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Author Topic: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.  (Read 991 times)

SnowFire

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Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« on: February 26, 2015, 07:47:41 AM »
Just a quick mini-topic to pass the week o' downtime between Futurama & CKDL.  I largely used Futurama leftover noms that didn't get in to populate this.  Also shameless favoritism of Child of Light as reasonably well-played newish blood that hasn't been in a lot of tournies yet.

Óengus (Child of Light) - CoL's resident tanking expert.  Occasionally kisses you with Death.
Norah (Child of Light) - CoL's resident speed expert.  Occasionally kisses you with water (but not in this form).
Lion (Wizard of Oz) - Coward who Lion Dashes away from his opponents...  right?
Leo (Lunar 2) - Was traditionally a DL Heavy, would be interested to see how he does vs. Middles.

Oengus vs. Kraken (FF1)
Oengus vs. Garnet (FF9)
Oengus vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Oengus vs. Starraptor (Pokemon)
Oengus vs. Gafgarion (FFT)
Oengus vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Oengus vs. Norris (CC)
Oengus vs. October (CSTW)
Oengus vs. Alexia (WAXF)
Oengus vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Oengus vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)
Oengus vs. Rudo (PS2)
Oengus vs. Lenora (FF4TAY)


Norah vs. Kraken (FF1)
Norah vs. Garnet (FF9)
Norah vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Norah vs. Starraptor (Pokemon)
Norah vs. Gafgarion (FFT)
Norah vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Norah vs. Norris (CC)
Norah vs. October (CSTW)
Norah vs. Alexia (WAXF)
Norah vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Norah vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)
Norah vs. Rudo (PS2)
Norah vs. Lenora (FF4TAY)


Lion vs. Kraken (FF1)
Lion vs. Garnet (FF9)
Lion vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Lion vs. Starraptor (Pokemon)
Lion vs. Gafgarion (FFT)
Lion vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Lion vs. Norris (CC)
Lion vs. October (CSTW)
Lion vs. Alexia (WAXF)
Lion vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Lion vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)
Lion vs. Rudo (PS2)
Lion vs. Lenora (FF4TAY)


Leo vs. Kraken (FF1)
Leo vs. Garnet (FF9)
Leo vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Leo vs. Starraptor (Pokemon)
Leo vs. Gafgarion (FFT)
Leo vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Leo vs. Norris (CC)
Leo vs. October (CSTW)
Leo vs. Alexia (WAXF)
Leo vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Leo vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)
Leo vs. Rudo (PS2)
Leo vs. Lenora (FF4TAY)

superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 11:46:49 AM »
Leo vs. Kraken (FF1)- Defense shuts down Soul Blade and Kraken outslugs otherwise.
Leo vs. Garnet (FF9)- Status.
Leo vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Leo vs. Gafgarion (FFT)- Should overwhelm Gaffy's healing.
Leo vs. Red XIII (FF7)- Being faster tips it? Leo might well tank two Red turns, but that lurking threat of a limit is a big problem.  It's possible Earth Prayer could tip things, but I recall Lunar 2 buffs not lasting long.
Leo vs. Norris (CC)
Leo vs. October (CSTW)- Don't think Leo manages a OHKO here.
Leo vs. Alexia (WAXF)- Should drop Alexia to a 3HKO thanks to durability/draining, which is enough.
Leo vs. Kyle (Lunar)- Better slugger.
Leo vs. Rudo (PS2)- Better slugger.
Leo vs. Lenora (FF4TAY)- Should win if not OHKOed.


Leo's a bit underwhelming
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2015, 07:54:25 PM »
Óengus vs. Kraken (FF1) - Both 3HKO each other, Kraken is faster. So it goes.
Óengus vs. Garnet Til Alexandros XVII (FF9) - Blind on Óengus is kinda ugly and that's turn one. That said, she can vie for other winning status stuff, since Óengus has nothing decisive turn one and Garnet's obviously faster.
Óengus vs. Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) - :arnaud:
Óengus vs. Staraptor (Pokemon) - Óengus 2HKOs and there's not much Staraptor can do to ultimately fall to Kategida Claws, since it like 4-5HKOs back. Double Team is a cute idea, but that'd -definitely- require Roost to pay off.
Óengus vs. Gaff Gafgarion (FFT) - I think opening with Armor of Titans is a good way to edge out a win here, since Gaffy -6HKOs- at base and buffing makes his healing frankly awful. Óengus's glad he's not all that slow in practice.
Óengus vs. Red XIII (FF7) - EDIT: Yeah, if Quake on his Kategida Claw path sucks, Óengus has no business winning against Red.
Óengus vs. Norris (CC) - Outslugs.
Óengus vs. October (CSTW) - Laying the death smackdown.
Óengus vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius (WAXF) - EDIT: hey, Alexia has decent evade, right. It just so rarely matters given her build.
Óengus vs. Kyle (Lunar) - Yeah, just overall superior.
Óengus vs. Rudolf Steiner (PS2) - Rudo 4HKOs, but so does Óengus and Rudo goes first. See Kraken, really.

4-7. Pretty clearly Middle, I think. The Heavies mopped the floor with him and he didn't solo the lower division or anything.

Norah vs. Kraken - Well, Norah gets 3HKOed by Kraken, goes first... EDIT: holy, her speed game's crazier than I thought. Sure, I'll bite.
Norah vs. Garnet Til Alexandros XVII - Norah -may- be fractionally faster, but Blind being turn one badly screws up her game (FF9 Blind is crazy potent, something like 25% hit rate?) and the fact she's unlikely to keep Garnet from getting at least two turns. She needs too much setup to really get her game going.
Norah vs. Arnaud G. Vasquez - Hey look, they sorta play a similar game. That said, Arnaud's evasion alone makes Norah cry and Dispel/Shut Out/Slow Down make this all the more problematic for her. tl;dr :arnaud:
Norah vs. Staraptor - I -think-. Staraptor doesn't have a very good answer for her speed game (once again, Double Team is cute but ultimately insufficient).
Norah vs. Gaff Gafgarion - I think Gaff -5HKOs- Norah. That uh gives her a -lot- of time to overwhelm him.
Norah vs. Red XIII - I'm not sure how I feel about CoL paralysis bypassing immunity (likely don't see it as unimmunable, see Kraken), but it might not matter anyway? Red goes first and she can't avoid his L2, which does nasty things.
Norah vs. Norris - Norris not very good.
Norah vs. October - Instant death.
Norah vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Alexia needs to open with Status Lock just to avoid getting completely crippled by Lull and she -3HKOs- Norah anyway. The speed split post-Quicken remains ugly as hell, which means Alexia gets pretty badly outraced (don't think Alexia evade is enough here).
Norah vs. Kyle - Norah kinda feasts on people slower than her who need to set up in order to look remotely scary. Lull => Quicken => ohgod stop pelting me
Norah vs. Rudolf Steiner (PS2) - This is rather similar to Kraken vs. Norah... but Rudo has no resistance to Paralysis at all. I think this tips the scales here.

7-4. Never had a chance against the Heavies, but not a bad showing against the Middles. Basically, anyone who needs three or more turns to put her down is in for a world of hurt unless they cheese her offense (see :arnaud:), and she has good enough stats to make the average slugger need at least -four- turns to accomplish that. Her speed game isn't quite overwhelming, but it is quite fun.

Lion vs. Kraken - Lion can stave off a 2HKO with D-Formation, but can't really do much more than that. Hitting the wrong defensive stat is a bummer.
Lion vs. Garnet Til Alexandros XVII - Lion can realistically two-round Garnet, but that doesn't really matter. Blind alone utterly wrecks him and her resources clearly hold out longer than his.
Lion vs. Arnaud G. Vasquez - :arnaud:
Lion vs. Staraptor - I was beginning to wonder when the weird minutiae fights with Lion would begin and here they are. Well, for starters, D-Formation is pretty damned bad against Staraptor and Elements arguably force Staraptor into Close Combat shenanigans, which is -also- bad... but Double Team matters considerably more here, since it also catches Half-life. So, it kinda depends on whether Staraptor can seal the deal in time, since its durability also sucks (Lion two-rounds that without much fuss) and any damage it receives sticks. EDIT: sure, burping Elfboy.
Lion vs. Gaff Gafgarion - D-Formation => spam Half-Life until a closing Lion Dash. The minor evade might prove an issue, but I think this works.
Lion vs. Red XIII - Lion can't even dodge a level 1 and Lunatic High utterly rips him apart.
Lion vs. Norris - SOMEONE WHO GETS WRECKED BY BOTH D-FORMATION AND ELEMENTS HMMMM I WONDER
Lion vs. October - Oh look, someone slower than Lion. War Cry => Half-life until a closing Lion Dash seals the deal.
Lion vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Alexia has to open with Status Lock once again (hello, War Cry!), which is a bad start. Since Lion only needs a -single- Half-life to kick Alexia into KO range and she almost misses a 3HKO (sorta overshot his pdur post-D-Formationon Lion after D-Formation, though not by -too- much) this is an opening turn she can hardly afford.
Lion vs. Kyle - People slower than Lion vs. War Cry, the movie. Kyle could attempt shenanigans with the Wind Sword here I guess, but this just makes his damage kinda suck and get him into being outpaced by D-Formation and Half-life anyway.
Lion vs. Rudolf Steiner - Well, Rudo goes first and mocks D-Formation. So, uh, Lion needs to land -at least- two Half-lifes and a non-minimum variance Lion Dash to beat Rudo here. The odds of him landing -four- hits among Half-lifes and Lion Dashes (ignoring Lion Dash variance) are somewhere in the realm of 31%, I think. Given that, I don't believe his odds of landing at least the three hits he needs in the way he needs are good enough either.

5-6. Yup. Man, is Lion a weird dueller. The buffing, off the double-acting, ends up a lot more useful than it'd seem (see how many of his winning matches hinged on one of D-Formation and Elements helping him out) and even the low-speed spoiling saw use here. If only his actual offense had less accuracy problems and he had better stats, those two things pretty much condemn him to languish in Middle forever while sporting a Heavy-level skillset.

Well, Leo I'll do mostly out of curiosity due to how -different- he ends up from EBC in EBO. In EBO, he has Hiro's stats and his draining, while inferior in damage, is -vastly- better as healing - being near full healing against average defenses. His statusblocking draw is also far better, as EBO has storebought accessories for all in-game status along with status immunities scattered among equipment. His best damage is also his -basic physical-, which is kinda bad news, given how it's outpaced by Jean's physical and Hiro's Poe Sword.

Leo vs. Kraken - Against -that- defense, Leo's healing is junk - at best, it avoids a 2HKO and Leo doesn't have the punch to 3HKO back if he uses the draining either.
Leo vs. Garnet Til Alexandros XVII - Leo's offensive problems get to shine here once again. Draining is a nice thought, but he can't deal with Garnet's ID and shouldn't 2HKO her either even if he's faster.
Leo vs. Arnaud G. Vasquez - :arnaud:
Leo vs. Starraptor - The draining works here mostly due to Staraptor's sketchy offense. Once again, he takes a long time to get started and damage dealt by Leo sticks.
Leo vs. Gaff Gafgarion - Leo's draining is better, but his offense is comparable. Finite vs. infinite draining ends up poorly for the finite one.
Leo vs. Red XIII - Leo's not very likely to avoid a limit, really.
Leo vs. Norris - Norris really not that great.
Leo vs. October - Death.
Leo vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Alexia might not 2HKO Leo, which is bad juju when she can't outpace the draining as it stands.
Leo vs. Kyle - Draining.
Leo vs. Rudolf Steiner - Draining!

5-6. Draining as your main game is ultimately sorta underwhelming a strategy if you don't have useful backups. Leo's nice equipment draw also didn't matter in this pool.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 07:51:11 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2015, 04:32:43 AM »
Óengus vs. Red XIII (FF7) - What is the damage on Quake off the default setup, Dhyer? This is pretty much what I think the fight hinges on, since I think Óengus definitely survives three Red turns.

Probably worse than his damage on Kategida Cleave since it doesn't go down the Quake path at all.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 06:59:21 AM »
I don't let CoL PCs fuck around with their builds between fights, same with FE8/etc. and other completely irrevocable decisions.

Oengus vs. Kraken (FF1): Kinda similar in their games. Kraken's faster, though, and kills in one less hit to me as well (damage edge is notably greater than Oengus' durability edge).
Oengus vs. Garnet (FF9): This feels like a horrific curbstomp.
Oengus vs. Arnaud (WA4): Holy shit, why is someone nowhere near the Heavy border being fed to Arnaud?
Oengus vs. Starraptor (Pokemon): Staraptor can do... 37% to both itself and Oengus with Brave Bird, or 24% (with downsides) using Close Combat, or 19% with Aerial Ace. Endeavor's first turn also helps (25%). Oengus... just plain 4HKOs at base, thanks to Intimidate. Staraptor does have a 5-4... but Oengus should land a knockback before that happens (or ID, which is obviously worse), so it's not relevant. Still, it's a long fight... so could Growl help? Nah, not really, it's just a trade of turns. Staraptor just doesn't seem able to win in less than 5 turns, Endeavour is just innately playing catchup. There's Agility, but again that takes too long to pay off. Staraptor -could- win this, but the odds feel against.
Oengus vs. Gafgarion (FFT): Gaf draining all day long is kinda bad news, and ID is out, so delay is less hypable than above, too. Yeah, there's armour of titans, which reduces Gaf to a mere 6HKO, but Oengus still struggles against the draining. He will kill on his fifth turn if he never misses and isn't doubled by then, AND Gaf is less than 1.14 PCHP. Gaf scaling is murky, but I really doubt all of those are the case.
Oengus vs. Red XIII (FF7): Red is faster, Stardust Ray + 2 physicals is fatal, and Oengus isn't dodging Stardust Ray.
Oengus vs. Norris (CC): 3HKOs, isn't 3HKOed.
Oengus vs. October (CSTW): Death.
Oengus vs. Alexia (WAXF): Alexia... does indeed 3HKO. Oengus gets three turns since lolAlexia speed (I think? Might have to doublecheck due to Strong Heart), but it doesn't matter since Alexia's got enough evade to dodge one attack out of three.
Oengus vs. Kyle (Lunar): As with Norris and Staraptor, Oengus tends to match up well with these pure slugging physical middles. In Kyle's case it's especially egregious as Oengus looks better at everything, even speed.
Oengus vs. Lenora (FF4TAY): 2HKOs. Leonara is so much slower that she only has time for Confuse before bieng instant doubled (-_-). Now, confuse is pretty great! Let's assume it hits. Oengus hits himself... but provided he doesn't ID himself, he easily 3-2's and finishes the job. Never mind. Except... wait, missed Blink, Leonora can cast that and survive. It's still really ugly because she'll have to keep on casting it, but she should sneak in the odd extra turn this way and heal, then sneak in another and land mini or something.


Norah vs. Kraken (FF1): Norah 6HKOs, Kraken 3HKOs. But... that speed game. After the opening Lull/Kraken physical trade, she should have little problem tripleturning constantly if I'm reading things right (Charm Time + that level of speed debuff = yikes). Which means she gets in her six hits before Kraken gets two more, and that's disregarding the fact that to me paralysis kicks in on turn 5 so she only needs 5 turns.
Norah vs. Garnet (FF9): She's not stopping Garnet from getting two kicks at the Odin can.
Norah vs. Arnaud (WA4): Heh, well, these two are kinda similar, with the super-potent slows and all. It's possible that Norah can claim the speed advantage here, due to Quick (depending on how it interacts with Arnaud's slow) and Charm Time, but unfortunately for her she'll never kill ever because of Illusion.
Norah vs. Starraptor (Pokemon): Again, Norah only has a 6HKO here. But again, slow/charm time shenanigans kinda wreck. But Staraptor can stack Agility to escape slow... Agility, Lull, Agility, Quick or something... Norah still gets more turns after that, but is it enough? Probably not, honestly. Staraptor's damage pretty much all has some sort of problem, same with Oengus. 3HKOing with Brave Bird while two of those damage itself is the way to go, I guess, but Norah just needs to get in four attacks before then... and yeah she should manage that.
Norah vs. Gafgarion (FFT): Yeah all the turn shenanigans make Gaf's draining far too rare. He only 4HKOs, even worse than Kraken, which gives her a ludicrous amount of time to power through the draining, paralyse him, get through whatever modest shield hype I consider, etc.
Norah vs. Red XIII (FF7): While Norah can tank and blitz out Stardust Ray... her damage is bad enough that Red gets off Earth Rave, and she can't survive that + Red's opening physical.
Norah vs. Norris (CC): Um yeah this tier of slugger does not scare Norah at all, Norris is just worse than Kraken against fighters.
Norah vs. October (CSTW): Death.
Norah vs. Alexia (WAXF): Alexia misses the 2HKO. That's that.
Norah vs. Kyle (Lunar): See Kraken/Norris.
Norah vs. Lenora (FF4TAY): So, Leonora is so slow and Norah's game so silly that she can use Lull then get two more turns before Leonora's first. Even worse, in order for Leonara to charge anything useful besides Blink, Norah will get her third attack in, which is fatal. Blink would wall Norah except she gets fifty million turns so hahaha no.


Lion vs. Kraken (FF1): Kraken 2HKOs (D-Formation doesn't slow this down) and laughs at Lion's tricks/physical slugging.
Lion vs. Garnet (FF9): Blind sure.
Lion vs. Arnaud (WA4): Illusion.
Lion vs. Starraptor (Pokemon): Lion needs five attacks to kill here, so three turns. Unfortunately for Lion, Staraptor has a 4-3. Lion can open with D-Formation, at least. Staraptor wants to go for big damage fast to make gravity worse anyway, so open with Brave Bird to rip off half of Lion's HP (and do 23% to self but whatever). D-Formation then kicks in. Staraptor can still kill in two more attacks, if the first is Brave Bird or Close Combat. So... Lion only gets in three attacks. He's actually very close to winning, but I think he just falls short.
Lion vs. Gafgarion (FFT): D-Formation is obviously a big help. Gafgarion still kills in four shots, overall, so Lion gets in five attacks. One of those will probably miss, let's call it four. That would be enough if Gafgarion didn't drain, but since he does, I have to think Gaf takes it.
Lion vs. Red XIII (FF7): Red is faster, is getting some sort of decent limit, and hell is close to winning without one.
Lion vs. Norris (CC): Yeah, Lion's type of opponent.
Lion vs. October (CSTW): EDIT: War Cry.
Lion vs. Alexia (WAXF): Alexia does actually 3HKO after D-Formation by my numbers... but uh yeah needing to open with Status Lock is very bad. Even worse, Lion could have a 4-3.
Lion vs. Kyle (Lunar): I think.
Lion vs. Lenora (FF4TAY): Lion can't quite kill her instantly, but thanks to hitting twice he doesn't need to worry about Blink, and he can use Alert + opening damage to set up a kill on his second turn while warding off any status. He also 3-2's any status options, as icing.

Leo: about average damage, drains 20% HP, 1.31/1.10 durability, 87% speed.

Leo vs. Kraken (FF1): Leo manages a 4HKO here, thankfully for him. Kraken is faster, though, and 3HKOs... even after two shots of draining, in fact. So uh not that close.
Leo vs. Garnet (FF9): Yeah, no.
Leo vs. Arnaud (WA4): On the plus side, Leo both ignores evade and might well 2HKO! On the minus side, slow/ID shenanigans wreck him.
Leo vs. Starraptor (Pokemon): Leo 4HKOs. Staraptor wants to Agility then constantly double before this happens, that gives it six attacks which should be more than enough even with some draining slowing it down.
Leo vs. Gafgarion (FFT): Kinda similar, but Gafgarion's draining restores more of his own HP, and he's faster. He's probably somewhat less durable but not by enough to matter.
Leo vs. Red XIII (FF7): Stardust Ray + the followup physical would kill Leo even at full HP.
Leo vs. Norris (CC): Norris would 3HKO if draining weren't in play, but it is, so it's a 4HKO instead. Meanwhile Leo 3HKOs, and isn't 4-3'd. Poor Norris, he actually has a borderline 2HKO to me against average, but this entire field is above.
Leo vs. October (CSTW): Yup.
Leo vs. Alexia (WAXF): Alexia 3HKOs through the draining, and Leo misses a 3-2 to reach the 3HKO first. Close in a number of ways, but the result is clear.
Leo vs. Kyle (Lunar): These two are kinda similar outside the fact that one drains...
Leo vs. Lenora (FF4TAY): Leonara... needs Silence to be turn 1, or Berserk to be turn 1 and for Leo to not kill her with a Soul Blade + two physicals. Leo's MDef is bad enough that I have to think silence probably is turn 1... although Leo does get in two physical attacks again before her next turn. That's not enough, though, and she can heal from there. Close.

Norah 7-4. Yikes, the turn output is pretty crazy. Possibly a touch overrated in this field because she faced only one of the things which can spoil her game utterly (limits), but counters similarly wreck her. Her statuses not being immunable to me helps a fair deal.
Lion 5-6. Weirdo. I'm not super-impressed by how slow his offence comes out and how spoilable it is, but he has some tricks at least. He'll get some fun matches in the division, but certainly isn't championship material.
Oengus 3-8. He's decent enough at his one dimension, but the DL has shown time and again that this style of dueller isn't that great. Status, evasion, counters (which notably weren't an issue in this field), or various other tricks, he's not hard too deal with.
Leo 2-9. Ugh. He seems like he should be a bit better than this, but being even kinda slow with no status protection and needing 3 turns to beat most of the division just isn't good. He should never be in danger of downgrading to Light, I don't think, but he's never going to do too much damage in Middle.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 06:17:25 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2015, 07:10:26 AM »
Oengus vs. Kraken (FF1)- Kraken. Pdur=the one thing early DoS bosses have going
Oengus vs. Garnet (FF9)- Garnet
Oengus vs. Arnaud (WA4)- Arnaud
Oengus vs. Gafgarion (FFT)- Oengus
Oengus vs. Red XIII (FF7)- Oengus
Oengus vs. Norris (CC)- Oengus
Oengus vs. Alexia (WAXF)- Oengus. Alexia won't even 3HKO in all situations (I take +6 weapons, but with 25% stat boosts to core stats to match in game. Basically comes out like the topic...minus less Clarissa shafting. Alexia barely 3HKOs, so that's enough)
Oengus vs. Kyle (Lunar)- Oengus
Oengus vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)- Oengus. Turn 2HKOs, Sheena needs 3. Sheena is also a very risky choice, given that whole "Light to most"
Oengus vs. Rudo (PS2)- Rudo. ITD saves the day here.

Norah vs. Kraken (FF1)- Kraken
Norah vs. Garnet (FF9)- Garnet
Norah vs. Arnaud (WA4)- Arnaud
Norah vs. Gafgarion (FFT)- Norah
Norah vs. Red XIII (FF7)- Red. Yeah, instant turn makes this easy so that one doesn't think to think on Paralysis
Norah vs. Norris (CC)- Norah
Norah vs. Alexia (WAXF)- Norah
Norah vs. Kyle (Lunar)- Norah
Norah vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)- Norah. Sheena needs at least 3 turns. Slow, and 3 smacks later...
Norah vs. Rudo (PS2)- Norah

Lion vs. Kraken (FF1)- Kraken
Lion vs. Garnet (FF9)- Garnet
Lion vs. Arnaud (WA4)- Arnaud versus three physical fighters!
Lion vs. Gafgarion (FFT)- Lion, I think
Lion vs. Red XIII (FF7)- Red
Lion vs. Norris (CC)- Lion
Lion vs. Alexia (WAXF)- Lion
Lion vs. Kyle (Lunar)- Lion. In fairness, Kyle isn't really a Middle.
Lion vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)- Gut reaction of Lion. D-Formation, Sheena needs a turn to get good
Lion vs. Rudo (PS2)- Rudo. That ITE is nice again.

Leo vs. Kraken (FF1)- Kraken
Leo vs. Garnet (FF9)- Garnet
Leo vs. Arnaud (WA4)- Arnaud. Sorry, 4! fighters
Leo vs. Gafgarion (FFT)- You know...I'm not touching this one.
Leo vs. Red XIII (FF7)- Red. Leo is not a limit avoider.
Leo vs. Norris (CC)- Leo. Don't think speed is enough to tip this.
Leo vs. Alexia (WAXF)- Leo. Alexia needs to get 3 turns before Leo gets 2 to put him away.
Leo vs. Kyle (Lunar)- Leo
Leo vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)- Abstain. Not enough Sheena combo knowledge here.
Leo vs. Rudo (PS2)- Leo. The slight healing lets him take 4 Rudo hits (barely; counting Kain as doing his in game damage). Rudo can't take 4 hits from Leo; gut is that Leo is not slow enough to be double before then

Oengus- 6-4. Clear Middle, but I would say that the Middles I knew here are...bad (Very 1D gorpu with Norris, Alexia, Kyle, Rudo...etc). Also, I'm now not 100% sure that Quake shouldn't be his default. It's slower...but more damaging. Hmm.
Norah 6-4
Lion 5-5
Leo 4-4 (Leo is noted very impressive, but again, this 1D middle portion plays to his strengths very well. Moreso that Oengus, since Oengus can deal with healers. Leo can't. But no Middle healers here.
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2015, 05:22:07 PM »
For Snow: I'm not certain if it will tip any matches, but it's obvious from your comments that you have missed the fact that Staraptor has Intimidate, which makes it rather a lot better against fighters, i.e. this entire field.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2015, 05:54:36 PM »
Yeah, I actually did, but I also realized it actually -wouldn't- tip any fights in practice. You covered Óengus better than I did, Lion's mostly spamming Half-life and both Norah and Leo can make do anyway due to how their games fly.

EDIT: Also, October over Lion? I guess his RNG game -is- chancy enough that you could see it happening (if she gets one turn, it's game unless he has Alert up, and even if he does, 50% odds that he just dies anyway), but her durability+being slower than him gives her a lot of trouble.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 05:58:56 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2015, 06:15:55 PM »
Somehow forgot War Cry there yeah, I don't know either.

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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 07:42:43 PM »
Oengus vs. Kraken (FF1) - Kraken has defense at least.
Oengus vs. Garnet (FF9) - well this is vaguely horrific
Oengus vs. Arnaud (WA4) - not as horrific as this though
Oengus vs. Starraptor (Pokemon) - Yep.
Oengus vs. Gafgarion (FFT) - Eh sure.
Oengus vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Oengus vs. Norris (CC)
Oengus vs. October (CSTW)
Oengus vs. Alexia (WAXF) - Yeah I can't say I respect Alexia evasion that much.
Oengus vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Oengus vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)


Norah vs. Kraken (FF1) - The potential speed split is just too much.
Norah vs. Garnet (FF9)
Norah vs. Arnaud (WA4) - Have fun chasing shadows
Norah vs. Starraptor (Pokemon)
Norah vs. Gafgarion (FFT)
Norah vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Norah vs. Norris (CC)
Norah vs. October (CSTW)
Norah vs. Alexia (WAXF)
Norah vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Norah vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)


Lion vs. Kraken (FF1) - Lion has issues against fighters.
Lion vs. Garnet (FF9) - and status
Lion vs. Arnaud (WA4) - and :arnaud:
Lion vs. Starraptor (Pokemon) - Well at least this is close.
Lion vs. Gafgarion (FFT) - Have to think the minor evade tilts this.
Lion vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Lion vs. Norris (CC)
Lion vs. October (CSTW) - rar
Lion vs. Alexia (WAXF)
Lion vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Lion vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia) - Eh sure.

Leo vs. Kraken (FF1) - uh
Leo vs. Garnet (FF9) - uh
Leo vs. Arnaud (WA4) - :arnaud:
Leo vs. Starraptor (Pokemon)
Leo vs. Gafgarion (FFT)
Leo vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Leo vs. Norris (CC)
Leo vs. October (CSTW) - uh huh
Leo vs. Alexia (WAXF) - No 3-2 here I'm afraid.
Leo vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Leo vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia) - pass

DragonKnight Zero

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2015, 01:31:04 AM »
Leo vs. Kraken (FF1)
Leo vs. Garnet (FF9) Mini
Leo vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Leo vs. Starraptor (Pokemon)
Leo vs. Gafgarion (FFT)  Earth Prayer has a use here to reduce Gaf's draining.  If Lunar 2 defense buffs weren't so awful, it would be more clearcut.  Gaf's speed advantage is enough for me.
Leo vs. Red XIII (FF7) Unable to chip past limit
Leo vs. Norris (CC)
Leo vs. October (CSTW)
Leo vs. Alexia (WAXF)
Leo vs. Kyle (Lunar) Better at smashing
Leo vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)
Leo vs. Rudo (PS2)  I allow Crescen Gear so it comes down to how much credit one gives Leo's damage output and how one scales Rudo.  At a fixed 60 HP healing, higher level Rudo does worse.  Relying on physicals against the cast member with the best physical durability tends to not work out well.  Giving it to Rudo stalling out Leo's MP due to speed superiority though arguable.
Leo vs. Lenora (FF4TAY)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 07:59:09 AM by DragonKnight Zero »

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2015, 12:30:45 AM »
Dhyer: Pyro nom'd Sheena in Middle in the Futurama topic, and more generally I think a Light/Middle borderliner is probably fine for such a topic, get a decent range & all.

Oengus vs. Kraken (FF1) - I'll trust Elfmath.
Oengus vs. Garnet (FF9)
Oengus vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Oengus vs. Starraptor (Pokemon) - Looks more like a 3HKO for Oengus to me which makes this a lot easier, but maybe I'm underrating Intimidate. 
Oengus vs. Gafgarion (FFT) - Kiss of Death, if nothing else.  Where's the ID resistance hype coming from?  Don't see it on his boss set, and I thought Judo Shirt / Angel Ring were both way later than early Chapter 2.
Oengus vs. Red XIII (FF7) - Oengus is weirdly close to tanking Stardust Ray + 2x physical at least.
Oengus vs. Norris (CC)
Oengus vs. October (CSTW)
Oengus vs. Alexia (WAXF) - Alexia only barely gets the *3HKO* here (under +6 weapons, she misses with Pyro's original weapon levels!) so yeah.  The fact that she quite possibly 4HKOs makes me inclined to lean against evasion hype.
Oengus vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Oengus vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia) - I think I'd be willing to hype Sheena's infinite combo against slower characters, especially those who can be stun-locked in their own game, and not allow it vs. speedier duelers.  So it'd totally own Aurora and maybe work here, but not be useful vs. the likes of BoF1 Karn.


Norah vs. Kraken (FF1) - Yeah the turnsplit from Lull/Haste/Charm Time is absolutely insane, and Kraken doesn't 2HKO before the madness starts.  Don't think Petrify proc hype is even needed.
Norah vs. Garnet (FF9)
Norah vs. Arnaud (WA4) - The turnsplit does favor Norah a good deal, and Arnaud needs to spend turn 2 on Shut Out, not Illusion, lest Norah just wander out of the Slow Down / Illusioned hex...  but turn 3 on Illusion is still just fine.
Norah vs. Starraptor (Pokemon) - Aerial Ace doesn't kill fast enough, Brave Bird gets the raptor killed too soon.
Norah vs. Gafgarion (FFT)
Norah vs. Red XIII (FF7) - Uh, not on board for Earth Rave hype, but physical + Stardust Ray still seems serviceable per Jo'ou.
Norah vs. Norris (CC)
Norah vs. October (CSTW)
Norah vs. Alexia (WAXF) - The speed split is UGLY.
Norah vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Norah vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia) - And here's a match where I wouldn't hype the infinite combo!


Leo vs. Kraken (FF1)
Leo vs. Garnet (FF9)
Leo vs. Arnaud (WA4) - Not inclined to hype the ID, but I think Arnaud can blast-blitz Leo down post Slow Down?  Especially if allowed to spend a turn moving to an elemental hex.
Leo vs. Starraptor (Pokemon) - Yeah, Agility isn't so amazing for me, so I don't think Staraptor is getting the extra turns fast enough.
Leo vs. Gafgarion (FFT) - Sure, I'll tiebreak on Gaffy being faster.
Leo vs. Red XIII (FF7)
Leo vs. Norris (CC)
Leo vs. October (CSTW)
Leo vs. Alexia (WAXF) - I suppose.
Leo vs. Kyle (Lunar)
Leo vs. Sheena (Tales of Symphonia) - No idea, Sheena probably wins with super-combo hype and not otherwise.  Abstain.

Oengus: 5-6
Norah: 7-4
Leo: 3-7

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: All beastmen & women.
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2015, 01:01:35 AM »
Intimidate reduces opponent physical damage by 1/3. Oengus does 45% to average, which is 48% to Staraptor before Intimidate, and 32% after.

All FFT guests and bosses are immune to fatal status. If you throw that out then yeah technically has own class has no ID resistance (so if he became a PC he'd lose it), but in-game he can never be IDed, and these days that counts for more to me.

I will note that Alexia has 23% evade by the +6 stat topic (where she definitely 3HKOs Oengus). If you want to use Pyro's old numbers as an argument for her not 3HKOing, then note that by them she has 30% instead which should absolutely evade one attack in three. (Even 23% is good enough for me as it works out to a 54% chance to dodge at least once, while 30% would translate to 66%.) There are other variables in there, admittedly - Oengus could activate ID or a knockback at a time when it is meaningful, but Alexia could also counter. And depending on how you factor in evasion Oengus might win anyway (e.g. if you apply hit% directly to damage dealt, then all Alexia evade does is turn Oengus' high 3HKO into a lower one). So it is close. Just any hype for Alexia failing to 3HKO should really make her evasion quite reliable.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
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