Author Topic: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis  (Read 11768 times)

Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2015, 01:12:05 PM »
Steiner gets Cover in FF9, as does Freya.  Zidane gets the lesser version, Protect Girls.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2015, 02:22:48 AM »
So having just finished Black Mage and me being late, it's obvious which job we should do next!  The direction is unarguably logical and makes perfect sense after doing Black Mage considering the similarities and the consistency the job has of appearing throughout the franchise!  Of course I am referring to...



THIEF

...what? Thought I was going to do White Mage!?  HA! Jokes on you! ...ok I didn't really fool any of you as you knew I was going for the bait and switch, didn't you?  Bah, screw you!

Thief has been around since the beginning of the franchise.  Thief's generally have top tier speed (if not flat out game best), specialize in using Daggers, and their trademark ability is Steal.  Sometimes they can use other weapons like Boomerangs, get evasion builds, and often have SOME association with Ninja.  So without further ado, here is the almighty Thief!!!!!

Final Fantasy 1 (NES/Origins): ...ok, using the term "Almighty" was bad when we start near bottom of the barrel.  Let's face it, Thief is crap.  It has worse equipment than both Red Mage and Fighter (...then again, what DOESN"T have worse equipment than Fighter?), and lacks the former's access to Magic and the latter's raw stats.  BUT IT CAN RUN FROM BATTLES MORE COMMONLY!!! Uh, yeah, totally a losing trade.  I'm not going to look at Thief in the Ninja state because that's like a whole new job, but really just looking at Thief based on the first half of the game, it's awful.

Final Fantasy 1 (Dawn of Souls/PSP): So FF1 lacks a legitimate speed stat, so how do we make Thief not suck while not stealing (...no pun intended) from a quirk of the other jobs?  The answer apparently is "let him have the highest accuracy, which by extension means he hits the most."  This is immediately notice-able since Thief gets 2 hits right out of the gate and is actually a better damage dealer than the rest of the party, and he's capable of keeping up in damage as a result of being consistently ahead in hits.  He also got better equipment, relatively speaking.  The Mythril Sword in Elfland is no longer available until significantly later (Crescent Island I believe), so his weapons lag for way shorter period of time, in addition to the Soul of Chaos dungeons popping up.  These grant access to a handful of weapons (most notably the Kotetsu from the FF3 Bosses) that make the "can't use Mythril Sword" factor not nearly as big a deal.  Thief's still probably worse than Warrior, but at least he doesn't embarrass himself the way he did in the original FF1 Incarnations.

Final Fantasy 3 (NES):  Thief is generally an under-appreciated job in FF3.  He joins the same time as a bunch of other physical jobs and you see he doesn't have any obvious perks, so many overlook it in favor of Knight or Karateka, and lacks an obvious "use this now!" moment the way Dragoons have.  In truth, Thief is actually very effective for the window of time right after you get him.  Amur gives him access to Boomerangs, which means he can be a strong back row physical damage dealer with no real downsides, as well as he gets some unique armors that make his defensive stats decent enough.  As an added perk, Thief can unlock doors, which exist throughout the entire Mid-game, and it generally has equipment that keeps him up to speed until around the time of Cave of Darkness.  This may sound like a limited time of use, but the way FF3 is structured, that can be said for a lot of jobs, as only a handful are actually consistently good.

Final Fantasy 3 (DS):  So now Thief is gotten immediately instead of halfway through the game.  Sounds good and all, except Thief is pretty clearly bad when you first get it.  Weapons are lackluster, has no real redeeming qualities other than being able to use a lot of the same armors as Warrior, and really just has high speed.  Does this mean Thief is bad then?  Absolutely not!  Thief is an oddly good project job in this game.  If you consistently use one through the Floating Continent, which is more reasonable than it sounds, it'll build up a lot of Job Levels, and then Amur kicks in which, just like the NES version, grants Thief access to some significant equipment upgrades.  From this point onward, Thief is pretty clearly an effective job, having high speed and competent damage.  Add in consistent weapon upgrades throughout, and we have a pretty good speedy damage dealer.  An added perk Thief has on top of this?  Steal has some actual niche uses.  Two main uses are Gungnir for Dragoons, and being able to increase your stock of damage dealing items for Scholar (you can steal Bomb Arms, which cast Firaga, fairly early even), which is nice because that's your best way to do Magic Damage endgame.  Overall, Thief is a good job that just has a rough beginning.  If I had to pick a downside for endgame, it'd be that Thief competes with Ninja, who covers a very similar niche, but can do some other quirks, though Thief isn't completely outclassed here given the JLevel difference is going to be massive.

Final Fantasy 5: Ok, let's just address the Elephant in the room first: Edge is not a Thief!  He's a Ninja who just equipped Steal as his secondary skill-set, because FF4 lacks Thieves.   Got it?  Good!  Now, FF5's Thief is...er...a total support job.  As in, it has a bunch of convenient perks for dungeons, but nothing it grants you is really significant for battles.  A lot of the things Thief gives are generally not worth equipping, since who wants to waste an entire skillset slot on See Passages?  To be fair, Thief has a lot of these innately, so just having one for convenience is a perk, as well as mastering one so your Freelancers/Mimes get all these perks is a bonus too.  Another reason to bother with Thief for mastery purposes is game best speed, though not a huge jump over Ninja/Mystic Knight(/Gladiator.)  As far as Steal is concerned...well, it's the only way to get a large number of items...the problem is most of them aren't worth the bother.  Yes, Dragon Lances are good on Shinryu, pity you're going to get Elixirs 15/16th's of the time (...to be fair, Elixirs are hardly bad, and Reset does exist.)  So Thief has it's quirks, but I hesitate to call it a "Good" job.  To it's credit, it does get some ok damage with things like Twin Lance, a weapon most can't use, for a brief period of time, but probably not enough to save it.

Final Fantasy 6: For he will argue otherwise, Locke is totally a thief.  He has just about everything you associate with Thief with the game best speed, uses Daggers, Boomerangs, etc.  He also can use some heavy armor, and a fair number of swords.  The logic behind that is simple: balance purposes.  Locke doesn't have a strong special command, and his Magic Power is subpar, so they needed to give him something that lets him stand out, so the focus was going to be on his equipment options, so they decided to tweak them and let him use more than expected, though some of the choices are completely arbitrary (case in point, he can use Mythril Blade but not Regal Cutlass?  Alright, makes sense; he shouldn't have access to the stronger one.  Thing is, later one, he can't use Epee, but can use the superior Elemental Swords?  At this point, I'm pretty sure they just dart boarded what Swords Locke can and can't use.)  Locke also has high evasion in versions not the SNES or PS1 version, since he has naturally 15% and weapons that boost evasion though this really doesn't come up often.  The question is, however, how is Locke as overall!?  The answer is...two sided.  He's kind of crappy in the WoB.  There's really nothing he can do that someone else can't do better.  Sure, he can be effective with Genji Glove + Atlas Armlet, but so can everyone else in the cast save Gau, the difference is they either don't need that to do damage or become useful.  It almost feels like they forced you to use Locke a lot because you probably wouldn't (ok, I know the real reason is because "he's designated as the male lead and it fits his character to tag along" but hush!); Hawkeyes get Hyped, but they're just a random chance to do something that most of the rest of the cast can do consistently, without sacrificing any form of defenses.  His only real saving grace in the WoB is that because of so much forced time, he'll have one of your best spell selections, and possible to get his magic up good with Esper Boosts. 

...then the WoR kicks in and he rejoins with the Valiant Knife.  This weapon is single handedly Locke's saving grace as once you get the Offering, Locke can be set up to do some really incredible (consistent) damage and doesn't really have to sacrifice much beyond Front Row to get it (and there are ways to mitigate that.)  Add in access to Illumina on top of that, and suddenly Locke's a lot more impressive of a character.  So by end game, Locke's actually pretty good!  Sounds like the FF3DS Thief, except doesn't require consistent usage of him.

Final Fantasy 9: As I've said before, FF9 has only 4 real classifications of characters, and Zidane falls into the "Physical Fighter" classification.  He has game best speed but lol speed in FF9.  Steal is kind of cool in this, especially since Bandit insures your first Steal will have 100% success rate, and What's That!? has the perk of resetting your formation in one casting so we can get those Mages back into the back row.  The rest of his skillset is basically filler, and while his Trance is really strong, it's also an FF9 Trance, so "notreliable/10."  A lot people think think Zidane is only good if you boost Thievery, but this couldn't be further from the truth; Zidane's good if you keep his weapons up to date, which requires some synthing, though it's always between 2 of Zidane's daggers, and I believe all his daggers are storebought, usually in the same place the synthing exists.  With that, applying the usual "MP Attack" (available early Disc 2), and the primary slayer skills I mentioned above, Zidane's a consistently solid hitter, capable of doing 9k+ damage with his basic physical come endgame (yes, that high; DL Stat Topic remember doesn't factor in those 2 important damage boffs, hence why Zidane's damage seems so low in the DL.)  He also generally has good HP since he's in your team pretty much the entire game, thus lots of stupid FF9 Strength Buffs, which puts his HP above most characters (though he misses HP+10%.)  Overall...Zidane's an effective physical fighter who can get some neat stuff here and there.

Final Fantasy 10: Rikku is debatably a Thief, and I'll be yelled at if I leave her off so...I'll cover her thief-like qualities I guess!  She's fast, she can steal, she's damage anemic on her own Sphere Grid, and that's about it for Thief stuff!  Being fast means she's good to start any battle, since you can swap in, say, Auron or Lulu, and not worry about them going AFTER the enemy, Steal is a nice "Free action" for cheap AP on her, that also nets you some potentially useful items (or just garbage like an Echo Screen <_< >_> ), especially since the first use is guaranteed success.  It can also kill a handful of mecs, which is both a good and a bad thing.  Good because, well, the enemy is dead!  Bad because it means you can't steal from them AND Overkill unless you use Mug...and Rikku is not good enough at damage for Mug to overkill for most of the game.  Honestly, I'm just going to leave it at that because a lot of Rikku's best qualities don't stem from her Thief-like ones, but rather the whole package (she is just as much "Chemist" as she is "Thief" frankly.)

Final Fantasy 14: Rogue is a thing but it's really just proto-Ninja so not going to really count it.  That and I have no clue what it can do besides "not take fall damage."  Seeing as Classes don't take traditional FF Names (save Archer...which is a job that's NEVER had a consistent name...)...look, just shut up and ignore this one ok?

Final Fantasy Tactics: Just when you thought Thief had finally gotten past it's sucktitude, HERE COMES THE FFT THIEVES!  They rely on Daggers, a shitty weapon that has low WP and half relies on Speed making it's damage harder to increase.  Steal Heart can be fun, stealing equipment allows for some nice trophies, Poaching can get you nice stuff but honestly a lot of that just leads to "more trouble than it was worth" or in Poaching's case, only a handful of enemies actually give something meaningful and only sometimes!  Caution is kind of ass without a Shield or a Mantle and even then it's probably not worth the JP, Catch is a novelty reaction but not really a good one unless you're trying to make an army of Chaos Blade/Excalibur wielding Special PCs or something.  So does this job have ANY Qualities?  ...Move +2.  That's a legit movement skill that's probably the best reason to use them.  Also one of the only jobs with above average Speed Growth, so that's a thing!  Yeah, really, it's hard to defend using Thief other than "something you use to unlock jobs that need it as a pre-req" because let's be honest, FFT Thieves suck.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: ...apparently they realized Thieves were bad so they made them a little too good here.  See, Thief is basically the way you get a lot of the really good stuff in FFTA that lets you, you know, destroy the game.  Their damage is better than you'd expect, but more important they have Steal Ability, and remember that on top of this, FFTA uses FF9's "Learn stuff from equipment" meaning getting better gear is especially important.   So basically, Thief is kind of integral to doing anything interesting in this game.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2: And apparently they realized that Thief was TOO important in FFTA1, so they tried to find a middle ground between FFT's "Suck" and FFTA1's "almost required" and came up with...kind of forgettable?  Thief isn't bad but it's also something you can just kind of forget you have.  It gets nice stuff, but a lot of items can be gotten in other ways that it's no longer integral.

Final Fantasy 10-2:  Thief has high speed, and a passable early game physical due to two hits and a bunch of weird crap that you probably won't be using too much.  It has First Strike which is cool, which like with Rikku in FF10, means you can swap into something more useful immediately and not worry about that Job's stats.  It's other best use probably stems from Pilfer MP, allowing you to refill MP on jobs that need a lot of it (Pilfer HP is kind of a joke by contrast.)  Honestly, I'm looking at it's skillset, stats, etc., and I'm not really seeing it as a very compelling or strong job.  I know someone argued that it's a useful job but I remember trying these tricks in-game and not being impressed on my second playthrough.

Final Fantasy 4 Heroes of Light: Yes, I'm talking about this again so quiet and stop your bickering!  Bandit, as it's called here because reasons, is useful for one very specific reason: It's the first legitimate physical job you have access too.  No, I'm not kidding; before this you get Freelancer, Freelancer+ (Wayfarer), a bunch of mages.  It's fast, it can steal, and you need to steal to get through some parts of the game because this game is stupid.  Then you get more interesting jobs and stop using it unless the game demands you steal.  SO MOVING ONTO SOMETHING BETTER!!!

Final Fantasy 12 Revenant Wings: Vaan is basically a Thief in this game.  He's about speed, and stealing stats from enemies because conventional items don't exist.  Vaan's useful in this game for one very important reason: For a large part of the game, he's your only Melee class character.  You get a bunch of ranged characters and 2 fliers, but you don't get a 2nd melee character from between when Bag'gamman leaves and Basch joins.  I probably shouldn't count this, but shut up, I am!

Bravely Default: And we end with Bravely Default!  Thief here is a fast job with an S in Daggers, decent levels in Bows allowing for a strong weapon without Double Grip, and Steal can net a fair number of cool things.  It gets all the Speed +% abilities, justifying spending some time in the job, Abate Wind if wind damage is causing you problems, and Lifesteal works for doing damage and healing in the same turn if you really need that.  Not the greatest or most interesting of jobs, but it's not downright horrible too, just kind of limited. 

Theatrhythm: Thieves in this game are those I would identify by getting Treasure based skills like Treasur Hunter, Steal, among others, which usually is based off the characters who, get this, were thieves in their home game!  That mostly applies to Zidane, Locke and Vaan here.  Vaan just kind of sucks; he's an FMS PC with low speed...do I really need to say what's wrong with this?  Locke's a pretty standard "only good in FMS'" which means you won't use him in Dark Notes because some BMS PCs like Terra or Shantotto are fast enough to reach the end which is all you need.  Zidane, however, is actually decent; while being a mostly FMS PC, he's not a deadweight in BMS', so can actually play the role of Party Leader needed for Dark Notes.

Curtain Call: FMS PCs are more meaningful because more item tricks and they keep track of how far you go so you can treat them kind of like BMS' with a different goal rather than just "you got far enough, who cares about anything else!"  Anyway, the 3 above return, joined also by Rikku (10-2) and Yuffie.  Honestly, not much has changed; you use them mostly in FMS' to get good stuff, though Zidane's no longer particularly worthwhile in BMS.  You basically are going to use these characters for purposes of high distance coverage and/or lots of items. 

And with that, my analysis of THIEF is finished!  Tune in next time for *omitted because decision yet to be made*
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 12:05:07 PM by Meeplelard »
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2015, 05:28:59 AM »
FFD: Thief is fighting for game-worst class but it's still not the worst in the series. It DOES have access to Katanas, which all hit species weakness, so that's cool. And it can use boomerangs but you won't be seeing those for most of the game. It's mostly a support class, with abilities that help one find items or flee from battles. Stealing doesn't completely suck on this game, but it's hardly a requirement until post game when you're hunting for rare items to trade or synth into the über weapons for the superbosses. Outside that? The only thing people use Thief for is Speed+10%. Which admittedly is great in a game where Speed actually does things! Just not a class you'll be keeping once you have Ninja and mastered the Speed boost.

Reiska

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2015, 08:20:26 PM »
FF1 NES thief actually CAN'T run from battles more commonly.  That's right, the one core feature the class is supposed to have doesn't work.  Nasir code is amazing.

FF5 thief doesn't have much going for it besides the Chicken Knife and other jobs can use it as well/better.  You CAN get pretty decent damage out of thief by sticking Barehanded on him, though (to be clear, still using a weapon, just using Barehanded for the STR boost).

Re: Locke, the "Epee" was the "Great Sword" in the Japanese version, which pretty cleanly explains why Locke can't use it. 

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2015, 08:45:50 PM »
Barehanded Knife Thief doesn't even do as much damage as support-less Knight (similar Str, swords > knives) so let's not go overboard hyping (essentially) untwinked FF5 physicals. The ChickenKnife hype for Thief is not because it's a knife (as almost every job can use knives in FF5) but because Mug negates its downside, and is easier to learn than Rapid Fire, reliable unlike Dance, and goes off instantly unlike Focus or Jump. While most people would probably (rightly) side with Rapid Fire or Dance as the best ways to use the Chicken Knife, Mug still does deserve a little bit of note for that.

But overall, Meeple's assessment of the class is correct, that it is primarily cool for some utility perks (ambush immunity, Dash, Find Passages, a few cool steals) and having the best speed mastery in the game, but at least it doesn't completely embarrass itself otherwise.

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Captain K

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2015, 02:40:56 PM »
FF1 NES thief actually CAN'T run from battles more commonly.  That's right, the one core feature the class is supposed to have doesn't work.  Nasir code is amazing.

As someone who played a shitload of FF1 NES, I can guarantee you that Thief runs from battles more commonly.  There is a *huge* difference in run success rates between a party that has a thief and one that doesn't.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2015, 05:38:09 PM »
The truth is somewhat complicated.

Quote
Running is always successful in a preemptive attack, and never possible in
unrunnable battles. Running is successful if:

Luck > 0...[Level + 15]

However, running is bugged on the NES and it loads something else instead of
the runner's level:

Slot 1: Slot 3's Status byte
Slot 2: Slot 4's Status byte
Slot 3: Identifier for entity that attacks third, either 0-8 or 128-131
Slot 4: Depending on the one's digit of Slot 4's HP, 128-137

So, someone in Slot 1 or 2 will usually be able to run if their Luck is 15 or
higher and the character in slot 3 or 4 has normal status.

Running was supposed to have been fixed on the Origins version, but it
succeeds much less frequently than one would expect given the formula above,
and without apparent regard for luck. It appears that running is bugged in a
different, unknown way on Origins.

In short:
-In order to be good at running, you need to be in slot 1 or 2.
-At low levels, Thief is indeed better at running than other classes, provided he is in slot 1 or 2, due to starting with higher luck.
-You only need 15 luck to achieve the maximum run rate, something that every class does by around Level 14-15 (~Earth Cave levels). From then on, it no longer matters what class you are.

So there is in fact some truth to Thief being better at running, but it comes with a bunch of big caveats (the difference is only significant at very low levels and vanishes entirely by midgame, and it only applies if the fragile Thief is in one of the party slots which draws most attacks) which is why Thief's running ability is rightly antihyped. Contrary to my previous belief, though, being a Thief is in fact good for something as far as running is concerned; I thought that Luck was what was bugged in the routine, instead of Level. (Sorry about that, Meeple.)

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DragonKnight Zero

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2015, 05:13:16 AM »
Throwing out random thoughts.

FF5 Knight is reliant upon an evadable physical attack for damage.  So it has issues dealing with high evasion enemies later in the game or enemies that employ nasty counters to the Fight command.

In addition to its other disadvantages, high evasion shuts down the entire skillset of FFT Knight.  They also have the misfortune of relying on a 1 range physical attack in a game where every monster has innate Counter.  Innate shield usage has interesting niche uses except Geomancers and Lancers exist as well as special classes with ranged sword skills.  There are a handful of battles where Break skills are handy.  Otherwise in vanilla FFT, damage beatdowns tend to be superior.

FFT Thief: It's the class one uses to pick up skills that other classes use better.  The only time I've really found Thief as a class effective is Agrias with Equip Sword and stacked with PA boosting gear before Knight Swords appear.  (even then, Attack UP Geomancer is superior)

Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2015, 10:10:03 PM »
I actually wish to ammend a statement of mine in the Black Mage part, namely FF3NES section.

Having just replayed the early game, I think calling Black Mage "useless at first" is unfair.  It's straight up better than White Mage during this arc because while both are inferior to Red Mage, Black Mage can pull it's weight better with low MP thanks to Bows + Holy Arrows (the first dungeon it's in has a lot of Undead), allowing passable damage and back row.  White Mage, by contrast, only has the MP Advantage, at a part in the game where it maybe accounts for 1 or 2 charges of level 1 spells at best.  Considering that using a Red Mage probably means a durability push and enemies dying faster, I think I was underselling Black during this arc.

...granted, this amounts to literally one dungeon of content as after this dungeon, W. Slayer stops being meaningful, MP differences start being meaningful, and yeah, the rest of my statement remains true.  Just noting this because we'll get to White Mage sooner or later, so it puts my comments there in better context.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2015, 08:55:58 PM »
Time for an update because I've been slacking!

Last time, we talked about Thief, which means we have done 3 out of the 7 (...yes, 7; Ninja is his own thing for these purposes) classic classes established in FF1, which is of the course logical way to start things since it's the beginning.  So which way am I going this time? Will I go with a physical one? A Magic one? The one with the best hat?

Well, after much thinking about it (by which I mean spent 30 seconds on it), I have decided the thing I will talk about is...



EXCALIBUR

(You have Mandy to blame for the image on this one)

Yeah, decided to go with a weapon this time for a change of pace.  Don't worry, next time we'll get back to your regularly scheduled class of...something or other...but it will definitely be a class/job/whatever you wanna call it!  Anyway, Excalibur is a recurring weapon in the franchise, usually being an end-game sword with something relating to holy elemental.  I don't have much else to say about it other than it's totally named after King Arthur's sword and...ah hell...TO THE GAME'S THEMSELVES!  I am going to skip games like Dissidia where it's just there for flavoring and such, because we'll be here forever.

Final Fantasy 1 (all versions): Unlike other aspects, weapons didn't change in FF1 between versions.  The only difference is a relative worth thanks to the existence of Soul of Chaos dungeons, but I'll be ignoring that!  Anyway, Excalibur (or Xcalbur for those NES fans)was the 2nd strongest weapon in the game, with the 2nd highest Crit Rate because FF1 is glitched and stupid.  It's usable only by Knight, a job that didn't need any help to be awesome already, and in versions where it works, it can hit all species/elemental weaknesses...which doesn't really amount to much since the attack bonus is so small relative to the damage it does.  If you have even a single Knight in your team, you will be using this weapon, as chances are you'll be giving Masamune (the one weapon that outclasses it) to a different character to have 2 comparable physicals.  In Dawn of souls, there's some competition like the Ultima Weapon and Ragnarok, but one is at the end of a 40 floor dungeon (and like Masamune, can be used by anyone, so you'll probably hand it to someone else), and the other involves beating Shinryu, one of the hardest fights in the game, so good chance you'll be making some use of this anyway.

Final Fantasy 2 (all versions): Hey look! I can finally acknowledge this game!  Excalibur is pretty much in the same boat it was in FF1, being "the #2 weapon behind Masamune." You get it before the final dungeon, and it's in a weapon class that you've probably had at least one character raised in because Swords are good.  I hear it has a special effect but no one seems to have consistent sources on this; I think someone told me it resists all status, but don't quote me on that.  In Soul of Rebirth, it's the strongest weapon you'll get outside of Uniques, which is to say, Josef probably will end up using this since he doesn't get a unique weapon, and shields are awesome!  PSP version adds things like Ragnarok (Firion unique), but involves doing bonus dungeon stuff you might just skip anyway.

Final Fantasy 3 (NES): Excalibur was one of the Eurekan weapons, meaning it's a weapon you'll be using end-game on one of your Ninjas; before Ninja, it's an excuse to use Knight since only he can wield it, probably alongside one of Ragnarok and Full Moon.  I have not much else to say about this; it's a strong weapon and you'll be using it if you know what's good for you.

Final Fantasy 3 (DS): Excalibur here is a little different; it still kicks ass having high attack and +5 to all stats, but the chance you'll be using it is lower now, because of the draw of characters.  Knight still gets it, but Knight isn't as good as it was and so not a given.  Another user of it, is of all things, Red Mage, who can make use of it with Stoneblade for a physical fighter who has a decent Magic Defense score (this is a surprisingly valuable niche), as well as a healer who can do legitimate damage.  So what's the issue?  There's a non-negligible chance you won't be using either character.  to be fair, Excalibur is one of the saving graces of Knight, since he's the only one who can wield it and Ragnarok at the same time, which is 2 weapons of high attack that grant +10 stats across the board total, so I suppose that's a notable fact, but beyond that?  Strong weapon with limited usability due to lack of users.

Final Fantasy 4 (all versions): While Final Fantasy 4 DS changed a lot, this was not one of those things.  Excalibur is Cecil's 2nd strongest weapon, is Holy elemental which is good in the 2D Final Dungeon (save for Blue Dragons) and sucks in the DS Final Dungeon (because it's stupid.)  Not much else to say other than that it actually works for an Ultimate Weapon, kind of, should you miss Ragnarok, as while not ideal, it's strong enough to be convincingly an Ultimate...which begs the question of "What the hell were they thinking with Kain's Holy Lance?"  DS version granted makes the Holy Lance significantly stronger but shh!  It's also a rare sword that only Cecil can use but Kain cannot, I guess, establishing the "Knight Sword" class seeing as it and other Cecil-exclusive swords all have a unique icon.

Final Fantasy 5: Excalibur is probably the strongest sword you'll be getting in this game.  It's also usable only by Knight (and Freelancer), like a lot of end-game swords, further showing "hey look, Knight Sword!"  As a result, Excalibur is one of the best weapons you'll be wielding alongside Spell Blade.  It's also stronger than it looks since that +5 Strength adds an extra multiplier to damage, I believe, putting the damage above weapons that are stronger on paper like the Dragon Lance.  It is Holy elemental too, but this rarely comes up especially if you're using Spell Blade.   Excalibur does lose some use in the after game of FF5a, when Apocalypse and Ultima Weapon show up, but there's still a large amount of time before that kicks in.  Excalibur deserves notes as being the weapon Gilgamesh thinks he has but totally doesn't.

Final Fantasy 6:  And...we have our first crappy Excalibur.  I get what they were going for; a high end sword with balanced stat boosts, Pearl elemental is rarely a bad thing, and it gives +20% Evade (...which works only in some versions), but honestly this is so meh in FF6.  First off, it's gotten stupid late; getting it from Goddess means you'll have it for maybe 3 more boss fights and then the final boss.  Secondly, an FF6 weapon based entirely on raw attack without any bonuses (save Elemental weakness) is kind of scrubby.   This isn't even factoring in that FF6 has weapons like Illumina running around that just make Excalibur look bad.  Overall, poor showing.  Excalibur gets a 2nd showing in FF6a, through Gilgamesh as one of the summons.  It's a high powered Holy elemental attack MT attack which...well...it's good enough that when it shows up you won't complain, if not the ideal move...basically what I'm saying is "it's not Excalipoor."


...I am not including Knights of the Round technicality for FF7; if you want Knights of the Round with Excalibur, just watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail or something.

Final Fantasy 8: Gilgamesh comes, hits something with Excalibur for damage, it's lower than Masamune because I guess that was based off FF1/2, and then goes away.  I have nothing else to say other than "it's free damage."

Final Fantasy 9:  Excalibur teaches Steiner Climhazzard, an awesome MT attack that deals near max damage that you won't care about because most of what you fight after you get the sword are of the "large sacks of HP" thing and Steiner's basic physical can do that much for less MP anyway, let alone things like Shock exist if you get Ragnarok.  That is actually not Excalibur's use though; Excalibur's real use is that it's deceptively Steiner's best weapon for Non-Speed Runs.  On paper, it should be worse than Ragnarok, but because it's Holy Elemental, Steiner can equip a Holy Elemental boosting equip (which yes, he gets) and that pushes Excalibur to be on the same level as Zidane's Ultima Weapon (which is significantly stronger than Ragnarok.)  As a result, Steiner can now pump out 9k+ damage for low MP costs as opposed to 9999 with high MP costs off his low MP.  Of course, worth noting Steiner's FRUE ULTIMATE!!!! is Excalibur II, which is pretty much exactly what it sounds like: Excalibur but better.   The problem is you likely won't get it because the requirements are stupid.

Final Fantasy 10: Excalibur is Tidus's basic Break Damage Limit weapon.  This basically means you won't get it unless you're lucky enough to see it dropped by Nemesis, or are an idiot and spend time farming Dark Matter to make a custom weapon for Tidus with Break Damage Limit (...look, I've done it myself, so I have every right to call people idiots for doing it because...just shut up.)

Final Fantasy 11: Reading the wiki, it sounds like it's the 1H Sword Relic weapon which...I don't know a damn thing about other than apparently these are stupid hard to get since FF11 hates the idea of you having free time.  Apparently those who use it are Red Mages and Paladins...just like FF3DS...not sure if that has anything to do with anything.

Final Fantasy 12:  Excalibur requires an FAQ to find like most things in this game.  Once you get it, it doesn't seem that special; high powered 2H Sword, sure, but there's better stuff...but like Final Fantasy 9, that Holy Elemental thing kicks in, and with a Holy Strengthening equip (like White Robe), it's suddenly on par with the strongest weapon in the game (Zodiac Spear.)  This makes Excalibur worth grabbing if you have any interest in doing post-game content...except that Yiazmat absorbs Holy and thus hates your life (he's weak to Dark though, so you can use those Ninja Knives for something!!!)

Apparently FF13 lacks an Excalibur...meh, I blame Jihl Fanboys or something.

Final Fantasy 14: Excalibur is the Paladin's Zodiac weapon in it's pen-ultimate stage, with Excalibur Zeta being the ultimate.  It's...basically the best weapon you'll get for level 50, making it the best you'd have gotten before HW appeared and thus made all that hard work pointless!  But who cares, IT'S FREAKING SHINY AND LOOKS COOL SO WORTH GETTING FOR GLAMOUR PURPOSES MWAHAHAHAHA!

Final Fantasy Mystic Quest: This is Benjamin's Strongest weapon and it gives +5 Speed.  So why would you not use it?  Well, Dragon Claw gives +5 Magic so it improves Benjamin's strongest damage, Giant's Axe can hit weakness on things though by that point you don't care, and Mega Grenade is Multi-target.  Basically what I'm saying is FFMQ made all 4 weapons useful.

Final Fantasy Tactics: So...how do you make a weapon stupid broken?  Give it high attack, Auto Haste, have it absorb one element and strengthen that same element, the element in question being the one commonly used in Math Skill, and then make this weapon usable by Swordskillers who can give it's Brave mechanics the finger, the Main Character who is likely going to have maxed Brave, and the optional character who relies on a skillset that doesn't give a rats ass about Attack, mostly just spams status....and it's just handed to you for free when you get far enough into the game, on the character who has excellent stats and moveset to back it up.   Oh, and Balthier can use it too, as can Luso who is "a clone of the Main Character I just mentioned" (except with Male stats instead of "best of both worlds.") Yeah, Excalibur in FFT is stupid amazing.  It feels like it may have been balanced if it was legitimately usable only by Knights, because they're so flawed that an amazing weapon like this might balance out, but you get so many alternatives in special PCs, it's hard to hide the fact that this weapon is stupid good.  I don't really have anything to say other than if you aren't doing a theme based game or a challenge, not using this weapon is a bad idea!

Final Fantasy 10-2: While this game lacks weapons, FF10-2 found a way to get the likes of Excalibur and a few other FF Mainstays in.  In this case, the Warrior's strongest attack is called Excalibur, which is also Holy Elemental.  Not much else to say other than that.

Final Fantasy 13-2: Giglamesh uses this weapon on you.  Allegedly it's design is based off the FF9 version and he stole it from Alexandria but I'm looking directly at both weapons and they don't really look the same at all, so I'm calling bollocks and that FF13-2's Ultimania was trying to explain something that really shouldn't have been explained and doesn't even begin to fit at all.  No, sorry Ultmania writers; this is a completely new design for Excalibur and the weapon never had a consistent design, don't pretend it's something it's not.  And it's not Excalibur 2, since that's basically "Excalibur but Green" and looks LESS like the weapon.
(yes, I am bitter about such nonsense, deal with it.)

Lightning Returns: Apparently it's a DLC weapon; looking at it's stats, it seems to be kind of...meager.  I seem to recall weapon attacks ending over 500 come endgame or some such, and it has 280, though it has healing which is kind of a big deal in this game, but meh, the fact that it's a DLC weapon and doesn't seem super awesome is...I don't know where I'm going with this.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance:  A weapon you can get from one of the bosses that teaches Holy Blade to a Paladin.  Looking at it's stats, it seems to be one of the strongest, but it's way behind the 2 strongest...which fittingly enough one of them is Excalibur 2.  I don't have much else to say here, I don't remember FFTA well enough.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2: ...seems be basically the same thing as FFTA1, only Excalibur 2 doesn't exist, I'm not repeating myself here as a result.

Final Fantasy 4 Heroes of Light:  It's basically the best weapon in the game, gotten when you do a 90 Floor dungeon and get to the bottom and...wait why am I talking about this game no one cares about? NEXT!

Bravely Default: When I stole this weapon from Braev, I was all "AWESOME! Excalibur! That'll kick ass!"  I was dissapointed to learn it's weaker than the best sword you can buy in Norende, and there are other swords, weapons, etc. you can find hanging around that are overall better.  So really, it's just a late game sword with Holy elemental (I think), and not really worth a whole lot.


And thus ends probably the least interesting update thus far!  I swear, next one will involve something actually worth analyzing but I felt like I could do something different!
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2015, 04:27:39 AM »
And finally back to doing this topic and the next class because it occurred to me I'm lazy and should be getting back to it.  This next one I'll just go straight in and not be a teasing jackass about it:



White Mage

The original and most well known healing job from the franchise, and synonymous with the "Healing Magic Class" when referring to the role outside of it, White Mage is pretty straight forward in what determines it.  It uses lots of Healing and Defensive spells, usually has limited offense until endgame where Holy appears and suddenly they're actually quite competent at it, low defenses though better than Black Mages, and wields staves.  Look, it's the White Mage; you know what they do, and what identifies as them, so without further ado...ANALYSES!!!

Final Fantasy 1 (NES/Origins):  White Mage runs into a similar problem that Black Mage has here, namely "Red Mage does most of what White Mage does and a lot more."  To White Mage's credit, more MP is meaningful here, and Harm is better for busting Undead than Fire...by which I mean Harm 1 vs. Fire 1; I'd be lying if I said the Harm series > the Fire series, that's clearly wrong with the 2nd and 3rd versions of the spells.  White Mage starts the game actually not too bad offensively because Hammers are alright, but this really doesn't last.  One thing White Mage does have on Red Mage though is access to Life before promoting, which is a handy bonus for Earth Cave through Ordeals.   They also get Life 2 when promoting to White Wizards for a utility Red Wizard doesn't have at all.  The problem is these utilities are either short lived, gotten too late, or far too limited.  It's not as one sided as Black Mage vs. Red Mage was, but it's still an uphill battle for White Mage nonetheless here.

Final Fantasy 1 (Dawn of Souls/PSP):  Remember how I said the new magic system greatly benefited the Mages here?  Yeah, White Mage is a lot better here.  As I noted, Int doing something means White Mage's healing is suddenly substantially better than Red Mage's, which can be crucial against some bosses.  Having an MP system means the access to the higher spells is more meaningful, though Phoenix Downs do make Life less meaningful, but Full Life is still extremely handy for Mid-Battle of course, and unreplace-able.  Item Casting running off Int makes White Mage better as well since they can do it better than Non-Black mages, giving them reasonable offense with stuff like the Mage Staff.  The last significant advantage they gained? A high HP score.    For the first half of the game, White Mage has your 2nd best HP behind Warrior, which I know sounds weird, but it's true.  Second half of the game, Grandmaster goes on a crazy HP hike and will likely surpass them, but they'll still have a solid score and not be far from the 999 HP cap, which combined with Ultima Weapon if you get it, gives them a good weapon!  Overall, like Black Mage, greatly improved compared to their original selves.

Final Fantasy 2 (NES/Origins): Minwu is like the sole character in FF2 with an identifiable class classification...well, ok, there's Josef, but shh!  He joins with a crap ton of White Magic at good levels, getting basically everything but Holy, has high magic stats, and...yeah, you get the idea.  Minwu is really good too, though this is mostly because he's built very Jagen-like.  Before he joins, you have a brief segment in Fynn which barely counts as a dungeon, then he joins to basically help baby your low level team until they get something resembling competence.  he has some unintuitive tricks like the Swap trick, Teleport for instant death, and...ok that's it but point is he's good!

Final Fantasy 2 (Dawn of Souls/PSP): I'm just going to cover his aftergame appearance because his main game appearance is basically unchanged.  Minwu basically makes the first half of Soul of Rebirth bare-able because of all the support spells; it's very possible you have 3 characters with under-developed gear (Scott always joins with full Mithril set) due to FF4 "unequip all temps!" mindset, so Minwu having all that magic is handy.  He also gets Ultima as a unique spell, which given how many spells he knows and their levels, he can get passable damage out of it.  Yeah, I got nothing more to say beyond that...

Final Fantasy 3 (NES):  White Mage starts the game being kind of really bad.  Remember how I initially said Black Mage is meaningless at first because Red Mage does it?  Yeah, I was misguided; White Mage is the one who suffers.  The Spell Charge advantage White Mage has on Red Mage is meaningless early game, and while this is true with Black Mage, Black Mage can at least do meaningful things when it runs out of MP due to equipping bows, something White Mage cannot do.  Also Magic Damage difference is more meaningful than Healing.  Of course, this doesn't last; after you get to Dragon Mountain, the MP differences start to show up, Item Casting Staves show up to give White Mage something resembling offense (which still sucks but better than nothing), and Aero is a pretty damn awesome spell (it's almost as strong as Fire 2 and ilk, despite being 1 level weaker, and runs off White Mage's good stat.)  By this point, you'll want to keep White Mage as a permanent staple, because healing is just too valuable.  Even if healing isn't as strong as you'd like, the higher level spells give a huge sense of longevity, and this applies all the way through the Shaman arc.  Obviously, Shaman gets 100% obsoleted by Sage, but Sage is an Uber Super Awesome Job meant to obsolete all mages, so not really fair.  White Mage also has some nifty status moves like Confuse, and at higher JLevels, stuff like Toad can be legitimate accurate status.

Final Fantasy 3 (DS): White Mage's healing got a huge boost here, and it's damage is better due to Item Casting being more potent, and being able to use Rods to cast Aras.  Problems?  Red Mage is a lot better this time around, so legitimate competition.  You have to choose between stronger healing off higher MP or a job that can do significantly more damage and have higher defensive builds thanks to shields.  Also stuff like Scholar exist to make Items better, and has a small stock of low level healing (...which doesn't replace white Mage, make no mistake, so you could totally skip this!), and all that.  Devout is...basically White mage plus; they tried to make it have a flaw relative to white mage by getting less Low Level spell charges, but seriously, whose going to care about more Cures and Curas when you'll never use anything below Curaga in-battle, every Boss Fight restores your MP so the Cure and Curas you have for Out of Battle healing are meaningless extras on White Mage, etc.  It has competition with Sage, who has less healing but has something approaching offense, and a consistently built Red Mage is surprisingly potent, but Devout is definitely a job you'll want to seriously consider using just for healing purposes against the endgame arc.

Final Fantasy 4 (2D versions):  Rosa and Porom are basically interchange-able here.  In original versions, the two had no overlap, and in Advance version, the difference is basically "Rosa has more HP, Porom has higher magic stats, and better equipment" leading up to essentially "face it, you want one of these characters in your team...though not both, that's probably a bit redundant."  That aside, how are they?  Honestly, I've always felt the Healers in FF4 were a bit lackluster until Curaga is gotten.  Part of this is the section where Cure would be good, Cecil's basically unkillable, and the other characters are so squishy, healing doesn't go very far.  Cura from Rosa should be great when you first get it, but it's such a short section, you won't notice it.  Porom gets Cure at a reasonable point, but she's high on the list of "likely to die" and then Tellah gets his large array of spells...off low MP.  Then you lose Porom, and this would be the segment where Cura would be good except for a few problems, big one being your main healer is Tellah...do I have to say what Tellah's problems are?  Rosa finally joins, but by then, Cura is starting to notably lag, she really works best as a battery healer.  Curaga is when a spell finally shows up on a character you have for a decent length of time with actual stats to use it, that can keep up with enemy damage.  From here, Rosa (and later Porom) is pretty competent at her job, and then she learns Holy, and thus gets actual offense if you don't mind blowing away MP.  Oh, they also get status, which is cool except FF4 status is so unreliable given enemies seem to immune it so much.  Protect/Shell are good early game, but lose meaning later on given the additive bonuses in a subtraction system, Haste isn't as effective it should be on paper though Slow is actually fairly good, and Reflect can be handy in a handful of fights...and Dispel is awful because some genius decided to make Dispel REFLECTABLE.

Final Fantasy 4 (DS):  Healing in this game got hit with a major buff, to the point where even Cecil's in-battle healing can sometimes be meaningful.  Protect and Shell also became way better, sometimes crucial (hi CPU!) because of a percentage damage reduction.  Add in how Rosa has high Magic Defense due to high Mind stat and mage gear, in a game where Magic Defense differences are huge and Rosa's somewhat better...though they killed all her physical durability by the same notion and felt it necessary to kill her HP stat.  On the upside, Pray is actually really good now, being % HP *AND* MP healing rather than a laughable free move.  Downsides?  Her status is worthless, outside of Slow, and her charge times can be a big pain.  On top of that, Salve exists and combined with the Double Healing Augment, Rosa's more replace-able by someone like Kain throwing MT X-potions, despite the superior healing compared to the 2D version.


Final Fantasy 5: So remember how I said White Mage in FF3o had this issue of competing directly with Red Mage at first and is worse?  Yeah, something very similar happens here but starts off later since Red Mage doesn't exist at first, and lasts way longer because it's not until World 2 where White Mage gets meaningful advantages.  Honestly, White Mage has issues after early game for a large part of FF5 because Healing feels underwhelming, Red Mage can be an ample substitute while also having real offense (again, Offense difference between Red Mage and Black Mage is significantly greater than Healing difference between Red Mage and White Mage), and there's little incentive to use White Mage for skills because Red Mage gives you most of the same stuff AND Black Magic alongside it.  Then you get to Moore, and White Mage learns Curaga, and suddenly White Mage is unparalleled at the whole "healing your team" thing.  That spell alone really keeps them afloat, but they still get a few nice things later on, like Arise (albeit the existence of Phoenix mitigates this, but Phoenix isn't on a skillset with adequate healing so...) and Holy.  So really White Mage is kind of forgettable outside of some situation-ally useful Level 4 spells once Red Mage pops up, then you get to Moore, and you suddenly really appreciate them and their skillset. 

Final Fantasy 9: First off, no, I am not treating Aerith as a White Mage because she gets Healing limits.  Got that?  Good!  Ok, FF9 is weird because you have two White Mages who are also Summoners...I'd focus on Eiko because she's clearly the character focused more on the White Mage aspect while Garnet is focused more on the summoner one.  Heck, when you look at the two, 2 of Eiko's summons are support based (Carbuncle and Phoenix), and while Garnet gets magical nukes, except for one problem: I claimed FF9 has only 4 classifications and I'd be going against that to do that.  The classification here is both Eiko and Garnet fall under "Healer."  They have differences but in the end, you're most likely using one of them for their healing, which is really damned good in this game (Cura can actually last you until basically the final dungeon, which is about when Garnet finally learns Curaga, so the fact that she's behind Eiko on healing spells isn't a big deal), and they both have reasonable levels of offense, thanks to summons (and Holy in Eiko's case.)  I guess I could cover their non-healing things...which suck.  Might is a waste of a turn since the damage buff is probably better spent just doing damage outright, Haste, Protect, etc. don't last long enough and are single target, Garnet's status spells have accuracy issues, so really you'll just be spamming their healing and Life spells, with occasional offense tossed in.  Another aspect worth pointing out is how FF9 Phoenix Downs really suck in battle, where as Life spells are significantly better, so the Resurrection element is even more meaningful. 

Final Fantasy 10: Again, we have a White Mage Summoner.  I'm going to focus entirely on the "if Yuna was only a White Mage" thing because her being a summoner is cheating.  Also you can replicate that effect by sending Kimhari down Yuna's grid which is the White Mage grid.  So what does Yuna have?  Good speed, evasion, hates actually being hit with physicals, high magic defense and game best Magic.  Her healing is pure ST (unless you count Pray, which works as a "Free Action for AP"), but it's effective enough, and Rikku can supplement on MT.  Protect and Shell are very handy to have, and the Nul-spells can be useful when used strategically.  Then she gets Holy and OH LOOK MORE OFFENSE THAN EVERYONE ELSE!  Overall, despite having limitations prior games didn't have on White Mages, Yuna's actually very good at her job, and Aeons were basically just unfair overkill.

Final Fantasy 11: ...White Mage exists, I know jack and shit about it here...

Final Fantasy 12 Zodiac International Job System: White Mage gets all the White Magic spells which is kind of a really big deal.  There's so many spells you'll want to cast from it like Protect, Shell, Cure series, etc.  True, some other jobs get it like Knight gets Curaja, or Monk gets Arise, but to have all the necessities on one character just helps with the Micromanaging so much, and for that reason alone you'll probably want to keep one.  They also learn all Green Magic spells meaning they get stuff like Bubble as well.  They do look offensively poor though; no offensive magic until Holy (unless you count Drain), their only weapon class is Rods which can't do damage until late when they can use early Greatswords which is something, and yeah.  They're a pure utility job and a seemingly very good one on paper.

Final Fantasy 14:  The Conjurer/White Mage is one of your healing jobs, of which there are three, and most importantly, Conjurer is literally the only Classified Healer before Level 30, as Arcanist (class that leads to Scholar) is classified as DPS, so especially valuable for earlier sections (...ok, level syncing Scholars exist but shut up.)  Compared to Scholar, White Mage's big thing is just having a lot of tools for healing; it also brings Protect for a long term buff, and Stoneskin for that artificial HP Boost, though both can be cross-classed, Conjurer gets credit for providing those skills.  White Mage's thing is relying heavily on raw HP healing, contrast to Scholar which is usually Healing + Damage mitigation combo.  Someone once pointed out the difference is essentially "White Mage is overkill healing, Scholar is a lot of bag of tricks."  White Mage also has MT Healing which is good emergency move, but only emergency because pricey, and raises Aggro a lot and your healer is the last person you want getting aggro.  For offense?  Well, White Mage is better than you think; Cleric Stance allows it to sacrifice healing for better offense, it gets 2 DoT spells in Aero spells, it's water spell is free damage that cna piss off melee characters because it launches enemies, thus only useful when solo, and Stone spells are B&B damage spells.  Holy is also a great AoE spell with high damage and Stunning everyone, but only worthwhile if you can hit a lot, and not good if you need resources since pricey.  Overall, White Mage is a very effective Healer, though it's variety isn't as interesting as other jobs.

Final Fantasy Tactics:  Priests or White Mages or Those Guys And Girls In White Hoods Who Wield Staves are...well...healers.  The big thing White Magic has overall is Holy is the best Math Skill spell in the game!  Also Priests are the fastest Mage class, but has the lowest MA.  Cure spells are fine for ranged healing though Summoner getting Moogle mitigates the need for this, Raise is an alternative to Phoenix Down that restores more health but can miss, so it's not great for the whole "reset the counter" aspect, plus falters on low Faith units.  That's an issue Priests run into in general; they're not effective healers on low faith. 

Final Tactics Advance 1 and 2: I remember them existing and having healing but damned if I can remember how effective they are!  Just listing this here because completionism.

Final Fantasy 10-2:  Well, one quirk White Mage has is it's stupid easy to raise thanks to Pray counting as an action towards learning others.  They also can't really do much else but spam healing, but hey, this is FF10-2; you put jobs that can do that on your Dress-sphere and swap according to what you need.  What doesn't help, however, is the existence of Chemist, a class that can fill the same niche and generally does it better.  Now I know there's a late game accessory that makes MP costs kind of die and thus turns White Mage into a faster version of Mega Potion spamming, but generally Chemist is just easier to use, and once you get it, you have little reason to care about White Mage.

Final Fantasy 4 The After Years: To be blunt, you'll want Rosa or Porom in your team in the 2nd half of the game because not only is healing really useful, but White Magic has a bunch of necessary assist spells too.  See, Edward w/ the Item Doubling Ring can be a good healer, but he's only a healer.  Kain and Ceodore get Haste and Blink, notable support spells, but they don't get actual healing, and none of them have Slow, another handy spell.  White Mages get the best of both worlds, and have the resources to use them.  Rosa vs. Porom is not really an argument worth discussing since, like in FF4a with those two as well as FF9's Garnet vs. Eiko, you'll want to use at least one or the other.  There is a 3rd White Mage of sorts in the form of Lenora, but she's basically the Leonardo of White Mages (...odd how the names are similar) if Rosa and Porom were the Shinon and Rolf.  She has lower HP, learns spells at a worse rate, and has to play more catch up, and even when caught up, she's still not good.  SHE CAN LEARN BLACK MAGIC THOUGH! ...which matters for all of Aspir seeing as Porom and Rosa learn Holy before Lenora will get any meaningful Black Magic, defeating the purpose.  Yeah, you basically just pretend Lenora isn't there and rely on Porom or Rosa for the late game stuff, because they're just better at the job.

Final Fantasy 4 Heroes of Light: Oh look, a job FF4HoL wasn't afraid to use the common name of!  Anyway, White Mage's thing is basically "I can cast White Magic for 1 less AP" and that's basically it.   It gets tricks that let healing spells work better, Hide which is a bard mode, and...you know what no one cares about this game.  I could talk about Turkey Salad for the rest of this paragraph and no one would notice the difference.

Bravely Default: White Mage is possibly the single most valuable job in the entire game.  For starters, White Magic healing is exceedingly valuable because there's really little comparable to it.  You'll want at least one character in the team with a good Mind stat and up to date White Magic at all times just for that reason.  Then you realize White Mage has a few other perks, a big one is Angelic Ward, namely a 1 slot skill that randomly halves incoming damage 50% of the time, which for the less math savvy people, means basically a 25% durability increase.  Add in utility like MT Status healing with Esunaga, and Protect/Shell for some defensive buffs, really you'd be crazy to not be running at least one character with the White Magic skillset at all times.  Generally speaking, White Magic is a good fallback for any character who isn't necessarily needing a 2nd skillset, just because the amount of utility it provides is invaluable.

Next up, I pick...yet another Final Fantasy 1 Class because we're not going on beyond that until it's all finished.  ALL HAIL THE OG JOBS or something. 
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2015, 04:49:38 AM »
For what it's worth FF5 White Mage does have a meaningful advantage over Red Mage in W1, that being Esuna, which is a L4 spell gained at the tail end of Karnak. It's extremely helpful against Soul Cannon in particular, since it's the only way to cure Old. Still generally your assessment of the class in FF5 is correct.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2015, 01:36:07 PM »
I remember Esuna in W1 being a thing, but didn't remember it being meaningful, though I'll take your word for it.
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superaielman

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2015, 06:00:49 PM »
FF1: White Mage has one other advantage: the class is useful against Chaos, if only for wall. It's still a pretty terrible class, but hey.

FF4: Disagree with Rosa=Porom. Porom is pretty scrubby for the 4o arc, and in 4a she still has a much smaller pool of HP. That matters less in the aftergame, but I still find Rosa to be much better till then.


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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2015, 08:55:55 PM »
FF1NES: I would agree that RM > WM, but I think that RM+WM >> 2xRM in practice for casual play.

There's two reasons for this.  For one, as Meeple mentioned, having access to LIFE before class change is a Big Deal, considering the Ice Cave.  WM's advantages would still begin to fall off after class change but for one more factor: if we're arguing theoretically optimal parties in FF1, it's pretty much between 2xFI/2xRM and 2xFI/RM/WM, and the cold fact of the matter is that there aren't 4 endgame-quality swords in the game - one fighter gets Masamune, one gets Excalibur, one Red Mage gets Defender IIRC, and the fourth member is screwed.  So in light of that, ultimately the second RM and the WM end up with identical offense: itemcasting LIT2 forever.

However, it's not a clear-cut scenario, since 2xRM has notably better offense than RM+WM in the pre-class change game.  Thus it does make for an actually interesting tradeoff.

FF12 IZJS: Rods are actually pretty decent damage in the early game and early mid game, then they start falling off once the high-end storebought weapons start appearing.  They're still notable for being able to hit flyers in IZJS, at least.

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2015, 09:08:47 PM »
There's also the Sun Sword, which is about on par with the Defender (more Atk, less Hit), and Ice Brands aren't much worse anyway; all of them allow notably more ST damage than itemcast Ice 2 (let alone Bolt 2). It's true that itemcasts are cool and help WM close the offensive gap, though.

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hinode

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2015, 10:20:28 PM »
As a general comment, I find White Magic in games with large MP pools (so not FF1o, obviously) a nice safety buffer to be a nice safety buffer for initial runs when I still get lost in dungeons, be overly conservative with offensive resources because I don't know where the boss is (or how much HP it has), etc. WM was significantly more valuable for me in my first playthroughs of both FF4 and FF5 than in subsequent runs (and with FF5 I've done lots of SCCs with no WM at all).

FF5: WM also faces stiff competition for a long time from the Healing Staff, which is basically an infinite ST Cura for Summoner, Time Mage, or Red Mage. Free itemswitching in-battle means you aren't sacrificing any damage for this, either.

That said, since secondary skills exist and the longterm payoff for investing in White Mage is definately good, I tend to work the class into my party rotation a fair amount even before Moore, even if it's generally not an optimal pick in a vacuum. Not hard to find room for White Magic as a secondary somewhere, and it takes way less AP to get White Magic Lv 3 or even Lv4 learned than Red Magic Lv 3.

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2015, 01:30:52 AM »
The Healing Staff doesn't have the MT option (which is what you'll be wanting against various W1 bosses who use MT attacks) and it doesn't have Raise (a spell which somehow costs less than a single Phoenix Down), either. It also can't be used for out-of-battle healing. It's cool and all but I don't think it terribly devalues White/Red. On a "normal" run of FF5 (i.e. not a challenge run, but not breaking the game with every obscure boss status hole either) I'd be pretty surprised if someone didn't use one of White or Red in W1, myself.

One interesting contrast between FF5 and various other games like it (Bravely Default and Final Fantasy Dimensions are the most obvious, but things like FFT apply here too) is that other classes can use White Magic at virtually no loss of performance (Sage Staff Holy concerns aside, the only thing you lose is a small amount of magic/MP, and only if your White level is lower than L6). This both increases the value of white magic and decreases the value of White Mage as a carrier in FF5, compared to the other games. That said, I wouldn't call White Magic's value at its highest in FF5 just because the game doesn't call for copious amounts of MT healing as much as BD or FFD do, for instance; fiestas prove that you can often get by without.

Protect and Shell are two other tools in the white magic skillset which vary a lot in use (Meeple's comments touch on this). Out of the games where white magic is actually a thing, FF5's Protect/Shell stand near the top in terms of power, halving damage (or better!) and also reducing magical status odds, while being permanent (dispel aside, and dispel is extraordinarily rare in FF5, and only ST when it does exist). Shell is the difference between a 1600 damage Almagest and a 700 damage one, Protect is somewhat less valuable since physicals are easier to spoil in various ways but still good. Relatively speaking they're much less potent in games prior to FF5, and their duration wrecks them in FF9 (and to a lesser extent FFT, though there it's more the short length of FFT's battles at work). They're... okay in BD, but on HM at least I didn't find them that potent in the time before Performer obsoletes them. FFX is certainly the game where they're next most potent after FF5 (considering games with proper "white mages" only), though FFX bosses are much more built with positive status in mind than most games in the series so dispel/instant death/etc. to get around them are concerns. They're still great, though.

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hinode

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2015, 02:10:05 AM »
My kneejerk is FF3 or FF4 for White Magic's peak value in the main series, trying to rely on item based healing alone in either feels like it'd be infinitely more painful than in FF5 with its status loopholes and often easily blitzed bosses. Rough guess is that 3 would be the worse of the two, since Sylph exists at least. Eventually.

I guess this conversation raises the point that while While Mage itself is a subpar class for much of the game due to lack of rods/daggers once you realize how element strengthening works, White Magic itself is a pretty cheap secondary option for much of the game (just 60 AP for L3) with no real downsides vs using a WM proper, a niche in which Red Magic can't hope to compete (160 AP for Lv 3 Red, yikes). Red Mage is pretty much limited to a carrier in FF5, a role in which I have a lot of issues with it that I'll bring up when Meeple gets around to them.

My kneejerk is that FFT is a game where White Magic is generally better off on a different mage class; slightly above average speed is often not great with FFT charge times (though admittedly less of a problem with healing/supportive stuff) whereas the higher MA multiplier on other mage classes is pretty much always helpful for both Cure spells and Holy. Rod-wielding classes get better +MA equips than Priests do, for that matter. Oh, and Priests have a weirdly high PA multiplier for a mage class that does basically nothing for them, not even relevant for staff pokes. Best use I could ever think of for it was Geomancy secondary with a Mace of Zeus but that is totally a gimmick.

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2015, 02:50:07 AM »
I want to call out how amazing White Magic is in FF8.  30 AP after you get Siren you should refine Tents into Curagas and then be able to spam Limits while in a safe health range and that will last roughly 3/4 of the game as a perfectly viable strategy.  Oh did you take damage?  Use one of your highly available over healing spells.

Which is to say, White Magic isn't good, Curaga is good and it is available half an hour into the game.  Also Protect and Shell aren't bad in FF8 either, but lol who cares.  They (along with Reflect) also are pretty sweet Junction bait if you want to never die since Vit and Spirit scaling are dumb especially with aforementioned HP pools).

I kind of disagree on the FF5 statements.  I think Red and Red Mage are no where near as powerful or relevant in my experience, the short term gains of White + something else versus Red + something else (or piggy backing something off RM to use it as a carrier and get AP for Dual Cast) isn't worth the opportunity cost in my experience.  I would much rather pinball someone between Black/Summon/Time and White than spend time in Red in World 1.  As a late game carry to sink in the 1500+ JP you need for Dual Cast it is a bit more tolerable (since its a much lower % of the game).  Even if it isn't FF7 level white magic, the healing in FF5 is still pretty representative of FF healing, it is strong and efficient.
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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2015, 03:29:39 AM »
Quote
FF4: Disagree with Rosa=Porom. Porom is pretty scrubby for the 4o arc, and in 4a she still has a much smaller pool of HP. That matters less in the aftergame, but I still find Rosa to be much better till then.

I covered that White Mages are pretty blech during the early parts, because White Magic isn't really good until Curaga, and the segment Cura would be fine at, you don't have a proper White Mage, just Tellah who has resource issues, and Cecil whose stats aren't anywhere near good enough to be workable.

And I completely disagree that Rosa is "much better" until the after-game.  A big thing Porom has, and this matters way more than the HP on average, is resistance against all 3 elements without using a Protect Ring.  Rosa's HP actually comes up against one fight on average, and that's Zeromus.  Porom's ability to resist all 3 elements?  Matters the entire dungeon.  You have only 2 Protect Rings, and potentially 4 characters slots over them, turning that into only 3 is kind of a significant detail.  Porom's also got a significant speed edge on Rosa, both because of a notable speed advantage but higher Will makes her magic come off faster. 

That HP Pool really isn't notable outside of Zeromus.  I think there's like one boss that uses Non MHP Gravity (as in, Ogopogo doesn't count) on you, and it's Dark Bahamut, who on average, 2 shots both Rosa and Porom anyway.  True, his opening Mega Flare runs risk of possibly killing her, though chances are with her Game Best Magic Defense, and game best Magic Evasion, the RNG will likely fall on the lower side of things for her.

I'm not saying she's better than Rosa, I'm saying you're really selling her short.  Heck, after game, the only thing I see Porom gets is a further speed bonus on Rosa.  Either way, Porom has legitimate advantages, just saying "Rosa is better because HP, end argument" feels close minded, seeing as in most scenarios, Porom has things to supplement or it's mostly a non-factor.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2015, 06:15:24 AM »
DLCon's coming, so I'm sneaking one of these in right before it starts!



NINJA

You tell me a better SNEAKY UPDATE job? A job that has been around since the beginning of the franchise, even though it wasn't one of the main 6 because promotions exist.  Often characterized by high speed, Ninja-knives, being able to throw things, sometimes Ninja Magic, and often middling to lowish durability.  Without further ado, here's the NINJA Analysis.


Final Fantasy 1 (NES/Origins): Ninja first appeared as a promoted version of Thief, as a result, just like Thief, I will only look at Ninja's worth as Ninja, NOT as Thief.  Unlike Thief, though, that does have to be taken into account, because you can't get to Ninja without suffering through Thief, so it's worth is hurt notably by this.  Ninja's big thing is being able to use just about any weapon save Excalibur, has a defense stat that's actually not half-bad, and can use up to level 4 Black Magic, which is meaningful since he gets Fast.  Sounds pretty good right?  On paper, sure, but there's a number of problems.  While Ninja is the only one with a defensive stat worth a damn besides Knight, the difference between Ninja and Knight is kind of major so it's still a huge drop in durability.  Likewise, the offensive drop is pretty darn big too, especially when Excalibur enters in; Katana was suppose to be similar but crit rates don't work that way sadly.  More to the point, Red Wizard is capable of doing most of what Ninja can do, is capable of doing it way earlier, doesn't require the assy Thief, and trades in durability for a large number of White Magic spells (like Life), and a few more Black Magic spells like level 3's.  While the two can be comparable, in the end, Red Wizard doesn't require a really crappy class for half the game, Ninja does, and that alone just kind of kills any incentive to use Ninja.

Final Fantasy 1 (Dawn of Souls/PSP): Just like Thief, Ninja got buffed.  Hitting more times than Knight while using a lot of the same weapons means his damage is generally better, at the cost of durability.  Add in how Temper actually works in this game, and more defensive gear that he actually shares with Knight (like Genji stuff) and suddenly Ninja works as an interesting alternative to Knight.  Also the Dawn of Souls dungeons means more weapons for Ninja to use, such like Muramasa is closer to Knight's Ragnarok than Sasuke's Katana is to Excalibur, meaning the weapon advantage endgame isn't as big.  So a combination of Thief not totally embarasing himself, and Ninja getting some mild buffs, it's actually worth it.

Final Fantasy 3 (NES): Ninja is the ultimate physical jobs.  There's really not much else to say; it can use everything without the word "Onion", has highest stats of all Physical Jobs, and the precursor of Throw exists in this via Shurikens, an expendable you can equip 2 at a time (one in each hand) that do more damage than just about any other weapon in the game.  Kind of pointless to say much else because, well, "Ultimate Physical Job, and game doesn't pretend anything else" speaks for itself.

Final Fantasy 3 (DS):  Ninja here is comparable to Black Belt in that it's meant to be a Thief upgrade of sorts that is hindered by lack of Job Levels.  Except for one major difference, that being Ninja doesn't suck.  See, Black Belt NEEDS JLevels to not suck, and it doesn't have them.  Ninja actually has the stats to get away without them, and compared to Thief, it gets access to Dark Swords, giving him a weapon advantage to offset the JLevel advantage some, keeping the two comparable.  Another major point in Ninja's favor is access to Genji equips, making it way more durable than Thief, at least before Crystal Tower and the Fuma Garb kicks in.  Another perk Ninja has going for it is Throwing Shurikens, handy for Bosses as it means it can jump in Back Row, and still deal notable damage, something very few Jobs can do without sacrificing something, an especially nice perk with Genji Shield allowing for a durability push without sacrificing offense. 

Final Fantasy 4 (2D versions): Edge is...er...Edge.  He's fast, but the speed only goes so far because of the wacky ATB.  He's got a basic physical, which is...a basic physical.  He can use Claws for status which are cool, but don't really come up unless you plan ahead with them, or do Sylph Cave ASAP.  Ninja magic helps compliment Rydia for screen clearing but his lack of MP and the fact that Flame sucks (Flood and Blitz are notably better) makes it limited.  Throw is cool...for the final boss because you don't get enough ammo and Fumas are too expensive to be worth on anything else.  He gets durability...in the final dungeon.  Yeah, Edge is kind of just there until late game where he finally picks up, since he doesn't really have much to stand out, but he also has notable flaws.

Final Fantasy 4 (3D versions): Well, the game did make Shurikens store-bought and cheap much earlier, so he can spam those from Back Row! The damage is disappointing.  He got a whole bunch of new elemental spells! ...in a game where Int matters more than ever, weakness hitting sucks, and the multipliers aren't very good.  Yeah, I'm just going to say Edge hasn't really changed much, going a lateral shift.  Oh yeah, he lost access to claws, which hurts in a number of ways, and the mage Masher strategy I failed mention earlier is kind of worthless since species weakness is 1.5x damage instead of 4x.

Final Fantasy 5: Tied for #2 in Speed and having Dual Wield, Ninja is a job definitely worth mastering if only because both of those are things you'll want out of Freelancer, especially if you don't invest in Thief (...though, investing in Mystic Knight or Gladiator merits the former pointless but shh!)  Dual Wield makes Ninja one of your better physical damage dealers for a long time, especially if you hand it an Equip Skill, and Ninja Knives and the Dual Lance give it actual weapons so it doesn't rely on Daggers (which are admittedly better than you'd expect), and Throw can deal some really nice damage on occasion, especially when you factor in how good Scrolls are overall.  A solid Job, in the grand scheme of things.  Oh yeah, they can use Boomerangs for back row damage if you care.

Final Fantasy 6: Shadow is the FF Ninja.  Shadow on paper should be amazing in the WoB.  Throw Shuriken does more damage than Edgar's Drill, and is targettable, and is dirt cheap, Skeans are fantastic MT damage, and Interceptor can even sneak in extra damage if the enemy doesn't fly.  The problem is Shadow basically doesn't exist for most of the WoB, and one of the times he does (Zozo) he's a liability due to randomly leaving, on top of costing you money.  WoR, Shadow's not quite as good since Skeans aren't as strong (though, they'll last you a while), and others can match Throw Ninja Star and such, albeit, being able to target his damage is a nice perk compared to things like Bum Rush, and it's consistent unlike Setzer's Fixed Dice.  His equipment is meager but not horrible, he can use Thief Knife to be a makeshift thief (no, I didn't forget this on Edge, it's just FF4 Steal is LAUGHABLY BAD), which is also probably his best weapon (pre-Dragon's Den), and he's not as frail as you'd think (...outside of the DL <.<; ).  Overall, he's a pretty average character who looks a lot better on paper than he is.  I do think it's odd Shadow can't use Boomerangs but I guess they wanted to keep it a niche for Locke.

Final Fantasy 7: ...I'm just listing Yuffie for the sake of completion.  She's called a Ninja in game because Wutai, comes with Throw, her weapon is a Shuriken/Boomerang/etc., and her stats are similar to a Ninja.   I'm ending it here because I'm reaching now because seriously, it's FF7!

Final Fantasy 9: Armarant...shouldn't count as a Ninja.  The only thing he has in common is Throw; otherwise, his stats and skillset are more reminiscent of Monk, so I'm more noting this just to explain why I'm skipping him!

Final Fantasy 11: Ninjas were a tank class here because of an exploit unintended that Square-enix just kind of rolled with, allowing for an evasion tank.  Yeah, not really intuitive, but that's all I know about the darn things.

Final Fantasy 14: Ninjas are a DPS Job from Rogue and I know jack and all about them.  Someone whose played FF14 as a Ninja, please fill in the gaps because **** if I can.

Final Fantasy 4TAY: So...Edge is a lot better in this game.  His magic is meaningful, he gets better weapons to work with (or more accurately, weapon competition is lesser from the higher end stuff such that he performs better), gets a mild healing spell, ATB is less ****ed so his speed is meaningful, etc.  He's one of the better characters in the game certainly.  The same cannot be said for his sentai team.  Ok, I'll give credit to Gekkou; he gets a reasonable weapon in Axes, has a nice high HP score which makes him good for tanking those meteors in the face and he gets a watered down version of throw that's good enough for these purposes.  The other three?  Are just inferior versions of another character, be it a lesser healer, lesser mage, and lesser Kain...and these are significant. 

Final Fantasy Tactics: When it comes to Physical jobs in FFT, there's very few actually worthwhile generics.  Ninja is among those.  Boasting amazing speed, Two Swords, high move and jump, and a ranged attack to compliment, Ninja is an ideal physical job.  Giving it Martial Arts on a good Brave unit can yield some monstrously devestating results.  On top of that, it even offers some neat perks like Abandon for a Brave-less reaction that works well with a feather mantle or a shield, or 2 Swords because...well...2 Swords.  If you're using a physical job in FFT, chances are you'll want to invest at least SOME time in Ninja, because it's pretty darn good.

Bravely Default: High speed, evasion based Job that gets Dual Wield to mitigate the penalty of dual wielding.  That's pretty much Ninja in a nutshell!  Well no, I should note what makes these things good or not.  Dual Wielding has this cool perk that it means you get 2 Specials (or double the credit for a single weapon) allowing for easier building and if you're not Dual Wielding, chances are your damage is taking a notable hit.  Shippunjari insures you'll always get damage in, which is nice if used with a slow job, Transcience is handy for giving you a physical defense move that can be used the same time as brave, as well as outright evade specific nuisances like the Dragon Breath Attacks, Kairai can be used as an alternative to Provoke style moves, to insure a specific character is targetted, and that's basically it.  A solid job overall, thought it is held back by it's weapon ranks since Daggers are the only thing it's good at (second best is Katanas with a B), but a Weapon Lore can help fix that.


If this sounds rushed, that's because it is.  So feel free to set fire to this, rip it apart, and criticize it to all hell, fill in gaps, etc.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 11:01:37 PM by Meeplelard »
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[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2015, 02:50:54 PM »
Final Fantasy Dimensions: Ninja is a Dark Warriors-exclusive job and is the sole reason why Dark Warriors own for physical damage. Dualwield is stupidly good in this game and would be reason enough to invest in this class, but it's also got great stats, a solid varied skillset, and access to Katanas for species-weakness-hitting of all flavors. Also Throw for endgame bosses if you want to hit that sweet 9999 cap from the backrow for a hefty price. They are also great for Fusion Abilities. Pretty much any job you pair with Ninja will get a decent F-Ability to round out your skillset, though you can min-max for better ones, Ninja's almost always a good choice. You might have several Ninja on your Dark Warriors team if you find yourself displeased with any of the other job options. And that's not a bad strategy if you have the Katanas for it.

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2015, 05:12:57 PM »
Dual-Wield is honestly less good in FFD than it often is in FF games (it comes with a damage penalty built in), but it's still good and Ninja still owns due to the speed + useful skillset + shockingly good HP for a ninja. I agree with Djinn that it gives the dark warriors a leg-up in physical bruising just for that (though if that's not enough, Dark Knight and its Backliner ability is also dark-exclusive).

Regarding FF5 Ninja, it should be noted that scrolls are amazingly good. They're a 120-power no-split magic attack gained in World 1. That's stronger than Titan, stronger than split -aga spells, stronger than Wind Slash... i.e. stronger than anything against multiple enemies until World 3 (where high-end summons are better), and you get them in three elemental flavours. Running off ninja magic stat tempers them some, but they're still very good even then for a while, and the twinking possibilities, i.e. any magic skill on a ninja, or better yet Throw on a rod-using mage, push them into crazy good territory. The cost is pretty negligible, too (by contrast, shuriken-types are overpriced and not very useful as such).

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Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple's Final Fantasy Class (and others) Analysis
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2015, 10:59:29 PM »
Interestingly, I thought I acknowledged Scrolls in my rant, but apparently I didn't!  Was definitely thinking about them when writing it, but given I was writing it in a hurry, probably thought "Already covered" when I apparently didn't.  No real excuse other than negligence.  I'll edit that in at some point, because yeah, really should have been there and I had full intention of at least giving it a nod.

I did mention "Throw does really nice damage" on occasion, which perhaps at the time I was thinking that it was an umbrella that scrolls fall under but you're right in that Scrolls deserve special acknowledgment.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A