The RPG Duelling League
RPGDL Games => Game Design and Modifications => Topic started by: Eternal248 on May 13, 2011, 04:05:57 PM
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Hello everyone, as you can see, my name's Eternal248, but most people call me Eternal or ET. Whichever works for you is fine by me.
I was introduced to this forum by Laggy, after we were discussing LFT and various other FFT-related things. I'm an admin over at Final Fantasy Hacktics, so I'm very interested in others' approaches to FFT modding. I've already been on IRC, and I'm loving the community here! I'm looking forward to being able to share my work with you guys, and hopefully you'll enjoy it all! I'm by no means a "real" hacker- I rely on the editors that others are generous enough to make. I'm currently working on a FFT patch (which I'll discuss below), and I've finished (but am still updating) a FFVI Hardtype patch.
~Final Fantasy VI Hardtype~
My very first ever patch! The basic aim was to make things harder, but in time, it grew. Although I'm still fine-tuning certain aspects (Rages, Lores, and Sketches, I'm looking at you), generally each PC in FFVI Hardtype fits a more pre-defined role. This is accomplished by limiting the spells certain Espers teach, and making most spells learnable through equipment. Generally, using buffs and debuffs are more important now that enemies hit much, much harder. Certain spells have been changed, mostly to be more useful/less broken. For example:
Quick -> Blind
Antdot -> Chrono (Cures Slow/Stop)
Break now deals Earth damage.
My ultimate goal is for each PC to be a bit more useful and focused than they were before, since they seemed rather same-y in Vanilla FFVI. I could go into deeper detail of what I've done... but I don't know if you guys would want the specifics or not. FFVI Hardtype has been attached below in a .zip file. You'll need Lunar IPS to patch a clean ROM.
~Final Fantasy Tactics: Parted Ways~
My current project. Featuring all new skills, all new items, all new weapons, and all new jobs, Parted Ways (PW for short) is intended to be a total overhaul of FFT. Each item and job is balanced and most items are available from the beginning, allowing you to customise your characters early-on with a myriad of setups. Don't want to use the new jobs? That's fine, too! The old FFT generics you know and love will be available to recruit at certain points in the game- albeit with slightly different sprites and abilities.
Although not currently fully planned, new events and missions will be added later in Parted Ways' development when I learn how to event edit. Currently, I'm inputting all the mechanics into the Patcher, but a playable version should be downloadable by the end of this month or halfway into next month. I'll take some screenshots later today for you guys. Attached below is an Excel spreadsheet of all the new generic jobs, skills, new items, and new armor for you to view if you'd like.
Well, I'm done rambling about myself now. I'm glad to be a part of this community!
*not guaranteed to be wonderful.
EDIT: The screenshots I promised can be found in the album here: http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad245/Eternal248/Parted%20Ways/
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Initial reaction...
Glanced through your spreadsheet a bit for FFT:PW. Maybe I shouldn't jump to conclusions before I see the JP costs for stuff but...
...I'll say that the level 2 spells on classes like Viking/Scholar/Psion/Necromancer etc look...a lot better than the level 1 spells in general. Not that the level 1 spells are obsolete (lower CT abilities will always have a niche use--even when the CT gap is only 6 CT to 4 CT. And 35 MP to 10 MP is a large gap that will at least be relevant at lower levels). but the level two spells generally have twice the damage and are 3v3 instead of 2v1.
But I might have to play it first; it might be that you dialed the MP growth way back or made the fights last longer to the point that 35 MP is actually a pretty big deal throughout the game.
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That's one of my concerns as well, and I'll likely be lowering the MA on those since I've recently found space for Level III Magic (for the Generic Black Mages to get). I haven't made all their skills yet (mostly knocking items out of the way first), but when I do, I'll test them out and see what the damage will be like.
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Welcome to the DL!
You should check out SageAcrin's EvilType topic: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5758.0.html
Meeple's Meeple Fantasy Hack: http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Meeple_Fantasy_6
and if you're still interested in helping me with my own hack, then check it out on FF6Hacking's site:
http://www.ff6hacking.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=919
If you ever need any custom sprites, let me know and I might be able to help you~
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Hi!
I'll try Hardtype later on. Unfortunately people are focused on every RPG here rather than just FF6&T, so one hack might be enough for most and there's already a lot of competition here. (Laggy's FFT patch, Sage's and Meeple's FF6 patches) (BTW, got halfway through Sage's and finished Laggy's they were both good. Meeple's isn't really my style so I haven't tried it)
What would be awesome is a Level Zero FFT/FF6 patch. No levelling up. There'd still be a big sense of progression because learning spells/skills would matter as much, and getting new equipement would matter much more. You can just use whoever you want all the time with a lot less penalties, and never worry about having the right espers/job on at the right time for the right stat progression. Balance would also be a lot easier to deal with. DAMN.
*is lazy*
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Fenrir: For FFT at least, there's a GameShark code that does pretty much exactly what you say (not sure what it is... ask mc) which I'd imagine is probably easy enough to pull off on emulators (though... not certain).
Don't think there's one for FF6, sadly. I agree that one would be very cool. I've always wanted to try an FF6 LLG but I was put off by the idea of resetting every time you fight an unrunnable enemy, messing with the RNG to get the lowest-exp formations at the minecart and IAF, and nonsense involving constantly returning to the Veldt to leap off Gau to affect level re-averaging (the last wouldn't necessarily be taken care of by a Zero Level hack, but I guess some other method could be used there?). Yeah.
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The lowest EXP Formation thing isn't so bad in the grand scheme of things; its only for STRICT LLGs, and most LLGs just say "Screw it, take what you can get. If you're lucky, you'll be hit only by weak ones." The Mine Cart ride is more or less determined when you jump into the cart, so you can reset until you the first fight is in the formation you want (which will then determine the rest of the formations. Mine Cart does not function like the rest of the game.)
Though, yeah, unrunnable formations are bullshit. Ninjas on the FC are pains in the asses, ditto to a 3 Phase Fight in the Phoenix Cave. You can at least Vanish/Doom things like GtBehemoths in GtBehemoth/Vectaur/Evil Oscar fights to get past them (and I think the Phase/Necromancer/Trixter fights in Phoenix Cave have a similar way around it), but its probably better to just hack FF6 to remove "Cannot run" byte from those randoms, cause having to reset the game everytime the RNG says "AHAHAHA FUCK YOU" is not really fair for challenge. Its kind of like if FFT gives enemies a certain skill that completely reams an SCC, and said skill is exceedingly rare (I ermember Sage saying something like Titan in Yardrow is really quite a "Fuck you" to many SCCs, and NOT a standard for that Summoner generally, and such RNG Fuckovers in terms of enemy skillsets are not considered genuine Resets?)
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and such RNG Fuckovers in terms of enemy skillsets are not considered genuine Resets?
Never seen this espoused in the SCC community, for what it's worth (resets are resets, reason basically doesn't matter... if an SCC is hard enough that it can be screwed over by enemy setups, that should be reflected in its average reset count!). It's a bit different since even if the Summoners have Titan or whatever (which... isn't as rare as you're making it out to be), you might still win if you play well and other things in the battle (zodiac, ninjas missing, etc.) go your way. Running into FC Ninjas is just instantly "lol you lose".
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Well, yeah, I'm not denying that Ninjas on the FC are "You lose" and shouldn't be counted against you as a reset; I think that reason alone is why Save States were permitted in LLGs; to avoid such Random Encounter fuck overs you have no control over.
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Hmm... a no-leveling FF6 game would present some problems with how some skillsets are learned. Blitzes/SwdTechs and Terra/Celes' magic lists require levelling to activate. I suppose if you started everyone off at say Level 50, they'd know everything when they joined? But I imagine that knowing every skill from the start defeats the idea of leveless -progression-. Terra/Celes' magic lists could be duplicated with unique Equipment that teaches them their spells, but Blitzes and SwdTechs are all-or-nothing without levels. (Note that there IS a command that teaches all unlearned Blitzes and Swdtechs, so I suppose it could be half-or-nothing if you started them with half of their skillset and then wrote an event that taught them the second half sometime in the WoR perhaps? Kind of lame, but Setzer/Mog/Edgar already have this kind of WoB/WoR shift, I suppose.)
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I'm actually considering a no-level progression for FFT, since all my jobs/armor are already balanced without considering levels. The only thing stopping me is that I fear it'd be -too- different from standard FF norm.
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"Fenrir: For FFT at least, there's a GameShark code that does pretty much exactly what you say (not sure what it is... ask mc) which I'd imagine is probably easy enough to pull off on emulators (though... not certain)."
Everybody is at level 1? Sounds... Actually great yeah, but it would still be a lot better with some balance work (I don't know much about FFT, but everybody would have almost the same attack power late in the game but a lot less HPs, right?) Either that or everybody is at level 50 and battles take way too long at the beginning.
"Hmm... a no-leveling FF6 game would present some problems with how some skillsets are learned. Blitzes/SwdTechs and Terra/Celes' magic lists require levelling to activate. I suppose if you started everyone off at say Level 50, they'd know everything when they joined? But I imagine that knowing every skill from the start defeats the idea of leveless -progression-. Terra/Celes' magic lists could be duplicated with unique Equipment that teaches them their spells, but Blitzes and SwdTechs are all-or-nothing without levels. (Note that there IS a command that teaches all unlearned Blitzes and Swdtechs, so I suppose it could be half-or-nothing if you started them with half of their skillset and then wrote an event that taught them the second half sometime in the WoR perhaps? Kind of lame, but Setzer/Mog/Edgar already have this kind of WoB/WoR shift, I suppose.)"
I didn't even notice that about Cyan, to be honest. It's definitely true, but there's no big impact since there's only one and a half character affected and there are ways to work around it as you said. You could also have Bum Rush be a big deal, and have Sabin's unique equipment give some massive boosts to... Vigor? Stamina? Whatever actually affects blitz. Same for Cyan.
"I'm actually considering a no-level progression for FFT, since all my jobs/armor are already balanced without considering levels. The only thing stopping me is that I fear it'd be -too- different from standard FF norm."
It would make the patch stand out I guess.
As with a lot of other RPGs, I just don't feel levels are a big deal at all in FFT. You usually care about skills a lot more and just gradually gain levels without noticing much of a difference between two levels. FFT has randoms that scale with your levels to make those even more pointless.
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"Hmm... a no-leveling FF6 game would present some problems with how some skillsets are learned. Blitzes/SwdTechs and Terra/Celes' magic lists require levelling to activate. I suppose if you started everyone off at say Level 50, they'd know everything when they joined? But I imagine that knowing every skill from the start defeats the idea of leveless -progression-. Terra/Celes' magic lists could be duplicated with unique Equipment that teaches them their spells, but Blitzes and SwdTechs are all-or-nothing without levels. (Note that there IS a command that teaches all unlearned Blitzes and Swdtechs, so I suppose it could be half-or-nothing if you started them with half of their skillset and then wrote an event that taught them the second half sometime in the WoR perhaps? Kind of lame, but Setzer/Mog/Edgar already have this kind of WoB/WoR shift, I suppose.)"
I didn't even notice that about Cyan, to be honest. It's definitely true, but there's no big impact since there's only one and a half character affected and there are ways to work around it as you said. You could also have Bum Rush be a big deal, and have Sabin's unique equipment give some massive boosts to... Vigor? Stamina? Whatever actually affects blitz. Same for Cyan.
Well, considering all the rebalancing you'd need to do to make a Leveless game playable, you could make Blitz run off of Vigor, though currently it mainly runs off of Sabin's Magic stat which is... >.<;;
If you started Sabin off with 7 of his Blitzes, he'd had no real reason to use anything but Air Blade for the entire game, unless you really needed to hit Fire weakness or use ITD? Since granting him Bum Rush gives him -every- Blitz up to that point, it might work better to split his skills up into WoB set of 4 and WoR set of 4. (or 5 and 3 if you want to give him access to MANTRA earlier?) You'd probably want to make Bum Rush a really high-powered Physical skill so that it doesn't completely obsolete getting Air Blade at the same time? Spiraller is still useless, but whatever.
Cyan at least... well, the sheer -time- cost of using the various SwdTechs means that the faster ones are always going to have a use no matter how early you get the later ones. Though it's notable that SwdTech badly needed rebalancing anyway and I would take a look at Sage's setup for that, such that the later SwdTechs are actually worth charging up to in some cases. Again, it would probably work best to split his skills up between WoB set of 4 and WoR set of 4 (or 5 and 3). Though instead of making the learning point his Dream sequence, just do it when you recruit him. You can still give him the big sword/Esper reward for completing his Dream.
The big determining factor in how interesting a Leveless challenge would be, to me at least, is whether or not Espers still teach magic? In a game where progression is all measured based on what skills you get, Espers make sense, but I generally prefer Spells to be more unique. Like, maybe Locke gets a unique sword that teaches Quick, so he's got a much more useful niche. Maybe only one character can learn Life3? Haste? Use the Dragoonboots? I kind of like the idea of Relm getting some unique spells so that she's not relying on SKETCH.
One thing I did with my hack was change up how the Dance skillset worked. Certain dances could only be learned in the WoR (specifically Kefka's tower and the Ancient castle under Figaro) and I boosted the usefulness of those such that Dance was still a viable strategy in the second half of the game. Not much can be done about Setzer's Slots getting obsoleted (apart from changing the probabilities so that the bigger stuff is more common, but that's opening up newer balance issues), but it's possible that he might make a good candidate for unique Dragoonboots (and CoinToss is still stupid). I guess it depends on how different you're willing to let the hack be from vanilla FF6 (aside from the Leveless part).
Fun to think about though.
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Setzer already gets a huge upgrade in the WoR from Fixed Dice anyway, he himself progresses just fine even if Slots doesn't. I think most would argue Setzer is better in the WoR than the WoB!
I kind of like the idea of Relm getting some unique spells so that she's not relying on SKETCH.
Wait Relm is relying on Sketch what.
If you wanted to make Relm more unique, apart from giving her unique spells, you could also just amplify her already existing niche and up her magic power.
EDIT: Honestly, equipment is such a big deal for character differentiation in FF6 that it often takes care of some characters' progression and differentiation. I think FF6 is a great game for it and the main reason other "learn what you want" systems like FF7-8 fall short of it to me is because they don't do what FF6 does with equips.
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Setzer already gets a huge upgrade in the WoR from Fixed Dice anyway, he himself progresses just fine even if Slots doesn't. I think most would argue Setzer is better in the WoR than the WoB!
I kind of like the idea of Relm getting some unique spells so that she's not relying on SKETCH.
Wait Relm is relying on Sketch what.
If you wanted to make Relm more unique, apart from giving her unique spells, you could also just amplify her already existing niche and up her magic power.
EDIT: Honestly, equipment is such a big deal for character differentiation in FF6 that it often takes care of some characters' progression and differentiation. I think FF6 is a great game for it and the main reason other "learn what you want" systems like FF7-8 fall short of it to me is because they don't do what FF6 does with equips.
Well, FF7-8 made -everything- Learn What You Want while FF6 only made half of the available skills in the game universal. I personally dislike universal skills in general, so I was just extending from -that- idea when I mentioned that Relm would be relying on Sketch (since there would be no universal Esper-learned spells if I was making the hack). As for Setzer... yeah, I know Fixed Dice exists. I just liked the idea of Jump as a unique skill again, and Setzer seemed like a decent candidate, flavor-wise. I suppose Edgar would be the obvious choice to stay true to vanilla FF6.
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I just kept Jump limited to Edgar via Dragoon Boots, and made it Mog's Attack command to reflect him being a Dragoon. It gives Mog some extra use while keeping his job class theme intact.
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Mog is a Dragoon? News to me.
I'm pretty sure he's a Geomancer with Spears...
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The pseudo-official job combination for Mog is Geomancer/Dancer/Dragoon, even though in FFVI Advance he's just listed as a "Moogle". Not that VI Advance was terribly helpful for determining official job titles to begin with because they were so vague...
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Elfboy's right: I used to do SCCs while gamesharking myself to level 1 (around the same time the rest of the SCC community was moving to Solo SCCs--mostly I just find FFT a poor engine for solo games; hard solo fights often boil down to "turnintoacrystalturnintoacrystalturnintoaYESSSS"). I can get you the gameshark codes if you want them.
"Fenrir: For FFT at least, there's a GameShark code that does pretty much exactly what you say (not sure what it is... ask mc) which I'd imagine is probably easy enough to pull off on emulators (though... not certain)."
Everybody is at level 1? Sounds... Actually great yeah, but it would still be a lot better with some balance work (I don't know much about FFT, but everybody would have almost the same attack power late in the game but a lot less HPs, right?) Either that or everybody is at level 50 and battles take way too long at the beginning.
Damage is not the same at all. HP does become the same (except Mime and Monk which suck at HP due to lack of equipment). The money you gain from a fight is fixed to enemy level, which means the level 1 randoms are worthless. Enemy loot from randoms is also worthless.
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Now, on designing a patch to be played at level 1: yes, you could do this, and avoid most of the ways FFT isn't designed to work with this setup (like...have chapter 4 equipment not give +200 HP). Fixing level to 1 is actually something I probably would do if I ever get around to that hypothetical future FFT patch that I may or may not ever make. (It's definitely not something for LFT).
You'll want to ask what your audience is for this patch, though. Mindlessly grinding in FFT is...fun; it's theraputic. It's well...see Nicole Lazzaro's work--specifically relating to what she categorizes as "serious fun" -- relaxation/trance (http://www.xeodesign.com/whyweplaygames.html).
The place I would use a fixed level 1 design decision is if I was thinking something like "Screw that entire playstyle; this patch is all about brutally hard almost puzzle-like fights, and everything else takes a backseat." (Or whatever--the point is, there's nothing wrong with specializing your patch to a specific audience archetype, but you should very clearly define your intended audience before you start making these design decisions. It's also equally valid to appeal to multiple audience archetypes--that was the goal of LFT; you end up giving a diluted but almost-as-fun experience to a variety of people, as opposed to giving a "flawless" experience to one audience).
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Setzer already gets a huge upgrade in the WoR from Fixed Dice anyway, he himself progresses just fine even if Slots doesn't. I think most would argue Setzer is better in the WoR than the WoB!
I definitely would! Not only Fixed Dice but certain other more subtle factors like Setzer's appearance in the WoB comes when a good deal of flying enemies exist (and some of those enemies happen to be Ings, something you do NOT want to merely "Injure" so 7 Flush is useless), making Chocobop (a Meteor clone) really hard to see use of, and its notably better than 7 Flush on damage...WoR, flying enemies are not nearly as common, and hell, Cave to Ancient Castle is filled with Auto Reflect High Magic Defense Enemies that don't fly, which are excellent Chocobop Bait (...Quake is better, yes, but shut up)
EDIT: Honestly, equipment is such a big deal for character differentiation in FF6 that it often takes care of some characters' progression and differentiation. I think FF6 is a great game for it and the main reason other "learn what you want" systems like FF7-8 fall short of it to me is because they don't do what FF6 does with equips.
To be fair to FF7, it does at least try some equipment differentiations, like with Tifa's Powersoul, though yeah, nowhere near the extent FF7 does.
I generally agree that FF6 equipment is a big deal. Considering Equipment is one of the big reasons why Terra and Celes are often considered the higher end characters overall, as well as things like how Sabin despite the awesome of Bum Rush is regarded as middling, etc. FF6 overall did a good job of keeping characters unique, but in a way that was more than "The Skillset defines the character!" If FF6 had a flaw in its system, its that they made Magic TOO good as a universal command, undermining the usage of many unique skillsets though some do seem intended to have been worth usnig only for a window of time anyway (Tools is pretty obvious meant to be only really major in the WoB, when you just look at how you can get Chain Saw and they never upgrade in damage from there, just 2 Gimmicky Tools pop up, suggesting Tools were meant to be, at best, a utility late game, not a primary factor ala, say, Blitz)
I've stated this in the past though, and not sure how relevant it is here, but I think FF6's Magic being universal actually helps balance more than hurts it, despite what many may claim. Oh, sure, it makes the game EASIER, no questions asked, but that's more just the game not being hard and not being balanced to deal with it rather than internal PC balance.
With Magic, every character sans Umaro (who...was more poorly implemented) has a minimal level of use. A character with weak equipment and skillset can at least be used by handing them a few good spells, and they can perform a level of adequacy as either a utility character or whatever. And then some spells like Quick just make Cyan a lot more usable to begin with.
Without magic, we have some of the following problems like "Terra goes from strong PC to near Vital since she's your only reliable Healer" (making one of the best characters already arguably more useful kind of defeats the purpose...) or "Relm is nigh unusable"; Esper System at least allowed a minimal level usage for the entire cast (Umaro not withstanding), which honestly, for a game that promotes "Use who you want!" for a good part of it, that would be kind of annoying.
Now, tweaking spells to be more balanced? That's a better idea for the system. Like how Sage gimped Ultima from being "STUPID OVERPOWERED" to just plain "Best offensive spell in the game", and made Osmose actually require good Magic Power to use effectively (which helps establish Mages vs. Non-Mages better), those generally work better. Simply limiting spell usage...I dunno, kind of defeats the purpose.
I'll grant MF6 totally did away with the Esper system, but MF6 was trying for something completely differently obviously, and was attempted to be balanced around that, so its a completely different scenario (and the cast was completely redone too of course); keeping the FF6 cast "in spirit" but limiting Magic...i dunno, that can only lead to more unbalance, I'm thinking.
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Elfboy's right: I used to do SCCs while gamesharking myself to level 1 (around the same time the rest of the SCC community was moving to Solo SCCs--mostly I just find FFT a poor engine for solo games; hard solo fights often boil down to "turnintoacrystalturnintoacrystalturnintoaYESSSS"). I can get you the gameshark codes if you want them.
"Fenrir: For FFT at least, there's a GameShark code that does pretty much exactly what you say (not sure what it is... ask mc) which I'd imagine is probably easy enough to pull off on emulators (though... not certain)."
Everybody is at level 1? Sounds... Actually great yeah, but it would still be a lot better with some balance work (I don't know much about FFT, but everybody would have almost the same attack power late in the game but a lot less HPs, right?) Either that or everybody is at level 50 and battles take way too long at the beginning.
Damage is not the same at all. HP does become the same (except Mime and Monk which suck at HP due to lack of equipment). The money you gain from a fight is fixed to enemy level, which means the level 1 randoms are worthless. Enemy loot from randoms is also worthless.
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Now, on designing a patch to be played at level 1: yes, you could do this, and avoid most of the ways FFT isn't designed to work with this setup (like...have chapter 4 equipment not give +200 HP). Fixing level to 1 is actually something I probably would do if I ever get around to that hypothetical future FFT patch that I may or may not ever make. (It's definitely not something for LFT).
You'll want to ask what your audience is for this patch, though. Mindlessly grinding in FFT is...fun; it's theraputic. It's well...see Nicole Lazzaro's work--specifically relating to what she categorizes as "serious fun" -- relaxation/trance (http://www.xeodesign.com/whyweplaygames.html).
The place I would use a fixed level 1 design decision is if I was thinking something like "Screw that entire playstyle; this patch is all about brutally hard almost puzzle-like fights, and everything else takes a backseat." (Or whatever--the point is, there's nothing wrong with specializing your patch to a specific audience archetype, but you should very clearly define your intended audience before you start making these design decisions. It's also equally valid to appeal to multiple audience archetypes--that was the goal of LFT; you end up giving a diluted but almost-as-fun experience to a variety of people, as opposed to giving a "flawless" experience to one audience).
Not sure how much you've read my spreadsheets yet, but every item is equally balanced to be used all throughout the game, and only a few items are steal/Move-Find only. So it's more-or-less something I'm thinking of to help so stats don't get ridiculously high.
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Not sure how much you've read my spreadsheets yet, but every item is equally balanced to be used all throughout the game, and only a few items are steal/Move-Find only. So it's more-or-less something I'm thinking of to help so stats don't get ridiculously high.
I hadn't glanced at the items yet.
Looking at them, I don't think there's any particular concern in the long game--the equipment is stuff that would fit in fine with endgame FFT. Well, other than the usual "FFT's quadratic formula encourages people to attack with fists not weapons at high levels." (And you're already doing plenty to discourage that--like no Bracer equivalent and no Power Sleeve equivalent; actually, for all I know you've changed the damage formula on fists).
My concern would be more in the earlygame, when HP from class is going to be much smaller than HP from equipment. I'm guessing you were planning to deal with this by setting the level 1 HP much higher and then taking away the ability to level? That'd work. Another option would be to raise the starting HP and also significantly lower the HP growth.
Basically, you can balance reasonably effectively either way; FFT's system is fairly flexible like that.
What you should be doing is asking yourself what kind of game would you rather make? If you remove levelling, then you can be more precise in your designs; you can set things up so that the player can only survive by 1 HP and only with the right class/equipment; this is not something you could design normally. On the other hand, RPGs generally have a bit of an auto-correct difficulty, where if you're having trouble you will gain more levels, and thus the game gets easier...and you lose that when you don't have leveling. (And JP gain systems don't always have the same dynamic--in FFT an experienced player can make a much more powerful character with 1600 JP than a new player generally will with five times the JP).
But...yeah, roughly how I think about the design process is:
Step 1: Decide who your audience is.
Step 2: Figure out what large-scale systems are good or bad for that audience. Cull the bad. Keep or extend the good.
Step 3: Now that you've done that, go mess with some numbers for balancing (bearing in mind that, depending on the audience, the definition of "balancing" may change).
The decision to include or exclude levelling is such a large scale change that I feel like balance shouldn't be coming into the question yet; you can make a fairly balanced game with levelling, or without levelling regardless of when equipment shows up. It's a question of: does no-levelling match the kind of game you want to make?
(If the Aesthetic you're shooting for is "you get everything from the start", then it might be the right decision. Then again, increased choice is a different variable from the relaxation/trance of the grind. The reason most games don't do increased choice from the start is choice paralysis (http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun04/toomany.aspx), but you really shouldn't let that stop you--LFT definitely leaned on the side of "more options earlier!" because it worked under the assumption that LFT players already know FFT and therefore won't find the flood of options overwhelming).
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Not sure how much you've read my spreadsheets yet, but every item is equally balanced to be used all throughout the game, and only a few items are steal/Move-Find only. So it's more-or-less something I'm thinking of to help so stats don't get ridiculously high.
I hadn't glanced at the items yet.
Looking at them, I don't think there's any particular concern in the long game--the equipment is stuff that would fit in fine with endgame FFT. Well, other than the usual "FFT's quadratic formula encourages people to attack with fists not weapons at high levels." (And you're already doing plenty to discourage that--like no Bracer equivalent and no Power Sleeve equivalent; actually, for all I know you've changed the damage formula on fists).
My concern would be more in the earlygame, when HP from class is going to be much smaller than HP from equipment. I'm guessing you were planning to deal with this by setting the level 1 HP much higher and then taking away the ability to level? That'd work. Another option would be to raise the starting HP and also significantly lower the HP growth.
Basically, you can balance reasonably effectively either way; FFT's system is fairly flexible like that.
What you should be doing is asking yourself what kind of game would you rather make? If you remove levelling, then you can be more precise in your designs; you can set things up so that the player can only survive by 1 HP and only with the right class/equipment; this is not something you could design normally. On the other hand, RPGs generally have a bit of an auto-correct difficulty, where if you're having trouble you will gain more levels, and thus the game gets easier...and you lose that when you don't have leveling. (And JP gain systems don't always have the same dynamic--in FFT an experienced player can make a much more powerful character with 1600 JP than a new player generally will with five times the JP).
But...yeah, roughly how I think about the design process is:
Step 1: Decide who your audience is.
Step 2: Figure out what large-scale systems are good or bad for that audience. Cull the bad. Keep or extend the good.
Step 3: Now that you've done that, go mess with some numbers for balancing (bearing in mind that, depending on the audience, the definition of "balancing" may change).
The decision to include or exclude levelling is such a large scale change that I feel like balance shouldn't be coming into the question yet; you can make a fairly balanced game with levelling, or without levelling regardless of when equipment shows up. It's a question of: does no-levelling match the kind of game you want to make?
(If the Aesthetic you're shooting for is "you get everything from the start", then it might be the right decision. Then again, increased choice is a different variable from the relaxation/trance of the grind. The reason most games don't do increased choice from the start is choice paralysis (http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun04/toomany.aspx), but you really shouldn't let that stop you--LFT definitely leaned on the side of "more options earlier!" because it worked under the assumption that LFT players already know FFT and therefore won't find the flood of options overwhelming).
I'm going to try and break the post into pieces so I can address each issue indivdually.
1) "Looking at them, I don't think there's any particular concern in the long game--the equipment is stuff that would fit in fine with endgame FFT. Well, other than the usual "FFT's quadratic formula encourages people to attack with fists not weapons at high levels." (And you're already doing plenty to discourage that--like no Bracer equivalent and no Power Sleeve equivalent; actually, for all I know you've changed the damage formula on fists).
My concern would be more in the earlygame, when HP from class is going to be much smaller than HP from equipment. I'm guessing you were planning to deal with this by setting the level 1 HP much higher and then taking away the ability to level? That'd work. Another option would be to raise the starting HP and also significantly lower the HP growth."
-Simply put, I'm a mage fanboy. I absolutely hate it when physical classes outshine magical classes- which is what happened in FFT, for the most part. I'm really trying to promote magic by giving most classes magical options. Even physical classes like the Sentinel get magic. (i.e, Sentinel gets Protect/Shell, Viking gets Thunder/Water, Berserker gets Berserk, etc.) This will promote wanting to boost MA and elemental boosting even on physical units, so magic will (hopefully) get as much screentime as things like Wave Fist, Earth Slash, and Geomancy now. Addressing Barehanded attacks, the formula is -not- going to change, but Brave itself will. Basically, Brave is becoming "Fury", which is like a physical variant of Faith. The higher your Fury, the higher physical damage you deal, but the higher damage you take in return. The inverse is also true- lower Fury, lower damage taken and received.
-Regarding HP Growth/Multipliers... this is admittedly my weakness. I'm really not good at balance. This is further hampered by my indecisiveness about whether to maintain levelling (which I'll address below). For now, my primary concern is making sure skills work- growths/multipliers can be easily tweaked later and will likely be changed a ton anyways during playtesting.
2) "What you should be doing is asking yourself what kind of game would you rather make? If you remove levelling, then you can be more precise in your designs; you can set things up so that the player can only survive by 1 HP and only with the right class/equipment; this is not something you could design normally. On the other hand, RPGs generally have a bit of an auto-correct difficulty, where if you're having trouble you will gain more levels, and thus the game gets easier...and you lose that when you don't have leveling. (And JP gain systems don't always have the same dynamic--in FFT an experienced player can make a much more powerful character with 1600 JP than a new player generally will with five times the JP)."
-The concept of making each battle a puzzle is not new to me. It was more or less my plan to make bosses "puzzle-like" when I was making FFVI Hardtype. That said, for FFT, there's just so many various options and customisation, I don't really see how this is viable. There's just too much to cover when making puzzle-like battles. I think I'm making a more Tactics Ogre approach out of this, in that battles will most likely be longer (due to the high HP and survivability of units thanks to much more defensive equipment), and buffs/debuffs are thusly more important. So spending the 200 JP or whatever on a debuff might be worth it more in the end than taking the 500 JP level 2 elemental spell.
3) Regarding the "kind" of patch I'd like to produce, I already feel that I'm very much taking away from standard RPG fare, which is why I'm hesitant on removing levelling. I want there to be -some- sense of familiarity when playing PW, which is why I've left special jobs intact (mostly- although they've been rebalanced). It's also why I'm making Vanilla FFT Generics recruitable (although slightly modified due to limitations). I very much want to keep a Final Fantasy feeling while breathing fresh air into FFT. Hopefully that makes more sense than I think it did. :P
4) In general, my audience is really anyone who's bored of standard FFT fare. Now, I would love to open it up to a wider audience- which is namely why I don't intend for PW to be difficult. I want it to be -different-, not necessarily tedious or challenging. Obviously it'd be harder than Vanilla... but that's not saying much. As far as choice paralysis is concerned, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. That is my single biggest fear right now is that people will patch the ISO, boot it up, beat Orbonne, look at all the new jobs, skills, and items, go @_@ and never pick it up again. I'm really not sure what to do in that regard, other than put a HUGE disclaimer beforehand about trying out all the new skills and such.
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-The concept of making each battle a puzzle is not new to me. It was more or less my plan to make bosses "puzzle-like" when I was making FFVI Hardtype. That said, for FFT, there's just so many various options and customisation, I don't really see how this is viable. There's just too much to cover when making puzzle-like battles.
You have to design battles in ways FFT does not. Enemies with fixed zodiac, fixed equipment, fixed abilities. You also need to design player progression in a way FFT does not; a fixed selection of PC stats and abilities, removal of most random effects, removal of all game-breaking combos. 1.3 is a patch that jumps to mind as getting...80% of the way there. Last I looked at it, it still had a few too many moving parts for the specific purpose of making puzzle fights, but that seemed to be the direction they were headed in.
I think I'm making a more Tactics Ogre approach out of this, in that battles will most likely be longer (due to the high HP and survivability of units thanks to much more defensive equipment), and buffs/debuffs are thusly more important. So spending the 200 JP or whatever on a debuff might be worth it more in the end than taking the 500 JP level 2 elemental spell.
Hmm...my gut instinct is that long buff/debuff fights don't even necessarily need to be heavily reactionary, they're often more about mastering your own skills and getting into a zen buff sequence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)). I can definitely think of games where I would still have fun even if the enemy was a sack of HP with no attacks, because I'm trying to figure out the sequence of moves that reduces their HP to zero fastest.
If this is your focus, then I'd lean towards keeping levelling in. Done right, it could be the kind of system where a player accidentally levels to 99 because they were having too much fun playing with buff/debuff sequences.
-Simply put, I'm a mage fanboy. I absolutely hate it when physical classes outshine magical classes- which is what happened in FFT, for the most part.
In FFT? The top four best classes are like...all mages. (Summoner, Wizard, Calculator, Time Mage). At least in the PS1 version.
(Ack, got to go; will respond to rest later).
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I tried the FF6 hack!
- Terra can't equip the Dagger she has on at the beginning of the game, which seems to be a bug. This means I might never have Scan!
- I like how only the random-ass moogle team has a chance of beating the marshall. This took a lot more tries than it should have since the boss liked to target the only healer in the team with Stop, and unfortunately restarting this battle is a pain.
- Magitek armors. They are too overpowered. Mtek laser is a OHKO to both Terra and Locke and you have no options at this point. Restarting this battle takes ages if you don't savestate (I guess I should) This fight was just pure luck, I won by spamming Noiseblaster and... That's it. I got extremely lucky (For those who don't know, Noiseblaster targets your team too here)
Overall it's definitely fun, but so far there are a few issues. Most enemies have regular scrubby attacks + one giant pain in the ass attack (Blizzard, Marshall's charge, stop, sleep, Mtek laser for example so far) which makes randomness a big factor during battles.
Edit: And it makes some battles take longer than they should. Leafers have 100% sleep and like to use it -> Extremely long but not difficult regular battles.
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Simply put, I'm a mage fanboy. I absolutely hate it when physical classes outshine magical classes- which is what happened in FFT, for the most part.
Yeah, I have to second mc here. I think physical classes are the ones being outshone quite substantially if anything, if we're talking about vanilla PSX North American FFT anyway. I think only ninja and geomancer can actually be argued as outright good classes on the physical side and some would disagree with me on the latter. Knight/Archer/Thief are basically jokes.
EDIT: This board has this running topic of rating PCs on in-game use, and it has done FFT generics. Worth noting, the classes that scored above 5.5/10:
Chemist: 7.80
Priest 5.8
Wizard: 7.48
Time Mage: 6.55
Oracle: 6.78
Summoner: 7.99
Geomancer 5.82
Ninja: 7.41
Calculator 5.78
Obviously these can be quibbled with (I think calc is too low, but it is admittedly weird so I understand why it is where it is... also Oracle > Time Mage jumps out as something I don't agree with) but they still represent the average opinions of a lot of people who are pretty knowledgeable about these things.
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Yeah, I don't mean to be rude, but the stuff that people uses to gamebreak in FFT are the magical skillsets like Summon, Draw Out, Math Skill etc... about the only good Physical class is Ninja. Heavy Armor Monk gamebreaks Chapter 1 and then drops off like a rock in usefulness.
Even with Special Characters included (and they mostly suck) just adds Orlandu to the Physical side. Magic side gets Beowulf though so it kind of even outs, and Reis can be either while everyone else is pretty much crap in comparison.
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I told you how mc is the best right? Because mc is the best.
I remember reading this conversation this morning and wishing I could post from my phone. I was all excited to chip in with something and now the only thing I can remember wanting to say was this to Eternal.
Don't worry so much about balancing numbers well at this point. It is easier for you to balance around design choices you make along the way than it is for you to design around a bunch of balance changes you have made up front.
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-You're right- Draw Out, Summon, and Math Skill were amazing- but their classes, not so much. They all seemed fairly frail and the CT for certain spells was way too high, causing them to be midcharged unless you had Short Charge or the like.
"I told you how mc is the best right? Because mc is the best.
I remember reading this conversation this morning and wishing I could post from my phone. I was all excited to chip in with something and now the only thing I can remember wanting to say was this to Eternal.
Don't worry so much about balancing numbers well at this point. It is easier for you to balance around design choices you make along the way than it is for you to design around a bunch of balance changes you have made up front."
-I'm all about theme; balance and numbers have always came last to me. I would very much like to make it a balanced patch- and I'll do what I can to make it as balanced as possible- but it ultimately isn't my biggest fear right now, to be honest. (If that's what you were getting at.)
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-You're right- Draw Out, Summon, and Math Skill were amazing- but their classes, not so much. They all seemed fairly frail and the CT for certain spells was way too high, causing them to be midcharged unless you had Short Charge or the like.
Mmm, I don't agree with this. Black Mage is THE class you go to for any sort of magic-carrier because of its obscene MA multiplier, no question asked. The other carrier is Geomancer, which you can class as "Physical" maybe and that one is debatable amongst a number of people.
Almost all other mage class are at least usable with their own niches, for example Summoner being slow actually being sort of useful due to the CT system and Oracle can stick stuff.
On the other hand, for physical classes....
Monks - Terrible EQ choices and a skillset that's usually overhyped.
Archer - Charge longer than most casters, crappier results.
Knight - Takes decades to accomplish stuff, almost unusable without a ranged weapon like Gun, Heavy Armour sucks in FFT and doesn't really tank as well as you expect.
Really, physical classes for generic takes it up the bum if it wasn't just for one class - Ninja. I probably missed some physical classes which shows just how unremarkable they are.
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I tried the FF6 hack!
- Terra can't equip the Dagger she has on at the beginning of the game, which seems to be a bug. This means I might never have Scan!
- I like how only the random-ass moogle team has a chance of beating the marshall. This took a lot more tries than it should have since the boss liked to target the only healer in the team with Stop, and unfortunately restarting this battle is a pain.
- Magitek armors. They are too overpowered. Mtek laser is a OHKO to both Terra and Locke and you have no options at this point. Restarting this battle takes ages if you don't savestate (I guess I should) This fight was just pure luck, I won by spamming Noiseblaster and... That's it. I got extremely lucky (For those who don't know, Noiseblaster targets your team too here)
Overall it's definitely fun, but so far there are a few issues. Most enemies have regular scrubby attacks + one giant pain in the ass attack (Blizzard, Marshall's charge, stop, sleep, Mtek laser for example so far) which makes randomness a big factor during battles.
Edit: And it makes some battles take longer than they should. Leafers have 100% sleep and like to use it -> Extremely long but not difficult regular battles.
1) Terra's Dagger has been fixed in the updating I'm working on. Knew about it for a while but kept forgetting to fix it. >_>
2) Each team generally has to work together now to beat all the enemies. Using Locke and Mog to steal and clear out the enemies respectively to prepare the all-NPC Moogle team for Marshal.
3) Magitek Armors have been nerfed in the update I'm working on. :D
4) Leafer's Leaf Dance has been made evadeable now.
Glad you're enjoying it! Keep up with the updates! ^_^
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I told you how mc is the best right? Because mc is the best.
Nah, it's more that I have years of exposure from my job and from attending 7 GDCs. There are people who kick my ass at game design; I work with some of them--it's awesome. I love getting my ass kicked.
-Regarding HP Growth/Multipliers... this is admittedly my weakness. I'm really not good at balance. This is further hampered by my indecisiveness about whether to maintain levelling (which I'll address below). For now, my primary concern is making sure skills work- growths/multipliers can be easily tweaked later and will likely be changed a ton anyways during playtesting.
Yeah, not to worry: this is largely a forum of math nerds and literature nerds, so...about half of us could help you there. The gist of it is as follows: you'll want to adjust the raw starting HP/MP values for humans (because multipliers only go up to 255--which isn't enough; you'll probably want starting HPs more like 100 given your equipment numbers).
However, growth basically multiplies your level 1 stats, so...given classical FFT growths you'd be slamming up against 999 HP at high levels (making equipment that boosts HP kinda useless). Realistically, you probably want it to, say, start at 100 HP and end at 200 HP (about 100 growth) or a bit more aggressively, start at 100 HP and end at 300 HP (about 50 growth). Or alternatively, have the starting HP be 150 and go to 300 (about 100 growth). This is about the range where both the HP boost from equipment, and the HP multiplier on the class play a noticeable role. Obviously equipment will matter a bit more at lower levels, and class will matter a bit more at upper levels given these kinds of numbers, but neither one dwarfs the other in this range.
As far as choice paralysis is concerned, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. That is my single biggest fear right now is that people will patch the ISO, boot it up, beat Orbonne, look at all the new jobs, skills, and items, go @_@ and never pick it up again. I'm really not sure what to do in that regard, other than put a HUGE disclaimer beforehand about trying out all the new skills and such.
Well...hmm. Here's a radical concept that I've considered in the past:
Consider having less than 20 classes.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1839/too_many_clicks_unitbased_.php?page=2
Generally humans can hold 6-8 things in their mind simultaneously, though for games this gets reduced to 5-7 for games because one of the multitasking items is just using the controller--reading the UI, interfacing with the game.
I don't think it's a coincidence, then, that WoW has exactly 7 classes to choose from at the start of the game (and, what, 5 races per faction?) Furthermore, what's one of the most fun things to do in FFT challenges like SCCs? Choosing what hat to equip, and choosing what robe to equip. In the case of both hats and robes, there's...4-5 good ones that you'll be choosing between at most, and different ones are good in different fights.
Now, I'm not saying "you must have exactly 7 classes and 7 hats and...". But, you might find that some of your classes are basically filling the same role (for instance...glancing through your spreadsheet, a bunch of your mages have pretty much the same three spells just with different elements, and then a mixture of three statuses). You could probably combine some of these into one class, and end up with, say,12 classes that all have very distinct gameplay roles, instead of 20 classes, some of which are very similar.
Mmm, I don't agree with this. Black Mage is THE class you go to for any sort of magic-carrier because of its obscene MA multiplier, no question asked. The other carrier is Geomancer, which you can class as "Physical" maybe and that one is debatable amongst a number of people.
The physical carrier in Vanilla is Ninja, not Geo. Quite a bit more PA multiplier than Geo (according to the FFT Patcher they actually have 122 PA mult, not the 120 the BMG claims--so even more of a gap above Geo). 120 speed mult, better attack and movement than geo. Granted, there's only like...two physical skillsets to even be carried in vanilla (Jump and Punch Art), but Ninjas are also used as a speed carrier; best user of skills like Item and Talk Skill and such, and the status-based Mathskills. (Although honestly, the biggest reason to run a Ninja is nothing to do with carriers, and everything to do with "I want to guarantee that I don't lose to Roof of Riovanes")
Geo has a carrier role in vanilla, but as a shield carrier; if you're up against Balk (either fight) where elemental shields are the best thing ever, then MAU Geo is marginally better than Equip Shield Wizard, and there's no equivalent for Short Charge Geo. The other place Geo's good is Agrias--Geos equip swords and they're better than her base class.
EDIT:
They all seemed fairly frail and the CT for certain spells was way too high, causing them to be midcharged unless you had Short Charge or the like.
It's all about CT planning. You can land Meteor, the slowest spell in the game, without Short Charge up through Chapter 3. (In chapter 4 enemy speeds start to spread out, so you can't coordinate as effectively).
The place where spells really break down is level 99. And...well, one solution to that would be to make speed growth slower. If speed growths were typically 200 rather than 100, you'd have most classes capping out at 8 or 9 speed. It will also help if Thief Hat is not the default highest-level hat that all level 99 humans wear.
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The physical carrier in Vanilla is Ninja, not Geo.
Yeah, I didn't quite make myself clear. I was basically saying the only other competitor for carrying Magic-based skillsets is Geo, although some people might consider it a member of the "Physical" classes. Basically the argument was that caster classes didn't serve their purpose well, but in my experience, they serve their roles MUCH better than the physical classes that I mentioned (Knight/Archer/Monk)
Heck, come to think of it, I think we can add Samurai to the list of "Physical classes that doesn't do their jobs properly" for the bone-headed move of having a MA-based skillset on a class with terrible MA multipliers. Casters really have the better skillset and class unless you want to bring in Orlandu or something.
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Casters really have the better skillset and class unless you want to bring in Orlandu or something.
Even with Orlandu, almost every magic skillset has more versatility than All-Swordskill. Granted, no: Black Magic doesn't, but even Summon has stuff like Golem, and the number of versatility moves in Yin-Yang, Time, and White is...actually pretty ridiculous; like more than half of the powerful effects in the game are largely restricted to those three skillsets (and Mathskill).
Most of the rest of the game is just...damage, or unique but very weak effects (like Battle Skill). Orlandu's got power, and some versatility, but even if Holy Swordsman was a generic class replacing Knight, sure, it might replace your damage dealers (although mages probably outclass until chapter 3) but I'd still expect quite a bit of mage use for Haste/Protect/Shell/Raise/Faith/Quick, and maybe still Demi/Life Drain on bosses.
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Casters really have the better skillset and class unless you want to bring in Orlandu or something.
Even with Orlandu, almost every magic skillset has more versatility than All-Swordskill. Granted, no: Black Magic doesn't, but even Summon has stuff like Golem, and the number of versatility moves in Yin-Yang, Time, and White is...actually pretty ridiculous; like more than half of the powerful effects in the game are largely restricted to those three skillsets (and Mathskill).
Most of the rest of the game is just...damage, or unique but very weak effects (like Battle Skill). Orlandu's got power, and some versatility, but even if Holy Swordsman was a generic class replacing Knight, sure, it might replace your damage dealers (although mages probably outclass until chapter 3) but I'd still expect quite a bit of mage use for Haste/Protect/Shell/Raise/Faith/Quick, and maybe still Demi/Life Drain on bosses.
I would argue that the versatility provided by All-Swordskill is more useful than the versatility provided by magic. Being able to damage an enemy and break their gear, or drain a ton of HP/MP, or hell- even the statuses provided by All-Swordskill- are more useful than almost anything magic can do. This is admittedly in part due to the gear Orlandu has, but I'd say he's not less versatile than most of the mages (with the exception of the Calculator). Just my two cents.
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The thing that makes Orlandu SEEM better than he actually is goes back to the whole "insurance policy" thing he is. He's always got this minimal level of worth due to high stats, strong skillset and coming equipped with Excalibur and a Bracer out of the box. For most less-experienced players, he really stands out as being this omnipotent god of sorts, and tends to rule the late game in comparison.
For a more experienced player? Yeah, he doesn't seem quite as dominating anymore; not bad, sure, but many will acknowledge he can be outdone by well built up characters. He's kind of like FE10's Laguz Royals, except that FE10 is a game where "Stats mean everything" in a sense, so they ARE actually as good as they appear to be, where as Orlandu, he's only as good as your team is bad, if that makes sense.
He kind of reminds me of people who claim "Sabin = Overpowered!" in FF6, cause to be fair, Blitz IS a strong damage skillset which insures Sabin's damage always hits above a certain threshold regardless of what kind of work put into him (well, that and a few areas are rather weighted in his favor. The entire early WoR has a lot of Fire weak enemies, so if Celes doesn't know Fire 2, Sabin will REALLY stand out as some sort of offensive god there); anyone who actually takes time to look at damage numbers, recognize the truth of the scenario, and bothers to use the Esper System starts to notice Sabin, while not necessarily BAD, is not this "Overpowered Death God" some make him out to be.
Granted, Sabin's around for a good portion of the game while Orlandu is a late game person only, so its kind of a different scenarios, as Sabin's doing well the entire game = people use him the entire game = other characters don't get their chance to shine = HE'S OVERPOWERED! Orlandu, its your team is struggling -> Orlandu joins -> Oh look, he just did MUCH MORE DAMAGE than anyone else in my team -> Maps get easier -> ORLANDU IS BROK'D!
Does everyone have this experience? Of course not, but it happens enough that its understandable why that happens.
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Casters really have the better skillset and class unless you want to bring in Orlandu or something.
Even with Orlandu, almost every magic skillset has more versatility than All-Swordskill. Granted, no: Black Magic doesn't, but even Summon has stuff like Golem, and the number of versatility moves in Yin-Yang, Time, and White is...actually pretty ridiculous; like more than half of the powerful effects in the game are largely restricted to those three skillsets (and Mathskill).
Most of the rest of the game is just...damage, or unique but very weak effects (like Battle Skill). Orlandu's got power, and some versatility, but even if Holy Swordsman was a generic class replacing Knight, sure, it might replace your damage dealers (although mages probably outclass until chapter 3) but I'd still expect quite a bit of mage use for Haste/Protect/Shell/Raise/Faith/Quick, and maybe still Demi/Life Drain on bosses.
I would argue that the versatility provided by All-Swordskill is more useful than the versatility provided by magic. Being able to damage an enemy and break their gear, or drain a ton of HP/MP, or hell- even the statuses provided by All-Swordskill- are more useful than almost anything magic can do. This is admittedly in part due to the gear Orlandu has, but I'd say he's not less versatile than most of the mages (with the exception of the Calculator). Just my two cents.
Thing is? Dead is dead. If you know how to use mages in FFT, you should be able to OHKO two to four people in one spell, at least early on; Same with Orlandu late in the game...at which point any equipment breaking and statuses you might do is pretty irrelevant. Healing HP/MP is All Swordskill's big point of versatility, yes...but it's also only able to heal HP/MP to the user--can't heal or revive a teammate (and even Summon Magic, the second least versatile magic set, can heal teammates). And the point about good versatility is that there's always a niche for it--if you have four Holy Swordsmen in your party in Chapter 1, you're crazy not to pick up Haste, for example. Maybe it's a Holy Swordsman with Time Magic secondary, but Haste is such a good buff that you shouldn't skip it.
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I told you how mc is the best right? Because mc is the best.
Nah, it's more that I have years of exposure from my job and from attending 7 GDCs. There are people who kick my ass at game design; I work with some of them--it's awesome. I love getting my ass kicked.
You still have no idea just how much fun you are. >_> Also holy shit it has been like 7 years now? Time flies. I forget how long you have been in the industry for. Now I feel old and unfulfilled again.
Well...hmm. Here's a radical concept that I've considered in the past:
Consider having less than 20 classes.
...
I don't think it's a coincidence, then, that WoW has exactly 7 classes to choose from at the start of the game (and, what, 5 races per faction?) Furthermore, what's one of the most fun things to do in FFT challenges like SCCs? Choosing what hat to equip, and choosing what robe to equip. In the case of both hats and robes, there's...4-5 good ones that you'll be choosing between at most, and different ones are good in different fights.
Definitely not a coincidence, it really helps to be able to gauge what a class or player is likely to do at a given time based on their class in both PVE and PVP with group make up and combat in WoW. Not only that but there has been recent discussions about the number of spells in the game and abilities that are used in core rotations and whatnot. They have said they thing the rough floating point for number of skills you should have to use at high frequency is 4. Now given that the magic number for short term memory is 7 that seems low so people bitch and moan about making the game easy mode for casuals, but that is ignoring stuff like movement, keeping an eye for boss abilities, using situational abilities that are good for that fight (dispels, interrupts, or just straight up obscure technical play) and where your allies are given how massive a component of WoW PVE you and where you are in relation to other players is for so many encounters.
Then of course we have the much better poster child for good design tm. TF2 floats at the top end of the scale at 9, but given versatile roles and map types you aren't likely to run into all 9 at once. You have to only juggle a certain amount of data at a given time and it does make for a fairly quick learning curve for a game that seems like it should be much harder to handle than TF2 is (ie see how much of a pain in the arse it was to learn all those same 9 classes in TFC!). It is all of course magnified by how much Valve put into making everything so iconinc.
Also see all that talk about FFT? The best.
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Banon > Lete River
1) Terra's Dagger has been fixed in the updating I'm working on. Knew about it for a while but kept forgetting to fix it. >_>
2) Each team generally has to work together now to beat all the enemies. Using Locke and Mog to steal and clear out the enemies respectively to prepare the all-NPC Moogle team for Marshal.
3) Magitek Armors have been nerfed in the update I'm working on. :D
4) Leafer's Leaf Dance has been made evadeable now.
Glad you're enjoying it! Keep up with the updates! ^_^
Kohl mountains, Tunnel Armor, South Figaro and Doma Castle were all great. Edgars is OP, but that's to be expected.
The phantom train is annoying though. I don't think it was a good idea to make a place with no reliable healing source much more difficult. Bombs can easily OHKO for example, same thing with other monsters and Drain, and you can't buy phoenix downs. The only way to heal that is to buy sleeping bags from a friendly ghost (but you need to find it), then find a save point.
It gets better once you get to the restaurant though. I really liked the phantom train boss. (seems impossible, until you notice monsters drop phoenix downs / hi potions like crazy)
I've noticed this playthrough that this game's plot is really random and inconsistent. I just took it for granted before, as it was one of my first RPGs.
- Moogles ex machina out of nowhere to help you
- Random martial arts rivalry plot that gets resolved immediately
- Random phantom train that leads souls to death
- Giant talking octopus out of nowhere
- Sabin leaves the party because he does an insane suplex jump to that octopus
- For some reason Locke is so awesome he can guess a password without any hints
- Bad guy is a clown
- Random girl can suddendly be an opera singer. The tricky part is remembering the lyrics
- Opera out of nowhere, for that matter
- Dude attacks people with dices and slot machines
- Dude watches everyone he knows and loves, including his wife and his son, die before his eyes, then becomes comic relief 3 minutes later
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Also holy shit it has been like 7 years now? Time flies. I forget how long you have been in the industry for. Now I feel old and unfulfilled again.
6 years, just...my first GDC was like two weeks after I started. And don't worry about feeling old and unfulfilled; I get that too, but probably for different stuff than you.
Definitely not a coincidence, it really helps to be able to gauge what a class or player is likely to do at a given time based on their class in both PVE and PVP with group make up and combat in WoW. Not only that but there has been recent discussions about the number of spells in the game and abilities that are used in core rotations and whatnot. They have said they thing the rough floating point for number of skills you should have to use at high frequency is 4. Now given that the magic number for short term memory is 7 that seems low so people bitch and moan about making the game easy mode for casuals, but that is ignoring stuff like movement, keeping an eye for boss abilities, using situational abilities that are good for that fight (dispels, interrupts, or just straight up obscure technical play) and where your allies are given how massive a component of WoW PVE you and where you are in relation to other players is for so many encounters.
Then of course we have the much better poster child for good design tm. TF2 floats at the top end of the scale at 9, but given versatile roles and map types you aren't likely to run into all 9 at once. You have to only juggle a certain amount of data at a given time and it does make for a fairly quick learning curve for a game that seems like it should be much harder to handle than TF2 is (ie see how much of a pain in the arse it was to learn all those same 9 classes in TFC!). It is all of course magnified by how much Valve put into making everything so iconinc.
Starcraft 2 (arguably well-designed) takes things way above 7.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Unit_Statistics
There's...20 things here. The thing the game does is mentally group them. Larva, Queens, Drones, and Overlords fall into the "macro" mental category. Mutalisks, Brood Lords, and Corruptors are "air force". Roach, Hydra, Zergling, Baneling, Ultralisk are ground army. Spore and Spine crawlers are static defence. Infestors, Overseers, and Queens are spellcasters. Creep Tumors and Nydus Worms and Overlords are transportation. In short, about six super mental categories, and then about 3-5 items in each mental category.
They also use a fair bit of mental trickery--there's only nine units you can build in the standard way. But then there are five more units that another unit can morph into, and about five more that are constructed in unorthodox ways like casting spells or selecting a specific building.
And it should be noted, an experienced FFT player does something similar. There's a mental split between carrier classes, skillset classes, and classes used for RSM pickup. Furthermore, when constructing any one character, an experienced FFT player will mentally exclude about 10 classes this character is unlikely to ever use. Granted, all this comes with experience--the same way a Chess player starts mentally grouping pieces together; this doesn't help the newbie. (The job unlock sequence does help for newbies, mind you).
So yes: there are ways and tricks to get above 7, but 20 is definitely pushing the upper limit.
Notably, 20 tends to brush against some gameplay-role limit as well, where, in most gameplay systems, it's hard to have 20 unique roles; Blizzard gave a talk at GDC where they pretty much admitted "yeah, we don't know what we're going to do for Heart of the Swarm, because people will be expecting a new unit, and...there isn't really space for new units with unique gameplay roles, unless we obsolete existing units." We definitely slammed up against that problem in LFT, too, where a few classes just ended up...similar with small differences; I'm not even talking about the obvious ones like Thief/Ninja here. Bard/Ninja, for instance, both ended up near the top of the speed curve, with excellent physical attacks, low durability, and stats that don't make them especially attractive as a carrier. (And sure, part of that is because we deliberately tried to stay close to the original FFT; you could probably squeeze out more unique roles than LFT did, but there's an upper limit before you start getting overlap).
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I've noticed this playthrough that this game's plot is really random and inconsistent. I just took it for granted before, as it was one of my first RPGs.
- Moogles ex machina out of nowhere to help you
- Random martial arts rivalry plot that gets resolved immediately
- Random phantom train that leads souls to death
- Giant talking octopus out of nowhere
- Sabin leaves the party because he does an insane suplex jump to that octopus
- For some reason Locke is so awesome he can guess a password without any hints
- Bad guy is a clown
- Random girl can suddendly be an opera singer. The tricky part is remembering the lyrics
- Opera out of nowhere, for that matter
- Dude attacks people with dices and slot machines
- Dude watches everyone he knows and loves, including his wife and his son, die before his eyes, then becomes comic relief 3 minutes later
You say "inconsistent and random", I say "brilliant use of dream logic and comedic timing"
I may, of course, be a tad bit biased.
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Whoa, holy hell, for some reason I didn't get an e-mail regarding all of these replies! Sorry about that.
I'll address all your points in a bit. (Food time!)
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Whoa, holy hell, for some reason I didn't get an e-mail regarding all of these replies! Sorry about that.
I'll address all your points in a bit. (Food time!)
Hm, maybe the forum reset email preferences for this topic when I spun the welcome posts into their own topic?
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I wouldn't say FF6 is inconsistent, but rather, more just bi-polar. If you look at where this comedic stuff happens, its often right after some heavy handed stuff was dealt with, in a sense.
The Opera House is a big example to me. FF6 just went into some depth with Espers, we learn Magicite is their remains and they're dying, that the Empire has imprisoned them, etc. We also Terra's in this state where she's downright afraid of herself, and we learn we have to sneak the enemy strong hold to save these Espers, and potentially Terra. This is all some serious stuff (or at least, relative to its era, it was)...
So what's FF6 do? Lighten the mood with a completely absurd scenario in the Opera House. The very nature of the Opera House was not meant to be taken seriously at all; that's why they can get away with stuff like "Celes learns the entire score in a single day!" The sequence was meant to be a comedic interlude between the "deep" plot stuff and the actual going into enemy territory, to give you a breather from the plot and let the developers and writers just have some fun. The entire sequence is absurd and very clearly meant to be comical, between the absurd scenario, dialog, etc.
...and yet, people take the Opera as a moment of FF6 for HIGH CLASS DRAMA, which is just grating. Ok, the scene is stylish (mostly for its unique merits), but stylish does not make drama, it jsut makes it "cool and memorable." The scene is not an integral part of FF6, and the Opera itself does little for the characters in question. It was clearly a humor toned sequence overall, but no wait, THE OPERA ITSELF IS SUPER SERIOUS THEREFOR THE SEQUENCE IS SERIOUS!
...uh, ok, so I guess FF9's early game Shakespeare Knock Off section must be entirely serious too cause I Want To Be Your Canary is a serious play; nevermind all the ridiculous stuff going on the side, including Steiner's poor acting, THE PLAY IS SERIOUS THEREFOR THE SEQUENCE IS!
...yeah, I just want to punch FF6 Opera Fanboys often, since they completely miss the point of that sequence
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...and yet, people take the Opera as a moment of FF6 for HIGH CLASS DRAMA, which is just grating. Ok, the scene is stylish (mostly for its unique merits), but stylish does not make drama, it jsut makes it "cool and memorable." The scene is not an integral part of FF6, and the Opera itself does little for the characters in question. It was clearly a humor toned sequence overall, but no wait, THE OPERA ITSELF IS SUPER SERIOUS THEREFOR THE SEQUENCE IS SERIOUS!
...uh, ok, so I guess FF9's early game Shakespeare Knock Off section must be entirely serious too cause I Want To Be Your Canary is a serious play; nevermind all the ridiculous stuff going on the side, including Steiner's poor acting, THE PLAY IS SERIOUS THEREFOR THE SEQUENCE IS!
http://www.ludix.com/moriarty/images/minigame.gif