Author Topic: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3  (Read 5115 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2011, 08:26:08 AM »
They definitely can.

(EDIT: Specific example since I saw it recently, last boss before final save point loves to move to the front row and during testing I many times saw her do so diagonally.)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:28:01 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Talaysen

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2011, 06:26:22 PM »
Godlike

Avalon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) v Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs)
Kite (.hack Series) v Xorn (Grandia III)
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV)

Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV)
Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV)
Nate Nanjo (Person Series) v Cloud of Darkness (Final Fantasy III)

Heavy

Rose (Legend of Dragoon) v Shadow Maya (Persona 2: Innocent Sin)
Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles) v Cristo (Dragon Quest IV)
Ziggy (Xenosaga Series) v Brigette 'Rosie' Starks (Valkyria Chronicles)
Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Zera (Grandia II) v Elliot (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Starmie (Pokémon)
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia)

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)
Peter (Shining Force II) v Aht (Radiant Historia)
Domingo (Shining Force)  v Ayne (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) v Akira (Live a Live)

Vyers (Disgaea: Hour of Darkness) v Argilla (Digital Devil Saga)
Aigis (Persona 3) v Mathias (Suikoden V)
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII)
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears)
Piccolo (Suikoden III) v Milon (Final Fantasy IV)
Pikachu (Pokémon) v Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)
Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3)
Tricia (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) v Mukumuku (Suikoden II)
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) v Yam Koo (Suikoden)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 06:26:10 AM by Talaysen »

SnowFire

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2011, 07:53:28 AM »
I'd factor trap damage into a 3-turn average, yes.  I'm not sure it changes that much since offensive buffs aren't worth using over 3 turns and Aht falls back to Cross Star on turn 3, though Gafka does get Wind God Strike -> stuff that hits the center square at least.  The effect on damage averages is pretty subtle, I suspect, probably less than me letting Rosch use Der Lowe which amps his damage some.

Since Marco gets his Super Heal insanely late - he didn't have it when I fought the final boss - I'm totally willing to hype Aht as the best healer for the last third of the game as far as in-game use.  Super Heal is pretty darn helpful (why is money sparse for a Time Traveler who can rob timelines that never happen?), and she's got solid MT healing as well.

I probably don't allow Dreamless myself either, though not 100% sure.  RH has an aftergame boss but not really an aftergame.  I know I never used it, despite leveling up enough to use it when grinding for the aftergame boss.  (I certainly do allow SO3 aftergame skills, on the other hand, since that's a game with a pretty long aftergame you get to use them in.)  Speaking of which, you mentioned most of the scary bosses in RH not being Aht-friendly.  There's some truth to this, but another exception is the Aftergame boss, if you haven't tried him yet.  Aht's got MT healing, some buffing, and Traps are among the fastest ways to whittle his second form down to a manageable fight.

I recall enemies occasionally charging forward in RH (and yes, you're right that they'll do it over diagonals), but yeah, I don't really recall them ever heading to the back row.  I believe you that they do, though I suspect they do that less.  Moreover, and already went over this, but I found that enemy movement made Aht notably *better* in-game when it came up, so not overly inclined to hold it against her.  One alternate interp - not that I advocate this - is to let people fighting Radiant Historia characters move, and even move to the back row, but not let them know where Aht placed the traps.  Which makes this kind of a bad gamble as they have a 1/2 chance of blowing up unless they went first (1/2 not 2/3 since the middle-back square is guaranteed to be trapped and obviously a bad bet).  These are traps, after all, and games like FE9's bridge mission don't highlight the traps for you!  (Unless you're BoF Karn or the like?)  I presume that RH enemies can't detect them, since they walk into them in-game!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 07:56:20 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2011, 04:39:14 AM »
Quote
Since Marco gets his Super Heal insanely late - he didn't have it when I fought the final boss - I'm totally willing to hype Aht as the best healer for the last third of the game as far as in-game use.  Super Heal is pretty darn helpful (why is money sparse for a Time Traveler who can rob timelines that never happen?), and she's got solid MT healing as well.

Weird, I didn't even do many of the optional quests (which presumably nets you things worth money in some cases) and I had enough money to swim in Tourniquets (fair number of Healing Fruits too, though those were certainly a bit more prized). And while I never got Super Heal for Marco either (I was one level away, it's apparently at 52!), it's not like Aht has it for very much longer (Level 45, and she should be a level or two lower than Marco assuming equal use). Really not seeing the hype there! Everyone heals pretty equally well as a result... well, no, I think Regeneration is a fairly potent healing effect and will hype that a little, so go Raynie/Eruca.

Quote
One alternate interp - not that I advocate this - is to let people fighting Radiant Historia characters move, and even move to the back row, but not let them know where Aht placed the traps.

That's actually a... very good argument, yeah. (much better than giving her push moves she doesn't have or banning enemy movement entirely!) I had never seen enemies walk into a trap, like I said, but I certainly believe that they would, and just because -you- can see the trap doesn't mean the enemy can. The problem is how to resolve the 50/50 chances of victory that this creates (since very often that choice will mean win or loss). I'd probably tiebreak against the trap in the pure 50/50 chance (call this a consideration for the in-game situations which spoil 'em... such as an enemy initially in the back obviously) but it does mean that Aht will often end up spoiling duellers who rely on non-100% skills (since it will often mean "Aht wins 100% if trap works, Aht wins 10% if traps fails = overall victory!). And you know what? I am totally fine with this; it's arguably something the DL needs more of (no more repeated 80% status rates to victory!).

Huh I actually like her in the DL now. Weird. Eerie. How did you manage that?

(I'm also kinda intrigued by the idea of "only allow aftergame/overlevelled skills if there's stuff that justifies them" which... would preserve Pokemon/SO/VP2 (which I definitely like... half the ranked VP2 cast exists mainly in the aftergame anyway!) but ban Yamikei/Ultima (though the latter has an asterisk to me, don't want to debate it right now however). Not saying I support this but it is interesting and something for me to mull over.)

Quote
There's some truth to this, but another exception is the Aftergame boss, if you haven't tried him yet.  Aht's got MT healing, some buffing, and Traps are among the fastest ways to whittle his second form down to a manageable fight.

Idly, while I could imagine the traps being good there (possibly even excellent), I will up the anti-hype for the healing given there's no way the aftergame boss isn't facing a full stock of Tourniquets and Healing Fruits... even though we apparently had differing item budgets you should certainly have enough for that!

I never got much use out of Aht's buffs either. MDef is the dump stat in this game (multihit magic uh.. basically doesn't exist, unless this superboss uses it), and -20% status rates doesn't really seem worth it (final would be the best place for it but the final is not a good place for Aht). Your milage may vary, but I definitely found the buffs to Def, Mag, and to a lesser extent Atk, more useful.

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Talaysen

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2011, 07:25:21 AM »
I had never seen enemies walk into a trap, like I said, but I certainly believe that they would, and just because -you- can see the trap doesn't mean the enemy can.

I have seen enemies walk into traps as well.  Even if it means their own death.  It's actually kind of funny.

The problem is how to resolve the 50/50 chances of victory that this creates (since very often that choice will mean win or loss). I'd probably tiebreak against the trap in the pure 50/50 chance (call this a consideration for the in-game situations which spoil 'em... such as an enemy initially in the back obviously) but it does mean that Aht will often end up spoiling duellers who rely on non-100% skills (since it will often mean "Aht wins 100% if trap works, Aht wins 10% if traps fails = overall victory!). And you know what? I am totally fine with this; it's arguably something the DL needs more of (no more repeated 80% status rates to victory!

And situations like this is why I actually consider things like 1/3 chance initiative and sub 50% crit rates on OPB skills.  Sure it's not going to trigger on average but if you can back it up with like a 40% win rate even if those don't kick in and get a 100% win rate if they do, then that's an overall win.  Kind of saddens me that people will so often ignore them, even in such cases!

SnowFire

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2011, 03:09:51 AM »
Fair enough.  Regen is pretty good.

I'll just add that if you're curious where my money went, any spare cash usually went into Bishop Studs in the middle game, then Rook Studs and Queen Studs which basically filled out any extra accessory slots.  And I don't like micro-managing accessories too much (though I did it occasionally) so that means not just getting ~6 and re-arranging them whenever I party-swapped.  ~12 Queen Studs are pretty expensive, so I wasn't a fan of tossing Torniquets when not needed.

Yoshiken

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2011, 12:20:48 PM »
I don't like micro-managing
I lol'd. :')

Clear Tranquil

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2011, 11:40:25 PM »
Godlike

Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs)

Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV)

Heavy

Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Starmie (Pokémon)
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)

Middle

Aigis (Persona 3) v Mathias (Suikoden V)
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII)

Light

Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)

Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3)- Kitty~

**

Quote
If he has some reliable way of setting up Land Mines -> knock enemies into them, I'd be willing to hype him in the DL.

I think Roger does yeah. I might look into some set ups for him there if get back to SO3 sometime. Maybe!~


« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 11:58:20 PM by Clear Tranquil »
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Meeplelard

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2011, 05:58:04 AM »
For once, just deleting fights I cant' vote on.

Godlike

Avalon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) v Mewtwo (Pokémon): Yep.
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs): Fast physical hard hitting boss vs. not fast physically frail PC...that'll go over well.
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV): Eliminate, Millenia dies.

Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV): Warrior form is just hell for Profound Darkness; Aura doesn't' just hit hard as hell, it also hits weakness, and it constantly EX Turns her as well.
Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King): Survives Jessica's attack, then Indiscriminates.
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV): Valvalis vs. a boss who can work around Spin.
Nate Nanjo (Person Series) v Cloud of Darkness (Final Fantasy III): EDIT: Forgot her physicals don't actually suck and she has haste.

Heavy

Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword): Tanks, Counters, outslugs.

Zera (Grandia II) v Elliot (Legaia 2: Duel Saga): Kneejerk.
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Starmie (Pokémon): Out Resources offhand.
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII): Tentacle is strong enough to avoid a Limit, so Ultros pokes a few times with his basic physical, then finishes with Tentacle.  Yuffie's got below average HP on top of this so yeah.
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia): Instant Death weapon.

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon): Melbu can take a hit, which I think lets him beat Mary.
Domingo (Shining Force)  v Ayne (Legaia 2: Duel Saga): Kneejerk.
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) v Akira (Live a Live): Same!

Vyers (Disgaea: Hour of Darkness) v Argilla (Digital Devil Saga): Yes or something.
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII): Pretty sure Karin can outslug Seifer.
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series): Not much Mother respect or something.

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears): I think?
Piccolo (Suikoden III) v Milon (Final Fantasy IV): no, seriously, what the fuck Piccolo?
Pikachu (Pokémon) v Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters): Speed Game gets past the healing.
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant): Doesn't take much to beat Lucia.

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen): Is fast enough and eventually goes Dragoon form and nukes past the healing.
Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3): Rahal.
Tricia (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) v Mukumuku (Suikoden II): No, I didn't think about this one much.
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) v Yam Koo (Suikoden): I think Frank is good enough to beat a generic Suiko Scrub at least.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 07:38:31 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Twilkitri

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2011, 04:06:28 AM »
Godlike

Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass

Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV)
Pass
Pass
Pass

Heavy

Pass
Pass
Pass
Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Pass
Pass
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia)

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)
Pass
Pass
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) v Akira (Live a Live)

Pass
Pass
Pass
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears)
Pass
Pass
Pass

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)
Pass
Pass
Pass

Cmdr_King

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Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2011, 04:09:38 PM »
Godlike

Avalon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)- v v Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)- vii v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs)- i
Kite (.hack Series) v Xorn (Grandia III)- i
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV)- vi

Ryu (Breath of Fire III)- vi v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV)- i
Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile)- v v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)- iii
Melfice (Grandia II)- viii v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV)
Nate Nanjo (Person Series)- ii v Cloud of Darkness (Final Fantasy III)- ii
[11:05] <CmdrKing> Hatbot: TO BE #1 or NAKED VOID?
[11:06] <Hatbot> I'll pick TO BE #1, CmdrKing.

Heavy

Rose (Legend of Dragoon) v Shadow Maya (Persona 2: Innocent Sin)- ii
Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles) v Cristo (Dragon Quest IV)- ii
Ziggy (Xenosaga Series) v Brigette 'Rosie' Starks (Valkyria Chronicles)- ii
Chie Satonaka (Persona 4)- iii v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- iii
[11:07] <CmdrKing> Hatbot: BRUCE LEE FANGIRL or EPIC BEARD?
[11:07] <Hatbot> Go for BRUCE LEE FANGIRL, CmdrKing.

Zera (Grandia II)- i v Elliot (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)- ii
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)- vii v Starmie (Pokémon)
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI)- v v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)- vi
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia)- iii v Justin (Grandia)- iiii

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)- v
Peter (Shining Force II)- i v Aht (Radiant Historia)- iii
Domingo (Shining Force)- iiii  v Ayne (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)- i
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals)- ii v Akira (Live a Live)- i

Vyers (Disgaea: Hour of Darkness)- ii v Argilla (Digital Devil Saga)- iii
Aigis (Persona 3)- i v Mathias (Suikoden V)- iii
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)- i v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII)- vii
Mother (Wild ARMs)- vi v Tengaar (Suikoden Series)- ii

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon)- viii v Kelvena (Xenogears)
Piccolo (Suikoden III)- iiii v Milon (Final Fantasy IV)- iii
Pikachu (Pokémon)- iii v Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)- ii
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)- viii v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)

Meru (Legend of Dragoon)- iii v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)- iiii
Rahal (Suikoden V)- iii v Shady (Wild ARMs 3)- iii
[11:09] <CmdrKing> Hatbot: DISTURBINGLY ATTRACTIVE or KILL YOU LIKE A CAT IN A BOX?
[11:09] <Hatbot> I'll pick KILL YOU LIKE A CAT IN A BOX, CmdrKing.
Tricia (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)- iiii v Mukumuku (Suikoden II)
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)- vii v Yam Koo (Suikoden)
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.