imageRegister

Author Topic: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod  (Read 8837 times)

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2017, 12:07:11 AM »
Mt. Nibel - Fire2-All largely solves randoms, which I can now use fairly liberally thanks to being able to actually afford ethers now.

Materia Keeper (1 reset) - okay this seems manageable so long as nothing goes *MATERIALIZE* well okay i have 2 pcs now i just *HASTE* well fuck you too buddy.  Second time doesn't actually go much better except this time I set Earth-Magic Counter and barely pull through with Red turtling with Hi-Potions and an Elixir.  Seriously though being irreversibly down a PC is a little mean considering Haste and the 2HKOs that can be flying around.

Palmer - Is still Palmer but at least he can force PD use now?  The evasion is cute.

Wutai Area - Thunder Beak or w/e MT does add up here so I wind out noping out of half the fights I get into here, though at least some of the enemies drop X-Potions for my trouble.

Rapps - Well Aero3 hurts at least.  Granted a shitbrat stole all your materia so it would suck if the fight were actually hard.

Pagoda (something like 5 resets in total) - Probably should've waited a bit on this but w/e.  Highlights include  getting stuck on the third fight due to having problems sufficiently powering through the draining while being 3HKO before setting Poison-Added effect, getting wrecked by Trine, and then turtling with Hi-Potions and using only Greased Lightning against Godo because counter curing below half HP made other routes to progress difficult.

Next time, finding the plot again, surely a 90s villain won't go on about ethics in videogame journalism his mother

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2017, 06:29:03 AM »
Gold Saucer - oh hey the plot hi.  Also I do Mog House and some shopping I forgot to do.

Temple of the Ancients - get knocked into pit, the ancient dragon pincer is somewhat rude but I manage.

Red Dragon + Blue Dragon (1 reset) - Blue Dragon Breath is p. annoying with its added paralysis oops I killed Red Dragon first and now I'm getting 2HKO'd okay let's not run into that next time.  POIZN continues to be a friend

Demon Wall (3 resets) - Rocks and THE DEMON RUSH are brutal, Cave-in isn't much fun either, thank god Sephy throws that Barrier materia now instead of DESTRUCT, but I still get wrecked repeatedly by people dying at bad times and not really being able to properly recover.  Attempt #4 I actually manage to time slots correctly and tear off a good chunk of HP which helps avoid drowning.

Sleeping Forest - Oh that's the enemy that counters magic with Comet ok that was amusing let's not do that again.

Jenova LIFE - Well I had Leviathan-Elemental and that Water Ring you literally got like 15 minutes ago so there's really not much to comment on.  Cleansing Wave is cute I guess?

Next time, DISC 2

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8133
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2017, 01:35:33 AM »
Kalm - Oh hey you can control Sephiroth now, that's neat. And since healing is limited you kinda have to be awake during these fights maybe? A bit? Drain is a bailout if you get in too many at worst, I suppose. Still, hey, fun.

Minor issue that doesn't matter too much: you can use Radiance from the menu outside of battle. It targets allies but has no effect (doesn't even cost MP).


Choco-Mog and Matra Magic get big MP increases and enemies are better and hey they're still great moves. Mithril Mines is relatively uneventful, I run Magic Counter Sleep for a while for tempo.


Bottomswell - So I set up for ranged damage and magic and figure "what are the odds I'll need to buy Cornucopias", RIP me. Actually I almost win but eventually with everyone mini'd and my resources largely spent I screw up and die. Second try we bring Tifa back for smashies. I cast Berserk once I don't think she'll get another limit. And I actually have Cornucopias this time. Death counters in a game with FF7's "lol you get no exp if you get killed by one" remain stupid but again I don't actually suffer for this.


JENOVA*Birth - Freeze certainly hurts, triplecasting that with two gravity spells is something I see a lot and it's difficult to keep up with. Then she runs out of MP. I forget that you can heal stop which makes this hairier than it should be; once I remember that helps. Red's Lunatic High and Tifa's L1s both get a nice workout here.

On that note Cloud's limits feel like they may be a bit underpowered now? Barret has range, Tifa has power, Aeris has healing, Red has MT haste. Cloud currently feels like I'm way less excited to get his limit than other PCs, at least when the enemy blocks paralysis; they're a melee fighter's limits but he's not really that wonderful a melee fighter. Really looking forward to getting Blade Beam since that'll synergise with back-row magery.

-I'm not sure Atomic Scissors really deserves to be 0 slots? I was kinda interested in it until I saw that. You already give up range for it... granted, that's true of Cannon Ball as well. This is judging it as a storebought to be clear, since I am all fuck.dat to rare steals in this game.

Quote
Sandbagging the Rufus Sendoff ceremony is no longer optimal.

I respectfully disagree, I'm pretty sure? Nerfed HP Plus feels less interesting/useful to me at this point than a six-slot Cloud weapon. (This is based on Laggy telling me that you get a Force Stealer as the #2 prize now. I wanted that. :( )


Currently on Mt. Corel, first place with randoms worth talking about in a while! But I'll save that for when I'm done. I am currently running Counter-Steal which is kinda fun; definitely approve of increased availability for blue materia.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2017, 02:41:29 AM »
I respectfully disagree, I'm pretty sure? Nerfed HP Plus feels less interesting/useful to me at this point than a six-slot Cloud weapon. (This is based on Laggy telling me that you get a Force Stealer as the #2 prize now. I wanted that. :( )

Is lying to players about things that change difficulty of hard mode hacks the new meta of hard mode hacks???????????
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1145
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2017, 10:14:22 PM »
Bit of an overall compilation of wishlist/proposed changes for Richard, including ones already noted in the thread:

- Up Cloud's Buster Sword from 18 to 22 Attack (to make Cloud's physical game actually viable in frontrow as opposed to being completely inferior to magic for the entirety of Midgar)
- Change the very first treasure chest in Reactor 1 with a Phoenix Down to contain 3-5 Phoenix Downs (to mitigate the pdown shortage that people tend to experience in Midgar, and give a starting stockpile; alternatively alter starting item quantities if this is possible)
- Change drop rate of Phoenix Downs on random encounters in Trail of Blood section to 100% (since you can't buy any before the boss gauntlet)
- Change Hundred Gunner to be neutral to Bolt as opposed to null (to address NEB's concern that setting Bolt as the only offensive spell renders a PC potentially useless)
- For Rufus' sendoff ceremony, add all previous tier rewards to higher tiers (so you don't actually lose anything for performing better and we can skip the question of who values Force Stealer or HP Plus more)
- Remove Dyne's Holy weakness
- Add Added Effect as a Bone Village dig if it is missed in Cave of the Gi (to prevent it from being permanently missable)
- Replace Mind Source given by NPC in Nibelheim with another item (Pdown???)
- Please check if Blue Light on Jenova LIFE is Ice-elemental (should be, but Random reported it being Water still)

More general suggestions:
- Stock up Materia shops to use all available slots (as per NEB's feedback) to avoid backtracking to get specific materia
- Up Barret's base accuracy from 90% to 95%? (general sentiment is that he feels a bit lacking and this in particular feels annoying to deal with when using him)


This is mostly to NEB, but re: Barret's early weapon options, e.g. Cannon Ball and Atomic Scissors. You actually can just run Cannon Ball as a backrow weapon as it offers more slots than Assault Gun and gives Mag +5. Atomic Scissors is pretty overpowered if you do steal it early (I know you don't ever care for that yourself but there are certainly playstyles that do nab those early on, and it's an easy to find encounter with no real risk of dying), and its placement at Junon is more of an afterthought than anything. Perfectly skippable if you do deign to play Barret backrow style due to Cannon Ball anyway. If it wasn't stealable I could certainly see the argument for adding a slot or two on it.

In general I am finding that NEB and Random favor conservative backrow setup on Cloud and in general much more than I did, but I had the advantage of having foreknowledge of what to expect from enemies so that makes sense. That said I would definitely lean towards rewarding/encouraging frontrow play on chars where both rows are viable since it is the riskier option by default, whether by making frontrow weapons more attractive or whatever.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Tonfa

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 866
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2017, 10:51:55 PM »
(general sentiment is that he feels a bit lacking and this in particular feels annoying to deal with when using him)

Re: this sentiment, I'd like people who have had a chance to play to offer their thoughts on all PCs they have used/not used and reasons for why, as well as thoughts on power level.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8133
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2017, 11:27:00 PM »
re Atomic Scissors:

Atomic Scissors is stolen like... what, one boss and approximately a dozen random encounters prior to them being storebought? It's not that big a gap. If it had the Striking Staff's availability I'd agree with you, but as is, nope. It's stolen when the competition is the storebought Cannon Ball which is only 13 less power and actually has material slots.

The zero-slot weapons already present in FF7 (Nail Bat, etc.) had considerably larger power leads on their slotted competition, especially if you skipped Wutai, and even then many people don't use them, or only use them for Demon Wall.

Atomic Scissors badly needs something. Whether that's another ~10 power, long range, or materia slots, I dunno, but as is it's a significant part of what I felt like the game telling me not to use Barret post-Midgar and prior to getting the W Machine Gun, since Tifa does front-row brawling better and literally everyone does magic better.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Archmage

  • Laggy's Post-marketing Surveillance Team
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2017, 12:46:06 AM »
Going to take brief notes on stuff. I wasn't originally going to do so. Everything up to about Wall Market is from memory because I wasn't at that time.

Reactor: Ran from a fight because of berserk. Did not attack while the tail's up because I know Laggy was involved in boss design. Five minutes was just right, tense.

Copypasta Reactor: I thought I was going to wipe to air buster, but didn't. Ended with Cloud dead.

Sewer Surfin': One wipe. Two people died to Final Attack: Comet 2. I only had two phoenix downs. FML. Managed to limp through this section anyhow, mostly ran from fights, raised one person, and then my two surviving PCs got to go to...

Train Graveyard: I ran into the rarest possible encounters multiple times, according to Laggy, and got my ass handed to me. I managed to steal the guard stick and ran from the rest of the fights because I had two dead PCs.

Sector 7 "Pizza" Support: Five wipes to Reno. I spent all my money before this section. First Reno attempt is a hilarious mess in which I spend all my time breaking pyramids and accomplishing nothing. It is convenient that you can steal softs from the enemies here! I actually needed some advice from Laggy to get past the boss, I wasn't making good use of setup mechanics and was not handling pyramids well. I think I ultimately would've figured it out, but it would've taken several more attempts.

Shinra Building: Stealth is  for chumps. If making Barrett seem like the most useful character at this phase of the game was a design goal, you nailed it. WARNING BOARD OMG. Elevator guards were surprisingly durable. I think there's a limit to how hard Hojo's Science Project can be considering the length of the scene you have to rewatch if you lose. One wipe, which was mostly a scouting run that allowed me to figure out the fight (I blew several turns using Sense); once I knew what was going on it wasn't bad.

Spent way too much time to steal two carbon bangles and a hardedge. Soldier: 3rd class dudes totally deserve the respect they get in the fluff now, holy crap.

Elevator boss: First attempt was foiled by Barrett and Red basically dying simultaneously right at the phase transition. Going into phase two with two dead people is unworkable. Second attempt was fine, although I do think phase one is a bit grindy. That thing has a lot of HP.

President Junior: This was a fun fight and there are clearly multiple ways to win it.

Highway Machine: Straightforward. Another fight that can't actually be that hard because having to replay the prior sequence is annoying. I'm pretty sure you can still lose if you aren't taking it seriously.

So far everything is engaging (you cannot autobattle your way through stuff, which is a low bar to clear, but we are comparing it to vanilla FF7). Bosses have been entertaining. Earlygame Cloud's physical is total garbage, which might be intended, but even if so...wow. Upon reflection, I cannot stress how glad I was that I took the time to steal his weapon upgrade in the Shinra building, although I'm sure the Rufus fight could've been handled completely with magic; motor ball just would've taken longer without lightning elemental hardedge physicals.

Earlygame Tifa hits like a wet noodle. Earlygame Barrett is kind of a monster. I don't think I've ever been so glad to have him in my party.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 12:47:45 AM by Archmage »
"That which can be destroyed by the truth should be." ~P.C. Hodgell

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2017, 03:36:22 AM »
Oh right, Disc 2 happened, I should throw an update together.

Forgotten Capital - SQUIRELLS throwing rocks for OHKO damage.  I spend far too much time on a single screen trying to get a chest.

Gaea Cliffs - Very lengthy, also full of of things that vomit poison and follow that up with ID on their physical.  I blow through like half my stock of ethers just to not deal with losing limit gauge and needing to revive people.  I also nearly wipe to a Malboro before hitting one of the save points, that would've been pretty annoying.

Schizo (1 reset) - So he kind of hurts, which isn't helped by not using Barrier/Mbarrier, nothing about the fight that was actually too bad though.

Jenova DEATH - 60 seconds to live eh.  I don't really set up well for this but at the very least I had Death Sentence blocking on Red (which I had there ages ago for... some reason) and it doesn't do a whole lot of damage on its own (granted, Doomsday also adds Dual) so remembering that I actually have options here (read as: I blow a Megalixir because Cloud and Red run out of MP and everyone is kind of whittled down, probably wasteful but RESOURCES EXIST TO BE CONSUMED) saves me a reset and having to do proper setup sitting through cutscenes again.

Junon redux - Oh it's a sequence with characters I've barely used... and Red still has my one Poison materia so I can't wallop the SOLDIER 2nds... and I'm down to like 10 ethers or so, nope running from everything.  I dunno, nothing stands out as pls nerf but maybe force remove everyone's set materia if that's possible?  Granted you can run from everything if you don't feel like fighting the mobs here is worth it so I'm not gonna be upset if that's too much to ask for.

Corel Reactor (2 resets) - uh crap i need someone to do what i've been having cloud doing uh okay hi vincent you're in and then I don't notice until the train fight sequence that I have him in the front row oops let's fix that.  First reset was just me being dumb and forgetting I had Barrier to use for the boss, a bad thing to forget when one of your party members is being 2HKO'd!  (I maaaaay have went overly heavy on the green with Vincent in fairness).  Second reset one of the mobs does some gross doubleact (at least I think it was a doubleact) that involves critting Cid to death and then SMOG ALERT killing Vincent and aaaaa, needless to say this sequence was not my finest hour, but I muddle through.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2017, 05:34:41 AM »

Atomic Scissors badly needs something.  .... ~10 power, long range,

Why not both.png
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Tonfa

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 866
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2017, 03:21:44 PM »
Materia -> Arrange -> Exchange allows you to remove materia from anyone at any time, which was true in vanilla as well. Didn't know this wasn't common knowledge, not sure how to communicate it in game if that is necessary.

also pls tell me about the pcs peeps
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 03:23:19 PM by Tonfa »
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2017, 07:41:29 PM »
oh well i feel dumb now

Quote
also pls tell me about the pcs peeps

at some point but I've mostly been using the same PCs since Midgar so I dunno how useful my feedback would be there.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 07:43:55 PM by Random Consonant »

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1145
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2017, 08:00:38 PM »
that is fine, like there is already some general consensus on things like 'cloud's physical game sucks, especially early on' etc.

Some food for thought:
- What PCs are you using and why did you decide to use them over other options (ergo, if you aren't using someone is there a particular reason why you passed over them?)
- How do you feel your current team performs relative to each other - who feels like MVP, who feels lacking?
- What's your general rationale behind materia setup on them, if any? Do you min/max your materia setup on magic users, set up +stat materia and command materia on your brawlers, etc.
- Thoughts on limits (new mults/effects, ease of acquire, etc.? Ever any time you've set your limit gauge below your current max level?) Like I remember you saying you picked up Yuffie to have access to Clear Tranquil, has that come up ever/did you end up ultimately not fielding her?
- Are there points in the game where you considered switching out PCs aside from being forced to for plot reasons?
- Has the new equipment restrictions on who can wear up ever factor into your decision making, or felt relevant to you during your setup? In a good or bad way?

Everyone has their own approach to PC setups in RPGs and one of the big things about TF7 is that the characters are supposed to be pretty distinctly differentiated from one another (as opposed to vanilla) so understanding the thought process behind why people are picking X PCs is important, as it's a fairly high priority design goal to make sure all of the choices feel compelling. Definitely this will become easier to evaluate further into the game, but how PCs stack up to each other during stretches of Disc 1/2 are pretty important (hell, you're like 2/3 through the game already, for instance.)
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8133
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2017, 04:06:40 AM »
Mt. Corel - Enemies here come in large numbers a lot so MT is quite good! Definitely have to manage MP for this though. Ethers are good. I don't have too much to say about individual enemies but you definitely have to be awake for them. Sleep is nice for those who counter, like bombs. (Sleep pretty great in general.)

The stash of 10 Phoenix Downs is huge in this game, compared to FF7 proper.

I play Mog House since I am pro at taking advice. Then I get thrown in prison.

Corel Prison - Death Claws are pretty legit, as are four of those motor enemies who spam Matra Magic all day every day. Choco-Mog confusing one of them to the rescue! I get Laser.

Dyne - After discovering his def is super-high, I use Barret's best magic attack, which is Sacred Fire, and Dyne dies instantly. K. Laggy informs me that he has a OHKO death counter which would have erased a good bit of a play time and non-trivial E Skill acquisition and I'm immediately very, very glad I lucked into this.


I has jeep + manipulate, now for E Skill hunting.

Harpy - LETZ GET AQUALUNG. <Harpy> You asked for it. *wipe*

Beachplugs - LETZ GET BIG GUARD. ... actually I have more to say about this one! Beachplugs are cool. They are physically immune with plenty of HP, but not unbeatable. On their turns they can cast Berserk or they can physical for 9999, and there are three of them. So, status to the rescue! Mini changes that 9999 into a 1. Esuna can heal Berserk, and anyway they run out of MP fast (they start with only a tiny fraction of their max, so presumably you now need to ether them to get Big Guard?). Sleep/Confuse also help. Finally, killing them efficiently is tricky due to their big HP... so Slownumb to the rescue! I do also kill one with poison and damage. Status, status everywhere. Sadly, they're now immune to Manipulate, because they're Level 99. You'd need either a HypnoCrown or to reach Level 50 for it to have a non-zero hit rate, I believe. Otherwise the rewards for winning are still negigible, but it feels good, man.

I also get White Wind which doesn't seem very useful? 50% of target's HP makes it rather weak in most situations, and very expensive, but it is only the second source of spammable MT healing, and it takes up a fraction of a materia slot instead of 2, so I guess I can't complain.


Turks - Let's talk these guys! They're fun. Manageable enough at first, though Turk Light's dual status definitely makes it that much harder to stay on top of healing. But once below half HP Rude starts healing Reno with Bolt2 (maybe I should have targetted Rude instead?) which is rather difficult to overcome, especially due to Reno now spamming Electroprod which is decent damage + slow. Ow. I have Lunatic High for haste so that helps a lot at least, a bit of a status war emerges. Silencing Rude and a couple timely DICE attacks against Rude and I win.


The Heavy Tanks in the reactor are rude! Big MT damage. Mini to the rescue again! Also despite knowing where Titan is I still need to look up a guide to find the right pixel, man some of the summons are obscure in this game.


I finally run into Yuffie at this point so that's cool.


I am saved at Cosmo Canyon. One complaint I have concerns Skeeskees. They hit me with slownumb, okay cool fine. (Not as funny as the earlier randoms who use it + haste, though.) I'm still gonna take 'em out... but then I realise with a start, a few turns later, that I can't control the character I'm waiting to finish them off with. Then I can't control another character. WTF?

Oh. One of their attacks randomly adds berserk. Which is fine, but... FF7 is stupid and doesn't actually show berserk on someone with slownumb because the latter is considered more important. Since the attack which inflicts berserk isn't obvious at all, I would definitely change this. Either have them manually cast berserk, or don't layer this with Slownumb.


I'll post about PCs later, since I have used everyone at least a bit so far (except Yuffie whom I just got).

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8133
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2017, 03:52:51 AM »
Okay, some run down on the PCs so far. (I'm through the Shinra Mansion, haven't opened the safe though.)

A disclaimer: who I actually used tends to be a combination of who I think will be effective, picking entirely randomly via dicerolls, and asking others in the room for suggestions (which in turn tends to result in me using Tifa).

All comments so far exclude Vincent and Cid, and will mostly exclude Yuffie since I got her late*.

*late = the first time she isn't a freaking 6.25% encounter


Cloud: One annoying consequence of the (very welcome) increase in PC differentiation is that it's now much more annoying to be stuck with Cloud. I think this would be true even if he were still the best PC, but instead he does feel somewhat nerfed. It feels like Cloud gets very few niches over other PCs.

-His physical game is typically kinda underwhelming. He lacks Tifa's crits and Red's weapon variety, as well as Barret and Yuffie's long range. It's capable and there is definitely tradeoff between back row and front row for him, which I suppose is fine.

-His magic is decent but not as good as in vanilla FF7. He gets a decent number of materia slots; his weapons should place him as #2 at this, but he misses out on key armours like the Four Slots and Platinum Bangle; if you miss the Shinra Beta he'll be 2 slots on armour behind everyone else except Tifa (until Corel) and Barret for a significant chunk of disc 1. As for his raw magic stat, he went from being essentially tied with Aeris for the top spot to #3 behind Aeris and Vincent, and I don't find his paltry MP edge makes up for that.

-Finally, his limits don't really impress. They only do damage, and they're row-subject, so if you decide to make Cloud a back-row caster type the L1's become super-underwhelming (and at 120 kills he's stuck there for a while). Against enemies vulnerable to paralysis a Cloud limit pretty much became "meh. Whatever" which is a terrible feeling.

Despite the fact that he's not terrible (in particular he's not bad at anything), Cloud does feel a touch underwhelming and it's made worse by the fact that he's forced. I'm not proposing you just uber him in a huge way, because I really like other PCs having niches he doesn't (e.g. better physicals, better magic, lots of HP, unique limits, etc.). If you just make him the best mage or the best fighter, well, that devalues the other PCs who are supposed to excel in those roles (especially because at this point in the game, there's only one Earring and only one Power Wrist).

But I feel like he needs a push somewhere. A couple possibilities:

-Improve his limits. Make me excited when Cloud gets a limit. Either let Braver ignore row or increase its multiplier. Increase Blade Beam's shockwave multiplier. etc. To some extent this is also Tifa's niche, and she should obviously win front-row damage when the player lines up the YEAHs, but Cloud being good at this too and in slightly different ways (reliability, targetability, long range) would be nice.

-Make him good at having linked slots. One thing I'm finding is that I often don't have the linked slots to use all the blue materia I'd like. Blue materia is cool! Cloud is supposed to be an expert in materia, and would probably know his way around it. Give him more linked slots on his weapons in general (particularly the Force Stealer) which would give him an edge over Aeris, who has more slots and more blasty power.


Barret: Barret has big HP and decent enough strength and long range. This is cool! Mind Blow might be able to cheap things out, but it hasn't really come up for me.

To pay for this, Barret has crappy magic. He also has few materia slots; his weapons don't provide many, typically, and he misses out on the better armours in this regard. Those are pretty notable weaknesses. And finally, he misses with his physical sometimes. Early in the game when Assault Gun is great this is fine but later on his power lead varies and it just feels like an annoying weakness that other PCs don't have to deal with (including Yuffie, so it's clearly not just a long-range balancer).

I don't end up using Barret much, as a result. I think he has a place, with his long-range physical damage (when he's stuck in short range he feels rather trashy, a bit more HP/non-crit damage than Tifa doesn't excuse everything else). I certainly don't think he's a terrible PC. But he's not someone I use super-often anyway.

I'd scrap the sub-100% hit and improve Atomic Scissors in some way, and I think that would basically fix him? Just remember that any stretch of the game where he's screwed over on materia slots, you need to have him make up for it in some other way, and a decently powerful back-row weapon seems like the only way to do it. (or a lot of enemies weak to shot I guess)


Tifa: I'm happy with Tifa. The 40-60% critical rate is an interesting niche. She doesn't have that much raw attack (high str but weak weapons) but criticals and great limit mulitpliers (though with risk) easily make her one of the best at that side of things. She wants to be in the front row but that fits with her wanting to get limits, and has enough HP that she doesn't feel like a glassy liability.

Her magic and materia slots are on the lower end but not terrible or anything, which fits pretty well. Since Barret is ranged and has even more HP I'm fine with him being worse at that.

The main place I moved a bit away from Tifa use is after Red gets the Seraph Comb, because that thing is amazing and makes me really want to concentrate on him as the fighter for a bit and give my other party slot to a mage. But Tifa still has better limit damage and more bulk, and it's perfectly reasonable to run both.


Aeris: Works as intended. If you're gonna have a temp in this system, better make her good. Magic! Does the job. Materia slots! Fairy Tale is great. Weapons which give Vit/Spr are interesting but feel like they miss the point a bit although they do have more linked slots so hey I guess you could run utility Aeris with one.

Limits are different in a lateral way, no way to pump out damage is bad but Seal Evil rules randoms and limit healing's value increases considerably with other sources of MT healing greatly limited, so I'm never gonna complain about them as an option. And since I just got it, thank you THANK YOU for fixing Breath of the Earth into something I actually want to use.

Anyway I use Aeris periodically when the mood strikes me and she works pretty well. She has clear weaknesses on lack of damage limits and poor HP but she's always a reasonable choice.


Red XIII: Man, his stats are just excellent all-around. There's not much to dislike about Red; his only bad stat is HP and even then he's only like 10% behind Cloud. (No, base vit/spr still don't matter.) Every weapon gets a different element! Find one which hits a weakness and watch an enemy hit by it explode. FF7 elemental weaknesses aren't that common so this isn't as OP as it could be, more neat. But regardles, he's the #2 mage and in compeition to be the #2 fighter. And he gets a MT haste limit which is amazing prior to getting Time.

Seraph Comb is still terrific on power when you get it, which is plot-appropriate so that's fine.

Just about the only negative thing to say about him is being row-subject limits his offensive potential on limits. Often enough I even use Lunatic High in randoms...

But yeah, if there's a PC who's in some danger of being too strong it's probably him. He reminds me a lot of vanilla Cloud in that he's better than most PCs at most things... not always the best but very strong overall. But since he isn't really the best at anything (barring base physicals for a window post-Seraph Comb?) maybe I shouldn't be too concerned because the ~powergamers~ may gravitate towards specialists.


Cait Sith: Is. Freaking. Weird.

I dunno what I expected you'd do with him. Good magic, bad speed, good HP? Exaggerate his existing stat build, in other words. When I first realised his magic was trash I had no idea what to make of him. And indeed he's kinda underwhelming in Corel Prison, although HP/MP keeps him from feeling awful.

But yeah pretty much every other weapon gives him some sort of weird unique niche. The White Megaphone has huge power for the time, but randomly adds Haste? Interesting synergy with Dispel; I'd have used it, except that Dispel is IMO too pricy on MP (you're already sacrificing a materia slot for an extremely situational spell, guys). It's light on materia slots so you kinda have to use it for this. Green Megaphone does gravity damage? Seems like it'd be quite potent if you twinked his Str, assuming that works, from the description (free 62.% gravity with a Power Wrist?). Black Megaphone does... magic damage? I've not experimented with that one; kinda curious. And then the Silver Megaphone does fixed 320* damage, pretty cool at my point though will obviously fall off, and its row-ignoring so that's cool.

*The in-game help claims it is 360.

Oh yeah and Dice is a pretty potent limit at my point, though that is definitely falling off.

I haven't actually used him that much but he definitely does look rather cool. And he tends to get enough materia slots/MP to run utility setups well, which is nice, so he isn't entirely about his gimmick.


Gonna pass on Yuffie comments for now.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2017, 05:23:36 AM »
I would like to point out that I'm almost done with Disc 2 and still don't have Cloud's Lv3s.  Feels bad man.

probably should actually talk about PCs though

Cloud: Yeah largly echoing NEB here, Climbhazzard is at least okay in front row?  And yeah honestly finding him not great at having slots until the Enhance Sword.

Barret: Well he's certainly durable and doesn't give up much by back rowing it up, though the low accuracy is kind of mildly annoying and his offense against things not weak to Shot doesn't seem that great to warrant it?

Tifa: In a pretty good spot, I think.  Bringing offense is cool, front-row only is less cool.

Aeris: Certainly good while you have her, MP healing on limits is woah what.  Not really a ton to say though.  Should've used Umbrella.

Red: Good offense, fast (for whatever this ends up being worth), a touch frail but not as much as he could be, also good limits (though row does hold the offensive ones back a bit until Earth Rave, still MT Haste), feels like gamebest PC.

Yuffie: Well I probably would be using her if I didn't have to run Cloud right now?  HP kind of vaguely awful but the status game is cute when it works.

Cait: Seconding the "looked cool, but didn't really use" bit.

Vincent: Has slightly better magic than Red but doesn't seem to be much of a point otherwise?  I guess the attack all guns have some potential against randoms but not really feeling it with dat strength, and I'd rather have Red's limits anyways.  There's always MAGE PARTY I guess but greens have fallen off a fair bit now.

Cid: Uh he exists?  Still having back row limits is cool, might actually be better than Barret if played that way but I can't rightly say since I haven't messed around that much.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 06:17:12 AM by Random Consonant »

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2017, 04:07:05 AM »
Oh, way late but I think I may have possibly false alarmed Blue Light not being Ice since I remember Cloud had an Aurora Armlet on there.  Granted I'm pretty sure I didn't have ice blocking on Tifa though and she was still nulling it so maybe it's both?  Sorry about that.

Underwater Reactor - Randoms seem fine here?  A couple of them have a ton of health but Laser is a friend.

Carry Armor (something like 4 resets total): ok i got this okay nope i don't got this ok i got this oh hey i actually got then and then I wipe to machine gun pincer since the save point is in the sub and not outside it and have to redo this again, sigh.  Cue Yakety Sax brought on by effective quadacting Lapis Laser + Lapis Gaze + arm poke + arm grab, getting blinded sure didn't help matters but eventually try to land Slow on it and oh hey it worked.

Rocket Town/Rude: Well Rude tripleacting Grand Spark was cute, nothing too bad though.

Diamond Weapon: oh i need itd here what do i have that does itd oh only comet uh well then better buckle up.  It works but takes forever.

Gelnika/Turks: One of the Unknowns ends up annoying the crap out of me with it killing everyone's MP and I realize that I -really- should start making sure Tifa is blocking confuse at this point.  Turks probably have their weakest showing here but it had to be somewhere.

Midgar (1 reset): Manholes are an annoying pain to fight due to confusion on their physicals and ultimately not worth it since their rewards are comparable to a single Cromwell for significantly more time/resources involved (or Crazy Saws, which in fairness also inflict confusion but also go down a lot easier) and XCannon, well...

[14:48] <AthenaGlory> ah...."XCannon"
[14:48] <AthenaGlory> its countdown move is the only thing it can do
[14:49] <AthenaGlory> and it did like 400 in vanilla
[14:49] <AthenaGlory> so, you know
[14:49] <RandomKesaranPasaran> so it had to be 9999 now.
[14:49] <AthenaGlory> yes
[14:49] <AthenaGlory> i can consider a funnier option if there is one
[14:49] <RandomKesaranPasaran> well everyone getting put to sleep first is a bit rude

Yeah.  That's about where my issues with randoms end though, SOLDIER 1sts hit hella hard but have a level divisible by 4 so L4 Suicide is a friend, Shadow Makers would annoy me but Turbo Ethers convinced me otherwise, Behemoths are pretty open about the fact that they can straight up wreck people, Crazy Saws I mentioned but 2x Cut + lightning elemental physicals on Tifa provides a quickish out even if they could consistantly confuse like Manholes.

Turks, the grand finale (1 reset): Okay sure let's... oh Elena just OHKO'd Cloud from the back and then Rude doubleacted and dropped Red uh well then better throw Barrier up quickly next time, also probably a good idea to make sure Tifa doesn't heal Reno by accident <_>.

Proud Clod (1 reset): Okay this doesn't seem too bad oh it's charging for something what's it going to *Beam Cannon, 5500 damage* well fucking RIP, better have Mbarrier up when it starts doing that then (Red gets OHKO'd through it with my current setup anyways, that was fun), also good thing I kept Destruct on, that probably would've been another reset otherwise.

Hojo (1 reset): First form is still pretty harmless.  Second form has good damage at least, the arm attack can drop some people if it gets doubleacted, better watch out for that.  Third form... finding out that part of Combo also set Resist was a bad time since Frog + Berserk + Sleep = have a nice day!  Oh it can drop people from full if the last hit crits.  MT Demi3 isn't much fun either.  So second time through I take the time on prior forms to set up Resist on everyone... and almost wipe anyways since not being able to throw up Barrier again = people start dropping to Combo = uh crap.  Clutch Counter Attack + Counter-Deathblow happens though and we manage to avoid drowning, barely.

Next Time: Hey, that's Hell I'm walking into.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 04:55:30 AM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4934
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2017, 11:10:28 PM »
For whatever it's worth, my opinion isn't worth a bucket of spit because I haven't played TF7, but re: Atomic Scissorsgate...  meh.  It's a goofy side weapon for Barret.  I'd argue it *shouldn't* be pushed very hard and should be more a weird option for people who like being silly.  If Barret is underpowered, then slightly buff his previous weapon (Cannonball?) so that it ages less badly if used when out of date, even if it means making him a little good for a time.  Barret shouldn't be intruding too badly on Tifa's space as a front-line brawler.

If Scissors really does need a buff, it should be a goofy one, not back row or materia slots or raw power.  Dexterity/Luck +10, Magic -10?  Speedy critical scissors strike?

Archmage

  • Laggy's Post-marketing Surveillance Team
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 11:50:40 PM »
Kalm: Plot.

My party right now is Aeris/Red. I figure abusing the OP temp PC is a reasonable thing to do and Lunatic High is bonkers. The big thing that's pushing me to use Aeris is the free MT healing due to being limited to one Restore. I would actually probably use her even if she had half as many materia slots (she has 6 at this point with Striking Staff + Titan Bangle). I briefly switched in Barrett because I stole a set of Atomic Scissors; his physical offensive output with them is impressive, but no materia slots is a really, really hard sell on him because all he brings to the party is that hard-hitting fight command.

Nobody needs any new equipment, but I pick up Mystify, Seal, and Heal as well as some more p-downs. Get Matra Magic (which feels fairly costed at 15 MP, by the way). Didn't save enough money for Choco Lure, so I backtracked to Kalm, doing a loop so that I could use the inn for healing KO'd party members instead of costly p-downs.

Birb Fort: Revive being buyable here is neat.

Is there any way to raise Yuffie's appearance rate? It only took me about 15 minutes to find her, but I think I got kind of lucky. I slot her in in place of Aeris because I'm biased towards long-range PCs, they have the same number of materia slots, and Yuffie also gets an MT healing limit. (I don't actually -like- Aeris that much as a character, honestly.)

Gyarados: I wiped to him with 26 HP left. Second go wasn't so bad, I did get lucky with Big Wave missing Cloud. His gimmick is funny. Having Sacred Fire for this was really nice.

That's not how CPR works.

Steal-as-Well is great! It turns Sense into a second Steal materia with a much longer animation!

Boat: Party is Yuffie/Red. I don't actually have Yuffie's MT heal limit yet. Both of them have their weapon upgrades from Junon (I don't have the Magic Comb). I see that the Wind Slash is kind of a sidegrade and decide it isn't going to help me win this fight.

Stop is nasty. Second wipe I set Ice=Elemental on Yuffie's armor and of course she doesn't get hit with Freeze once; instead, she spams it on Red (five times!). Got it on the third try, with Red actually playing medic for most of the fight while whittling her down with Yuffie's physicals and Cloud spamming Sacred Fire. Yuffie has STR Plus and the Hyper Wrist; Greased Lightning hits for ~340 damage. Hilariously, Yuffie learns Clear Tranquil after the fight. Keeping people topped off to avoid being killed by Freeze was the key here.

I get Tifa's next weapon upgrade in Costa Del Sol, consider slotting her in, decide I don't need two physical characters (I want to keep Yuffie), and therefore don't.
"That which can be destroyed by the truth should be." ~P.C. Hodgell

Archmage

  • Laggy's Post-marketing Surveillance Team
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2017, 12:28:13 AM »
Corel Mountain: Yuffie/Red. I have very little to say about this area. The cache of p-downs feels amazingly valuable now. There are a lot of largeish groups of fairly weak enemies (groups of 5 are not uncommon). Physical Yuffie with STR Plus is performing great for me at the moment. My first Bomb blew up on me, but the second one I neutralized with Sleep and stole its arm.

Desert Prison: Barrett/Cait, for the desert, because why not. Cait is super weird and I'm not entirely clear on what I'm supposed to do with him at this point, although I hear he has some gimmick weapons.

Dyne himself: What the fuck?

The progression of thoughts went something like: Oh, so that's how that works. Okay, let's try front-loading some damage for breathing room, I'll slap him with a Right Arm as soon as the fight starts. Okay, this isn't so bad, and ...whaaaaat? Well, okay, I'm dead now, let's try...

After about three deaths I made a save state because running back from the save point is really rather annoying and was consuming a lot of time. I still died a couple times after that, but mostly blame my own carelessness. Once I figured out the trigger for his overkill attack (or at least I think I did) I solved that problem by getting him down to about ~150 HP and then finishing him off with a Right Arm, which deals about ~160 damage. I had originally planned to get him down to ~100 HP before slapping on Reflect with my sole consumable source of that spell, but he wound up murdering me before I managed to put Reflect up, so...anyway, the Right Arm method was easier.

I inquired about the intended strategy for beating this guy and was like "oh." So okay, he's a puzzle boss, which is fine by me. However, since there's a bit of a walk from the save point to the fight, I didn't want to waste turns trying random stuff that might not work OR do any damage, so while I considered trying status effects, I felt like the chance that I'd be setting myself up for a wipe by equipping a useless materia was too high. My first plan to deal with Dyne after I knew what was going on was actually to Mindblow him until he didn't have enough MP to cast Radiance, but I abandoned that plan when I realized Mindblow only did about 18 MP damage and he has 150 MP. I actually think that if you want him to be a puzzle boss of that nature you should give him exactly 90 MP so that a single use of Mindblow shuts it off. I don't think MP damage should be the only solution to the puzzle, but I think that once you think to try that it should be easy to execute as opposed to needing to wait out attacks until you can Mindblow him 4+ times.

Also, this seems like it might be a bug. Albeit a hilarious bug.

http://imgur.com/a/GOfTo
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:15:22 AM by Archmage »
"That which can be destroyed by the truth should be." ~P.C. Hodgell

Archmage

  • Laggy's Post-marketing Surveillance Team
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2017, 01:34:04 AM »
Cosmo Canyon: I'd totally take another HP Plus materia, but man, I am broke. We'll take Yuffie as our third into the Gi Cave, because she's performing well for me and I like her.

I'm starting to get Lv2 magic about now. Figured an ice-elemental physical Yuffie plus Red's new weapon would be pretty effective against most of the enemies in the cave, and I don't appear to have been wrong. The cut weakness on Sneaky Steps helps compensate for their pile of HP. I am using mage Cloud with the Force Stealer over the physical option. Yuffie is the first person to learn Lv2 limits! Red gets Destruct=Added Effect because he's the one with slots for it.

Gi Nattak kills me the first time because my setup is terrible for the encounter. That's an interesting element for him to null. Second attempt I make short work of him (Yuffie was set back to L1 limits because Landscaper is worthless in this fight). He's pretty fragile, I think.

Mansion/Lost Number: Cait/Yuffie. One wipe. Dice and Gravity are the stars of the show here, as was Elemental resist and accessory setup to reduce/negate the magic form's spells.

Uh, Dorky Faces scare the crap out of me with the MT confusion. I think that it's a relatively low chance of confuse, but MT confuse is still possibly super bad. The guillotine guy is funny. I only ran into the mirror enemies once and found myself massively confused by the fact that my own party had reflect, do their attacks set that status or something? The Black M-phone is a great weapon against them, by the way, not that they're all that hard to deal with in the first place.

I am slightly disappointed in the Black M-phone; I noticed it had 255% accuracy and tried a Deathblow setup with it. That actually did OK damage, but I was informed that the damage is still set by STR and not MAG. MAG is a hell of a lot easier to boost, so what I was hoping for was to load Cait down with other materia and smack stuff really hard with a magical physical. It's not -bad- but I wasn't overjoyed.

I have not tried the Green M-phone yet because while the premise is extremely interesting I don't think I can boost STR enough to be happy with it. If you could switch weapons mid-fight I'd be pulling it out for random Gravity-weak or otherwise high-HP enemies.

The White M-phone, though, is fantastic. The fixed 320 damage turns him into a long-ranged attacker with a huge HP pool, and I was pleasantly suprised by how many 640 damage crits he was putting out (Laggy: "Freaking RIP @ Cait's physical"), plus Dice is still reasonably good row-ignoring ITD damage, so...yeah, Cait is actually rocking face through this section of the game.

ArchBrian: Richard got me to use Cait Sith
ArchBrian: Somebody give that man a medal
Laggy: Man there wasn't anything wrong with Cait Sith >.>
ArchBrian: There is everything wrong with Cait Sith. I don't even care if he is usable/OK in the base game, there is just everything wrong with Cait Sith.
Laggy: Haters gonna hate

Mountain: Cait/Yuffie continues. As an interesting aside, Cloud still doesn't have L2 limits because he has spent most of the game either on MT healer duty or -opening- fights with Matra Magic to soften up groups rather than actually getting any kills, and his L1 limits are generally unimpressive. I had him front-rowed to take advantage of some Cut-weak enemy in the Cave of Gi, but upon grabbing the Rune Blade the guy earns a first-class trip to the back row. (Also, I actually have two sets of linked slots for him now, so I can set both Restore=All and some attack magic=All; maybe he'll catch up on kills soon).

LAY FLAT

The dragon is fun, acquired a couple gold armlets. Clearly he is supposed to be a pain to actually kill because he is immune to Gravity (I didn't try mini, now that I think about it). I actually really enjoy randoms that make using status effects and gravity-type attacks worthwhile, so having some tough enemies that reward finding ways to disable them instead of straight HP-based brawling is a whole lot of fun for me.

Materia Keeper: Started with Cait/Yuffie. Think it was three wipes. Ejecting a PC is mean, yo. For some reason I was confused and thought you'd disabled Barrier=All, but no, it's Time=All that doesn't work anymore. I actually switched to the TURK PARTY of Cait/Vincent because the HYDRA's 255% accuracy made him a better physical user (with Deathblow) than Yuffie and I wound up using a fun Reflect-based strategy to do a bunch of free damage. My successful attempt ended with Cloud ejected, Cait dead, and Vincent in Galian Beast form delivering the final blow with Beast Flare, which was suitably epic. Really challenging fight, really satisfying win.

Back-row Galian Beast Vincent's physical doing like 350 damage and Beast Flare doing 1100 at this point seems like a ton of damage, I'm impressed enough by that and the fact that for this stretch of the game he has a good Deathblow weapon that I'm going to keep him around for a bit.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 01:36:44 AM by Archmage »
"That which can be destroyed by the truth should be." ~P.C. Hodgell

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8133
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2017, 10:26:52 PM »
Cosmo Canyon: As usual I can't afford nearly enough of the cool weapons I would like to get. I run Red/Tifa for this dungeon. Summon gets a good workout clearing the larger formations of enemies. Hooray for some of the enemies here having elemental weaknesses, FF7 doesn't have nearly enough of those.

I come up with Clever Plans for Gi Nattak involving Elemental/Fire and generally end up feeling like my time is wasted because the will-o-wisps no longer use a fire attack, instead it's slow-numb? Fight's fun enough anyways, Sacred Fire gets a workout as I recall. Silence is thrown around so I get to feel smart for having one PC blocking that (due to it being on the Death Sentence blocker).



Shinra Mansion: I run Red/Aeris then Aeris/Cait. I get Aeris' L2 limit and it's actually useful, huzzah! Dorky Face MT confuse is certainly scary, putting confuse immunity on my best attacker goes a long way towards helping. Also hahaha if you confuse them, that's great. Also ran into Mirrors stealth inflicting reflect, not sure what I think about that. Ghirofelgo is no longer OHKOed by LASERBEAMS but it does good enough. Demi 2 can OHKO it? Almost worth the MP cost? Probably not, Laser brings 'em low enough for other people to finish for cheaper. Bats have a physical which isn't physical so Mini'ing them isn't total domination like it is for many fighters. I don't fight Yin/Yang. Did you remove them or did I get lucky? I hope you removed them because those animation times are an abomination. I also don't fight those rare guys who use ???, oh well.

Gravity is a junk materia by the way. Like Dispel that MP cost is seriously too high, between Laser and the Black Megaphone I have other sources of gravity damage that don't burn literally 20-25% of my MP bar.

Yay, Barrier!

Lost Number: His damage can certainly add up. After he turns red he gets seriously hard for my party to damage, Cait Sith's fixed 320 is all I can really do. Good enough.


Mt. Nibel: Dragons still owned by sleep. Lay Flat guys still have a lot of damage that can add up but glorious Fire weakness matters, Fire 2 All gets a workout. Not too much to say about the rest. I get the Powersoul. See? Unlike Atomic Scissors, here is a case where 0 materia slots makes sense. Death Sentence shenanigans ensue. I also get Vincent's first 255 hit weapon and it's... actually quite strong? Okay, Deathblow it is then. That + Steal as Well is pretty nifty.

Materia Keeper: Definitely one of the toughest bosses so far. His basic physical keeps barely one-shotting the people I revive with Life, and I assume my luck is awful for a while... then I realise that no, it does cHP/2 damage. Asshole. He also throws in a real physical attack which certainly hurts though fortunatelly not enough to OHKO front-row Tifa or back-row anyone, and has doubleactions sometimes to worry about. The offence adds up, I have trouble recovering against it especially when he doubles at a bad time. I kinda give up the fight when I get down to one PC and decide to throw a Spider Web at him for slow and hey it works. Burn an Elixir and then I'm actually able to recover. Materialize is a jerk move with how FF7 handles exp but I kinda like it anyway, I get Trine, victory with no resets somehow. Also thank you for making him not immune to fire so Vincent doesn't get super-trolled.


Palmer: well uh I come into this set up for physicals as per above and it really, really doesn't work as once again "perfect accuracy" in FF7 proves less than perfect. His offence is pretty good so I decide to use Rasp and run him out of MP. He promptly responds by spamming berserk and I don't react to this fast enough and thus lose. Well, by "lose" I mean "determine that it will take less time to restart the fight than wait for my berserked PCs to make hundreds of attacks until enough hit to bring him down".

I come back to the fight with the following:
-poison immunity
-reflect to send things back at him
-more magical damage in general
-berserk immunity on at least one PC

This is gross overkill and the fight is now a joke. Still, only boss to actally give me a reset outside Bottomswell and it's PALMER, I hope you're happy Tonfa.


Back to the Gold Saucer because I've run out of regular potions and the only place I can find that sells them is Corel. I forget that going back here locks Aeris into your party so I guess I'm doing Temple of Ancients before Wutai. I also try the arena and it goes hilariously badly. Maybe after I get a Ribbon. Maybe.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8133
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2017, 02:41:48 AM »
Temple of the Ancients-

Oh look, things that actually have elemental weaknesses. Frogs get OHKOed by Shiva, Quake 2 MT sees a workout against... I forget their name. Powersoul/Death Sentence allows some heavy hits against bulkier Doorbulls. 8 Eyes I am terrified of because they hit damn hard for FF7 enemies in vanilla, so I abuse them with sleep, can't tell you much past that. The pincer by Ancient Dragons is scary except I get a Tifa limit immediately and that's basically that.

I get a Ribbon. Making it block positive status too makes it much less of a god accessory than FF7, though on the other hand this is going to make the arena even harder.... Still, a good choice. It's still great, let's be honest.


Red Dragon and secret friend - Well that's one way to make this boss better. Blue Dragon, you the real MVP, because Blue Dragon breath does decent MT damage AND causes Stop. This is rather brutal since there's no specific Stop-blocker, so Ribbon it is (I guess Added Effect Time would also work, I don't think of that because I'm using Added Effect for death sentence immunity). Anyway I don't have a Ribbon on the first run so eventually everyone is stopped at once and that's GG. Refights still aren't exactly easy because that's two sources of offence, Blue Dragon Breath is nasty enough even before Stop happens. Third fight I execute better and win. MT regen sees use for the first time. I kill Blue first of course, Red gets a bit better once he's alone (gaining MT) but it makes no real difference. First two-reset battle!


Not the last of course.


Demons Gate - Most FF7 bosses have pretty similar HP in TF7, for some reason this one gets tapped to get way more, like double any previous boss (though no more than the dragons together to be fair). Oh yeah and his damage is twice as high, and Petrifeye is Slow+Petrify (yes, they stack) instead of Slow-numb, yikes. So Esuna/Soft, then Haste/Hyper are needed to recover. I even try to slow him and it doesn't seem to work. So basically this boss is WAY BETTER than in vanilla and he was already probably the best boss in FF7 disc 1.

MT Barrier is my opening strategy and it certainly works well. Getting rid of Ribbon so it actually affects everyone proves necessary. I try MT MBarrier to deal with Cave-In but it weakens healing too much and proves a liability. Haste gets used though not on Death Sentence'd Tifa (other two PCs immune it via accessory and Added Effect Odin; I also block petrify via my one Jem Ring). Once Demon Rush starts getting used that's... ugly, since it almost OHKOs front-row Tifa in Barrier (so would OHKO many front-row PCs) and is a solid 2HKO to back-row Aeris, again in Barrier. Get Barrier or get out, lol you if you use a Ribbon I guess. Keeping that up and refreshing it if I die is essential. Barrier eats through MP fast so Breath of Earth is the preferred Aeris limit for this fight. Powersoul Tifa provides most of the offence along with a shot of Bahamut, not too different from normal. Definitely a fight where I ration my uses of MT Cure 2, fortunately Edincoat Cloud has enough magic that even his MT Cure is pretty good, so six shots of MT healing overall goes a long way. Lots of Hi-Potions get used too of course.

Four resets in total.


Dragon Armlet is still terrific and unnerfed, Gigas Armlet loses its drawback from vanilla so is just great. Yay new armour! The weapons from here are also a relatively powerful bunch, so I'm ready for Wutai. I also get my second mastered sense from this fight and I realise I never sold the first. I sell both, and uh I don't think I'll have any money troubles ever again.

Wutai arc is relatively uneventful by comparison, I run Cloud/Tifa/Red with their Temple weapons (Seraph Comb in Red's case). Cloud/Tifa's weapons are great since they raise speed a lot (Red's already fast) and have cool added status + crit rates, Gigas Armlet lets Tifa OHKO many randoms even without a crit. I actually use Potions in battle against the last surviving enemy once or twice which feels weird but hey that's how it works, good thing the rest of the game Cure is more efficient because I'd be annoyed if this were the only healing paradigm. Only randoms which really give me much trouble are those lightning-spamming birds in the world map mountain area (Dragon Armlet helps at least).

Rapps - Well Aero 2 certainly hurts and I spend a lot of the battle poisoned. Fortunately I have a reasonably bulky party so it's not a OHKO on anyone and nothing a couple Hi-Potions can't patch up. Lunatic High gets used almost immediately and is huge, Haste for everyone still great. There are a lots of really great item drops around here but I don't really use them. Not a completely trivial fight but way easier than the ones in the temple, and I imagine this is probably the case even if you do them in the opposite order I did.


And that's where I am now, I guess I'll look at the pagoda next, which means using Yuffie for the first time.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Tide

  • Malice Tears
  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1357
  • Cacophony of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2017, 07:14:22 PM »
Quote
Still, only boss to actally give me a reset outside Bottomswell and it's PALMER, I hope you're happy Tonfa.

<RICHARD> Working as intended
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: TF7 - The Final Fantasy 7 Rebalancing Mod
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2017, 04:35:30 AM »
I think Dragon Armlet is unique now?  I remember there being a lot of desire for more of them and being denied.  So diversity in your good armours!

Also
Quote
Still, only boss to actally give me a reset outside Bottomswell and it's PALMER, I hope you're happy Tonfa.

<RICHARD> Working as intended
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.