Author Topic: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.  (Read 2848 times)

Tide

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Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« on: August 23, 2023, 04:28:21 PM »
I like talking about things that interest me (don't we all?). I've been meaning to write down my thoughts regarding the game for a long time now but wasn't sure where to go with it. Certainly didn't want to hijack MC's thread again. Since the only other space I use that could talk about it is reddit, I'm creating a thread here. I've been playing for a good 10 months now. Game is good, you should try it, etc. I'd go into a bit more details but the point of this thread isn't to advertise the game. Instead, I want to talk about cards, types of plays, analyze/document games that I've had and so on. And hey, if you get into Snap or are already playing it, feel free to use this thread to.

SNAP'S GAMEPLAY -
So before I start into any real card/play analysis, I think it's important to talk about how Snap plays since that will then open up certain concepts without them just appearing with no context. Marvel Snap is in some ways, quite rigid. In every game, there are 3 lanes. Each lane has an effect (a famous Marvel location) and 4 playable spots. Normally, each player has a deck comprised of exactly 12 cards and each game goes on for 6 rounds. Every round, you gain +1 Energy which is basically your Mana/Casting ability and can play cards up to whatever max Energy you have. The goal is to win 2 of the 3 lanes by the end of round 6. To win a lane, you simply have to have more Power in that spot than your opponent. It is important to note that cards will flip over based on PRIORITY (more on this later) and that location effects happen AFTER card effects themselves. These little nuisances give Snap some complexity and the constantly changing lane locations and deck types are what keeps the game fresh.


SNAP CARDS -
Every card has a casting cost (Energy) and a Power value. These two numbers combine together to give it its stat-line. Most cards will also have an ability effect, which can interact with itself, other cards, the play board, and so on. These effects are divided into three major categories:

- On Reveal: The effect happens immediately as soon as the card is flipped
- Ongoing: The effect stays in play as long the card isn't disabled in some way
- Passive: This card has this effect and cannot be interacted with except in rare circumstances.

Abilities then also have sub-categories, which then put them into their own archetype. For example, certain cards when played will Discard a card from your hand. Other cards when played will Destroy a card on the board, etc. An archetype is usually the basis for how a deck is built. Most decks will have a core crux of cards that make up the game plan or primary condition and other cards will be in there to either give a sub-archetype or just function as support.

As of today, here are all the major archetypes that I am aware of:

- Lockjaw Lotto - A deck that specializes in playing cards from the deck instead of in hand.
- Zoo - A deck that focuses on going wide by flooding space with low-cost cards (typically 1 cost) and then buffing them in late rounds.
- Spectrum Destroyer - An deck that primarily uses Ongoing cards, then buffs them with Spectrum if wide, or plays Destroyer if going tall.
- Apoc Discard - Focuses on Discarding the namesake card (Apocalypse) and uses Dracula/Morbius as Anchors.
- Hela Discard - Focuses on Discarding many cards in hand, then plays them all at the end of the game with Hela
- Dino Handsize - Focuses on holding as many cards as possible in hand to buff up the titular card, Devil Dinosaur
- Ronan - Focuses on denying an opponent the ability to play their cards from hand to increase their hand size and thus buffing Ronan the Accuser.
- Darkhawk - Focuses on increasing your opponent's deck, to buff the titular card, Darkhawk
- Movement - Shuffles cards in your lane area after play. Normally, this is prohibited
- Shenault - Named after two key cards: She-Hulk and Infinaut. This deck focuses and utilizes float to create explosive Turn 6-7s
- Generic Destroy - A deck that focuses on destroying cards played to get bigger and bigger values
- Nimrod Destroy - Focuses on buffing the titular card (Nimrod), which you then dupe by destroying it
- Shuri - Uses the titular card to create a giant powered card, which you then clone afterwards.
- Wong Combo - Uses the titular card to basically combo one or two On Reveal effects by having them activate multiple times.
- Negative - Uses Mr. Negative to invert the cost and power values of cards remaining in the deck
- Negative Jane - Same as above, but runs Jane Foster to then fetch all 0-cost cards remaining in deck.
- Control - Reactive deck that focuses on countering your opponent's plays
- Lane Control / Lockdown - Similar to above, but does so by shutting lanes down (effects both players).
- Bounce - A deck that pumps up its cards by replaying them over and over from hand.
- Ramp - A deck that aims to play cards of higher cost earlier then they are intended
- Junk - Similar to lane control but instead of completing shutting a lane down, you slowly deny an opponent play space in their lanes.
- Patriot - A deck that buffs up cards played that are ability-less
- Cerebro - A deck that buffs up cards with all the same power value
- Surfer - A deck that is focused primarily on 3 cost cards
- Agatha - Named after its titular card. Lets the AI play the game for you.
- High Evo (HE) - Named after its titular card. Alters the way certain abilityless cards function
- Thanos - Named after its titular card. Adds 6 Infinity Stone cards into your deck.
- Galactus - Named after its titular card. This card focuses on building tall in one lane and one lane only.

SNAP CONCEPTS AND TERMS -

Some of this should be common terminology in other card games. Others are specific to Snap:

Float - Unused Energy at the end of any turn

Mill - To get rid of an opponent's card, either in hand or deck. Note that Mill isn't particularly strong in Snap right now because of the limited number of ways to do so.

Tech - A card that is used primarily to counter another card or type of card

Anchor/Establisher - A card that is meant to win a lane for you when played.

Enabler - A card whose main purpose is to create plays that are otherwise impossible or to expand a given play window.

Support - A card whose primary worth is its synergy with another card, aimed to aid with the primary win con in the deck.

Curve - Describes your general lines of play and play combinations for a given turn, given the cards available in deck. Cards that cut cost alter your standard curve since it effectively gives you more energy to spend.

Tempo - To play cards close to the "par" stat-line for a given turn in a game. So if you play something smaller, you'll be playing under Tempo. Generally speaking, playing under Tempo is bad because you are effectively being energy inefficient and will lose if you just then play cards that match up to what par should be.

Token - Cards that spawn or create other cards (usually abilityless) when played. These cards can be interacted with.

Play Window - Describes which particular turn is the most effective to play a card. Not all Play Windows are equal. Specifically Turns 3 and 4 are usually the most important. Turns 1 and 5 are usually the least important.

Real Estate Agent - A card that alters a lane's location effect

Series - Describes when in the game the card is introduced. Marvel Snap's cards are not all introduced at once. To prevent a newbie from being trounced by a veteran player, players are slowly introduced to more and more cards through different release Series. So Series 1 describes a card available from the get-go. Series 5 describes an "Ultra-Rare" card, usually those released just recently.

Snap - The game's namesake mechanic. Every game, you "bet" cubes. If you win, you get double your ante. Lose and you lose double your ante. Snapping is to raise essentially. You can only do this once, but it doubles your base Ante of 1 to 2 and hence winnings from 2 to 4. If both players snap, the you can win up to 8 cubes in a single game. 

Cube-Equity - The number of cubes the deck wins compared to it's losses. A deck with good cube equity means it will regularly gain you cubes. Note that gaining cubes isn't the same as winning. Due to Snaps, you can have some games where you win way more cubes then you lose.

Retreat - Forfeit, Conceding, Surrendering a game. You lose cubes equal to your ante basically.

Priority - Determines who reveals their cards first. This is particular important because cards that are unflipped are not considered to be "In Play". Since On Reveal effects happen only once, if you have a particular effect that you absolutely need to hit, you need to make sure you have the right priority, otherwise your play basically whiffs. A good example of this is with Shang Chi. Shang is normally used to counter cards over 9 power since he destroys them. However, his effect only happens when revealed and then is considered to have expired. So if you reveal SECOND in this case, Shang will miss your 9+ power card completely. Priority is determined by who is currently winning the game, so it can be manipulated every round. Experienced players are aware of this and will fight to win OR lose priority depending on the deck.

Reach - Describes a card being able to access lanes that have otherwise been restricted or locked, which would normally prevent further play

Restricted Location - A location that forbids you from being able to directly play cards into it. Sometimes, these are very obvious such as Sanctum Sanatorium which just states "You can't play cards here". Sometimes, they are more nuanced such as Death's Domain, which destroys cards played into the lane. In the latter case for example, you can get around the location effect in several ways.

DEFINING RANKS AND TIERS -
Probably should've outlined this earlier, but I should probably explain how I'm also ranking the cards. Outside of personal experience, a card's "rank" is basically how versatile or useful it is in the grand scheme of the game. Metas will come and go, but the really good cards will maintain relevancy across multiple seasons. It goes without saying, but I also don't look at Cards in a vaccuum. Like Mystique is a great card, but without any other good Ongoing synergies for example, she'd be useless. Ideally, you'd probably be evaluating based on the deck archetype, but there are sites that actively track win rates for that. So, for me, ranking and tiering a card is more about "how useful is this card overall?". Here's how I'd go about reading it:

S Tier - This card is a game defining card in that it alters the way one should go about thinking about the game. They enable many other combos/decks or change up the way one can go about playing a particular deck. These are very rare.
A Tier - A card that is often very relevant for the meta game. Essentially, you play the game and think, "Does my opponent have this?". Often very versatile and can be slot in easily.
B Tier - A strong card that has a few drawbacks, but still played pretty frequently and is quite strong on its own. Most cards are around the B-C tier.
C Tier - Cards that are a bit more niche and weaker individually. Needs the support of other cards to really do well.
D Tier - These are cards that are almost always combo reliant. They are very narrow and are either often dead on draw or just don't do anything most of the time.
F Tier - Pretty much unusable card or cards that have always been bad. Lots of issues and generally, no one plays them as a result.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2023, 03:04:15 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2023, 04:41:54 AM »
Okay, after all that, let's get into the meat and potatoes of the game: the Cards! How this analysis will work is as follows: I will go over the card, listing its stats, abilities, archetype and uses. Next I'll go over some common plays or combos with the card, then finally, the most subjective part - how good I personally think the card is and tier it. Creating individual posts also lets me update the posting if the card changes at some point and my experience with it develops. So that's the format.

Let's start with one of my favorite cards (100% Tide approved): Scarlet Witch



Cost: 2
Power: 3 (Par)
Ability: On Reveal - Replace this location with a random new one.
Ideal Turn to Play: Varies. Turn 6 if you can create some surprise rug pulls. Otherwise, Turn 2-3 ideally to change a bad location to something more favourable. Good play window overall
Archetype: Tech / Real Estate Agent. No real way to work SWitch as an actual combo card since the location she creates is random.

Uses: Location control is a big deal in Snap as you can probably tell since they will effect every card you are putting into play. However, it is also something that can be easily over valued because even in the situation of a bad location perse, one has to remember that the effect goes both ways. Meaning, if the effect is bad for you, it is quite possible that the effect may also be bad (or even worse) for your opponent. As such Scarlet Witch is often best used on Turn 6 for a surprise play or rug pull to turn a location on its head and win that way. That's not to say you can't play Wanda earlier but generally, those plays aren't winning or as decisive barring something really detrimental for your deck. If you are playing a Destroy shell for example, and Wakanda rolls as one of the lane spots, SWitch can turn that around Turn 2 and you don't have to worry about one of the lanes basically denying your cards' abilities.

A very common use of SWitch in today's landscape is to play her into a vulnerable Limbo location. This effectively cuts the game back to 6 turns instead of 7, so if an opponent needs that turn to float or set up their combo, you effectively get to catch them with their pants down. SWitch can also be used on certain Restrictive locations, last minute to turn it around and win it for you if an opponent lacks the necessary reach and tools. For example, dropping Wanda into Death's Domain lets you chump that location for 3 power if the opponent lacks reach since effects on cards take place BEFORE the location effect.

Compared to other real estate agents, Scarlet Witch is the most cost efficient. The other real estate agents are either 3 cost, cannot change the locations only their positions, or take place on Turn 5. This cost efficiency means she's also the only real realistic real estate agent that can be used on Turn 6. In return though, SWitch has no Surfer synergy and because her effect is random, you can just as easily screw yourself over when played versus directly benefiting you - hence also why Turn 6 is ideal. If you are playing SWitch earlier, you are gambling somewhat that whatever location she does change the lane is at least neutral to the deck you are playing. As such, I wouldn't recommend actually playing her on tempo. Due to her random effect though, she CAN also be used as a last ditch hail mary - a tactic most cards in the game lack - to the cheers of Tides everywhere.

Common Combos: Unlike other cards, because SWitch's effect deals with locations, her best combos actually interact with the lanes versus interacting with other cards. Playing her on a restricted location last minute has been mentioned, but you can also play SWitch on +/- locations on power to normalize it if you are playing a Cerebro deck. She can also work on overcentralizing locations such as the Nexus by making your opponent over invest into a lane that you can then ditch for a measly 2 energy. A final 100% meme use for SWitch is to drop her in a Wong combo so you can roll for Worldship to get the Galactus effect and basically destroy the other locations played. The last one really isn't a common combo, but you can see why I approve of this card.

Rank/Tier: C tier. SWitch is a card that doesn't have real combos into it, but being a 2 energy potential match winning surprise counts for something. Her effect is fairly niche since you also cannot control what Wanda changes the lane to, but decks that run her don't really care about that inconsistency. Still, this means it restricts her primarily to control type decks to deny an opponent a beneficial or potential match winning lane.

Most Used Decks:
- Sera Control
- Cerebro 3
« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 07:00:28 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2023, 03:34:18 PM »
Time for a card which I've already mentioned by name a few times:

Shang-Chi


Cost: 4
Power: 3 (Below Par by 3)
Ability: On Reveal - Destroy all of the opponent's cards in this lane whose power is 9 or greater
Ideal Turn to Play: Almost always turn 6. Theoretically, Shang is actually a 4-12+ IF his effect triggers. As the higher cost cards often have larger values, you are most likely to get to this value if you save Shang for the last turn. The issue if of course, he's bad for tempo. So if you whiff with Shang, you're almost certainly going to lose since playing 4 Energy for close to 0 benefit is terrible for your board state. There are some instances where playing Shang early is worthwhile, but those are much rarer. In addition of making it easier for Shang to trigger, saving him for Turn 6 also gives you the greatest surprise factor against an opponent - they have to guess on Turn 5s and 6s whether or not you HAVE Shang, which can lead to sub-optimal plays if they guess incorrectly.
Archetype: Tech. 100% Pure tech. Again, playing Shang for Tempo is a bad idea.

Uses: Where to even begin? Shang is like the premier example of an always relevant meta tech card because he checks you for playing too greedy. Cards that self-buff or combo cards that buff themselves to a million points and over all basically eat it to him. If you're in a position where you have 9+ power card that's unprotected going into Turn 6, the very first question you should ask yourself is: Does my opponent have Shang? The only two things holding him back are his awkward cost and bad power ratio on whiff.

4 costs in Snap have a very awkward relation on Round 6. On one hand, sometimes they can be immensely powerful like Shang because their effect can just completely shut someone down. On the other hand, without any discounts, only one 4 cost can be played on Turn 6. And if an opponent is playing a 6 cost while you are playing a 4 cost, chances are, you are getting out stated. You have to make sure you're single 4 cost play makes up for that Turn 6 tempo loss and then some because you're effectively losing 2 Energy over your opponent. To Shang's credit (and all other 4 costs), there is a card that can be used to reduce 4 costs down to 3 - Zabu. If you run any other 4 cost that may be important to play on 6 or is much more effective having an expanded turn window, Zabu almost becomes a staple as well for a deck slot. A common example is running Shang + Enchantress. Both tech cards that are 4 cost, but if their effect is relevant for the match, are basically tide turners and will win you the game.

To get the best use of Shang, you are best off revealing 2nd. Not only does this give you extra targets to hit, but it also means Shang's check doesn't happen until after an opponent's abilities have resolved for the most part. So if a card was sitting at 7 Power for example, and then an opponent plays something that gives it a +2 buff, playing first means Shang whiffs while playing second means you will hit and destroy it. The net power difference from a whiffed Shang and a Shang that hits is massive as you can see. If an opponent is playing a primarily reactive deck like a Control deck, they will basically be trying to lose priority the entire game. Certain other decks will carry Shang just as a check - mostly those that have a power ceiling, to ensure that you can't out-stat them. The greater the power creep, the more relevant Shang becomes.

Counter plays exist against Shang but can be quite awkward since he checks power and not an effect. You could Cosmo/Armor a lane to stop Shang 100% but that also comes with the caveat those effects apply to you too and can definitely backfire if you aren't careful. The easier way to get around Shang is to throw priority so your opponent has to reveal 1st. Ghost exists if you are bad at it but costs a card slot. Another cheeky example is using Invisible Woman and hiding your 9+ power cards behind her. Since Invisible Woman makes cards played after her in her lane "Not in Play", Shang will reveal first, then the game checks all the cards after Invisible Woman afterwards when the game ends. Of course, an opponent who has their own Invisible Woman or Ghost can offset this but both cards aren't cards you can just stuff into every deck. Staying behind 9 Power is also another way to skip the Shang check. Cards like Devil Dinosaur, where the power can fluctuate turn to turn can be manipulated in this way to dodge Shang.

Common Combos: Shang into Absorbing Man lets you basically play him in 2 lanes. While difficult to set up as it is a 3 card combo requiring Zabu, it's often game winning when you get it since kneecapping your opponent to 8 Power cards at most can be pretty restrictive. Similarly, Shang into Zola is a triple Shang that is absolutely disgusting but is also a 3-card combo minimum that usually ends up being 4 cards as it requires Mr. Negative to set up. Invisible Woman and then hiding a Shang behind it ensures you throw priority to make your Shang go off after the game ends. If an opponent doesn't have their own Invisible Woman, this basically guarantees your Shang will go 2nd and all the benefits that come with that. If you have Knull played previously, Shang into Knull creates an even bigger power difference because the destroyed card's power then gets added to your Knull.

Rank/Tier: A tier. Unlike SWitch, Shang is a card that will almost always be relevant. You see all those screenshots of people getting up to 1 billion power or whatever? If the losing player had kung-fu Asian Man and played him, those screenshots will never happen. He's bad when his effect doesn't apply but most decks will either try to cheat out more power or play cards that grow to enormous numbers. Shang basically says "lol get rekt" to all of them. Card destruction is generally very powerful - especially of your opponent's board. Maybe if Cerebro and Nimrod were more commonplace for example, we'd start seeing less of him.

Most Used Decks:
- Sera Control
- Cerebro 3
- Generic Destroy
- Negative
- Galactus
« Last Edit: August 25, 2023, 06:01:44 AM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2023, 05:55:34 AM »
Let's look at a well known Marvel figure next, who's also pretty damn good:

Professor X


Cost: 5
Power: 3 (Below Par by 6)
Ability: Ongoing - Locks this lane from further play (Cards in this lane cannot no longer be interacted with except for their power).
Ideal Turn to Play: Turn 5. Professor X is the first card I'm covering where his play window is extremely tight. He's strictly a Turn 5 play because his effect on Turn 6 is miniscule, whereas on Turn 5, he pretty much decides a lane. There are ways to interact with the power value thereafter, so it's not open and shut but traditional ways of moving cards or playing into the location no longer becomes possible. He's also the first card that we're looking at where, if ramped out, can become match deciding. Most players might not look for a possible Turn 4 Prof X or earlier if they have not seen that possibility before.
Archetype: Lane Lockdown. Pretty much the textbook definition of a lane control or Lock down card (even says it in his name!)

Uses: Unlike Shang and SWitch, Professor X is a card that can do several things, although his primary use is to lock down play space for you and your opponent. Playing Professor X is tricky. Since his stat line is so far BELOW par, playing him in the wrong lane can easily backfire on you by locking you out of a further chance to win the particular lane you've played him in. Therefore, you need to have a good idea of the possible plays from an opponent to reduce this risk. The other alternative is to make sure you play tall earlier so when Charles parachutes into the lane, the tempo loss doesn't kill you. Of course, dumping so many resources into one lane isn't efficient so it is best to do with just a few cards as you expand plays to a second lane.

Charles' effect is pretty unique because while other cards can stop you from playing at a particular spot, you may still be able to Move cards there. In this case, Professor X completely shuts the lane down, meaning can also no longer move in and out of the lane barring a certain exception. As such, you can also use him to tech against certain opponents who plan to dupe / destroy cards. Playing Professor X essentially shuts down Move decks and Nimrod for example, because they need that play space in order to generate power. At 5 Energy, that's a very steep tech card, but the ffect is so powerful, it is pretty much match ending when it comes out. For this reason, you will want to Snap before playing Charles against these decks.

Once Professor X is played on a lane, the only other ways to interact with it are by changing the power of the cards there. Cards such as Nova exploding or those that have reach effects like Mr. Fantastic, can further add power to the locked lane. Keeping this in mind is important because you *may* be able to steal the lane back on Turn 6 if you have previous plays set up to let you interact with the locked lane.

Common Combos: Because his effect prevents anything else from happening to the lane, Attuma - Prof X lets you put down a good 13 points before locking it. Raw Attuma is pretty risky but Prof X right after stops any chance of an opponent from launching a goblin or other junk at you and destroying your Attuma. Similarly, you can use Charles' lock down effect to save your own cards. This is one of the ways Spectrum Destroyer work as Destroyer's Reveal effect doesn't interact with any of the cards played with Professor X's lane due to his ability. Daredevil is Professor X's best friend as he will let you see your opponent's Turn 5 play, then counter react appropriately with what lane to lock down, if any. In these case, this combo can be match decisive since the game is 1 round away from ending. Ramping out Professor X can be very effective since as noted, a Turn 4 Prof X is not something most players expect. For this reason, Psylocke and Wave can also be good 2 card combos to play with Charles.

Rank/Tier: B tier. There is always some inherent risk to playing Professor X without any tools. A bad guess means you lose the lane and with only 1 turn left normally, there's not enough time to really course correct. However, his effect is just so powerful that even if he's not doing his primary job, you may still end up screwing an opponent over by locking him out of a way to interact with the cards in the lane.  Having the option to ramp or mitigate the risk with cards like Psylocke and Daredevil ensures he's a strong addition to the archetypes he plays well in.

Most Used Decks:
- Lane Lockdown / Control
- Spectrum Destroyer
- Thanos
- HighEvo
« Last Edit: August 25, 2023, 06:04:35 AM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2023, 03:56:40 PM »
Kitty Pryde



Cost: 1
Power: 2 (Par)
Ability: Passive - This card returns to your hand at the start of the next turn. When it returns to your hand, +1 power.
Ideal Turn to Play: Always Turn 1. Kitty is a "pump" or self-buffing card. She starts at par value but for everyturn you can float energy for her, she'll grow by 1. Assuming you keep doing this every turn in a 6 Round game, she becomes 1-7, which is pretty good. Of course, in truth, you are spending 6 Energy to get her there and a 6-7 isn't that impressive, but Kitty has other uses that make this "stat-line" worthwhile.
Archetype: Bounce. Should be pretty obvious.

Uses: Good low energy cost cards in Snap are immensely valuable. Most of them are locked behind particular archetypes or are in actuality, not that good. Kitty falls into the first category, but her ability is still good enough to let her play some utility roles making her a premier 1-cost card. She used to be even better before patches - +2 power per play but she loses her 2-base power. This in turn meant it was possible for her to grow to be a 1-12 (or 6-12 if you count the energy to get her there), which gave her a much higher ceiling.

What makes Kitty good is that she dodges some of the common trappings of a 1-cost card. Unlike Nebula or Sunspot, she pretty elusive for Killmonger to destroy her. Since she bounces back and forth into your hand, the opponent has to predict that Kitty is coming that particular turn and play Killmonger to counter. Another factor is that since she jumps back into your hand, you end up losing whatever power she gave you until Round 6 - meaning you are possibly losing priority and thus avoiding Killmonger and Shadow King that way. Her repeated "pay-for-play and buff" means you can also use her to trigger Round effects constantly - which can let you get around certain disruption cards or locations.  Other 1-costs cannot do this. Sure, you ARE paying 1 energy a turn for it, but you're also self-buffing so it's not a complete waste. And presumably, that 1 energy might be unused float otherwise. Because her ability is passive, Kitty also can't be stopped by common tech cards such as Cosmo, Enchantress and she'll usually flutter below Shang's check. This means stopping Kitty usually requires more unorthodox cards or abilities.

Kitty's obvious synergy is in bounce decks, where she can then be played to not only rapidly buff herself, but also be used to continuously buff cards like Angela, Collector and Bishop. However, she also has some hidden synergies with cards like Silk, letting you make her jump around constantly or with Moon Girl to double the number of Kittys you have in hand. Beast is her best friend since he can reduce her cost to 0, and let you buff her for free. And in the older versions, she used to work better with Shuri to bypass Shuri's limitation of needing to be played in the same lane. You can still do it nowadays, but her pump value is cut in half, so this is less effective and you will need some other support cards if you're intending to use her this way..

Her primary weakness is also one of her strengths. Because she will always return to your hand if possible, she's bad if you intend to use her in lock out type locations before Turn 6. Certain locations which close off after a certain round effectively means Kitty cannot anchor that lane for you since she'll jump back into your hand unless you are at the hand limit. Storm in particular basically shuts you down because not only do you now have less play space, but you can't use Kitty to hold that lane. Also, any card or effect that increases your cost by even 1 is a death sentence. No one is going to repeatedly bounce Kitty if she was even 2-cost, so Ice Man is one of your biggest fears.

In today's landscape, Kitty isn't as prevalent as she was when she was introduced, but that's also because Bounce has taken a big nerf stick after it enjoyed roughly 3 months of dominance. Still, if you are looking at a 1 cost to round out your deck, Kitty's a pretty great option alongside Nebula or Sunspot.

Common Combos: Kitty's best friends are Angela and Beast. Beast turns Kitty into a 0-X, where X is the final pump value. 0 Cost cards are even more valuable for their flexibility, let alone one that can still pump itself thereafter. Angela loves Kitty because she doesn't take up any playspace at the end of a turn as she'll bounce back to hand. This lets Angela get up to at least 8+ Power assuming you are always playing Kitty in her lane, which makes her quite good for a 2-cost. Armor also works to cover Kitty if you are afraid of an Elektra snipe or predicted Killmonger. Bishop gets a lot of value from any deck that has repeated cards to play so Kitty works very well with him too. Lastly, Collector's passive triggers every-time Kitty returns to hand. Having a combination of these cards lets you grow your board status pretty effectively for just 1 Energy a turn.

Rank/Tier: A tier. Kitty is pretty much an archetype defining card. Before she existed, Bounce was basically missing a couple of tools to really explode. Sure, you had like Falcon - Iron Fist - Human Torch but those were usually way more memey and required more set up and luck. Once Kitty was introduced, she basically became the face of Bounce decks. She's not so niche to be restricted to just Bounce, but that's certainly what most people think of when they see her being played, which should tell you something. Overall, just a good and versatile 1-cost card.

Most Used Decks:
- Bounce
- Zoo
- Shenault
- Sera Control
« Last Edit: September 06, 2023, 07:17:35 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2023, 03:26:10 PM »
We've had mostly good to decent cards so far, let's look at one that is not so good:

Black Cat



Cost: 3
Power: 7 (Above Par by 3)
Ability: Passive - If this card is still in your hand at the end of the round, discard it
Ideal Turn to Play: Good question! Black Cat's ability makes her all but unplayable except for Turn 3 onward...and that's assuming you play her immediately. Otherwise, discarding herself means that unless you top deck, you're probably not playing her in the traditional way. The issue is of course, on later turns, are you really just going to play a 3-7 that doesn't have any other thing going for it other than the stat line?
Archetype: Discard and only Discard

Uses: It's really hard to actually talk about Black Cat's uses because her range is so limited and her ability basically makes her near unplayable under normal circumstances, unless you are playing her the turn you draw her. So if you draw her on your opening hand or Turns 1-2, she's basically dead. The only real ways you get use out of her is through the use of a combo card. Due to the way she functions, you can't even pair her up with Zero to get rid of her effect. The only way to remove her passive is to get hit by an opponent's Leech. That should tell you almost everything in terms of her play use.

The only real thing worth mentioning is her role in Discard decks. The way those normally work is you need to play another card to discard one from your hand. Black Cat saves you the trouble of playing one of these since she discards herself. This gives your discarders other targets - which is important, especially when there is a key card you want them to hit.

Common Combos: Black Cat - Ghost Rider is a simple two card combo that comes out on Curve for 10 points, essentially turning him into a 4-10. But if you were going to do that, you might as well play a normal 4-10 that can be easier to set up and build around. It does technically mean you play Black Cat "for free" though, since you can then play another 3 Cost, and on 4, play Ghost Rider to get an extra card played. The other way of making use of Felicia is through Hela. Hela's ability lets you summon EVERYTHING in your discard pile. So here's the case where Black Cat discarding herself is now a plus. Now you can get an extra card to be played alongside Black Cat and basically means Hela is actually a 6-13+ when paired with Felicia. That's pretty good. The self discarding also helps gives Morbius +2 and if you are playing a deck with like Dracula and Apocalypse, then she removes herself from being a target, which helps but it isn't really a way to get her played.

Rank/Tier: D tier. Black Cat is what I considered to be a textbook case of a D tier card. Very narrow niche and even in its own archetype, is a questionable inclusion due to its borderline unplayability unless paired with card to combo play it. The inability to play her when you want to actually play her is a big negative, which is why her stat line is so strong. There are other cards in SNAP with good stat lines but bad effects that can usually be mitigated. Felicia is a special case where you just have to deal with it, which hurts her use a lot.

Most Used Decks:
- Hela Discard
« Last Edit: August 29, 2023, 03:06:50 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2023, 03:46:56 PM »
Gambit



Cost: 3
Power: 3 (Below Par by 1)
Ability: On Reveal - Discard a card from your hand to Destroy a card from your opponent's board. Ignore this ability if your hand is empty.
Ideal Turn to Play: Varies. Gambit typically wants to be played later because it increases the chances he hits a high cost card, meaning he wipes more potential points or cards with stronger effects. However, sometimes you want to play him as early as Turn 3. Especially if your opponent hasn't played much else since it can let you get rid of a pressure tool like Nebula or an support card like Zabu.
Archetype: Primarily Discard

Uses: Gambit's a real interesting card that has a lot of potential, but also a lot of drawbacks. Previously, he used to just be able to destroy your opponent's board even without any cards in hand. This current limitation hurts him because it limits more of what he can build around with. He did get +2 Power from his previous iteration, but no one was playing Gambit because of his power. His effect is actually really powerful because destroying cards on the field is really powerful. To make up for this, he had a paltry stat-line as a 3-1 previously; now he has this hand size limitation.

That doesn't mean the old Exodia combo is dead though, although it does typically mean Gambit gets combined into two mixed archetypes instead. Because Gambit needs a steady supply of cards to be able to blow up your opponents field, he needs cards that won't ever truly disappear from your hand. Two of these exist - one is Swarm, who will generate multiple copies of himself every time he is discarded. The other is Apocalypse, who will gain +4 Power and regenerate back into your hand every time he is discarded. Since you need one of the two, most of Gambit's usage becomes mixed into this Wong/Apoc Discard mold.

Outside of this Exodia combo, Gambit's usually better off played as a sniper. Because which card he destroys is random, the earlier he is played, the more likely he is to hit a definitive target. Problem: Most of the earlier played cards are just not important enough for Gambit to destroy. If on Turn 3, your opponent has only played something like Wave, sure, Gambit gets rid of her and nets you 6 points...but that's not going to stop something bigger and nastier coming the next turn. And if you play Gambit on 4 after that Wave, now you have a 50/50 on whether or not you catch the second card or just hit Wave. Newsflash: Hitting Wave if your opponent then drops say Magneto is a bad trade for you. The later he is played, the more likely Gambit hits something valuable, but also the chances of what he actually hits starts to decrease. This entire fluctuation between relevance and accuracy makes Gambit a real awkward card to actually use without comboing him, which is why the Exodia set up is so much more popular. That doesn't mean there aren't cards where early Gambit isn't worth it. If your opponent only has Lockjaw on 3 and you have priority? Gambit will snipe Lockjaw out of existence and probably win you the game on the spot.

Gambit has other issues other than his weird imbalance in terms of where he actually fits on the curve. Certain cards are either immune to him (Colossus, Armor) OR they directly benefit off of him from being destroyed (Wolverine, Nimrod, Deadpool). You could also just utilize him as a normal discard play but that's much less common due to his noted issues. He is a weird card where you can combo him to completely flip a match around, but he's also held back where he could also just be a dud play and brick. Much like his name, he ends up being kind of this "high risk, high reward" type card.

Common Combos: The mentioned Exodia Combo is the most common line of play. As noted, it wipes the opponent's board clean unless they have cards that stop him. This combo consists of Wong, Mystique, Gambit, Odin. Setting it up isn't easy at all and now with his hand size limitation, you need to add Apoc or Swarm into the mix too. Otherwise, Gambit into Ghost Rider is similar as with Black Cat, in that it allows you to freely play what Gambit discarded. Invisible Woman is a common pairing with discarders because you can limit what they discard until the end of the game and get more control. Gambit just has an added benefit where he's more likely to cause damage on Turn 6 but probably wants to be played out earlier. Hela deserves a mention for similar reasons since it lets you destroy a card late game with the added benefit of possibly not even needing to play Gambit at all. Finally, because of his cost, you can also run Gambit in Surfer shells, but that's much less common in general.

Rank/Tier: C tier. Gambit has the potential to create an amazing turn around, but it requires a lot of set up. He is too chancy usually to be played on his own, which drags him down and restricts him to fewer decks. In that way, he is a little like SWitch - kind of niche but can definitely swing you the game with some luck. Probably a little worse though since he costs 1 Energy more.

Most Used Decks:
- Apoc Discard
- Wong Combos
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
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<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2023, 03:31:15 PM »
Invisible Woman



Cost: 2
Power:3 (Par)
Ability: Ongoing - Cards you play in the lane after Invisible Woman do not reveal until the end of the game.
Ideal Turn to Play: Turn 2-3. After that, if you are playing Sue as your first card, you're going to be really behind on Tempo, so at that point, you might as well tech up to whatever 4 cost play you have available. That's not to say you can't play her later, but her value diminishes the later she comes onto the field.
Archetype: Support

Uses: Sue is a really powerful card that on the surface seems like she doesn't do much. Your immediate thought is probably, "oh, she hides what I play from the opponent, so I can confuse or divert what they are thinking my deck is". And yes, that is ONE way you can use her. It's also not a great way of doing it because any other cards you play outside of her lane will be reveal as normal and those can be information indicators anyway. Your opponent could also be playing a deck with cards that will give them information about you like Cable or Emma Frost. Or, even worse, you are playing in Conquest where the surprise element basically disappears after Game 1. Maybe Game 2, if you don't draw your win cons in the first game. If she isn't good for that obvious purpose, then what makes Sue actually powerful?

There are 4 ways of utilizing Invisible Woman, which gives her incredible versatility. These are as follows:

1) She can delay the actual play and reveal of the card later, which is extremely useful if you have something you want to play, but their effect isn't useful right now or could otherwise be detrimental. Discard is a big archetype for this, especially the Hela variant. These decks always run the risk of Hela being discarded by accident. If you play the random discarders such as Blade and Moon Knight BEHIND Sue, their effect doesn't go off until after the Round 6 has ended. This means you can safely play them behind her, then Hela as the last spot and get 2 extra free cards played from Hela with no risk. This is essentially also how the big killer combo of MODOK into Hela works. There are other examples and combos that utilize this feature but this is the obvious one.

2) She can be an awesome control tool for priority. Because cards played behind Invisible Woman do not count as being "In play", it means that the card's power isn't being added. If you want to reveal 2nd, such as when playing Shang, Invisible Woman gives you a way to continue building power while not gaining any points and accidentally getting priority. AND because the cards are not revealed at the end of the game, in the event where you DO gain priority, your cards played behind her still reveal last unless an opponent has Invisible Woman as well. This was especially relevant in the recent Bounce meta, where Kitty's ability meant her power always disappeared at the start of the round so it was very easy for Bounce players to lose priority and ignore your tech cards. Sue basically gets around this problem because it means the tech card now gets played AFTER the bounce player has dropped their load. Bye Kitty!

3) Because cards are not considered "In play" while Sue is hiding them, this means you can play cards with negative and disruptive effects on yourself without them actually hitting your board. Take Ebony Maw for example. Maw is a 1-7 - an extremely crazy statline with an extremely detrimental effect, where he prevents your side of the board from playing any additional cards into that lane. He also has a turn restriction where he can't be played after 3. These effects keep him balanced and you need to find ways to get around this since it is very easy to screw yourself if he is played within his (technical) 3 turn window. Enter Invisible Woman again. If you play Sue first, then Maw behind her on 3, now you've got 10 points in one lane, can still add cards to it (because Maw is technically not in play) and have 2 Energy to spare to play something else.

4) As in the comics, Sue can also act as a Shield for more valuable, potentially game winning Ongoing effects. Since cards after her are not in play, playing your Patriot or Blue Marvel behind her means that if an opponent tries to stuff you with a Rogue or Enchantress, Sue will eat their counter ability without any risk of the cards being hidden also getting effect. So if I play Invisible Woman, then Patriot and you want to silence my Patriot? You now need to commit potentially 2 tech cards to do it. That's a lot of commitment. Using Rogue and Enchantress - that's 7 Energy for 7 Power - a terrible trade on tempo just to shut it down.

Are there counters for Invisible Woman? Of course - it goes without saying. The issue is, you need to identify how she is being used to know if you have a counter existing and available for it. Cosmo shuts down any card that has an On Reveal, so you would play this to block Use 1 and Use 2's effects. For Use 3, you have to use an off-kilter tech card - Polaris. Polaris moves any 1-2 cost to the lane she is played, so once you move Sue, any cards played behind her will basically go off. And if those are the drawback cards, well, your opponent now has to pay the price for them. For Use 4, playing Echo shuts down any other Ongoing effect played there, so it forces the opponent to play those in a separate lane, where you can then try stuffing them. The downside is she's not super common as she is a new release.

Because no deck carries all 3 of the above cards, Sue typically goes unchecked in ladder. Her hide function along with her multitude of uses means by the time you get a whiff of what the deck archetype is, it may be too late to play your counter. The only deck that MAY carry all 3 are Surfer decks. These decks carry around 8-9 Three cost cards and a couple of One and Two costs to fill out the curve. So Echo/Polaris/Cosmo CAN appear as a package in them. However, when you need to devote 3 cards just to shut down ONE and you don't even know which of them would be relevant, it says a lot about how good that one card is.

Common Combos: Lots of choices here so we will just cover the common ones behind each of the 4 main uses for Invisible Woman:
1) Invisible Woman, MODOK, Hela - MODOK delays discarding your hand until the end of the game. At which point, Hela then plays them all for free. Pretty much a game winning combo 90% of the time, although can be stuffed by Cosmo
2) Invisible Woman, Killmonger/Shang Chi/Enchantress - As mentioned, delays your tech card until the end of the game. If your opponent doesn't have their own Invisible Woman, basically ensures cards in this lane reveal last. Enchantress might feel off, but there are ways to play it behind Invisible Woman which then results in a big turnaround.
3) Invisible Woman, Ebony Maw/Attuma/Maximus - More cards where their effects are detrimental but playing them after Invisible Woman erases the drawback. They are all above tempo as well and ignore most tech cards so an opponent playing Cosmo or Echo thinking they got you here is in for a reverse Uno surprise
4) Invisible Woman, Patriot/Blue Marvel/Ultron - Hides away what essentially amounts to a +16 Play in 2 lanes and a +14 in the lane this is set up on. If you draw Perfect curve, you can play Kazar elsewhere to get more points, or toss in Onslaught to go tall.

Rank/Tier: A tier. With that level of flexibility, it goes without saying that Sue is very good card, and she slots into many decks as a result. I imagine the uses for her are actually more likely to expand the longer the game goes on for. Her unique function of hiding and protecting cards means she will almost always have a home somewhere. Before hand, she was a 2-2, which meant at least a -1 to tempo for all the benefit she provides. Nowadays, as a 2-3, she basically doesn't even have that as a weakness. One of my favourite cards to use, if it wasn't obvious before.

Most Used Decks:
- Hela Discard
- Zero Shuri
- Patriot
- Cerebro 3
- Nimrod Destroy
- Surfer
« Last Edit: September 08, 2023, 03:57:07 AM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2023, 04:03:36 PM »
Mr. Negative



Cost: 4
Power: -1 (7 below Par)
Ability: On Reveal - Invert the Cost and Power values of all remaining cards in your deck (So Power becomes Cost and vice versa)
Ideal Turn to Play: Turn 3. You actually want to play Mr. Negative Turn 1 if possible. Often times, that isn't possible, so the best possible time otherwise you can play him is Turn 3. You may notice that he's a 4 cost. This makes Mr. Negative pretty much the only card with a play window that is smaller than his cost and he can't actually be played effectively without another support card. There are other reasons to not play Mr. Negative until at least Turn 3, mostly to do with Cube Equity and Snapping, but for just winning? The earlier the play, the better
Archetype: Negative. He's the name sake card!

Uses: Amongst all the Snap cards available, Mister Negative is one of the few cards where he actually cannot be played on his ideal window naturally. It'd be like if a card costed 7 in the game. This difficulty in getting him played within his window should probably tell you something - if his -7 from tempo value doesn't. Cards in Snap were not designed with Inverted values in mind, so when Mr. Negative hits the board, he is very powerful depending on how many turns are left. The more turns there are, the more inverted cards you draw and the chances you cause complete chaos shoots way up.

So how do we actually get Martin Li out within his window if you can't do so naturally? There are two ways and it is highly suggested you run both to ensure you can land the combo more often since Negative decks should not run Chavez. These are Zabu and Psylocke. Both cards have very neutered effects when inverted (Zabu has basically none) so they are dud draws if they remain in your deck after Negative hits the field. But because Negative's effect, like Professor X, is so powerful investing 2 slots to just getting him out is often worthwhile. Both Zabu and Psylocke can have other advantages in deck, so Negative is often designed with these 3 cards in mind as they are almost always glued together.

Playing Zabu drops Martin down to 3 Cost, and playing Psylocke gives you 4 Energy by Round 3. Both let you play Negative, but in the event that you miss, you should often have cards to support a 4 Energy play on Turn 3. For this reason, Jubilee can be a great support card in this deck as she is both 4 cost, has a low power value and gives you a last chance attempt at drawing Mr. Negative out by Turn 3/4. Magik is also often a choice, now that she also got drastically better. Being able to play 7 rounds versus 6 expands Negative's window by 1, which means you can play him on 4 as well, which does wonders at making him more functional. The rest of the deck then, is comprised largely with cards that have lower power values compared to their cost. Cards such as Ironheart and Zola are particularly notable because they become 0 Cost cards once Negative hits. And 0 Cost cards as I noted, are extremely flexible. So imagine a 0 Cost card but it has a 6 Energy cost effect. And that you can play multiple of them at the same time. That's what Mr. Negative lets you do.

The Negative Archtype comes with a lot weakness for all of its insane endgame potential. You can easily miss the window as noted, which weakens you drastically. Since your cards have very poor power values, the longer the game goes on without Mr. Negative hitting the board, the lower your chances of winning. Often times, it's better to just retreat by 4 if Mr. Negative hasn't hit the field yet because your board state would be just so weak on tempo. This isn't even getting to locations that mess with your curve, so your actual chances of playing a game out fully aren't very high. You can also get screwed over by a card that messes with your window such as Ice Man. Certain decks also just hard counter you really badly. For example, Darkhawk decks capitalize on adding more Rocks into your deck because it powers up their titular card. If you have a lot of rocks in your deck, then even after Negative is played, your chances of getting a dud draw rises. Lane Lockdown is also a big issue because you have almost no board presence before Turn 4. So if they do something like ramp out Professor X on Turn 4, you are in big trouble.

Why would anyone play this deck then? The answer lies in Snap's namesake mechanic. Mr. Negative has a strong cube equity rate because you will often snap with him early. Instead of later game snaps, you're often snapping on 3 if what you have on hand lines up. Your opponent then often has to determine whether or not to match your ante at that point and the only thing they might see is a Zabu or Psylocke - 2 cards that are both below tempo and doesn't reveal too terribly much about what your next play is. Negative coming out on 3 lets you actually compete with a lot of other good decks because inverted cards are just that good. At the same time, you aren't losing a lot of cubes because you are often retreating by 4 if he is still MIA somewhere in your deck. This strong cube equity ratio means you will often gain more than you lose, allowing a deck where you are often retreating to still be viable in today's landscape.

Common Combos:
There are two sets of combos with Negative - ones which get him played and one to play after he comes out. Building a deck around him that can function without him actually being played though is often the goal because you want secondary win conditions in a deck to keep them flexible.

To get Mr. Negative out, there are a few combo paths:
Zabu / Psylocke - Mr. Negative - This is the obvious one as described above
Zabu / Psylocke - Jubilee - Also described above. Jubilee gives you a last chance hail mary to call Mr. Negative about 20% of the time or so.
Raw Jubilee play - Also works as a Turn 4 play. Slightly better chance then the above but weaker end game.
Zabu / Psylocke - Jubilee - Absorbing Man - This 3 card combo basically gives you 2 other chances to bring out Mr. Negative on top of your draws into Turn 4. If he still doesn't come out at this point, he is basically at the bottom of the deck and you should probably retreat. As noted with the Raw Jubilee play, this leads to a weaker end game because you also have less cards to invert.

After Mr. Negative is out, some powerful combos you can set up:

Shang Chi -> Zola - Duplicate your Shang Chi and is pretty much the only way to land a triple Shang Chi.
Knull -> - Zola - If you are playing a Destroy variant of Negative, this lets you duplicate your Knull on the last turn without either of them having been played previously.
Wong -> Mystique -> Forge -> Black Panther -> Taskmaster - Results in 2 Giant cards at the end of the game ala Shuri. The thing that makes this disgusting is you can do it on the very last Turn as long as you've played certain pieces and depending on what is inverted. If you have previously played Wong and get Mystique/Black Panther/Taskmaster inverted, that the remaining 4 cards in the combo (0,2,4,0 respectively) on Round 6 for a massive point drop
Wong -> Mystique -> Ironheart -> Surfer - Similar to above. Often times, you will have played Brood previously in a separate lane. From there, again, depending on what you have inverted, the entire combo and be dropped on Turn 6, giving an opponent no idea what is coming.
Wong -> Mystique -> Ironheart -> Gambit - In the old days, this let you buff your side by +24 from Iron Heart AND destroy 4 of your opponent's cards. All on the last turn. Again. Needless to say, this was very powerful.
Jane Foster -> All 0 Cost cards + whatever - Jane fetches all your 0 Cost cards. Mister Negative creates 0 Cost cards. You can see where this is going. If you see Jane played after Mr. Negative, best just to Retreat.


Rank/Tier: B tier. Mr. Negative's effect is a game changing one and fundamentally broken because inverted card costs were not how cards were originally balanced. He's held back primarily by his inconsistency and existing counter play, but it is one of highest ceiling decks that can come out. The earlier he is played, the more likely the Negative player is going to win. 

Most Used Decks:
- Negative (Engine card)
- Negative Jane (Engine card)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 04:30:09 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2023, 04:42:25 PM »
Elektra



Cost: 1
Power: 1 (1 below Par)
Ability: On Reveal - Destroy a 1 Cost Card played by the opponent in this lane.
Ideal Turn to Play: 2-6. If there is one positive to Elektra, it's that her cost is low so she's easy to deploy alongside another card if you really want to play her. Often times, she's best played on 6, to then snipe out an opposing Kitty or Demon from Hood, but you could also play her on 2 to destroy an opponent's Nova early to prevent them from getting more than a +1 bonus.
Archetype: Zoo

Uses:
Elektra is an Series Pool 1 card that teaches you about destroying cards on an opponent's board. Early on, Zoo is a very powerful deck that lets you go wide and most often, 1-costs were played to consume as much space as possible. This gave Elektra the ability to be used a decent chunk of time because destroying an opponent's Rocket Racoon or buffed Hawkeye for example gave pretty decent returns. However, as your progress to Pool 2, Elektra immediately stops being useful. Why is that? Killmonger.

Elektra's has lots of issues as a card, but chief among them is just that she's completely obsoleted and made redundant by Killmonger. Sure, Killmonger costs 2 energy more so he's harder to play, but consider that Killmonger just kills all 1-costs on the field indiscriminately, he's much more effective at Elektra's job. You don't have to guess which lane to play her for starters, and even if you guess right, you're still taking chance if there is more than one 1 cost card in that lane. If you opponent has Angela in the lane and plays Kitty + Rock, Elektra has a 50/50 of taking out the rock instead of Kitty. And that is just so awful since not only did you miss destroying Kitty, now you helped the opponent by opening up even more playspace. At least if you played Killmonger, you would get both.

Getting into Pool 3 and beyond doesn't help Elektra because decks start getting more complex and the use of 1 costs start diminishing. One of the key things you learn about Snap over time is that Turn 1 just isn't that important and as a result, 1 cost cards, by and large are also not game stealers. There are a few exceptions (Kitty, Sunspot and Nebula are all potential win cons) but no one really cares about your 1-4 Rocket Raccoon. How much does that matter if someone is setting a Wong combo for thousands of points? Or using Carnage/Venom/Deathlok to destroy enough of their cards to make a Knull that has a 100+ power? Probably not a lot. This means on top of being outclassed by Killmonger, the times when she does become useful are just not very good. Even when Bounce was dominant, Elektra saw very little play, which should say everything.

Common Combos:
Not much unfortunately. She's primarily ran in Zoo decks to quickly flood your lanes, but everything you could do with Elektra, Killmonger just does ten times better. So play her beside Kazar and Blue Marvel I guess. Or better yet, just don't run Elektra after Pool 1.

Rank/Tier: F tier. In a different game, where the 1st turn is key or if there were more prized 1 drops, Elektra could be pretty solid. In the current state of SNAP though, she's always subject to getting left behind Killmonger's dust or just being power crept to oblivion. Oh well, that's dem breaks.

Most Used Decks:
- Zoo
« Last Edit: September 01, 2023, 04:51:09 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2023, 03:32:12 PM »
America Chavez



Cost: 6
Power: 9 (3 below Par)
Ability: Passive - This card is always drawn on Turn 6 and not before.
Ideal Turn to Play: 6 or None, depending on what the deck plan is. Chavez is very rarely actually played, but she is often included into many decks due to her ability. More on this below.
Archetype: Support

Uses:
Here is a card that is commonly included in decks but basically almost never actually played out. There are several other cards like Chavez that are only drawn on certain turns but Chavez is by far and away the best of them. Why? Because she only comes in on Turn 6. This gives you five turns where you are actually playing with a 11 card deck instead of a 12 card deck. In a game where deck sizes aren't big, that decrease in possible draws gives you a good boost to consistency. In this case, it's roughly a 4-5% increase in picking up a necessary card before Turn 5. That might not look like a lot, but if you're looking to hit a key combo before the last turn of the game or need a card played beforehand, Chavez's boost can mean the difference between actually getting the combo versus not. AND because she comes before the last turn is played, it means you get the advantage of seeing all your other draws before playing out a game and paying the full cube price on a bad draw.

There are some other interesting uses for Chavez - most commonly with Dracula discard type decks. In these decks, the goal is go down to just one card (either a pumped Apocalypse or Infinaut) and then when Dracula triggers at the game end, he hits only one target. Chavez does a few things here that aid this game plan. Aside from letting you picked up Dracula more often, you also get the benefit of knowing that on Turn 6, you will at least pick up a card with 9 Power. Placing any other card in her slot means you are gambling on that last draw to not be a terrible low powered card that doesn't give you any boost.

Chavez's mechanic is a bit more complex than what is actually stated. Basically, she starts at the bottom of the deck, then when turn 6 comes up, she automatically gets kicked up to the top of the deck and gets drawn then. Due to this function, she also pairs very well with Iron Lad and for some time, actually hard countered Cable. There are decks where Chavez isn't worth a slot because you want all 6 draws to give you a chance to hit something important. Negative decks are a great example of this because a 6-9 Chavez that comes only on Turn 6 MIGHT improve hitting a Psylocke/Zabu -> Negative set up, but then you are also guaranteed to brick one of your draws, which ruins the point of the deck. For any deck that wants to run tight combos or needs certain draws before Turn 6 though, Chavez is always a safe filler addition if you can't think of anything else.

Common Combos:
Because Chavez is commonly used primarily as a deck thinner, she's very rare used for actual card combos. Her best combo line would be somewhere in a SheNaut deck or one with Shuri and Taskmaster so she can be played down with more power behind her. Typically if your best play on Turn 6 is raw Chavez, you're probably going to lose lest your opponent's board state is somehow horrendous. Some cards that work really well with Chavez would be something like Bast, who wants to be played on Turn 1-5 and has no Turn 6 Window, but Chavez only comes in on 6 so is never at risk of getting hit by Bast. Iron Lad is another very strong card that appreciates Chavez since as noted, he will never hit her ensuring you will get one of the other effects remaining in your deck.

Rank/Tier: A tier. Never doubt the power of increasing a deck's consistency. Beyond that, Chavez coming in at Turn 6 also lets her work as a hand fixed in other decks means she'll pretty much always see some sort of relevance, even as the game grows.

Most Used Decks:
- Almost any deck that has more complex combos
- Wong Combos
- Apocalypse Discard
- SheNaut
« Last Edit: September 06, 2023, 07:12:36 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2023, 04:08:26 PM »
Hawkeye



Cost: 1
Power: 1 (1 below Par)
Ability: On Reveal - If you play a card on the same lane the next turn, this card gets +3 Power.
Ideal Turn to Play: 1. Hawkeye, similar to Kitty, is a card that will self pump. So he wants to be played as early as possible to give him the most time to grow.
Archetype: Bounce

Uses:
Your first thoughts at seeing Hawkeye might be that he's a better Kitty because his power can potentially reach up to 10. A 1-10 is pretty good! However, that is of course, a very naive view of the card that only looks at one's potential. Hawkeye getting up to 10 power is pretty difficult, and he's open a wide variety of tech cards that just flat out counter him. So unless your opponent is playing without any of them, Hawkeye is more realistically a 1-4, maybe a 1-7 if you get a good draw.

It's probably easier to outline all of Hawkeye's issues as a card before talking about his saving graces. First, being 1 cost means he's vulnerable to Killmonger. Unlike Kitty though who can jump back and forth into the hand for free or be repeatedly played into an Armor'd lane, Hawkeye can't do this. He doesn't automatically bounce back like Kitty and if you play him into Armor to bounce him, depending on the card, you could also end up bouncing Armor - which you might not want to do. So he's at a greater risk of being destroyed for starters. Second, he's also vulnerable to Shadow King. Kitty has this weakness as well, but as noted before, since Kitty jumps back to hand, her power isn't added for priority purposes, so she also dodges him much easier than Hawkeye. Third, Hawkeye's ability is an On Reveal, so he can get stuffed by Cosmo and then just end up being at whatever value he's played at. The cards that aid in bouncing him back are On Reveal as well, so if Cosmo comes out, you are likely losing the ability to further pump Hawkeye. But by far the worst weakness of Hawkeye is his ability is telegraphed - meaning your opponent will know which lane you are going to play in - lest you skip out on the notable +3 bonus power. That might make sense in some cases, but more often then not, telling your opponent you are going to play a card there is just asking for trouble. You might be eating something like a Gamora or worse - a Negasonic Teenage Warhead. Heck, even Elektra can eat Hawkeye's face.

To Hawkeye's credit though, he isn't completely useless. Jumping up by 3 Power at a time gives him notable threat value and he's cheap enough to be played out easily, which helps with Cerebro decks that use low power numbers or Zoo decks as at they often require flooding to pose any real chance of winning. But with his many problems, and only 2 other cards to support him jumping back into the hand, he's very unlikely to get to his full potential. To add insult, because his ability requires the NEXT TURN, you can't even dump him plus some other cards on 6 in the same lane to get the boost. He specifically relies on a next turn card play to see it. All this means that while Hawkeye has some merit, he's often just not played in favor of other cards that don't have his plethora of issues. Like, why bounce Hawkeye when I can bounce the Hood for multiple Demons or Iron Fist + Human Touch, which gains equal power but doesn't restrict me to a lane location?

Common Combos:
Being a one cost, Hawkeye obviously works well with Kazar and Blue Marvel since he aids in flooding the board quickly with his low cost. To enable Hawkeye to greater heights though, you'll want to pair him with Falcon and Beast - the two bounce enablers. This lets you get up to a potential +10 Power on Hawkeye, which isn't too shabby. Hawkeye can also work somewhat with the other Guardians of the Galaxy. Because you telegraph that you are playing in that lane, you might as use that to your advantage and if your opponent's disruption relies on being in the same lane, then at least they get their On Reveal Proc too. Other good cards are cards that can Move after playing so you can maneuver somewhat around Hawkeye's lane restriction. Nightcrawler, Iron Fist, Ghost Spider are other 1 cards that can assist or you can play something like Captain Marvel who will automatically move at the end of the game if need be.


Rank/Tier: D tier. Hawkeye just isn't very good. He's not completely useless but having a ton of weaknesses like Wong without Wong's ability to basically be match ending is going to cause some issues. Adding to the fact he's often facing stiff competition in the form of better bounce targets, and Hawkeye loses a lot of relevance once you step out of Pool 2.

Most Used Decks:
- Zoo
- Bounce
- Cerebro 4
« Last Edit: September 06, 2023, 07:16:04 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2023, 03:48:00 PM »
Aero



Cost: 5
Power: 8 (1 below Par)
Ability: On Reveal - Move the last card your opponent played this turn into this lane.
Ideal Turn to Play: 5-6. Despite being a 5 cost, Aero can actually be used as a powerful finisher, since she also has decent enough power. However, her ability is what seals it for her to be used in the last stages of the game to ensure an opponent cannot come back and steal a lane.
Archetype: Ramp / Lockdown / Movement

Uses:
Probably my favourite card in the game next to SWitch. Aero isn't as strong as when I first started playing, but she's still a pretty solid card with a powerful ability that can seal the deal when used. Her old version was a more definite variation on that idea because she would move EVERY card played that turn into the same location, letting you lane ditch pretty effectively. With only 1 card now though, you need a little set up or be aware of what an opponent may be playing to use her.

Let's talk about her ability which is her real selling point. Aero moves an opponent's card into the lane that you chose for them. Typically, you want to play Aero with priority for maximum effectiveness, but there are situations where you can play her without and still make do. These are typically more with Ongoing card vs. On Reveal cards, although messing up an opponent's formation post Reveal can still be detrimental. If an opponent tries to play a Professor X down on their Attuma lane and DOESN'T have priority, playing Aero means you just won a lane. And to add insult to injury, if they were playing something like Spectrum Destroyer and was hoping to use Charles to protect their cards from a Turn 6 Destroyer, well that plan is out the window now completely. You can also use her to move cards away from a stack. Say an opponent has Wong down and going into 5, they are going to play White Tiger to create 2 Tiger tokens, then looking to finish with Odin. If you Aero on 5, you can move White Tiger away from the Wong stack and make White Tiger spawn a Tiger token in a bad location - like say directly on the Wong lane.

However, her ability can also be a game finisher, extending her window to 6. Because she will move a single targeted card, if your opponent isn't aware of Aero in the deck, having Aero on 6 can basically nullify a large single 6 drop like a boosted Apocalypse or Infinaut. What good is 20 power if it is already played in a lane you are winning and there are no tied lanes? You still lose the game - and that's what makes Aero so strong. You can also combo Aero in this fashion by lane ditching after. Using Ghost Spider after Aero means you can force move an opponent's card to a lane you don't care about, then pull her back into a lane you are contesting. Since she also moves cards, she can also be used to boost Kraven or proc Kingpin's rampage on 6. Her 8 power gives her some oomph such that she may still be able to contest a lane by herself. Playing down Aero into an empty lane can still stop an unexpected Galactus for example. This makes her fairly versatile although unlike Invisible Woman, she has defined archetypes where she obviously works better in.

Aero's main weakness is her "last card only" restriction. Most decks by Turn 5 or 6 are often putting down several cards either through cost reduction or setting up a mean combo like Mystique + Forge on Wong. To get around this, Aero wants to be played alongside either Sandman or Wave - 2 cards which lock out both players from playing more than 1 card. If you are in the lead on 5 after a Wave and are winning 2 lanes, Aero is a 100% Win con. On the other hand, cards that have a widespread effect like Dr. Doom or can be played for cheap like Wasp are both good counters to Aero. And as noted above, you will often want to have priority to maximize Aero's effectiveness. Playing Aero in the Mystique + Forge example does nothing if Forge lands on the board first. Your opponent is still going to get a +12 power trigger on their next card.

Even though Aero has been weakened since I started playing, she's still a solid card - just not a "MUST INCLUDE" now, which *does* help her in some way. As her popularity and strength waned down, players nowadays don't think about Aero as much as a tech counter or control tool, which can land her some pretty big surprise wins when she comes out.

Common Combos:
Wave + Aero is a guaranteed way to win the game if you are ahead by Turn 5. Since Wave locks every card to 4 cost, your opponent will be only able to play 1 card, which means Aero is a 100% way to control where it goes. Sandman does something similar. For this reason, both are often played beside Sandman in a deck known as "Sandman Ramp", where the goal is to ramp out quickly and be ahead by 4, so that when Sandman/Wave comes down on 5, your opponent can't make a comeback and therefore lose to the Aero play 100% of the time. Kingpin also appreciates Aero because she can set him up to destroy whatever is played on 6 if they don't respect him. In this way, it puts the opponent in a psychological dilemma and they have to play WIFOM in terms of where and how their Turn 6 play should go. She can also help boost Kraven or be used as lane ditcher with Iron Fist or Ghost Spider when set up.

Rank/Tier: B tier. Gone are the days of Aero dominance, but she's still a strong choice to include in certain decks. The ability to move an opponent's card with choice is a powerful one and Aero can be used to set up game winning tricks. As she isn't played as frequently nowadays, you're more likely to hit these in ladder, where an opponent is less likely to see her coming.

Most Used Decks:
- Ramp
- Lane Lockdown
- Control
- Movement
« Last Edit: September 08, 2023, 03:51:36 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2023, 06:43:24 PM »
At the suggestion and request of my bestest buddy, Grefter. The man himself,

DR. DOOM



Cost: 6
Power: 5 (7 below Par)
Ability: On Reveal - Summon a Doombot token into each other location (if able). Each Doombot has 5 power as well.
Ideal Turn to Play: Anywhere from 1-6, but most likely 6 because you won't have the energy most of the time until then. Don't let Doom's low base power fool you. He's realistically a 6-15 with virtually no downsides because he's adding a 5 powered card in each lane when played. As a result, he's often a safe card to play since he lets you place a moderate amount of power in each spot.
Archetype: Ramp / Lockdown

Uses:
Doom is good. Real good. If you were to isolate every card from each other and just look at them individually, Doom is probably the strongest card in the game as it can beat basically every other card in the game other than Galactus. There aren't that many cards that hit all 3 lanes at the same time, let alone with a decent amount of power. Some of them, such as Living Tribunal basically only "add" 3 power. Others are like Ultron split it such that you get a 8-4-4 split. Doom's 5-all makes him apply an equivalent amount of pressure to each lane, which in turn makes him a threat regardless of which lane he is played in, even if you 'guess' wrong. Of course, this is taking it in a very naive view of the game, but even in the grand scheme of things, Doom is still excellent.

You can't get past Doom's theoretical value. A 6-15 is insane by SNAP's standards. There are only a few other cards in the game that beat or tie this. These include Destroyer (Destroys all other cards on reveal), Infinaut (forces you to skip a turn to play - extremely telegraphed as a result) and Orka (6-16 but requires that only he is in that lane). Doom basically doesn't have any of their drawbacks. He is just a good value 6 cost card to play, or as I like to call it - Safe. Doom is a safe bet because he lets you slam out a decent amount of power in each lane without any real set up. To top if off, he's safe from Shang and Aero - tech cards those other 6 cost cards are vulnerable to, which widens when he can be played considerably.

The absolute wacky thing though is that Doom can actually be worth even more if you've supported him in the right deck or the right set of cards. His tokens are abilityless cards so they can be boosted by Patriot for example. All of sudden, Doom is now a 6-19. If you have Mystique set up? 6-23. If you are playing some weird deck variation like Negative Patriot (because Doom's cost can benefit from inversion), he's now a 5-18 that can be played on the last turn WITH Patriot for a 5-22. His symmetrical power spread also means he's an amazing Cerebro 5 finisher, even if a bit telegraphed. This is a card that isn't just strong on it's own - it is a strong in a variety of archetypes as well, which makes Doom quite flexible on top of being safe.

One other notable thing about his ability is the Reach. Doom is the first card I've covered so far which uses a unique play term. To "Summon" a card is not the same as to "Play". This means it can bypass certain location triggers such as Death's Domain, which destroys any card PLAYED into the lane but not a card that is SUMMONED into it. The reach makes him an excellent companion in Lockdown type decks where you restrict where an opponent is able to play. Sometimes these effects are symmetrical, but thanks to Doom, you can still load it with another 5 power. Not all decks have reach options, so if your opponent doesn't have one, that's it. Doom basically will steal the lane for you. And his 5 power means you can't be easily chumped either. Sure, you'll lose a 50/50 with White Tiger if it jumps to the wrong spot. But you'll stop Nightcrawler, Mister Fantastic, unboosted Ultron and tie Storm + Juggs combo, amongst others if they can't add anything else to it.

Of course, Doom has his share of weaknesses as card. His actual body being only 5 power means that the location you play him in will probably fall behind in terms of tempo. And even though he is a 6-15 on paper, in practice, he's more like a 6-10 because you only need to win 2 lanes to win. If he can consolidate that power into another spot once you know which one needs more would obviously be ideal, but of course, that would make him pretty broken instead of just being 'balanced but very good'. We can't win them all, but Doom is certainly in a good spot if one has to consider overall game winners.

Common Combos:
Sandman -> Doom or Wave -> Doom is an extremely powerful line of play where you lock out an opponent's ability to play more than one card but apply pressure to all 3 lanes yourself. Unless the opponent has their own Doom or another card that can exert pressure in more than 1 spot like Klaw, this is basically match ending since your opponent cannot cover as much ground as you are. To seal the deal of course is to play Odin on top of Doom to call forth another batch of Doombots. Because of Doom's reach, he's able to complement a variety of other lockout cards such as Goose and Storm. If your opponent doesn't carry other cards with reach himself, you can now add power to a restricted spot without worry and sneak away a win that way. Since Doombots function as abilityless cards, they can also be buffed by Patriot if you are playing with a more tall version (versus the Ultron one). So Patriot -> Doom is also a legit ending combo to slam a bunch of power out to each lane.

Rank/Tier: A tier. There is no shortage of decks you can Doom to because other than his flexibility, he's also safe. In other words, he is a "Good Cards" stable choice if you are looking to round a deck for a solid finisher option. Certain decks such as Apocalypse Discard have better archetypal choices and those are often the go-tos instead. But if say you have an option or choice? Doom often makes that list and he will often be the safer and less risky version of a particular deck. Ultron vs. Doom in Patriot is a key highlight of this as Doom can be played with priority whereas Ultron cannot.

Most Used Decks:
- Any deck looking to have a "Safe" option
- Ramp
- Lane Lockdown
- Lockjaw Lotto
- Hela Discard
- Wong Combo
- Patriot
- Cerebro 5
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 07:38:05 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2023, 04:15:35 PM »
And now, for another Tide approved crazy train wreck of a Card,

Agatha Harkness



Cost: 6
Power: 14 (2 above Par)
Ability: Passive - Automatically starts in your hand at the beginning of a game (doesn't count as a draw). As long as Agatha is in your hand, the AI will play the game for you.
Ideal Turn to Play: The earlier the better. Remember when I saw Mr. Negative was a card that had a window lower than it's cost? Agatha is another. She's a 6 cost card that you want to get out of your hand ASAP.
Archetype: Agatha (Namesake Card!)

Uses:
Have you ever wanted to be so lazy but still grind for cheevos in a game? Then you might be interested in a card like Agatha. This card is pretty infamous in SNAP because while there are different levels of AI, the one assigned to Agatha only has one basic rule: Play Agatha whenever possible. This means that your Turn 6 will always be Agatha Harkness under normal circumstances. The other 5 turns? Who the hell knows? The AI makes random decision - might not play on the curve, might drop cards into bad locations, might even play cards that counter each other. It just does anything it wants other than this one rule. In short, playing Agatha is literally telling the game you give fuck all about actually playing. You're just there to farm missions, events and maybe Season Pass XP.

However, with every bad card people comes the "how can we make this work" type of people. People like yours truly who will embrace the awful and then find ways to play around the card's deficiencies and utilize as much of its strengths as possible. Despite Agatha's major set back, she DOES have a couple of notable features. For one, Agatha Harkness never uses up a draw. She will always start in your hand but she doesn't count as one of the 3 opening cards, meaning you actually have an opening hand of 4 and a remaining deck of 8. If we now add America Chavez to this deck, he essentially have only a 10 card deck. This ups your card draw consistency pretty noticeably, but you're still left with Agatha in your hand.

That's where Agatha's draw comes from. How do you take the remaining 10 cards and make it such that you can actually win? Players quickly found out they can advantage of Agatha's AI by cheating her out. Sure, Electro will let you play her on 5, but by then, its pretty late in the game. And having your Turn 5 locked into Agatha and your Turn 3 locked into Electro isn't a great plan. As such everyone used Wave to enable Agatha to quickly play herself out by 4. This gave you 2 turns instead of 1 to then turn things around, which was more doable. Other players found that just getting rid of her would also work, so more lists added Sif and now Loki. Including all 3 of these cards in meant you had a 97% chance of getting rid of Agatha on 3 (or 4 with Wave) - drastically improving your late game turns.

With Chavez, this meant now you get 7 additional spots to fill to make up a win con. The increased draw consistency because of Agatha and Chavez then helps in actually draw it to win. Thus, there is the irony of playing Agatha. You are playing with a card that randomly makes plays for your but in return, you actually get better draw consistency then your opponent. So if you can actually wire out a plan that works on turns 4-6, you're actually in pretty good shape to actually win. Unfortunately for Agatha though, Turn 3 is usually the most important turn in SNAP. And needing to sacrifice that turn to get Agatha out is a significant drawback since all your plays have to be decided with only half the game remaining. But for a card that people generally dunk on, Agatha has more going on than first meets the eye. She'll never be competitive, but you can make her work somewhat and be playable.

Common Combos:
Chavez + Agatha is a super common deck pairing as noted above. If you're playing Agatha, you MIGHT as well take advantage of the one thing she can give you which is increased draw consistency! Otherwise, playing with Agatha is all about getting Agatha out of your hand. So you'd think Ramp would be a good option, but that often leaves you with too little time to course correct or play anything else. So the only ramp card that DOES work is Wave. Wave to Agatha lets you get Agatha out on 4, and her +2 above tempo means that if you are comparing just 6 drops, yours is at least bigger. A second common way of getting Agatha out is with Lady Sif. Using Sif to Discard, then Ghost Rider to recall Agatha means you don't have to sacrifice Agatha's cool 14 Power just to get rid of her. The final way is the newly introduced season's pass card, Loki. Loki will replace your entire hand with your opponent's on 3. So unless the opponent is ALSO playing Agatha (topkek), you'll drop her out of your hand and still have the next 3 turns while being +1 on tempo. Taskmaster can be useful in these decks too. He's a 5 cost, so won't interfere with Sif or Agatha's AI and can be played after Agatha to copy her for another 14 Power for 5 cost - not too shabby.

Rank/Tier: D tier. Agatha is a meme deck, but people have made her work in Conquest and Ladder, so she's not complete garbage. More than anything, she is a fun deck design challenge - how can I make a deck where the AI is playing randomly for me for the first few turns actually playable?

Most Used Decks:
- Agatha
« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 07:00:56 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2023, 03:12:37 PM »
Let's look at another dumpster tier card

Angel



Cost: 1
Power: 2 (Par)
Ability: Passive - When a card on your field is destroyed, replace it with this card automatically if it is still in the deck.
Ideal Turn to Play: None. You never actually want to play Angel. His whole worth comes from being able to thin out your deck by automatically being played.
Archetype: Generic Destroy

Uses:
My earlier post about Elektra might have seemed harsh when I mentioned that 1 cost cards are often not game stealers. So far, I've only written about Kitty Pryde and Hawkeye so your immediate thought might be that at least 1 costs can grow, they just take varying amounts of effort and draw luck. Not so. Let me introduce you to Angel. Angel is just a 1-2 that doesn't get any stronger on his own. In fact, to even get any use out of him, you have to be playing with a deck that destroys other cards. On its own, this isn't a problem. The Destroy archetype in SNAP is actually pretty strong on its own because it can snowball into a massive Turn 6 power dump and they have some tricks up their sleeves to keep you guessing (Knull, Death and Zola all have some shenanigans they can pull out). No, the issue with Angel is that his ability might as well not be an ability. It just doesn't do anything half the time.

Let's look at it a bit more closely. To get Angel's ability to trigger, you have to destroy another card first. If you are playing on the Curve, this means another 1 cost card, so on average, you are destroying a 1-2 card, then replacing it with another 1-2 card. So on it's own, it doesn't actually do much for your board state. But then you read the second part of his ability which requires him to be still in the deck. And here is where we have a problem. Sure, if you get his ability to trigger, Angel basically thins himself out of the deck for you. But when you don't and you draw him (about 50%) of the time, he is basically a dead draw. Like I guess you CAN play him for as a 1-2 power, but 1-2s without an ability are basically really awful since they act as clutter and jam up your board. There is a reason Quicksilver is often considered a beginner's trap.

Keep in mind, this is also assuming you are playing on the curve and destroy as early as possible on Turn 2 (with Carnage). The later you get your first Destroy to function, the worse it is for Angel. Not only does your chance of drawing him increase, but also now you are likely not just destroying a 1-2, but maybe more of a 2-3 or more. And when you start destroying cards with more power than 2 (which is a lot of them), Angel basically doesn't even replace the power you lost on the board. Some cards such as Shuri, likely don't care if you destroy them because they are also 2 power, sure. But these are often backed by powerful abilities when they are played. Angel doesn't - he is functionally an abilitiless 1-2 if he doesn't fly in from your deck.

There are some fringe cases where Angel can be used creatively. Like if you drop your Deadpool into Death's Domain, it will destroy Deadpool and return him to your hand and Angel will fly in and land in that lane without fear of destruction since Angel is summoned from the deck. But again, this hinges entirely on whether or not he is drawn. And that's just too chancey to really rely on. His effect is wholly underwhelming when it triggers and god awful when it doesn't. You're better off running almost anything else - even in Destroy and Zoo - to replace him.

Common Combos:
Not much really. There isn't a way to guarantee Angel stays in your deck, so you're just gambling and hoping he isn't actually drawn. Including a card like Quicksilver to increase the chances of him staying in the deck isn't a solution since you are replacing one bad card with another bad card just so you can get the first one to trigger. In the decks that you would think he would fit, there are better choices always available so Angel doesn't even show up in those. You could play him in Zoo and Cerebro 2 for example, but both would be inferior versions that just used a better card. About the only combo you can really do him with is to immediately eat him with Venom if you count that as a combo since his free play and +2 power are never bad things for symbiote. I guess he ups Death's cost reduction too, but yeah.

Rank/Tier: F tier. Look out world. Here comes a card that isn't even played in a deck of his own archetype because he literally doesn't do anything. Pretty much any other card would be an improvement over Angel.

Most Used Decks:
- Generic Destroy
« Last Edit: September 13, 2023, 10:59:58 PM by Tide »
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Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2023, 03:46:04 PM »
Goose



Cost: 2
Power: 2 (1 Below Par)
Ability: Ongoing - Neither player can play any cards costing 4, 5 or 6 in this lane.
Ideal Turn to Play: 2-3. The whole point of Goose is to shut down big cards from entering the lane. If you place him out on 5 in the same lane as an opponent's Gamora, you've probably actually just screwed yourself.
Archetype: Lane Lockdown

Uses:
On paper, Goose's effect is pretty strong. Shutting down 4 to 6 cost cards from entering a lane means your opponent can't put down big guns to try and take it. Their 1 to 3 cost cards might not be any sort of anchors, which can then make stealing a Goose'd lane more difficult. If your opponent's hand is badly skewed with top heavy cards, it can basically shut them out from playing much of anything. In practice, it's a little more "somewhere in-between" because Goose's effect isn't on the base cost but rather, the current cost. What this means is that if you have any cost reduction type cards or effects, they can go below 4 cost and sneak themselves into a Goose'd lane that way. Some cards like She-Hulk and Stature have big discounts and have pretty bulky power (9 and 6 respectively). So if they sneak into your Goose lane, it can be pretty unpleasant to try and contest that with just 1 to 3 cost cards. On the other hand, any card that increases cost above 3 can make Goose now a gatekeeper. Playing Wave after Goose basically locks the opponent from being able to play in that lane for a turn. Likewise, Ice Man can be pretty disruptive by bumping up a 3 cost to 4, and now all of a sudden restricting it from play to the Goose lane. Of course, Movement cards also bypass Goose after being played elsewhere. So Vision is not your friend if you are playing with Goose.

Don't get me wrong though. Goose can absolutely restrict play space and stop an opponent from putting their plan into motion. If you play Goose, then Storm on 3, you can pretty much shut down 2 lanes if your opponent is top heavy, giving them only 1 lane to work with. And while the effect of both cards will hit both players, you will likely have a deck tailored to this lock down effect, so you can quickly compromise an opponent's position without hitting yours. Just that you should never catch your chickens before they hatch and Goose is a good example of this. It's too easy to think you've locked a lane down only for an opponent to then play Doom and steal the locked lanes back for example. Or in this case, maybe a discounted She-Hulk.

Goose works best when the majority of your deck is filled with low cost cards so you don't care about its restriction. For this reason, he's often a staple in Surfer decks and Cerebro 2 decks because the common tech cards used against them are either the 4 cost Enchantress (which can now no longer be played) or the 3 cost Rogue (but it can only steal one effect randomly). Goose isn't as good of a guard as Invisible Woman, but his cost restriction effect on the lane can be better in some cases. If an opponent has an Infinaut or HE Hulk, Invisible Woman isn't going to save you unless you've teched Shang Chi into the lane. Goose meanwhile stops either card from even being played unless your opponent can give them a -3 Cost. And if they CAN do that, you probably should just retreat anyway because they likely have even crazier combos waiting. 

At the end of the day, Goose has a very specified niche and very specific decks where he works in. It doesn't mean an opponent can't get around its effect, but it can make things very awkward for them since they could essentially lose 1/3 of their play space. As long as you are aware of some of its failings, Goose will carry its own weight in the decks it was designed for.

Common Combos:
As mentioned, Goose can be used to protect your cards. Common pairings include Goose + Patriot, Goose + Luke Cage or Goose + Cerebro. In all cases, the combo shuts down Enchantress as a counter and turns Rogue into a 50/50. Echo can still be used as a counter though if you have priority, they will land first and basically bypass her. Otherwise Goose + Jean Grey can be very infuriating because it forces an opponent to have to drop a 1-3 cost into Jean's lane assuming they have a 1 to 3 cost card in hand, leading to suboptimal plays. Goose + Storm can put a lot of early pressure onto an opponent as it can possibly shut down 2 lanes down if played in separate spots. Iron Fist deserves a mention since he can knock Goose into locations that would otherwise be impossible to play it in. Goose into Crimson Cosmo wins you the lane if an opponent doesn't have any reach. A very powerful 2 card combo is the Goose Lock, where you play Goose first, then play Wave later. It basically locks your opponent from being able to play into that lane, since Wave hardlocks all cards to 4. If you've already secured the Goose lane, it effectively acts as a 1 turn Professor X and can win you the game.

Rank/Tier: C tier. C is for Cat and Goose is a cat. Perfectly logical. In all seriousness - it's effect can be pretty powerful but it's best played with some other tools because there are multiple ways to bypass Goose's effect. 2 Power doesn't give you much to help win a lane after all.

Most Used Decks:
Surfer
Cerebro 2
Lane Lockdown
« Last Edit: September 14, 2023, 08:31:50 PM by Tide »
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Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2023, 04:09:27 PM »
The Infinaut



Cost: 6
Power: 20 (8 Above Par)
Ability: Passive - You cannot play this card if you played a card on the previous turn
Ideal Turn to Play: 6. Though realistically, if you are using the Infinaut, you are probably cheating him out, so the play window is pretty much "Never". Turn 6 is still better though because an early Infinaut gives clear indication of what lane an opponent should avoid and marks a clear target on him for Shang.
Archetype: Anchor/Shenaut (Namesake card!)

Uses:
Hey kids, do you like BIG numbers? I hope you do because that's what the Infinaut brings. He's a massive 20 power card, beating basically every other card in the game on raw power, albeit with a very notable drawback that requires giving up your Turn 5 in order to play. However, 20 power is 20 power and Infinaut can often win lanes on his own if you are just competing on raw tempo alone.

Because of his harsh drawback of essentially forcing you to skip a turn, most decks that run Infinaut will actually NOT play him out traditionally. Like sure, you could do the whole "wait on Turn 5, then play him on Turn" 6 as intended, but when you have other ways of getting him on the board, that's probably the last way you are going to actually play him. Why effectively pay 11 Energy, when you can cheat him out with Lockjaw for 3, or Jubilee for 4? Or heck, spend 6 Energy with Hela and possibly get him into a restricted location? Oh but those are randomized! You can't tell if you will pull him out from Lockjaw for sure. And while that IS true, what if I told you, there ARE controlled ways you can summon him back? For example - play Lady Sif into Ghost Rider and you will recall the Highest Cost card you just discarded. If the only card in your hand is Infinaut, well, Ghost Rider is effective a 4-23.

Even if you don't like those methods, you can build a deck around Infinaut. You just need to focus on decks where Float is often a thing that exists. Sunspot is often paired with Infinaut for this reason. Skipping Turn 5 becomes less of an issue when you know that 5 unspent Energy will power up Sunspot to a 1-5+. Similarly, She-Hulk can make use of the extra float and reduce her cost of play by 1 for every Energy unspent. And while you can't play Infinaut AND She-Hulk on the same turn, if you find a way to gain additional Energy or have an added Turn 7, all of a sudden, that becomes possible and you end up with a massive point slam at the end of the game. Added Bonus: Because you skipped a turn, your opponent will likely regain priority, which means a lot of the tech cards that can counter your Infinaut will no longer be effective.

There are other fringe benefits to having Infinaut as well. He's the poster child of being a Spider-Ham or Leech guard. When your opponent plays those cards, they will often disrupt combo decks or engine cards which can be match decisive. Not the Infinaut though. Thanks for the "free" 6-20! Even if you don't end up playing him, losing his turn restrictions opens up your Turn 5, which now means you can actually do something like play another card that can BE effective and turn the game around then.

Does he have weaknesses? Sure. The Infinaut's largest problem is that he's extremely telegraphed because of his restriction. Most players WANT to play cards. And more often than not, there is always something to do, especially that late in the game. So if your opponent skips Turn 5, it becomes a pretty big tell that they are saving up for a huge Turn 6. If they have corresponding pieces on the board like a Sunspot, you should 100% expect an Infinaut or She-Hulk. Being forced to skip Turn 5 also means it is hard to be flexible. You can't play a tech card on 5 and then play Infinaut on 6. So if your opponent is setting up a deadly combo, you almost always have to sacrifice Infinaut as a dead card. This is almost always why he is cheated out instead. Sure, the randomized nature most of the time isn't ideal. But that at least gives you some maneuverability if the opponent does something that can top your big boi.

Truth be told, I think the Infinaut is probably undervalued. He's not for every deck, but at the end of the day, 20 power is a lot. And as the game gets more complex with more cards are being added, there are likely going to be more and more ways where his restriction becomes less and less of an issue. And when that happens, he's just a "free" 6-20, which will overshadow other 6 cost cards where power is their main selling point like Giganto. Time will tell if I'm right. For now though, he's a strong choice to include into certain decks that can either play around his turn restriction.


Common Combos:
Sunspot + Infinaut is a super common pairing that makes use of the 5 Energy float you are forced to give up if you plan on playing raw Infinaut. For that reason, She-Hulk is also a commonly paired card to take advantage of extra float, even though you need Magik to really get a chance to play both at the same time. Evolved cards from High Evolutionary can also be effective choices as they also need float to be effective. Some of other common pairings are as noted below:

Lockjaw + Wasp - Lockjaw lets you play a card from your deck, albeit random. Wasp is a 0 cost card so she enables you to cheat whatever other bad boy is hidden in your deck - hence the deck known as Lockjaw Lotto. Infinaut is a common choice in the deck because he can effectively be a 3-20 if you get lucky. You do draw a target with Shang though if that happens, but it lets you quickly reinforce other lanes.
Raw Jubilee - Similar to Lockjaw, Jubilee effectively replaces her draw for another card still in the deck. Playing Jubilee gives you an effective 1/X where X is the remaining number of cards in the deck to pull what you want. Often times, this will likely be a big powered card because it is hard to set up a combo when the draw she gives isn't exactly known
Colleen Wing + Dracula - Dracula discards a card at the end of the game and gains its power value. If you can tailor a deck to remove cards such that only big bois are left, then your Dracula is going to be massive. Effectively a 4-X, where X is the discarded value. Needless to say, Infinaut is a good choice, since it makes Drac a 4-20. Colleen Wing discards the lowest cost card from your hand, which will often be low power. If you tailor the rest of your deck to fit this mold, you can get a 20+ power discard almost every time.
Lady Sif + Ghost Rider - Similar to the above and already described. Play Sif to discard the highest cost card in hand. If this is the Infinaut, you can then play Ghost Rider to immediately summon him back onto the field, effectively turning Ghost Rider into a 4-23.
Magik + She-Hulk - As with Sunspot and described above. Wait on Turn 6 instead, then with 7 Energy, play Infinaut + your 1 cost She-Hulk for 29 Power. As with the weaknesses described, the main issue is that this easy to see coming.

Rank/Tier: B tier. It's hard to argue with 20 power to the face and that's what Infinaut brings. Sure, you can do some wacky combos with like Wong, Shuri and Odin to get a gazillion points, but Infinaut requires less set up and the best methods of using him often cheat him on to the board anyway.

Most Used Decks:
Lockjaw Lotto
Hela Discard
Shenaut
« Last Edit: September 19, 2023, 03:23:42 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2023, 04:27:18 PM »
I haven't gotten into playing Snap yet, but I've watched a few matches, and your deep dives into these cards have been super cool.

The thing that impresses me the most about the game is that it's the least Magic the Gathering CCG I've ever seen. No knock on Magic! I enjoy that game a lot. But it casts an immense shadow over the genre it created.

There's some of that lineage here, but it's distantly related indeed. Everything feels far removed, from the structure of competing over lanes, to the ultra-simplified statlines with complexity loaded entirely onto abilities (many of them one offs), to the emphasis on score differential via the Snap mechanic, to even the onboarding model of unlocking increasingly complex sets of cards as you level up.
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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2023, 04:14:20 PM »
Thanks. I think SNAP is great fun for a quick time waster, but it's also neat that there are layers of depth in the game. And yeah, it doesn't try to be MTG. It's also nice that a lot of the great cards in the game are largely FTP - you don't need the latest and greatest to have a competitive set of cards if that is your wish. My hope when starting this thread was to just share that with more of our user base. If I get you to try the game or otherwise look it up and see what it is like, I consider it a success.

Speaking of great cards that are largely FTP, on to the card of the day: Cosmo



Cost: 3
Power: 3 (1 Below Par)
Ability: Ongoing - Cards with On Reveal abilities no longer trigger in this lane
Ideal Turn to Play: 3-6. When to play Cosmo really depends on how badly you need to tech someone. If you see someone plop down Wong, you probably want to plop down Cosmo early to prevent your opponent from being able to take advantage of double reveals. On the other hand, if someone is setting up a combo behind say Invisible Woman, playing Cosmo on 6 creates the biggest surprise and will earn you a higher cube equity. Cosmo has a big play window and being 3 cost means he can be played alongside another 3 cost giving you this flexibility, which is one of the reasons he is so great.
Archetype: Tech

Uses:
Cosmo is the first card you get that can really trip people up. Quite literally too because he is a Series 1 card, so you get it very early in your SNAP journey. A lot of the cards available you then are fairly simple but will have On Reveals that can tilt a match like White Tiger or Jess Jones. Then one gets their hand on Cosmo, plays it in that lane and stuffs an incoming Odin. You never really do forget your first experience. As you play more and your Collection Level rises and get up to Series 3-5, Cosmo's value only increases. The On Reveal abilities might get stronger but Cosmo still stuffs them all the same. Sense an incoming Galactus? Cosmo that lane and instantly watch an opponent's game plan crumble before his eyes.

Cosmo's value is two-fold as you become more experienced. Not only can he counter an opponent's play, but it can also help set up or protect your plays. Pairing Cosmo with Cerebro shuts down an Enchantress or Rogue. Pairing Cosmo with your Maximus means your opponent doesn't get 2 extra draws while putting you +3 on tempo. Pairing it with Magik can mean the difference between keeping your Turn 7 or getting rug pulled by a Storm or SWitch. Like Invisible Woman, Cosmo becomes quite flexible as your collection grows and the ways you can utilize it expands. Its ability to counter an opponent's play is still his primary use but it starts to become easier to find ways where he can set you up instead of being pure tech.

All of that is further aided by Cosmo's great play window. 3 cost is the magic number in Snap because it lets you play 2 cards of that cost on Turn 6, greatly increasing your flexibility. The even better part? A lot of 3 cost cards in the game are excellent tech cards. Killmonger, the previous iteration of Shadow King, Juggernaut - all 3 cost cards that can be played alongside our doggo friend. Compared to Shang, who is a 4 cost and can't be played alongside many other cards, Cosmo then becomes just one option for a tech counter. If you aren't sure if an opponent is going On Reveal or Ongoing as their last play, you can play Cosmo AND Rogue at the same time. With Shang, that option isn't available. He's all or nothing and there aren't many other 2 cost tech cards that you can play alongside him. This large play window means you can alter when Cosmo comes down and he will always be useful as long as you draw him. If your opponent is setting up a play like with Generic Destroy or a big Wong combo, you can stuff it immediately because delaying it will often cost you the game. On the other hand, if an opponent is trying to set up a combo behind Invisible Woman or giving off tells of an obvious Galactus, you also have the option to play it on Turn 6 to goad an opponent into staying and getting better cube equity. Since you can also tailor a deck around him, this means there is literally no time where it is bad to draw Cosmo. However, it IS more powerful for Cosmo to have priority since that means it shuts down the current turn's play instead of the turn after. For that reason, he can lose effectiveness in pure counter decks like Sera Miracle if he is drawn on 6 as they often want to lose priority by then.

Cosmo's only real issue is that unlike Echo, who only hits your opponent's cards, Cosmo provides lane parity meaning his effect hits both YOU and your opponent. Too often do people forget their own Cosmo (yours truly included) and end up placing a card like Mystique into the Cosmo lane. This parity does mean your opponent can also use your own Cosmo against you. So against certain decks, you have to be way more cautious about playing him out. A deck like Spectrum Destroyer uses very few On Reveal effects except for like Goblins and Destroyer. Playing a Cosmo in that matchup gives your opponent a free lane to place a 6-15 down that you can't Shang anymore. It also saves them 3 Energy they can use to play something else. Since it only affects one lane, opponents that play a deck that goes wide for example will also likely be able to play around your Cosmo. A Zoo deck can drop down their 1 cost On Reveals in other lanes and then use your own Cosmo'd Lane to guard their Kazar and Blue Marvel.

Keeping those things in mind though, Cosmo is an extremely powerful card that you are give in Series 1. I remember reading another player's analysis that talked about how a lot of new cards that are released don't even give you that much of a better win rate or cube rate. And amongst the examples cited of really powerful FTP cards, Cosmo was listed as one of them. It's not hard to see why once you delve a little bit more into the game.
 
Common Combos:
You often play Cosmo to counter an opponent's play but that doesn't mean you can't use Cosmo to set up your own. The "No Reveals" part means he is a bit trickier to use, but there are obviously cards with detrimental effects that love being paired with Cosmo so those effects can be voided. The most obvious 2 card combo of this nature are Cosmo -> Maximus in Surfer decks and Cosmo -> Destroyer in Spectrum Destroyer decks. You can also do heavy duty lane control this way by pairing Cosmo with Echo. These two paired together basically prevent both On Reveals AND Ongoings from kicking in on one lane, which shuts down basically everything but stat sticks like the Infinaut or those with useful passives like Captain Marvel. Finally, Cosmo can be paired up with other Ongoings / Big bodies to help protect them. A lot of other tech cards like Shang, Enchantress and Shadow King are all On Reveals themselves. So putting your Dino together with Cosmo for example will guard it from being destroyed by an opponent's Shang.

Rank/Tier: A tier. Cosmo borders on being S Tier due to its near universal usefulness. The only reason why it doesn't is because he is a tech card so he rises and falls in usage based on the meta. If he altered the way you composed decks and changed the way you think about SNAP, he would be an easy inclusion. As is, he is just a very powerful counter that can be played into your hands if you use the right set of tools. That still means he's an easy A tier card though.

Most Used Decks:
Any deck that is looking for an "On Reveal" counter
Spectrum Destroyer
Surfer
Zero Shuri
Cerebro 3
« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 03:25:30 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2023, 03:21:22 PM »
Killmonger



Cost: 3
Power: 3 (1 Below Par)
Ability: On Reveal - Destroy all 1-cost Cards currently on the board
Ideal Turn to Play: 3-6. Similar to Cosmo, when you play Killmonger really depends on the board state, your opponent's deck and your own plans. If you're just using him as a tech card, Turn 6 probably makes more sense for better cube equity. On the other hand, using him as an enabler or support card means you're probably rolling him out a bit earlier.
Archetype: Tech/Destroy

Uses:
One of the strongest decks you can use in early pools is a Zoo deck archetype. The concept of the deck is simple. You build it around decent 1-cost or flood type cards and go wide, while boosting them with Kazar, Blue Marvel and maybe Onslaught so they are worth much more than their base value. When you first start you SNAP journey, you're likely going to be playing cards as they become available for play and things such as Play Windows are not as evident or important. So here you are, spending turns 1-3 putting down various 1 cost cards and you slam Onslaught out on 6 for a massive field wide boost. Then your opponent plays Killmonger and basically wipes out your entire board except for one lane. And thus, a painful lesson is learned and Zoo's dominance becomes more diminished.

In some ways, Killmonger shares a lot of similar traits as Cosmo. They tech against different cards sure, but they both have the same stat line, both can be used to enable plays for yourself and both have very wide play windows where they can be effective. Killmonger is what some people would call a "pure value" card. Anytime you actually play him out, you are immediately going to get some sort of benefit. Obviously, he can destroy your opponent's 1 cost cards that need to be played early like Quinjet, but you can also just use him to clear junk out. If your board is flooded by rocks from Debrii or a gifted Hood from Viper, Killmonger is going to remove those for you. And even though he can benefit your opponent in the same way, the difference in information and deck construction means that the advantage will often be tilted in your favour.

Killmonger's introduction teaches players about a couple of important concepts. Priority is the obvious one as who reveals first matters determines whether Killmonger whiffs or gets you, but the other important lesson is timing. Just because you CAN play something early doesn't mean that you should. Killmonger being present in early pool 2 means that players still running Zoo decks, learned quickly they can mitigate the risk of getting caught by him by just saving all your 1 cost plays on Turn 6. You still have to play out Kazar and Blue Marvel on 4-5, but your other 1 cost cards can technically be played all on Turn 6 anyway (1+2+3 = 6 Energy). So why risk getting hit by an earlier Killmonger, when the bulk of your deck can be played out late anyway? Not only does doing this reduce the amount of information provided, but you will likely lose priority, which aids in evading getting your board wiped. And from there, players learn the effectiveness of a card's play window. Something like Nightcrawler or Ice Man are best played before Turn 6 so they can utilize their abilities more effectively. However, something like Blade might be best played later to reduce the chance of discarding something important.

Since Killmonger's effect hits your field as well, he's best in decks that can utilize his ability to enable bigger plays versus just being a tech card. Nova is basically paired up with Killmonger at the hip since Killmonger can destroy him from anywhere. That means that, if you played Nova in a restricted location, you can also hold off from blowing him up if it can let you chump win a location since he is still worth at least a point. You can also play him alongside Squirrel Girl to aid Death. Death is an 8 Cost Card but decreases its cost by 1 every time a card is destroyed on the field (regardless of whose side of the board it is on). So playing Squirrel Girl, the using Killmonger not only strips all the clutter Squirrel Girl dumps, but it makes Death -3 in Cost immediately. Similarly, he works with Thanos because all the Stones are 1 cost. You can then quickly play out the Stones for their effects, the use Killmonger to set up Death or even Galactus.  Finally, both Deadpool and Hood are common pairings with Killmonger because both can make use of his ability to destroy them from the field. 

Still, despite his strengths, I don't think anybody that has played SNAP for awhile would disagree that Killmonger is fundamentally a weaker card than Cosmo. The key issue stems from the cards that they stop. Cosmo stuffs down any On Reveal abilities - which are often the most powerful ones in SNAP because they only occur once when played. This trait will continue to be important in SNAP's future because On Reveal is one of the categories that an ability can belong to. The only way Cosmo loses relevance is if they literally stopped making On Reveal effects. On the other hand, Killmonger doesn't stop flood decks or even Zoo decks completely. If you're using Dazzler, Mysterio and Brood, Killmonger basically does jack all. He specifically just stops decks that rely primarily on 1-cost cards. And while he will always serve as a check to them, the weaker 1 cost cards are, the less important Killmonger is in the meta.

He can also just be a more awkward card to play. If you end up in a situation where you want to save your Sunspot but want to destroy your opponent's Nebula, Killmonger isn't going to discriminate. In this ways, Cosmo's lane restriction can be a blessing in disguise - you just need to make your plays in a different lane. No such option exists with Killmonger. It seems like this might be that one case where Elektra is relevant, but thankfully, there are other more flexible options. Just that at the end of the day, you're going to need another card to support. Then there is also the fact that Cosmo exists the entire time he is played whereas Killmonger is only relevant on the turn he is played...

You have other ways to nullifying Killmonger such as Armor or throwing away priority, but the type of card he checks against means Killmonger always has a hard cap on how useful he is going to be. That doesn't mean he is useless - it just means there are limitations on how useful he is and ultimately the types of decks he will fit in. When Bounce was meta, Killmonger was truly king because he was the one card that they had to respect since it would eliminate their pumped Kitty regardless of which lane she was in. The stronger 1 cost cards become, the more likely one sees a resurgence in his play rate.
 
Common Combos:
Like with Cosmo, aside from just teching against 1-costs, Killmonger is a tech card that can run several combos or enabler plays to assist the deck:

Nova -> Killmonger - As described above, this is an easy 2 card combo that aims to blow up Nova to give all other cards on the field a boost. You'd usually do this late as possible to get the maximum bonus possible available with Nova, but blowing him up early can make sense if you are running a card like Deadpool, who wants to be pumped up every turn if possible.

Squirrel Girl + Debrii + Killmonger + Death - Debrii is a tough card to fit with Destroy, but here's another interesting play you can do to get more mileage out of the rocks she places in each lane. Squirrel Girl + Debrii's rocks all get hit by Killmonger, so this combination means you reduce Death's cost by 7, pretty much ensuring you can play her for 0 for a big turn 6 point slam.

Hood + Killmonger - Hood is a -3 Power card but summons a 6 power Demon to your hand. Playing Killmonger means you get the benefit of playing him with none of the drawbacks.

Deadpool + Killmonger - Deadpool is an awkward card that doubles in power every time he is destroyed. The real annoying thing with Deadpool is that he really wants a perfect or close to perfect Curve as much as possible. Killmonger helps to smooth that curve because in most other destroy decks, you usually only have 3 actual destroy effects. Here, Killmonger represents an extra destroy card, which can help keep your Deadpool on track.

Time Stone + Killmonger + Galactus - Basically a way to get Galactus out on Turn 5. Depending on the rest of the board, playing Killmonger + Time Stone and clearing a lane means there is now an empty lane that you can try to call Galactus in. You'll need some support cards to finish the deal, but that goes without saying.

Invisible Woman + Killmonger - A delayed Killmonger that goes off at the end of the game and kills any 1-cost not taking cover behind Armor. A super relevant combo during the Bounce meta but still relevant today and can be used to catch late game Zoo or Ultron players.

Rank/Tier: B tier. While not as relevant of a tech card as Shang or Cosmo, Killmonger is still pretty solid. Being 3 cost gives him flexibility and unlike most other cards, he doesn't care which lane he is played into. This means he's pretty unique, so while ultimately, his stock rises and falls depending on 1-cost relevancy, he is at least at the apex of what he checks against. This is in stark contrast to cards that tech against Ongoing effects, where all three are often competing against each other.

Most Used Decks:
Surfer
Control
Generic Destroy
Thanos Destroy
Cerebro 3
« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 04:17:31 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2023, 03:48:35 PM »
Punisher



Cost: 3
Power: 2 (2 Below Par)
Ability: Ongoing - For every card your opponent has in this lane, gain +1 Power
Ideal Turn to Play: 3-6. Like the previous two cards above him, Punisher is an establisher with a wide play window that lets you parachute him any time after Turn 3. It is one of the few things that keeps him somewhat usable.
Archetype: Anchor / Junk

Uses:
We're looking at another series 1 card for the day, but unlike Cosmo, Punisher is largely outclassed by the time you hit Series 3. That's not to say he doesn't have a place or use, but it is pretty evident that he has been power crept to the point you only really use him now if you like him. Punisher is pretty interesting in a way and he shares a parallel with Cap being a 3 Cost establisher card that focuses on lane flooding...only in the Punisher's case, it is about flooding an opponent's lanes versus yours so he's actually harder to set up. At the same time though, Punisher is probably actually better than Cap and of the Series 1 establisher type cards, he definitely feels relevant longer than the others.

To understand why, let's look at some of Punisher's strengths. He's a 3-2 with a potential to go up to 3-6. So on paper, he is definitely weaker than Cap because Cap starts at 1 base power higher and it is easy to combo him with like Brood, Antman or another card that wants you to fill a lane. In practice however, completely sealing a lane off BEFORE the end of the game is often a mistake. There are two issues at play here. The first is that doing so bars you from making more additional plays to that lane unless you can move a card. So the state of what you have in that lane is largely locked in. This then leads to the second issue which is that it telegraphs to your opponent what they can use to counter your lane. Have a bunch of Ongoing effects like Cap/Antman/Onslaught? Let me play Enchantress and kill it. Have a bunch of pumped up Broods? Here comes Shadow King. And in the even the lock requires an answer that your opponent doesn't have? Guess what? They just retreat for their ante cube rate. So it is bad for cube equity too.

Punisher's ability avoids this issue because he only gains premium rate if YOUR opponent dumps 4 cards into a lane. Sure, this means he usually doesn't become a 3-6, but he also doesn't require you to completely fill a lane in. You can build a deck around his ability such as the junk archetype, where then, Punisher can easily get more value when played. And since he can be played any time after you have the energy for him, he becomes a flexible 3 cost stat stick that can surprise an opponent. There is also something of a weird dichotomy in SNAP where single cards with large power are generally more preferable to lower value flood cards. Yes, I'm aware Brood exists and it's a damn good card, but even then, Brood shares this weakness as well. Partially due to the reasons I explained above, but also because if a card requires all 4 cards in the lane to be relevant, then it is easier to disrupt them. Put another way, it gives your opponent 4 different chances or methods to render that particular lane's combo to be ineffective. So sure, Punisher can get stuffed by Enchantress or Rogue. But if you're playing Punisher plus Polaris for example, none of those cards hit Polaris. And since they function independently of each other, you need 2 different tech cards to counter both. But play Antman, Cap and  Onslaught together? Antman can die to Elektra or moved by Polaris, Cap can be moved by Magneto, Onslaught can be redirected by Aero, and so on. There are just more tools available.

There is also the psychological aspect of Punisher that I'm sure influences some players, even though it doesn't have as significant of an impact as one might expect. Since he gains +1 Power for every card in an opponent's lane on the same side, it is easy for an opponent to decide to not reinforce that lane for fear of making Punisher stronger - even though realistically, pretty much any card you play will have 1 power and offset this gain. This in turn, can lead to them putting off playing cards into a lane long enough that it is impossible to come back from. Remember how I mentioned in other posts that SNAP has a timing component for when to best play cards? Punisher's effect can have an impact on that - which does make him better than what one might expect on face value.

Because he is influenced by the opponent's side of the lane, Punisher isn't a card that has a lot of combos...at least not traditional ones. He appreciates other cards that can help him load up an opponent's lane - so cards like Polaris (moving a 1 or 2 cost), Viper (gifting an opponent a card) or Debrii (throwing rocks into the field) all help him out. He's also weirdly effective with Magneto if an opponent is using 3 or 4 cost establishers as Magnetman will move those for him. The goblins are also effective with Punisher, since they will fly into an opponent's lane on their own. He's largely an independent though because while he can benefit from other cards played, they often won't receive a benefit from him. Hence why he's basically a stat stick perse.

Nowadays, Punisher has largely been power crept because 3 costs are starting to get more power or their abilities are becoming stronger and have more complex interactions with other cards. And because Punisher largely doesn't combo with other cards, the moment the average expected power goes up, the less relevant and useful he becomes. He is particularly bad against decks that go tall instead of ones that go wide because they can focus more power per card in each location. Destroy in particular laughs at Punisher forever because they will constantly decrease the number of cards sitting in a particular lane (except for the Nimrod versions). It doesn't help you out at all if your Punisher is going to be a 3-3 while they have a 3-18 Venom or higher sitting in the same lane. The fact that it is your opponent who gets to decide how much Punisher is worth at the end of the day if you aren't tossing junk into their play space is something that will always suck for him.

Common Combos:
Punisher doesn't really help out other cards but he can be the recipient of some of them. Here are some simple combos that work with him:

Polaris -> Punisher - If an opponent plays a 1 or 2 cost card, Polaris can move them into another lane. This means she can set up Punisher to always have at least +1 base power.
Hood -> Viper -> Punisher - This is a 3 card combo on the curve that not only gives you a 1-6 Demon from Hood, but then tosses him into your opponent's board and gives Punisher +1
Debrii -> Punisher - As noted above, the rocks on the field also help boost Punisher. Best way to take advantage of Debrii is to break parity on rocks and Punisher does that, even at only +1
Punisher -> Magneto - Especially effective if you have like Kraven sitting in the same lane. Moves all 3-4 cost into the Magneto lane, giving both Kraven and Punisher a large boost, offsetting Magneto's usual net negative when he is played.
Juggernaut -> Punisher - As with Polaris, Juggernaut will toss a card randomly around if they are played in the same lane is him. This can let you set up a separate spot where Punisher can be a stat-stick.


Rank/Tier: D tier. Realistically, Punisher is probably more of a C- or a D+ card. He has his uses, but outside of Pool 1 and 2, he largely becomes power crept by better establishers or better support cards at 3 that can lead to bigger and better plays.

Most Used Decks:
Junk
Negative
Spectrum Destroyer
Surfer
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 04:08:15 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2023, 03:18:30 PM »
Let's talk about a Marvel favourite, Wolverine



Cost: 2
Power: 2 (1 Below Par)
Ability: Passive - Whenever Wolverine is Destroyed or Discarded, he instantly regenerates into a random lane. +2 Power on each occurrence.
Ideal Turn to Play: 2-5. Logan is best played earlier so you have more times to set him up to be greater than his base value. And while you can play him on 6, his random respawning can be a real headache if you are trying to plan around where he is going to jump to.
Archetype: Destroy / Discard

Uses:
Wolverine is truly unique in the world of SNAP because of all the cards that exist in the game, to this day, there are only 2 cards I can think of where once played, they generally cannot be removed from the board. One of them is Nimrod. The other is Wolverine. Sure, Deadpool and Sabretooth both regenerate too, but unlike Logan, they then have to be played again from hand. That can be a real issue if your opponent drops down a Killmonger or Gambit and happens to eliminate your buffed Deadpool on Turn 6. With Logan though, he can never be removed from the field. They can move him around to a random location, but he will always have board presence, meaning it turns destroying him into a gamble that he ends up in the wrong lane. And if they are unlucky, he can totally jump to the correct lane by accident.

Wolverine can only be destroyed in 1 way that I'm aware of once he's played. If Galactus enters the field AND there is no longer any space for Logan to go to, then he can finally die. Otherwise, not even the big bad who removes complete lanes can get rid of him. His permanent presence is very useful because it means once you pay his 2 Energy cost, he will always be on the field for you to play with. Where this is most useful is with Destroy decks since they need cards on the field to destroy to start their game plan. Logan being always around means he will always be a useful assist in this way. And since he will always be there, it's easy to destroy Wolverine more than once. So often in Destroy decks, he is at least a 2-6...sometimes even higher depending on the location, your opponent's decks and other factors. That's a LOT of value out of a 2-cost card.

He can do some work in Discard, but his role there is quite different. While in Destroy, you are looking to sacrifice him repeatedly, in Discard, he really is only played once. To be more precise, you're not actually playing his cost, but rather hoping he gets chosen as the discarded card. This lets you play him out for free, effectively making him a 0-4. When you consider that the two 0 cost cards in the game currently only have 1 or 2 power, the fact that Logan is +4 is pretty good! This does come with the caveat that you cannot choose which lane he goes into, but free card play is a free card play. Colleen Wing is the best tool for the job here as she will discard the lowest card from your hand. Since he can only be discarded once, he's generally the first card dropped from Discard decks as he cannot gain as much power as in Destroy. However, if you are still early in your journey, Logan makes rounds in both archetypes pretty routinely.

The random respawning is a double-edged sword. However, it is often more useful than a hinderance because in situations where Wolverine can jump to a lane you don't want him to jump to, you can also choose to you know, not destroy him. It means he doesn't get stronger anymore, but it is rare for all 3 locations to be disadvantageous to you. This is even more true when considers that a lot of locations in the game favour Destroy.  So often times, Wolverine's random respawn CAN win you the game. If you have somewhere like Luke's Bar or Sanctum Santorium, destroying Wolverine can get him to bounce into those lanes for free. If he's more than +4 power, your opponent really needs Reach in order to contest. A 6 power Wolverine can hold down the fort from even Doom.

Where it CAN work against you is on Turn 6. Since you cannot tell where Wolverine will jump to, destroying him on 6 effectively puts yourself into a gamble. If you need Wolverine to anchor a particular lane then it is even worse because it means there is only a 1/3 chance he will land back into the same lane versus the 50/50 if you just need him to move. For this reason, Wolverine is not something that you really want to play on 6. You either play him out for 2 Power, which is bad on tempo, or you play him out and have to deal with him hopping around. Those aren't very good conditions to be playing a game out against. Another big problem for Logan though is that he is very much pidgeon-holed into this archetype. This inflexibility means that unlike some of the A tier cards I mentioned, playing Wolverine is a tell and gives a lot of information to your opponent about what deck you are playing and therefore, what other cards they expect to see. There is a common joke amongst more experienced players that Wolverine on 2 plus Wave on 3 guarantees a Galactus on 4. It is just such an extremely obvious play line that more experienced Galactus players basically stopped playing Wolverine to better mask their intentions. Even if you aren't playing Galactus, playing Wolverine means the Armors and Cosmos come out and that will basically kill your entire Destroy deck if you don't have priority and get ahead in the running.

Wolverine used to be way worse, where he was just a static 2-3 that would jump around. That made him much less useful because at 3 power, he couldn't really threaten much and was just par for course on tempo. His current iteration has made him pretty staple though in Destroy since he is often worth premium plus value. The main thing holding him back now is that he is a flashing red light that tells your opponent that you are looking to Destroy things. And since he should come down as early as Turn 2, that gives an opponent plenty of time to find their possible tech cards to use against you.

Common Combos:
Like Punisher, Wolverine is more the recipient of combos versus being the one to set them up. He does have a few where he CAN be a useful enabler though:

Wolverine -> Carnage /Deathlok - Pretty simple! You even get 1 bonus energy and +2 power with Carnage. Deathlok is less ideal but is at least on curve.
Wolverine -> Venom - Similar to above, but can be played late. Venom absorbs the power of all the cards he destroys. So the more you can pump up Wolverine before Venom eats him, the great the power boost to the symbiote.
Wolverine -> Hulk Buster -> Knull - One of Hulk Buster's significant weaknesses, is that like enchant creatures in Magic, they can be -1 Card advantage if the card you attach it to gets blown up. Logan solves that issue because he cannot be destroyed once in hand. You can even then duplicate the Hulk Buster like in its best use cases by repeatedly destroying Logan and playing Knull.
Wolverine -> Galactus - This is a very common combination that you'll see, although it will be spaced several turns apart. Since Logan cannot be destroyed except in very rare circumstances, playing him in a Galactus deck, he can actually bounce (from left to right) before stopping and gain +4 power in some cases.
Wolverine -> Colleen Wing -> Morbius - Other than Swarm, Wolverine is a good target for Colleen since if that happens, he is essentially played for free - albeit randomly. A 0-4 is pretty good! You also get +2 to THE MORB, so it's another line of play in Discard, albeit less good than Swarm.

Rank/Tier: B tier. Wolverine is another early Series 1 card that has remained relevant to today's landscape. This is largely owing to his rework. With it, he's almost always a 2-6+ in Destroy decks or is a free play in Discard. He works better in the former obviously since he can scale up and is harder to power creep out but he's still see a fair amount of usage in both archetypes.

Most Used Decks:
Apocalypse Discard
Generic Destroy
Nimrod Destroy
Galactus
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 03:55:44 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
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Bobbin Cranbud

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2023, 04:07:30 PM »
Logan's ability is very flavorful, but I'm disappointed it pigeonholes him into a single deck. He should be able to show up on every team!

... On the other hand, the meme of him being on every team at once may be outdated now; I'm way behind on Marvel lore.

If you get the chance, I'd love to get an examination of some of the Locations. The way their traits symmetrically shape play is one of the things that's most interesting to me about Snap.
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Tide

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Re: Marvel Snap - Cards, Analysis, etc.
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2023, 02:15:04 AM »
I don't mind going over locations but I need some input on the format. What would you like me to talk about? Other than Like what decks are good with it or which cards, what else would you want me to note?
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself