Author Topic: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy  (Read 1266 times)

SnowFire

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Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« on: November 02, 2014, 01:26:27 AM »
Since Pyro was requesting they get trotted out somewhere earlier today in chat...  a mini-PG topic for the FF5 / Bravely Default topics recently created for the characters w/ multiple jobs.  This one throws a bunch of High Heavy & Low Godlikes at 'em, we'll see how they do.

Agnes (Bravely Default) - Powerful spoiling - if you're outsped and dependent on one damage type.
Faris (Final Fantasy 5) - Solid blitzer, spoils physicals with image, and has accurate Confuse & Stop.
Krile (FF5) - Good status blocking, full healing, HP-doubling, and instant death, but off below-par speed.
Celes (FF6) - "Control" Low Godlike.  If our flexi-characters above do way better than Celes, maybe they aren't Heavy.  We'll see!

Perhaps there'll be follow-up topics later for the rest in a week or so (Bartz/Edea probably Low Godlikes, Lenna/Tiz/Ringabel probably flat Godlike…)

Agnes vs. Chaos (FF1)
Agnes vs. Kuja (FF9)
Agnes vs. Wren (PS4)
Agnes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG)
Agnes vs. Wakka (FFX)
Agnes vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Agnes vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Agnes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Agnes vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Agnes vs. Nel (SO3)
Agnes vs. Ernst (S5)
Agnes vs. Deathevans (BoF2)
Agnes vs. Gangrel (FEA)

Faris vs. Chaos (FF1)
Faris vs. Kuja (FF9)
Faris vs. Wren (PS4)
Faris vs. Citan Uzuki (XG)
Faris vs. Wakka (FFX)
Faris vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Faris vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Faris vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Faris vs. Nel (SO3)
Faris vs. Ernst (S5)
Faris vs. Deathevans (BoF2)
Faris vs. Gangrel (FEA)

Krile vs. Chaos (FF1)
Krile vs. Kuja (FF9)
Krile vs. Wren (PS4)
Krile vs. Citan Uzuki (XG)
Krile vs. Wakka (FFX)
Krile vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Krile vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Krile vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Krile vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Krile vs. Nel (SO3)
Krile vs. Ernst (S5)
Krile vs. Deathevans (BoF2)
Krile vs. Gangrel (FEA)

Celes vs. Chaos (FF1)
Celes vs. Kuja (FF9)
Celes vs. Wren (PS4)
Celes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG)
Celes vs. Wakka (FFX)
Celes vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Celes vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Celes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Celes vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Celes vs. Nel (SO3)
Celes vs. Ernst (S5)
Celes vs. Deathevans (BoF2)
Celes vs. Gangrel (FEA)

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2014, 01:58:41 AM »
Faris & Krile later after I can steal Elf votes.

For Agnes, tentatively I'm going to say that if characters use their "default" jobs they get the A average, and if they use another job they get whichever is worse of the A or B averages (so the damage & defense average stays high, and they go up against the B speed average).  This may be a little bit too harsh, and I don't particularly like "privileging" one specific job set, but we'll see.  (I can see the argument for always using the best damage, akin to assuming Zidane uses a good weapon rather than a weak status weapon...  other stats are weirder, since there's a lot of suicidally dumb twinking that can be done to increase one stat at horrific costs like getting rid of your Hermes Sandals which I wouldn't particularly think is too relevant.)

Agnes vs. Chaos (FF1) - Blitzes out with Dark Vestal, Chaos's HP is trash.  I guess you can hype Chaos maybe having Dark resistance since Dark isn't in-game and Chaos resists lots of elements, but since Chaos's elemental game is worthless against both FADE and NUKE in-game (your best magic damage) and Dark resistance isn't real common in BD, I'm not seeing it.  (Edit: And yeah, I'd see Chaos as wimpier to magic than the stat topic does.)
Agnes vs. Kuja (FF9) - Flare Star goes through Reflect, right?  Kuja Reflects himself first to not get blitzed out, then just wins, I think.  Flare Star also being ITD to obviate Buff Up M. Resistance buffs also helps ensure Wind Cleric never gets time to do anything.  EDIT: Still nto changing the vote despite the Conjuring -> Hresvelger strat, think Agnes runs out of MP even if Kuja doesn't bother with Reflect, and she can't even safely get Defaults off without dying without a double.
Agnes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - Citan doesn't quite OHKO, but he does heal-lock then double & win easily, and he easily shrugs off an Utsusemi based strategy, he'll double way faster than the counters kill him.  Corpse won't kill him in time.  I guess allowing the Status Amp Assassin Dagger blitz might give this to Agnes, though.
Agnes vs. Wakka (FFX) Open Corpse -> Utsusemi.  Wakka gets 1 turn to remove Utsu (or uh OSMOSE) then 1 turn to Triple Foul Agnes then die.
Agnes vs. Shadow Naoto (P4) - No P4, but pretty grim, I don't think Wind Cleric has any answer to Galgalim Eyes spam, and don't think she can blitz past Galgalim Eyes HP range.  Doesn't help she absolutely must block Silence and toss off the Hermes Sandals.
Agnes vs. Marcello (DQ8) - Double-acting boss with both physical & magic damage.  Wind Cleric MIGHT even survive, but with Waves of Ice to blow off the buffs occasionally, she's stuck using Curaga healing and will run out of MP eventually even despite the MP regen.
Agnes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Agnes MUST be a Desert Ninja, then open Reflect or die horribly for me (I give everyone in TO a turn of MP, so Regent Morne can open with Spiritsurge II).  So...  it's just Regent Morne's horrible physical beatdown game, but he can heal himself (unless Agnes ties up 2 of all her turns on Reflecting Morne too?!) against the Utsusemi counters, and since BD specials penetrate Utsusemi, I'd see Raining Blows as doing the job too.  Of course, by the time he hits that, Buff Up will have Agnes at +50% Defense...  but eh.  He might well run Ninja Agnes out of MP anyway.
Wind Cleric would have a shot if she didn't go second and not be able to Abate Light.
Agnes vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Go Wind Cleric.  Eat Spacial Rend, Curaga -> Protect -> Reflect -> Corpse on turn 1, laugh as Palkia has no way to kill on turn 2 despite being at -3 BP.
Agnes vs. Nel (SO3) - Block ID = Block Freeze to me, but multihit Nel screws up Utsusemi...  huh, not sure about this match.  Nel wasting Agnes's MP is definitely a threat, but she can still spam Curada off just the 30 MP regen as Wind Cleric, and eventually Nel will run out of MP then lose.  I think Agnes wins, very slowly?!  Open to arguments....
Agnes vs. Ernst (S5) - Equip ID blocker, Desert Ninja Utsusemi spam, Corpse if Ernst ever stops removing it.
Agnes vs. Deathevans (BoF2) - Equip ID blocker, slowly win with Wind Cleric.
Agnes vs. Gangrel (FEA) - Gangrel's evasion screws up a Dark Vestal blitz - hilariously a reason to maybe get rid of Convergence so that she doesn't eat counters, but she loses a ton of damage if she does that.  Desert Ninja w/ Hermes Sandals MIGHT not get doubled though, so Utsu spam might work (I'd see that as being relevant vs. a Levin Sword, not Reflect)...  huh.  Open to arguments, if Agnes is doubled she is likely doomed, if she isn't Utsusemi miiiiiiiight save the day.  EDIT: Right, Abate Lightning.

For FF5...  judging from other votes...  I guess people are basically throwing Auto-Haste out?  Fine by me, I suppose...  it feels weird to punish people with a Haste ability, or to overhype Stop duration, even if it's a bit arbitrary.

Faris vs. Chaos (FF1) - ITD damage.  Don't see Great Dragon as all that relevant here, it isn't even Faris's best damage, unless you see her needing a Shield to not die....
Faris vs. Kuja (FF9) - Probably faster.
Faris vs. Citan Uzuki (XG)
Faris vs. Wakka (FFX)
Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8) - nope.jpg
Faris vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Yeah, TO boss immunities aren't bad.
Faris vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Sure, I'll go with antihyping Stop reliability.
Faris vs. Nel (SO3) - Sure, immunes Nel's tricks to a degree.
Faris vs. Ernst (S5)
Faris vs. Deathevans (BoF2) Bone laser'd.
Faris vs. Gangrel (FEA) - If Faris doesn't KO with Rapid Fire, she's still screwed, lightning-halving requires equipping a Shield.  I guess you can see Great Dragon as ignoring counters, but nah.  Anyway I think Gangrel is just tanky enough to take this for me.

Kiss of Blessing is weird.  I vote SNES version myself, and normally I'm fine with respecting bugs (e.g. FF6 MEvade), but...  the immunity-ignoring part is an unusually buggy bug.  Like how it lets you skip NeoExdeath.  That kind of bug I'm less likely to respect, e.g. Relm sketch -> get a ton of free equipment or something.

Krile vs. Chaos (FF1)
Krile vs. Kuja (FF9) - HP-doubling -> stalling?
Krile vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - Don't really buy the evade argument (most of Citan's damage is from Deathblows which require something really special like Id evade) but Berserk might be reasonable...  unless FF5 Haste is seen as stacking with Senki which would be silly.
Krile vs. Wakka (FFX) - Wakka goes first then gets berserk'd out.  The irony.
Krile vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Krile vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Heal-lock, sure.
Krile vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Confuse blocking Berry?  I suppose.
Krile vs. Nel (SO3) - Doesn't care about ID nor MP.
Krile vs. Ernst (S5)
Krile vs. Deathevans (BoF2)
Krile vs. Gangrel (FEA) - Lightning-halving turtle strats are go here, though.

I see Celes as slightly above average speed, no Sneak rings, etc.  This helps her a lot.

Celes vs. Chaos (FF1) - 2x Meteor off better speed, ID isn't likely turn 1 here.
Celes vs. Kuja (FF9) - Meteor pierces Reflect...  although I guess I can see a Kuja 2HKO argument?  Eh, nah, suspect Celes should still 2HKO with Ice3.
Celes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - Vanish.
Celes vs. Wakka (FFX) - Some horrible status.  EDIT: I guess I'll buy Wakka as faster, sure.
Celes vs. Shadow Naoto (P4) - Gets silenced and loses, or enervated & heal-locked?
Celes vs. Marcello (DQ8) - Celes's buff game doesn't really work vs. Waves of Ice.
Celes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Holy-spoiling, Shell.  EDIT: Fine no Shell, but the Holy halving + Flare being ITD should carry the day?  MBlock rate helps too...
Celes vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Status.
Celes vs. Nel (SO3) - More status?
Celes vs. Ernst (S5) - Eaten first.  (Yellow Scarf anyway.)  EDIT: Right, no Yellow Scarf even if it's seen as halving Imp.
Celes vs. Deathevans (BoF2) - Eaten more slowly.
Celes vs. Gangrel (FEA) - Even with an opening Shell (that makes her healing worse!), Celes is under a heck of a lot of pressure here.  Meteor is MT at least, but I don't think it's a OHKO and might get dodged anyway...  maybe?  EDIT: Oh right, I guess Levin Sword counts as Lightning, for all that it totally doesn't matter in-game.  Well then.

Agnes: 7-4
Faris: 4-7
Krile: 7-4
Celes: 8-3
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 07:12:27 PM by SnowFire »

Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2014, 03:15:27 AM »
Agnes vs. Chaos (FF1): Dark Vestral blitz?
Agnes vs. Kuja (FF9): Flare Star had a problem with accuracy? Couple that with the Angelic Ward and it isn't pretty for Kuja. She could use Critical MP recovery (200 MP healed when reduced below 20% HP) to make MP issues less prevelant.
Agnes vs. Wren (PS4): Utsumemi and the passive buffing.
Agnes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG)She can't Corpse her way to victory, here? Or just Status Amp here way up with a weapon.
Agnes vs. Wakka (FFX): Corpse and Utsumemi. Don't view Osmose as an effective source of MP damage either.
Agnes vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Agnes vs. Marcello (DQ8): Even with the passive buffing and such she has no real way out of this... Waves of Ice + Damage should require more than Curada to get rid of... I think...
Agnes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Agnes vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Agnes vs. Nel (SO3): Utsumemi.
Agnes vs. Ernst (S5): Utsumemi and ID immunity.
Agnes vs. Deathevans (BoF2): Yeah.
Agnes vs. Gangrel (FEA)

Faris vs. Chaos (FF1): QUestion is if she can 2HKO with Great Dragon + Physical. I'm guessing not?
Faris vs. Kuja (FF9): Actually looking at Kuja stats he rather sucks.
Faris vs. Wren (PS4): Unless Image got ITE too.
Faris vs. Citan Uzuki (XG): Senki lets him get through Image with Triples. Yikes.
Faris vs. Wakka (FFX): Image. Ribbon/Hermes immune way too much crap.
Faris vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Faris vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Faris vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Faris vs. Nel (SO3): Freeze?
Faris vs. Ernst (S5): Singing Shinobi Swashbuckler Serenades, Soothing the Savage Suikodener.
Faris vs. Deathevans (BoF2): Or here.
Faris vs. Gangrel (FEA)

Krile really really wishes she could get use out of her Haste.
Krile vs. Chaos (FF1): Heal lock.
Krile vs. Kuja (FF9): Double HP and smash the crap out of him.
Krile vs. Wren (PS4): If he tries for big damage she heals out of it. If he goes for small damage she doubles HP and wins off that.
Krile vs. Citan Uzuki (XG): Block the status. (No Dark Matters)
Krile vs. Wakka (FFX): Confuse? Ribbon also which is just silly.
Krile vs. Shadow Naoto (P4): HP Doubling/Heavy typing should make this less nasty.
Krile vs. Marcello (DQ8): Heal lock she can't escape with HP doubling.
Krile vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Krile vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Krile vs. Nel (SO3): Freeze and immune Confuse?
Krile vs. Ernst (S5): ID immunity, HP doubling.
Krile vs. Deathevans (BoF2): And again.
Krile vs. Gangrel (FEA)

Celes vs. Chaos (FF1): Two Nukes shouldn't kill her, nor two physicals...
Celes vs. Kuja (FF9)
Celes vs. Wren (PS4): Vanish.
Celes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG): he has magic to get around Vanish, but status nails him.
Celes vs. Wakka (FFX): Status of her own?
Celes vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Celes vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Celes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Celes vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Celes vs. Nel (SO3): Status of her own.
Celes vs. Ernst (S5): No Scarf!
Celes vs. Deathevans (BoF2): Death and plenty of time to use it.
Celes vs. Gangrel (FEA)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 11:56:00 PM by Pyro »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2014, 04:06:43 AM »
Shell doesn't make Celes' healing worse (I believe that's just FF7 and FFX?). Dunno if it matters. (Also Gangrel absolutely needs you to see the Levin Sword as non-elemental to have a chance there.)

EDIT: Also FF5 Image (unlike FF6) does get ITE. This isn't really relevant against Wren though, as a lot of what he does is magic-based.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 06:54:52 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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DragonKnight Zero

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2014, 05:49:42 AM »
I throw out auto-haste and Freelancer's equip anything feature and limit equips to the character's available jobs.  Among other things, I allow Krile Masamune (and its initiative turn) though mostly overlook it as it makes for a boring dueller.

Faris vs. Chaos (FF1)
Faris vs. Kuja (FF9)  Edit: Kuja is faster?  Well then, splat.
Faris vs. Wren (PS4)  Kneejerk on durability
Faris vs. Citan Uzuki (XG)  Hastes self, spends next five turns breaking images with jabs, then unleashes a fatal Combo on his seventh turn.  No triple turns needed.
Faris vs. Wakka (FFX)
Faris vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Faris vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Faris vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Faris vs. Nel (SO3)
Faris vs. Ernst (S5)
Faris vs. Deathevans (BoF2)
Faris vs. Gangrel (FEA)

Krile vs. Chaos (FF1)
Krile vs. Kuja (FF9)  His counters are what makes him dangerous.  Without them, doesn't have enough pressure to stop Krile's buffing game until she can oneshot him with Man Eater's Jump.
Krile vs. Wren (PS4) Goes for heavy armor.  Will take an age to finish but she'll buff her levels until she has enough power to oneshot with Sword Dance.
Krile vs. Citan Uzuki (XG)  Kneejerk that he can blitz her out before instant death lands even if she optimizes for physical defense.  Could be persuaded otherwise.
Krile vs. Wakka (FFX)
Krile vs. Shadow Naoto (P4)
Krile vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Krile vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Krile vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Krile vs. Nel (SO3)
Krile vs. Ernst (S5)
Krile vs. Deathevans (BoF2)
Krile vs. Gangrel (FEA)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 05:02:20 AM by DragonKnight Zero »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2014, 06:22:12 AM »
Agnes vs. Chaos (FF1): Hmm. Chaos can't OHKO her, but he can certainly 2HKO. So her best damage over two turns is... Little Devil, then Inter x4? That... just barely falls short of KOing Chaos of the 0.92 mdur. Stalling won't work as Chaos will land some sort of status or other, too much of his stuff is reflect-ignoring magic.
Agnes vs. Kuja (FF9): One Flare Star counter and it's over. EDIT: orrr brave combos can get around that. Still a good match but I think Agnes wins, see below.
Agnes vs. Wren (PS4): I... think she can turtle forever here? Not 100% certain.
Agnes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG): Ninja looks like it has just enough PDur to avoid a OHKO. So yeah, Corpse/Utsusemi on a brave-string, dodge Citan's next turn, win. Only way I see Citan getting two turns is if he opens with Haste, but then the same combo still works. Unless you see Citan getting a bonus turn immediately with Haste? Eh nah, Ninja's fast enough to avoid that surely.
Agnes vs. Wakka (FFX): Sure, I'll buy her being faster. (If Corpse isn't silenceable, it doesn't even matter.)
Agnes vs. Marcello (DQ8): I assume he can bludgeon his way past, anyway, with Dispel and all.
Agnes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO): I don't give him a bonus turn, but I don't think that's too big a deal. Agnes can't blitz him ever, and he can stall against her until he gets a Raining Blows of ultimate dooom! To make matters worse I may see Judgement as unreflectable which would be... not good for her.
Agnes vs. Palkia (Pokemon): Palkia has 2HKO damage to both defences, both unreflectable magic and physicals. Doesn't matter, White Mage Agnes isn't OHKOed by either, so heal + Corpse on a brave-string.
Agnes vs. Nel (SO3): I think Utsu stops entire combos to me... but Nel's faster. Well. Probably not enough that Buff Up won't let Agnes catch up before a double.
Agnes vs. Ernst (S5): Ernst needs to waste a turn transforming, which means he gets Corpsed.
Agnes vs. Deathevans (BoF2): Okay yeah Deathevans' damage is too weak for this. He can dispel and drain MP but they don't really overwhelm Agnes anyway, I don't think.
Agnes vs. Gangrel (FEA): I don't see Utsu or Reflect as working against Gangrel... but on the other hand he can be Corpsed (FE bosses don't generally immune ID/status). This then comes down to if Corpse can be countered. Pure status usually can't be in other FEs, but FE13 doesn't say anything on the subject... eh sure, going with other game precedent. So be a White Mage to avoid a one-rounding (Absorb M. Damage may also help?), Corpse, heal, claim victory.

Faris vs. Chaos (FF1): Rapid Fire being ITD is kinda huge here, Faris can heal-lock without even spending MP.
Faris vs. Kuja (FF9): Gets out his ITD 2HKO first.
Faris vs. Wren (PS4): Faris can't 2HKO with anything. But... hmm, I guess you could say Wren is vulnerable to Stop? Freaking Omega is vulnerable to Stop... yeah this feels right to me. Although Wren... could be seen as Heavy, which would make this worthless. Actually that seems fair, Wren very has an "innate boss-like immunities" feel to him. And yeah definitely don't see confuse working, too obviously a "mental" status.
Faris vs. Citan Uzuki (XG): Citan doesn't care about defence here, so yeah he's going for Confuse+Stop blocking. From there he outslugs. If Faris has Image he can get through it. If she goes for evade he turtles through her bad offence.
Faris vs. Wakka (FFX): Blocks every single Wakka status, which makes him quite pathetic, and her damage is ITE. Ouch.
Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8): Should outslug. None of Faris' tricks really bother him.
Faris vs. Brantyn Morne (TO): Faris is a little short of OHKOing. I'm not sure if Brantyn can be stopped, but well songs are clearly magical and we know what he does to that, so it probably doesn't matter. He does nothing first turn to ensure he gets his first real turn before Faris can kill him, then OHKOs her with Spiritsurge II.
Faris vs. Palkia (Pokemon): Palkia goes first and 2HKOs with magic, so Faris has to lock it down with status. Which... well, Palkia will be packing a confuse-immunity berry, so the only option is Stop spam... and yeah I suspect that's not even turn 1 to me, here.
Faris vs. Nel (SO3): Well Image can't lock down Nel properly, so the best hope is Stop... which this time is turn 1, at least! So yeah that works.
Faris vs. Ernst (S5): Ernst can't even use accessories, and he doesn't have MDef/MEvade/etc. Status destroys him.
Faris vs. Deathevans (BoF2): Faris only 6HKOs and has no real stalling tactics, so even Deathevans' crappy offence can claim a win here. I guess she could try for status, but yeah that's pretty dicy.
Faris vs. Gangrel (FEA): Oh dear.

Krile vs. Chaos (FF1): Nuke does over 2/3 of Krile's HP, so none of her tricks work here. I'm not sure if I allow Kiss of Blessing to work on berserk-immunes (probably not, GBA feels like the "right" version to vote on these days), but even if it does Chaos physicals are too good I think.
Krile vs. Kuja (FF9): Surely I respect FF9 speed enough to see Kuja above 140%, which is all he needs here.
Krile vs. Wren (PS4): Doubles her max HP so that Wren can't scare her much, then outheals/stalls/boosts her level/etc. I guess she'll never do better than a 3HKO against him, but that's enough since he'll be doing way less against her, and eh the healing mix is dirt cheap (Potion + Hi-Potion IIRC?) so she should outlast Wren's Recover with that.
Krile vs. Citan Uzuki (XG): Evade's a bit of a problem for Citan, I think. Once Krile doubles her max HP she's only 4HKOed and dodges a lot between Main Gauche + Shield + Shiradori. Obviously Citan is super-fast post-Haste but I don't think it's enough. He could run her out of resources I guess? Though she can arguably shut down all his hyper deathblows with float + the three element-absorbing mixes, too... yeah I think this is right.
Krile vs. Wakka (FFX): Don't think Wakka can outright null confuse, and he has to. The irony of him being felled by resistance-ignoring status.
Krile vs. Marcello (DQ8): See Chaos.
Krile vs. Brantyn Morne (TO): Doubles her max HP before Brantyn can start attacking... but can he heal-lock her? ... yeah surely. And he'll double eventually. So Krile pretty much needs status here. I don't recall if Brantyn immuned confuse, which is what this match comes down to, it seems. EDIT: Oh, I do note bosses as immuning Charm. Yeah that covers that.
Krile vs. Palkia (Pokemon): Palkia blocks one shot of confuse or gets wrecked by that, but doing so drops his damage to the point where doubling HP makes the second shot survivable (he gets hit by this harder than most, due to his unique Lustrous Orb). So open with Spacial Rend, Krile doubles HP, Palkia uses Heal Block, Krile... is still screwed here actually? Palkia only needs two more turns to finish him off, and any one turn can't do anything useful to him.
Krile vs. Nel (SO3): I see Stop as analogous to Freeze, I think, so yeah Krile blocks it. So this is kinda like Krile vs. Wren, except that Nel's resources are deeper... but she's less durable
Krile vs. Ernst (S5): ID immunity.
Krile vs. Deathevans (BoF2): ID immunity and turtling. This takes a while.
Krile vs. Gangrel (FEA): I imagine confuse wrecks Gangrel. And she barely avoids a OHKO even if I don't see Krile resisting Levin Sword's element.

Celes vs. Chaos (FF1): No Meteor/Flare for me, so Celes damage here is kinda terribad. 4HKOs at the very best. Chaos has lots of damage with Nuke, too much for Cure, and I can't imagine he fails to outslug. Especially with Cure 4 in there.
Celes vs. Kuja (FF9): Oh look someone with real MEvade so I can agree with Kuja accuracy problems. That said I do see her being 2HKOed, so I think this is hopeless. She doesn't like Reflect either.
Celes vs. Wren (PS4): Mmm sure. PS4 has nothing remotely transformation-like, and there's no reason to think that a robot would be harder to turn into an imp than anything else. Hell you can imp a notable robot boss in FF6!
Celes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG): Citan actually can break Vanish, by using a useless utility spell on her (yeah, those can target enemies). That said he gets Imped.
Celes vs. Wakka (FFX): Faster, Sleep Attack spam does its thing. Not sure why people are kneejerking he's faster? Even with Sneak Rings removed from the average, Celes is 100.4%, Wakka is 101% first turn.
Celes vs. Marcello (DQ8): Marcello's offence here isn't too impressive, only 5HKOing with each physical and facing 1/3 evasion... so he does 30% per round or so. Still he has an answer to Protect/Haste, forcing Celes to try and just 3HKO him. Can she? Yeah no, not with him resisting ice.
Celes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO): Celes is reduced to physicals here. Brantyn can't hit her that hard... but hard enough, he still 3HKOs, and is super-accurate which is a huge help. Celes can 4HKO with physicals, not too bad! But yeah Brantyn is faster and needs the same number of turns to kill. Haste doesn't pay off in time.
Celes vs. Palkia (Pokemon): Yeah I think Imp is still turn 1 here.
Celes vs. Nel (SO3): And here.
Celes vs. Ernst (S5): And here. (Ernst can't use the Yellow Scarf.)
Celes vs. Deathevans (BoF2): Berserk is gonna wreck Evans when it lands. He's status resistant but not that status resistant, she should have better accuracy with Berserk than he has with Death, for sure. Actually... hmm. Evans is better off going for offence until Berserk lands... it's probably turn 3. So he gets in two Coldbreaths then a berserked physical... which shouldn't quite kill, even if it hits. Of course at this point he should outpace her healing... maybe? Actually, it's really close. Okay, never mind, Celes goes for Haste, which he can't Dispel or face a turn discrepency as she reapplies it, and after Haste she can keep up with Coldbreath with healing, and once she lands berserk she can cast Protect. MP could be an issue here I guess? Or I could just allow Vanish and make this a curbstomp. I'm on the fence with that.
Celes vs. Gangrel (FEA): Sure, let's call him lightning damage. The animation is fairly clear I suppose.

Agnes 9-3
Celes 7-5
Krile 7-5
Faris 5-7

Krile's borderline, Agnes is Godlike, Faris is Heavy? Maybe. I may have been slightly too generous to Agnes with averages I suppose.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 04:26:46 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2014, 06:17:29 PM »
Agnés Oblige vs. Chaos (FF1) - Yeah, even 79% PC HP Agnés can't really do off her Arcanist setup, and she doesn't go first unless she runs Ninja. Tough luck.
Agnés Oblige vs. Kuja (FF9) - I don't think Kuja even -bothers- with Reflect. If he lands one Star Flare counter, it's over, and the nature of Agnés' damage pretty much -guarantees- this will happen. EDIT: RIGHT, Brave combos.
Agnés Oblige vs. Wren (PS4) - I'm pretty sure Agnés can last essentially forever against Wren. If nothing else, equipping the buffing passive means she'll eventually never have to worry about getting lapped under the stalling setups.
Agnés Oblige vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - As long as Agnés can setup to survive two Citan turns in a row with Ritualism set, she has this. I personally think going White Mage => Curaga/Corpse/Protect x2 Brave string works wonders here, and it's probably not even the only option she has.
Agnés Oblige vs. Wakka (FFX) - Ninja Agnés is faster, sure. Open with Corpse, completely fail to care about the rest of the fight, since Utsusemi spam takes care of things past that.
Agnés Oblige vs. Shadow Naoto Shirogane (P4) - If I recall correctly, Mute Ray's silence ignores immunity. That's -very- bad for Agnés. Being Almighty also kills any argument for Reflect working on it.
Agnés Oblige vs. Marcello (DQ8) - I s'pose. Agnés might've had a chance if she had Abate Wind in this setup.
Agnés Oblige vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - I'll bite.
Agnés Oblige vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Pretty much the same deal as Citan, but easier due to Palkia being considerably slower. Support Amp should help things out as well. Heal Block could be a point in Palkia's favor, but Agnés only needs one turn to set herself up to inevitable survival - it's a turn he can't really afford.
Agnés Oblige  vs. Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Ninja with White Magic + Buff Up and Steady MP Recovery pretty much puts this in Agnés' court. I think I agree with NEB's kneejerk on combo strings as well, since multidamage figure attacks like dualwielded physicals make a single check against Utsu.
Agnés Oblige vs. Ernst (S5) - To make things worse for Ernst, I'm pretty sure I allow Safety Rings for -this- BD setup (lets me fully agree with full party availability).
Agnés Oblige  vs. Deathevans (BoF2) - I don't think Deathevans can make ANY sort of leeway with his main trick neutered.
Agnés Oblige  vs. Gangrel (FEA) - I'm not really sure why Snowfire sees this fight as so problematic. Agnés gets Abate Lightning and this alone makes Gangrel unhappy (he doesn't one-round White Mage Agnés to begin with, the halving means he doesn't even two-round). Corpse, then, takes care of things.

9-4. First thing we learn about these multijob class setups: it's easy to underrate their flexibility. Agnés doesn't really do high-profile blitzing, but the buffing setups and Arcanist options hand her interesting ways to pressure her opposition while evading locks herself, and make her work far beyond her simple damage spoiling (which, honestly, isn't really her premier game as far as I see). If you can't neuter Agnés very early under her builds, you're in for a lot of trouble.

Faris Scherwiz vs. Chaos (FF1) - Faris be faster and 2HKO with Great Dragon+physical. Given the limitations I hand Chaos with the full healing (I don't allow him to spam it - I let him use it any time he wants, but if he uses it, I force him to use something else for eight turns, so he can't just play heal-locking games), this should work out. And nothing Chaos has lets him win decisively against Faris in one turn.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Kuja (FF9) - Kuja's faster and doesn't get OHKOed. Them's the breaks.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Wren (PS4) - You could argue Faris attempting an ID blitz with a Killer Bow, but that's turn three at best, deals awful damage and doesn't take into account the fact Wren 2HKOs her ass. Her status and antiphysical game also do nothing to slow him down. Overpowering him, of course, is right out: she 4HKOs him.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - Image doesn't really help against Citan's style of physical damage and he 2HKOs Faris as it stands.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Wakka (FFX) - Well, this is pretty simple. At worst, Image+Stop shenanigans do their magic and she also mocks Evade & Counter.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Shadow Naoto Shirogane (P4) - Faris doesn't really do durable bosses - and Shadow Naoto may be a Godlike anyway, given how brutal immunity-ignoring P4 silence is against the skillset-reliant (not that it matters against Faris).
Faris Scherwiz vs. Marcello (DQ8) - Yeah no, Faris doesn't have the durability for this. See Shadow Naoto, but uglier.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Uh I think. Spiritsurge is pretty nasty and Faris doesn't have much to fall back on once Great Dragon's out.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - I think? I have my doubts Faris can keep Palkia from getting a second turn, since she doesn't 2HKO him and probably goes last.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Nel Zelpher (SO3) - See above, methinks. Image doesn't help against Nel's offense type either, and her MP busting can do a hell of a number on Faris' damage. If you see SO3's paralysis blocker nailing Romeo's Ballad, this becomes a slaughter. EDIT: Nvm, underrated Stop duration here.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Ernst (S5) - I think? This is pretty definite if Faris goes first, since Ernst has no recourse against status and Faris -should- 2HKO him.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Deathevans (BoF2) - Faris needed healing here.
Faris Scherwiz vs. Gangrel (FEA) - 2HKO ITE physical against Gangrel. This is so ugly.

5-8. Unsurprisingly, Faris feels like the weakest of the build PCs in this run. The Earth Crystal jobset just doesn't allow for the level of gross flexibility sported by the rest of the cast, though above average speed ITE 2HKO with a few status and physical spoiling options certainly make for a pretty good Heavy. Some of the more esoteric options also saw use here (OPB Great Dragon being determinant against Chaos? Well, I never).

Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Chaos (FF1) - nope.avi. Crack is turn two, Krile goes last and Kiss of Blessing is asking to get eaten with Chaos' physicals not being bad as is.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Kuja (FF9) - Kuja. Has. No. Physical. Damage. At. ALL. Kiss of Blessing = GG.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Wren (PS4) - Krile can win the attrition war pretty well. Goliath Tonic => X-Potion => Protect Drink => Kiss of Blessing => YESSIR.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - If I see Berserk interfering with Citan's ability to use DBs, Krile wins. Otherwise, I'm not sure she can do much of anything. That said... I think I do today.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Wakka (FFX) - Wakka doesn't have much of an answer to Ribbon and Hermes Sandals. Load Iainuki, go to town.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Shadow Naoto Shirogane (P4) - Unlike Agnés, Krile doesn't really fear Mute Ray to me, and Shadow Naoto kinda sucks against a buffer/healer at high HP. Setup with Goliath Tonic and Protect Drink, apply Kiss of Blessing, go to town and win verrrrrrrrrrry slowly.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Marcello (DQ8) - Foiled by dispel once again. Kiss of Blessing is way too dangerous here.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Holy crap, Brantyn turn one damage is trash. Kiss of Blessing => stall all day works.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Not so sure. I think Palkia 2HKOs Krile through Goliath Tonic and even Kiss of Blessing likely gets her killed (lap with Berserked Struggle x2, the end). Heal Block also puts a damper on possible stalling strategies and Scary Face isn't fun either. Krile may be able to win by playing her cards right, but this is a pretty tall order (granted, if I see Haste as being useful in spite of Hermes Sandals, this likely gets easier for her). EDIT: For Confuse shenanigans: Krile needs to use Lamia's Kiss twice, since the first gets Berry'd away. It DOES hurt Palkia's offense, though, I'd have to check if he can 2HKO through Goliath Tonic with that... but eh.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Berserked Star Ocean 3 basic physicals. This doesn't outslug anything ever.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Ernst (S5) - Berserked Ernst physicals aren't as bad as SO3 berserked physicals, but they're not scary for Krile either. Not that she uses -those- against Ernst.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Deathevans (BoF2) - Deathevans against an ID-immune healer. That's not working.
Krile Mayer Baldesion vs. Gangrel (FEA) - Resist Thunder, autopilot strats are go.

10-3. This is -weird-. Kiss of Blessing saw huge utility in this field, which is kinda gross considering how much of an offensive boost for the opposition it represents on average. Not sure this field is quite representative of Krile's worth, but Chemist skillsets -do- provide an awful lot of niche spoiling even running off solely storebought junk. And strong stalling skillsets with spoiling tricks tend to work really well, especially with NEB's equipment loadouts.

Celes Chere vs. Chaos (FF1) - Well, nowadays I see Celes as above average speed! Problem: don't think I allow Celes Flare/Meteor anymore unless she learns either at a reasonable level (I'm certain Meteor isn't reasonable, Flare I'm not so sure).
Celes Chere vs. Kuja (FF9) - Reflect gives Celes all sorts of trouble.
Celes Chere vs. Wren (PS4) - Hmmm. How inclusive do I see Wren's status immunity today? I s'pose I'm amenable to seeing Imp hit today.
Celes Chere vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - Vanish at worst, Imp under my consideration today.
Celes Chere vs. Wakka (FFX) - Pure speed tiebreak.
Celes Chere vs. Shadow Naoto Shirogane (P4) - Mute Ray.
Celes Chere vs. Marcello (DQ8) - Celes doesn't have the healing for this, methinks.
Celes Chere vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Well, if I see Brantyn as berserk-vulnerable, Celes has this pretty much stat. But not TOO inclined to make that call right now.
Celes Chere vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Imp.
Celes Chere vs. Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Imp.
Celes Chere vs. Ernst (S5) - Berserk.
Celes Chere vs. Deathevans (BoF2) - Celes MBlock and MDef make Deathevans' Death frankly suck, enough that I think she can outslug him. Still rather close, though.
Celes Chere vs. Gangrel (FEA) - Shell => holy crap Gangrel's hopeless against Celes. Alternatively, the status vulnerability is bound to be unfun.

7-6. Well, less close to Agnés' power level than I thought, though still not that far away. Granted, they're very different duellers.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 02:03:44 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2014, 08:04:15 PM »
For Citan vs. Agnes, it can go either way, but in defense of Citan, BD enemies can hypothetically get 8x turns off after being Corpsed, and Corpse doesn't really care whether Arcanist is faster or slower than her opposition, so I'm more a fan of a "counts down at the end of each BD round" approach.  Which sometimes is *good* for Agnes of course.

Jo'ou: I plain forgot about Gangrel's damage being Lightning when I first wrote up the votes, hence thinking his match vs. Celes was close, too.  Also, Agnes's passive Buff Up only gets offense / defense, it doesn't get Speed.  (Although Agnes CAN buff her speed if she sets Singing and spends 1/4 of her turns on it...  usually not worth it.)

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2014, 01:48:10 AM »
Agnes has the buffs from Conjurer too. +50% speed for 10 turns (20 with that one skill to double buff durations).

For Agnes vs. Kuja, Flare Star can miss, isn't that much damage anyway (Highish 3HKO?), is subject to Angelic Ward (Even Set damage is in Bravely Default, Angelic Ward is awesome), and Agnes can store turns to blow past Flare Star Counters with Curada/Curaga after doing damage. And she has Dispel for Reflect too.



Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2014, 01:51:17 AM »
Faris vs. Chaos (FF1) - Sigh, DoS Chaos actually having HP.
Faris vs. Kuja (FF9) - Sigh, Kuja probably isn't *that* frail.
Faris vs. Wren (PS4) - See Elfboy.
Faris vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - Um.
Faris vs. Wakka (FFX) - Blocks the worst of Triple Foul and mocks the evade game.
Faris vs. Shadow Naoto (P4) - Shadow Naoto's a bit too durable for this.
Faris vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Honestly with my harsher HP scaling she probably OHKOs him, physicals may not be where his durability lies but he is above average at physical defense.
Faris vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Probably.
Faris vs. Ernst (S5) - Status, I guess.  Ernst goes first but it hardly matters.
Faris vs. Gangrel (FEA) - lol rapidfire

Krile vs. Chaos (FF1) - Think so at any rate
Krile vs. Kuja (FF9) - lol kiss of blessing
Krile vs. Wren (PS4) - Superior stalling
Krile vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - Abstain.
Krile vs. Wakka (FFX) - Yep.
Krile vs. Shadow Naoto (P4) - Yep.
Krile vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - So hey Brantyn how's being unable to use magic or finishers working out for you
Krile vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Sure.
Krile vs. Ernst (S5) - Yep.
Krile vs. Gangrel (FEA) - Survives a double and proceeds to make him very sad.

Celes vs. Chaos (FF1) - Yeeeep.
Celes vs. Kuja (FF9) - Sigh, Reflect.
Celes vs. Wren (PS4) - Don't think I'm ameniable to seeing Imp working against Wren as Snow is.
Celes vs. Citan Uzuki (XG) - What Citan can do about Vanish:
Celes vs. Wakka (FFX) - Speed tiebreak, sure.
Celes vs. Shadow Naoto (P4) - What Celes can do about Mute Ray:
Celes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - You can't hit TO bosses with Charm for the most part so I'm not gonna give Berserk any favors here.  She kind of needs Flare to stand a chance and I think that's a bit out of reach.
Celes vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - Imp
Celes vs. Ernst (S5) - Imp
Celes vs. Gangrel (FEA) - lol
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 01:54:19 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2014, 02:07:14 AM »
I've never personally seen Flare Star miss, so that must require MEvade, and Agnes has no MEvade. It should also 2HKO Agnes even if you use the average with all the HP boosts, and I don't. Thaat said the Angelic Ward point is a good one, I forgot that that works against fixed damage. I guess she runs White Mage + Conjurer for speed buffing, and does what you propose with attack+heal on a double? Of course Kuja will Flare Star her every turn so she can only stock for that on turns she naturally doubles. FF9 boss speed is a headache but I'm not too likely to see a TB character doubling him very often... still yeah there's a case there. Curada should mostly keep up, it looks like, so she's not running out of MP. Yeah, that's... probably a vote change.


The Corpse thing is a valid point, but I really don't like setting anything to "rounds" which aren't something that exists any longer in the DL! Buuut I guess you could make a case that "if you have some sort of ability to give you bonus actions, you still get those before Corpse kills you" which would give Citan two turns with Haste... which I guess is enough, unless Protectx2+heal+Corpse buys her the durability she needs to withstand the next two Citan turns? ... yeah probably not, not with her wretched base pdur.

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2014, 02:13:04 AM »
Flare Star does check MEvade. Any standard endgame greave will be giving a chance to evade Flare Star since anything that checks MEvade I think just has a 100% base hit rate which endgame easy to get greaves probably put at about 85% hit rate on average (harder to get ones will boost that up a little).

That said, with HP Boosts factored into FF 9 averages, Kuja just fails to 2HKO Agnes. He does 46.5% HP and she has 94% of average per the topic.
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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 03:57:00 AM »
I just checked both the FF6 stat topic and Meeple's Natural Magic Game faq, and neither list Celes as getting Shell. I think you guys are mixing it up with Safe, which she does get at L22? Doesn't swing many matches (if any at all), thankfully.

I'll edit in votes later, after I get a chance to do some proper research.

Krile curbstomps Palkia, for one non-obvious match. Lamia's Kiss is 100% confuse off storebought materials, Palkia can either kill itself with non-confuse restoring special attacks or kill itself with super-effective Dragon Claws or bring in Slash as its only damage move and do absolutely nothing versus her healing.

Edit: No FF5 Ribbons or statusblocking berries for me. I'm also a bit harsher on FF5 weaponry then the stat topic, but not to the point where Faris is stuck with Enhancers or something like that.

Agnes vs. Chaos (FF1) - DoS Chaos has gobs of HP, so plenty of time to land Quake.
Agnes vs. Wren (PS4) - Man, I never even used Corpse in-game but apparantly it is super-cheesy in a duel.
Agnes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Agnes vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Agnes vs. Gangrel (FEA)


Faris vs. Chaos (FF1) - No idea how good DoS Chaos' damage is off the top of my head. Strong kneejerk is that he wins this, but no vote.
Faris vs. Wren (PS4)
Faris vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - If Elfboy thinks Faris doesn't OHKO, then she definately won't to me.
Faris vs. Palkia (Pokemon) - My kneejerk is that 99% base confuse rate is only about 75% in the DL... can Palkia's stats knock that below turn 1? Feeling yes at the moment. These FF5 setups all feel kinda cheesy to me in the DL so I don't feel bad about making close decisions against them.
Faris vs. Gangrel (FEA)

Krile vs. Chaos (FF1) - This one I'm leaning Krile but maybe I'm way underestimating DoS Chaos damage, so abstain.
Krile vs. Wren (PS4)
Krile vs. Brantyn Morne (TO)
Krile vs. Palkia (Pokemon)

Celes vs. Chaos (FF1) - Slugfests are not Celes' forte.
Celes vs. Wren (PS4) - People more familiar with PS4 mechanics seem to vote this way, so...
Celes vs. Brantyn Morne (TO) - Pretty much comes down to whether I allow Celes aftergame spells, which I'm not sure about.
Celes vs. Palkia (Pokemon)
Celes vs. Gangrel (FEA)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 01:33:51 AM by hinode »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2014, 03:23:23 PM »
Allowing a confuse-nulling berry seems like it might tilt that strategy, but I need to look at that match more closely.

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2014, 04:29:27 AM »
Threw in the rest of my votes. One thing I'll point out is that Ernst can't actually equip any of S5's status-resisting gear, which costs him a couple fights here.

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Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Heavy
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2014, 08:30:43 PM »
Edited in votes for FF5 myself now that there's Elf to steal from.

Silly me, forgetting Conjuring->Hresvelger...  that makes Kuja's Reflect not an issue at least (since in BD the faster dueler gets first dibs on unloading when Reflect expires).   But I'm not sure that flips my vote, for all that FF9 speed is a headache.  Curada turns gain 3 MP overall (30-27), Curaga every-other-turn is 0 MP (60-60) but Hresvelger is like 90 MP, so Agnes is losing ground unless she's racking up doubles, and my low TB speed cap means she really isn't, so she'd run out of MP first.  The better argument is not getting 2HKO'd by Flare Star...  Default -> Curaga means eating 1.8x Flare Star damage to me rather than 2x to the ignore-Default-damage-reduction interp (.6 damage the Default turn, 1.2 damage the non-Default turn), so Flare Star needs to do 55% of Agnes's HP rather than 50%.  HOWEVER, Absorb M. Damage doing its thing, and perhaps not healing when Angelic Ward triggers on Default turns to sneak in an extra Default...  maybe it's enough.  But considering that White Robe Agnes kills pretty slowly with 80 MP Holies, she really does need to be MP-positive in the long run here, although ROD SPECIALS are some MP-less offense at least.  Eh, I'll keep it as a Kuja vote, but it's close.