The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Dhyerwolf on February 07, 2009, 06:13:37 AM
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)
Ryu (BoF4) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1)
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS)
Heavy:
Jack van Burace (WA1) vs Lin (BoF5)
Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG)
Saturos (GS) vs Zeno (BoF5)
Nel Zelpher (SO3) vs Angela (SD3)
Middle:
Ahihiko Sanada (P3) vs Marle [Nadia Guardia] (CT)
Titania (FE9) vs Paine (FFX-2)
Ena (FE9) vs Kornell (G3)
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF)
Light:
Noel Chandler (SO2) vs Rozalin (Dis2)
Hanako (Dis2) vs Anna Ziriski (PS2)
Cleo (S1) vs Yukari Takeba (Pers3)
Kid (CC) vs Peco (BoF3)
Bonus/Extra: What two games you're suggesting for ranking
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)- Rhap's speed disadvantage sinks him.
Ryu (BoF4) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1)- Ryu has to win this with Kaiser (Stardrop doens't have the offense to pressure at all, the turn reversion means he can't abuse the stat downs like he could against Cecilia). He can't really do this in time thanks to MP Concerns.
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS)- Way too fast for Heat. Constant pressure makes up for Lavos's suspect HP.
Heavy:
Jack van Burace (WA1) vs Lin (BoF5)- I think.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG)- Cristo knocks a third off physicals or so before Upper, making Id's double DB solid but not scary. One use of Upper makes Cristo immune to physicals, so Id has to win with ether attacks. I have plenty of respect for the physicals, but his ether damage is complete crap unless you're using the likes of Rico.
Saturos (GS) vs Zeno (BoF5)- Saturos needs ITE to win this.
Middle:
Can't vote again!
Light:
Noel Chandler (SO2) vs Rozalin (Dis2)- Buffs plus Noel's offense sucks. His healing is nonfull as well.
Hanako (Dis2) vs Anna Ziriski (PS2)- Hanako is awful.
Kid (CC) vs Peco (BoF3)- Way, way faster.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2)- Odd Eye might have an argument with double Odd Eye beam? Or did he run out of MP?
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)
Ryu (BoF4) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1)- Unsure here. Ryu has 6 turns in his status immune dragon, and less if Cecilia buffs her speed and he wants to Sanctuary. He needs to double before then. He probably takes it, but I need to math it out. Granted, if I'd see Sanctuary as magic, then after she buffs speed, he can't really win. Oh right, I also guess that if WA MP draining limits WA enemy MP attacking capabilities and Ryu is only immune to the gravity versions, Cecilia also has another plus that way.
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS)- Unsure. Lavos hates losing his first turn, but has pretty strong Lightning magic.
Heavy:
Jack van Burace (WA1) vs Lin (BoF5)- Jack. Faster, and Lin can't block ID and Paralysis.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG)- Double Deathblow and then double ether after Cristo buffs.
Saturos (GS) vs Zeno (BoF5)
Nel Zelpher (SO3) vs Angela (SD3)- Faster+Freeze cahin.
Middle:
Ahihiko Sanada (P3) vs Marle [Nadia Guardia] (CT)- Status
Titania (FE9) vs Paine (FFX-2)- No free shortrange counters gives Paine a pretty easy win here.
Ena (FE9) vs Kornell (G3)- Lots of AoE bombardment works here (As does WoW to get around some of her defense at least).
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF)- 2HKOs, faster, Eiko doesn't have scary turn 1 status.
Light:
Noel Chandler (SO2) vs Rozalin (Dis2)- Noel has so many shots of 50% healing. Rozalin game-worst damage can't kill deal with that.
Hanako (Dis2) vs Anna Ziriski (PS2)
Cleo (S1) vs Yukari Takeba (Pers3)
Kid (CC) vs Peco (BoF3) - Can even absorb Fire to make Kid sadder!
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Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG)- Cristo knocks a third off physicals or so before Upper, making Id's double DB solid but not scary. One use of Upper makes Cristo immune to physicals, so Id has to win with ether attacks. I have plenty of respect for the physicals, but his ether damage is complete crap unless you're using the likes of Rico.
Noel Chandler (SO2) vs Rozalin (Dis2)- Buffs plus Noel's offense sucks. His healing is nonfull as well.
Both Gourry and I got pretty similar numbers on the Ether damage. His was 5 less, but was the 3 highest Edef PCs (I included Bart, because he definetely has theoretical use). Given the sparceness of general XG level ups, can't imagine there would be a large difference. Also of note, if you hit Id with Bart's EAtk down, that could also explain lower damage.
Rozalin's buffing deserves like no hype? 10% stat buffs that start wearing off near immediately? Not helpful. 50% healing is good enough when your opponent only has limited 30% damage too. It means that he'll never really have to worry about being heal locked.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)
Ryu (BoF4) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1): Yeah, spamming sanctuary till a double turn then breathing on Cecilia twice works here.
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS): As soon as the center bit has a shot at the main body he's landing crying heavens, press turning, and killing with the second one. If I take Lavos as the center bit this happens on turn 1. If I take him as exactly as he is in game the center bit skips his first turn, but Heat has to put up the tentacles immediately... center bit goes 2300 AD, side bits soften up the tentacles, and before long the center bit doubleturns, kills the tentacles with dreamless, and does the crying heavens thing.
Heavy:
Jack van Burace (WA1) vs Lin (BoF5)
Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG): Double ether... meh. It would have to do like 30-45% PCHP? I think it's too weak.
Nel Zelpher (SO3) vs Angela (SD3)
Middle:
Titania (FE9) vs Paine (FFX-2)
Ena (FE9) vs Kornell (G3): All G3 techs are technically infinite range, so no counter hype. Ena's tougher and goes first, but... doubles and I believe inferior damage offset that.
Light:
Noel Chandler (SO2) vs Rozalin (Dis2): Noel's healing is ass slow as far as I'm concerned. Rozalin's 3-2ing in no time. and punching right through Noel by unloading all her SP at once.
Kid (CC) vs Peco (BoF3)
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Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG): Double ether... meh. It would have to do like 30-45% PCHP? I think it's too weak.
Both set of Id numbers have the ether attack doing around 20%.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2) - He nearly one-turns Odd-Eye. Odd Eye... doesn't 4HKO. That's that.
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC) - 2HKOs first.
Ryu (BoF4) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) - uh.
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS) - Weird. I think that I allow Lavos to call upon his Bits, which makes this a weird-ass match. The left bit is useless, but the center bit can dole out a lot of offense together with the core, so.
Heavy:
Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG) - I probably take Id against higher levels than the stat topic anyway. ID MAJEEKS hype doesn't ring true to me.
Nel Zelpher (SO3) vs Angela (SD3) - Snowyman.
Middle:
Ahihiko Sanada (P3) vs Marle [Nadia Guardia] (CT) - AHAHAHAHAHAHA P3 PC AGAINST WEAKNESS
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF) - 2HKOs, doesn't get statused turn one, goes first. Game.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Yukari Takeba (Pers3) - Cleo heal-locks with a physical and is far faster. Game.
Kid (CC) vs Peco (BoF3) - Eh.
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Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC) - I dunno. More kneejerk respect for Rhapthorne, as I still don't recall FA being all that tough. Probably helps a bit that I don't let FA spam her big damage laser, meaning I suspect she only 3HKOs here.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG) - Also getting on board the "Id was not THAT scary" anti-hype train.
Nel Zelpher (SO3) vs Angela (SD3) - SO3 initiative is a dark art but Nel "feels" fast.
Ena (FE9) vs Kornell (G3) - Ena can't move, Kornell has non-fail magic. I suspect Kornell still wins this even if you let the boss form move, and he certainly crushes PC Ena.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2) - Need to math this out again, gut says Ghaleon.
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)
Ryu (BoF4) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) - Likes the 3.0x average a whole lot. Doesn't change this battle too much, but.
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS) - Wins pretty much no matter how I look at this.
Heavy:
Jack van Burace (WA1) vs Lin (BoF5) - Can't block both statuses, IIRC?
Saturos (GS) vs Zeno (BoF5) - Whackwhackwhack.
Nel Zelpher (SO3) vs Angela (SD3) - Unsure.
Middle:
Ahihiko Sanada (P3) vs Marle [Nadia Guardia] (CT) - I mathed this out. Apparently Akihiko manages a 2HKO physically against Marle PDef! So in order to win he just needs to have the knockdown aspect of the battle system thrown out (if you're not taking the durabilities at vase value, Marle stomps anyway). This being said, for now I'm still factoring in knockdowns and she can just Haste after she does that. So yeah.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Yukari Takeba (Pers3) - uuuuuuuuhhhhhhh
Kid (CC) vs Peco (BoF3) - Sure.
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Does Magdalen have magic damage/physicals that are based off magic again? If not thinking Eiko can utilise Vanish here for this match.
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Vanish doesn't last long, does it?
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2): Two-rounds and survives until then.
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC): Goes first and OHKOs. (Doesn't have to.)
Ryu (BoF4) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1): Ooooh. This requires thought/analysis.
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS): Probably Heat? I'll turn this one over in my mind, though. Grah Lavos.
Heavy:
Jack van Burace (WA1) vs Lin (BoF5): There are a few times I wish that full status immunity hype for BoF5 had panned out.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG): I'm not even convinced Id 3-2's, here, though it's Id speed so who knows. Regardless, yeah, if it's close to someone like Super then I certainly see Cristo surviving.
Nel Zelpher (SO3) vs Angela (SD3): Don't allow statusblockers to be stacked, so Freeze/Stone.
Middle:
Titania (FE9) vs Paine (FFX-2): uh
Ena (FE9) vs Kornell (G3): Goes first, and they're similar enough otherwise.
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF): OHKOs, I think? Though again, probably doesn't have to.
Light:
Kid (CC) vs Peco (BoF3): Absorbs fire? Well then.
Light sucks. Gooo Cleo.
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Um, seriously.....how does Id lose against Cristo. We are talking about a near endgame boss who doubles, is immune to status and has pretty decent hp and really good speed. 2-4 rounds and Cristo is dead. 2-3 in reality because of the doubles. His ether damage ain't the greatest, but its enough to finish the job after the first physical cause he will get the first turn. Cristo can't even take him out in 3-4 turns. Even if you don't think Id is that scary, he is scary enough to destroy one PC. Sometimes the way these matches turn out is downright retarded
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Because if Id can't kill Cristo before the second turn he gets destroyed. He is not winning a fight with his ether damage alone and Cristo has well over a dozen shots of full healing to outlast Id with at that point. Sure, he doesn't kill in three-four turns, but he will well before he runs out of MP.
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He is going to run out of full healing eventually if he has to use it every other turn. His ether damage is not as good as his physical but its strong enough to 2kO him with the double turns. Ive seen him kill Billy in one turn with his physical and nearly kill Rico in one turn with his ether damage
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Does Magdalen have magic damage/physicals that are based off magic again? If not thinking Eiko can utilise Vanish here for this match.
Vanish is a Quina spell.
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Ahihiko Sanada (P3) vs Marle [Nadia Guardia] (CT): Unless I can justify elemental resisting accessories to cover weaknesses.
Also, thinking rank WA5?
What's playership on the FE6 language patch like, anywhere near SD3?
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I saw some people hyping Crying Heavens as hitting Heat's weakness. But IIRC, CH is not lightning element. It's one of the very rare non elemental magic attacks in CT, like Tailspin or Poyozo Dance. Yay, more Lavos headaches.
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Hm? I don't remember well from from the SFC version, but Crying Heaven is indeed sky element in the DS.
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It's definitely non-elemental in SNES. Same with the fire-looking Shadow Doom Blaze and the Darkness-looking Dreamless. Lavos doesn't go for elements (except FLAME BATTLE).
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Oh??
I know Dreamless is none elemental, and that Destruction Rain From the Heavens is actually physicals.
But I distinctly remember Shadow Doom Blaze's damage can be reduced by fire blockers. Guess that has to be Mdef making differences then...
*Goes to look up.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2) - Ghaleon. Yay Ghaleon back!
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC) - Rhapthorne. More durable, just as damaging. Speed really isn't making a difference here - Rhap is slower, but not slow, and no EXAs in TB systems help. BALLS OF DOOM works well enough.
Ryu (BoF4) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) - Cecilia.
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS) - Heat. SNES Lavos is non-elemental, pretty much. Crying Heavens should be noted as void-aligned in the stat topic. With that in mind...yeah.
Heavy:
Jack van Burace (WA1) vs Lin (BoF5) - Lin. Full status immunity is nice. Though...Jack's healing...might be enough? Depends on the ID stuff.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG) - Cristo. Defense boosts with healing. Id is not something I remember as good - helps I guess that I see XG levels very high.
Saturos (GS) vs Zeno (BoF5) - Saturos. Healing keeps him afloat, especially when Zeno has to move.
Nel Zelpher (SO3) vs Angela (SD3) - Angela. Status or no, Deathspell overkills.
Middle:
Ahihiko Sanada (P3) vs Marle [Nadia Guardia] (CT) - MARLE IS TECHNICALLY WATER MAGIC, NOT ICE. >_>
Titania (FE9) vs Paine (FFX-2) - Paine. Full Throttle is awesome.
Ena (FE9) vs Kornell (G3) - KORNELL BUSTAH!!!!!
Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Magdalen Harts (ACF) - Eiko. Yay healing.
Light:
Noel Chandler (SO2) vs Rozalin (Dis2) - Noel. Healing is fun...helps I allow a Million staff as well.
Hanako (Dis2) vs Anna Ziriski (PS2) - Hanako. Anna is ugly, hence a monster. Hanako therefore tanks her PATHETIC damage. Not even Fanbi will save her.
Cleo (S1) vs Yukari Takeba (Pers3) - Yukari. Healing fun.
Kid (CC) vs Peco (BoF3) - Peco.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs Odd Eye (SF2) - I have no idea~
Lavos (CT) vs Heat (DDS) - I got to CTDS, so Heat kinda dies
Middle:
Ahihiko Sanada (P3) vs Marle [Nadia Guardia] (CT)
Light:
Hanako (Dis2) vs Anna Ziriski (PS2) - Phantasy Star 2 always wins
Cleo (S1) vs Yukari Takeba (Pers3) - Suikoden 1 always wins
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Cristo (DQ4) vs Id (XG): Double ether... meh. It would have to do like 30-45% PCHP? I think it's too weak.
Stat topic puts them (2) at a little over 40% PCHP.
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Because if Id can't kill Cristo before the second turn he gets destroyed. He is not winning a fight with his ether damage alone and Cristo has well over a dozen shots of full healing to outlast Id with at that point. Sure, he doesn't kill in three-four turns, but he will well before he runs out of MP.
When does Cristo ever get to attack, let alone use Upper?
Id goes first, Cristo heals or dies at the start of the very next turn. Id goes again, Cristo heals, Id attacks, Cristo heals and so on.
Cristo has below PC average HP, 6-7HKO (game worst) damage and only limited heals. Id does 1.08HKO damage to average PCHP with double Hagans and there is no way Cristo's defense is going to knock that down anywhere close to 3HKO. Especially with his HP.
Unless i'm missing something big here, there's just no way Cristo wins.
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Id doesn't do anywhere near 1.08HKO to most of us, I think. Regardless, Upper's pretty much nulling his damage (500 Def? Yeaah), so he casts that, survives the followup ether, and wins. The fight completely hinges on how much respect you have for Id's damage. Obviously you have a lot, but not everyone else does.
Once Upper's in place, Cristo can cruise. Doesn't matter that he's 6-7HKOing, he's not running out of healing before then.
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Id doesn't do anywhere near 1.08HKO to most of us, I think. Regardless, Upper's pretty much nulling his damage (500 Def? Yeaah), so he casts that, survives the followup ether, and wins. The fight completely hinges on how much respect you have for Id's damage. Obviously you have a lot, but not everyone else does.
Once Upper's in place, Cristo can cruise. Doesn't matter that he's 6-7HKOing, he's not running out of healing before then.
How can you see it as anything other then what it is!?
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Different levels/equips for Id, just like every other boss ever.
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Different levels/equips for Id, just like every other boss ever.
Lv99 PC and game best equips?
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No, just like two or three levels higher and possibly more defense-oriented setups, XG gives you that leeway. Considering how fast you gain levels in Xenogears, and considering how potent the defense stat is in-game, a notable difference wouldn't be farfetched with a different mindset and higher levels. Taking Id at L99, as such, would make him akin to Jogurt with speed, instead of the Heavy who has some semblance of an argument to beat Cristo.
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Id's margin of victory over Cristo is like less than 5% taken by Dhyer's numbers. This is an extremely close fight.
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Id's margin of victory over Cristo is like less than 5% taken by Dhyer's numbers. This is an extremely close fight.
It's actually basically nearly 20% exactly.
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You'd be wrong, because Id's losing a third of his damage with each DB. He does not like high defense.
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Are you including Cristo's 85% HP (because including the 1/3 reduction, Id is killing average HP by less than 5%)?
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Yeah.
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Eiko can cast Vanish with Carbunkle + Diamond. I don't know how long it would last Super but how long does it *have* to last? Depending on who goes first I guess if Eiko can get in a couple of Holy nukes with impunity ... how many hits does it take to KO Magdalen?
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Mags is above average durability, and risks OHKOing before Gambit as is. Since Vanish lasts like two turns at best and Eiko 3HKOs average, and Magdalen gets Gambit FP by his second turn, um yeah.
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CT's a bit old, thus took me a while.
Lavos seems to only have 3 elemental attacks. Battle Flame and Flame Void being fire, and Crying Heavens being sky.
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Id's margin of victory over Cristo is like less than 5% taken by Dhyer's numbers. This is an extremely close fight.
It's actually basically nearly 20% exactly.
And math to show it!
Id gets in his double deathblow (cut by a third and two spells) or 2/3 (160x2) + 70 + 70 =353.
Cristo has 85% average HP, or 0.85 x 345 = 293 HP is Xenogears terms. So Id does have a nice error of killing.
Also of note, 70 damage from Ether is basically what someone with 33-34 Edef at this point takes. This is about Billy's natural Ether Defense around L45.
Even if you take 100 Defense as average (10 points higher than Gourry or I did, which is feasible) and takes Gourry's slightly lower Edef number and my higher HP, Id still has the numerical win.
Rhapthorne (DQ8) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC) - I dunno. More kneejerk respect for Rhapthorne, as I still don't recall FA being all that tough. Probably helps a bit that I don't let FA spam her big damage laser, meaning I suspect she only 3HKOs here.
Snowfire, while not letting a boss spam a big move all the time, does this really hurt FA more than Rhapthorne? FA still has like 80% physical damage and it also means that Rhapthorne also shouldn't be allowed to spam his best all the time.