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Author Topic: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings  (Read 5039 times)

Luther Lansfeld

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FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« on: February 22, 2010, 06:18:12 AM »
So basically Elfboy and myself decided to construct a beautiful~ list ranking the FE10 characters by usefulness . Some of your favorite characters may not be high (;_; Tal) but we've tried to be as objective as possible! So feel free to argue or discuss or ask about the logic or whatever. ^.^

And yes, the characters are ordered within their tier.

Oh, the herons were excluded. Just going to say Reyson > Leanne > Rafiel and leave it at that.

Gamebreakers

Volug
Ike
Haar
Titania
Naliah
Tibarn
Elincia
Caineghis

Awesome

Jill
Nolan
Janaff
Sothe
Ulki
Gatrie
Naesala
Nephenee
Mia
Giffca

Competent

Shinon
Rolf
Marcia
Micaiah
Zihark
Aran
Oscar
Ranulf
Calill
Volke
Stefan

Serviceable

Kieran
Nasir
Ena
Mist
Meg
Brom
Heather
Bastian
Soren
Pelleas
Laura
Danved
Tauroneo
Lethe
Kurthnaga
Tormod

MEDIOCRITIES!

Geoffrey
Tanith
Leonardo
Rhys
Sigrun
Muarim
Mordecai
Skirmir
Makalov
Renning
Lucia
Vika

Unhelpful

Edward
Sanaki
Boyd
Nealuchi
Kyza
Ilyana
Oliver
 
Failures

Gareth
Fiona
Astrid
Lyre
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 06:43:57 AM by Ciato »
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 06:27:21 AM »
So a couple of important notes:

Endgame usefulness versus other map usefulness was taken into account. This is why Cain is not at the top. (e.g. the fact that Tibarn and Nailah have 2-4 more maps than him in which to kick ass helps their score.)

In general, you'll notice there are a few Dawn Brigade PCs that are really high. I feel like the DB maps are some of the hardest in the game and you really need these PCs to hold them together. Sothe, for example, isn't a great Endgame unit but still manages to get in a pretty high position because he is really strong in many Part 1 and 3 maps. On the other hand, Rolf and Shinon are (substantially!) better than Sothe in lategame maps that all are available, but never especially pivotal to the success of the Greil Mercenaries.

Heather/healers/dragons are rated not only on combat ability because they play other pivotal, non-combat roles.
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Tide

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 07:57:13 AM »
Whee, okay, since I was told by Ciato to post in topic, I shall do so. These are just my opinions, general feelings and what not. As a note, I've played mostly on Easy mode, although I was told by Eph that enemy stats do not vary as much. Understand that PC levels do though! So yeah, no hyping super Edward from me.

Thoughts...
Elincia feels a little high. High/Awesome tier is my general gut feeling on her. The levels when she starts off, she's pretty good. Although 2-P is crushed handidly by Haar. And heck even Marcia I think is better in that chapter since she's locked to a Slim sword or something. Granted, being the only healer on that map is worth a few points - just doesn't feel like a serious level where she's doing all that much (never mind her EXP gains). 2-E is where she really shines and does awesome things like kill enemies, cantoing away or healing someone like Haar who may be occupying a choke unless you attempt to blitz the level. So combined together, she's probably good, although not gamebreaking. Of course, this isn't why I think she's lower (it's only 2 chapters!) - it's because of the rejoining point in 4-2 that I think she's probably more awesome level than gamebreaking level. She takes a few levels in 4-2 to get going since her level lead by now is more diminished, and those growths haven't caught up yet. It doesn't take long in fairness, although I think that's enough to discern away from being on top of Cain. I'll ignore the crossbow enemies on that field (there a few), but she possibly likes them less than Tibarn. Come 4-4 (or is it 4-5?), she's back up doing pretty well. Attack, cantoing away from the tigers and not getting hindered by the swamp is a huge bonus. Not to mention being able to heal. In endgame...I still think she's quite good, but not as good as Cain. I don't remember how many Wind/Archers there are in 4E-1 but in 4E2, it's giant pain in the rear unless you give her Nullify. Might be balanced off by the fact that she could just stick to healing, and then, there's Fortify. But then again, Cain has that Earth support...

Jill also feels a bit lower to me. The starting stats give her a little bit of a rocky edge. Although I'm not arguing as heavily on this one. Horseslayer in 4P should fix levelling problems up fairly quick and she's definitely one of the better DB units despite that. Flying also helps.

Calill feels closer to Soren overall. She slaughters him endgame (35 Speed + chance of reaching it > Soren not meeting his low speed cap until late, along with more might on Fire and). I'm just not sure if their performance is between is enough to create such a huge gap. She's certainly doing things in Maurauders (3-9?) and 2-E, but then again, she's not taking a deployment slot there. 3-9 she's also competing with Geoffrey at a point in time when he is still kinda loling at things, which doesn't help her performance all that much. She's likely picking off some stragglers though. They feel closer in practice (either he goes up or she goes down), since he's basically doing more early on where as she's doing more late. Her biggest problem is really picking back up when the Crimean army joins with the alliance, since if both are being used then, he likely has a level lead on her and she would need something like Paragon to catch up. And unfortunately, the first level when she does join isn't friendly to her for catching up in levels due to lolbridgeholes. A big advantage she does have though is choosing where she wants to participate in part 4. Distortions and Unforgivable Sin are both decent chapters for her (one is loldesert and the other is lolweakness hitting while sending walls to block off certain points). So yeah, she slaughters him end game, which is reinforced there. Hmm...maybe the gap isn't as small as I thought, but certainly, probably a bit smaller (roughly half the size?)

Lucia and Renning also feel higher to me than they should be. Renning is basically a filler unit who is bad to bring into end game due to Pallies speed cap. And he's not providing any benefit before hand, so uh... He's competing with endgame slots against the likes of Tibarn, Caineghis, Nailah and other good beorc units like Mia, Shinon, Nolan. Definitely see him more in Unhelpful. Probably below Sanaki. Lucia just basically gets hit with a stick since she's re-joining at a time when her level lead is basically gone, with no supports built up and is likely never able to take on a fresh enemy unless a healer is being nearby. She's basically taking potshots unless of course, you slap her Paragon >_>. But even then, her growths aren't that good for strength and defense, and the chances of her getting bonused up to get those stats are probably even lower. By the time 4-5 enters around, the Tigers basically maul her to death in two hits. The dragons are just a nightmare sans having a Wyrmslayer ready for her and she otherwise still needs an expensive forge in order to contribute other than taking potshots. I guess she gets credit for 2-2 but she's pretty much Edward level to me.

Speaking of Edward, him and Boyd also feel lower to me than not. Boyd feels more mediocre than actually bad. His speed starts off low, but he's fine once he gets those few levels. He's got a few bonds around to help him out early on for offense, whatever that is worth. He's at least doing things in 3-4 and 3-5 (hogging ledgers in 3-5 and 3-4 he's capable of climbing upwards like other infantry). And while his durability isn't amazing, he's capable of at least taking a hit or two. Edward is at least helpful for a few starting chapters (more than can be said for Renning to me!) in 1-P, 1-1, 1-2 etc. His durability is still garbage, which obviously hurts him a lot. The +2 defense on his support is still a joke, but he at least has it compared to say Renning. Then competing with Zihark also hurts more, but yeah, he's at least doing something beneficial in the early chapters where Leonardo hasn't gotten his awesome bow of wtf an Nolan is still growing as well. Edward also actually good growths if you manage to actually train him - which to me basically beats Lucia if the two of them are ever both being used at the same time. He basically actually ends up doing something in part 3 then! Enough to a point where maybe that +2 defense is so much of a joke anymore! Although 3-13 is special since he could merely exist and he would be doing something by occupying the middle, but yeah. Both feel Mediocre instead of just outright bad.

Gareth also quite possibly into Unhelpful instead of being part of the trinity (parallelgon?) of evil because Blood Tide is pretty damn good. And while he has the Res equivalent to that of a gnat, it's at least salvagable without an overwhelming amount of effort (Provoke on someone else/Shade on him. Barrier staves/Wardwood, etc. Although Wardwood is also a minus since it takes away from his ability to be placed in certain squares to provide bonuses). This is more than can be said regarding the trinity of evil
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 08:00:24 AM by Tide »
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Yoshiken

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 11:27:27 AM »
Personally, I'd definitely not see Volug as anywhere near the top. Outside of Part 1, Volug strikes me as pretty much useless, since he dies way too easily and is relatively weak/slow. Nolan, on the other hand, is easily top tier, solely for DB use.
Also can't see Titania finishing that high. I've always used her in both games, and she's definitely not bad! Just, uhh, not quite top tier. I'd probably see Soren as higher, but that might be personal bias. Would also see Skrimir as higher - slow as hell, bad resistance, but tears shit apart with ease. Would also have Meg in lowest tier myself. ;o
Oh, and I've never understood the Elincia hype, but I know I'm on my own there, so I'll ignore that one.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 04:24:15 PM »
Yoshi: Part 3 is actually where I consider Volug at his best. Once you gain the ability to not rely on Halfshifting, you can basically increase all his non Luck/HP stats by 1/4th. You have to wait a couple of turns (one once you have access to Laguz Stones) but that's the case with all Laguz. He completely destroyed Part 3 if you do this, and you should. Basically Volug is useful in all parts of the game, never becomes bad, and serves an important role in a struggling party. That's why I believe he is the best PC overall. He gets to SS in strike pretty quickly because he can take a lot of beatings, he's still a pretty damn good PC Endgame (I mean, sure, worse than Laguz Royals, but the Laguz Royals are gross.) He can also use a Laguz Gem in the final dungeon to be PERMANENTLY TRANSFORMED, which is what I did~

Meg is pretty easy to use and does fill a nice tanking role in the DB. She's always struck me as a better-at-Edward's-job-than-Edward character. She's not awesome but she is passable filler in the DB. She doubles a lot once she gets going, is good at being a wall when she needs to be, and is super-duper-awesome at Endgame with not a huge amount of effort on my part (yessss, come to capped Res Meg on Wardwood with Alondite, White Dwaggies~). If I were rating Meg based on my first playthrough she would be about two tiers higher, but I am attempting to be objective.

Tide: 'Wasting a deployment slot' is something that's really important though, right? Calill may not be that much better than Soren statistically for most of the game, but she is better at Endgame and fills an important role in a couple of maps where an extra boost of firepower is needed. Soren never fills such a role and is a worse PC at Endgame. I will assert that there is only one map that I'd ever say "Wow, I'd love to deploy Soren!". And you know what? That is 4-5(the laguz swamp), a map that Soren cannot be deployed on due to being stuck in Ike's path. I am considering where each person is available (so Volug gets bonus points for being DB, whereas Soren does himself no favors by hanging out with the obviously awesome.)

I actually really like Soren, I used him my last playthrough and babied him thoroughly to try to make him an adequate PC. He's just.... not worth it. There is only so much you can do with him to even make him decent, and at Endgame, which is what you should be raising this character for, he's just not that good. And I had a stat-blessed one. And I cried because I'd love to put him higher, but I can't really justify this at all.

Titania is a person I can actually see lowering. I think she's really a fantastic PC most of the game, Canto and hits really hard. I did notice she does fall off in maps like 4-3(the fight against Oliver) and onward, and she felt like one of the LVPs of Endgame when I brought her there. If you could point out a few specific examples of where Titania isn't useful I'd appreciat it.

I built Edward. I am still frightened to put him anywhere near more than one enemy. The combination of constant critting potential + I DIE WHEN BABIES LOOK AT ME in Part 3 just made him unusable. You are building Edward and putting effort into Edward when you could, ya know, just use Zihark. Or you build Edward, get to Part 4, and realize that all this incredible babying (and I was babying him into Part 3) gets you a PC that still needs leveling and isn't better than Mia and Stefan even when you level him. He is an incredible pain in the ass to use for basically no positive return. A project character needs to really shine at Endgame to not be a waste. Even Fiona achieves this; she is better than basically all the Silver/Gold Knights at Endgame, and this is cool! Does it make her worth it? Not really.

Boyd is just... worse than every PC in his party by quite a ways. The tier above him is filled with people who fill situational roles (Lucia is good in 2-2(Lucia lord!), Renning is good at killing both dragons and generals because he doubles Generals with Hammer, Skirmir is good in 4-Prologue, etc), but Boyd just doesn't get deployed and doesn't do much unless you willingly decide "I want to use Boyd!". Which is fine but in FE10, just because a character can be used doesn't mean they really have any place where they are better than others at any point of the game. I feel like this tier is filled with people who there is basically no reason to use them at any point in the game, and Boyd is like this. Could you remind me of these specific examples with Boyd, since I seem to be not recalling the right maps?

Gareth only faces enemies who hit RES. If he actually fought enemies that used Defense, I would respect him far more! He just gets doubled and dies to the final boss so he has one map of worse-than-Ena-at-the-same-job. >_> I guess you could use both for MAXIMUM POWER!

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 04:51:49 PM »
I'll let Elfboy tackle Jill since I had two very different opinions of her based on my two playthroughs. Elfboy's is better for the exact numbers and stuff. =)
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Tide

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 08:30:35 PM »
@ Yoshi: Volug being gamebest doesn't surprise me. I would personally argue its Haar, but Volug is still easily top tier material. Don't use Halfshift ever once you get the choice not to use it. It really hurts him. Otherwise, at 3-6, he is still doubling the crap out of everything. And the only other character on the DB side who can say this is Zihark. And Zihark is nowhere near as close to Volug in terms of Durability (both raw Defense and HP are lower). Olivi Grass would be an argument but he's pretty much the only person on the DB side who uses it, and you get several packs of it. So he can easily hog it all to himself and destroy worlds. He's better than Nolan for a few reasons, although the primarily one that I am thinking of certainly is the fact that base level Volug is still quite good at 3-6, and thus he requires a lot less resources to be adequately good. Can't say the same thing about Nolan. Nolan also doesn't double everything ever to boot, and he's less durable for quite some time so the difference is quite understandable.

@ Ciato

Quote
'Wasting a deployment slot' is something that's really important though, right? Calill may not be that much better than Soren statistically for most of the game, but she is better at Endgame and fills an important role in a couple of maps where an extra boost of firepower is needed. Soren never fills such a role and is a worse PC at Endgame. I will assert that there is only one map that I'd ever say "Wow, I'd love to deploy Soren!".

I actually really like Soren, I used him my last playthrough and babied him thoroughly to try to make him an adequate PC. He's just.... not worth it. There is only so much you can do with him to even make him decent, and at Endgame, which is what you should be raising this character for, he's just not that good. And I had a stat-blessed one. And I cried because I'd love to put him higher, but I can't really justify this at all.
 


I guess part of this depends on how much value we are placing for the endgame levels. I mean, endgame, you have the royals who pretty much kick the ass of most other units + Giffca. While Calill is better than Soren endgame, I'm not sure myself how much that it's worth (and hence not seeing a whole tier worth of difference). Likewise, I never ran into situations where I would love to deploy Calill sans 4-3 and 4-5 but I already covered those. She basically has the problem where when she rejoins, she's probably a under levelled compared to everyone else. And Soren (if you've been levelling him, which you should for all intents and purposes of a Calill compared to Soren comparison...) would likely have a level lead/advantage however small it might be. And the chapters where she IS taking a deployment slot freely aren't ones where I've said, "Great, I get to use Calill!". I feel Calill is worse than say Volke. Let's start with that I guess

Quote
Titania is a person I can actually see lowering. I think she's really a fantastic PC most of the game, Canto and hits really hard. I did notice she does fall off in maps like 4-3(the fight against Oliver) and onward, and she felt like one of the LVPs of Endgame when I brought her there. If you could point out a few specific examples of where Titania isn't useful I'd appreciat it.

I'm not Yoshi, but some examples of the top of my head...
Titania certainly doesn't like 3-4 as much due to cliffs and not being able to go up them at all. She also doesn't like 3-7 although in fairness, that level is simply "Wait for 12 turns". She can't move pass the reeds in that level and if you want to recruit SEKRIT SPOILER PC, it means she can't provide the support for those advancing units. And I think she's fine for a few of the other levels in part 3. She might not like 3-3 as much either due to the narrow crossways and random thickets hampering her movement, but that doesn't matter since everyone loses to Haar on that level. She eats a move penalty in 4-4 removing her movement advantage over others. Think that may be it. Her durability is also merely only okay for a frontline charging unit - so she may not want to stay significantly ahead of others without at least having some sort of support nearby

Quote
I built Edward. I am still frightened to put him anywhere near more than one enemy. The combination of constant critting potential + I DIE WHEN BABIES LOOK AT ME in Part 3 just made him unusable. You are building Edward and putting effort into Edward when you could, ya know, just use Zihark. Or you build Edward, get to Part 4, and realize that all this incredible babying (and I was babying him into Part 3) gets you a PC that still needs leveling and isn't better than Mia and Stefan even when you level him. He is an incredible pain in the ass to use for basically no positive return. A project character needs to really shine at Endgame to not be a waste. Even Fiona achieves this; she is better than basically all the Silver/Gold Knights at Endgame, and this is cool! Does it make her worth it? Not really.

I find more use out of Edward than say Lucia and Renning since Edward is doing something quite pivotal in the first few chapters of Part 1 at the very least. He's never going to be as good as Zihark/Mia (no matter what all the Edward fanboys say), but he's better than Renning and Lucia to me. In the prolouge, he's probably the tankiest character out of the three despite learning to block axes with his face, and in 1-1 and 1-2, he's providing servicable offense by doubling enemies, which lets Leo/himself/Micaiah finish them off. That's already 2 more chapters more use than Lucia. Don't remember if he's doing anything in 1-3, but in 1-4, he's also capable of helping Nolan out to take the Tigers with that Wind Edge. And if we're deploying Lucia in 4-2...I dunno, but deploying Edward at that point to me means he's at least gained levels to compete with her. I wanted to avoid bringing stats into this (what FE without stats? BLASPHEMY) but I'm not sure how much HP/Def he has. I'm pretty certain that he should be easily more durable though (A support is likely which is +2, whatever that is worth + 8 Avo/Dgd). She beats him if you literally stop using him after 1-6 sure (since you get Zihax at that point), and if that's what we're basing the in game use ranking on, then ignore this paragraph >_>.

Quote
Boyd is just... worse than every PC in his party by quite a ways. The tier above him is filled with people who fill situational roles (Lucia is good in 2-2(Lucia lord!), Renning is good at killing both dragons and generals because he doubles Generals with Hammer, Skirmir is good in 4-Prologue, etc), but Boyd just doesn't get deployed and doesn't do much unless you willingly decide "I want to use Boyd!". I feel like this tier is filled with people who there is basically no reason to use them at any point in the game, and Boyd is like this. Could you remind me of these specific examples with Boyd, since I seem to be not recalling the right maps?

3-4 is the one with the cliffs where Ranulf and Ike have to arrive together, while 3-5 is defending the Seliora castle. In 3-4, Cavalry can't move up past the ledges, so infantry have advantages there. 6 move also hurts the mages since they take longer to actual cross the cliffs and can't move as far even after moving up them due to their higher movement costs. Not to say Boyd owns in this map, but he's likely able to provide more support than Oscar/Titania after a certain point where all the non ledge enemies are dead and the mages are just so slow that never really make that much of a difference. 3-5, he's again capable of doing something by hogging the ledges on the castle and picking off whatever stupid enemy decides to attack him with a -50 Hit penalty. Or at the very least, injuring them a bit.

And in fairness? Despite FE10 being one of the harder FEs, you never really have to have a reason to use anyone. You don't have to use Haar if you don't want to (what? BLASPHEMY). Boyd...if you actually have to use him/want to use him, he's quite capable of holding his own pass his rocky start; probably a bit better than Soren to boot. Of course, the core question is, would you? At the very least, you can't remove him for 3-P and 3-1, so you can test him a few levels and see if he's gaining what he needs to and if not, then you should drop him. At least in those chapters, he's not actually actively harming the party by existing or being such a liability because he dies in two hits like Sanaki. Again, personally see him as being merely Mediocre instead of outright suck.

Quote
Gareth only faces enemies who hit RES. If he actually fought enemies that used Defense, I would respect him far more! He just gets doubled and dies to the final boss so he has one map of worse-than-Ena-at-the-same-job. >_> I guess you could use both for MAXIMUM POWER!

I dunno, I wouldn't use Gareth to attack anything, period. He's job is to stand on a tile and provide a meaty +5 boost (possibly +10) to the good offense units like Cain. He also gets 2 chapters instead of just 1! Huge difference I know. And using both for MAXIMUM POWER!!!! is certainly an option since Sanaki and Sothe are good candidates to drop at that point. That's more than can be said of Astrid/Fiona/Lyre to me.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 08:35:03 PM »
The final boss can attack from infinite range with a magic attack is what I meant.

Do Blood Tides stack?
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Tide

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 08:38:43 PM »
The final boss can attack from infinite range with a magic attack is what I meant.

Do Blood Tides stack?

I think...? Not 100% certain myself sadly. But him being on field means that at least two other units are also getting +5s to attack.

I thought the infinite range attack is 50 Might Max? Gareth has 80 HP or something silly, so he can probably take a hit there. Unless you CAN get doubled by MT magic. In which case, uh...yeah, he fails then >_>.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 08:41:06 PM »
Ena gets doubled by it and died. ;_;

I will respond to the rest of your post later~
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 09:21:42 PM »
Quick responses since I'm on lunch break:

The list is constructed based on Normal Mode, because that's what Ciato and I have mainly played. Well, I've played Hard Mode as well, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone else (lulz no weapon triangle no visible enemy ranges), so screw it.

Elincia... you say Haar trivialises 2-P, I say 2-P is all dead except 3 enemies by the time Haar shows up. It doesn't matter much since 2-P is on my list of maps too small/short/easy/dominated by guests to really merit consideration (the rest being 1-P, 3-P, 3-7, and 3-E). But anyway. In 2-E she is absolutely amazing, and then after that she just makes such a compelling case for herself to be used, awesome Atk + high staff level. It's reasonable to want a second staff user for Endgame and nobody else even comes close to Elincia's combat worth who can also fill that role. Might not be a Gamebreaker but is anyone in Awesome better than her? I agree that she's not as good as Cain in Endgame but she does have 3 maps of being good before then, including one where she is outright amazing.

Lucia's position is important. Along with Vika, she has one map where she is notably good (and then bad otherwise). The same is also true of a few other PCs in this area, like Skrimir. Everyone in the bottom two tiers is basically either never good, or in the case of Fiona, just so bad for so long that when she actually becomes good it isn't worth it.

Renning was basically covered. He is decent Endgame filler (outright excellent for E-1, Wyrmslayer makes him competent in E-3, otherwise eh). Chances are you have better choices, but he's not a -bad- one and if hypothetically if you are really lacking good PCs to take to Endgame he starts to look rather good. I could see him falling anyway, though... hard one to gauge, to me.

Volug owns Part 3 so hard it isn't funny. He's the only character who doubles Cats. Monstrous attack stat. Great HP. Earth supports + that speed and luck = great evade. You can throw him into a pack of laguz and watch him eat them all and come out unscathed. Add in Resolve for a nice Evade boost below half HP as extra insurance if you wish (and he still has room for another skill, unlike beorc). Nobody else in the DB even comes close to managing this evade tanking except Zihark, who quite apart from not being as good on the evade front, is way the hell worse when he is hit (2HKOed instead of 5HKOed assuming an even mix of tigers and cats) so can't play this role safely. Toss in being your best character in two Part 1 maps (1-5 and 1-6-2) and really good in a bunch of others and you have the best character in the DB. Ciato argues that best in the DB = best in the game given how relatively fewer good units that team has and this seems reasonable, especially when you consider that Volug ALSO has a really good Endgame (Laguz Gem + great Speed, Evade, and Attack).

I think Titania is clearly the 3rd best character in the Greil Mercenaries, even if we define the GMs to include the <s>hax</s> hawks. Comparing her to laguz royals is pretty hard though. She's almost laguz royal level herself in the period where she is promoted and nobody else is, and is never bad otherwise (kinda meh for the last two endgame maps) so she at least makes a decent case for herself (and I do think it's telling that the speedrun basically just uses her and Haar to beat Part 3), but I am definitely open to the idea that she should be a bit lower.

I assume Meg in failures is a joke given the smiley after it? I think Meg may be a little high but I have trouble comparing her with non-DBers and within the DB I think she's placed well, between Aran and Leo. 20+ Def and Spd in Part 3 is cool (Volug and Tauroneo are the only others with a hope of this) even if 8 base Spd is blah.

Jill... well. Jill/Nolan/Sothe form a bit of a trinity of DB mainstays behind Volug, folks who are always good, and don't bugger off for Part 3. Of them, Sothe lost out a bit because while Nolan/Jill are terrific Endgame choices, Sothe is a terrible one. So Nolan vs. Jill becomes the comparison and both Ciato and I had trouble deciding between them. Stat-wise the two are awfully similar (Nolan wins HP, Jill wins Def but this is roughly equivalent), so it comes down to Nolan's earth affinity vs. Jill's flight and Canto. In the end, we went with the latter. It gives her a big win in, say, the desert. However in retrospect I'm not sure we gave Nolan enough credit for 1-1 through 1-5, which could push him past Jill again easily enough. Hmm.

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Meeplelard

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 09:45:09 PM »
Glancing at the list, I think Nealuchi is a bit underrated.

He's pretty decent in Part 2, from my recollection, and can pull his weight (for all that he clearly needs to play catch up with little time to do so) in Part 4.  I'd say he's better than Vika, though I suppose the argument of "Vika exists within the Dawn Brigade" kicks in, which gives her points, as she is rather good during that brief section in Part 1 where you can use her (and probably your most crucial unit in 1-8, where she's the ONLY character who can fly, thus only one who can appropriately bait out Wyverns over the Swamp.)  I think putting him at 2nd worst tier is a bit much.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 09:45:48 PM »
I assume Meg in failures is a joke given the smiley after it? I think Meg may be a little high but I have trouble comparing her with non-DBers and within the DB I think she's placed well, between Aran and Leo. 20+ Def and Spd in Part 3 is cool (Volug and Tauroneo are the only others with a hope of this) even if 8 base Spd is blah.

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 10:01:21 PM »
Is there any particular reason why Gatrie is 2 tiers above Brom? Their isn't a huge difference between the two statwise and Brom is around for longer and is useful during that period. There's less competition for lances than for axes, but is that really worth a two tier difference? I also think that Tormond is a bit high. He has good stats and the extra movement is nice, but unless you really level him in Michaiah's chapters he's going to be a liability when he rejoins.

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 11:10:47 PM »
Gatrie has a few noteworthy advantages on Brom.

First off, Gatrie is significantly faster than Brom, while still retaining a similar defense scores (contrast to Meg whose Defense is somewhat lower than other Generals, if still good by the standards of other units.)  This makes him much better offensively than Brom.

Next off,  Brom has a net total of ONE more Map on Gatrie.  Brom has 2-1, 2-2, and 2-E as maps he's available but Gatrie is not; Gatrie has 3-P and 3-1.  2-1 is also pretty laughable on EXP from my recollection cause of Brom's level edge relative to the enemies, but I'm not completely certain.  In any event, this is a pretty meager edge Brom has on Gatrie.  FLIPSIDE, Gatrie has a significant level edge on Brom, so while their ending stats may be similar, Gatrie's starting stats when the two are comparable in 3-2 are somewhat better, he's definitely a stronger PC in the short run, with have no real disadvantages in the long run.

EDIT: Ok, rewriting the weapon thing cause I didn't realize just how overkill it was in this department.

Assuming no transfer data...
Gatrie: A in Lances, B in Axes
Brom: C in Axes, E In Swords.

Really, this speaks entirely for itself.  Especially when you remember E in a weapon rank means "Bronze weapons only", which is so bad its not even funny.

Branching from that, Gatrie has a better SS than Brom.  Brom's SS is Axes, Gatrie's is Lances.  Wishblade is a pretty freaking sweet weapon while Urvan is one of the worse legendaries in the game (its still a damn good weapon of course.)

SO yeah, Gatrie being 2 tiers above Brom seems very reasonable to me.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 11:22:10 PM by Meeplelard »
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2010, 02:18:20 AM »
Is there any particular reason why Gatrie is 2 tiers above Brom? Their isn't a huge difference between the two statwise and Brom is around for longer and is useful during that period. There's less competition for lances than for axes, but is that really worth a two tier difference? I also think that Tormond is a bit high. He has good stats and the extra movement is nice, but unless you really level him in Michaiah's chapters he's going to be a liability when he rejoins.

Tormod's relatively high ranking is basically pretending that he died after 1-Endgame and had those three maps to be useful on. He is really quite useful on the three maps he's in in Part 1, especially the save the civilians map and 1-Endgame he is a good tank against the reinforcements at the bottom. Lucia and Vika and other people get this as well, but they are less useful on their maps of useful.
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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2010, 03:22:39 PM »
Next off,  Brom has a net total of ONE more Map on Gatrie.  Brom has 2-1, 2-2, and 2-E as maps he's available but Gatrie is not; Gatrie has 3-P and 3-1.  2-1 is also pretty laughable on EXP from my recollection cause of Brom's level edge relative to the enemies, but I'm not completely certain.  In any event, this is a pretty meager edge Brom has on Gatrie.  FLIPSIDE, Gatrie has a significant level edge on Brom, so while their ending stats may be similar, Gatrie's starting stats when the two are comparable in 3-2 are somewhat better, he's definitely a stronger PC in the short run, with have no real disadvantages in the long run.

While I agree on most of you points, Brom plays a much bigger role in the maps that he's in than Gatrie does in his. 2-1 would be very difficult to defeat with just Nephenee and Heather because Heather's strength sucks and Nephenee doesn't have enough to do good damage to the boss. 2-E especially is where Brom really shines because you can place him at that chokepoint on the right side of the map to block the general swarm from advancing. None of the other units can really do this as well as Brom because the Laguz have to worry about their gauges running out and Haar wants to be doing other things. Gatrie doesn't doesn't have a map where he's as important as Brom is in 2-E. The only one with a chokepoint that you want to block is the one in the darkness map in the town and even then Gatrie isn't your only option. Ike, Titania, and Boyd are all decent to good at blocking chokepoints.

Meeplelard

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2010, 05:08:08 PM »
Of course 2-1 would be harder without Brom, cause you only have 2 PCs (1 initially) to work with.  If you replaced Brom with any semi-competent (ideally Beorc or AUto-Shifted Laguz ala Nealuchi in 2-P), the map wouldn't be too hard.  Put someone like Makalov in for example, and you'd be fine.  That's less a Brom thing and more a nature of Map restrictions; Brom just happens to be one of the select PCs used there.  He earns about as much credit there as Elincia does kicking ass in 2-P before Haar arrives.

2-2, Brom's not that special.  Lucia's the powerhouse here (this is her map to shine), and when shifted, Mordecai is absolutely nuts.  Nephenee, Nealuchi and Lethe are all good too (The latter two require being shifted of course).  Really, none of the PCs here are really bad.

Your argument against Gatrie in 3-P applies just as much to 2-E.  Shove, say, Nephenee in a choke point, if you position her right, she won't be taking too much damage, even if hit, and you can tank with Vulnerries.  But more importantly, Mordecai fills that role just as well, just requires some Olivi Grass, and then we have Haar as well.  Plus you have a boat load of Ally units that can keep that one lone choke point done.

Brom's role in these 3 do not make up for the fact that Gatrie's just so much better in the maps where you can use both too.  You can't ignore this.  It'd be one thing if we were relying totally on End Game, where yeah, its a small section of the game, but this is the majority of the Greil Merc section of Part 3, as well as Part 4.  When making a balanced team, I'd sooner put Gatrie to a weaker team that could use a strong character like him than Brom.  This isn't to say Brom is bad, but its hard to justify using him over Gatrie in really any scenario where both are available.

Being more useful on your unique maps (or being useful on harder maps) when they encompass only a small percent of your gameplay time, and in all other scenarios, the alternative he's being compared to is just a lot better...yeah.

And its not like Gatrie vs. Brom is a "Gatrie's a little better than Brom", its kind of overkill.  Brom has higher defense, but Gatrie's defense is high enough that you just don't care.  What matters more is that Gatrie's always going to be significantly faster and probably higher strength too, and crushes Brom on weapon levels, so he's A LOT better offensively than Brom.  The whole Wishblade vs. Urvan thing of course just adds insult to injury, being the finishing blow for why Gatrie is just a much better overall; the fact that he's also a bit more RNG proof doesn't hurt too.

Oh, forgot to say this!

With all this in mind, Gatrie being 2 tiers above Brom feels reasonable.  Its sort of like how Brom is filler UNTIL you get Gatrie, and then the only reason to use Brom is when you have extra space to use both (or just cause you really want to.)  In both my FE10 playthroughs, Brom sort of fell behind, and thus kind of stopped being useful mid-Part 3.  Gatrie, meanwhile, continued to be useful pretty much the entire way through part 4 both games, and certainly was good enough to make my Final Team if I wanted to use him (he didn't made the cut, but mostly cause of my team synergy, etc., little to do with how good he was.)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 05:15:24 PM by Meeplelard »
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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2010, 07:59:46 PM »
Just some quick responses since I don't want this to blow completely out of proportion. It probably will though...

@ NEB:

Quote
Elincia... you say Haar trivialises 2-P, I say 2-P is all dead except 3 enemies by the time Haar shows up. It doesn't matter much since 2-P is on my list of maps too small/short/easy/dominated by guests to really merit consideration (the rest being 1-P, 3-P, 3-7, and 3-E). But anyway. In 2-E she is absolutely amazing, and then after that she just makes such a compelling case for herself to be used, awesome Atk + high staff level. It's reasonable to want a second staff user for Endgame and nobody else even comes close to Elincia's combat worth who can also fill that role. Might not be a Gamebreaker but is anyone in Awesome better than her? I agree that she's not as good as Cain in Endgame but she does have 3 maps of being good before then, including one where she is outright amazing.

I don't think 2-E was ever in question - definitely agree she shines there and is probably the MVP unit if you play it traditionally (ie: Actually defending instead of Haar blitzkreg and finish it in a turn). 2-P though...as far as I recall, Haar appears on either turn 2 or turn 3? Either I'm doing something wrong or misremembering because my recollection of it was basically neither Marcia/Elincia/Nealuchi had enough power to one round the Wyverns (Neither Nealuchi or Marcia have that great starting strengths, Marcia is also eating a -1 Atk due to spears to axes and Elincia is locked to a Slim sword unless you're going to staff beat the enemy). By the time Haar arrives, you probably cleared out a few sets of enemies, but definitely don't remembering it being all dead sans like the boss. I'll agree though that is way too small of a map though. I feel she's probably behind Cain, because you're right in that I can't think of anyone in the Awesome tier beating her out for endgame. And Jill/Nolan have their faults too in the DB chapters that hold them back as opposed to Elincia completely destroying 2-E. The only thing I guess that would her back from being the best offensive healer that I can think of would be that she has no adequate 2 range. But then again, neither does Cain, so its a moot point. Still, Cain is great from the onset and is probably going to be the strongest offensive unit you can deploy. Micaiah's already forced and her combat worth at that point is really starting to slump, so its possible that you don't want/need a secondary healing unit at all.

Quote
Lucia's position is important. Along with Vika, she has one map where she is notably good (and then bad otherwise). The same is also true of a few other PCs in this area, like Skrimir. Everyone in the bottom two tiers is basically either never good, or in the case of Fiona, just so bad for so long that when she actually becomes good it isn't worth it.

I dunno, I certainly feel that Edward has certain maps where he is good. Especially since some of the eary Part 1 chapters completely bar you from using other units that you would want to use like Taureno. Even factoring in the early Part 1 maps as only half chapters (like 1-P and 1-1 for example), he's still benefitting the team until 1-6 at the very least. Deploying Edward in some of those maps, he's still actually helping the team out with 1-2 range attacks and even when Zihax comes by since his offense doesn't particularly sink to the point of unusable. So picking off weakened units and allowing your actual frontline to advance helps since they don't have to completely slow down just to take care of some guy that might have like 21 HP or something left but would die via an Edward double. I won't vouch for him being particularly a good unit past 1-6 because he's not. At that point, Zihark is just going to completely lol at anything Edward does pretty much. But if Lucia is getting deployed in 4-2 and taking pot shots, Edward can do that too in Part 1 maps to help out. Sure, he might never benefit the team ever after 1-E or what not, but that's still at least 6 half chapters where he is doing something beneficial.

Quote
Renning was basically covered. He is decent Endgame filler (outright excellent for E-1, Wyrmslayer makes him competent in E-3, otherwise eh). Chances are you have better choices, but he's not a -bad- one and if hypothetically if you are really lacking good PCs to take to Endgame he starts to look rather good. I could see him falling anyway, though... hard one to gauge, to me.

Yeah. Again, I think part of this is how much weight are we placing on Endgame chapters? Edward debately helps out the DB at the time when none of the DB units are hax. Renning comes by when you have Giffca + Royals. Sure you have 5 other spots and hypothetically its possible to get stuck with severely screwed units. But the list of Amazing tier/Competent tier level units all dying or turning out bad in practice is just quite unlikely. You're likely to receive a few blessed units compared to a few screwed units. I just don't find Renning to be ever really worth anything at all since he just comes at a time when you're never likely to deploy him. And compared to say the other end game filler like Stefan, he's just loses out to them too. Even Stefan at least has like 1/4 of a map where he may potentially be capable of doing something. Renning is literally "cannot be deployed until 4E-1 and takes up a deployment slot". That's just sour.

Quote
I think Titania is clearly the 3rd best character in the Greil Mercenaries, even if we define the GMs to include the <s>hax</s> hawks. Comparing her to laguz royals is pretty hard though. She's almost laguz royal level herself in the period where she is promoted and nobody else is, and is never bad otherwise (kinda meh for the last two endgame maps) so she at least makes a decent case for herself (and I do think it's telling that the speedrun basically just uses her and Haar to beat Part 3), but I am definitely open to the idea that she should be a bit lower.

I find Titania's worth probably starting to slump around the time when the hawks start showing up. Now you have Ike + 2 Haars that have 1 range and transformation + 1 Haar. Doesn't deter from the fact that you should still be deploying her because her offense is great - just maybe compared to those guys, she's starting to lose the wtf awesome value she had from before. How much this is worth...I have no clue. Because Titania also never gets bad during this period - even her end game performance is okay, though not spectacular. And the Hawks still have more weakness issues whereas Horseslayers are not as common. So the only way the hawks are winning is if we're putting end game performance as absolutely critical. She may be just ahead of Elincia (so a small drop from where she is?).

Quote
I assume Meg in failures is a joke given the smiley after it? I think Meg may be a little high but I have trouble comparing her with non-DBers and within the DB I think she's placed well, between Aran and Leo. 20+ Def and Spd in Part 3 is cool (Volug and Tauroneo are the only others with a hope of this) even if 8 base Spd is blah.

Meg is underrated I feel. At least in Easy/Normal modes where you have enough EXP to give to her. Then she's actually worth consider. Because unlike Mr. I-block-axes-with-my-face -Edward, you can afford to bonus up Meg a bit when you first get so she gets a few points of speed. She's going to hit that cap pretty early. And she actually ends up *getting* defense. You know, the one stat that almost everyone in the DB is horribly crap at outside of a few decently durable to start units like Volug? So yeah, I'm mostly fine with where she is. Maybe behind Brom, but regardless, the difference isn't particularly big.

Quote
Jill... well. Jill/Nolan/Sothe form a bit of a trinity of DB mainstays behind Volug, folks who are always good, and don't bugger off for Part 3. Of them, Sothe lost out a bit because while Nolan/Jill are terrific Endgame choices, Sothe is a terrible one. So Nolan vs. Jill becomes the comparison and both Ciato and I had trouble deciding between them. Stat-wise the two are awfully similar (Nolan wins HP, Jill wins Def but this is roughly equivalent), so it comes down to Nolan's earth affinity vs. Jill's flight and Canto. In the end, we went with the latter. It gives her a big win in, say, the desert. However in retrospect I'm not sure we gave Nolan enough credit for 1-1 through 1-5, which could push him past Jill again easily enough. Hmm.

Nolan can also go to the swamp level if he wants to. Swamp level is awesome for those crossbow users since they slap on Beastfoe and watch as enemies suicide themselves. Insert more lolz if you planned ahead and grabbed Dragonfoe in Distortions with someone who's inventory is full and transferred to the convoy. Nolan's possibly one of the better characters for this too due to Earth affinity and likely A support keeping him self and he should have plenty of HP by now to take more than a hit if the evasion fails. It's not as unique as Jill going lolzdesert, but I felt like pointing it out anyway. Regardless, like I said to Ciato, I don't have a huge problem with where she is and can certainly understand her being above Nolan (flight is awesome as is Canto). My kneejerk is just that Nolan is stronger due to his earlier performances and how she's isn't adequately beating him enough at a time when both of them can be deployed.

@ Dude:
Quote
While I agree on most of you points, Brom plays a much bigger role in the maps that he's in than Gatrie does in his. 2-1 would be very difficult to defeat with just Nephenee and Heather because Heather's strength sucks and Nephenee doesn't have enough to do good damage to the boss. 2-E especially is where Brom really shines because you can place him at that chokepoint on the right side of the map to block the general swarm from advancing. None of the other units can really do this as well as Brom because the Laguz have to worry about their gauges running out and Haar wants to be doing other things. Gatrie doesn't doesn't have a map where he's as important as Brom is in 2-E. The only one with a chokepoint that you want to block is the one in the darkness map in the town and even then Gatrie isn't your only option. Ike, Titania, and Boyd are all decent to good at blocking chokepoints.

2-1 is weird. Yeah, Brom is certainly the better of the units there but his mobility is handicapped so he can't run around to the houses quickly or recruit Heather. I think its around even between Brom and Neph here since while Brom is winning out raw combat, Nephenee is still doing other important tasks in the map. In 2-E, Brom still has to watch out for that Hammer General, which is incredibly unpleasant. Mordecai is a much better roadblock since he literally has to do nothing but eat Olivi Grass. And his defense right now is stupid overkill along with plenty of HP which lets him take a hit or two from the mages without worrying too much. By the time both Gatrie and Brom are together, Gatrie is slaughtering Brom horribly in terms of offense. Weapon levels alone are damning. But Brom is also dealing with Gatrie's higher level + 60% speed growth. Which also means Gatrie is likely to promote earlier via Crowning since he's likely to reach his critical stat caps that much faster. Brom's stat spread is pretty bad and his bases aren't high enough so you can adequately bonus him to get the one stat he REALLY wants (speed). 3-1 has a choke which Gatrie is probably the best for period. Ike and Titania probably want to go the roundabout way since they are faster + there is a hammer on the otherside instead of the choke. Boyd has HP but also is facing damage + crit rates meaning he can randomly get clipped and die for no apparent reason other than a lucky shot. Meanwhile, Gatrie is going lol 0 damage critz. Come 3-5 where they defend the castle, they're both good at blocking the central pass from being overtaken. But here's where the offensive difference just dooms Brom for whatever advantage he could get. Gatrie is doubling all the generals and probably most of the horsies to boot, meaning he's clearing that front path because enemies are stupidly suiciding themselves into him. Brom's useful if you want to train another unit or give some EXPs away to other units with good growths but start lower levelled. But he's never helping out the same way as Gatrie since he's mowing down the enemies like crazy whereas Brom is tackling them piecemeal. Whatever support advantage Brom has is probably gone by this point too since Gatrie is likely getting a support from the GMs himself at this point. Brom never really ever recovers this. He could be a bit higher up, but the difference between is pretty clear cut. It's very unlikely for them to be within the same tier.
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Meeplelard

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2010, 09:29:32 PM »
I forgot another advantage Gatrie has on Brom, which while minor, is still there.

The Bonds.  Gatrie starts with a Bond with Shinon, Brom has a Bond with Meg.  Seems even until you remember that Gatrie and Shinon are always potentially in the same map together, so Gatrie can always make some use of this, which is nice as it means the potential Mage Crit that can actually get past his defenses becomes that much less worrisome (The Crit edge is nice too, but also nothing to care much about.  Bonds are usually more important for the Dodge Boost to get rid of that annoying 4% Crit that can cost you a reset.)

Meg?  Doesn't get into a map with Brom until Part 4, unless its possible for Meg/Brom to recruit the other in an earlier map ala Mist recruiting Jill or Mordecai recruiting Zihark, but I've heard the two don't recruit each other, but also refuse to attack each other as well, so it sounds like Part 4 is when the two can be used together.

Regarding how the Bond supports the two...well, Shinon being an archer makes an ideal unit to sit behind Gatrie, as he can snipe away.  I guess Meg can be used for 2 panel chokepoints like some of those in 4-1 alongside Brom...eh, both are workable bonds, I guess I'll say, when available, just Meg's Bond with Brom becomes available much later than Shinon's with Gatrie.

Again, its a minor advantage, but still there.
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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 09:40:31 PM »
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Volug owns Part 3 so hard it isn't funny. He's the only character who doubles Cats. Monstrous attack stat. Great HP. Earth supports + that speed and luck = great evade. You can throw him into a pack of laguz and watch him eat them all and come out unscathed. Add in Resolve for a nice Evade boost below half HP as extra insurance if you wish (and he still has room for another skill, unlike beorc). Nobody else in the DB even comes close to managing this evade tanking except Zihark, who quite apart from not being as good on the evade front, is way the hell worse when he is hit (2HKOed instead of 5HKOed assuming an even mix of tigers and cats) so can't play this role safely.

All this Volug love puzzles me as someone who is useless for half the game should be nowhere near the top. Also part 3? You mean the DB battle with the cats and tigers? Leonardo and Nolan can break that battle easily without much effort and I don't see Leonardo anywhere near the top.
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Toss in being your best character in two Part 1 maps (1-5 and 1-6-2) and really good in a bunch of others and you have the best character in the DB.
Wait what? Volug is useless for the whole of part 1 as any kill he gets is a waste. Honestly I'd rate Volug just above the bottem as he just isn't worth it in my eyes.

Meeplelard

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2010, 09:57:38 PM »
Part 1 Volug is no worse than Sothe.  Sothe has the advantage of not being weak to Fire, can avoid counters, and the Micaiah Auto A Support, where as Volug has greater mobility, more durable due to raw HP, and doesn't cost any money to maintain (sort of matters when you have actual fund issues early game.)  It comes out about even if you ask me.  He does taper off a bit in later parts cause his stats are kind of static unless you wanna throw away BEXP on him early; I say THrow Away cause this early, you don't have a lot of BEXP to work with, and others need it more than he does.  He also looks worse cause Muarim and Nailah come in and they just sort of crush him on stats due to Full Shift vs. Half-shift; that's not Volug being bad so much as those two being brutal for this section.

He still doubles everything, has competent offense, isn't totally frail due to good evade and high HP, and is incredibly mobile, so he's good at rescuing.  He's still pulling his weight by the end of Part 1, for all that his Jeigan moment is past.

Volug is great in Part 3 cause he can take off Wild Heart, and use Olivi Grass.  Sure, he needs to wait an extra turn relative to Cats and Tigers, or use another Olivi Grass to transform turn 3 like they do, but once he does transform, he's pretty damn beastly (no pun intended.)  Doubles damn near everything, great dodge, high HP...and since there's a lack of Fire Mages for pretty much all of Part 3, his main weakness isn't even there.   If you work him past the useless first few turns, he sort of destroys everything from there on in.  Wildheart is really a bad skill, and should be taken off as soon as possible; sadly cannot be done in Part 1, though if you could, Volug would be about as good as Muarim.

Leonardo I've honestly found kind of worthless.  Archer is a bad class, and Sniper is only moderately better, and I've honestly never gotten him to Sniper in Part 1, so he's pretty much always an Archer there.  Lughnasadh is more "This makes Leonardo able to do stuff" rather than "Suck completely."  He's pretty much always significantly worse than Shinon and Rolf, so don't use them as examples good Sniper/Marksmen (not only that, but they generally have Level Edges.  Shinon's got the obvious massive level lead, Rolf's low level Tier 2, true, but he's got 5 maps before you get Leo again, and that's enough to get him somewhat ahead of Leo; the enemies he faces also give significantly more EXP than anything Leo faced, so there really is no excuse for Leo to be higher level than Rolf other than favoritism on Leo's end or negligence on Rolf's end.)

Leo cannot counter anything outside of maybe a weak Crossbow use (does that even exist in 3-6?), he struggles to double Tigers without Lughnasadh, and he's frail.  He honestly is one of the worse units in the Dawn Brigade, if not THE worst.  The only time I really found him useful was in points where I really needed ranged damage, like at that chokepoint in 3-13, where he can stand atop alongside 2 NPCs and snipe enemies for free EXP...and frankly, he's not unique in being able to do this, as all weapon classes have a ranged variant. 

[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Rozalia

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2010, 10:49:27 PM »
Crossbows can be brought in shops at that point to answer your question. Lughnasadh + beastfoe kills beastman by the dozens and as long as the terrain is to his advantage his bad defensive stats don't matter.
Leo is a bit bad up to that point but I felt like stating he is actually pretty good in part 3.


« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 10:51:24 PM by Rozalia »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2010, 11:01:59 PM »
Meg and Brom can indeed not be played together until Part 4.


To Rozalia:

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Volug is useless for the whole of part 1 as any kill he gets is a waste.

First, that's a fallacious argument. If Caineghis joined in 1-Prologue and magically teleported around the world so he was available in every single map, and started at Level 40 with all stats capped, then every kill he got would be a "waste" (since he doesn't get better) but he would very, very clearly be the best character in the game by a country mile. A character's worth isn't judged by how fast she is improving, but by how good she already is at any given point in the game.

Second, it's untrue. Every kill he gets nets him 2 strike experience. So does every non-kill, for that matter, so if you prefer having him set up kills on knights for others, he can do that (and since only Micaiah and temps can reliably kill knights, this is useful).

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Leonardo and Nolan can break that battle easily without much effort and I don't see Leonardo anywhere near the top.

3-6 and 3-12 are generally regarded as two of the hardest battles in the game. I'm not really sure how Nolan and Leo break 3-6... I assume you are referring to Beastfoe + Crossbow, but that doesn't let them tank, just kill. Volug can do both, while letting someone else have Beastfoe, and surviving is at least as valuable as killing there. Then there's the fact that 3-12 isn't vulnerable to Beastfoe.


To Tide:

Hmm, though it's an irrelevant tangent, could Haar's join turn be a EM vs. NM thing? Pretty sure on NM he shows up at the end of turn... 5? But yeah, who cares.

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Even factoring in the early Part 1 maps as only half chapters (like 1-P and 1-1 for example), he's still benefitting the team until 1-6 at the very least. Deploying Edward in some of those maps, he's still actually helping the team out with 1-2 range attacks and even when Zihax comes by since his offense doesn't particularly sink to the point of unusable.

I guess this comes down to "Lucia's performance in 2-2" vs. "Edward's performance in early maps". Ed isn't ever as good as Lucia is in that one map, but he does have a few more maps of semi-competence... I dunno. Ed never feels even above average in any map except 1-P because you get better frontliners (Nolan in 1-1, Sothe in 1-2, Aran in 1-3, etc.) and DB maps feel built to park a frontliner or two in a chokepoint and have everyone else lob things from range 2. Ed's range 2 is pretty weak and you only have so many Wind Edges. I'm not really inclined to give much credit for "below average but hey he isn't taking a spot at least" but this might be a personal quirk, I dunno. If you do give Ed credit for being better than an empty slot in 1-1 through 1-6 (though... only barely in 1-4, that map really emphasises a small number of units) then he could go up a bit.

At this point I am pretty certain we agree on all the performance issues of both characters, but are unsure on how to score them.

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just don't find Renning to be ever really worth anything at all since he just comes at a time when you're never likely to deploy him. And compared to say the other end game filler like Stefan, he's just loses out to them too.

Hmm, another approach. Suppose someone liked Renning? They think he's cool and want to use him. How much will they suffer for this, if Renning is indeed bad? (and he's pretty low down the list, so he's kinda bad)

My kneejerk is less than someone who really wants to use Boyd will suffer for that. Boyd is further below average than Renning is for each of their first 5 chapters (hi I have the worst Spd of any non-healer GM, the worst Str of any axe-user, and shoddy defences) and in order for Boyd to ever get better you have to either get lucky or spend resources (kill Exp mainly) on him, and even then the end product isn't really any better than Renning I think (Boyd will have a support built up at endgame, and a Strength lead, but Renning has a horse, a Wyrmslayer, higher chance of snagging an SS weapon, and much better Res). Which leads me to think Renning > Boyd. Granted, Renning could still drop a bit because he is currently above two PCs with one good map and one PC with a few okay maps. Consider this a vote for moving him between Edward and Sanaki.

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I find Titania's worth probably starting to slump around the time when the hawks start showing up.

Honestly I think Titania is in full on hax mode during this period, though I suspect this is a difficulty mode difference. Titania is probably your only tier 3 PC at this point (Haar might be too and is at least close behind but Haar is where he is for a reason). Gold Knight Titania has offence that is nothing short of disgusting (lol 25 spd 44 atk) and defence which while not as wall-like as Gatrie or Haar's is still evil because it has no weaknesses at all (no, Horseslayers don't count; I'm referring to her respectable Res/Luck mainly here). Other GMs generally don't promote until late in Part 3 short of favouritism or a Master Crown (and the only one before 3-11 is highly contested).

But otherwise I generally agree, as others promote she definitely starts to fall off (offence keeps up fairly well though) but is never bad. Basically she is a character with a lot of availability who ranges from "pretty good" to "wow" which is actually a pretty good summary of Ike and Haar as well, and while I think those two are better (Ike's bases are just too good, Haar's good stats + flight in a team that badly needs it) the fact that there is a comparison says something. I am not opposed to twiddling her with one or more of the Part 4 badasses as I've said, just speaking up for her in general.


I need to respond to Meeple re Nealuchi later, he deserves to be talked about at least.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2010, 11:06:26 PM »
On the other hand, Renning and Oliver in the same tier = blah. Oliver is a distant 3rd in line for filler staff user in endgame and useless in combat (DOUBLED BY GENERALS) which is quite a bit worse than Renning's competent-yet-uninspiring stat build. Maybe this is an argument for Oliver dropping a tier! But... high staff rank should prevent you from the stigma of pure failure. Probably. I guess them being on opposite ends of the same tier is fine.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.