Author Topic: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-  (Read 7968 times)

Cmdr_King

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2019, 07:50:45 PM »
*Three Years Later*

Well, about what you expect from a second waver.
https://www.out.com/transgender/2019/10/14/hillary-clinton-says-we-must-be-sensitive-transphobia
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SnowFire

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2019, 12:44:59 AM »
Edited response to be a bit more specific: I don't really agree with the article's slant that this is a reversal/change of Clinton's position.  It's an expansive reading of one comment that implies that because Clinton talked about the difficulties of her generation accepting transgender people, she also doesn't think it's an issue worth fighting - which is a big leap.  Especially since in the very same interview Chelsea vocally was speaking up for transgender rights, and the two were being interviewed as a pair, so it's reasonable that the elder Clinton felt that topic was already covered.

Original comment (that Sir Alex responds to below), which is phrased a bit more stridently:

That is a hostile and unfair take on one line about something perfectly obvious that everyone can agree with - that old people of that generation aren't always comfortable with transgender issues, and it will take time to turn them around and/or a straight-up passing of the guard (read: old people dying).  It's the journalist who is writing silly things and presenting this as "trying to take the middle ground on the issue."  For context, this is with Clinton putting a transgender person as a hero to be admired in her book and, as referenced in the article, vocal support both in word and deed earlier for transgender issues (which you've been linked to before by NotMiki & myself).  And Chelsea was vocally supporting trans people in this very same interview.  But clearly H. Clinton changed her mind because she acknowledged that some old people are anti-trans, and it's a tough problem???  I have no idea where the writer is getting this as an about-face on the issue, but I presume it's just clickbait outrage journalism.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 05:28:06 PM by SnowFire »

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2019, 04:23:42 PM »
..... yikes, dude.  Reread what you just wrote there a few times, putting yourself in the shoes of trans people being smugly told by cis people "well you need to just suck it up and accept that people hate you and you'll never have rights, and that's a difficult problem and even your 'good' politicians have to kowtow to those people, and I just think that's perfectly okay, deal with it, nothing to be outraged about."

Then hopefully you will see where the outrage comes from.   The world can be better.  Things are written in context and in perspective, especially things posted on out dot com slash transgender.

SnowFire

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2019, 04:48:45 PM »
To back up for a second, let me be clear that I personally am entirely in favor of trans rights, and I certainly do NOT think trans people should just suck it up and wait it out.  And cis people have a moral duty to help make a fairer society on this topic, too.  So no, I absolutely do not think there should be kowtowing to old-fashioned dinosaurs, they can either join the winning team or suck it up.

If - and this is a big if - the message included "(old people being skeptical of trans people) that's perfectly okay, deal with it," then sure, that's reason to get mad / be disappointed.  Not contesting that.  I don't feel that this sentiment is actually in the original interview, though!  Ergo it is the journalist doing a misreading of the interview, not the actual statement expressed by Clinton.  The alt-right has made it so that sometimes you need to read weird coded messages into seemingly neutral things, but that only applies when there's not a lot of information to go on.  There IS information to go on here - that of Clinton vocally supporting transgender people & rights in the past, while in power ( https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/hillary-clinton-2016-transgender-rights-passport-policy-state-department-lgbt-equality-214007 ), and right now, in the very same interview and in her recently published book.  I doubt this was some kind of coded "eh, old people are trouble, let's give up" message, especially since Chelsea in the very same dual interview was vocally speaking up on the issue, with the two being a pair.  I think it's much more reasonable to just read it as talking about the difficulty in the struggle here.

Put things another way, let's flip this case around.  Take a politician with a long-documented hostility toward LGBT rights - Mike Pence, say.  Let's say they have an interview where they say something that could possibly be taken as neutral, middle-groundy - both sides have a lot of concerns, and we need to listen to what everybody says.  Is this cause to assume they've changed their mind?  Hell, even if hypothetical Pence had softened his position, why don't he say just say so more explicitly?

And I'll add that I do agree there are parts of the Democratic party that would sell LGBT rights down the river in a second, so I'm not asking for blind loyalty or the like to any Dem politician.  I think that directing that claim at Hillary Clinton in particular is the wrong target, at least without something a lot more explicit.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2019, 09:47:31 PM »
For context, the original snark was that in 2016 when I first ran across that story, I thought "y'know, this seems calculated to look impressive on paper but also be completely inaccessible to the majority of trans people.  I wonder if Clinton's staff did this with minimal input and Clinton herself is vaguely TERFy given her second wave roots" and welp, spot on there.
It's not a change of her position, just an illustration of how weak her position was.

If we are going to be serious business about it...

This comment centers the irrational worry of bigots over the material needs of the marginalized, which is the pattern of literally every aspect of society and the core, singular reason society rarely improves beyond raw technology.

More than that it's the seed of that bigotry itself.  You're using a nominally true fact ("trans women to not experience certain forms of misogyny as cis women do"), using it as proxy to imply outright bigotry without admitting to it ("therefore trans women are not women"), then excluding people from their rights/necessary services based on that bigotry-disguised-as-fact.

Clinton, being a liberal, knows that bigotry is bad and that you should accept people, so she's papered over that with making surface level "concessions" to the notion of gender identity.  But because she has not challenged her underlying bigotry, those concessions are based in pity rather than acceptance, and only embracing the most clear-cut, obvious examples.  The logical extrapolation of her comment is, in order to "qualify" as your gender, you'd have to achieve high levels of medical and legal transition... which due to the fact society is by and large even more bigoted than that, is something only a minority of trans people can achieve.  Start to finish, it costs $200-300K and around 5 years to "properly" transition, including a full course of hormone therapy (not that this stops after that period, but that's the length to get the full effects), top/bottom surgery, and any facial work.  At present less than half of trans people make that *lifetime*.

And here's the thing, it's not a big deal if Clinton is like that.  She's a semi-retired politician, and even if she were active she has a history of letting others put forth proposals on areas of policy she doesn't feel fully qualified in.  But that this set of beliefs is pretty well at the *forefront* of liberal thought on the subject is utterly damning of everyone else.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2019, 01:56:19 AM »
The logical extrapolation of her comment is, in order to "qualify" as your gender, you'd have to achieve high levels of medical and legal transition... which due to the fact society is by and large even more bigoted than that, is something only a minority of trans people can achieve.  Start to finish, it costs $200-300K and around 5 years to "properly" transition, including a full course of hormone therapy (not that this stops after that period, but that's the length to get the full effects), top/bottom surgery, and any facial work.  At present less than half of trans people make that *lifetime*.

Preach.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2019, 03:14:48 AM »
I was responding (originally) to the article, which I find to be the kind of source that could be used to claim anything about anyone.  The linked article is based off an article in The Daily Mail, a famously tabloidy, unreliable, and awful British newspaper.  They enjoy shit-stirring and generally making anything look like a conflict.  The Daily Mail article was writing about a paywall'd interview, which the blog author admits to not reading.  So this is secondhand filtered through a very unreliable source (and if you check the original Daily Mail article, it looks like the writer thinks the more scandalous part is Chelsea affirming women can have a penis).  And - even given that - the blog author is still spinning the comments in a very specific way.  I don't think it's clear at all that Clinton meant these statements at all in the way the writer took them.  Certainly, if you take away the nameplate and have it be solely comments from Person XYZ - there's nothing shocking here.  "Old people are bigots", and it's entirely reasonable that the speaker is calling for "sensitivity" for trans people.  Or that calling for sensitivity for old bigots just means telling them they're wrong politely.

Essentially, a source like that is too weak.  If you are already inclined to distrust the speaker, then sure, it confirms your dark suspicions.  If you are inclined to trust the speaker, this means nothing, since it's essentially reading a coded message in that goes counter to what everything else in this interview and this book are saying.  What raised my eyebrows originally was the fact that the article itself, and I presumed CK at first (but I was clearly wrong on this), took it as a switcheroo - that the speaker was good, but based on a weird coded interpretation of a phrase, now they're bad.  In my defense, this is the slant the article itself has!  It notes Clinton's strong history on the subject recently.  But if such claims were accepted as reasonable for any sort of change in opinion, that's just a formula to get played by Russian trolls.  If Fox News runs a story saying "Bernie Sanders caught admitting that capitalism is awesome, abandons socialist principles in interview," just accepting this as true isn't wise, even if Fox dug up some quotes that might indicate this.  (And yeah, Daily Mail & Fox News are about the same level.)

Now, to toss this all aside for a moment - obviously, there were names in the article, not a talk about Mysterious Person XYZ.  So, if you already do not trust Hillary Clinton on this issue, if you previously thought she was TERFy or the like, I actually don't have too much to say, that's a different discussion (and again, this was not obvious by the article itself).  If we start with the hostile outlook, it's like if an old-school Southern politician who supports actually racist policies is caught saying something maybe explicitly racist: if it confirms what everybody suspected anyway, sure, no benefit of the doubt.  (Although, even then, I'd argue the "gotcha" gaffe is less important than the actually bad policies to begin with.)  I'm merely saying that from a neutral or positive starting perspective - it's, at best, not convincing this was actually a change in policy to begin with, that this was meant as a retreat from trans rights or anything like that.  It is just an indication that the interviewer asked about the topic.

I will say that the Clintons (Chelsea, but endorsed by her mom) explicitly affirmed that trans women are women in the interview, though, with regard to your other comments, and did not condition this on finishing a medical transition.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 05:01:44 AM by SnowFire »

Ranmilia

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2019, 11:34:02 AM »
Dude.  We are using it as a springboard to talk about Hillary's comments themselves, not that one article.  If you are hung up on it then here are some more.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hillary-clinton-chelsea-interview-8j33c8vt5  (the original interview, paywalled)
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/14/hillary-clinton-chelsea-trans-identity-sunday-times-interview/
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/hillary-clinton-calling-transgender-people-new-difficult-ignores-history (good read)

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/10/hillary-clinton-compared-staying-bill-sex-scandal-raising-transgender-child/  Not even the only time she's said uncomfortable things on the subject this month.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/hillary-clinton-isnt-woke-enough-anymore
https://www.redstate.com/alexparker/2019/10/14/promoting-book-praising-transgender-woman-hillary-chelsea-asked-can-woman-male-genitals/   ... And here are a couple of pieces slanted way in the other direction, from pro-TERF authors defending Hillary and mocking people who condemn her remarks.  The reason I am coming off strong here is that this is what it sounds like you are siding with here, Snowfire.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2019, 02:50:11 PM »

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/hillary-clinton-calling-transgender-people-new-difficult-ignores-history (good read)


Yeah, this doesn't include as much of her original quote in the article itself, but it raises a bunch of other surrounding context and is much less charged in its wording.

But to be clear, my original conclusion is drawn solely from Clinton's direct quote and my own knowledge of TERFs, second wave feminism, and trans issues.  That sort of "but it's haaaaard" language is exactly how TERFs looking to recruit or conservatives drafting anti-trans legislation get the uninformed on their side.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2019, 03:14:43 PM »
Sir Alex: That is not at all what I was saying.  RedState's slant is happily accepting the idea that Clinton backstabbed LGBT rights, but said doing so is not actually bad.  I was questioning whether such a backstab happened at all in the first place, based off CK's article, and saying that at the very least, even if this happened, the original article didn't make its case.  Maybe there are reasons to distrust Clinton on the topic; that's a separate discussion that I'm not trying to argue about, and I will read your other links.

My attempt at analogies has clearly failed, but for my perspective before you posted those other links: imagine if someone you highly respect is attacked by a rando on Twitter for something - could be anything (harassment claims, bad politics, crime, whatever).  And what if that original Twitter comment is uncorroborated, or based off of a RedState article, or a Daily Mail article, or comes across as overly conspiracy theory minded.  Even if the claims turn out to be true, it's still okay to be skeptical of the original tweet - fine, maybe, but let's see something more direct.  It doesn't mean to excuse the behavior if it happened, it's backing up and starting with "did this really happen."

EDIT: Also, apparently Clinton said some other stupid stuff recently, so I'll concede that point.  That said, to be clear, I was 90% responding to that one article, and the general springboard to discussion about Clinton was only relevant as far as preconceptions / benefit of the doubt, but not the main point of contention.

CK: Fair enough.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 01:02:33 AM by SnowFire »

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2019, 11:32:30 PM »
So... this goes into sufficient detail for a crime report, discretion advised.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/10/rosario-dawson-sued-allegedly-attacking-trans-man/?fbclid=IwAR1zeT6JaCmpBZim4HFdYFi2j1brrJ8AMspINzH0Ndk3TnrnTnJhcxc3bVQ

I can’t help but think it won’t even be a blip.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2019, 11:52:09 PM »
So are the comments on that site always so ... antagonistic?
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2019, 12:38:50 AM »
Can't say I'm familiar enough with them to say.

Seems likely the answer is "they are when it's to do with trans folk".
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2019, 10:10:28 PM »
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/so-about-that-buttigieg-surge/

Normal content for 538 at this particular time, but there's a poll towards the end that jumped out at me.

"What types of candidates would Americans NOT vote for?"

And it falls about the way you'd expect... except "Independents" are notably less likely to vote for a Jewish candidate than either Democrats or Republicans (9% vs 5% for both other groups.)  It's not a large enough gap to necessarily be anything suggestive, and could just have to do with how the sample is weighted, but it's about the only true "huh" moment there.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2019, 11:43:08 PM »
A difference of 4% may not be statistically significant, depending on the sample size.

Thaaat said, assuming the result reflects reality, it... doesn't actually surprise me. Independents include the delightful tinfoil-hat wearing conspiracy theorist who is likely to believe such things as Jews Control Everything.

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2019, 12:41:28 AM »
Additionally both democrats and republicans do have concrete platform reasons to downplay any biases they have (saying you're against Jews as a Democrat is a fast way to get side-eye, while there's a whole complicated interplay between conservative Jewish groups, support for Israel, and evangelicalism.)

Like it's perfectly explicable, just... weird.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2019, 01:56:37 PM »
Not strictly politics, but this feels important and I hopefully I can expand on that thought later.
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2019/10/david-letterman-conversation-with-nell-scovell
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2019, 08:12:23 PM »
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2019, 11:39:25 PM »
I'm not sure if "really long list of grievances about specific people" counts as a nuanced understanding of a generation.  "Boomers!  A lot of them were bad therefore woe betide anyone who takes issue with a generalized attack on all of them!"  Please.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2019, 11:50:38 PM »
Dozens of anecdotes that fit neatly into both the mindset of hundreds if not thousands of pieces of writing and the broad socio-political outcomes of most of the years in which said generation were the decisive voting block in power are in no way suggestive of common/dominant mindsets for people with a shared set of historical and cultural experiences?  That's a stretch.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2019, 12:26:30 AM »
The question is whether a common or dominant mindset in a group entitles you to treat them all like garbage.  That's not a question you can answer just by priming your anger for them with a breathless list of indictments.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2019, 01:04:17 AM »
Yeah calling an entire generation trash seems immensely unhelpful unless your goal is to alienate potential allies.

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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2019, 01:34:27 AM »
Quote
"Ok boomer" refers to a very specific generational mindset- almost always white and middle class- that's  about resenting younger folks for not worshipping boomers for co-existing with the civil rights movement or entertaining their fantasy of being geniuses who saved the world.

In movement work, the boomer mentality has shown up as a refusal to make room for new leaders by training them, creating openings in operational leadership, and encouraging the succeeding generation to creatively lead  in new ways.

The transition to statesmanship/movement elder status is super-important not only because it makes room, but because it creates a cohort of elders (advisors) who are respected and listened to for their wisdom.

As long as boomers stay operational leaders, they're peers.

The entire thread was about how it's not universal, and how the mindset being describe specifically makes someone useless as an ally.  And that's the people trying to do right.

I mean, in my personal experience I've yet to meet these hypothetical American Adults Over 60 who aren't Trumpian garbage people, but I see them on the internet and TV so clearly they exist.

-----

Put another way, if I were in a casual setting (chat, conversation, so on) and said "The Straights Are Not Okay" in response to some really outlandish news story (oh hey wait, I have a good example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/28/woman-killed-by-shrapnel-gender-reveal-party-explosion-iowa/ ), would you honestly, truly read that as a condemnation of 95% of the population and not a shorthand for how neurotically uptight people are about sexuality and gender roles?
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2019, 08:11:36 PM »
I wrote a bunch of stuff about sociolinguistics and generational historical introspection but I'm tired of defending myself so you get this instead:

We've reached "ok boomer" because we have tried conversation and empathy and personalization, and been met with a variegated "you don't know what you're talking about so I'll talk louder." (I don't think that's a controversial take since that's exactly how she wraps up her Twitter thread anyway.)

You can Not All Boomers all you want but as with Not All Men or any other "hey but -" response to a general call it's preeeeeeeetty likely to come across as apologism and get appropriately canned.
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Re: Politics 2019- Impeach the daughter-fu-
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2019, 08:34:24 PM »
Interesting companion piece, Gen Xer breaking down her own generation: https://twitter.com/naima/status/1191784298766049285?s=21
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