Author Topic: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)  (Read 109029 times)

Grefter

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #125 on: May 28, 2011, 02:40:48 AM »
I don't have much to add other than to really question that people seriously expected Magic to be broken by giant creatures in the follow up to Mirrordin?  Do people forget what the fuck was truely broken in Mirrordin in the first place?  I know giant indestuctible 9/9s look really good or Artifact angels that make it so you can't lose also look batshit insane, but seriously, they didn't think it was going to be equipment?

RE: Jace, I was so happy when I ran into this one day entirely by accident when I was giggling about Gerard with Laggy one day when Witcher 2 came up.

Same new broken shit is broken.  Hueg creatures with tons of abilities being broken is so 2001.  That said, this shit is fucking awesome and flavoursome to the max
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #126 on: May 28, 2011, 02:43:16 AM »
Terrible wording on that card, though.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Grefter

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #127 on: May 28, 2011, 03:08:26 AM »
Magic wording does have to be fairly tortured at time.  You can't put it in more plain language of whenever a player does damage to Phyrexian blah blah they have to sac permanents equal to the damage dealt because that shit would be rule lawyered out the arse (players don't do damage, How much damage does something take, who owns the card blah blah blah).
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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #128 on: May 28, 2011, 03:25:51 AM »
That said, this shit is fucking awesome and flavoursome to the max

Oh well yeah, New Phyrexia is probably my pick for the set with the best flavour ever.  Like...I actually read and enjoyed reading some of their backstory.

Elesh says hi
How can something so green seem so evil?
Did somebody say sympathetic borg?
Oh hi jin
Powerful or not, this design fits their backstory so well

EDIT:
I don't have much to add other than to really question that people seriously expected Magic to be broken by giant creatures in the follow up to Mirrordin?  Do people forget what the fuck was truely broken in Mirrordin in the first place?  I know giant indestuctible 9/9s look really good or Artifact angels that make it so you can't lose also look batshit insane, but seriously, they didn't think it was going to be equipment?

To be fair...the broken stuff from Mirrodin, outside of artifact lands and a couple of other Affinity cards, is like...Tooth and Nail, and Rude Awakening, which cost 9 and 8 respectively, which are both...well, creature based anyhow.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 03:38:04 AM by metroid composite »

SnowFire

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #129 on: May 28, 2011, 11:09:36 PM »
Darksteel was just generally broken, even ignoring the obvious (Ravager, Arcbound Worker).  Everybody agrees Umezawa's Jitte was broken, for example, and now consider that post-RAffinity bannings, many decks still played Sword of Fire & Ice over it.  Even a bunch of seemingly harmless stuff from DS saw play, like Spire Golem (the Affinity for Islands artifact).

I wouldn't really call Rude Awakening broken.  It's a neat win condition for land-heavy decks and can double as a combo-enabler, but at 5-9 mana, it's pretty balanced.  Don't mind banning it in Prismatic, though, as it is kinda auto-winny.

I haven't really been playing MTGO in awhile.  Mythic rare really are pretty meh as far as I'm concerned, plus generally got distracted by other stuff.  That said, Caw-Blade does look pretty brokenly powerful.  Infinite 1/1s to carry Swords backed by control?  Ow.  That said, the establishment of the Modern format sounds interesting - I hated the new Extended rotation policy of constantly updating the start date, forcing decks to be constantly remade, and then they massively shortened Extended's reach anyway.  Not that I'd really been playing since then, but still.  At least with Modern, I won't have to be constantly throwing out cards.  Though I buy the whole "modern card frames are an easy identifier" argument, it's still too bad that Invasion / Odyssey / Onslaught aren't included - they're fun sets.

So, remind me, does anybody else here actually have an MTGO account?  I'm Snowflame there and can throw together some of my old decks from the MTGO 2.0 days if needed.

Grefter

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2011, 01:24:59 AM »
Man anyone that didn't agree that Umezawa's Jitte was broken back when it was in play must be soft in the head.  Seriously that card completely ruined my trying to get back into the game when it was out.
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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2011, 02:21:00 PM »
Snow: if you don't like Rude Awakening as an example...then Myr Incubator.  Or post bannings Memnarch was pretty heavily used.

And I agree these aren't broken.  But the point is Mirrodin wasn't immune to tournament-dominating high CMC cards; in fact it had a bunch.

And yes, Sword of Fire and Ice is really, really good.  Probably fourth best equipment behind all the ones that have been banned in some format (those being Scullclamp, Sword of the Meek, Jitte).   At least you can always just play an artifact wall and block it, though.

As for the affinity for islands guy...that whole cycle was good if you were playing mono-colour with lots of basic lands.  The white one also got used a bunch.  It mostly came down to "do you have a monocolour deck that wants a midrange creature".

Also, out of principle, Darksteel rants should mention Aether Vial >_>

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2011, 08:53:59 PM »
6 Pooling

If I'm going to 2v2 with Laggy, clearly I need to get good at it.  Thing is, it's not as straightforward as I thought.  In SC1 there's one 4 pool build.  In SC2 there are a number of 6 pool choices.  Let's go over them...

The basic....
Pool
Drone
Drone
3 Lings
Overlord
More lings; get a Queen eventually.

The build Laggy had me using last night.  Here's what I don't like about this build: so...you build six lings, and then you wait for the money to build an overlord, and then you wait for the overlord to finish, which altogether is almost 50 seconds before you build any lings beyond the initial six.  Given that you can expect about 15 workers by the time you arrive, not only can the opponent fend off the initial six lings with workers, but they'll probably have more workers than you after they do.

Extractor trick variant:
Same as above but extractor trick for an extra ling built before Overlord.

Honestly this is probably what I should have been doing last night.  Two more Zerglings quickly reinforcing would make a big difference.  It would change the Ling vs worker fight significantly.

Double extractor trick variant:
Same as above, but extractor trick a second time.

This might actually be worth it, too.  My gut instinct tells me it's more important to get 8 lings to their base soon than to get the 10th ling a fraction of a second earlier, so extractor, ling, don't cancel the extractor, save up to 75, extractor, ling, cancel, cancel.  According to my spreadsheet, this might still get the 10th ling into their base a full 20 seconds earlier than the overlord route.

Prepool Overlord 6-pool version
Pool
Drone
Overlord
4 Lings
keep pumping lings forever

I actually got this one off of Liquipedia.  Here's why this one is attractive: all of your post-pool larva become lings; none get wasted on becoming Overlords, so it will produce 2 more total lings than any of the above builds. The downside is the initial attack has only 4 lings but the theory is that against Protoss this is ok, since only 4 lings will be able to attack the wall-off building of choice, so you may as well have more lings when the wall falls.


Maximum offence variant:
Pool
6 lings
Pump lings
Double extractor trick for more lings

5 drones is enough to support pumping lings forever (but nothing else; Overlords are too expensive).  This gives you 6 initial lings, and constant ling streams until 14 lings.  Heaven help you if you ever want more than 14 lings, though.



...
Ok, that's enough for one post.  Next post I might go into some other options, like 10 pool.

SnowFire

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2011, 09:18:06 PM »
Yeah, Aether Vial was pretty broken too.  Its applications for aggressive decks like Goblins were kind of obvious, but funny I left it out, as control decks would still use it...  with Sword of Fire & Ice.  Whee, the wimpy Grim Lavamancers / Dark Confidants / Voidmage Prodigies / etc. just became awesome.

Interesting comments on 6 pool variants.  Never tried the Overlord first version, but sounds interesting.  I'll just chime and say that I'm definitely a fan of the 10 pool for team Zerg, especially for larger maps.  The nice thing about the 10 pool is that you (can) get speed - very nice for reinforcements and nice in the case of separate bases where one enemy may have walled up, but the others didn't, so it may be a longer jog than anticipated.  (To be clear, I'm talking about Drone to 10 - Extractor - Drone - Pool - OL - Drone).  Since you have an economy, the game isn't over if they walled up - speedlings are just fine for controlling the map then.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2011, 10:55:44 PM »
Yep, that build is definitely on my to-write-about (although yeah: it's another build I didn't think of last night).

In particular, I'm not happy with 6-pool against Zerg.  The initial six zerglings can be fought off with 15 drones from an econ build, without losing the econ advantage, and from then on I'm out-zerglinged.  The defending zerg even gets options like queen defence and spine crawlers.

That said, an adaptation I'd like to try: against zerg (and at this point most teams Laggy and I face will have Zerg...)

Replace the Overlord with a spine crawler in the opponent's base (they both cost 100 minerals).  Send out a Drone timed to arrive with the six Zerglings or fractionally before.  Build a Spine preferably next to their hatchery and defend it with the six zerglings.

Hmm...this is definitely compatible with the extractor trick.  Double extractor trick before spine...I'm thinking might delay the spine 5 seconds or so (travel time between bases is...30 seconds?  Less?)  Granted, extractor tricking after spine is an option too.

This should, at least, kill 13 pool (which 6 pool fails at normally).  A defensive 10 pool pulling drones would hold it off, of course.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2011, 05:56:53 AM »
I remain pretty set on 13pool as Z, even against other Z.

2v2 scouting should be timed to reveal a 6pool around when it's leaving your base, or at least on the way. I'm quite willing to pull most of my drones to defend against this; if your lings fight, they'll probably die and I'll still be ahead of you in drone count. If they don't fight and dance to deny me mining, my pool will eventually finish and I can dump my own crawler or put down my own lings, get a queen, whatever. Keep in mind if you pull a drone and place a crawler, you must fight to defend it against my drones; even if you cancel, you're down a precious drone and 25 minerals- actually important to a low-econ zerg.

This works best, of course, if your ally is supporting you. But presuming a non-Z player, hopefully my own ally will negate his efforts (my ally can afford to pull workers, too- if we defend the 6pool the Z is not going to be doing much for a while and we should be able to expand or tech or mass relatively safely, then move out to win in one sweep). If you're double Z, you can of course go totally all-in on me and kill me, I don't think any Z build can actually stop a double-6 pool (unlike P and T, who can both wall and survive, and their marines/zealots will be cost-efficient against your non-speedlings.)

But what I can do is give all my money to my friend and keep your lings busy as long as possible, since both of you will end up in a weakened situation against my ally in that case. 2v1 against double 6pool zerg is actually a hard guess; T can gun for hellions and render your army useless, or get banshees (you're gonna be a ways away from anti-air tech unless you go all-out on crawlers); P can of course get voidrays which are already obnoxious to deal with for all Z's everywhere.
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Carthrat

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2011, 06:04:40 AM »
In fact, I want to remind myself, right now, to scout at like 9-10 against Z or Random opponents from now on like no matter what.
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OblivionKnight

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #137 on: June 01, 2011, 11:00:54 PM »
Non-6-pool topic that's Starcraft-related:

This is purely for variety's sake, and I don't know (though I could guess) how balance would go, but I want to see more variety in bonus damage types. 

Terran
Armoured: Marauder, Siege Tank, Viking (air only)
Light: Reaper, Ghost, Hellion, Thor (air only)
Structure: Reaper (well, technically not, I guess, since it's a different attack, but close enough)

Zerg
Light: Baneling
Armoured: Ultralisk, Infestor (Fungal Growth)
Massive: Corruptor
Structure: Baneling (see Reaper comments)

Protoss
Light: Phoenix
Armoured: Stalker, Immortal, Void Ray
Massive: Void Ray (stacking with armoured)
Biological: Archon

I'd love to see a mechanical bonus, or psionic bonus.  Some of those bonus don't make a major difference (+4 Stalker damage to armoured), and some are big (Immortal vs. armoured). 
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #138 on: June 02, 2011, 02:20:40 PM »
See, I'd actually like to see less variety in bonus damage types.

Archon, for instance; what's with the bonus to Biological?  Do Archons really need to be worse against Colossus-Stalker balls?  How about Siege Tank-Thor balls?  How about Carrier balls?


I'm all-for Light, Armoured, and Structure damage bonuses.  But I'm definitely against stuff that ends up very race-specific, like "Biological".  Even "Massive" vs air is a bit questionable to me, since it's pretty-much a "let's artificially change the Protoss matchup" (While simultaneously making Carriers and Battlecruisers cry even more.  It's noteworthy that Carriers are only used against Terran, the race that doesn't have a "bonus to massive" unit).

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #139 on: June 02, 2011, 05:52:14 PM »
Yeah, I'm mostly speaking for the sake of variety/coolness.  I'd just like to see variety in damage bonus - we have all those extra unit types (psionic, mechanical), it would be cool to see them used more.  It doesn't have to be a game-changing bonus, to me - moreso flavour than anything. 

I've seen some discussion about Blizzard changing Corruptor bonus to armoured instead of massive, though.
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Grefter

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #140 on: June 02, 2011, 10:23:10 PM »
If it is there it will be game changing unless there is only one end game unit for each race or you half gimp one build order for its defense vs a type of play until the final unit.  If you have multiple end game units that you need to keep viable then you are already balancing on a razors edge.  Adding in something like that, even if it is flavoursome is going to be game changing at a high level of play especially.

Edit - Also if the bonsues aren't big enough to actually have any real effect then you create noob traps as well.  What do you mean firebats are terrible to use against zerglings they have a bonus to biological?!?!?!? kind of situations might turn up (NOTE: Example only, not factual statement).  Stuff like that is very much counter to the core philosophy Bilzzard have been doing in games for the last couple of releases.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 10:26:42 PM by Grefter »
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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #141 on: June 03, 2011, 04:28:42 AM »
If it is there it will be game changing unless there is only one end game unit for each race or you half gimp one build order for its defense vs a type of play until the final unit.  If you have multiple end game units that you need to keep viable then you are already balancing on a razors edge.  Adding in something like that, even if it is flavoursome is going to be game changing at a high level of play especially.

Eh?

Let's say Corruptors went from bonus: Massive to bonus: Armored.  What does this even change?  The grand total of all flying armored units that are not also massive is...

Corruptors
Vikings
Void Rays
Flying Terran Buildings

I'm not remotely concerned about Corruptors or Flying Terran Buildings.  Void Rays...honestly I'd be fine with that.  Void Rays have this stupid thing of "they're cost effective against every single Zerg unit...except like, Hydras, but you're Protoss; you have lots of ways to make Hydras a joke."  And Vikings...are they even used in TvZ?  Or Corruptors, for that matter?  So...high level play wouldn't notice too much; people would probably not use Void Rays anymore in lategame PvZ, but that's fine.

What this might adversely affect is island maps.  Let's suppose Vikings can't handle Corruptors now (for the sake of argument).  Does Zerg just auto-win on island maps?  I mean, I doubt the races are balanced on island maps as-is, but at least in air fights, all the races have a unit that at least seems like it's almost the same cost efficiency as its competitor's air-to-air units.

Quote
Edit - Also if the bonsues aren't big enough to actually have any real effect then you create noob traps as well.  What do you mean firebats are terrible to use against zerglings they have a bonus to biological?!?!?!? kind of situations might turn up (NOTE: Example only, not factual statement).  Stuff like that is very much counter to the core philosophy Bilzzard have been doing in games for the last couple of releases.

SC2 has plenty of that.  Like...Zerglings used to kill Hellions is a common one.  Roaches used against Stalkers is another.  Or even better, Roaches used as a response to Void Rays; not that they're good at killing the Void Ray, but they can go crush the opponent and ignore the void ray.  In fact...



What's another one?  Hm...Protoss wanting Stalkers early to deal with Marauders (even though it very clearly lists in game: Marauders counter Stalkers...when you only have 3-5 units total though, the range matters).  Blink Stalkers being good against Zerglings.  Infestors are good against Marines even though they deal bonus damage to armored!  Oh, speaking of, Siege Tanks are also good against Marines.  As are Ultralisks.  Oh, while we're at it, Marines are cost effective against Reapers.


So...with all due respect, Gref, I think you're wrong, or at least you're assuming that game design from WoW is being applied to game design from SC2, where that doesn't actually seem to be the case.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #142 on: June 03, 2011, 08:01:00 AM »
Hey mc, there's a new version of Desktop Dungeons with a new mode where all enemies apparently have boss multipliers even when they're not level 10 (which means goats are insane)

I would be interested to see how you break it.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #143 on: June 03, 2011, 12:42:14 PM »
Without even having played it...(this is the theorycraft topic...)

Boss multipliers are funny; I'm not sure whether most bosses are considered to have 100% HP or 200% HP.  I'm guessing 200%, though, otherwise a lot of these bosses aren't going to look that different from their non-boss counterparts (snakes, for instance, and goats would be frequently dispatched with first strike).

So...the primary difference is that HPs are doubled.  This is abuseable with regen tactics as damage will still be low.  (So...Monk, Transmuter in the old verion).  The problem is just overall resources: having enough unexplored tiles.  The other thing to note, however, is that...this isn't that hard: Gauntlet level 20 doubles everyone's HP...and doubles their attack, and gives the same doubling to the boss.  This sounds more like Gauntlet Level 10 difficulty...i.e. probably beatable with lots of suboptimal class/deity combos, and shouldn't require breaking the game via something like Binlor.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #144 on: June 03, 2011, 12:49:09 PM »
You are right, the mode is easier than the higher levels of Gauntlet.

Although the enemies there also get "boss" special abilities. For example, Medusas get 100% death strike instead of their usual and bandits are super annoying because these version have First Strike meaning unless you get a level up heal off killing them, they will always annoy you with Poison/Mana Burn. Makes for a very weird set of strategies despite being easier overall.

Also, the Orc class has been changed. Their old EXP bonus conversion was given to Goblins and Orcs now have a "Base Damage increase" glyph conversion. I'm not sure how that works out mathematically (1 per level/conversion, scaling like dwarves?) but it seems to me that Humans are still better overall for increased damage? Might be worth looking into though.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #145 on: June 03, 2011, 12:58:24 PM »
It is fairly counter to my understanding of the balance of WC3 (which to be fair is very loose) and Diablo 2's balancing in later patches as well.  Could be looking at the wrong groups though.

The general sentiment is much less there being stray units that are odd counters to something that does bonus damage to them and much more just things that are supposed to be hard counters to things straight up not working (Which you have stated happens).

Yay respect for SC2 design down.
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #146 on: June 03, 2011, 04:57:09 PM »
You are right, the mode is easier than the higher levels of Gauntlet.

Although the enemies there also get "boss" special abilities. For example, Medusas get 100% death strike instead of their usual and bandits are super annoying because these version have First Strike meaning unless you get a level up heal off killing them, they will always annoy you with Poison/Mana Burn. Makes for a very weird set of strategies despite being easier overall.

Yeah, Bandits jumped to mind as probably the most obnoxious.  Normally the boss' first strike doesn't matter, but here it really does; means you can't safely attack them even when you're higher level.  Medusa...not so scary, though; Medusa's HP multiplier is extremely low for a boss; I'll still gleefully level slingshot off of Medusas using, say, CYDSTEPP.

Quote
Also, the Orc class has been changed. Their old EXP bonus conversion was given to Goblins and Orcs now have a "Base Damage increase" glyph conversion. I'm not sure how that works out mathematically (1 per level/conversion, scaling like dwarves?) but it seems to me that Humans are still better overall for increased damage? Might be worth looking into though.

If it's 1 per level/conversion then that's...really strong.  Way better than Human.  (Without any outside percentage bonuses, that's equivalent to +20% per conversion.  With outside percentage bonuses that's arguably more-like +30% per conversion).  So...I'm guessing that's not the formula.  And...just in general, I'm not expecting a scaling formula, because it's too similar to what human does.  Not sure what would be a good non-scaling formula; maybe +3 per conversion?  That's enough to make you stronger than human early, but weaker than human by level 10.  This is pure speculation, though--I haven't seen the formula.

I'm a bit sad about this change, though; Orc was an interesting race--let you level up at a timely moment to get a full heal.

It is fairly counter to my understanding of the balance of WC3 (which to be fair is very loose) and Diablo 2's balancing in later patches as well.  Could be looking at the wrong groups though.

The general sentiment is much less there being stray units that are odd counters to something that does bonus damage to them and much more just things that are supposed to be hard counters to things straight up not working (Which you have stated happens).

Yay respect for SC2 design down.

I actually much prefer games where they allow for a dynamic to develop, instead of artificially dictating "unit X counters unit Y".  I mean, look at Chess; you don't look at it and say "well, Knight counters Queen, so...". 

Or look at say, Magic the Gathering.  Now, lots of people like to think that the game is about counters, but it's kinda not; I remember when Ghostway was spoiled, a bunch of people were really exited about this excellent counter to Wrath of God.  Until someone from Wizards wrote in an article "Really people?  If all you want to do is counter Wrath, you could always use countermagic; it costs less mana, and can stop other cards too...".

It's games where developers take their hands off the steering wheel that you get an interesting metagame dynamic; where someone might discover some subtle interaction and the entire matchup changes.  Recent example:

http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65228

TigerKnee

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #147 on: June 03, 2011, 05:10:01 PM »
If it's 1 per level/conversion then that's...really strong.  Way better than Human.  (Without any outside percentage bonuses, that's equivalent to +20% per conversion.  With outside percentage bonuses that's arguably more-like +30% per conversion).  So...I'm guessing that's not the formula.  And...just in general, I'm not expecting a scaling formula, because it's too similar to what human does.  Not sure what would be a good non-scaling formula; maybe +3 per conversion?  That's enough to make you stronger than human early, but weaker than human by level 10.  This is pure speculation, though--I haven't seen the formula.

I'm a bit sad about this change, though; Orc was an interesting race--let you level up at a timely moment to get a full heal.

I'm dumb and didn't take picking up attack powerups in account. I think it's just a set 2 Base Damage per glyph, I believe. I don't know how that adds up but for me it works better for like... Thieves and Rogues, and not great on Monks. I don't know how it adds up on a "neutral" user.

Oh, by the way, I think I didn't convey it properly, but the old EXP glyph conversion is still there. Now:

Goblin: Convert Glyph to EXP
Orc: Convert Glyph to Base Damage.

The effect that was removed was the old Goblin's glyph -> gold conversion, which isn't useful for actually winning anyway and only useful for gold farming before starting your real run. But this does have the side effect that farming gold is now more obnoxious without the old goblin. I just hex-edit my save file to get maximum legit gold before each of my runs.

I guess this distribution makes more sense. Orcs were never a quick-learning race in fantasy tropes while Goblins are a "cunning" sort.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #148 on: June 03, 2011, 10:09:27 PM »
I'm dumb and didn't take picking up attack powerups in account. I think it's just a set 2 Base Damage per glyph, I believe. I don't know how that adds up but for me it works better for like... Thieves and Rogues, and not great on Monks. I don't know how it adds up on a "neutral" user.

Level 10 Human Vanilla vs Level 10 Orc Vanilla, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 50*1.7 = 85
Orc: 58*1.3 = 75

Level 5 Human Vanilla vs Level 5 Orc Vanilla, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 25*1.7 = 42
Orc: 33*1.3 = 42

Level 1 Human Vanilla vs Level 1 Orc Vanilla, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 5*1.7 = 8
Orc: 13*1.3 = 16

And in general, every time you level up, Humans gain 8.5 damage, and Orcs gain 6.5 damage

So...you need to gain an extra level overall with Orc's early damage to make them worthwhile (and even that won't necessarily make them deal more damage with physical attacks, but there are enough residual benefits from an extra level like more HP, better fireballs, more HP regen, etc, that it's probably worth-it).


Well, that's Vanilla; what about Rogue?

Level 10 Human Rogue vs Level 10 Orc Rogue, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 50*2.2 = 110
Orc: 58*1.8 = 104

Level 7 Human Rogue vs Level 7 Orc Rogue, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 35*2.2 = 77
Orc: 43*1.8 = 77

Level 1 Human Rogue vs Level 1 Orc Rogue, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 5*2.2 = 11
Orc: 13*1.8 = 23

Even with Rogue, unless you get an extra level out of your bonus low-level damage, Human will be better.  (Now, if you do get an extra level, then unquestionably Orc is better).



Hm...yeah, I'm really not impressed with a fixed +2 in general.  It's probably worth-it if the extra exp slingshotting gains you a whole extra level...probably.  But a whole extra level is by no means guaranteed.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #149 on: June 04, 2011, 01:18:47 AM »
Good things can certainly come from hands off design!  Let the gamers shape and form the meta game.  The biggest problem with competetive SC1 was always that insanely high barrier of entry though.  SC2 did something about it by making it a far easier game, but it is still there.  I prefer my info to be accessible and/or fairly self evident.  Without constantly updating the in game info (Something WoW does actually -try- to do from Blizzard) then you are just going to run into the same problems again.

It makes for truely impressive high level play to have things like that!  But it doesn't really help you develop an e-sports community unless you have a massive influx of people based on brand power and whatnot.  This isn't like Baseball or Football where people have grown up playing Starcraft or watching their parent's favourite Starcraft team on TV (although the former may be true in 2-5 or so years!  It is going to be pretty amazing come time for the final Starcraft 2 episode when we might have a crop of 16 year olds that have been surrounded by the game for their entire lives/nearly their entire lives).

That is mostly why I really like shooters as the e-sports game, they are fairly easy to understand the direct outcomes to even the more amazing pieces of technical prowess.  Also really lets me know what bothers me so much about this idea of turning MMO PVP into a pro gaming scene.  They are just nearly impenetrable without playing the game given class balance and whatnot.
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