

Loki (VP1) vs Myria (BoF3)
Elc (AtL2) vs Orlandu (FFT)- aaaahhh hyeah no vote.

Heavy:
Daos (Lufia 2) vs Frejyadour (S5)
Luminary (DQ11) vs Stella (Brig:LoR)- No vote

Middle:
Squall (FF8) vs Setsuna (Setsuna)
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Nergal (FE7)- No vote.

Light:

Cecil (FF4) vs Shu (AtL2)- No vote
Primrose (Octopath) vs Dorothea (FETH)
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SnowFire

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Re: Futurama type tournament- hammer time!
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2022, 09:51:38 AM »
super: Since I see you switched your vote to Stella - I don't see this one?  As noted, unless the wikis / online support is wrong, there is in fact an Act II status blocker for turn-skip, which is if anything a "better" status to block than Faint since taking damage doesn't make it wear off.  Unless you ban accessories for DQ11 or don't see Faint as close enough to Turn Skip, I guess.  More generally, even if Luminary is totally barred from blocking the status (in a way that isn't done with status blocker accesories in other games) - can Stella land it in time?  It takes 2x Ambushes -> DD to KO, but landing Faint on the first Ambush doesn't actually matter (aside from probably turning off evasion on the 2nd Ambush).  If Stella gets Faint on the first Ambush, then who cares?  Luminary will just full-heal cheaply after the 2nd Ambush and aggressively run Stella low on MP.  It's even actively bad for Stella to land Faint the first try if the game doesn't let her reapply Faint immediately - I'm not 100% sure on this, but it wouldn't shock me if that was true, I know the game doesn't let you renew buffs by recasting them.  Setting that aside for a moment, Stella only 3HKOing here is just ruinous to her case.  It means that Luminary can safely use Sword Stance if not Fainted in the first attack.  Stella then needs to have her 2nd Ambush both hit (through a ~43% parry/block rate) and to apply a 30% Faint proc.  If she doesn't, then Luminary full-heals, and now she just loses short of continuous Faint Procs, as Luminary will just out-heal her MP if she keeps uses Ambush.

It is a fair point that crits in Brig2 auto-apply the status (if not blocked by immunity, which again Luminary can probably get), but the stat topic doesn't seem to list Stella's critical hit rate and I haven't done a playthrough as Mirelva yet, so not sure how high a rate she gets.  It's usually around 10-15% or so, right?  That helps mildly but makes the case more dependent on "can Brig2 characters immediately reapply Faint after removing it".

(EDIT: Elf says there's a 90% chance that Faint chaining can happen in Brig 2, so that probably works for Stella at least, in the no-immunity scenario.)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 01:18:31 PM by SnowFire »